Friday: Lance
BANNED FROM CYCLING FOR LIFE. Who would have ever dreamed we’d hear that phrase in connection with the most accomplished cyclist — and one of the most celebrated American athletes — in history?
But that’s the story today, as Lance Armstrong drops his fight against doping charges by declining to enter the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency’s arbitration process. The organization is stripping him of his seven Tour de France titles.
“There comes a point in every man’s life when he has to say, `Enough is enough.’ For me, that time is now,” Armstrong said.
“I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999,” he said. “The toll this has taken on my family and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today — finished with this nonsense.”
USADA took that as an admission of guilt.
Banned from cycling for life.
DID THEY HAVE IT ON IN YOUR OFFICE? I know they did in mine, but that probably makes sense given that I work in the sports department of a daily newspaper. Every morning during Lance’s historic run, guys on bikes were on our TV. If you’d told me when I was studying to become a journalist that I’d spend mornings watching guys on bikes pedal up mountains, I would have instantly changed my major to Latin. Guys on bikes are not for me.
Yet there we were. And the crazy thing was, we had all kinds of company. Folks from the news department would drop by, or advertising, and they’d all say the same thing: “How’s Lance doin’?” This does not happen any other time outside of the NCAA basketball tournament. This sure as hell doesn’t happen during some cycling race staged halfway across the world.
But it did. And we cheered the valiant Texan who’d beaten the odds, spit in the face of cancer. And now many of us are conflicted: What, exactly, were we cheering?
THERE SEEM TO BE THREE SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT WHEN IT COMES TO LANCE, and only three.
1. Lance cheated, and he’s been lying about it ever since, and every day that he denies it is another day he looks more foolish.
2. Whether Lance cheated or not is completely irrelevant. All the good that he did, the inspiration he provided, the money he raised for cancer research — that’s what Lance is all about, titles or no titles.
3. Lance is innocent. He’s been the target of a witch hunt. He’s passed every drug test. He’s a conquering hero who has become a victim of jealously. Long live Lance, the seven-time champ.
With all due respect, I don’t know how anybody can believe No. 3 any more. It just doesn’t seem possible. Cycling is the dirtiest sport in the world. Everybody cheats. And yet Lance was the one guy who didn’t — AND he beat all the cheaters? Seven times?
Lance tried to frame Thursday’s announcement as one final act of defiance. To me, it’s another serious blow to his legacy. Entering the arbitration process would have been Lance’s final opportunity to clear his name with USADA. In other words, the end was in sight, regardless of the outcome. He chose not to seize the final opportunity, opting instead to say the same thing he’s been saying all this time: I’m innocent. I’m Lance, remember? Believe me.
Can’t do it. Blame Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Landis, Jones, and the dozens of others who’ve stripped us of naivete. Sorry kids. Superman had help.
TO ME, THERE WAS ONE WAY LANCE COULD HAVE HANDLED THIS that would have been ideal. He could have merged the first two schools of thought with one statement: “I did it. Everybody did it. To keep up with the cheaters, I had to cheat myself. I may not be proud of that now, but I am extremely proud of what my notoriety allowed me to do as far as providing inspiration to cancer victims and what our foundation has done to help those who really need it. Thank you.”
Instead, he goes quietly into the darkness, refusing to put up one last fight, cursing the accusers. Exiled from the sport he somehow got us all to watch.
Banned from cycling for life.
POSTPONED: Was going to give you some good stuff from my highly entertaining conversation with author Chris Colston on the Hokies today, but we’ll do that Monday instead. Look for it then.
DAILY DOUBLE: Still time to hop in and give us the hypothetical Jeopardy! question you would own. Or just check out the funny answers others have given already.
FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS: High school football is back, and so is Robert Anderson’s outstanding predictions column. Check it out here.
NOT SO SPECIAL: UVa tries to straighten out its special teams woes.
IDENTIFY THE MOVIE
“No, Ivan is naturally trained.”
“Then how do you account for his… freakish strength?”
“Like your Popeye. He ate his spinach every day.”
NAME THAT TUNE
Every now and then I get down to the end of the day
And I have to stop and ask myself why I’ve done it
It just seems so useless to have to work so hard
And nothin’ ever really seems to come from it
But then she looks me in the eye and says
“We’re gonna last forever”
And man, you know I can’t begin to doubt it
No, ’cause it just feels so good and so free and so right
I know we ain’t never goin’ to change our minds about it, hey…
August 24, 2012 - 8:47 AM
I agree…it’s hard to believe No. 3 on Lance. I wonder why he suddenly “gave up” on the night that the USADA banned him & stripped his titles —- this is a “chicken and egg” thing to me. Did Lance’s statement about giving up the fight cause USADA to immediately enact a lifetime ban and strip his titles, or did the news that USADA was about to do this cause Lance to take a pre-emptive action to try to “spin” the news cycle? Personally, I think it was the latter, and ESPN bought right in — their news coverage was all about “Lance giving up the fight” (making him look like a victim) rather than about USADA’s actions taken against a cheater.
ROCKY IV (A Philly guy like me has every line in those movies memorized…)
Hey everybody, from now on, we all are going to pretend that Lance never won those titles because he was doping, allegedly, therefore, the public are to refrain from mentioning the titles he won.
I pause for a moment to let that sink in.
How many times have we heard about titles being forcibly vacated due to “cheating” to gain competition advantage? Then we are told to erase from the record book, or to put an asterisk next to the name, and pretend that the title was never won.
There’s only one major problem with that.
