Charles Darwin: Brilliant scientist or agent of Satan? Put your thoughts here!
Charles Darwin
Dear gentle blogoteers,
A few other threads regarding my little contest to rename Liberty University (also here and here) have devolved into a pitched battle between forces who believe we evolved from a primordial stew and those who believe that God created man and all other creatures.
I have never claimed to be a source of wisdom on this or any other subject. And I don’t have the answer to the question above. But it may surprise you (or dismay you) to learn I believe God was involved. That is ALL I will say on the subject.
More importantly, what do YOU say?
Put your evolution/creation comments HERE, please, NOT on the thread soliciting new names for the politically rigid institution that calls itself “Liberty.”
BTW, here’s a neat little video called The Trouble with Open-mindedness.
And here’s another one called The Advantages of Extremism.
And a big welcome to readers of the popular science blog Pharyngula, which calls itself “Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal.” Its founder, P.Z. Myers is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris.
June 5, 2009 - 1:56 PM
Evolution….no doubt about it! To think all humans came about from Adam and Eve is much harder to believe that we evolved from ape like creatures. Evoution has been happening since the beginning of life. Now did God give that initial “spark” to start the whole process….maybe…but to think all creatures were created individually is, in my opinion, fantasy. There was a definite progression in the complexity of life forms….starting with single celled organisms up to life as we know it today. There were no humans on earth while the dinosaurs ruled, right? So God created dinosaurs then several hundreds of millions years later created man???
Dan o no please don’t go down the bill clinton trail,george bush either. and i am not sure how many people remember larry flint. as for darwin, i am “ignorant” of the man’s personal beliefs regarding God. i do remember reading somewhere that he acknowledged God on his death bed.(there are no atheist in foxholes so to speak). could he have been a brilliant scientist and wrong at the same time? are the two mutually exclusive? i have heard scientist speak who started out trying to disprove creationism through science and wound up believers of the very thing thing they set out to disprove because of the overwhelming evidence.
suppose i spent my whole life climbing a ladder only to get to the top and discover i leaned it against the wrong building?
what say you, you other gentle blogoteers?
This is simply not a subject that can be debated rationally in a forum such as this because some people insist on bringing baggage that clouds the issue into it. Charles Darwin was a brilliant scientist in any sense of the word. I am certain that there was, is and always will be, a God who created it all. What I doubt is that the story in the Bible, Torah, or the Qur’an is the whole, complete or absolute story. THAT is where the confusion, passion, misinformation and anger comes into the debate and there is no help for it. It is convenient for people of a certain mindset to dismiss the historical time and purpose of the writing and use of the Holy Books, the rulers control of information as well as education, the motives of the authors and the archivists, the doubts and dismissals of other prophets that could have happened, much less the bones, fossils, archaeological finds and dating technology that has proved to be somewhat of a refutation of “fact”. God is my final answer but Darwin was not wrong.
is darwin speaking to us from the grave?
2nd the Evolution position. The very fact that Liberty University exists completely defeats Intelligent Design theory. No kind and lovely God would have created Falwell and his ilk in his image unless he had a sense of humor.
darwin – so you are saying we evolved from dinosaurs?
dang no body will play with me
Dan may not answer the evolution vs. creation question, but he certainly confirmed Pavlov’s experiments. The keyboards are salivating!
I love when Darwinism weeds out the gene pool. (i.e. hey y’all watch this!)
i think man evolved from a turd….that would explain you Dan!
Smooth Tony, so what explains you?
Dan you’re a provocateur!
Steve…your comment on “Liberty” made me spit my coffee out.
Evolution is a great example of how misguided and lost man can be. Man has evolved but has not eliminated ONE sin. God pours out His Spirit and great science and technology comes forth. Still man is blind to the creation of God. Darwin gained fame, and lost his faith. “What profit a man if he gain the world, and loseth his soul.”
It is foolishness for the believer to debate the deceived. Satan blinds them to the Truth, and encircles them with his chains dragging them down to hell. Pray for them, don’t debate them.
Truth lives!
Thank you Edgar for standing up for our Lord and Savior. How sad there are so many who are lost, to the point of heart-wrenching even. Yes, we are to pray for the lost in heartfelt prayer that their eyes will be opened.
Our fight is against the unseen..Satan and his minions who devour the weak.
I believe Darwin was a Brilliant scientist. If anyone can show me who/what created God then I will take a good look at creationism.
How about this one… God created Darwin. Darwin proffers his Theory of Evolution ( that is backed by cold,hard scientific data and physical evidence )… who’s to say that evolution is not part of God’s plan? Is it not possible that God Himself started the whole shebang, and let things progress?
I dont think its either/or..I believe evolution is a fact.But someone or something sparked all this..God or nature or hoewever you want to put it.
Why do some people insist evolution is anti-God or religion. To believe in evolution doesn’t mean you don’t believe in God. Evolution explains how life forms may change and how they adapt to a constantly changing environment, but it doesn’t explain how life started. I think “Not this again” brings up a good point…..I also believe that God may have started the initial life, and it is His plan to just let it go and see where it takes us.
Why this again, indeed? The purpose is a particularly low one: to divide one group of people against another.
There is no practical immediate importance whatsoever for people in and around Roanoke today to discuss “evolution/creationism” or any other article of faith. So why does the paper bring it up in a public forum? It’s a kind of lazy, slovenly pseudo-journalism, designed to stir up empty controversy. Have you ever noticed how many of these blog entries elicit zero comments? If you’re getting paid to put out a blog it looks bad to look so irrelevant. So you take the easy way out and try to stir up interest this way.
Darwin had a brain and he knew how to use it. *If* there were a god, he/she/it would be proud of Darwin.
Who created God?
Darwin was a brilliant scientist and clever observer of the natural world.
Satan is a fairy tale made up by a bunch of backwards people who needed to scare people into submission.
Rauchen,
Thank you for the comment!
This is the year 2009 and we are on the internet – there is simply no excuse being scientifically ignorant. We evolved like all other life, that proposition is really no longer up for debate. If you want to believe God had a role in the process, then fine. But to say anything other than the world is billions of years old (confirmed by multiple dating techniques and measurements of the age of the universe) and that we evolved (confirmed by the fossil record, the genetic code within, morphology and anatomy of animals, the biogeographic diversity and observed speciation) these are simply facts anyone needs to encompass into their worldview if they want to remain intellectually honest.
Evolution is true as much as the earth orbits the sun is true. That’s the reality of the science. Whether God exists or not should be an external question and not one that is a dichotomy between evolution and creation… if you do take that path, you rely on the ignorance of the population to keep that position. And do you think it is a virtue that your worldview requires the ignorance of others in order to propagate?
Evolution is the correct path to follow and should be taught in our schools with no exceptions.
Charles Darwin was a brilliant scientist, of course. (Essentially all actual scientific organizations agree to this.) But many findamentalist Protestant Christians (who belive as strongly in Satan as they do in the other members of their pantheon, making them Manichaean heretics) do not understand that Martin Luther had much more to do with the evils of the Nazis than did Darwin (see the Wikipedia article “On the Jews and Their Lies,” written by Luther in 1543.
Other persons wandered off in various directions, some perverting the findings of Darwin in various ways perceived by fundamentalists as Satanic. But Darwin, having died before these random mutations of his theories happened, cannot be blamed for what happened. After all, look how the Imperial Roman secret agent provocateur Saul of Tarsus managed to turn around a simple religion of love – as Thomas Jefferson observed, he was the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”
No, you got it backwards. Satan was the Agent for Darwin. Shopped Darwin’s books around to publishers, arranged public appearances, wrote his press releases, stuff like that. Took a flat 20% of Darwin’s profits off his works, which seems a little steep, but what are you going to do? He’s Satan. (I hear that now Satan represents Uwe Boll.)
Darwin : Fact
Satan : Fiction
Brilliant scientist– no doubt about that: he was a creative experimenter, a patient, deep thinker and a gifted writer, too. Agent of Satan? A silly idea, though the two aren’t logically incompatible. Read his letters: Darwin was obviously a humane, kind and gentle man who loved his family and cared about other people too; he was also a passionate opponent of slavery. There are plenty of real evils in this world we should be working to change. Blaming them on a scientist who contributed so much to our understanding of life on earth is a distraction at best; at worst, it’s a manipulative lie intended to deceive and manipulate people who don’t know any better.
The greatest trick Charles Darwin ever pulled was to convince the world that he didn’t exist. Why do these atheist scientists even try to find truth, since there is no meaning to their lives? I prefer the dark ages back when Christianity had a backbone and actually inquisitioned the world. Did you know ancient man lived longer than modern man? Ancient meaning maybe six thousands years ago. Man invented time and also if you say it with your mouth and believe it with your heart, Jesus will make it happen. Sometimes when I’m alone I speak in tongues, should I report that on my taxes?
I’ll go with reality, thank you… Darwin was a hard-working scientist who understood the principles of observation and experimentation. I wouldn’t say that would make him a brilliant scientist unless we define all the other scientists who follow the rigorous principles of science brilliant, too. Oh heck, he was brilliant.
What’s satanic about trying to understand Nature? What has God explained? Darwin was a genius — the impact and elegance of his theory is understandable by an 8 year old.
Will,
i do remember reading somewhere that he acknowledged God on his death bed. Nah, that was a fib and long since exploded. And you do get atheists in foxholes.
i have heard scientist speak who started out trying to disprove creationism through science and wound up believers of the very thing thing they set out to disprove because of the overwhelming evidence.
I’m sure you have heard that claim, it is very common, but I doubt if you could find a specific example of a serious working scientist who has had that experience.
Darwin was a brilliant scientist and Satan didn’t need him as an agent, because religious people already give the Devil so much publicity…
Darwin = Actual human being and brilliant scientist. We can prove he existed.
Satan = Fictional character in a bronze-age book of fairytales.
As long as we are dancing around the point:
Darwin IS Satan!
It’s so obvious! How else could the man divine such great truths about nature?
Was Darwin an agent of Satan? Well, all the pictures I’ve ever seen of his fail to show his feet. Perhaps because he had cloven hooves? Hmm?!
Edgar, you lost me at “Man has evolved but has not eliminated ONE sin.” So you do believe in evolution? But not free will? God was kinda big on free will, and the effort to “eliminate” a sin from all of humanity would only work if it also negated free will. Then you go on to admit that God gave us science, but then call us blind, deceived unbelievers for believing the results that science gives us? Truth DOES live – through science, research, experimentation, and logic.
Plenty of Christians believe in evolution – maybe you should have a long conversation with some of them?
Will again,
As to Darwin’s personal beliefs, we can’t hope to know what another really believed but the evidence available tells us that Darwin found that his discoveries and his personal life experiences caused him to reject belief in god but only after much agonising and regret. He never denigrated religion but would walk his devout wife to church and then roam the by-ways making observations until the service was over before meeting her at the church door and returning home.
I think his Sundays were more constructively spent than hers, but that is just my personal opinion.
I vote for brilliant scientist.
Darwin was a pretty sharp guy and Satan doesn’t exist, so I think the answer is obvious.
Nice chap and brilliant scientist.
Darwin was a brilliant scientist way ahead of his time not only because he finally made biology make sense and basically made biology what it is today, but also because of his contributions in other fields. For example, he was the one who figured out how atolls form, and he studied worms, barnacles, and carnivorous plants as well.
He was also a very good person, shedding off religion and being anti-slavery among other things.
Darwin was a brilliant agent of satan. Of course, this implies that you actually believe that there is such a thing as satan. As Dawkins put it, evolution makes it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. Prior to his work, a great many scientists and intellectuals (including a healthy proportion of out founding fathers were deists, for no other reason that they didn’t have any other explanation. Would they have made the shift from deists to atheists if Darwin had lived and published 100 years earlier?
@ #16 and 18…don’t attribute gaps in human knowledge to god. Just because we don’t have a precise model worked out for the origin of life and/or the universe doesn’t necessarily mean that god did it. It’s only a matter of time before we have a more accurate and precise model worked out and then there will be no need for god at all. Hoorah.
Dead.
But he was very smart when he was around.
Darwin was a great scientist. When embarking the Beagle, he was still a believer of the biblical creation myth and immutability of species, and only when he analyzed the samples he had collected during that journey he came to the conclusion that species evolve. Same like Planck, who started of explaining black-body radiation using classical thermodynamics and ending revolutionizing it, he proved to be a real scientist by being led by observation and data, and not by tradition.
Darwin was a genius. He was one of the true beacons that guide this world (unlike religion that strives to keep people shrouded in darkness and ignorance).
There is no god. There is no satan. Evolution is a scientific fact. Case closed.
Edgar: Is cannibalism a sin? Because I’m pretty sure we don’t do that anymore…
…oh, wait…
#19 pretty much nails it. Who the hell is the author of the blog? And why should I care?
A brilliant scientist – no doubt about it. He did exactly what is expected of a good scientist at his time (in ways that may not be possible today anymore): He looked at nature, let the evidence guide him, formed a theory from the evidence and then tested this theory against mountains of evidence to eventually put it all out there: the theory **with** the mountains upon mountains of evidence. He made a case with hard facts taken from nature. He’s quite a model scientist and nothing can be done about the idea that some people seem to have that noticing and understanding something about the real world is ‘satanic’ in any way.
Charles Darwin was a God-fearing man who trusted in the truth revealed in nature. His temperate and selfless life is an example of holiness that contrasts with many judgemental, paranoid, hate-filled people who claim to be Christian.
(scratching head) Um… Why can’t he be both?
I’ve always thought that if there were a Satan, he’d be really pro-science, since science eats away at the ‘god of the gaps’.
It’s really funny to think of Darwin as a Great Satan, though. He was such a mild person! To have such earth-shattering insights and not to share them, just because they were, in fact, earth-shattering?
It’s a shame there’s no heaven. It’s fun to think of Darwin, off sitting on a cloud, shaking his head in disbelief at the controversy over his observations.
Darwin was a genius – a man who followed the evidence regardless of dogma.
Will… No one wants to play with you because you are so truly clueless. Where did you read that Darwin recanted on his death bed? You make lots of statements without checking your facts. That’s so christian of you.
Dan,
What the hell, I’ll play.
No, we did not evolve from dinosaurs but we share a common ancestor. But you knew that really, didn’t you?
bf,
Exactly. He had faith and he found evidence. He went with the evidence and it wasn’t easy. One of the many reasons to respect Darwin as a great scientist is that he had the integrity to accept that everything he had previously believed was wrong.
What’s the difference between a brillant scientist and an agent of Satan?
Darwin was too smart to believe in Satan. Those who do are probably dumb enough to believe in god, too.
brilliant!
Darwin is was the agent of REALITY
This is a joke, right?
Of course, Darwin was a brilliant scientist.
Satan is a mythical character.
If it were not for the great Charles Darwin religion would have an even more stranglehold on civilization. Darwin, and Einstein, have shown and proved that we are a part of the natural cosmos, not a determined thought by an imaginary god. They are revered.
If there’s anything I’ve noticed about Abrahamist perceptions of Satan, it’s that damn near nobody really understands who Satan is in the Bible, and that the picture isn’t even consistent from the Old Testament to the New (don’t ask me about the Koran, I haven’t read that much of it). Have the literalists failed to read Job, where it’s pretty clear that Satan works for God and makes no apologies for it?
As for Darwin, he started out from a Christian worldview and went where the evidence led him. Only to a complete and utter fanatic could that be considered wrong. He started with pigeon breeding and noticed that much the same thing was happening among the Galapagos finches as far as selection and adaptation, except that the selection pressures were coming from nature rather than from a breeder. It was a simple and profound insight about biology, and combining that with Mendel’s discovery of genes and Linnaeus’ work on taxonomy led to the spectacularly successful science of modern biology. The fact that the work of people like Kelvin and Hubble in unrelated fields backs up the idea of an old Earth and an old universe is just icing on the cake.
Darwin was a brilliant scientist and Satan is the product of overactive paleolithic imaginations.
Charles Darwin was a blessing from God.
For all values of God = The whole of the Universe that is beyond our individual selves, particularly that which is utterly beyond our individual control or influence.
(Oh, and we didn’t evolve from dinosaurs at all — birds did. Mammals actually existed before the dinosaurs.)
Yahweh, Satan, RA, Mithras, Thor etc….all just imaginary friends to people not sophisticated enough to understand the natural world around them. Darwin? Brilliant Scientist!
If being a brilliant scientist opens the question as to whether or not one is an “agent of Satan”, then sign me up to sell my soul–I’m all for it.
Good thing Satan’s not real, right? Oops! Should have posted a spoiler warning…
I only know one thing for certain: He was a very sexy man.
Satan is an imaginary agent of an imaginary god.
Darwin is a brilliant human.
How obvious does it have to be to get it?
Charles Darwin was the previous incarnation of the Japanese rock star Guitar Wolf, hero of the movie Wild Zero, in which he destroys a flying saucer with a samurai sword concealed in his electric guitar. Thereby saving the Earth from the zombie apocalypse.
He was also a first-rank scientist justly given the lion’s share of the credit for a brilliant insight into the development and nature of life, a discovery which is now one of the most thoroughly confirmed ideas in the history of human civilization.
I’m going to have to go with brilliant scientist, since one can’t really be an agent of a personage who doesn’t exist (though, as we have seen repeatedly throughout history, one can act ‘in their name’). Also, Darwin’s ideas can be empirically tested and are supported by a large wealth of evidence. If telling the truth makes one an agent of Satan, I feel sorry for those who aen’t.
Seeing as Satan doesn’t exist, the answer should be obvious.
Lovely man and brilliant scientist.
Don’t blame me.
There are mountains of evidence for evolution, accumulated over the 150 years since Charles Darwin identified natural selection as the primary mechanism of biological change.
There is no empirical evidence whatsoever for the existence of any gods.
Darwin was one of our greatest scientists, and certainly the most influential. Satan is a fictional being. Really, who can’t understand this?
Evolution hands down simply because it is evidential whereas NOTHING pertaining to religion, theology, etc. have a whisp of evidence in their support. From the evolutionary point of view the world makes perfect sense; from the religious none whatsoever. Science seeks answers; religion invents answers.
Charles Darwin was of course a brilliant scientist but contrary to popular believe he was not an agent of Satan. It is well known from his diaries that he worshiped the old gods and in particular Cthulu. In his later years he offered young children and babies to the gods in order to obtain and keep their blessings. There are rumors of a deathbed conversion to Christianity, but these are totally false. Chtulu ripped through the fabric of space and time at the very last momentof his life and took his servant Charles Darwin back to whatever dimension it came from.
Every life on Earth is here because it struggled, generation after generation after generation to pass its strengths onto its young.
THAT is awesome!
To cheapen that fight by invoking imaginary creators, just because of tradition. superstition and the refusal to study science is just tragic.
Yay Darwin.
I read Darwin’s ‘The Descent of Man’ when I was about nine or ten. I ruminated on the differences between science & religion over the next couple of years. By the age of twelve, I had become an atheist.
I’ve not once felt the need for god belief in the fifty plus years that’ve passed. I owe my early conversion to rationalism to Darwin.
The ‘Descent of Man’ & the ‘Origin of Species’ are still very much worth reading, firstly, because Darwin was mostly right, & secondly, because of how cogently he argues for & against the theory of evolution by natural selection. His ‘greatness’ shines through. Progress in various sciences has essentially validated him.
Darwin was a human manifestation of the mythological Lucifer, not the mythological Satan. He was truly a bringer of light – knowledge as the gnostics mistakingly believed about Jesus. Darwin provided an important light in our knowledge and understanding of the world, perhaps more important than Einstein & Newton. And as a truly human bringer of light, sometimes things got scorched, such as Darwin’s thoughts on inheritance.
Only the foolish of the foolish would ever claim creationism over evolution. Darwin was pure genuis.
What an unfortunate reflection on the development of humanity and our educational systems when this question even needs to be asked.
I’m going to have to go with “brilliant scientist” for the win. “Agent of Satan”? How can someone be an agent for a mythological being? Wouldn’t that be like an, “Agent of Wile E. Coyote”? “Agent of Santa Claus”? “Agent of God”? At least with Wile E. you might get the benefit of the cool Acme gear. If only he really existed, I mean.
Darwin was brilliant. Calling him an “agent of Satan” makes no more sense than calling him “the evil unicorn rider of doom”.
The only reason people refuse to accept evolution is because their silly religions thought up by confused and imaginative people in the past say humans were created differently.
Saying evolution is wrong because God made humans and birds and everything at the same time is no different than saying Einstein’s relativity is wrong because Zeus clapping his hands causes gravity to exist.
To every compicated question, there is a simple answer.
It is wrong.
Two Options?
1) life evolved by natural chemical processes.
2) godditid
Option 2 may seem simpler, EXCEPT:
whence the deity?
Postulating that goddidit raises further questions.
And further. (The nuns hated me for asking this one.)
Next question:
From what came the universe?
1) dunno, but I’ll keep looking for an answer.
2) goddidit
Postulating that goddidit raises further questions.
And further. (The nuns hated me for asking this one.)
Simple answers are wrong answers.
I’m going to go with brilliant scientist. I suppose you could say he was an agent of Satan, if you construe “Satan” to mean “anything that leads people to doubt whatever religion they were brought up in.” However, even this is debatable for two reasons.
One, Darwin himself never intended to place doubt on religion as such, and was simply extrapolating a physical process based on his own observations. Unless his eyes were somehow hijacked by the Prince of Darkness, he was not an “agent” of anything. Two, this turns Satan into a philosophical construct, which is not generally what people refer to when they say “agent of Satan.”
Also, while evolution can (and should, in my opinion) lead people to scepticism of religion, it does not *have* to do so. It often doesn’t. So, to reiterate, Charles Darwin was a brilliant scientist, and not a agent of Satan.
Darwin was not an agent of Satan, if for no other reason than that there is no Satan. Nor is there a God, but I’m betting you probably knew that already.
Darwin was in the right place at the right time to observe things which had been hitherto rendered mostly invisible by religious orthodoxy throughout history to that point. The signs, of course, wereverywhere, and Darwin wasn’t the only one who was paying attention. His explanation for the phenomena is what we remember him for, and the thoroughness and carefulness and the humanity of his observations. When you have Darwin, you don’t need “god,” and that is the nut of the campaign against him…
Brilliant scientist and it’s not really close.
Satan? Such foolish old constructs and beliefs in vespers.
Darwin was most assuredly a scientist, and one that has done much for humanity. He struck a powerful defense of evidence-based science and practice, and we are all the better for it today. Focusing on evidence is also the only thing that will carry humanity into the future, instead of a dark return to the past with its acidic abuse of subjectivity and superstition as animus. Thank you Darwin.
Darwin was Hitler’s daddy. Didn’t you see Expelled?
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Charles Darwin was simply a man that questioned the world he saw around him, and made sense of it. He used reason and the scientific method to acquire a wealth of evidence that demonstrates that life is an ever changing maelstrom, and not specially created. He made no comment about religious belief, wisely saying that it was not within the purview of science. If this makes him an agent of satan, then I guess that he is. I prefer to think of him as a rigorous, thoughtful, conscientious man who allowed us to develop a framework to understand the world around us. Without evolution we cannot do this, and the world is a ‘just-so’ story.
Aw how cute Dan, did you just get a computer?
Congratulations on one of the dumbest question/post ever.
Satan doesn’t exist. So great scientist.
Charles Darwin was a brilliant scientific agent of Satan!
If given just those two alternatives the question is easy, brilliant scientist. After all, there is just as much verifiable evidence for the existence of a sentient being called Satan as there is for Santa Claus or Zeus or Baal. An equal question could be…”Charles Darwin: Brilliant Scientist or agent of Santa Claus”. Again, the choice is easy.
Outside the realm of silly, little questions, the fact that Darwin’s basic premise underlies modern biology (i.e. biology makes no sense without evolution) certainly qualifies him as one of the greatest minds in the history of our species.
Darwin was definitely an agent of Santa!
You can tell by the beard.
God and Satan descended from Man.