The memory eraser that they use in Men in Black movies are the stuff of fiction. That’s right, folks, it’s a figment of imagination. Oh, that movie, Total Recall, where they implant false memory? Stuff of fiction too. Only an expert in mind control and brain washing could pull that kind of stuff, but it takes a lot of time, resources, and effort to pull it off.
So, Lance is still in the winner of 7 Tour de Force, and to hell what the USADA says. Ditto for USC and the Carroll/Bush era who destroyed Oklahoma, but were forced to give up the titles. Same thing for Joe Paterno and his 111 wins.
We are told to forget that it happens.
That is a laugh.
Please, this is not the ideal world we all live in. We don’t live in the land of Oz where the wizard is revealed behind the curtain. We didn’t tumble down the rabbit hole and found ourselves in a world inhabited by walking deck of cards armed with spear or chess pieces that can walk.
The problem is the power that be wants the public to follow suit.
Guess what? We still can think for ourselves! So, go and drink the urine that you said was doped and see if we will do the same.
Here Comes My Girl – Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
Song and movie nailed by 9:16 a.m. Great job, Blog Crowd.
Barry Bonds never tested positive for steroids. Marion Jones never tested positive for steroids.
I have a friend that has never gotten a speeding ticket. But he speeds all the time and is lucky. Never getting caught is not the same as never cheating.
Doping is not the same as steroid use — it involves a complex process of blood transfusions and its benefits for an endurance athlete like a cycler are hard to deny. Either a totally clean Lance Armstrong was 30% better than every other cycler from 1999-2005 (most of whom were doping themselves), or he was doping himself. I think he was doping.
Trevor, welcome to the Penn State fans’ world, where people try to deny history that happened just for the sake of making a point. I’ll give you Lance’s 7 titles if you give me Paterno’s all-time wins lead.
Cyclists is the dirtest sport? Really?
I think baseball is the worst. How many times do we hear of so-so gets caught for doping?
Look, I don’t care about cycling. I don’t pay attention to it. Nothing bores me than to watch them labor up a hill just to be #1 in the world.
I have a problem with organizations forcing the public to pretend nobody won anything after the fact. It’s the most ridiculous form of punishment they can mete out.
I heard the Lance news this morning and had two thoughts. First, this does not surprise me. Second, how do you win the game when the deck is stacked against you.
There is no way that Lance was going to come out of arbitration with a victory. Whether he doped or not, USADA is out to get him. If they are using samples from years ago, why did they wait so long to start this process. If they knew Lance was dirty 10 years ago what took them so long to ban him.
I like the reasoning for the ban too; you won’t defend yourself, so you must be guilty. In this country, people are prsumed innocent until proven guilty. The accused does not have to prove his innocence. The accuser has to prove guilt. Silence is not an admission. It is a right guaranteed by the Constitution.
Unlike some of the other who have been publically tried on this blog and in other places, there is much solid or good evidence against Lance. I agree with Aaron, cycling is full of cheaters and few riders have clean hands. Does that mean Lance doped? Maybe. Odds are he did and he got away with it. But I still wonder that if he did, how did he pull off so many posistive screens when he was tested as frequently has he was?
That should be there isn’t much solid evidence against Lance.
I’ve got a real problem with this “banned for life” thing, and the stripping of 7 Tour wins from soooooo long ago. So what if he is banned, he isn’t racing anymore, anyway. That’s pretty stupid.
First, we’re talking 7 – SEVEN – years of winning the Tour. Can’t anybody come up with some sort of reliable technology to catch a cheat at least 2 or 3 years in? If the sport is that dirty, come up with better ways to nail people quicker. Those pompous, arrogant French are supposed to know everything – then why couldn’t they come up with something to nail him after year #1, or at least year #2?
Second, are they going to put the 7 runners-up to him thru the same process? This late? I doubt it. And, if they did, does the next guy in line get grilled?
Aaron, on your item #3 – did he pass every drug test? If he did, at least as tested, then I do have to buy into that thinking.
I CAN see why he’d give up the fight, because the fight is NEVER going to end until he gives up. Come on, we’re talking 2005. It has been 7 years since his 7th Tour win. That is pretty indicative – the fight is never going to end until he surrenders. He can’t re-pee 7 year old urine.
If cycling is so dirty, and this is all about getting the guy that got everybody else, it reminds me of a scene from “The Sting” where Paul Newman cheats Robert Shaw out of a hand of poker, who was cheating himself, and Shaw’s response to his partner was something along the lines of “am I supposed to accuse him of cheating better than me?” If he is guilty, sounds like the same situation.
Little glitch in all of this – the USADA does not have the authority to remove Armstrong’s name from the titles. That has to be done by the UCI and the Tour De France itself. Admittedly, they will probably take those steps, because the TDF has never been thrilled about an American owning their race so solidly for such a long period of time. Nevertheless, the USADA is pulling an Emmert, only more extreme.
Secondly, had Armstrong stayed retired after 2005, I really think he wouldn’t have been investigated. Like always, an aging athlete’s hubris tarnishes his reputation.
One last thing, the USADA has an eight year time limit on violations, yet they are ‘vacating Armstrong’s victories all the way back to 1999? The math doesn’t compute when they say they researched Armstrong back to 1996, eight years?
Again, had Lance stayed retired, I don’t think they would have bothered.
I don’t think I totally believe #3. But Lance has been convicted only on the testimony of guys who made statements against Lance in exchange for leniency. It does sound somewhat like a witch hunt to me. Look how long they have been trying to prove this and still can not. While I don’t completely believe him there is no physical proof. I honestly think after so many years I would be sick of it too.
In #3, you wrote “he passed every drug test”. Is that true, that he passed every drug test that was administered to him at the time of his victories? If that’s the fact, then I would be one of those leaning toward the opinion he’s a victim of a witch hunt. But if he did pass them all, did he cheat to accomplish that too? If Lance trained hard, won the races and then passed the drug and substance tests that were required of him at the time I’d say it is a definite witch hunt. It would be like trying to strip Jimmie Johnson of his many Nascar titles by saying, “We know Jimmie’s car and equiptment passed post race inspection during his incredible run, but he had to be cheating. Let’s go back and seize all his equiptment and cars from those four years and find something to cry foul over”. If Lance tested clean at the time of those races, I don’t blame him for telling them where to stick it.
He probably cheated, but he also came back from cancer and he beat all the other people who were cheating at the same time. He was the best of the cheaters. Or he knew how to cheat better.
Still, this is one of the the reasons I pay no attention to cycling. It IS the dirtiest sport around.
Agree with AMAC. Say you did it. You won 7 Tours as I will remeber. If as it seems everybody on 2 wheels doing it in my opinion no advantage gained. He was still the best and maybe had the best stuff.(bikes too) Never have seen if every rider tested or just top @ Tour but evrything since has seemed if every winning rider was doping. This after the exposure from Lance says a lot of these people have crashed too many times without helmets.
I think there has always been cheating in sports and will always be. Baseball gets people upset because of the stats being such a meaningful part of the game. In College football it is recruiting. Most people never cared about cheating in NASCAR until it became big nationally. What does cheating mean anyway? Gaining an unfair advantage over somebody or another team or breaking the rules? If a college football team with a huge athletic department budget plays a small school that only has 10 percent of the means of the larger school fair? They will never be on even ground. If an athlete goes to train in the Alps to buildup lung capacity in the thin air is that fair to the guy that lives on the plains in Spain? All sports like to have the image of all things being even in a race or game but they will never be. I doubt cycling is the dirtiest sport. Probably the NFL or MLB is the dirtiest. I guess my point is people are really more upset about the image of an athlete or sport being tarnished. But all this is based on the false image of all things being even when they will never be.
I think what I like least about the current situation with Lance is that he’s been put in a situation where he has to prove his innocence. If the powers-that-be can’t prove that he was guilty of cheating, that should be the end of the story. He might or might not have been clean, but you could say the same thing about all the other racers (well, aside from the ones who DID fail tests!). That’s a good marketing campaign–as if cycling was getting a lot of fans/airplay anyway–vilify one of the few American cycling heroes!
“What does cheating mean anyway? Gaining an unfair advantage over somebody or another team or breaking the rules? If a college football team with a huge athletic department budget plays a small school that only has 10 percent of the means of the larger school fair? They will never be on even ground. If an athlete goes to train in the Alps to buildup lung capacity in the thin air is that fair to the guy that lives on the plains in Spain?”
I don’t think it’s ‘unfair’ for a team to have a bigger budget than another. It may be unfortunate, but it has absolutely nothing to do with fairness. As long as the rules of the game are being followed by both teams, the budget has nothing to do with being fair.
In the other example about the athlete training in the alps… again, this has nothing to do with being fair. If that athlete is willing to put in the time, money, and effort to train that way, then that’s their choice. They aren’t breaking rules. If another athlete can’t afford to train that way, or doesn’t have the time to train that way… again, that’s unfortunate, but it’s not unfair.
I’m not saying that you fall into this category, shaun, but I run into a lot of folks who have the misconception that “fair” means that everyone wins the same amount of times. That’s not what fair means. Fair deals with following the rules. Just because someone puts in more time, more effort, or more funding into practicing and training doesn’t give them an unfair advantage. It may certainly give them an advantage, but that’s not unfair. Everyone that practices and trains for anything does it to get an advantage.
Kobe Bryant is taller than me, and an infinitely better basketball player than me. If I were to play a one-on-one game against him, he would certainly have an endless list of advantages… but nothing about that would be unfair.
I’m still amazed at how much money we waste in this country investigating history. If they spent half as much time into the Kennedy assasination as they have steroid users we would all know that Kennedy is alive an well living on a tropical Island with Elvis. I heard Babe Ruth used to use glue on his bats. What’s next will the USADA have Ruth’s body exhumed to look for the white rubber residue that a good bottle of Elmers leaves behind.
I may be in the minority but I don’t really care if someone cheated 10 years ago. If you didn’t catch them, fix your system to catch the next guy. How in the world can the USADA tell me what a guy had in his body over 10 years ago?
Huntersdad, Lance Armstrong was tested over 500 times, and never failed a test. One of his teammates, Floyd Landis was found to have illegally boosted his testosterone exponentially, and was caught immediately. Now Landis has sent several e-mails claiming to be involved in Armstrong’s alleged cheating for years, all while conveniently avoiding charges on his own by the agency he forwarded these e-mails. The USADA claimed to have examined samples from as far back as 1996, even though their authority only extends back eight years. The USADA claims that Armstrong committed certain acts, while refusing to provide witness names or actual factual evidence.
I could go on, but it seems pointless. Those that always thought Armstrong cheated still do, and those that didn’t, still don’t seem to. And for what purpose? To pretend cycling is clean? Or even relevant outside of western Europe?
Heck, while we’re at it, why not take on some of the legends of US Lacrosse, since it is just about as regional a sport as cycling? I say Jim Brown was dirty, and he used PEDs. If he can’t prove he didn’t, then he’s guilty.
You all are forgetting that the Anti-Doping Agency can say what it likes but the Tour de France has nothing to do whatsoever with them. The Tour and International Cycling is not run by the Anti-Doping Agency and the group that DOES run international cycling already said they couldn’t care less.