Darwin was a brilliant scientist who was Satan’s agent for only a couple of years until the Evil One found somebody who charged less.
Man evolved from the crocoduck, and then invented God, who in turn invented the portable banana. This cannot be disproven, therefore it is true.
How can he be an agent of someone who does not exist?
Brilliant scientist. Regardless of what the fundy’s say about the Bible, the real-world, physical evidence overwhelmingly says Darwin was right.
I am encouraged by the huge number of Darwin supporters on this post! Gives me hope for the future.
Darwin was the greatest scientist of the last 1000 years. Only through evolution does biology make sense, and evolution by natural selection, so simple, so easy to understand, is likely the dominant force that shaped all of life on Earth. Our human bodies are littered with the detritis of our evolutionary past: our appendix, our wisdom teeth, our canine teeth, the little points on the upper curl of our ears (Darwin points) that indicate pointed-ear ancestors….on and on it goes.
The idea of Satan, of “eternal damnation,” of “personal salvation through Jesus,” all this sort of thing, is in the realm of religion, is untestable, and cannot be proven (but certainly can be, to an extent, disproven). These “believers” who rant on about unbelievers “burning in Hell” just don’t get the concept that one has to BELIEVE in Hell first. To an athiest like myself, the concepts of heaven and hell are just figments of the human imagination and have no reality to me. Darwin, to the eternal distress of his very religios wife Emma, also felt much the same way.
Darwin = Brilliant scientist.
Creationism = Unjustified. Everything that has been studied has been shown to be a natural process.
Atheists just believe in one god less than deists. Remember Isis, Osisris, Zeus, Woden, Ahura Mazda, etc. At one time people knew they existed with infallible certainty.
Brilliant agent of scientific satanism.
Brilliant scientist, stupid blog
The states is a wacky place. Evolution accounts for the diversity of life beautifully, there is no sane alternative explanation. No amount of evangelical hand-waving changes that simple fact. Those with religious or philosophical objections, they can come up with some coherent explanation that more satisfactorily explains the observations. Efforts to date have been embarrasingly inadequate. Darwin was right, and ever-increasing evidence further makes the case.
Darwin was the greatest scientist of the 19th Century. As for Satan: he doesn’t even exist except in the minds and actions of those who too often emulate him while pretending to fight him.
Arguing against evolution is the modern equivalent of arguing that the earth is flat.
As the authorized Agent of Satan, I would like to state for the record that Mr. Satan has never employed or been associated with a Mr. Charles Darwin. We do however currently have a Mr. Charles Manson under contact.
We hope this clears up any confusion.
Aaaaagggghhhh!
I tried to avoid coming to this blog. Damn it PZ!!!!
I finally caved, and popped in, and I stumble into Darwin’s “death bed conversion” and a third or fourth person (minimum) recount of “scientists” converting to creationism because they’ve found so much evidence to support it.
It must be true, I heard it from my minister!
I have to go get a hacksaw so I can scrub my brain directly.
Goodbye.
There’s no place like home, there’s no place like home….
Nice one, Mark!
“Brilliant scientist or agent of satan?” Um, don’t I get a third choice? Charles Darwin was brilliant only in his insight regarding natural selection and in pulling together the thoughts of others before him and the evidence that he and others gathered. The thing so many creationists fail to understand is that the “theory of evolution” isn’t a _belief_, it’s a _description_. It describes a set of mechanisms by which the observed evidence most likely came to be. As a theory is it currently one of the strongest in Man’s repertoire, right up there with Newton’s laws of motion and Einstein’s relativity. There is an evergrowing mountain of evidence backing it up and not a single shred of real, hard evidence that contradicts it, creationist slurs notwithstanding.
It just so happens that my brother is suffering from one of the more timely effects of evolution actually describing a real process, by virtue of the fact that he is undergoing heavy-duty antibiotic therapy for a methicillin-resistant strain of staphylococcus aureus (MRSA, for short). If evolution weren’t valid, MRSA wouldn’t exist, nor would the research that produced the antibiotics that are saving his life have had positive result.
To paraphrase a noted Webcomic: “Science. It works, bitches.”
What a bloody silly question.
Mark,
I hope your brother recovers.
Does the Agent of Satan get 15% of all Satan’s earnings? With all the royalties from Heavy Metal albums, that must add up to a tidy sum.
He was of course a brilliant scientist. By the way satan doesn’t even exist.
Reality vs. Fantasy: give me reality any time.
If you need to deny reality to make your religion feasible, then I guess your religion is in trouble.
Charles Darwin: Brilliant Scientist and Lord of the Dance
Great scientist. Knew how to throw a party, too… a less-talked-about result of “The Descent Of Man” was the phrase ‘party animal’.
Was he descended from Satan on his mother’s or father’s side ?
Actually, Darwin’s offer to become Satan’s agent was turned down when better offers came in from Michael Ovitz and the William Morris agency
A brilliant scientist. The very question is somewhat ridiculous.
Meticulous data collection, careful construction of conclusions, clear expression of ideas for the public understanding, openmindedness.
The very idea of Satan is pretty silly. Even if someone did believe in the notion – to consider Darwin an agent of Satan? Please – don’t be absurd
Charles Darwin was a brilliantly insightful scientist. The thing I admire about him the most was his conscious decision to make pubic his ideas knowing full well what a can of worms he was opening. That’s a courageous thing. For me the processes and implications of an evolutionary past are as wonderful and fascinating as any supernatural explanation that thousands of religions and cultures have produced. The icing on the cake for Darwin’s explanation is that it based on evidence. Lot’s and lots of it, and more and more of it keeps showing up.
I know, I know… most you creationists think that automatically gives me a chimpanzee like morality but it hasn’t kept me from having a darn good life.
Charles Darwin was a brilliant scientific agent of Satan!
Satan is Darwin’s second cousin on his mother’s side.
Yeah….I have to go with brilliant scientist on this one. Also every other biologist in the past couple centuries would have to be working for satan too….and I really dont see them getting any perks out of it.
Satan is imaginary, Darwin was not.
Great scientist. Lousy female impersonator.
“But it may surprise you (or dismay you) to learn I believe God was involved. That is ALL I will say on the subject.”
*points dramatically* Defend your views, deist coward!
This is really a simple matter. There’s mountains of evidence supporting evolution, and precisely zero evidence supporting a supernatural creator. Arguments from ignorance, e.g. “the universe is so complex, it must have been created by magic” are logical fallacies.
Please, be rational.
If by Satan you mean Pope Ratzinger (and who wouldn’t want to zing a rat), then Darwin was definitely not his agent. Darwin found he couldn’t believe the fairytales no matter how hard he tried, while Ratzinger depends on people believing the fairytales for his income.
Evolution? That question was answered scientifically a long time ago.
My theory is that the bible is the work of the devil. Nothing has damaged Christianity more than people trying to read sense into that hopeless mess of a book. Who is the harlot? The church on earth. All of them.
Well really I’m an atheist. But even if God exists I would rather face him as an atheist than as a christian.
Sawin is Dartan!
Charles Darwin was a brilliant scientific agent of Satan!
Darwin was a great scientist.
To equate today’s evolution with Darwin is like equating the Wright bros with the F22. 150years of science has made evolution much more than Darwin could ever imagine.
Lost? Ha! I know where I am in the universe, why I am here, I have much meaning in my life, and have no fear of death or of any displeasure by a makebelieve god, only of dying badly or before I am done with life.
Darwin applied the rules of science as described by Isaac Newton.
This of course makes Darwin an agent of the alchemist kabbalist heliocentrist Illuminati.
Brilliant man of great insight. He could not have been an agent of a mythical entity. Silly Silly Silly Question. Oh I guess you were just stirring… My mistake.
I give evolution two opposable thumbs up.
I side with the great revolution
in biology called “evolution”,
though poor old dear Charles
was greeted with snarls
by those who think myths a solution.
This question was answered 150 years ago, in Darwin’s favour. Do try to keep up, won’t you?
The Bronze Age; let it go.
Also, if Darwin hadn’t come up with his theory, someone else would have very soon.
How about Reserve Bank of Falwell U
Woops wrong thread
There is the weather: theories (explanations of observations that allow prediction, *not* mere ideas or conjecture) about how it works are debated, but no one would deny that weather happens. The economy is real: there are theories about how it works (none all that great yet) but it is there. There is gravity: we are working on theories to explain it, and have a way to go, but don’t drop an apple and expect it to float…
Evolution takes place. There are various theories that explain and predict details and precesses, but the day does not pass but that fossil, biochemical, and genetic evidence is collected that supports the general fact that all life on Earth — no matter how it first came into being — is derived from a common simple microbial ancestor.
Darwin was not perfect, and he was not right in everything he wrote (many evolutionary biologists don’t even bother to read all of “Origin” — it is not a sacred text), but there is no doubt that he was extraordinarily brilliant, hard working, and insightful.
“To think all humans came about from Adam and Eve is much harder to believe that we evolved from ape like creatures.”
Please folks, get educated…we did not evolve from ape-like creatures…
Humans ARE ape-like creatures. It’s nothing to be embarrassed about…
The scientific theory of evolution proposed by Darwin, and elaborated/developed upon for two centuries by countless scientists and other people of an objective nature.
Aww, I’ll play with you, Will. The “death bed conversion” story appears to have been fabricated by an evangelist calling herself “Lady Hope”. She claimed to have visited Darwin shortly before his death, and found him reading the Bible. His family accused her of making the story up. His daughter Henrietta, for example, said ““I was present at his deathbed. Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. . . . He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier.”
The full explanation can found all over the web, by googling ‘Darwin “Lady Hope”‘. Creationists might be most willing to trust the account at Answers in Genesis.
Charles Darwin was the son of God, disguised as Satan.
Just to add to what Mal Adapted touched on…
Even if Darwin had proclaimed the existence of a supernatural being on his deathbed (for which there is no satisfying evidence of such a proclamation) – this would not constitute satisfying evidence into the existence of such a supernatural being. It’s really a non-starter…
Brilliant Scientist or Agent of Satin?
The former of course!
Tailoring was his second career choice.
I do not think that Darwin was an evil man, but I think he was troubled man who chose to seek out answers through his study in nature rather seek answers from God who created nature. Darwin had many people in his life that shaped the way that he though about the world and science. many of the ideas that he wrote about were not even his original ideas. Some he got from his father.
I do not think Darwin himself was an agent of Satan, but he did say some pretty nasty things about black people – even went as far as calling them savages and compared them to apes.
Darwin meant well in his campaign, but if we are to look at real science we must look to Louis Pasteur, not Darwin. Evolution is not real. The odds of life coming from the ocean from non-life is impossible. The water itself would seperate a much needed bond for amino acids to stick together and formanything above an amino acid. Most amino acids will not stick together in salt water. Molecules to man evolution is impossible.
Darwin was a brilliant scientist whose work allowed great leaps in biology. “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.” –Theodosius Dobzhansky
Satan is an agent of manipulation by the strong over the weakminded using myth. Darwin and his kin like to lift the veil of ignorance.
Darwin are satans best friend, man supposed to be stupid thats why God made us this way dont question life just live it or you will be punished
Pretending that Satan exists is a little to much to ask of me. SO, I am only left with Darwin being a brilliant scientist. It is hard to believe people still fear the Devil like they did in the 1700′s.
I’m a PK, pastor’s kid, and have always loved science and religion. When I found there were people who felt you can’t love both without rejecting God, this bothered me greatly…especially that these people existed in such an insulated self-imposed vacuum–and choose to confuse others with literal Bible claims. Several decades later, after 3 masters degrees, I’m aware of how new medical treatments rely upon evolution…like your annual flu shots. I’m pretty sure we can park our beliefs in anything supernatural. Theology needs to be about the aspiration to become Christly and able to embrace everyone as a fellow child of God (and evolution). One explanation is biological, the other is spiritual. So, no, Darwin isn’t the agent of Satan. One never hears of Christians exorcism the Demon of Darwin, or at least I don’t. I suggest a book for Christians, “Darwin’s God”. The evolution of religion from Genesis through Acts doesn’t end up with a our First Century Christians walking around with a fixed set of scrolls, tablets and letters as The Bible. After Jesus’s Passion, the Bible isn’t ‘defined’ by Christians as ‘canon’ until a few Centuries later.
Teresa @ #132 said: “Great scientist. Lousy female impersonator.”
Sorry, T. I don’t agree. I always thought he was rather fetching in a smart skirt and blouse. He did have a tendency to wear too much makeup, but hey, a Devil woman’s gotta’ look her best doing the evolutionary drag.
Darwin wasn’t an agent of Satan – there is no such entity; nor is there a white-bearded, sadistic old pervert up in the clouds spying on our every thought and judging us by how much we assuage his insecurity by stroking his ego. You’re welcome to believe in pie in the sky bye and bye, just don’t try to cram it down my throat or confuse your superstitions with reality.
The fact is that humanity has probably “created” over a million gods since the stone age. I simply believe in the existence of one less god than christians, jews, muslims, or various other theists do.
Question for christians: Since there are between 18,000 and 25,000 flavors of christianity worldwide, all of which differ in their interpretations of how to get to heaven, which one actually offers the real roadmap to get you there?
Among “first world” nations, only in the US are there significant numbers of ignorant, superstitious people who refuse to accept scientific knowledge. Ask this question in almost any European country, in Australia or NZ, or even in Canada, and most of the people will laugh at you or pity you as a deluded fool. The consequences arising from religion coupled with stubborn ignorance have caused more problems in the US than terrorists could ever hope to.
Evolution denier -
I sure hope you’re playing dumb for lulz and aren’t really this ignorant, but hey, if it gives me a chance to play smart, I’ll bite.
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Empirical evidence, please? Us evolution accepters don’t like to just take people’s word for things.
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Which were rather mild and progressive for the time. The church taught that blacks (or any non-white) were a separately created, inferior race, their dark skin an indellible mark of sin. Regardless, a scientist’s personal beliefs or political correctness doesn’t determine whether or not his science is sound.
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Is irrelevant to the Theory of Evolution which starts with life already existing and explains biological diversity and how features of an organism can be “designed” via heritable variation and reproductive advantage or disadvantage. If you don’t know what evolution is to start with, how can you deny it?
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Yet, we each start from a single cell and build ourselves into a collection of billions of specialized cells that work together to make a distinct organism. How is “molecules to man” any less likely than “single cell to billions working together built from instructions in that original cell”?
If you’re not afraid to actually learn something, Evolution denier, you ought to read Richard Dawkins’ _The Blind Watchmaker_. He demolished, in detail, just about everything you brought up–and did it over 20 years ago!
Darwin was a great scientist. Theologically trained, the weight of the evidence, even in his time, was overwhelming that life on earth has evolved.
To any who disagree with the Evolutinary Theory, please read Jerry Coyne’s book [italic]Why Evolution is True[/italic]
After you have done this, if you still do not agree, stop by pharyngula and discuss it…
-Rogue
Grrr, it ate my quotes.
They were as follows:
“…God who created nature”
Empirical evidence, please? …
“Darwin…did say some pretty nasty things about black people”
Which were rather…
“The odds of life coming from the ocean from non-life…”
Is irrelevant…
“Molecules to man evolution is impossible.”
Yet, we each…
Darwin was a brilliant scientist. Not only does his theory of evolution provide a foundation for biology, but similar selection-based models have been valuable in numerous other sciences; e.g., immunology, brain development, psychology (learning, thinking, and evolutionary psychology). It is hard to think of a scientist who provided a more revolutionary, fertile, and wide-ranging theory.
Satan doesn’t exist. He’s a mythical being. Darwin could not possibly be an agent for Satan. He was a human scientist.
If you accept the idea that a god creature created life and/or directs evolution you must also accept that it can choose which if any diseases are present and how those diseases grow and the suffering that occurs to the victims. You must accept that a god creature made animals the do eat humans and other animals alive. Given the ability to control the development or creation of life on a planet I would certainly not create what we can observe on earth, I’m just not that evil and cruel.
No, there is no god creature that is directing life. Biological life is a natural process with natural processes that produce changes over very long time periods when viewed from a human perspective. However, as a species humans now have a real impact regarding the future of life on earth but, many are stuck on the idea that a god creature is pulling the strings. If that doesn’t change, so that we are able to accept our responsibility for the impact we have on the future, our offspring will suffer for the commonly held delusions of our time.
What @Beadknitter said.
So. Does this “Agent of Satan” job come with a badge and everything???
#145: “Also, if Darwin hadn’t come up with his theory, someone else would have very soon.”
Someone did come up with similar conclusions from observations of nature at about the same time as Darwin– Alfred Russel Wallace. That Darwin gets the credit is a fact for which I’m eternally grateful. Imagine having to try wrapping your tongue around “Wallacism”, “Wallacisistic”, and “Wallacisinian.”
Darwin taught us a lot about biology. Turning to an evolutionary explanation for the development of life was a step of profound importance in the development of biology.
As for Satan, we haven’t heard much new about him in quite a long time. Even a lot of people who believe in a god of some sort find the notion of a devil to be archaic and unfounded.
There is, however, a Miroslav Satan in the NHL. He’s a professional athlete, so he probably has an agent. I doubt that agent is named Darwin, though.
Satan. Just a poor devil?
(BOOMING VOICE) OK HUMANS! I Cannot take this infantile bickering any longer! THERE IS NO DOG!
And there was no son of dog EITHER!
Darwin’s contributions about evolution were good for science. His views on sky-daddies, either dimwittery or self-defense. I couldn’t say which, only that they were certain to be one or the other.
Religion is bunk. Highly attractive bunk tailored for the gullible, the lonely, and the unlucky. All you need to add to any combination of those is weak critical thinking, and bingo, you’ve built yourself a theist.
Can’t be fixed. Not really worth trying, either.
In September 2008, the Church of England issued an article saying that the 200th anniversary of his birth was a fitting time to apologise to Darwin “for misunderstanding you and, by getting our first reaction wrong, encouraging others to misunderstand you still” Better late than never. Oh, and Darwin was a brilliant scientists and an agent for Tupperware. Satan didn’t start producing their range of plastic containers until the 1960′s. I read it in the holey bibble, it must be true.
Darwin was a brilliant scientist, who happened to be a servant of Lucifer. Really folks, Old Red is not such a bad guy, and he’s much better in bed than Yahwey.
Any way Darwin =brilliant scientist+agent of Satan, but it isn’t a bad thing since Satan is swell in the sack 
Seriously, you’d think he’d be sick of missionary by now
Ok Seriously, who in their right mind still believes in magical demon people poking the “damned” in the ass with a pitchfork for all eternity anyway?
Assuming you equate knowledge and rational thought to EEEVULL, I would have to say that Darwin was a brilliant scientific agent of Satan.
Darwin just put two and two together. Really, evolution is just common sense.
The level of fanaticism needed to insist the scripture is so True that Darwin threatens this Truth amounts to idolatry anyway.
Brilliant? Hmm, he put together the pieces of a very simple idea which were laid out for all to see. It was inevitable that someone would put the parts together. He intended to publish a larger book on the subject posthumously had he not been asked his opinions on a similar idea by a young correspondent.
He was however sufficiently meticulous and knowledgable to assemble the evidence in so comprehensive a way as to crush the majority of non ideologically derived objections.
A patient and methodical scientist would be a better description.
Sorry, the devil was an idea the hebrews stole from Zoastrianim during the babylonian captivity. You can’t be the agent of a mythological figure.
This questions sets up a false opposition. A student of literature will tell you that from Dr Faustus onward it is perfectly possible to be both a brilliant scientist (or any kind of brilliant mind) and an agent or dupe of Satan,indeed it is generally that very brilliance which renders the soul vulnerable in the first place. Whereas a rationalist will tell you that there is no evidence that Satan exists to be served but just because the Devil does not exist does not mean that Darwin was therefore a brilliant scientist. From my admittedly rationalist perspective Darwin was a brilliant scientist who crafted his theories methodically and carefully, consulting with the best minds of his age and collecting a vast body of data to work from. The result was an elegant and subtle but simple theory that has underpinned the science of biology ever since. However the theory is not immutable, any more than Newton’s was, nor was he always correct in the details and mechanisms he posited – you’d think if his guiding hand was of the order of Satan then he might have tipped him off about genes. He gave us the theory of evolution. What mess has been made with it or about it is down to us, his inheritors, not him. We don’t curse the name of Nobel every time someone uses dynamite to put a bomb under someone’s car and any rue believer disturbed by the lack of dynamite in the Bible had still better not play with matches near a stick of the stuff.
Brilliant without a doubt, but hey since religion is a myth let’s get Adam and Jamie to do a number on it on mythbusters!
Now THAT would be a must see episode.
Darwin was indeed a brilliant scientist and there is no doubt his explanation of the evolutionary mechanism is essentially true. Personally, I see no need for any kind of supreme being. There’s no demonstrable evidence for the existence of gods, and if such a being existed, you’d reasonably expect to see something.
Look, it’s simple.
First, Satan saw the way things were going in terms of human innovation. God’s confounding the languagues upon seeing Babel was just a stopgap measure.
At this point, Satan began planting fossils and mutated species around the world as part of his plan. At the same time, he began matchmaking until several thousand years later with the birth of Charles Darwin he knew he had created the perfect agent.
The last stroke of Satan’s genius was to get Darwin on the Beagle — Darwin’s original plan was to spend a few years becoming a master whiskysmith in Ireland, which would have been a feat for the Englishman all on its own.
So like I said, the answer is simple: Darwin was an agent of Satan. QED.
Until and unless believers in Satan can furnish some credible evidence of that worthy’s existence, there is no basis for answering your question.
“The odds of life coming from the ocean from non-life…”
And we are 70% water because?
And IF god created “everything” why did he create “satan” in the 1st place? Was god bored? Or did he screw up? Or did he create “satan” on purpose?
The real question should be:
God… malicious, narcissistic, irresponsible all powerful being? Or made up nonsense?
Darwin was put on earth to test your faith!
Darwin was a devout christian and hesitated to publish his “an origin of species” because of its effect on the church. He did not just acknowledge god on his deathbed, he worshipped him through his life like any other Christian. He had even originally planned to become an Anglican minister before his voyage with the “beagle” and his enlightening texts. so I think he is pretty far away from being a Satanist
Im not getting into the whole “God” thing, but I did want to point out that Darwin was a good christian, which I cant say about very many people at all.
P.S. MR.Richard Harris, you read “descent of man” around the age of 9 or 10??? Go be smart somewhere else you jerk!
Darwin is God
One has to commend Evolution Denier for dipping toes into shark infested waters but trying to discredit Darwin ‘he did say some pretty nasty things about black people’ doesnt affect his theory. It is also only part of the Darwin story as he opposed slavery and there is evidence that his abolitionist views help to shape his theory.
Evolution is not a matter of “belief” nor is it a “belief system”. Asking if you “believe in evolution” is like asking if you believe in nuclear fission, chemical reactions, gravity or a spherical earth. While religion wants to relegate the origins of the universe, life and species to the spiritual (just as it has done in the past with the shape of the earth, its orbit and location in the universe), science looks at the evidence to find out what actually happened. Despite the misinformation from “creation science”, there is masses of evidence supporting evolution and none of this shows the slightest indication of an involved intelligence or divine intervention.
Basically, saying that you believe that a god was involved with evolution is like asserting Hulk Hogan was involved in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or that gravity is caused by elves with magnets. There simply is no evidence to support any of these assertions.
Everyone talks about how Darwin was this incredible genius. He was a great naturalist and keen observer of the animal kingdom. I guarantee that if Darwin would not of put 2 and 2 together, somebody else would have many times over. He was just the first. Darwin didn’t even know about dna. Just like Newton and Galileo, they started it but we have advance way beyond what they knew. So Darwin is not satan’s lacky. It’s time for people to grow up and stop being retards when it comes accepting scientific breakthroughs.
Well, either we evolved, or the Norse god Odin created us from the body of his grandfather Ymir. I’m not sure which one to choose … yes, actually I am.
OMFG, I can’t believe the very second comment is by some moron who believes the widely-debunked “deathbed conversion” story about Darwin. That was a lie made up by unscrupulous individuals who I guess thought that it would make people be nicer if they lied about the dead? I dunno…
And by the way, the “no atheists in foxholes” canard is highly offensive to the many nontheists who are willing to lay down their lives for their country.
Darwin made an enormous contribution to our understanding of the natural world. Who cares whether he was a genius or not. And I won’t bother to address the infantile idea that he was an agent of Satan. For those of you who would, grow up. An imaginary man in the sky does not decide what planes crash and one doesn’t just happen to cause tsunamis near tectonic plate margins. Humans aren’t worms; we can’t make sense of the world with our heads buried in mud.
Darwin was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to test our faith. Isn’t that obvious to everybody? And the Beagle was really his pirate ship. The powers that be just don’t want that to be known.
Darwin formulated a theory which scientists were able to further add to. His discovery contributed greatly to our knowledge of how modern life came to be. He was a brilliant man. A woman did claim he “rejected evolution and screamed for god” on his deathbed, but she was a fraud. The family had never heard of the woman, who were present at his death.
There is no God. Just superstitious bronze age dogma that some humans refuse to let go of.
Darwin was a brilliant scientist who got it quite nearly right. The theory has changed as more evidence has come to light. Invocations that “Darwin Was Wrong” are uninformed hype.
Dave @ June 8, 2009 @ 8:54 am says “I guarantee that if Darwin would not of put 2 and 2 together, somebody else would have many times over.”
Dave, I think you underestimate Darwin’s brilliance. The fact that he developed his theory based solely on morphological similarities and with no knowledge of the mechanisms of heritable characteristics is remarkable enough. However, he did much more than that. He also anticipated nearly every objection raised against the theory and provided plausible solutions was sheer genius. In particular, you owe it to yourself to go and read Darwin’s musings on the evolution of the human eye and on altruistic behavior in social insects. They’re at least a century ahead of their time!
Dan: If God didn’t do it, he must have had something to do with it. That’s all I’m saying.
God: Quit blaming me! I wasn’t anywhere near it or him!
Charles Darwin could take any of you Creationist wussies in a fight! His beard gave him magical powers. He was a robot from the future with double helices for hands and evolved eyes for eyes. He had an army of nanofinches and he won people over to the Dark Side by sending his nanofinches into their circulatory system so they could invade their brains and eat away their godboxes.
A demon straight from the very bowels of the deepest pit in hell. It is said that Darwin, when the profane Spirit of his Satanic Master came upon him, would set his sulphurous beard ablaze and dance naked around the dying carcass of a virgin goat staked down in center of a Pentacle drawn in it’s own blood.
But he was an excellent, practitioner of the sciences of his day and his legacy will remain for as long as there is science.
doov
Brilliant scientist of course. The difference being that Darwin actually existed, whereas Satan is a boogyman created by iron age apologists. Silly myths! Of course all the various gods are in the same non-existent boat, so at least he’s not lonely there.
how can someone be an agent of a make-believe bugbear used to scare kids (and some adults with the reasoning ability of a 5yo) into doing what’s right.
charles darwin, brilliant scientist.
Darwin was a super naturalist.
I never met Darwin so I don’t know if he was a brilliant man but his body of work would suggest that he was. On the other hand Satan is a false construct of the Catholic church, it isn’t real, just like angels, devils, vampires, and Leprechauns are not real. Despite what some people think there is such a thing as a dumb question and this is one of them. This is like asking if Einstein was a brilliant man or an agent of Darth Vader.
Hey A Noyd if you are not afraid to learn something how about reading The Holy Bible. it was written a lot longer than 20 years ago.
I know who Charles Darwin–arguably the most lucid of all scientists–was, but who the hell is Mr Satan? A pope or preacher or something abysmal like that??
Seriously, this is one of the worst false dilemmas I’ve ever seen.
All thinking above the level of god-botting is evil, and so all brilliant scientists are agents of Satan. The very fact that Darwin thought about how life changed and theorized about it, instead of chanting “goddidit” shows that he is a demon from the pit of hell.
Especially, you have to realize that if no one ever thought, we’d all believe in the gods, so no evil atheists would exist. The pretense that you can be a brilliant scientist without being an agent of Satan is what disturbs me.
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Trick question… Darwin is God
The holy bible is a worn out rag, give it a rest.
Darwin was a staunch believer in his early years, but was, at best, a Deist in the end. The lie about his deathbed conversion has been debunked thoroughly and repeatedly.
He was a pioneer (among many others of his time( and his work laid the foundation for much of today’s biological and medical science.
Among the many results of his work was the notion that no god or gods were _needed_ for life to be what it is. And that point remains true today.
There is no god ergo there is no satan, although one has to admit that plenty of evolved human beings have used both to dupe millions into using any means possible to attain power over others. Read this news site: murder, rape, abuse, starvation, suicide, terror. The list is as long as the years man has been on earth.
Darwin was a brilliant man who explicated a brilliant theory.
Darwin = Brilliant thinker. Evolution = brilliant explanation.
Theory A: Charles Darwin went aboard a ship, brought back specimens of finches, determined that species may decend from common ancestors, and the world has benefitted greatly from the discovery–especially in the area of medicine, once DNA and mutations were discovered.
Theory B: The king of hell decided to employ a lowly British guy on a ship and brought him before finches so that he would one day write a book that would make people believe God and Satan do not exist, because it mainly stated things which were plainly observable.
Why is there even a shred of room for debate here? Anyone seriously arguing for Theory B should be laughed out of whatever room they’re in.
Definatly Agent of Satan.
Earth was created 7 days ago. Man was born yesterday.
God is resting now. Shhh.
Darwin was a brilliant man. He could not have possibly been an agent of Satan as no such entity logically exists.
“Foolish man! Don’t you know?
Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb”: Spaceballs, the Movie
Says it all, wouldn’t you say!
Evolution and God are both ideas created by humans.
The difference is, evolution has proven to be correct.
What is really eye-opening is that the majority of the bloggers on this thread do not believe in God, nor do they believe in Jesus Christ, who was God in human form, died on that cross to take away the sins of mankind and was resurrected from death and lives at this very moment.
Those of you who do not believe this fact are children of the devil, who is satan, and satan will take you out only with permission from God Himself.
Today is the day of salvation…not on your terms and not when you feel like it. TODAY!!!
How sad when I read in the obituaries that people “have now entered into heaven”…or something like that when the truth is that the majority of them are in hell….because they chose to not accept the gift of salvation from God…through His shed blood.
Just believe in me, Santa. You don’t have to believe in Darwin, but unless you are a fool or an idiot you should recognize Evolution is a historical and scientific fact. There is no evidence of any god, but I brought you presents when you were a child, didn’t I. So just believe in me and learn about Evolution and all is right with the world.
Freedom #221:
Has it occurred to you that people who don’t believe in the Abrahamic god are not especially concerned with their salvation? You may as well be a mad AI offering us cake.
Freedom in jebus:
Provide your evidence. For any of that garbage you spouted. A single contemporary account for the events surrounding jebus. A single shred of actual evidence for your god.
Then we can discuss the ridiculousness of a blood sacrifice of self to self to satisfy self for crimes against self commited by creations of self.
I repudiate the sacrifice, I deny it as a real event or even a real sacrifice, come on, really, jebus had a bad afternoon and jumped back to heaven.
If your bigoted evil god were real I would reject him to his face for his horrid actions and requirements. I do not support a scape goating old misogynistis sky daddy.
The bible is the work of simpletons for simpletons and if your parents and their parents had not been adherents you wouldn’t be either.
Grow out of your bronze age mythology FFS. America is a laughing stock because of the dog-botherers.
Darwin was brilliant, Satan is a myth.
Well well, another decision someone has to make about being stupid or not. Since that idiot santa, or satan or whatever you folks feed it was an agent of one dim witted muffin, I have to cast my vote for Darwin. At least he didn’t say anything stupid.
Freedom in Jesus Christ…
I think we’ve finally encountered Poe Law…. just. To be honest, to have 200 and some posts from a paper published in the Roanoke valley before we got that point is rather amazing. Thank you Pharyngulites for bringing the power of reason to our fundagelical metropolis..
DARWIN IS AGENT OF SATAN! READ BIBLE, ITS FACT. All you going to hell becuse you don’t accept GOD IS REAL AND HE EXCISTS! Only studip people dont beleve in him! Evolution has bean proven wrong because the BIBLE says GOD made the EARTH! DARWIN AND ALL SCIENTIST OUR JUST SATAN HENCHMEN!! All they want is lie to you! They are hiding from TRUHT IN GOD!
Babblover = Poe.
42 was the give away. Seriously though Douglas would be proud. The mispellings almost made me doubt it. It looked like a real godiditite wrote it.
Darwin was an very gifted thinker and amateur scientist who had, among many insightful thoughts, one of the greatest insights of biology (or any other science): He figured out evolution by natural selection. He missed the mechanical details due to the technical limitations of his time; but he got the correct answer.
“Those of you who do not believe this fact are children of the devil, who is satan, and satan will take you out only with permission from God Himself.”
That’s the most psychotic thing I’ve heard today.
“How sad when I read in the obituaries that people “have now entered into heaven”…or something like that when the truth is that the majority of them are in hell….because they chose to not accept the gift of salvation from God…through His shed blood.”
Belay that last remark…
VVarlock – my, my, my, such hostility. I hope you change your mind before you have to appear before God. He still loves you even if you refuse to acknowledge Him.
Well now, this blog thread conveniently highlights why I shun anything considered to be religious and just live my life. I will do things I consider to be spiritual, but I refuse to get into a “you’re wrong and going to hell” mindset that permeates far too much of the population.
On another note, congrats Dan…you have sufficiently stirred the pudding, as my faviroite radio host Neal Boortz would say. Job well done! I’ve just sat back and read the comments, with equal parts head shaking and uncrontrolled laughing. I honestly thought we weren’t supposed to judge others, but my, my…there’s a lot of gavel banging going on in here.
Other John,
Thank you OJ. Indeed!
Satan is imaginary, like god, the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. Which leaves answer A, “A brilliant scientist.”
I believe in noodlistic evolution. Sure, microevolution has been observed. Speciation is also documented. The plausibility of all life sharing a common ancestor without the Flying Spaghetti Monster noodling about in their genome is low, in my opinion.
#224 I am sorry to report that, on this side of the pond, we do find it endlessly amusing that otherwise intelligent people cling to primitive beliefs. Posts #221 & #227 do not help. Thankfully, in GB, there is virtually no creation movement, nobody objects to evolution in schools (how could they it is a fact) few have heard of ID and politicians almost never refer to religion.
Smug Harry
p.s. re #208 why are we likely to learn more from old books than newer books? In most fields the newer book is more accurate because more information is available to the author. It is only the strange grip that religion has on people’s minds that enables them cling to a piece of self-contradictory, inaccurate, politically-motivated babble.
If the opportunity comes I will gladly list my grievances against him to his face.
I will trot out the list of his lies, insanity, terrorism, genocide, misogyny, bigotry, hypocrisy and the same and worse done in his name by those who follow him. I never asked for an innocent to be tortured for my ‘sins’ and I repudiate the entire act and deny the alleged need for it. Your god is evil for assigning guilt to me based upon the actions of an alleged ancestor thousands of years ago.
For that matter, the entire concept of Hell is the single most evil concept which has ever been created. There can never be a legitimate justification for infinite, unending punishment for crimes committed in a finite life by a mortal. Christianity and its gods may deserve infinite torment but no mortal can ever earn it.
I believe a Ghandi said some thing like “I like your Christ, but I do not like your christians, they are so unlike your christ.”
I will go one further and say that for an all-knowing being Jesus sure F&*k@d it up badly. Imagine if he had really been an all-knowing and all-loving being. All he would have had to do is say “By the way, stop slavery. Owning people is BAD, knock it off and while we are at it, leave the libraries alone… you know who you are… leave them alone I say.”
I imagine then that christianity would have actually been a boon upon our world, despite the other faults and failings in the teachings of jebus.
VVarlock
He was a brilliant scientist, and in the sense that Christians view anything that can lead you away from God as Satan, Darwin might be the best agent of Satan ever. His theory is what finally made it possible to ditch Deism and embrace out and out naturalism.
God: Imaginary friend or dangerous delusion?
How absolutely shocking, but not surprising, to see just about everybody who posted are not Christians; you stand on your own strength, you do not believe in God nor His plan of redemption through Jesus Christ.
What is even more shocking is knowing that probably most of you sit in church every Sunday.
You can believe this my friends, God will not be mocked. You will stand before Him one day right before you are cast into hell.
Do you not understand that we are in a spiritual battle? satan is a spirit. do you not understand that???
For our battles are against the spirits and principalities, not against man.
It is my considered opinion that the modern evolutionary synthesis is substantially accurate. Indeed, it appears to me that natural selection is as inevitable a process as supply and demand.
DonC – i was merely asking a question. i really do not know what darwin did on his death bed. do you have proof. o by the way jumpimg to conclusions and calling me clueless, that’s so pagen of you. and
James Sweet – thanks for calling me a moron. i am sure you were there and saw exactly what happened.and by the way, how many foxholes have you been in?
the first four letters of your comment illustrate your mindset.
My fellow creationists:
Be very careful. This site has been infiltrated with mindless pharyngulites who love to trash Christianity but cannot stand to be trashed themselves. The can dish it out but they cannot take the heat.
Be very careful, for these God deniers at Pahryngula are an extremely dangerous breed of left wing extremists. They often show up at polls intent on crashing them. They hate capitalism, Christianity, or anything elese that promotes freedom but undeniably promotes socialism without recognizing the negative effects thereof. These people are extremely dangerous tom society. Secular humanism and left wing extremism is growing somewhat, but at least we can feel a hint of relief knowing that we Christians win in the end anyway.
Brilliant Scientist!
Oh, F in JC,
Do you really think that atheists sit in church every Sunday? How far do your delusions go?
Evolution Denier,
You’re not much of a reader are you? The original blog post welcomes Pharyngula readers to this site.
Denier:
As a Pharyngulite I challenge your baseless assertion. I am a Fiscal conservative and Social Moderate. In the past 18 years I have voted for about equal parts republican/independent and democrat. I have recently been turned off of the Republican party due to the overt abusive religiousity of the Falwellian Reich who seem to have stolen the party from actual conservatives. They and their revisionist tactics are offensive to anyone who knows anything about actual American history.
Pure socialism does not work and pure capitalism does not work (by the way America has not been a purely capitalist society for most of this century). I am no socialist and I bear no hate to capitalism either.
I am a Secular Humanist but nowhere near the ‘left-wing’.
And that self-serving smugness rests only in belief. You have no actual evidence to support your belief.
I should have come up with a scam where millions of people had to do what I say and give me their money but the rewards I promise came only after they all died and were subsequently unverifiable. What a racket.
And since when does christianity promote freedom? FFS.
Have you actually read the bible?
Because I have and it not only says believe without evidence, it says believe without reservation or evidence while ignoring your logical mind if you want not to be tortured for eternity for crimes in a limited life. (More than millions of years in HELL for everything you could do in a 60 year life span? Even if you were Charlie Manson that is an evil concept and I would say you could not deserve that). This is mental slavery just like the physical real slavery promoted by/supported in the bible (OT and NT).
Neither Christianity nor capitalism promote freedom. You sound like you work for FAUXNEWS. Read a book.
Degenerate Darwin: Insultor of Apes
Some questions for all you folks who hate God, who know nothing about God and throw your fists in His face –
1) Do you think you are going to heaven when you die?
2) How do you know?
3) What assurance do you have that you will live in heaven eternally?
4) Do you think you can live your life and control your life by your own strength?
You answer these questions truthfully please.
BTW echidna: to answer your question, yes there are folks who are nonbelievers in Jesus Christ and what He did for us that sit in church every Sunday. They do not believe in the divine deity of Jesus Christ, nor His divine conception or divine resurrection.
Sadly, some folks even think that if they do a lot of good things they will go to heaven.
Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; whosoever believeth in Me shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
The Scripture also says that with true repentence and accepting Jesus Christ ends condemnation. Thus, there is the freedom given through Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to heaven. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.
Lots of preaching, nothing to actually respond to the horror that is your religion.
1,2+3 No one is going to heaven, it is fictional, like hell and it is just as vile a concept as hell. Eternity without end just to blissfully praise the universal dictator. Don’t forget the best passtime there, looking down at their loved ones in hell.
4 Yes, with the help of my friends and loved ones I live my life without the help of any cosmic dictator. I live my life morally with all due respect for my fellow citizens (not necessarily their ID-iotic views or actions but them as people at least) and creatures.
Actually a PEW poll recently showed that somethign like 30% of American Christians think that ATHEISTS can get into heaven. Do not marginalize a sizable minority of your cult with disparaging tones like “some folks”.
Again I ask with foreknowledge of the lack of response. Provide your evidence. Actual evidence for your god, your heaven. Hell just provide an actual contemporary account of Jesus Christ son of god who came back from the dead and awoke hundreds of zombies to walk the town with him.
You would doubt your child (whom you know, love and can touch and question) if they said they saw a single zombie raised, but you believe in the words of a stranger 1900 years dead when they make even more ludicrous claims.
Examine your beliefs. Are they a special case? Does your REASON act differently for your christianity than for your jury duty? I hope so, but if it does, this is Cognitive Dissonance.
1: No, there is no heaven
2: Because there is no evidence
3: See #1 & 2
4: I help my family, friends, community, country and I expect the same from them. Basically the golden rule.
There is no heaven. I don’t hate what doesn’t exist. I hate the waste of time, resources and lives in the pursuit of worship and grovelling to a make-believe god.
FiJC,
I am curious, what would motivate an atheist to sit in church on a Sunday? Is the community pressure so strong where you are, that there is no freedom of religion?
Also, why do you think that we Pharyngulites hate god? Do you hate Odin? I imagine you don’t even consider the issue, because he doesn’t exist except in folklore. Now apply that once more, recognising that there is no more evidence for the god of Israel than there is for the Norse gods.
Now if there were even the slightest evidence that your God existed, I could understand your attitude. But there is no evidence. There is no contemporary evidence for Jesus. There isn’t even evidence for Kings David and Solomon. To be frank, the threat posed to your beliefs by evolution is the least of your problems.
Let’s assume for the moment that the biblical account of Jesus is accurate.
How can you explain the huge mistake that Jesus made, choosing and instructing his disciples in the Law over several years, only to have their teachings on Jewish Law minimised and overturned by Paul, who had never actually met Jesus. Jesus is clear: not one iota of the law is to pass away. The sermon on the mount exhorts the listener to control thoughts as well as actions, to attain perfection. But to Paul, aiming for perfection is impossible, can only lead to sin, and as the wages of sin is death, then the law is to be ignored.
You are wrong if you think atheists know nothing of the bible. Most of us have read the book, in depth and detail. We realise that organised religion is basically a tool for social control, and for some pastors, a great way to get money and power from gullible fools. Don’t get me started on child abuse by the clergy. By their fruits you shall know them.
My advice to you: if you need to deny reality to make room for your religion, then something is wrong. If God is real, reality will reflect Him, and there is no need to deny reality. Science is a way of looking at reality, where ideas need to fit the observations rather than the other way around. If science threatens your beliefs, it is not science that is at fault.
Christianity is not what you think it is. I challenge you, when you are given a verse and told it means a particular thing, read the whole chapter. Better yet, read the whole book (e.g. Acts, Matthew, etc.) More often than not, you will find that the verse is being misrepresented. When you realise how badly you have been lied to, then you will understand the atheists on Pharyngula.
Hi everyone! I just ran in to Dr. Myers’s reference to this thread, and 256 comments is a hefty chunk of reading. But I imagine my fellow pharygulites have done a fair enough job supporting our side. So, if this point has been made, either explicitly, or indirectly elsewhere on the page, forgive me.
The whole debate really boils down to two (and I would contend, mutually exclusive) frameworks for knowing about the world in which we live. The first is unbiased. It involves observing things. You could add to that measuring, but ultimately, that is just a more specific kind of observing. After we have observed and measured, we try to come up with some prediction. Then tests are designed that will either support or refute the predictions made. If they support them, then perhaps we’re a step closer to better understanding, until some future, better designed test ultimately refutes it.
The alternative – much simpler. Read an old book, and accept as truth every word within. The only complication comes when (inevitably), an observation is made that challenges the truth. Then, the observation is sensored, twisted, manipulated, or in some other way perverted so that it no longer challenges the truth, thus knowledge and understanding are perfect from beginning to end; it is only reality that must twist to fit it.
My personal preference – to take the former path. Yes, it only asymptotically approaches “THE TRUTH”, but I can rest assured that progress is continually being made, and I can know that future generations will benefit from untruths that are eventually discarded as better observations and tests are made.
I think the reason I have so many problems with organized religion, well…really the practitioners thereof, is the pushing of the ‘our way is the only way’ mantra. As soon as that line is mentioned, I pretty much lose interest in whatever else the person has to say because it immediately creates an antagonism, an us versus them mentality that is completely counterproductive. If a person is of a certain religion and openly shares their beliefs with people willing to listen, and they share insights of how their religious beliefs help to guide them through life and how it has helped them be a better person and deal with the day-to-day troubles of life, then that’s great and I completely respect that. In fact, I’ve learned a great deal from people of numerous faiths who have spoken with me in such a respectful manner.
I have numerous friends of different faiths spanning from Baptist, Catholic, and Methodist to Muslim, Buddhist, and Pagan. Despite the variety of beliefs, they all are very good people who would go out of their way to help me or anyone else, they show the utmost respect to their fellow humans even if they believe differently, and they all live what they believe without trying to impose what they believe upon others. They all also openly share various facets of what they believe when asked, but don’t force it upon anyone.
Live what you believe to show others the benefits of your faith. Share what you believe with a willing audience. But please, quit the condemnation and judgement of people who believe differently than you do. It only serves to help you sound closed-minded and hateful toward others…and any such final judgements will be left up to whatever God the other person believes in. The fire and brimstone threats don’t help the cause.
God has put eternity into the hearts of all men.
All of nature proclaims the glory of God.
Jesus Christ fulfilled all the laws when He went to the cross and was crucified; we now live in the Gospel Age.
The Holy Bible is the inerrant, inspired and God-breathed word of God, put in writing through the power of the Holy Spirit.
God reveals Himself to all men; it is your choice to accept Him or not.
A relationship with Jesus Christ is a personal and profound committment of a person to Him.
Those of you who do not believe in the Creator, Almighty God, deny His existence and deny His Son Jesus Christ who was made the propitiation of sin leveled upon mankind by the original sin, which was disobedience of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden; you will stand before Holy God one day and answer for your actions.
Every human being is a sinner…every day and in every way, by thought, word and deed. Praise God that the one and only Savior of mankind took these sins upon Himself so that I would not have to pay that price.
I will pray for you all. You are in the throes of satan and your words prove it. Satan’s biggest lie is that he does not exist and that you are equal to Holy God…that is what satan believed also right before he was removed from heaven.
Satan’s goal is to destroy all that God has created and take as many people to hell as he can find; you are falling right into his hands my friends.
We believe by faith, we trust in God by faith, we live for God by faith and trust in Jesus Christ who died for our sins.
God’s truth has been revealed to all men so that there is no excuse; only your choice to deny Him, thus you are self-condemned already.
That is the truth and the whole truth; Jesus Christ paid our sin-debt in full by shedding His blood for us so that those who believe Him should not have to pay that debt.
Because the world hates Jesus Christ, the world also hates all who believe and follow Him.