I have no idea whether Lance cheated or not. I do know he never tested positive unlike some others. Does it test your mind to think that he, alone among his team, didn’t? Yes. Is that proof? No.
I like proof.
Lance has said that he believes the Anti-Doping Agency is acting out because he has never tested positive and they can’t believe it.
Well, sounds like a witch hunt to me. But even so, the fact that they are taking an action that is not theirs to take has me shaking my head.
Oh, and besides the fact that I typed so fast is used “is” instead of “are” (where is my editor when I need them?) another thing to think about is Lance’s age.
A “ban from cycling” is a joke as he is now too old to compete on the big stages. He is rich (I presume). Opinions on him are locked and not going to change. His influence will not be lessened. His so-called “legacy” won’t be changed either.
The Anti-Doping Agency can take his drop from the fight as an admission of guilt if they want but another way to look at it is Lance saying “You are not relevant enough to me to worry about you anymore”, or, “Any action you take has no impact”. In some ways it is the ultimate insult.
The Agency’s action looks so much like Landis-inspired sour grapes. I think Lance did the right thing on this whether he dopped or not.
From the story I linked: USADA also said it had 10 former Armstrong teammates ready to testify against him. Other than suggesting they include Landis and Tyler Hamilton, both of whom have admitted to doping offenses, the agency has refused to say who they are or specifically what they would say.
Would 10 former teammates lining up against him and presumably all saying the same thing have been considered “proof” to Lance defenders? Maybe it wouldn’t to some, but you could see why Lance opted to avoid that whole process and just say, “Hey, guys, I’m gonna pass on the arbitration deal, but I didn’t do it. Trust me.”
I choose not to.
And I really would prefer that he competed clean but I don’t believe anyone does in that sport. I mean have you actually looked at the toll the Tour takes and what they have to do? It is superhuman.
No I don’t always believe things will be fair or even nor do I expect them to be. But I don’t get the outrage that some people have over cheating especially doping or performance enhancing drugs.
AM, eyewitness accounts are evidence, not proof. Landis and Hamilton, in particular, are thought to be very jealous of Lance. Both felt that they should have led the team at one time or another and that the team, including Lance, should have worked for their victory and fame. Considering the personal animosity that Landis carries on his sleeve it would be short work for an attorney, in court, to get Landis to admit how much he hates Lance and cast doubt on hsi testimony. The other thing is that testimony can be coerced. Landis (and Hamilton) admitted to doping because he failed drug tests.
If you wanted to prasecute this as a crime I believe you waould have to rely on a “proponderance of circumstantial evidence” to convict. This would be interesting as “not ever getting caught” would be construed as evidence of guilt.
Would YOU accept a verdict where “not getting caught – ever” was taken as prooof of guilt?
You can see the conundrum, right?
10 people, former teammated who are nameless, are ready testify. So what? Where’s the smoking gun? Where the damning piece of evidence that USADA have that will, once and for all, prove Armstrong’s innoncence or guilt?
It is basically their words against his.
I’m with OG. This country are master of wasting money, energy, and investigating cases that are 100 years old.
I see it, Zman, I just think we have to ask ourselves: If all these people lining up were going to be lying bastards with an ax to grind, wouldn’t you want to stand before them and expose them as the lying bastards they are? At least try? Sorry, Lance, but don’t give me that you’re “just tired of the whole thing.” That doesn’t pass the smell test. It’s the LAST STEP in the process! This is your career, your legacy, your life’s work. You’re completely, 100 percent clean! You told us so! You’re a victim! Go through with this last step and show the world!
Or not, because maybe it’s best for you if nobody hears the testimony and a decent chunk of the population just goes on believing you’re a superhero.
Even if I give you Landis and Hamilton, which I’m not fully willing to do, it’s hard to give you the other eight.
One last thing: To those who argue doping in cycling is not a big deal, I agree 100 percent. That’s why I proposed Lance just admit the thing and shift the focus of his legacy to his altruistic endeavors, not his cycling triumphs. He chooses to make the doping a big deal by hiding from the last step in the process — a step that I think he knows would damn him.
AMc, having ten witnesses, eight of which you refuse to name, does not mean you had ten people who saw the same alleged illegalities. Landis, a convicted doper, and Hamilton, another convicted doper are the only two named witnesses? Sheesh, how bad could the other guys be that the USADA won’t even offer their names to the accused? When the USADA won’t even offer their supposed evidence to the defense for rebuttal?
Factor in – the USADA does not have a single negative test to offer as evidence. Factor in that the USADA only has authority to investigate back to June 2004, yet has taken the effort to ‘investigate’ back to 1996. Factor in that some of the allegations made against Armstrong were not illegalities in the year the USADA claimed, without providing their evidence, that Armstrong committed the acts. Only years later did the governing bodies decide the actions would not be allowed. Factor in that the USADA has attempted to strip Armstrong of titles bestowed by a governing body that the USADA has no authority to control.
As I said before in this thread, those who always thought Armstrong was guilty still do, and those that didn’t seem to still not. To me, it seems like he’s being railroaded for daring to make a comeback.
It still serves no useful purpose.
I am reminded of a movie, the name escapes me, where the lead character, a man, was pleading with the judges to keep his name clear. The judges refused. In the end, the man gave up, tired of trying to fight to clear his name, and he was only guilty of having an affair with a maid while his wife was gravely sick. He allowed himself to be hung.
This is what the USADA is doing. They are basically crucifying Armstrong because he gave up. Maybe he is finally tired of trying to defend himself, balancing his life with his family, and the foundation. Does that mean he cheated? We don’t know. We may never know.