Darwin’s legacy is clear. All living organisms share a common heritage. Evolution, micro, macro, whatever obviously happens. It’s all around us. The quibbling about what Darwin knew or didn’t know, what he guessed or misunderstood, is futile and a waste of time. Yes I understand and accept the theory of evolution as the primary explanation for the natural world around me just as I accept Electro-Magnetic Field theory which explains radio & TV, light, x-rays & infared! Both fit the facts. Both explain repeatable experimental results. Both model the natural world very well. And both are testable! If you can come up with a better theory explaining electro-magnetic radiation, and can prove it, then a whole lot of text books will be rewritten. Similarly if you can come up with a better theory explaining the world around us, that is testable & verifiable & you can prove it then similar results will happen. But asserting that Darwin’s Theory is wrong just cause you say so is NOT testable nor verifiable. It’s just your opinion. Probably based on faith which by it’s very nature is neither testable (“Thou shalt not test the Lord Thy God”) nor verifiable. My observation is Darwin was right on all critical points and the things he missed are relatively minor or were technologically unknown/unprovable at the time.
Comment by will — June 5, 2009 @ 2:55 pm
“i do remember reading somewhere that he acknowledged God on his death bed”
This was exposed as a lie. Look it up.
“(there are no atheist in foxholes so to speak).”
*Sigh*
>”i have heard scientist speak who started out trying to disprove creationism through science and wound up believers of the very thing thing they set out to disprove because of the overwhelming evidence.”
>” … creationism … overwhelming evidence.”
ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL
Hey Other John,
I agree with you about the condemnation and judgment that many religious folk share. It took me a while to find faith in Jesus and one of the reasons is the very often pushy way people “sell” their religion. I’ve been taught that the best way to lead people to Christ is the live a life that is a good demonstration of how the Bible teaches us to live (something that we all strive for and may fall short of, but that’s OK).
In relation to your “our way is the only way” comment. There is only one way to Heaven and that’s through Jesus, it just may take some people a long time to find that path with judgmental tactics that only push people away.
Elliot
Will (208)
“Hey A Noyd if you are not afraid to learn something how about reading The Holy Bible. it was written a lot longer than 20 years ago.”
-Who says I haven’t? When I read the Bible I learned that it was a mess of contradictory and repetitive myths that have little to no bearing on modern life and the parts that are relevant are not unique to Judaism or Christianity. My point to Evolution denier was that his arguments are 20 years out of date. The age of the Bible alone hardly means that it ought to be a more compelling resource.
Harry (237)
“Thankfully, in GB, there is virtually no creation movement, nobody objects to evolution in schools (how could they it is a fact) few have heard of ID and politicians almost never refer to religion.”
-No, you fellows just sue the pants off people for daring to point out that alternative medicine is a load of hooey! Go rewrite your libel laws while we boot our creationists out of office.
VVarlock (238)
-/applause
Freedom in Jesus Christ (241)
“What is even more shocking is knowing that probably most of you sit in church every Sunday.”
-Why on earth would we waste our time doing that? I certainly have better things to do with my Sundays.
(253) “The Scripture also says that with true repentence and accepting Jesus Christ ends condemnation. Thus, there is the freedom given through Jesus Christ.”
-Back in the real world, threatening people with an ultimatum that promises eternal torture is the very opposite of freedom.
(259, 260)
-Blah blah blah blah. Get it through your head: we’re not going to take your word for it or the Bible’s word for it or any preacher’s word for it. We demand some evidence beyond just words. And by evidence, we mean something that cannot be as easily used to support some other explanation. Preaching at us or praying for us does absolutely zero without that evidence. Less than zero–your repeated inability to provide us with what we ask shows your position as untenable. And you should value this sort of evidence yourself as the person you’re preaching to might otherwise be convinced of the “truth” of Islam or Hinduism or Scientology by equally passionate preachers of those faiths.
The bible teaches that parents should murder children and children should murder parents and that fathers should send their daughters to be raped.
Christianity is a disgusting fantasy.
I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the true creator of the universe. Those who do not believe in IT are lost souls condemned to an eternity devoid of pasta. I believe that IT gave us pirates to carry on IT’S message.
Those who believe in that other God – Jehovah, Yahwey, Allah or whatever you call that imaginary being are just fooling yourself. Learn the path of the FSM and you’ll be saved!
Freedom in Jesus Christ
“The Holy Bible is the inerrant, inspired and God-breathed word of God, put in writing through the power of the Holy Spirit. ”
Like This
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
“If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.”
See, I know GOD is a complete hard ass about sex, but I can’t throw these stones. If that the morality that YOU say is GOD’s word, I’ll have none it. I think the moral thing here is to prosecute the man for forcibly having sex (raping) the woman.
God’s word is living and true and requires His help through the Holy Spirit to understand it.
It is absolutely heartsickening to see how many people are lost. But God is patient and He knows the hearts of all mankind. I believe with all my heart that there are some of you that will eventually come to salvation one day…but then again this is only known by God.
He is always working in the hearts of men to lead them to the truth. You see, denying Him is proof of free-will.
You look at all of nature and you see God in everything because He is our Creator.
“To the lost and perishing, God’s word is foolishness.”
One more point I would like to share with you all.
Even satan and his demons know who Jesus Christ is; satan knows more about the Holy Word of God than most humans do.
When Jesus cast out the demons from a man who was inhabited severely by the demons, they (the demons) cried out to Jesus not to cast them into hell before it was time; thus the demons were cast into a herd of swine who then ran into the sea and drowned…read it for yourselves in the New Testament four gospels.
The demons know who Jesus Christ is and shudder at what awaits them in the end.
So, if satan and his demons know who God is and who Jesus is then why do you deny Him?
Of course, Mev…that’s assuming the English translation of ‘relations’ is meant to imply rape. It could just mean any consensual relationship as well, in which case the Bible is advocating death by stoning of any person who engages in similar acts. Such a loving and kind religion.
So, if satan and his demons know who God is and who Jesus is then why do you deny Him?
I don’t often see an argument from authority where the authority is Satan.
Obvious answer: Because Satan and demons are just as nonexistent.
Other John…since you and most of the other posters on here have absolutely no understanding of the Holy Bible, you therefore would not understand that punishments of such magnitude for certain crimes was the law of the land in those days.
Yo Freedom In Christ,,
What makes you think atheists haven’t read the Bible? I tossed out some scripture for you and you babbled on about how hard it is to understand. Again, I don’t accept a morality that would require me to put to death a woman or a man for having relationship particularly and most certainly if the woman was raped. Would you?..
Warlock:
Denier:
As a Young Earth creationnistI challenge your baseless assertion. I am a Fiscal and social conservative. I have voted democrat in the past. I have recently been turned off of the Democratic party due to the overt abusive anti-Christian and anti-traditional American values of the Al Gore environut Reich who seem to have stolen the party from actual Democrats. They and their revisionist tactics are offensive to anyone who knows anything about actual American history.
Pure socialism does not work and pure capitalism does work .I am no socialist and defy all socialist regimes wherever they may occur.
I am a creationist /conservative American and proud to be a “right wing extremist”.
You have no actual evidence to support your belief in darwinian evolution.
I should have come up with a scam where millions of people had to do what I say and give me their money but the rewards I promise came only after they all died and were subsequently unverifiable. Global warming -What a racket!
Like This
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
“If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.”
Hello Mev…in answer to your question above regarding Deut 22:23-24
These Scriptures come from the marriage violations in that chapter.
You did not finish verse 24 of that chapter. The rest of the verse states this…..”You must purge the evil from among you.”
This is what people who do not understand the Bible does…they take certain verses out of context to try and provide an argument against the truth.
They also take Scriptures out of context to suit themselves or try to justify their behavior.
Freedom, I would suggest to you that NOT ONLY do people who do not understand the Bible take Scriptures out of context, but people who DO understand the Bible do it as well, and for all sorts of reasons that serve their interests and/or the arguments they are pushing at the time.
Furthermore, I would suggest that it is very, very difficult to understand the Bible. I find it so difficult that I’m skeptical of anyone who claims to understand it. I am very wary of such people. And just fyi, that indicates not any kind of bias against Christians. They are not the only ones who claim to understand the Bible.
Finally, allow me to pose this question: Do you believe Ghandi is in hell? This is a serious question.
Golly, now I’m gonna have to start a socialist vs. capitalist thread!
“I believe God was involved.”
Why? There’s certainly no “evidence”. And “agent of Satan” is simply silly. If Darwin was an “agent of Satan”, then all scientists are too and we really should go back to the Dark Ages.
Ha ha! People actually believe in Satan!!! Unbelievable. Literally impossible to believe in something so childish.
Freedom in Christ…
You didn’t answer my question. I know the scripture I lifted and its context. The question I would have is would you act out on God’s word and punish the man and woman he raped by killing them? Is this how you would purge the evil?
“…NOT ONLY do people who do not understand the Bible take Scriptures out of context, but people who DO understand the Bible do it as well, and for all sorts of reasons that serve their interests and/or the arguments they are pushing at the time.”
So then you get to agree or disagree with people’s interpretations based on, essentially, how comfortable it makes you feel or how well it aligns with your own personal beliefs?
“… it is very, very difficult to understand the Bible. I find it so difficult that I’m skeptical of anyone who claims to understand it. I am very wary of such people. And just fyi, that indicates not any kind of bias against Christians. They are not the only ones who claim to understand the Bible.”
Continuing my point from the previous snippet. It sounds like a convenient way to reinforce your own beliefs without actually attempting to learn anything. No one can be an authority! Yay! You can’t challenge my point of view!
Not to mention the fact that I largely agree with you in a way: theology is all made up anyways, the study of imaginary things will by definition generate more imaginary products. As a study of literature, or the mindset of a subset of peoples at the time, it is something interesting and informative. As a way to live, or a reason to castigate and discriminate against others based on sexuality or race or gender, it is not valuable at all.
Finally, allow me to pose this question: Do you believe Ghandi is in hell? This is a serious question.
Of course he isn’t. Of course he is. Depends what you believe. If you happen to believe in Hell, I feel sorry for you.
I definitely do not have the understanding of it that a scholar or person who reads it continuously (nor have I claimed it either), but I have learned enough from reading it to know that most often, its verses are plucked and used widely out of the context for what the chapter or book seem to indicate to me. That’s my main problem with the way people use the Bible today, they grab a snippet and then use it for whatever suits them…not unlike how people will conduct a 2 hour interview and then clip out all but a few lines and turn what seemed like an innocent exchange into something with a sinister meaning behind it. Now, I’m not saying that Christians have sinister intents, just using that as an example. I’ve also tried reading the translation of the Qur’an, and had an equally difficult time with reading it, though it makes more sense to me overall. What I take the Bible for is a good collection of stories and lessons to be learned to help guide one’s life, not as literal hard fact or history. Many passages of what are in the Qur’an are not in conflict with evolutionary thought, and actually compliment and dovetail nicely into scientific knowledge of today, which I find remarkable since it was revealed to an illiterate tribal tradesman with no substantial background or knowledge in science.
Freedom in jesus christ,
Would you and/or have you killed a man and/or a woman as the bible (as per you, the word of your god idea) instructs you to? Why or why not?
Are you an atheist in regard to god ideas other than your christian based god idea? Why or why not?
Are you afraid of going to your hell idea? Why or why not?
That doesn’t change the meaning of what was quoted, it simply makes your god idea more disgusting.
To comment on your post, Dan….I have stated before in another post or two that to understand the Holy Bible requires God’s help and the power of the Holy Spirit; otherwise, they are just words without any clue of understanding.
To answer your question about Ghandi…first of all let me say this first…no human being knows the state of one’s heart at their point of death…..only God knows if Ghandi asked forgiveness and accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior.
Secondly and most importantly, Ghandi was not divine, neither is Buddha, neither is Mohammed and neither are anyone else. The only ONLY divine human being was God himself who came to earth in human flesh as Jesus Christ, who was then empowered with the Holy Spirit, was crucifed, died and was then lifted up in resurrection and made alive again by the Father, who is Almighty God.
This is what God says about it….”For God so loved the world that he gave His one only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son……John 3:16-18
Now according to what God says…if Ghandi did not believe that Jesus Christ is God’s one and only Son, who gave His life a ransom for ALL sins of mankind, who is the fulfullment of God’s plan of salvation at the moment of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden….then Ghandi’s fate is as God said…condemned to hell.
God created mankind in His own image, that of the spirit…we are in a spiritual battle on this earth between satan and his demons and eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Until and unless there is a renewal and complete change of heart, there is no personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
God knows who will be saved and those who will not….He calls us to salvation through conviction of sinful nature and our need and desire for help, which by the way cannot be attained through the self, nor through any good deeds.
Salvation is a gift from God, offered freely and without condition, to the spiritually lost and helpless to save ourselves.
My testimony to you and others is this…..I have been where a lot of folks are now…nontrusting, doubting, living my life by my own desires and wants…but then a marvelous thing happened…I was struggling emotionally, spiritually and physically…I asked God’s help and He helped me to know Him.
Praise God for His powerful and abiding love.
Dan…do not listen to satan’s lies about how “good” you are or how you can do anything you want to, listen to the still small voice of God and ask His help in your life…it is indescribable and uplifting.
Blessings to you and all.
To answer Mev’s question about the Scripture from Deut..
No I would not kill and man and woman or anybody else who did evil things.
Why?…because first of all, God said that we are to obey all laws of the land…which is why our government has laws regarding many things.
Secondly, vengence belongs to God…not to mankind. Take for instance that man who killed that doctor in Kansas…or any number of murders going on today…it is not OUR duty nor right to kill anyone out of anger and hatred…and by the way this has nothing to do with self-defense…murder is a matter of the heart, which is why those who murder others out of anger and hatred should stand before a jury of his peers…and if they find him guilty and impose sentencing according to the laws of the land, then so be it.
Vengence belongs to God and God only.
It does not suprise me that the resident Fundagelical is a supporter of the concept of Hell. I hope that every christian out there who considers themselves a reasonable person will really evaluate the concepts inherent in their belief.
I was a moderate protestant christian for many years, raised in the tradition. I was exposed to ID-iocy and Fundamentalism later but saw those too. What turned me away was actually reading the bible, cover to cover. There is a reason that most christians are not encouraged to read the whole bible. The seperate and disjointed reading style encouraged by almost every denomination is not only to prepare the adherents for the next sermon, but to keep them reading the ‘right’ sections. The Church (in all its many forms) does not want you to actually read it and think about it. The bloody butchery of Joshua, the horror of the story of Lot and the foolishness of the creation myth are reason enough to doubt the lunacies christians are taught.
If most christians were actually forced to think about their beliefs I believe that christianity would die out even faster. Seriously:
You believe that an omnipotent/omniscient/eternal being caused himself to be born in human form so that he could have a bad afternoon being a scapegoat in order to appease himself for violations of rules he made, by creatures he made; which violations he knew were going to be committed by the creatures he made before he made them in the manner he created them. Oh yeah lets not forget the best part:
for violations of the rules created, by the same creator, which he knows before he spawns them that they are going to violate, these mortal creatures can earn; in a finite (average around 70 years now, less back then) life on this planet – wait for it—ETERNAL TORMENT.
I renounce any system or being who thinks that eternal torment for finite actions is reasonable. I denounce christianity and the god of the bible as abhorrently evil for the concept and alleged fact of Hell. This is where many christians claim to get their morals… no wonder America is so disfunctional.
As for you denier
You are right, there is absolutely no evidence for evolution, if you ignore the evidence from geology, anthropology, genetics, paleontology, zoology, botany, micro-biology, ecology, and every other field of natural science.
There is no belief in Darwinian Evolution, there is knowledge. Creationist beliefs are not supported by ANY evidence and are contradicted both by scientific evidence and by other creation myths.
The Theory of Evolution is confirmed by every fossil find and every DNA strand decoded. The Theory of Evolution (as it is accepted today) has been substantiated by EVERY related scientific discovery for the last 150 years. Darwin’s original theory was amazingly accurate, but not perfect. The current Theory is not perfect, but has been supported by countless evidences and is the expression of our best understanding of biological science.
Evolution is real, it is fact, it is a Theory (capital T) like Gravity and the Germ Theory of Disease. It happened. We are an ape like creature which ecolved from other ape-like creatures. We share a common ancestor with other great apes and the lemurs. Back far enough we share a common ancestor with cats, squirrels and bears too.
Try this on for size.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-creationist
I doubt that any of the die hard Creo-tards here will read it but hopefully the rest of you who do not really understand evolution will read it.
Not everbody who professes to be a Christian is a Christian. It is a personal, profound relationship with Jesus Christ, made possible through the work of the Holy Spirit with life-changing results.
Does a true Christian continue to sin? Absolutely! Does a true Christian know they have forgiveness through Jesus Christ? Absolutely!
Jesus never forced Himself on anybody because man was given free will to choose.
It is not the job of a Christian to “save” anybody; that can only come from God and the power of the Holy Spirit. It is, however, the responsibility of a true Christian to live their lives showing what God has done for them.
Warlock, I know a lot of people like you who have been turned off by the actions of so-called Christians. The closer and deeper my relationship with God is, the more I see the damage nonbelievers and un-Christian people do.
Jesus spoke more about hell than anything in His work on this earth. Eternity is a choice one makes…either life eternal or separation from God eternal, but in either case, a person will make their choice.
I encourage you to first ask for God’s help..He will do so. Ask Him for faith and discernment and wisdom…He will do so.
Evidence of a true Christian is their life and behavior. You cannot have it both ways…that is to claim to be a Christian yet live your life according to your terms, wants and desires.
This is called death to self…this is what regeneration is all about. This is what a new heart is all about….a heart for Christ Jesus.
Warlock, and anyone else here who’s using terms like Creo-tards: All of you are very effective at getting your points across without the name calling. Why bother? It just gives someone else more reason to dismiss your arguments.
/nods
Sorry Dan.
From reading your comments FJC it is plain to see that you pick and chose the parts of the christian god idea that are convenient to you at the time. Your god idea bows to the law of the land when it is convenient to you. Yet you want everyone else to bow to the word of your god idea. You state that vengeance is reserved exclusively for your god idea, while you claim knowledge of those in your hell idea, as if you were judge and jury. Your god idea is sick.
You will be a far better person, both morally and ethically when you gain your freedom from jesus christ. You will feel better about yourself and will know how obviously delusional or deranged are those that believe in the christian god idea.
Oh! But there is no problem with someone sentencing another to burn for an eternity? Surely, calling someone a Creo-tard is far less offensive. Your name calling point is valid but, just because the christians have been handing out their offensive statements for far longer it shouldn’t make them more acceptable.
“The demons know who Jesus Christ is and shudder at what awaits them in the end.
So, if satan and his demons know who God is and who Jesus is then why do you deny Him”
Lists of things that don’t actually exist for $500, Alex.
Fijc
Ahhh, the no-true-scotsman fallacy. Poorly played.
Your claim that it is the the choice of the individual does not alleviate the fact that the concept of hell is horrid. That any system with such a possible outcome is evil. That the imbalance between the possible horrors committed in a finite life and the torment endured in an INFINITE punishment is so unreasonable that it should be abhorent to even the religious adherents in your cult who undoubtedly think they are going to get the reward.
Even you and yours should be railing against this system of punishment as wrong.
I can not ask for help from your god, first I do not believe in him and second, even if he revealed himself to me and proved himself to be true and real I would reject any reward he offered me based upon the evil and vileness of his system.
By the way – I notice you fail yet again to provide me a single scrap of evidence for your beliefs. You just preach and smugly shake your head at the poor unbeliever but offer nothing for proof. Your conceit has to border on the sin of pride. Your offensive, smug belief that YOU and your cult have the right answer and all those other ‘christians’ (thousands of denominations and billions of individuals) are misguided/wrong/just not true christians is truly revolting.
To the contrary, notagod…I am free through Jesus Christ, not the opposite. I am not a better person by any acts that I do, in fact, the life I have prior to accepting Jesus Christ as my PERSONAL Lord and Savior is quite sickening. I think about all the things I did and it literally makes me sobbingly heartsick. I have laid my life before Him that can cleanse and renew…that and only that has changed my life.
I really feel so sorry for you and others that so desperately hate Jesus Christ…that only comes from satan because satan hates God and anybody who follows Christ.
You are certainly free to believe as you wish because God gave you that option.
Hey folks,
We now have a separate thread, “Jesus: Socialist or Capitalist? Put your thoughts here.” Plus a few other questions for you. To get there, please click on my ugly mug at the top of this page and scroll down — it’s just below the propane ripoff post.
I’ll be interested in the debate that develops there.
Belief in Jesus Christ as who He says He is requires faith. Faith comes from God through the teachings of His Holy Word.
“You are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.”
FiJC
FFS, Neither I nor any atheist I know hates your jebus. A possibly historical possibly mythical person is not worth such a strong emotion. Hating Jebus would be as irrational and silly as claiming to have a personal relationship with him.
I dislike the bible and think Jesus could have done so much more if his story was not mostly myth made up by a misogtynistic, bigoted power hungry pharisee who never even met him (unless you count that damascus lie).
I reject as irrational and unfounded your statement that my ability to chose my actions is a gift from your god. Provide evidence for this claim that a being with no freewill could give it to me.
Just because you need an unblinking security camera in the sky and the threat of insane punishment for limited crime to keep you from being scum does not mean we all do. I live a wholesome, honest and proper life of moderation, moral by the standards of everyone who knows me (except possibly a couple of god-botherers who have a problem with my divorce and re-marraige). I do this knowing/caring that my actions affect those around me and with the thought to prevent all the harm and encourage all the rational thought I can.
Just because you are inherently evil and need to be frightened out of your tendencies does not mean I need your bronze age mythology.
Faith – belief without evidence. Gonna pass on that.
FJC,
You are shackled to a fantasy and a horrid fantasy it is.
You may have changed something but, your comments are quite sickening.
You are the one who is introducing hatred. I don’t hate jesus christ, the christian jesus christ doesn’t exist. There is no satan, there is no god either.
Sorry for the quoting problem in my last comment.
Charles Darwin was God.
Check out the beard similarities. Unmistakable.
Coincidence? I think not.
Warlock and Notagod….your enmity (hatred)toward God is obvious. Like I said before, you either accept it by faith or you don’t. Jesus didn’t make anybody trust in Him…neither am I, nor any other Christian I know would force anybody to believe as we do.
You have made yourselves very clear in what you believe and what you reject. The truth is the truth.
God’s word states that His wrath will be wrought against those who deny him.
Jesus paid our sin-debt in full when He went to the cross, so His followers would not have to. So the truth is you will pay that debt by your own choice.
So, let’s all go out and party like hell Monday through Saturday, then confess our sins and repent on Sunday and swear we won’t do it again. Then, as we let our human failings come back, we can just repent again. Nice system, since that seems to be how it works. If that’s not how it goes, please, explain it to me. Becuase if all that matters is that we just accept Jesus before we become worm food, then that explains the rash of prison conversions before they get the needle shoved in their arm or the switch thrown on Ol’ Sparky.
FiJC
Again preaching and no evidence. Outrageous claims without a whit of base.
I have no enmity to your god, I do not believe in him. I believe the analogy was already made – do you have enmity towards Thor or Odin or Zeus or Ra? No, you exclude them from your thoughts because you do not believe in them and no one is forcing him upon you. Imagine if you had some crazy in your face all the time touting their belief in Odin and Valhalla, after about 15 years of asking for evidence and being told the same old tired baseless bull—- would your writing sound less than pleasant?
Your god doesn’t state anything. A book does. Anonymous Text as evidence, poor degree of proof. Other than your bible you have no reason to ascribe the feelings, events, acts or statements to your god. Consider who wrote those books, for one you do not really know, secondly you never met them and know nothing about them other than what you have been told by them. So the reliability of the source is very dubious.
There is also a required level of proof. These are different for each person and each topic. If I tell you there was a shooting in the Kansas City Metro area last night, you would probably believe me with little or no worry. You might ask for a detail or two, but the level of proof would be minimal. If I told you 200 people were shot in Kansas City last night, the level of proof you required would be much greater. If I told you that one person shot 200 people, again the level of proof would be that much higher. and on and on until I tell you that the entire population of the greater Kansas City Metro area was killed by a spoon wielding 12 year old boy who had been carrying a purple goat in his other hand the whole time. At this point, the level of proof is astronomically high. Almost nothing could make you believe that because it is extremely ludicrous.
So, what level of proof would be required to prove to you that the son of god was born as a human and from a human woman in December over 2000 years ago. That he and his devoted followers wandered the middle east before he was brutally murdered. That during his life he perfomred miracles like turning water to wine. That after his death he descended into hell and three days later arose on earth before ascending to heaven. All these things are attributed to Osiris. An Egyptian god who predated Jesus by centuries.
I deny a debt. I deny any system who lades guilt upon me for the actions of an alleged predecessor thousands ago. What goodness a deity who says I am inherently evil because he created me that way.
The horror and evil of christianity knows no bounds.
That’s not how it works, Other John…salvation comes by faith in Jesus Christ with repentence (turning away from a sinful life) with a remorseful, sincere heart.
God says with a repentent heart you are a new creature, you therefore have no desire to live like you did before. Does that also mean you are perfect and do not sin…no indeed.
God says that our righteousness is like filthy rags in His eyes. We STRIVE to not live a sinful life.
Nobody knows the heart but God. It is not God’s desire that anyone perish, but that all should come to repentence and salvation. A deathbed confession of remorse and acceptance of Jesus Christ is not cast away.
Since none of us are guaranteed one second of life ahead of us, it stands to reason that one would want to accept Jesus Christ before we die; otherwise it is too late.
With the death of a follower of Christ, the soul leaves the body and enters into heaven in the presence of God.
i am saddened by the miss conceptions out there of what it means to be a christian. alot of blame has to be shouldered by imperfect people trying to be perfect. God is love and His church should reflect that love. however, the propaganda machine of this world is very much at work providing excuses and reasons to dismiss the tug of God on the human heart. it all comes down to what, or more appropriatly who, you choose to believe.
as jimmy buffet says guys “only time will tell”. i just hope at some point in your lives you honestly without pretense seek the God you so easily dismiss. Seek and you will find. enough preaching, as i said “only time will tell”
FJC, no one hates your god idea, people just find it useless and impotent, on the positive side. While your god idea is dangerous and disgusting when considering its more common attributes.
The only slightly interesting part is, why would you want your fantasy to be true. Your god idea is like wanting to be pissed on by an ant for eternity, how can that be satisfying? Although, I still don’t understand why you want to be pissed on, your need to be pissed on by an ant (your god idea) is just creepy.
Well enjoy your, erm, life. I think some people might like you if you could just drop the endless fantasizing.
Warlock: Through one man came sin and evil and a fallen world, and that man is Adam.
Through one man came redemption and salvation and forgiveness of sin, and that man is Jesus Christ.
We are conceived in sin, born in sin and until we acknowledge this and confess our helplessness to God, and our need for His help, there is no salvation.
BTW Warlock…nobody can make you feel guilty..guilt comes from our own self. Sounds to me like you are feeling a little convicted…
Warlock, if you check out this book ” Halley’s Bible Study Guide…you will find all kinds of proof of God’s work and Jesus existance and all the stories from the Bible.
Also, you might want to read C.S. Lewis…he went through a very profound time in his life where he totally denied God and Jesus salvation, until he needed HIm.
FFIC,
Warlock didn’t say he felt guilty. You are projecting.
FJC sez: “I have been where a lot of folks are now.”
So… you were once a rational human being who had a solid grasp of reality, including evolution, the scientific method, and the principles of logic? If not, you’ve never been where I am. And, religion aside, you’re a raving loon, now. If that makes you happier, congratulations; but don’t assume that because you were miserable before you became a Frothing Fundie for Jesus that we skeptics must also be miserable.
A. Noyd and others, I would point out once again that calling people names such as “raving loon” and “Frothing Fundie” diminishes the power of the name-caller’s argument. It is schoolyard behavior that makes you look immature and silly.
Will,
Mythical creatures can’t actually tug your heart, however, you may have heart disease. I urge you to get a complete physical from a licensed (non-mythical) doctor immediately.
FiJC
Fallacy and mythology. Completely unsubstantiated claims without evidence. Your only ‘evidence’ is to reference me to an apologetics book.
I do not feel guilt, your system lades guilt upon people by saying the crap you just said. I deny any responsibility for the actions of anyone dead before I was born. I repudiate any system which claims I am flawed or evil because of someone else.
I own at least 12 books by Lewis and have read and debunked his religious treatises. Mere Christianity was an interesting apologetic, but in the end it was as lacking as I have found all others to date.
As for Halley; isn’t that the book used by Barton in his now debunked book on the founding fathers? I do not own that one, but I believe it is the source Barton used for the lies about Washington and Madison concerning the separation of church and state.
If I can find it at the Thrift store I will pick it up. Buying religious books at teh thrift store serves a double purpose, you get a book without a cent going to an apologist and you keep it out of the hands of someone who might fall for it.
If we are recommending books to each other there are several I should suggest for you.
I recommend any biology/ecology text written for a real college.
I also recommend Prometheus Press’s Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism. The works of Bradlaugh, Huxley, Paine and Voltaire in a short essay format easy to digest, is a great way for you to get a little extra-biblical information.
Of course I recommend the “New Atheists” but you will find their directness unpleasant (Dawkins once joked that there were 2 versions of his book, one reasonable and rational and sold only to atheists and agnostics and one other vitriolic and hateful purchased only by religionists and apologists). American Christians are so used to being the majority that rational criticism seems to them like they are being picked on.
For that matter any book other than the bible or actually reading the bible with the same critical reasonable mind a normal person would put to any other subject matter.
You know it’s amazing how many people address their comments to WILL,
It looks like you’ve got a ally, Freedom in Jesus Christ. To be honest i’m sick of both your self righteous pity and prayer for those in this discussion who clearly disagree with you. Unless one of you puts forth a cogent, verifiable argument for the existence of god and his grand creation you’ve already lost this debate. And I think you both know that. Which is why you resort to the “God did it” argument and display your deep and sorrowful pity for all those who haven’t found christ in their heart and accepted the Evangelical interpretation of arguably the worst Straw Man argument ever put forth by man. You have no evidence. NO proof. You have faith and it helps you sleep at night, but the people you are arguing against have their own ideas on the nature of the universe, reciting passages from the Bible will not change their minds. ACTUAL PROOF WILL. And even if you could present it to us, a god that allows children to develop bone cancer and entire races of people to become victims of genocide, a god that sits idley by when there is so much suffering in this world is not a god I would ever accept in my heart nor put any faith in.
For what it is worth to you all, I have found a deep satisfying peace that is truly indescribable. Through all things, sad, sorrowful, good, happy, this peace I know can only come from God.
I am thankful to Him for His great love for me and His providential blessing and gift of salvation.
It may mean nothing to you, but to a poor lost struggling soul like me, I have found true and deeply profound peace and love.
To this I give Him thanks.
WARLOCK has said everything that I could possibly say in this discussion. To be honest WILL and FJC you are harmless, you have your beliefs and so do the people who disagree with you. It’s the people like Falwell and Ted Haggard and John Hagee and the hierarchy of the Catholic church who are dangerous. People who profit off of preaching the bible to the masses through television. People who influence politics with their zealous religious rhetoric in a country with defined separation of church and state. Who use wedge issues like marriage and gay marriage to divide this nation in two. The kind of people who helped elect Bush the 2nd. The kind of people who wield far to much power and whose egos are larger than that of their entire congregations which number in the tens of thousands. Any man who has a weekly television program with audiences in tens of thousands and believes the world will end within the next 10 years, that the Rapture is upon us and that unless you believe his version of the creation and end of the world you will burn for eternity needs to be stopped. And there are many men like this. Far too many. Just leave us alone and stop influencing politics.
A good man once said “don’t criticize what you can’t understand.”
as i said only time will tell. God loves you. peace
P.S. and i am trying real hard
YOU ARE RELENTLESS. GOD DOES NOT LOVE ME. HE NEVER DID. HE NEVER WILL. I HAVE NO FAITH IS THIS GOD OF YOURS. STOP PREACHING AND GIVE US PROOF. “God loves you. Peace” there you go again Will, telling me and everyone else who hasn’t found your savior that he “loves” us. I assume your little “time will tell” BS refers to the impending armageddon. Are you a preacher WILL? You seem suited for the profession.
Why would a loving, omnipotent, omniscient god allow a 4 year old girl to suffer from debilhitating bone marrow cancer? And why do you place any faith in this god?
jeff chill out man. you are entitled to your opinion.A good man once said “don’t criticize what you can’t understand.” right back at you dude. i suppose you would rather listen to a dude named warlock. is that what you truly beleive? i never want to harm anyone so i take you calling me harmless as a compliment. i am not in a contest with you guys. as i said, only time will tell and i’m willing to take my chances.
buy the way warlock or whatever your name is . just what sort of a reward do you thimk your god is going to give you. a cave with AC (o get over it just kidding) but if you truly are a warlock, where do you get your knowledge of your lord satan. or do you not believe in satan, in that case your handle is stupid
Charles Darwin was a fictional comic book character first published in Atlas Comics (now Marvel Comics) “Amazing Tales” #6 in 1954, which featured the one and only appearance of Darwin’s arch nemesis, Doctor Nefarto.
Satan “Bilbo” O’Toole was a professional Little League commentator from 1961-1967, when he died from a paracetamol overdose, which he mistook for Mentos.
The basis of the “creationists” philosophy seems to be…”Science is hard. We don’t know all the answers yet. Figuring it all out is too time consuming so we’re just going to credit the universe to our pet mythological figure and be done with it”.
Problem is…one day, the holes will be filled. Science will progress to the point where questions currently open will be answered. So what happens to God then? When there are no more scientific mysteries…whither God?
I heard an NPR discussion once that referred to the fragility of the “God of the Gaps” ideology. Once those gaps are filled….what’s left for God?
Will
In a discussion about one of these subjects where
1) it has been made apparent to you that your opponent does not believe in your god
2) has asked for information or evidence for same god
In this situation your repeated unsupported assertion that “god loves you” is offensive and condescending. It is a claim of special knowledge which is unavailable (by your own statements) to your opponent. Every bit of knowledge I have is available to you, but you claim an experience which is not available to us (not that we want it, or do not want it or did not think we had it while we were believers).
If your god were an actual being with the 5 omni’s attributed to him by most christians he should chose to reveal himself to me in such a way that would allow me to believe (the same way he has allegedly done for you). But, as I have stated earlier, this would do nothing for me to mitigate the vileness of christians, their religion and its tenets; but I would believe in him.
VVarlock is a nickname. I am not and do not claim to have magical powers or special knowledge not available to anyone willing to read a book. Actually I got it playing video games and it has been one of my online nicks ever since. I am aware of the irony of using the name, but I prefer the Norse origin of the word. Varth-Lokkr (which is why I spell it with the double v). In the Norse it is a term of honor which was often used to describe an exorcist. What I attempt to exorcise is ignorance.
My other nick is ‘therev’ as in “the rev” for my manner of speaking which resembles that of a pastor when I get on a roll. Also given to me by someone else (in this case a christian co-worker well aware of my lack of belief). It was also intended both in the giving and in the using as tongue-in-cheek.
No one should listen to me, or take my words on face value. I beg of anyone, look it up. There are hundreds of books, scientific papers and journals and websites which would further all of our knowledge in this matter.
If you go to AnswersinGenesis, then also go to TalkOrigins or Panda’s Thumb. There is no controversy, just a manufactuversy created out of whole cloth by the religious and extravagandized in films like Expelled. (see this link for a thorough debunking of that steaming pile of lies -http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Expelled:Leader’s_Guide )
If you actually want to know what atheism is about try the Atheist Community of Austin’s page, they are a great reference, well done and I generally agree with most of what they have put up there. They also have a tv show which you can check out about 400 90 minute episodes where everything you could possible want to ask has probably been asked and answered by someone who has thought out the answer.
I really doubt that Jeff just listens to me, more likely he has done his own research and come to his own conclusion and the things I said resonate with him on some level. Only a religion or a dictator want people to take their claims as law and discourage you to challenge them. Usually fear of loss of personal power and the paucity of their claims forces them to say things like it is sacrilege to translate our sacred screed into a modern understandable language (islam-guilty christianity-guilty). Once you really read the bible with a skeptical eye toward its veracity you will see how ridiculous it really is.
To answer the question of why there is suffering and violence and heartache and trials in this world –
First of all, we live in a fallen world. This world that we see and feel and can verify with our own eyes is full of evil and suffering and wickedness – because sin and suffering entered the world through Adam and Eve by the wiles and deception of satan.
God’s plan of redemption and savlation was immediate right after that and the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the coming Savior, Jesus Christ.
You doubt the authenticity of the Holy Bible – let me tell you that satan knows more about the Bible than most people do, but he does not have the Holy Spirit to help him…for satan is condemned already and he knows that. That is why the demons of satan cry out for mercy when Jesus cast them out of people.
You want proof that God exists – this proof is everywhere, in all of nature. The Sadduccees and Pharisees wanted proof as well, but Jesus told them that they had no faith.
Read the book of Hebrews if you want further explanation on faith, but specifically Chapter 11.
Hebrews 1:1 states this, “In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by His Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, AND THROUGH WHOM HE MADE THE UNIVERSE. (capitalization by me).
Back to suffering and hardship – the horror of little children suffering and dying; the horrors of all other heartache is not because God is punishing anybody. We live in a fallen world full of evil, suffering and violence and wickedness – this is because this world belongs to satan.
You ask, but why does God allow it to happen? Why did He not rid us of satan from the beginning? Well, to answer those questions, Jesus said that He would not return until all of his enemies were put under His feet, and until through the generations, his PREDESTINED were called unto salvation.
As a testimony to you, in 1977 my 20-year-old sister was murdered, brutally and we did not find her for over a month. I literally thought my heart would burst from heartache and pain from this.
I did not even understand this, but I remember searching for some place and somebody for comfort but to no avail. Only through God’s mighty mercy did I find peace and comfort through this. I asked His help to deal with it and found that indescribable peace.
A human being is not capable of providing what God can provide.
God does not tell us everything; He reveals to us what He wants us to know when He wants us to know it. God is not a magician that WE can manipulate to give us what our sinful nature wants.
Also in Hebrews, God speaks about the warning of unbelief and this verse says this: Hebrews 3:7 – So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion during the time of testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried Me and for forty years saw what I did.
That is why I was angy with that generation, and I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways’ So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘they shall not enter my rest.’”
Suffering and trials fall on everybody on this earth, yes even Christians, but the difference is for a Chrstian, there is hope, there is sustaining peace and comfort, there is the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Do you people not understand that when Jesus Christ was put on that cross and crucified, God actually turned His face away from Him? This is because God hates sin so much that He could not look upon it.
Jesus Christ took those sins upon His body so YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO. He paid that debt, he did what no human being could do – not buddha, not gandhi, not mohammed, not any other self-proclaimed “prophet.”
Testing of faith through trials of many kinds develops perseverence.
FJC/WILL,
A book written and revised over many centuries by untold numbers of MEN with unknown motives and beliefs that influenced its writing is not something that can be interpreted as literal truth. NO amount of preaching and reciting its verses will change that fact. We live in a fallen world? It doesn’t take the Bible for a reasonable person to realize that the world is crazy and horrible place. What the reasonable person does is to try to understand why the world is so terrible and try to make positive changes in their own life and do things that can make this world liveable for future generations. Hiding behind the Bible and accepting that
the world is coming to an end simply means you are weak. Unwilling to accept the basic historical facts that the monotheistic faiths are primarily responsible for so much of the suffering that humans have endured over the last millenia and responsible for so many of the problems we as a species face today. If I were to list all of the historical instances in which one human being justified the killing of another in the name of their chosen god I would never stop listing. Here are some broad examples of human suffering inflicted by Christianity or Islam. The inquisition, the crusades, the battles over Jerusalem, the religious wars that have ravaged Uganda, Sudan, Liberia, DR of Congo, etc…, the genocide of North and South American native peoples by Christian conquerers, Islamic extremism, Christian extremism (gay bashing, killing abortion clinic Doctors, banning knowledge in the form of books and films), the KKK, the Salem witch burnings, the ethnic cleansings in the Balkans are just a few instances. I could go on but I think I’ve proved my point that bronze aged religious dogma is the greatest threat to the survival of mankind. I know you and too many others think the world is coming to an end in our lifetimes, but I refuse to concede and hide behind books and verses of antiquated religions that are responsible for so much of the suffering in this world, yet these religions place the blame on MAN. Your are right man is fallen, men like you who apologize for these historical atrocities and prop up your ancient and evil beliefs. I choose reason and logic, I choose living my life now while i’m alive, not waiting for a heavenly after life. I choose trying to make the world a better place rather than allow it to destroy itself because of people who allow their millenia old religious ideologies to justify so many terrible things because they believe the world is coming to an end. Having faith in god does not make you any better a person, it does not grant you knowledge unknown to others, it simply means you cannot cope with this life and the thought of death, simply it makes you weak.
FiJC
Your claim of a fallen world is bogus. The world appears exactly as it would appear if it was formed by entirely natural processes; or if a miraculous eternal being suddenly created it, 6000 years ago (about 10,000 years after the domestication of the dog), from void, into an idyllic garden with no rain which was subsequently ruined by the actions of a magical talking snake urging the first woman into eating a special magical fruit. Lets consider this idiocy.
First a liberal application of Occam’s Razor shows a simple conclusion that we should ALL be able to reach. Secondly, the tree Eve was urged to eat from was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, before eating this fruit, both she and Adam were without the knowledge of good and evil. So, while they disobeyed an instruction that at least Adam knew about… they really didn’t know what they were doing because they lacked the knowledge of good and evil.
Also the simple act of disobedience was not how evil got into the world because the snake was already here, by the admissions within the story. And your god allowed evil into the world allegedly because of this one act of disobedience, he did not have to do this, he chose to do this, thus proving that he is not omni-benevolent. And that your god is evil enough to punish people 600+ generations later for one small act of disobedience by an admittedly ignorant clay man with no life experience who completely lacked an understanding of the nature of good and evil. Obviously the actions of a ‘good god’.
As for the “Plan” your god came up with. I believe I have already covered that. It seems pretty convoluted and ridiculous. Self bloodily sacrifices Self to Self for Self’s grievances against the beings in which form Self animated as which beings were created by Self in full advance knowledge that said beings would commit said grievances. That about sum it up? Sounds perfectly reasonable, just what I would expect of an omnipotent omniscient creator… really.
I doubt the authenticity of the bible. If the more powerful eternal 5-omnibeing were the evil one what would he tell you? That he was the good one. And that is was man’s fault that evil got into the world. Add to this that the bible contains no originals, that the earliest OT documents were written after centuries of oral tradition and the earliest NT documents were written decades after the events.
Again I say that the world looks exactly as it would if it had been created by entirely natural processes. As opposed to what I would expect of a 5-omni creator god.
I have read Hebrews, was not impressed. You do not answer why god would allow evil. You just claim that some of us were created destined to be called into salvation. Well that must assume that if some were predestined to salvation, some were not. So, your god went ahead and created them knowing he would send them to hell. Doesn’t sound very loving, as a matter of fact it sounds downright evil to me.
Oh I understand the claims of the bible. JC took what he declared to be sins upon himself. Well I say if he and his other aspect want to call something a sin when it is crap (like having other gods before himself) then he can have them. The cruci-fiction is not a wonderful story. It is a horrid nightmare of thousands of years of bloody animal sacrifice (which was pleasing to your god) culminating in a self sacrifice which I repudiate as ridiculous and unnecessary for all the reasons I have stated and another page when I put them all together.
Your god is evil. Your tale of Human Sacrifice is evil. Your book of morals is evil. Your religion is evil. If you really feel that the bible is inerrantly inspired by a omnibenevolent being then you are evil.
Jeff: The Holy Bible, which is God’s inspired, inerrant, infallible word, tell us this: “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it brings destruction.”
The Holy Bible was created by God, spoken to selected men by the Holy Spirit and documented. To those who are perishing, God’s word is foolishness. This is what God says, not me.
God also said not to put your trust in man.
All through history as we know it, with the help of satan, men have strived to destroy God and all God created, to speak lies and untruths that are deigned to destroy and deceive.
Man’s spirit is eternal – the spirit will either live in heaven for eternity or in hell for eternity — this is your choice.
Jesus also told His deciples that if they were not welcome in a town or household to leave and shake the dust off their feet. This applies to today as well.
There is nothing I nor any other Christian can do to encourage you to believe in Jesus Christ as the only divine redeemer. This can only come by the power of the Holy Spirit, which is why we are encouraged to pray for the lost.
God also said to seek Him while He can still be found; this means that at some point, He turns His face away from the self-defiant to leave them to their own chosen fate.
God’s word is not to be argued, so I will continue to pray for you and others who choose not to believe my Savior, my Holy God and my refuge through this life.
Blessings to you.
Ok, let me ask this, because I think the door got opened on this. God sent His word down to the people who were to document His word, but it was not written down until a few generations later (some 100 years or more, according to what I’ve read and heard from different people). So, up until the time it was written, it was passed down from person to person until that time. You also posit that God said not to trust in man. So, if that is indeed correct (which it has to be since that is what God said and what happened), why is so much faith and trust put into the Bible, as written, for being the infallable word of God, when it was man who wrote it down, and man is subject to error due to any number of factors…not to mention the time delay issues which invite all manner of possibility of errors being introduced to the original spoken word? I have asked these questions repeatedly of various Christians I’ve known, and none have adequately answered them in a way that made sense. If you can, please do so because I’ve been trying to get an answer to this for the past 2 decades. Please, enlighten me.
In short, I have no evidence for what I believe other than a sandy old tome written by savages who thought it was the height of morality to protect your guests by offering your daughter’s virginity to a rapacious crowd.
You claim special knowledge which is not available to us unless we are willing to sacrifice reason and knowledge in favor of an evil and unverifiable mythology. You have nothing to support your claim other than sweepingly dictatorial pronouncements like “god’s word is not to be argued”.
Defeat. admit it.
If your blessings come from your god, keep them. They are ashes. If your prayers are to your god, keep them; I would rather have you thinking and reading other books.
The reason it seems harsh when you are confronted by someone with different beliefs is that you and your religion have been unnecessarily (and without due cause) treated with kid gloves. Well, respect has to be earned and nothing original to your dogma is worthy of respect.
Dan Casey sez: “A. Noyd and others, I would point out once again that calling people names such as “raving loon” and “Frothing Fundie” diminishes the power of the name-caller’s argument.”
Given that FJC clearly finds his delusions 1000x more compelling than any rational argument, I don’t see how calling him an idiot could possibly harm my cause. Besides, he does froth. Not because he’s passionate, but because his passion blinds him to what the rest of us are actually saying (such as “quoting the Bible does nothing for us”). Furthermore, if someone cannot distinguish between my attitude and the truth of my words, then they aren’t listening to me for the right reasons anyways.
VVarlock sez: “American Christians are so used to being the majority that rational criticism seems to them like they are being picked on.”
It’s sooooo true.
“In a discussion about one of these subjects where… [whole post]”
/applause
Other John: God did not send down His word to men…God spoke His word through the Holy Spirit to those whom He chose to write it. I posted the name of a book that is amazing in conveying the history of the Bible and actual proof of events that happened. It is called Halley’s Bible Handbook.
The Bible was written over a 1500 year period of time and God did this for a reason…because there are no inaccuracies or inconsistencies in it, the prophets documented events as it was given to them by the Holy Spirit.
I’m sure several of you will find this outrageous because you do not understand it.
Warlock; you owe me nothing. I have great resprect for you. I do not have anger toward you because you believe differently than I do. I have been respectful of your opinions and statements.
Belief in God comes from faith.
FJC,
You take pity on Warlock, do not confuse that with respect. It is evident by your comments. “Which is why we are encouraged to pray for the lost”. You believe we are all lost. You are lost. You can’t see outside of your small Christian world. You act as though none of the people posting on this blog have never read the Bible or been inside of a Church. Most if not all of us have. There was a reason we all left Church and never looked back. The hypocrisy of Christianity is so thick one could choke on it. Respect. Haha you must be joking.