It’s my understanding that some of his samples from 1999 tested positive for banned substances in 2005 using tests that were not around in 1999. He was offered the chance to allow other samples tested and refused to let them be tested claiming the French had spiked the samples. That basically help open the “can of worms.” The USADA charges came from failed samples taken in 2009 and 2010 and from the testimony of teammates. His defence against the charges were that the USADA doesn’t have juridiction to ban him. Not really the defence you expect from an innocent man.
As far as the French claims it does sound a bit like a witchhunt. I just imagine some Frenchmen sitting around with Lance’s urine in his freezer for years waiting for a test to prove he cheated. I wonder if it was kept next to the ice cream.
The bad thing is that this is hardly the end. I expect all parties involved will now “lawyer up” and fight over the prize money and sponsorship dollars. The ultimate wiiner will be the lawyers.
CR — But you’re making my point for me. If Lance is innocent, he goes through with the process, and he makes USADA look like a ham-and-egg operation that you (and he) purport it is…right? Why is Lance avoiding this golden opportunity to show how flimsy the case is against him, to demonstrate what a witch hunt this is? If Zman is correct, and a lawyer with any talent whatsoever could tear Landis’ credibility asunder, then why not go through with that and make that happen? That’s what you’d want, right?
He doesn’t want to do it. And it ain’t because he’s tired of the whole thing.
AMc, you do realize that paying lawyers to fight the government is not an inexpensive task, right? You do realize that there are appeals allowed to the arbitration process, right? So, it was not going to just end this weekend.
When the USADA does not even provide the names of witnesses, much less their testimony, you do realize this was going to drag on for a while, right? When the USADA does not provide any ‘evidence’ as a basis for their charges, you do realize this was going to drag on for a while, right?
I don’t hold Armstrong blameless, but I do think he’s being punished for succeeding in a dirty sport. I would dearly LOVE to see the actual charges filed against him, if any sports media folks want to show them. I can’t find any evidence they are available to the public. It all seems to be – ‘We’ve got guys who say he’s dirty, and we believe them because they are all dirty…’
Any link to factual evidence, any link to names and the background of the charges being held over the potential witnesses’ heads would be enlightening.
I do realize that. But taken as a whole (with appeals), it is the final fight. You shoot every arrow you have left, you scream “CHARGE!” to your cavalry, and you boldly march into the theater of battle, fully aware that your own blood could be spilled.
Unless you know for a fact it’s a suicide mission.
Totally aside from the current talk, has anyone seen the rumors of the current owners of the Sacramento Kings moving the franchise, and that Virginia Beach is reported to be having a pretty big meeting Tuesday with Comcast & Global Spectrum, about constructing an 18,000 seat arena at the oceanfront and setting up a 25-year lease, naming rights, and TV deal? The Maloofs are denying it, but something tells me that given Sacramento’s refusal to work with them on a new arena that they will be moving somewhere. And that somewhere may well end up in Virginia…but given past failed attempts to lure pro sports to Hampton Roads, I remain dubious for now…
http://insidebiz.com/news/sources-sacramento-kings-may-move-virginia-beach-arena-deal-works
There’s the article for one of the places I saw this…
http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/sports/20120824_Comcast_part_of_talks_to_move_NBA_team_to_Virginia.html
This was another. It’s also on ESPN.com
AMc, when you’re supposed to defend yourself against ten ‘supposed’ witnesses, eight of whom you’re not even told their names, how do you yell ‘CHARGE!’…? When you’re told there is evidence, but zero failed tests, how do you defend yourself by yelling ‘CHARGE!’…?
Again, we all (should) know this wouldn’t be the final ‘battle scene’. There would be more, and exactly how was Armstrong supposed to defend himself against charges that weren’t even provided foundation?
When the USADA does not even provide you with the claims they make against you, making romantic statements of gallantry have zero effect. You don’t even know what to defend yourself against.
Again, all my points about lack of jurisdiction, lack of term of culpability, lack of evidence provided – these are components of a fight I want to wade into, with the US government?
Sure, if you already think I’m guilty…
I don’t know what to think about Lance. If he’s never failed a drug/doping test, but is still being punished as if he did, then that renders the test and results 100% meaningless and worthless. Drug/doping testing should stop immediately if this is how the results are going to be used and ignored.
Using the same logic, why would Landis and Hamilton have ever been convicted for failing the same tests? The results clearly appear to not matter.
Instead of banning people why don`t they just shut the sport down for a year especially if doping and `roids are as widespread as I have read here. Tell these guys when they come back in 2014 they better be clean and figure out a way to to test for this stuff. If they don`t , why would this sport be credible anymore anyway. Plus, if they pass Lance`s titles down to the next guy, who`s to say he`s not dirty.
The Kings are supposedly considering seven possible options. I’ve not seen any NBA experts that consider the Va Beach proposal to be anything more than overt optimism by Va Beach business leaders. I tend to doubt the NBA coming to anywhere new in Va.
CR — I can tell you’ve got more background in this kind of thing than I do. I’m no lawyer and don’t pretend to be, but wouldn’t the arbitration process force the USADA to present/clarify its claims? I mean, isn’t that exactly what such a process is for?
In other news… Finally it is time for High School Football! Making the long drive to Amherst County tonight with a bunch of boys from my son’s football team to cheer on Northside. This is one of the best times of the year without a doubt.
Amc, if you’re accused of a felony, but not given any details of multiple felonies or any names of several supposed witnesses to those felonies until you take the stand to testify in your defense, that’s totally fair, right?