FiJC
If you call being respectful, ignoring the posts and failing to provide the evidence requested by the poster then yes, you have been respectful to/of me. I would not call that respectful.
Yes, you posted Dr. Halley’s screed, but I pointed out that at least part of his text is innaccurate. No response from you as to the outright falsehoods that Barton got from Halley and used in his ludicrous revisionist libelous book about the American Forefathers.
There are no innaccuracies in the bible? WHAT? Apologetics aside, the NT contains 3-4 differing version of who went to the tomb easter morning and what happened once they got there.
Not to mention the hundreds of other contradictions, lies and inanities. But that doesn’t matter because, for all the reasons I have mentioned numerous times; the bible, its god, christianity and its doctrines are all EVIL. Plain and simple, when judged by a modern moral man, the things in the bible are EVIL. You can try to claim that this bit is allegory, or not exactly what was meant, or that I am not reading it full of the holy spirit, but any reasonable person who actually takes a look at your apologetics should be non-plussed.
God did not write the bible, if he had then it would not have changed since he is unchanging, but there is a huge flip-flop from the OT to the NT. On many issues. The bible was written by men to serve their own needs. If you look at it without the blinders that it ‘must be perfect or my mamma was a fool’ you too can see it for the misogynistic, bigoted, book of hate, inequality and evil that it is.
FiJC
If belief in god comes through faith and faith means believing despite ample contradictatory evidence (as it must in the case of Christianity, Judaism and Islam), then Faith is a bad thing.
Taking something on faith should be a crime in this modern age where information is so readily available. Modern Americans placing undue value on faith is scary. No wonder so many bought the weapons of mass destruction crap from Bush43. If you are willing to believe the words of one ignorant semi-literate moron from the desert why not 2 or 10 (I know not all of TX is a desert).
Hey folks,
At least every week or so, someone accuses me of censoring their posts, or they email me and ask me if I’m censoring their posts. I’d like to say a few things about that.
1. This is a moderated board. That means I “approve” everything before it goes up. Except: if you’re posting, it appears on your screen as if it’s gone up immediately (this is the way the system works). But actually, it hasn’t. If you refresh, it will look like your post has disappeared. I know — that’s dumb. But that’s the way WordPress is, I guess. I’m not a techie. It DOES NOT mean I deleted it; rather it means I have not approved it — yet.
2. All of the comments go into a queue for my approval. They don’t go up on the board for others to see until I approve them. Unfortunately, I am not always able to monitor posts you submit on a minute-to-minute basis. Sometimes I do it hour to hour. Sometimes 4 hours go by. Sometimes I go to bed, or go for a bike ride, or I’m doing other work. Or I’m eating dinner with my family. Or whatever. The possibilities are endless. The point is, there may be long gaps between the time you submit a comment and when I approve it. That does not mean I have censored you. So please don’t construe it that way. I like the debate. This is the blog where “your rants and raves are welcome!” But I just cannot, manage it 100 percent adroitly. Sometime there will be gaps.
3. I won’t permit George Carlin’s “The Seven Words You Can’t Say on TV” in posts, though I am fallible and sometimes one or two might slip thru. The same goes for race- or ethnic-baiting. There are plenty of other blogs that allow that stuff; if you want to post stuff like that I suggest you find them.
4. I don’t want to see other people’s reputations called into question without evidence. If you write that Mr. A (a public or a private figure) is a child molester or a crook or an adulterer, you better be prepared to back that up with facts (not opinions) before I approve your post.
5. If I have deleted a post because of the reasons cited in #4 or #5, I will send you an email suggesting you remove the offensive material and resubmit the post. Don’t depend on me to edit it for you.
6. Name calling: I do not like it. There is one big reason why. I value this blog and these boards, and if it devolved into a dumb shoutfest where people are merely calling each other’s blog “handle” nasty names, that is incredibly pointless and everybody is going to stop looking at this site. That “entertainment wears thin fast. However much I don’t like it, I am loath to delete those posts, because this is the “rants and raves are welcome board.” So I permit a certain amount of back and forth that way — but you really need to know that name-calling, if you do it, cheapens your arguments and makes you easier for me and other readers to write off.
Thank you for the time you spend reading and posting to this blog, and for the time you took reading this. Now … back to the debate!
Evolution is not real. The fossil evidence points more to a worldwide flood than to anything else. Don’t be quoting Scintific American. If’s only your version of the Bible. SA is not accurate. No we are not ape-like creatures even though some people look and act like it. We did not evolve We were created. Apes are animals, we are humans created in the image of God. Were apes created in the image of God. NO! We are lower than the angels, but above animals. Our job is overseer of Earth and to have dominion over animals. Red Genesis again. Were apes given an importsnt task besides eating and poopoing? I doub’t it. Evolution is a scam and the more churches can cull it from children’s education, the better off we will be. I’m just glad the AIG creation museum is availbale in the summer to take kids on vacation to.
Apparently, there are some misconceptions about the world that should be addresses.
First of all, we don’t live in a fallen world. The idea of a fallen world stems from mythology and fantasy in a time of ignorance before the nature of natural processes were understood. The time for that kind of ignorance has past now but, there remain some that have been brainwashed with a great fear of letting it go. The brainwashing is usually administered by christians who have received the “blessing” of fear themselves or christians that are motivated by the fertile ground offered by the followers of the jesus myth for the satisfaction of their greed and lust.
The christian mythology includes many rituals and “plans” to keep its followers living in fear of damnation including but not limited to; a mythical hero they call jesus or christ, a ritual where by a “sinner” can be “forgiven” if the “sinner” will describe their “sin” in detail to a lustful minister, and “salvation” from being burned alive forever by a “loving god”.
The christian “plan” was written to the satisfaction of kings and rulers of that time as a way to pacify and control the commoners. Today it is used by christian dominated governments, particularly in the United States for the same purposes.
There is no doubt that the christian fantasy book, Holy Bible, is a work of fiction. However, some events and places used by the various authors of that book are fictionalized depictions of real events and/or places. The mixing of fact with fantasy and lies is in practice a commandment of the christian way.
Some christians believe that they can become infected with a mental disorder they call the holy spirit or ghost, this whole ghost myth is used to heighten the fear induced in the sheeple herded by christian jesus christ masters. Some christians are taught to cry out during ceremonies regarding mythical ghosts and spirits. Some of the stars of the christian fantasy shows include satan (a devil character), that the christian sheeple herders use to instill fear into the minds of sheeple herds.
One thing common to the various christian god ideas is that none of them are able to produce any evidence that supports their claims. In fact they say, any that don’t believe the christian myth, without evidence, are evil and will burn in their hell idea forever. The need for the sheeple to believe everything the herders say without question is a concept the christian herders and sheeple refer to as faith. You can read the christian holy bible ( bibel for short due to its childish content), which contains all manner of conflicting fictionalized stories, including demands that the sheeple believe based on faith and without evidence. The christians are often confused by the sheeple herders use of the term “last days”, apparently they like unnecessarily large numbers as the “last days” are of the order 730,000 (and without end). The christians are so fond of the “last days” term that one of their cults has adopted the name “latter day saints” or mor[m]ons as their main herder was named moroni as evidenced by their moronic priesthood and can be thought of as the a christian moronic cult.
One of the myths of the christian cult is that the character they refer to as jesus (also jebus, due to the christian fondness of traveling in gangs on buses), was once a very large anus as the christian god idea is said to have made the universe through its “son”.
The christians believe that their god idea is all knowing including knowing events that will occur in the future. Part of the plan of their god idea was to have children suffer all manner of pain and disease, in fact all manner of pain and every disease was created by the christian god idea, if christianity were true. The christian god created satan to administer the pain and disease part of its plan (jesus on a stick was also created and planned by the christian god). The christians attribute the concept of suffering to a temper tantrum their god idea experienced regarding a portion of the plan it created. However, the christians like to see suffering as it is evidence that the plan of their god idea is predestined. The christians claim an “indescribable peace” when they understand that all rape, murder, maiming, suffering, and death are part of the plan of their god idea. They even have testimonies to it. They claim that human beings are not capable of providing such destruction, only their god idea can do it.
Christians believe that everything is “revealed” to them by their god idea through suffering and “sin” (they especially like it when non-christians suffer).
Christianity is a dangerous and destructive cult. Christianity really should be limited to participation by adults only. However, the christians aren’t satisfied with limiting their activities and actions to consenting adults, they involve children and even those who state that they don’t want any part of the disgusting christian ways. They talk as, act as, and demand that they be allowed to involve everyone in the disgusting wretched plan of the christian god idea.
God idea bless with disgust the christians ways.
FJC sez: “The Bible was written over a 1500 year period of time and God did this for a reason…because there are no inaccuracies or inconsistencies in it, the prophets documented events as it was given to them by the Holy Spirit. I’m sure several of you will find this outrageous because you do not understand it.”
Or maybe we’ll find it outrageous because it’s complete and utter bunk!
~*~*~*~
Evolution denier sez: “Don’t be quoting Scintific American. If’s only your version of the Bible.”
Hm, in this post you come across as an over-the-top caricature of a fundamentalist. I do believe I’ve fallen for a poe. Wouldn’t be the first time, but I do avoid most of them, so contgrats! You’re very convincing.
What’s a Poe? A darwinist? Explain how every prophecy in the Old Testament (except a few which are for the future) has come true? The fortelling of Jesus and His death on the cross and resurrection came true.
—————
Evolution is a fairy tale for grown ups anyway.
All thius talk of that big pile of monkey bones called Ida has made me ill. Someone finds a pile of bones and all of a sudden when evolved from little monekey with tales and furry bungholes. Hogwash.
That was just another monkey that drwoned during the flood and was fossilized. Nothing more nothing less.
Piltdown man, nebraska man, peppered moths, etc. All fakes. Any more fakes you darwinists want to throw this way?
Darwinism is a dangerous and destructive cult. Darwinism really should be limited to participation by adults only. However, the darwinists aren’t satisfied with limiting their activities and actions to consenting adults, they involve children and even those who state that they don’t want any part of the disgusting darwinist ways. They talk as, act as, and demand that they be allowed to involve everyone in the disgusting wretched plan of the monkey worshipping idea.
That’s OK Evolution denier, evolution is for those who want evidence to justify claims. You wouldn’t be interested.
Evolution Denier…
A Poe… is a reference to Poe’s law.
“Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.[1]”
From rational wiki…
It’s kind of has an analogy of the Colbert report and conservatives who think Colbert is espousing a conservative position when it’s really a parody.
I do not think ED is a Poe.
Look at the direct quoting with a few changes to make his own point. Look at the refusal to look up “Poe” to see what we mean. Look at the inability to spell simple words.
Seems like the real thing to me. I think we are dealing with the real thing, I think it is Former Governor Huckabee talking here.
To Denier
I take nothing on face value. The article from SciAM merely refutes some of the common arguements creationists make. I doubt you actually went there or actually read it.
The Theory of Evolution is proven by evidence. Your global flood is disproven by evidence. The fossils occur in such a manner as to make a global flood event impossible. The evidence from the fossil record shows that while virtually all of the world was underwater, it happened at different times over billions of years. A global flood event 4-6000 years ago is clearly not compatible with any field of science.
No one worships monkeys or SciAM, you are conflating our respect for science with your text worship of the babble.
Tell me Evolution denier, Do you forgo all the other things that brilliant scientists have brought us? Do you ever take any medications, have medical procedures, visit a planetarium, appreciate the Hubble photos, listen to the weather? Or is it only this science you reject? You can deny and decry anything you want, it does not make it wrong.
ED,
Denying reality doesn’t make it go away. The world is old. Life evolved. Denying truth doesn’t get you closer to God – unless he is playing a massive practical joke by saying one thing in a book, and doing something completely different, all the while keeping himself totally undetectable.
To you evolutionists: just where do you think the incredible knowledge and abilities of doctors, scientists and others to provide medical care to sustain life, provide food and other things came from?
No – these abilities and strengths did NOT just happen out of the blue; they came from God.
One thing I’ve never quite understood is the randomness of it all. Ok, let’s accept that God inspires humans to create and develop all manner of life-sustaining medicine, vaccines, and technology. Yet, none or very little of this was present in human history until recent years (like the last 200). For the first many thousands of years that we have artifacts and archaeological evidence of, humans were quite primitive and only managed modest advances in weapon making, building construction, and simple tools. It doesn’t make sense. If God can give us this wisdom, why are we only making these advances so recently (especially in light of the decreased religiosity of people in general)? If God also permits bad events like earthquakes, plagues, droughts, starvation, death, mayhem, and destruction to occur and for millions of people (both believers and non) to perish, then I just fail to see the relevance. If you believe, you get worldly mental comfort in that fact, but you still meet the same worldy end as everyone else. I cannot conclusivly determine what happens afterward, other than that the body becomes worm food. Beyond that, I honestly do not know. I know there are people who have experienced near-death or who have been brought back who tell of all sorts of interesting things. I believe they are recounting what they believe happened, and maybe what they experienced during their short stint in the afterlife is truthful…that can never be factually proven, or perhaps it’s the result of temporary stoppages of blood flow to the brain while the brain is still not technically dead and those experiences are impritned in the person’s memory when they are revived. What I do know factually is that it seems that most people find great comfort in some form of belief, whatever it happens to be, because they can use it to explain that which they either do not know, or do not care to seek answers to. It’s very convenient to simply chalk up something like a good, God-worshipping person dying of cancer to ‘God willed it’ or ‘It was their time to be with God’ than to question why God would allow a devout person to suffer from such a hideous end. Maybe it’s because of my cynical upbringing that I just can’t accept things on faith. Sometimes I wish I could, life would be a lot easier…I wouldn’t seek logical, rational explanations for why things happen. I might actually have more free time then, because I will search for answers when I know of none. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong places, maybe we haven’t discovered the truth yet. All I know is that things to me at this point in my life seem too random, too uncontrolled to feel like there’s anything greater going on. I’ll continue studying and learning about the world’s great religions (admittedly, I’ve not gotten far on this yet), and maybe I’ll find my answers within them or one of them at some point. I’ve experienced some things that I cannot clearly answer for using worldly facts and evidence, yet I have not found answers within organized religion either. I don’t think this makes me a bad person headed for an afterlife of hell as so many people seem to think. Maybe I’m just a lost person seeking the meaning of it all. Maybe we’re all lost. Maybe we’re all found and don’t yet know it. It’s not for me to say, I don’t have all the answers.
FJC sez: “To you evolutionists: just where do you think the incredible knowledge and abilities of doctors, scientists and others to provide medical care to sustain life, provide food and other things came from?”
Well, then god’s a total jerk for keeping all that stuff from us for thousands of years, wouldn’t you say? I mean, what did your poor old great, great grandma do to deserve being born into a festering pit of crippling and deadly diseases that a few centuries later are so unfamiliar that we get people who don’t believe in them anymore?
To the christian that simply sits back and receives the fruit from the labors of others, it is easy for them to not understand the amount of tediously difficult and frustrating work that goes into providing the “incredible knowledge and abilities of doctors, scientists and others to provide medical care to sustain life, provide food and other things” To the christians the knowledge and abilities just poof into their lives just as they believe their god idea poofed from nothing to a fully functional super creature and the only thing in existence.
The collected knowledge provided by scientific inquiry is the result of very difficult work by dedicated people. The knowledge wasn’t served up by some pie in the sky god idea.
The earth is covered with evidence of a global flood. Fossils on top of mountains for instance. Do you suppose those trilobites climbed the Himilayas for sport?
The Grand Canyon is the largest peice of evidence for aglobal flood. PROOF actually. Are you couning Piltdown man and peppered moths in your evidence for evilution?
not a god (thank God) your quote-”The collected knowledge provided by scientific inquiry is the result of very difficult work by dedicated people. The knowledge wasn’t served up by some pie in the sky god idea.”
my question – are you leaving out all the dedicated hard working people in the research, science and medical fields who believe in God and attribute their success to Him? I personally know many doctors who pray at the begining of each day and before each surgery especially to ask God to focus their mind and guide thier hands.
and a-noyd what is your answer to your poor old grandma (who i bet you believed in God). sorry granny you are just a cruel example of bad evolutionary gene pools and you’ve been naturally selected to die and thats it. been good knowing you. there is no afterlife so when you are done suffering too bad. see where this leads. this is the greatest arguement for euthanasia that i have ever heard. o no here i go opening another can of worms.
Except, the dating of the fossils that have been found, plus the type of rock they have been found in, do not support the flood theory too well. What they support is plate tectonics lifting the sedimentary rock out of the waters and raising them up, rushing and morphing them into metamorphic rock, and forming many mountain chains, like the Alps and the Appalachians, for example. Hows this for another thought. If we did in fact have a global flood that managed to raise waters up to well over the existing mountaintops to place those fossils there, then where did that water go? There is not enough water on the planet to do such a thing, and given the earth’s gravitational pull, it is not possible for that much water to simply vanish. One would have to suppose that God sent a huge quantity of water down from the heavens to the earth, then removed them with the same swiftness in order to corroberate such an idea. And then, it still doesn’t explain the dating problem that the fossils have all been dated to many different geologic periods of time. That is something I cannot ignore and just throw my hands up and say ‘God did it.’
Also, for that to happen to get fossils at the top of mountains, a great flood would simply cause organisms to die. Some might float up and be deposited at higher elevations if it happened, but most would settle in the lower valleys or existing water bodies. Any that did get placed on mountains would then erode away since they are exposed, not buried, within the rocks at the mountaintops. You can see this within human time, easily, that the tops of mountains erode with quickness through the processes of wind, water, and ice. The tops of mountains are continuously being worn down and flushed to lower elevations by natural processes. So, for us to believe the flood theory, we would have to completely ignore these scientific and reality facts, and that is something that anyone with any critical thinking ability just cannot do, in my opinion. Facts just don’t support it the story, unless you completely ignore the facts.
Will, Evolution Denier,
Neither of you is listening at all. The bible is not a scientific book, and AIG is not a reasonable source of scientific information.
Get out. Read some real science. Learn something.
Plate tectonics? The continents drifte apart as a result of the flood when the waters from underground seperated the continents. The Bible is more reliable than modern science ever will be.
Your so called rock / dating timetables are wrong becuase carbon dating is inaccurate.
Evolution denier,
Carbon dating? Who uses carbon dating in the context of continental drift? The timescales for continental drift are on the order of hundreds of millions years; carbon dating is used for objects no older than 60,000 years. I’ll second Echidna’s comment. Read some real science.
Since there are archaic laws in the United States that allow that type of behavior Will, all you can do about it is hope that they aren’t as delusional as George Bush, who thinks his god idea told him to invade Iraq. We all know what a disaster that christian god idea STILL is. However, additionally, you should write your governmental representatives and express concern over the out of control christian population and ask that they introduce laws to control the christian cults.
Could you please provide a list of names and phone numbers? I am skeptical that you know “many” “personally” but if you provide the list, I am willing to verify it for you.
I think if you will take the book of Genesis literally and apply it to what we see today, you will learn that continental drift is a result of the great flood of Noah’s time and that fossils were created as a result of that flood as well. Not all fossils, but a great number of them were. The earth is only 6500 years old. How can carbon dating be used to date anything older than 60,000 years. We haven’t been here that long. Read Genesis. if you can disprove it I would love to see your arguments.
If the great flood caused continental drift, and the flood is now gone, then why are the continents still moving, and why does the mid-Atlantic ridge show geologicial formations that could not be only 6500 years old? The sea floor rock has stripes of rock with vaying magnetic fields, alternating between the current magnetic north and current magnetic south, for when the earth magnetic field changes every so often (measured in millions of years…the US Navy found this out while mapping the ocean bottom with SONAR). Also, fossil evidence points to creatures being dated before, during, after, well after, and millions of years later than the flood. If the flood were true, scitific research would show almost all fossils dated to the alleged time of the flood. It’s not there. Also, the possibility of trillions of gallons of water coming from under the ground (the earth’s core) to cause continents to drift apart is pretty absurd. Have you ever seen volcanoes? Do you know what magma is? The earth’s core is so blasted hot that water cannot possibly come from the depths, because any water in deep aquifers that encounters any kind of magma source is heated to above the boiling point and forced above the surface in hot springs, geysers, or volcanoes. Any water that would have come from the earth, underground, in the volumes needed to cause the flood would hjave been so hot that not even Noah and his Ark would have survived. In fact, no life would have survived the release of such volumes of superheated and pressurized water in that sort of quantity. Logic and facts don’t add up for me to make the Biblical stories seem truthful. Besides, Noahs flood was what, some 4000 years ago supposedly? And the Bible was written around what, 150 AD? Ever heard of the phrase a Big Fish Story. Well, I think you and a lot of other folks have bought one hook, line, and sinker. When I questioned Biblical accounts because of evidence placed before me, I was told to be quiet, to ignore it, that all science is lies, and that only the Good Book is truthful in its historical accounts of the earth. I didn’t buy it as a kid, and I really don’t buy it now.
Further, carbon dating, as I understand it, is incredibly reliable because it is based on the amount of a particular isotope of carbon with a known, measurable half-life. All living things contain a certain amount of this isotope, and when the thing (plant or animal) dies, it can the amount of that carbon isotope contained within its remnants can be tested to ballpark its age. I could understand being off by a handful of decades or a couple of hundred years, but carbon dating has shown numerous living things to be far older than 6500, which is what you claim the earth’s age is. In fact, some rather well preserved remnants of a chinchilla colony in the Atacama Desert of Chile was shown to be in the neighborhood of 10,000 years old. The problem with the flood theory is that the Atacama desert has a few streams that flow down from the Andes mountains to the Pacific ocean, but most of the Atacama desert is so bone dry that these remains have been preserved for longer than 6500 years, well longer than the supposed earth-wide flood. For the flood to be factual, these remains and most of the formations of the Atacama desert would have been destroyed. They weren’t. The Gypsum formations at the floor of the desert have been dated to around 100 million years of age based on fossilized remains found within them. Those rock formations have only been preserved because of the astute lack of rainfall only found there. If a great flood came, the Atacama would have filled with water, destroying the rock formations, the chincilla colony, and all over evidence indicating it’s well-preserved nature of being the driest place on earth. That evidence alone tells me that Biblical accounts are not correct. What I do not understand is why so many people thing that God is somehow limited to only the past 6500 years, when there is not only no proof of that, but there is no way to prove or disprove that God has been controlling the planetary development of Earth for the last 4 billion years or so. That also cannot be proven or disproven, only hypothesized and theorized. I guess it all comes down to whatever you want to beleive. If you think the earth is only 6500 years old, then so be it. I think you’re ignorant of the facts, but it’s your choice. I’m sure you’ll have some interesting way to try and prove that the evidence found by scientists and archaeologists in Chile is somehow wrong or fabricated, and if you think that then that’s also your choice. I see the elephant in the room, I can’t ignore it. But, I suppose some folks can, and do. If you feel a better person for believing as you do, then great for you. I’m not going to question why you believe it, but I will point out why I don’t, which is what I’m doing. I cannot ignore the scientific evidence placed before me and believe in something I regard as not too disimilar from past civilizations beleiving in gods like Poseiden, Thor, Zeus, or Odin.
Evolution denier asks, “How can carbon dating be used to date anything older than 60,000 years. We haven’t been here that long. Read Genesis.” First, I stated that carbon dating can NOT be used to date anything older than 60,000 years. Sixty-thousand years is the upper range of that method’s accuracy (although, even so, 60,000 years is still ten times older than the 6,000 year age of the universe that you have accepted based upon a reading of your preferred scriptures). Other methods are used for dating objects lacking carbon. The various methods consistently converge on an age for the universe and the earth and the objects therein that are several orders of magnitude older than 6,000 years.