You should be pumped about proving that you were innocent (NOT – not guilty, but innocent) of whatever you were charged with once you took the stand. You’d have no problem proving that, right? Heck, who wouldn’t be eager to face a legal process in that manner, if you were REALLY innocent? To not do so would be to admit you were guilty of ALL the unnamed charges.
I’d just like to hear the actual facts of what Armstrong is charged with, and know the backgrounds of the supposed witnesses. No sports media have bothered much with the facts, though. Everyone’s minds were already determined, evidently. I’ve googled quite a bit since last night, and found very little. Heck, though, it’s just a guy’s reputation, iconic status and life we’re talking about. No big deal… Somebody get a rope…
cr, that’s part of why I’m skeptical. The current lack of an adequate facility makes immediate relocation impossible. Hampton Roads largest facility can seat up to just under 14,000…the Hampton Coliseum, but that is 42 years old. The Norfolk Scope seats about 11,000, but it’s also over 40 years old, though somewhat recently renovated. The Ted Constant Center at ODU is fairly new, but only seats 9,500. None of those are attractive to a pro team.
Household demographics have improved greatly though. In the 90′s, median household income was abysmal and a major negative to the pro leagues…but now the median income is up substantially, and higher than several pro sports markets like Charlotte, Raleigh, and Jacksonville…to name 3. But, they lack Fortune 500 company HQ’s (just 4), and with so many jobs being related to the military and government, corporate money for buying luxury boxes and blocks of tickets is probably insufficient.
That said, the area is ripe for a pro team I believe. It’s a 3+ hour trek to Raleigh, 6 or so hours to Charlotte, and easily 4-5+ to DC, traffic-depending…so it’s not like fans are going to other markets on a regular basis to see games. And given the love of basketball in the 757 at the HS and college level, I think there would be a pretty decent fan base for a franchise.
But I still put them at a major longshot behind other markets…the local governments there almost never cooperate on anything, even when it’s mutually beneficial. The Tide light rail…Norfolk wanted it, no one else did. The Lake Gaston water pipeline…cities sued each other over pricing and volumetric supplies. Past pro sports rumblings…everyone disagreed over revenue sharing, taxes, funding, and location. So, I’ll believe it when I see it…
CR — I’m not being a smart aleck here (although I so often am it’s easy to assume that). Wouldn’t the discovery process take care of clarifying any charges Lance is unclear on? Or does that not happen in arbitration? These are real questions I have, not rhetorical ones. I assumed so but do not know that for sure. I wouldn’t think you’d just show up and they’d say, “Prove your innocence,” but maybe they would. I would assume they’d say “Here’s what they say you did, and here are the witnesses that testify to it, and here is whatever other evidence they have. Now, what’s your side of this?”
Per your hypothetical, if that was what happened in my felony trial and I was appalled by their accusations, then yes, I’d be eager to have that day in court.
UPDATE: Found this in the linked story (emphasis mine): Armstrong could have pressed his innocence in USADA’s arbitration process, which would have included a hearing during which evidence against him would have been presented. But the cyclist has said he believes most people have already made up their minds about whether he’s a fraud or a persecuted hero.
I’m a Lance fan, but it’s highly likely he cheated. Of course he’s going to avoid the arbitration, because his name is going to be dragged through the mud and it would cost him millions in legal fees and, again, he probably did it and all the evidence would show he did it. Backing out now saves him money, time, and at leaves preserves some ambiguity about whether he did it – which is all he has now. (And probably saves the reputation of the people who turned ‘state’ on him, including his friend Hincapie.)
That said and echoing comments above, if almost all the top teams and riders were cheating/doping during that period, he’s still a 7-time world champion in my view and a total badass. Different than the cheating in baseball, when fewer guys were taking steriods and the home run record is compared against prior generations and is somewhat sacred.
If everyone back then was cheating and riding is now cleaned up, I just don’t see why resources are/were devoted to going after him. Are they now going to spend millions investigating whoever came in 2nd all 7 of those years until they lose their title? And then number 3′s, and then 4s and then 5s and green and polka jersey winners? This smacks of prosecutors/sports bureaucrats trying to make names for themselves.
To repeat, though, my somewhat of an apologist’s view is predicated on assumption that almost no riders were clean in that period. I haven’t read anything to the contrary.
That’s just what I mean, during the hearing, the evidence would have been presented. Not before – DURING – the hearing. Gee, that would leave a lot of time to vet the evidence, interview the witnesses, determine a method to refute the charges in a legal manner. DURING the hearing, not before.
Just wing it, baby.
When a witness (himself a convicted doper being threatened with prosecution) says he saw you inject yourself on a day back in 1996 – EIGHT years beyond the statute of limitations, you have all of a couple of minutes to say – ‘Nun uh!’, before losing your arbitration hearing.
Again, USADA has no authority beyond June 2004, yet they ‘investigated’ back to 1996. Gee, no problems with that, right?
USADA has no authority to remove victories, that is the sole control of UCI & TDF. Gee, no problems with that, right? Even the victories prior to June 2004? Revert back a paragraph. No problems, right?
USADA has refused to provide the names of 8 of their 10 ‘witnesses’. Gee, no problems with that, right?
USADA has not provided any factual evidence for their allegations. Gee, no problems with that, right?
Never mind a desire for informed opinion. Never mind a link to any actual charges by the USADA. Never mind any reporting on the case. We all know he’s guilty of everything, just ’cause.
Where’s that rope?
OJ, I’m a little skeptical about the Tidewater’s ability to host a pro team, for some of the reasons you referenced. I guess I could generalize and say that it seems too decentralized to pull it off. I don’t know, I think the interest in college sports is a big step from an interest in pro sports. Just ask the Charlotte Hornets… oops Bobcats. North Carolina is basketball crazy, probably behind only Kentucky & Indiana. Yet…
Good luck to them if it happens, but I’d think the odds are single digit.
I’m pretty sure that Brian McNamee and Jose Canseco were two of the witnesses that weren’t named. Maybe McNamee was going to testify that he gave Sheryl Crow a shot in the butt!
I still think he would know beforehand. Gotta imagine the setup would be similar to this.
Overview of Discovery Process
The discovery process allows the parties to obtain facts and information from other parties to the arbitration in order to support their own case and prepare for the hearing. The Codes of Arbitration Procedure require parties to cooperate with each other to the fullest extent practicable in the voluntary exchange of documents and information to expedite the arbitration process. The Codes contain rules that govern the discovery process, including making discovery requests, responding to such requests, objecting to discovery requests, and arbitrator authority to issue sanctions against parties for discovery abuses.
We need a government lawyer in here, stat!
AMcF,
Didn’t Landis DENY the doping charges before finally confronted with a preponderance of evidence (ie-guilt) he admitted to it?
You are going to believe this guy, lock, stock and barrel?
500 tests and nothing yet on HOW the doping occurred, what PED it was, etc.?
Not a LA fan at all, but 500 tests and not one failed, what preponderance of evidence is needed here? And why does Armstrong have to prove his INNOCENCE? What kind of balaoney is it where the “doper” stuff gets floated out there and then it has to be PROVEN false?
The doping agency has a political agenda. LA must have really ticked someone off there.
Now would be a great time for an intrepid sports reporter to check out Sam Sparks’ thoughts on the matter, and the details in why Armstrong was facing the arbitration despite having no evidence provided his defense or names of his accusers. I don’t know, it shouldn’t be so hard to get to the facts.
Then again, I said in post #11 – people who thought Armstrong was guilty before still think so, and those that didn’t probably don’t. This thread has certainly proven that correct.
I don’t think that he never took supplements or never did things to his blood. I do think that he would have been caught if he was guilty of what was wrong at the time, since the French were NOT happy about him kicking the derrieres of their athletes, and of all other Euros. They had the blood and urine samples, they had lots of time to concoct something, and never did.
Still, if the arbitration went anything like today, no wonder Armstrong didn’t see the need to pay additional millions to attorneys for endless arbitration and appeals. No concerns about naming the accusers. No concerns about listing the evidence. No concerns about statute of limitations. No concerns about authority to remove said victories. Just the glee in announcing you have done that without basis. Repeated requests, yet none of these things even addressed.
Anyone who thinks they would have been addressed prior to the hearing has not noticed how they have been refused to be addressed for the last two months. That would be a good sentence to re-read.
No concerns about naming the accusers. No concerns about listing the evidence. No concerns about statute of limitations. No concerns about authority to remove said victories. Just the glee in announcing you have done that without basis. Repeated requests, yet none of these things even addressed.
I’m still waiting for somebody with a rope…
Derek Jeter loses chance at Hall of Fame! Refuses to deny use of PEDs during his baseball career! Despite charges by a renowned ESPN analyst, Derek Jeter refused to defend himself against use of PEDs, including steroids.
It’s a shame, too, because Jeter seemed like a nice guy. Who could have known he was such a cheat, hypocrite, and a liar? His legacy is tarnished now for decades to come.
If he’d been innocent, he would have fought it.
Fish in a barrel…
Wow, a lot of Lance comments here (of course, that is the topic du jour – get it, that Frenchie thing?), and I can’t begin to go thru them all, but I get this gist of the CR v. A-Mac discussion – and I said it earlier – the dude gave up, because he knew the only way this would end was to say “I cheated” or to give up, and have the other side say “He cheated.”
The battle was NEVER going to end for him. No matter what he did, he could not prove his innocence. He was on the opposite side of what the US Constitution says – innocent until proven guilty. He as accused of guilt, and forced to prove his innocence. I easily can see why the guy gave up.
In the long run, this a a lot of cyclists’ envy, in my opinion. If he cheated, so what? The guys accusing him are jealous of him cheating better than they did, particularly since they admitted doing so? He’s a better cyclist, and a better cheater. So what? Give him the yellow jersey.
If he didn’t get busted in 1999, 2000, 2001, et al, within a reasonable time (you do know, in these great United States we live in, there IS a statue of limitations on certain things, for criminal offenses), he’s not guilty of anything.
If it can’t be proven within a reasonable amount of time – and it has not – he hs presumed innocent – not the other way around.
And, as Forrest Gump would say, “that’s all I have to say about that.”
Aaron, Tom Cruise was around here yesterday-maybe get him back. Come to think of it, maybe some is this discussion can`t handle the truth.
It is so hard for me to believe that in this string of comments I actually AGREE with Crooked Road. I know nothing at all about the Anti-Doping Angency’s charter, procedures and so on. I do know that they have continued to pursue Armstrong long after his career is over. If, in fact, Armstrong is the king of doping, well, so be it. I just can’t get worked up with righteous indignation about his alleged sins when he has NEVER EVER tested positive.
The ICU – who runs international cycling – will have the final say anway. I know there is some sort of international agreement that obligates the ICU to at least listen to what the ADA has to say.
If I was Armstrong I would not bet into a stacked deck and it is clear to me these ADA people have an agenda. I really doubt that truth is on the agenda. Sorry, I am cynical about this.
I don’t know whether LA is guilty or not. My opinion about his guilt has no real meaning. I don;t see supporting the ADA because I have an opinion. They are trying to ruin a guy based on the comments of people who hate him
We used to be against this sort of kangaroo court in this country. LA cannot win this despite the number of times that the “hero” wins out at the last second on TV.