Let me just illustrate through one example: the consistent dating of meteorites. Please take a look at this chart:
13 specimens Sm-Nd method 4.21 +/- 0.76
4 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.37 +/- 0.34
38 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.50 +/- 0.02
50 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.43 +/- 0.04
17 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.52 +/- 0.04
15 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.59 +/- 0.06
6 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.44 +/- 0.12
5 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.38 +/- 0.12
13 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.49 +/- 0.02
10 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.46 +/- 0.06
8 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.51 +/- 0.04
8 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.44 +/- 0.13
23 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.53 +/- 0.19
11 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.44 +/- 0.30
13 specimens Lu-Hf method 4.57 +/- 0.19
5 specimens Rb-Sr method 4.45 +/- 0.18
8 specimens Re-Os method 4.57 +/- 0.21
Here you have 247 samples of meteorites and four different dating methods. As you can see, again and again the samples turn out to be older than 4 billion years. These objects range in age from 4.21 to 4.57 billion. Now, the chart lists only a few of the methods used for dating objects. Moreover the 247 specimens are a very, very, very tiny sampling of the objects that have been dated. No matter what method one chooses, and no matter how many samples are tested, the results are nowhere near consistent with a universe that has only existed for 6,000 years.
That is the sort of data that scientists have in their corner–massive amounts of data, data that is internally consistent, data from one set that is consistent with another set. You, on the other hand, have nothing more than a set of stories composed and transcribed (sometimes badly) over a period of several centuries during a time when people had little scientific knowledge. These stories are inconsistent one with the other. These stories contain inaccuracies. Why, then, would anyone rely upon these stories to determine the age of the universe?
Elf Eye,
If I don’t miss my guess, if Evolution Denier sees a conflict between reality and whatever fantasy he has been told the bible says, he will choose the fantasy. Your arguments are based on data and logic. I fear you are casting pearls before swine.
I have asked some theologically challenging questions about the very core of Christianity. Instead of leaping at the chance to defend their faith, both Will and Evolution Denier ignore my posts. For example, why do they choose to take the word of Saul of Tarsus over Jesus and his disciples when it comes to whether to follow Jewish Law or not?
They probably have never even considered this absolutely fundamental aspect of their faith. And yet they are adamant that they, despite their ignorance of science, *must* be right, and overwhelming evidence must somehow be wrong.
The sad thing is, I suspect that they think they will go to hell if they even question what their abusive* pastors have been telling them (lies and threats of eternal torture seem abusive to me).
Shameful, just shameful and really, really sad. You know for you folks who deny Jesus Christ, deny God and have no faith in who Jesus was or what He came to earth to do, you, YOU are the ones who will find out in the end when you will stand before God and say something like..”well, I gave this and I did that and I cursed those who said they knew you, because I believe I am a “good” person and I should, SHOULD be in heaven with You.”
Well let me say this to you folks, you have set your own path..YOU have decided your own fate.
The Bible says that NO ONE can come to Jesus Christ UNLESS GOD CALLS THEM TO HIM.
So if you deny Jesus Christ and the deity of God, them obviously God has not lead you to Jesus Christ, but there is still hope…YOU FIRST HAVE TO SEEK HIM.
The Bible also says that one is to SEEK THE LORD WHILE HE CAN STILL BE FOUND. Otherwise, God allows you to turn to your own self and your own self-proclaimed “wisdom.”
What is so really sad about this is your behavior about it all…you rant and rave and call others’ names and insinuate horrible things about those who DO KNOW CHRIST AND WHO DO TRUST IN GOD BY FAITH AND WHO HAVE ACCEPTED THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR PERSONAL SAVIOR.
Also, Jesus told the Pharisees when they kept asking Him for a “sign” of his deity that to this generation there would be no sign given. You find that in error? Let me also point out to you in the book of Isaiah that God said the only sign of the Savior and Messiah is the FACT THAT HE WILL BE BORN OF A VIRGIN, CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND GIVE HIS FLESH FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD.
That is the only sign you have. All of nature proclaims God’s glory and even nature rejoices in who He is.
Why can’t you? It’s your choice.
But one thing is for sure…a person will spend eternity in either heaven or hell…again, it is your choice.
FIJC,
There is no sign of Jesus the eternal saviour. There never was. Paul made it all up, cobbled together from fragments of the OT. If you follow Jesus, why don’t you follow Jewish Law? He said the law would not pass away. Paul, in disagreement with the disciples, preached otherwise. Yet you follow Paul.
FiJC
What did he come to earth to do? Seriously. What did your Jesus come to earth to do? I know I have covered the idiocy of this particular belief, but I can re-cover it if you need me to do so.
Basically he came to earth in the form of a man because he had been so offended by the disobedience of Adam that he had cursed ALL MANKIND. So, he came because he had been a prick.
He came because he had asigned a blood sacrifice as pennance for things he had decreed crimes. So, he came to earth because he had been a prick and a tyrant.
He came to earth because those things he declared crimes were also things which he had known in advance that mankind would continue to do despite his label as criminal, in part because of the way he made them. So, he came to earth because he had been a prick and an unreasonable tyrant.
He came to earth because after a global flood wiped out 99.99% of mankind they continued to commit cimes against god. So, he came because he had been a genocidal prick and an unreasonable tyrant.
He came to earth because after thousands of years of living with the curse he had laid upon them mankind was going to continue to earn his wrath and be unworthy because of the way he made them. So, he came to earth because he had been a procrastinating genocidal prick and an unreasonable tyrant.
He came to earth to sacrifice himself to himself so he could forgive his creations for the way he had made them. So, he came to earth because he had been a procrastinating, genocidal prick and a convolutedly suicidal, unreasonable tyrant.
And on and on…
He came to earth because he was a moron. If this is the best plan he could come up with for human redemption; your god is an evil idiot.
Maybe I’m an idiot as well, but if God is all powerful and all knowing, and capable of correctly judging and determining the true intention and nature of all of us and our deeds, then why did he have to send Jesus to be sacrificed in order to wash away human sin? The logic on that doesn’t make sense. He’s all powerful, why send someone to be sacrificed when he doesn’t need to do it? Why would we have to pledge alleginace to Jesus, when we could just align with God and remove the middle man? It just does not make sense to me.
Ludicrous…neither heaven nor hell exist. Amazing people still cling to these medieval myths.
FiJC says, “The Bible says that NO ONE can come to Jesus Christ UNLESS GOD CALLS THEM TO HIM.” However, FiJC also says that people who don’t believe in his Jesus have made a “choice” that sets them on a path that will lead to a place called ‘hell’. Does anyone besides me see a little bit of a problem with the logic in that post? FiJC’s idea of a god is of a deity who will punish for an eternity people to whom he never extended an offer of salvation in the first place. This has to be the epitome of a Catch 22. FiJC might say, well, it was the responsibility of the person to “seek” for Jesus. However, it is impossible for a person to “seek” for this deity without already having bought into the notion that such a deity does or could exist. Otherwise, what possible reason would the person have for “seeking”. So there you have it: A person does not believe in FiJC’s deity because this deity has never ‘opened’ the person’s heart to permit the person to ‘come to Jesus’. And on the basis of that, FiJC imagines this individual being tossed for an eternity into some sort of fire and brimstone place. Nice, FiJC.
Elf Eye, Interesting point, for sure. But it’s useless to use logic to argue against faith. People believe what they want to believe in spite of facts and reason all the time. In politics, people vote against their best interests all the time.
what would jesus write in the comment section of dan caseys blog?
Dan is right, arguing with someone who has not responded to our requests with a single piece of evidence; who has not furthered the discussion with rational discourse and who has shown nothing for response other than bigoted preaching and prideful condescension… well it is going nowhere.
The religious right is made up of some of the least educated and lowest income people in America, yet they vote as a block with the republicans who regularly vote against the economic interests of those who make up their base. The Reich votes for the republicans because they have bought the ‘moral majority’ bull—- that Fallwell sold to the entire old south.
In the next election the republicans will reveal themselves for the party of old ideas, of bigotry of hate and xenophobia that Falwell and his ilk made them into over the last 20 years.
But that is not really the point of why I am here. I know I can not help people like him. I am here to use FiJC and those like him to reach moderates and other reasonable people. Maybe those creationists will actually do something useful for education for a change.
If my words (or those who think like me) can make just one person see the foolishness of abrahamic mythology, or the fact that it is no different than any of the other ancient dead mythologies; then we have brought one more person into the light.
If this next generation of America casts off the darkness of bronze age mythology then we will no longer have to hear the lies of creationists that ID is different while they write “Of Pandas and People” and tell dorothy to “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”. They will no longer be able to use deceptive tactics to try to force their foolishness on our children. I will no longer have to hear lies and ignorant justification for the posting of religious bigotry on centers of law and government. Perhaps we can even fix the pledge.
So, Dan is right, but he also misses the point a little here.
Elf Eye,
The idea that the default fate is hell unless you were, by exception, saved, was exactly the problem that my friends and I picked up in primary school (grade 4) when we did religious instruction (yes, they taught religion in our state schools). Australian aborigines were clearly out of the biblical loop until relatively recently – what was meant to happen to them? We kids decided that no sane god would make hell the default.
Dan,
What are you trying to say? Facts and reason are all we have, in the end. Voting against your self interests is not part of this discussion There are good reasons to vote against your self-interest: there is always the community interest, common good, environmental impact, future generations, and so forth to set your self interest aside.
Agreed, Elf Eye, it is amazing that FJC can’t see it. It would be fascinating to see what is going on within such a mind, like it just disconnects at “convenient” times.
I liked this one where FJC is proclaiming his jebus is the only sign given for evidence of his god idea and at the same time everything is:
“That is the only sign you have. All of nature proclaims God’s glory and even nature rejoices in who He is.”
Perhaps FJC can tell specifically what a praying mantis is proclaiming and rejoicing while its mate eats its head during sexual intercourse. “OH God, eat me”, seems inappropriate as the male is the one that completes the act while headless. FJC’s god idea certainly includes some wild sexual ideas.
Warlock: Jesus Christ came to earth for the sole purpose to give His life by death on the cross to ATONE FOR THE SINS OF MANKIND….so we would not have to.
Somebody is going to pay the sin-debt….Jesus already paid it; His work for redemption of mankind was completed at His death and resurrection.
So, if one chooses not to believe and accept this, then that person will pay the sin-debt at their death; to be eternally separated from God.
I am in total agreement with what God said: “A fool says in his heart there is no God.”
Echidna, All I’m saying is many, many, many people believe what they want to believe. Facts and reason won’t necessarily shake them from those beliefs. And here are a couple of other points:
1) The lack of evidence for something does not mean it is untrue. It merely means there’s a lack of evidence for it AT THIS TIME. This reminds me of the story of the doctor from New Zealand who believed the bacteria H pylori was responsible for a large proportion of stomach ulcers. For years, this man was considered the crackpot of his profession. Until it was proven to be true. Then he won the Nobel Prize for medicine. The doubters, all of whom (apparently) had science on their side, turned out to be incorrect.
2) Divinity doubters will never be able to prove to FIJC’s satisfaction that there is no God. For one thing, it is impossible to prove a negative. For another, FIJC will believe what he wants to believe anyway.
Romans 10:17
Galations 2:16
Galations 3:26
John 3:16
Phillipians 3:9
Romans 3:22
Galations 3:22
All I know is that there have been many examples of scientific data and evidence put forth here that dispute many Biblical claims, and no one has attempted to take them on. They say to give proof, then when the evidence is presented, they are silent. The one thing I have learned on this thread is that I will not bash my head into a wall by speaking/debating with people who refuse to engage in a debate that they seem to ask for, who then ignore anything counterpounts put forth, and continue to claim that there is no proof that the Bible is wrong. What I do know is that there seems to be sufficient evidence to dispute the Bible as being a fact-based book. I think it’s a great collection of stories and tales that can offer guidance for people who seek to discover their meanings within the scriptures. Taken literally, it appears highly inaccurate and often-times quite perverse…though it can be debated how much of that is due to the editng jobs of the various translaters through time. This has been an interesting thread, and it has been eye opening to see the various sides put forth and the lack of actual, reasonable debate or discussion that has actually taken place despite nearly 400 posts. Much has been said without accomplishing a thing. I had hoped to learn something about how Christianity addresses scientific evidence that seemingly contradicts the Bible, but all I’ve seen is blind clinging to the Book without any direct comment on how the evidence dovetails/cotnradicts a thing. It seems as though facts that support the Bible are accepted, but facts arrived at by the same methods that cotnradict the Bible are ignored as heresy or satanic. That’s pretty telling, and unfortunately I haven’t really learned a thing that helps me understand the religion any more than when I asked many of these same questions as a kid and was told almost the identical lines. And with that, I’m done with my part as well.
Dan Casey, I think Echidna is correct and my respond to your two points is:
1) Evolution has been proven. In your example the doubters would still be imposing their will if the situation was the same as what the christians are doing regarding evolution.
2) Divinity doubters aren’t so much concerned with what christians believe. The concerns are that christians impose their beliefs, which lack evidence, on everyone else. Instead of applying their beliefs to only those practicing christianity, they insinuate that christianity needs to apply to everyone by default. Its like requiring everyone to get a lobotomy simply because christians want it to happen.
FiJC
So, you agree that Jesus (one personality of an eternal being with infinite life span, knowledge, power, who is not effected by time and who loves all mankind) came to earth to sacrifice himself to himself for some of the actions (which he had chosen to make crimes) of man (which he had chosen to make live thousands of years ago). Now he knew in advance that these self described criminal actions would happen, yet he chose to make the individual men and women who would commit them anyway. He created these men and women and continued creating them since the garden, knowing that they would have to go to hell for eternal punishment and knowing that he would not start up the system which bypasses the ‘everyone goes to hell’ thing for over 4000 years.
Now all this came about because (before he created man) He created a being (without freewill) who rebelled (without freewill- weird right?) and became Satan (but do not forget that your god knew this was going to happen in advance because he is ‘all knowing’). Now this being (who was evil) came into the evil-free zone that was the Garden of Eden in the form of an evil snake. Satan (an evil being in evil snake form) tempted Eve and she ate the forbidden apple, whereby allowing evil to enter the evil free (except for Satan who was already there, weird right?) earth.
Your god was so pissed off by the disobedience of his creations (but he knew in advance because he was all-knowing and timeless so he had had infinity to get used to the idea before he even created the woman who was going to defy him, weird that after infinity he was still pissed off about it right? He must be a real ego-maniac.) that he cursed them to suffering and pain followed by eternal torment in hell unless they believed in things which would not occur for another 4000 years.
This all sounds perfectly reasonable and straight forward. I am sure you have no trouble explaining it to your children.
On to bigger and better things.
Why should I pay a debt that I do not owe? I owe nothing to your god or your jesus, because I do not believe that they are real, I have no evidence that they exist and no reason to think they did any of the things you claim. The things they have declared as crimes against themselves are for the most part things I do not do anyway or things which are offenses against only those fictional beings.
I did not ask for jesus to impose these evil punishments or self-serving rules, I did not ask for him to have a bad afternoon for me, I did not ask for him (or you) to act like it was a real sacrifice (because even if your jesus did all the things in the bible what kind of sacrifice is a single day of torment for an eternal being? And for that matter where does he get off having a bad day when he is sentencing his creations to ETERNAL TORMENT?
Not that it should surprise anyone, but have you considered the balance involved in this sacrifice? Jesus, an eternal, all powerful, all knowing being voluntarily has a bad day out of his ETERNAL LIFE and this is supposed to equal the suffering to which he has forcibly and with full foreknowledge condemned billions of his creations for billions of years (all but 6000 of which has to occur in the future wince the world is only 6000 years old). While it should not be surprising to anyone that this ego-maniacal mind came up with this trade-off.
But god is the nice one right, because he said so.
Warlock: Lucifer (who is satan) was created by God and was given great responsibility in heaven…Lucifer was an angel of light; he was a beautiful angel….until he tried to exalt himself equal to and above God.
At that point, he was kicked out of heaven along with one-third of the angels, and given the realm of the earth and air as we see it. You can read this in Isaiah.
Let’s talk about the human heart. God created mankind in His own image, that of the Spirit, created the flesh of mankind from dust (for which the flesh will return) and the Spirit of man returns to the creator.
Now this…if you want proof that God exists, examine your heart. Do you deeply love your spouse, parents, children, friends, animals? Now where do you think that deep love came from?…no not from you; it came from God. God reveals Himself to every man.
Have you ever felt deep compassion for your own sorrows or those of others? again, that came from God.
The Gospel of man’s redemption is very simple, very profound and a deep mystery that not everybody can understand.
God did not and does not tell us everything. God reveals to those what He chooses to reveal and when He wants to.
As my own testimony, in most instances, God allows something exceedingly profound and traumatic emotionally to happen in someone’w life in order to get their attention and draw them to Him. (Paul for example on the road to Damascus).
Even with faith as small as a mustard seed, when you seek God, He is there.
I know I am not very articulate when it comes to writing and conveying information to enlighten, but all I can tell you is this – in a profound way, my heart has been changed. And now even in the face of what I can see such as illness, trauma, death, suffering, struggling, there is a sense of deep underlying peace that I know is only from God himself.
Does that mean that God is going to pick us up by the seat of the pants and make us go to work? absolutely not!
Warlock, if you want answers, ask God to show you, and He will. Examine your heart and ask God to give you a new heart…believe me it absolutely cannot be described it is so profound.
Amazing actually.
Faith is the hope and trust in what we cannot see.
I am familiar with your mythology. You should be able to see this by the fact that I regularly bring up the beliefs claimed by your cult.
I do not believe in your god, so I can not ask him for anything. If I did, (as I have said previously) I would not because he is an evil prick not worthy of worship.
If your god did something to convince me that he existed and was in fact the abrahamic god, I would not worship him due to the horror of the bible, christianity and its tenets.
I know you do not see this, but it is there for you to see. I have tried to spell it out plainly for you, but as I have previously stated, I am not here for you, I am here for those for whom there is hope for redemption.
For you – why did god introduce evil to the universe by creating satan whom he knew was going to do/be evil?
As for emotions, emotions are chemical reactions to stimuli that occur within my body. You offer no proof for your claim that those particular chemical reaction are ‘from god’, you only assert it. I deny this as unproven.
The gospel of redemption is not simple but it is easily understood. I understand the plan, but I deny it (for all the reasons I have listed above)as foolishly convoluted, and idiotic (obviously the plan of a superior being).
I deny faith and assign it a value less than dog vomit. I prefer evidence. Faith is belief without evidence. Christian Faith is belief inspite of evidence.
When I was a christian I thought I had a special relationship with your god. I thought I had all the answers. A thorough reading of the bible cured me of my delusion. You may need medication to help, but you too can overcome your mythology too.
Faith is the hope and trust in what we cannot see. – FJC
However, most thinking people don’t hope and trust in the disgusting ideas promoted by a christian.
Notagod, Thanks for being such a loyal poster on this blog. Given your strong feelings on the subject, I could understand if you regarded “ideas promoted by a christian” as silly, outdated, incorrect, wrongheaded, disagreeable, etc.
What’s hard (for me) to fathom is that you would find such ideas “disgusting.” What is so disgusting about them? If you believe they’re mere folk tales, what’s the big deal?
Dan, is this an open question or just for Not?
If someone were to read my posts I am certain that they could come up with 2-3 ideas christians support/believe in/etc which are disgusting.
VVarlock, or others, consider it an open question.
Again, I guess I’m keying in on the adjective “disgusting.” There are a number of religions whose followers’ beliefs I find bizarre, strange, whatever. It’s just that I never thought of those in terms of the word “disgusting.” They don’t turn my stomach, nor do they threaten me, you know?
And as for your “they’re mere folk tales, what’s the big deal?” I challenge this point. They are not mere folk tales.
No one can think that they are folk tales when @ 100 million christians actually change their thoughts/actions based upon what they are told about these beliefs/tenets/dogma.
Millions of Americans are actually impacted, every day, by people who believe these vile/disgusting things or by their actions which are based upon this bronze age morality.
I know this is an incomplete list and that the present ones do not apply to EVERY christian today…
Disgusting christian beliefs past.
Slavery is fine, witchcraft is real, women belong to their husbands and have no right to refuse their husband marital ‘rights’.
Disgusting christian beliefs present.
Misogyny.
Hell.
Heaven.
Blood Sacrifice, 6000 year old earth, Anti-science creationism.
Original Sin.
Faith is a good valuable, vaunted thing; anti-evidence.
Inequality of others like homosexuals and atheists.
Proselytizing is good.
Paul/Saul is following the teachings of jesus.
Lot was a good man worthy of being saved from Sodom/Gomorrha.
Many more but not enough time to list them all.
Not everybody who professes to be a Christian is a Christian. In fact, God said that you will know them (meaning false prophets, unregenerate people, etc.) by their fruit.
Also, so many people even professing Christians misunderstand the relationship between a man and a woman in marriage. There is no contradiction in God’s word for this. Some men think erroneously that women “belong” to them and they can treat them anyway they want. Just look at the muslim people.
God created woman to be a HELPMATE to her husband, not to be talked down to or treated abusively or as a second-class citizen.
The difference in Christianity and other religions is there is only one divine person and that is Jesus Christ.
The other self-proclaimed “saviors” such as buddha or mohammed or others is that they were human beings, conceived by the flesh and are now dead and in their graves. They are not alive and sitting at the right hand of God.
The flesh cannot save the flesh; we are spiritual beings created in the image of God.
Being a follower of Jesus Christ and believing in Him and what He did does not make his followers superior to anyone. In fact, humility is one outward sign of a Christian. There is no room for arrogance or hautiness for to be that way is not evidence of a Christian.
To each his own.
Dan, regarding your open question about disgusting Christian ideas?
I find it disgusting that Christian belief and practice makes its followers feel worthless, and the church uses that as a means of social control. Different versions in different denominations, but the principles hold.
An example is the idea of original sin, that every baby is already tainted. This idea is still seen in the anti-abortion lobby, that is not really pro-life, because the idea of helping those in need doesn’t seem to be on the agenda. What a fetus represents is a soul, destined for hell, that has no chance of being saved. This is disgusting. The history here is long, when the church demanded much money for performing a wedding, and a baby out of wedlock was damned.
I remember chanting as a young child “Oh my guilt, oh my guilt, oh my great guilt” as part of the church ritual. I was chastised for lying for not confessing non-existent sins. Any type of child-abuse is disgusting – lets not go further down that road.
Also disgusting is the idea that lying is ok, if it promotes belief in God. I believe that all YEC’s are in this boat, either that, or they have been conned by liars. I think that some take Rom3:7 to mean that lying is ok, if it is done for the glory of God.
And worst of all is that evidence of the real world is somehow inferior to some mystical faith. 1col1:19 What a recipe for keeping people from thinking and breaking free of the worthlessness being drummed into them every week. The reward? Fantasy about an afterlife.
And then there is the anti-semitism, found throughout the NT (e.g. Matthew 27:25.); seen throughout the history of the church, expounded by Martin Luther, and finally the crazed idiot with the shotgun fired the bullet (1939-1945). Gott mit uns.
I think the word “disgusting” is quite appropriate.
Again the no true scotsman fallacy. You claim that they were not really christians because they did things that you disagree with.
For over 50 years christians (especially catholics) have been trying to deny Hitler and his movement, but he was undoubtedly motivated by his catholocism (christianity) and motiviated by the bible in his persecution of the jews.
Just because you or your sect disagree with a person or their actions does not mean that 1-they are not true christians 2-your sect did not agree with them in the past (slavery). Who are you to judge who is a true christian, who are you to say that your sect is right and someone else’s is incorrect? Pride makes you say things like this.
Does anyone know the main thing that caused the split between the Baptists and the Southern Baptists?
If I get to “know them by their fruit”, none of you are christian in the way you mean because virtually all of your works are evil. Anyone who teaches the evil of hell or the inequality of persons or the doctrine of Original Sin or that the earth is 6000 years old; all of these people are not worthy of what you actually mean when you say christlike/christian. My morality is superior to that of every one of those people. You are a den of vipers, spreading small-minded and xenophobic hurt throughout your purview.
As for the rest of your garbage – there is no evidence to support that god made woman, that god exists, that jesus actually existed and was divine, that he is not in a grave somewhere, that he ever actually made it into the tomb in the first place, or that he is alive 2000 years later. There is no better evidence for christianity than there is for the Hindu Mythology or the Norse Mythology.