Hate to say it, Aaron, but there does come a point where fighting something takes such a toll that you give up just to get it over with. I’ve been at that point myself with a few issues RL, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you and others have as well. Perhaps Lance is well and truly tired of the fighting, innocent or guilty, and has decided enough is enough?
Donald — I think I’m there with this topic.
Good discussion, CR and others. Enjoyed the back and forth. Everybody have fun at the openers tonight! If you’re at the Botetourt Brouhaha, come say hello. I’ll be the guy with the notebook, feverishly brushing off the dust on my stat-keeping skills.
Have read all posts. Saw points on both sides of discussion but I think you have to read between the lines here. Lance was playing Poker with a good hand but got to time to play on with the final wager. Knew enough about hand playing against, got uneasy and folded.
ZMan, it’s called ‘once in a blue moon’ for a reason, LOL… Sometimes it happens. Have a good weekend…
Maybe I’m too late for the LA discussion (so I’m writing for posterity and AM’s approval), but:
The number two person in several of LA’s wins, Jan Ulrich, already vacated his positions. Virtually every year from 1999 to 2009, multiple high finishers have later been wiped from the books. Only Floyd Landis was actually caught at the TdF itself. As far as I’m concerned, there is NO winner from 1999-2005, because the testing program they have been using as the major watchdog is clearly incapable of determining whether PEDs were used.
The USADA has no authority to wipe out TdF wins–but Congress has granted it the capacity to police the use of PEDs in US sports, and I believe it can say that someone did not compete fairly from X date to Y date. It is then the responsibility of the individual event or sport (IOC, Intl Cycling Union, TdF organizer) to determine how to handle records. In the same way,the USADA couldn’t tell Major League Baseball that Barry Bonds’s home runs no longer counted.
The federal judge said essentially that if LA was not satisfied, he had to run through the arbitration process before he could go to court in the USA. That again was set up in the congressional order to create the USADA. The judge DID state that the process did not look fair, but that until LA went through it, he couldn’t claim it had treated him in an unconstitutional manner.
And, going through that process would reportedly have led to Hincapie, Leipheimer, and others being called. I would be very surprised if LA’s people didn’t know what those folks would have said. And, even if it was eventually unconstitutional, the comments and observations would be toothpase that couldn’t be put back in the tube. What do many think of Roger Clemens, who was exonerated?
It does seem that USADA has been on a Javert-like program to do this, but one should also keep in mind that this is probably the highest priority “questionable” athlete in the USA.
Oddly, I find I am much closer to position 2 than position 1 from above–I don’t know if that is because I view the entire sport as compromised, because of the other things LA has done, or if I am holding out on the difference between beyond reasonable doubt and preponderance of evidence presented. Most of all, however, I am saddened at the whole thing.
Terrific post ken. Never too late for something like that.
Btw Botetourt clinging to 8-6 lead over James River at intermission.
Hey, guys, Travis posted an outstanding thought on his own blog about Lance Armstrong’s issue.
” Banned from cycling ” means much more than banning him from road bike competition. It means that he is banned from any part of bicycle racing ( road, mountain bike whatever) in ANY official capacity. It also means he is banned from tri events since the two governing bodies have a reciprocating agreement. Also means he will never get to vacation in the South of France.
Hey, who cares about Lance and NASCAR? What we want to know is how about dem’ Chokies? They are the real story. They are going to win the National Championship, if you don’t believe it, just read the quote below that came out yesterday.
“One of the biggest story-lines to date regarding this 2012 Virginia Tech football team has been which freshmen are going to be able to contribute and what impact will they make? Though the Hokies are talented and perhaps considered a fringe national title contender, they have some pretty obvious holes–holes that are by-and-large filled by underclassmen and even freshmen.”
Yes sir, VT will go all the way, if you don’t believe it, you are not a true football fan.
The good angle by Travis is on the motive. As I said very early in this thread, and zero people noticed, Armstrong would never had been investigated had he stayed retired after 2005.
I’m still waiting for an explanation of how the USADA had the right to violate its’ own 8 year statute of limitations on investigations while going back SIXTEEN years to accuse Armstrong.
I have no knowledge of any, ANY local or national reporter noticing that while they breathlessly announced Armstrong’s guilt by resignation.
But hey, the main thing is to generate hits and interest, who needs substance. That takes too much effort…
The timing for his plea deal is suspicious at best.
http://www.10news.com/news/31381196/detail.html
I look at cycling like NASCAR. Everyone is pushing the rules. I think the USADA’s crusade against Lance is despicable. What is the motivation? Why does the United States ADA have any jurisdiction in a french race? Lance will always be a great champion in my opinion, and i have no doubt he was using performance enhancing drugs and processes. He was the champion of the tour de doping. It is a government funded character assassination…NOTHING MORE.
Well, if it is USADA’s own statute of limitations maybe they decided to change the rules. They are their rules. Right? They gave themselves the “right”. Right? This is not a criminal or a civil case so the same rules do not apply.
Crooked Road. Here is what the USADA has to say about Lance and the eight years.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-armstrong-could-have-retained-five-tour-wins
Does stripping Lance Armstrong of his titles reduce the pride we Americans felt as he was winning them? The guy competed at the highest level in an event that the hosts, every step of the way, begrudged his success. Did anyone really think that all the accusations, founded or not, were ever going to stop? When they prove he was the only one doping, when they prove his opponents were not, then I’ll say it’s fair. Either way, his fundraising for cancer is his greatest legacy.