In my many years as a critic of christianity I have never found it to be true that ‘humility is a … sign of christianity’. Most of the people whom I speak with or debate are offensively arrogant, condescending and claim superior knowledge which they almost always say is not available to a person who values reason over faith.
I am also not sure that Mohammed or buddha claimed to be a savior, but those are not my speciality and my familiarity with them is limited to some study in college and some self study years ago.
As for the misogyny of the bible, it is clear and obvious that paul/saul was a misogynist and it appears that Jesus was not. It should not suprise me that paul/saul hated women, he hated everyone and lied about most of his work. His bigoted words perpetuate the OT hatred of homosexuals, his words forbid women from being pastors/priests, his words apply the words of Jesus to the whole world despite Jesus’ very clear message that he was here only for the jews, his words try to do away with the OT law despite Jesus saying very clearly that he is not changing the law.
Your religion is evil, your teachings are evil, you have no evidence to support your evil. Get ye behind me and spread your deceitful ‘love’ no more.
Echidna, I know you’re making a mistake in presuming that Christianity makes all of its followers “feel worthless.” Certainly that is not true.
VVarlock, you should read “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer.” It might change your mind that Hitler “was undoubtedly motivated by his catholocism (christianity) and motivated by the bible in his persecution of the jews.”
VVarlock, my understanding of Mohammad was that he claims to have been spoken to by the angel Gabriel, and had the Qur’an revealed to him through this angel. My understanding is that the Qur’an was claimed to be the last revelation of Abrahamic religion, and that it was revealed because of the flawed nature of Christian and Jewish theology and scripture at that point in history, that they were not worshipping God as was originally intended. Mohammad never claimed to be a savior, only a messenger, and in Islam, Mohammad is regarded only as such, similar to how Muslims view Jesus as a prophet and messenger as well. Much debate can be said regarding the accuracy/truthfulness of this since it was a good 1400 years ago and none of us were alive then, but that’s my understanding. For my understanding of the Buddha, he definitely did not claim to be any kind of a savior, only an example of how to be spiritually awakened. Buddhists do not worship the Buddha either or see him as any kind of savior (that sort of concept does not apply), they try to learn from his teachings. It’s possible that some of what I mention may not be accurate, I’m only speaking from what I know at this point. If any of this is wrong, I sincerely apollogize in advance.
It is an absolute abomination what the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH has done to Christ and the Gospel.
While there are folks within the Roman Catholic Church who do know Jesus Christ and who He was on this earth and what He came to do, the vast majority of people who belong to that demonination are manipulated and deceived. This statement I make is certainly not to make other folks feel bad or to create any type of adversity whatsoever.
The Roman Catholic Church has pretty much taken the position of God and conveys salvation through man (the pope)instead of Jesus Christ.
At last! An atheist and a Christian (kind of) agree on something!
VVarlock, in a sideways kind of way, blames Catholicism for Hitler and the Holocaust.
FIJC calls the Roman Catholic Church’s work “an abomination.”
Do I see common ground building?
Probably not. This will be like some awkward drunken kiss between two members of the same sex who then realize what happened immediately afterward and refuse to ever mention it again.
Jokes aside, seeing as how we’re some 2000+ years removed from Jesus walking the planet, how do any of us really know of what he preached and spoke? We don’t actually have any proof of it, only books that were passed down verbally for years before being transcribed to text form and credited to Jesus through various people who heard him. None of us really knows what happened. I guess that’s where the whole faith thing comes in.
God is dealing with that Roman Catholic Church; He is exposing them for what they truly are.
Most importantly here though, the word “catholic” means universal and it symbolizes the spiritual universal church of Christ-believers and followers.
The church universal has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM WITH THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.
fijc,
No, the church universal has a long history tied in with the catholic church.
Dan,
You are wrong if you think that Chritianity does not trade on feelings of worthlessness. The message is quite clear: original sin means you are doomed but for belief in a saviour. You are helpless to save yourself unless you follow your churches teachings. Stick and carrot, trading in worthlessness. You are only allowed to feel ok if you do everything you are told to do. Of course you will tell me that Christianity makes you feel better. That is how you are trained to respond.
I did not say that the goal is to make people feel worthless all the time. It is to make them believe that they are worthless without their faith. You may not understand until you have some distance.
And by the way, VVarlock is not wrong about Hitler and the Catholic church. It might be that you are removed in time and space from Hitler’s Austria (where he grew up), but for many years the church, in tandem with the monarchy had been persecuting Jews, with guidance from the Church.
Dan, I would suggest some reading for you: First, the section on Desecration of the Host in the Jewish encyclopedia. This will show you that it not just the Germans (as Shirer seems to suggest), but something fundamental in Christianity.
Have you read Martin Luther’s “On the Jews and their lies?”
Before you distance yourself by saying “oh, but that was the Catholic church, that was in Europe”: have you forgotten the refusal of countries around the world to take in Jewish refugees?
Echidna, You wrote that “I find it disgusting that Christian belief and practice makes its followers feel worthless, and the church uses that as a means of social control.” I took that to mean that you know how they feel, and I question whether you do.
Martin Luther wrote “On the Jews and their Lies” decades after his excommunication from the Catholic Church. It is a vicious text, for sure, and no doubt played a large role in anti-Semitism in Europe — but it’s pretty hard to pin on the Catholics.
echidna: Jesus Christ is the head of the church universal which is the holy catholic church….the pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church and they have put him above or equal to Jesus Christ. They claim you cannot get to Jesus Christ except through the pope, and that only the pope can save souls and forgive sins.
Again, the Roman Catholic Church is NOT the holy catholic church.
echidna: your response to Dan sounds like what the RCC does. Do you not see that that is so unlike Jesus Christ?
Original sin is what created the fall of man from the garden of eden..disobedience by Adam and Eve; that is the original sin.
The RCC will tell people that no one is forgiven of original sin; that is not true through Jesus Christ’s teachings. God says this – confess your sins and you will be forgiven and shown mercy.
The RCC says you have to ask forgiveness from their “priests.”
The RCC also claims priesthood with the head being the pope. God says that Jesus Christ is the one true priest.
Dan Casey:
I’ve spent a fair amount of time thinking about your questions, including writing rather long responses and then deciding the content was already covered by myself and others before you asked the questions, so your questions must mean something else but, I’m not sure what that would be. The comments by others that are in opposition to the christian god idea, regarding the disgusting aspects of christianity, seem valid to me, are you dismissing all our comments in that regard?
Your question regarding christian folk tales and what’s the big deal is often posed by christians, often I think in an attempt to discredit the criticism. Oddly enough posing that question does nothing to fix the problems with christianity. The christians present their god idea as if it had authority over everyone, christianity should be imposed on christians only, if at all. Otherwise, your question should be rephrased and asked of christians not of those that are defending themselves from the christian. Additionally, religion and government shouldn’t be mixed, it isn’t good for anyone (no, not good for christians either, honest), except those officials that want to work under a veil of secrecy and the resulting corrupted policies. That should be evident from the problems within the United States in the last decade (dovetailing with a hard push by those loud christians to set christianity as a centerpiece of government) and other religion dominated countries, which often demonstrate unhealthy governments. Government needs to be accountable to the people not to a god idea and faith.
One other thing, the christians push the disgusting idea that the planet is in its last days. That ideology promotes a frame of mind that allows all the earths resources to be used without regard to the naturally expected time that the planet could sustain life. I find it disgusting that the sustainability of life is in danger due to the selfish pursuit of a god idea. I am sorry to burst the selfish bubble that you paint me in (that is, why should I care as it is just fairy tales to me) but, I am more concerned with the problems the christians are causing generally than what they are doing to me personally.
That should give you an idea of why I am effected (not by choice, not only me) by the christian fairy tales. I will never stop defending myself from the christian aggression. The christians are the ones that keep pushing the rest of us. If the christians want a theocracy they should pursue that honestly and in the light of day, instead of by hiding in the dark, as they also have their god idea do with regard to evolution.
I hope that gives you a taste of my concerns. Christians could still be “christian” (whatever that is, as it is obviously different for each of them) without forcing it on others.
Dan,
You astound me. I do not claim to know how anybody else feels. You can question whether I do until the cows come home – it’s a ridiculous straw man that you have put up.
I am talking about what the Church does; its mode of operation. How people respond to that is going to vary immensely.
Christianity (catholic and protestant alike) teaches:
Your soul is in mortal peril if you do not believe according to the Creed (which varies a bit from church to church).
You alone cannot save yourself, it must be through a Christian salvation. Your efforts, without faith, are worth nothing.
It is, therefore, dangerous (i.e. threat of eternal damnation at the very least) to not have faith.
FIJC has stated this position clearly, over and over again. I disagree completely, but he(?) has been totally convinced of the above teachings, and he is hardly alone. Most people are not so full-on, but many, many Christians can’t understand how life could have meaning without faith.
Luther’s anti-semitic writings date from his earliest letters. Anti-semitic papal decrees date back hundreds of years before then. The Catholic/Protestant split had little influence, and was not influenced by, anti-semitism as far as I know. I am not trying to “pin it” on the Catholic church, in the modern sense. I am claiming the Catholic Church, the rather powerful branch of Christianity from which Protestant churches derive and in this sense are no different, has had a powerful role in anti-semitism in Europe, and the English-speaking world.
Dan Casey,
Apparently, you would be surprised how many atheists are former christians. I can’t claim that because, I can’t say that I ever really bought the hook, line and sinker. However, I did give it several honest attempts, so I certainly have tasted the hook and line and sinker. I don’t think christianity by necessity makes all christians feel worthless, some of them simply choose to ignore that part of their religion, as they generally do with any other part they want to ignore or twist (I will admit to not participating in the stoning to death part, maybe that is why the christian god idea never gave me the “sign”.) Surely, stating that every christian is a sinner when born, isn’t intended to make christians feel that they were wonderful innocent babies. I would suggest that is just a simple flaw in the plan but, according to the christian nope it isn’t.
Dan,
I have a copy and have read most of it. Never got it finished, but I have read most. I am aware of it, but Shirer’s christianity caused him bias that you would expect of a journalist. If he had a background as a historian, I think his work would have been less flawed. Not to offend you as a journalist, but as is seen in the works of commentators every night on Faux, MSNBC and CNN personal prejudices influence them to a greater degree than would be allowed of an Historian.
http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm Here is a link which, while obvious in its bias does illuminate some of his christianity. The best thing about that site is that it does nothing to hide its bias, unlike Shirer or the ID movement.
Hitler operated with the full support of the Catholic church, even a few statements from the pope seem to support this. The Tridentine Mass (which pope nazi re-instituted a few years back) is a outright verbal assault on Jews the likes of which I rarely deliver to the christians.
I will give that Hitler is not what most christians mean when they say ‘christian’ and that he was into some weird occult stuff that even the catholic church and the fundagelicals think is weird.
As for Christianity teaching that its people are worthless… Echidna is right. The doctrine of original sin in its basic form means that we are all born sinful, base, vile and worthy of hell. It is only through accepting Jesus can we become worthy of heaven. Human actions/deeds are worthless and we can not overcome our sinful disgusting nature but Jesus can help us get a free pass into heaven.
Whether all sects actively preach this doctrine in this form is doubtful since there are thousands of sects and many of them soften the horror and flinch away from the harsher doctrine, but if you speak to those who use buzz-words like bible believing, evangelical or creationist you will find that a sizable majority are taught this (having the perspective of 6 different crazy ‘bible church’ sects in TX/OK/MO over 5 years and having spoken to many recovering Fundagelicals I feel confident saying this.) Have you seen Jesus Camp? Have you seen the loony rantings of street preachers on Youtube? These are extreme examples, but the doctrine is what it is and means what it means. Some sects grant children exemption until 7 or 12 some do not, but the actuality of believing in original sin means that you think we are born in sin (thus worthless or at minimum unworthy of the ‘glory of god’).
Catholics from Constatine to Thomas Aquinas to Martin Luther expressed anti-semetic views. And – If Jesus was a Jew, then Martin Luther was a catholic. He may have been a reformer and may have tried to change then subsequently left his church, but he was born and raised a catholic and his world view was formed by catholocism, small matter that he was excommunicated.
OtherJohn – thank you, that is about what I remembered, but it has been long enough that I did not feel confident commenting. And hahahaha, love the analogy, I often agree with christians when we talk about something other than how horrid their beliefs are (which I rarely do, I do not speak as eloquently as I type so it is less than weekly that I berate some random christian who draws my ire IRL). But I think FiJC would view a kiss between us as an abomination and have to stone himself.
You also have a great point about what we know about jesus’ words. We have the words of no actual contemporaries of jesus and many of the accounts we do have disagree significantly and the works of Paul/Saul are very different from the words others attribute to jesus.
FiJC – if you god is dealing with the catholic church he has an odd way of doing it. They have one big scandal, but the other christian churches all have their scandals too. From Christian senators to Ted Haggard and Kent Hovind. None of these holier than thou scumbags has half the decency or morality I exercise daily. Besides if god is punishing the catholic church he must find 29 billion dollars (of basically untaxed income) a year a huge punishment.
FIJC,
The confusion with RCC and catholic church is not that I have my definitions wrong. When I talk about the Church, in this context, I am mainly talking about medieval Europe, which is definitely RCC, but is also inclusive of the subsequent protestant denominations.
If you take a look at the topics discussed, they are common to Christianity, not specific to the RCC.
And FIJC, do not presume to teach me Catholic doctrine. It would help if you got the details right: the pope is the Bishop of Rome, first among equals.
I have no idea what you are trying to tell me in #407, except that my response is unlike Jesus Christ. I suggest that you tell me who the historical Jesus was, beyond what the bible says. Then we can talk.
Echidna, OK, I accept your explanation that you don’t presume to know whether Christian beliefs/doctrine makes it followers feel worthless. But you did write that and it appeared odd, and that is why I questioned it.
And I’m glad you’ve backed away from citing something Luther wrote more than 20 years after the Catholic Church kicked him out as evidence that Catholics helped create an anti-Jewish fervor that infected much of Europe. I am not necessarily arguing they didn’t — only that that essay is poor evidence that they did. It’s like suggesting that Jack Parr is somehow responsible for a gaff made by Jay Leno … just doesn’t follow.
VVarlock: One of the many overarching points in Rise and Fall was that Hitler used everybody, all of the time, through flattery, promises, lies, treaties and alliances. That included Hindenburg, Chamberlain, Stalin, the Poles, the Pope, Protestant leaders and many, many others. All of them saw him for what he truly was way, way, way too late in the game, the Christians of various denominations included. And there is every reason to believe that the fealty he expressed to the Catholic church in the web site you cited (assuming that material is true) was just another way that he fooled the people he wished to exploit.
Dan,
Thank you for making the effort to try to understand what I am writing. It is a little difficult, because I suspect that we have very different perspectives on religion, and entirely different cultural backgrounds, because I can see you respond at times as if I had said something which I have not, and you are attributing (probably US) perspectives to me that I do not hold. We may also be divided by a common language.
I am not “backing away” from anything I’ve said. I am clarifying things where your responses do not match what I intended to write.
I cited the Jewish Encyclopedia, and Luther’s work. You have ignored the Jewish Encyclopedia, which is by far the more comprehensive reference, and instead focused on the rantings of Luther – which is still a powerful anti-semitic religious document, and supports my point that the “church” has promoted anti-semitism in Europe for centuries. The distinction between denominations is largely irrelevant, because the splits did not occur over anti-semitism.
Hitler was a master speaker an manipulator, and managed to tap into feelings of nationalism and religious fervour, as well as the anti-semitism that had been promoted by the church for centuries. I have spoken to people who heard him speak in person, and there is no doubt that he could be very persuasive. What is your point? Whether Hitler was, or was not a “true Christian” is not as important as the fact that the Church had set the scene for the atrocities, and supported Hitler materially, since he appeared to be a better alternative to communism, and the probable confiscation of Church property.
I stand by my point that Christian beliefs and doctrine are designed to make people feel worthless. I did not claim that I know how other people feel. These are distinctly different claims.
If what I have written is unclear, VVarlock has been most eloquent, and I concur with every word of his.
Dan
The pope is infallible, the earthly voice of an all-powerful being. The pope can not be in error. If the pope was used it must be because god wanted it that way. haha
Yes, Hitler was a skilled manipulator. However, in his earliest moments he was a catholic, while writing Mein Kampf, he was a catholic. He expressed his christianity numerous times throughout his reign and his actions are consistent with catholic and christian sentiment at the time. There is every reason to believe that he thought himself a christian.
The material at the link is authentic as far as I can tell (I have looked up the quotes elsewhere and have found the references to his catholicism in other places). I admitted that it is a bias site and that they only included information that supported their position, but Shirer did the same thing to an extent, just without the honesty. Amazing that a good christian boy like him would be dishonest… no no it’s not.
VVarlock,
Indeed, Hitler himself claimed he was Christian, and it is dishonest to say that he was not Christian.
1Timothy 3:16 God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, SEEN BY ANGELS, preached among the Gentiles (nations), believed on in the world and was received up in glory (heaven).
Through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and the curse was placed upon all mankind because of this; the flesh (heart and mind)is sinful by nature with no hope of saving itself.
Through one man (Jesus Christ) came redemption and cleansing, and only through 1) recognizing our sinful nature and helplessness; 2) our need of a Savior, who is Jesus Christ; 3) acknowledgement of our helplessness and plea upon God for His help can we be made new again (new heart, new creation).
And at that point our works must show the mercy given to us. God is love.
There are a lot of people who claim to be Christian pastors yet they preach a message of prosperity (that is if you give, give, give you will get, get get, etc.; or those who will tickle the ears of folks to make them “feel good” about themselves, because they want to be told they are “good” and such when their behavior, words, actions and deeds says completely otherwise.
A relationship with Jesus Christ is personal; no man can save another man, nothing we can do can save ourselves.
I know some of you do not believe this and that is your choice; I do not hate you for it, nor do I wish to attack you with words, although some have found God’s word to be offensive.
I believe Jesus Christ is who He says He is and I believe that He is the only way to God. Do you know that Jesus Christ stands before God to intercede for us through our prayer? Read Zechiariah.
And BTW – Hitler was an antichrist; he hated God and thought he could rid the world of the Jewish people; which by the way Israel is the foreshadowing of the spiritual church; Israel did not just spring up on its own; God created Israel to prove His existance and create His church.
Additionally, being born Jewish, proclaiming the Jewish faith does not automatically mean you are going to heaven; just as all the world is saved through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, so must all nations.
Blessings to all.
Freedom in Jesus Christ (BTW – I am a female person)LOL.
VVarlock,
The pope is not infallible. He is not the earthly voice of an all-powerful being. He is a man, voted in by other men. Except, when he is actually a woman. (There is some evidence there was a woman who masqueraded as a man and later was elected pope.)
The president of the Mormon church is not infallible. He is not a prophet. And God does not speak to him, or to the hurricane-diverting Pat Robertson, the whoring Jimmy Swaggart, the meth user/bisexual Ted Haggard or anyone else who postures as a leader of Christian religious movement.
The Imam, Ayatollah, or whatever (pick the highest one) is not infallible. No matter what he says, it is not necessarily the law of an all powerful being, no matter what adherents say.
I do not believe in annointed-by-God holy men or women, of any particular religion. Which does not necessarily mean that I do not believe in the existence of prophets. The second statement does not necessarily contradict the first.
I have experienced mystic states, and I believe some others who have claimed to have experienced them. I haven’t drawn any definite conclusions from these except that they exist and are difficult to explain. But they are profound.
Finally, I do believe in the following lines. They were written by Guy Clark, whom I do not believe is a prophet of God, but whom I do believe is the greatest living American songwriter/poet.
He’s one of those who knows that life
Is just a leap of faith
Spread your arms and hold you breath
Always trust your cape
I do believe in faith, silly as that may seem. And my cape has never let me down.
Dan,
I combat your lyrics with a selection from a lesser lyricist but a quality writer all the same.
Jon BonJovi – These Days.
Jimmy shoes busted both his legs, trying to learn to fly
From a second story window, he just jumped and closed his eyes
His momma said he was crazy – he said momma “I’ve got to try”
Don’t you know that all my heroes died
And I guess I’d rather die than fade away
Dan,
It is true that the religious leaders are only fallible people. I would suggest the same of the writers of holy books.
The problem I have with faith is when people choose faith when they are faced with a conflict between their faith and reality.
It becomes my problem when such people then try to impose their faulty view of reality on me and my family (e.g. that evolution is somehow dodgy, that the earth is absurdly young).
When these people are on state boards of education, then it becomes a problem for the entire world. These attacks on secular education bring the whole religious endeavour into disrepute, and into question.
I feel glad for you that you have your faith; use it wisely. I believe in reality; it has never let me down.
FFIC,
I can’t imagine that we will ever agree even on whether God exists, let alone that a particular book is his word. I can only ask that, unlike some I know, you don’t let the man at the pulpit convince you that reality can’t be real because it conflicts with whatever interpretation of God’s word he is using.
VVarlock, touche!
Echidna, I don’t accept that there’s a necessary conflict between faith and reality (and perhaps you’re not arguing there is).
But I sure get your concern about fundamentalists — of any stripe — serving on school boards, etc.
Dan,
No, there isn’t necessarily a conflict between faith and reality. I can believe in leprechauns without it interfering with my life if I want to.
But belief without evidence leaves you vulnerable to con-artists, and there are enough of those around to cause real trouble. Stick those con-artists in positions of power, and abuse will follow as surely as night follows day.
Religion is the perfect tax-exempt haven for the con-artist, filled with trusting followers.
As nice as your spirituality might be, accepting the word of a con-artist is a mug’s game. The guy at the pulpit never has to prove any of what he says.
That “of any stripe” comment – can you be explicit about what you mean?
Dan Casey, in my experience it is not common for those that have religious tendencies to allow open debate on their blogs. I want to thank you for doing that and I respect you for doing it. Additionally (while I am at it), echidna and VVarlock, your comments are great, nice expressions of knowledge.
I don’t think that is true for most people that have faith though. The closest thing to faith that I have is hope, which I use only when necessary and not happily. Many happy feelings for me when I have all the necessary knowledge so that I don’t have to rely on hope which of course is opposite to those that have the great, powerful and, perfect faith tool. Faith is a much more powerful thing than hope is, as faith is supposedly guided by something external and supposedly has all the correct answers. If faith is true it should always provide the best solution and without excuses.
Marriage is a time when faith followers often use that powerful tool that they possess. All manners of excuses can be given if those marriages fail or aren’t as happy as I would hope they should be when such a powerful tool as faith was used as the initial guide. People that use the powerful faith tool are involved in many tragic events, it is impossible to imagine at times how events could possibly be worse if they hadn’t used that powerful faith tool. If religious leaders aren’t directly selected by god ideas, aren’t they at least all selected using that wonderfully powerful faith tool? Surely, it cannot be true that faith has never failed. It is hard to believe that possessors of faith wouldn’t use their faith tool to select marriage mates and leaders.
What of George Bush in general? His election, or maybe more acturately, his installation as President of the United States could only have been possible because of the heavy use of faith tools. I never had much hope that he had the abilities required of a president but, yeah, I didn’t possess that powerful faith tool either and at least according to christians my reasoned thoughts are lacking. However, before the Iraq invasion George Bush asked for and received huge quantities of invocation of faith tools. So many powerful faith tools were invoked by the followers of George Bush that the actual facts and all reasoned analysis was completely obliterated from the public discourse. Faith is indeed a powerful tool, many of the peoples faith tools told them and George Bush assured, that the invasion was at the direction of christian god idea and that, immediacy was needed as the faith guaranteed weapons of mass destruction were seemingly within minutes of being used to destroy the possessors of faith tools. At that time I used my hope tool against the faith tools of others but, my hope tool even combined with known facts and reasoned thought was no match for the combined strength of the loud and assured unfaltering faith tools of many others. Well, my reasoning tool didn’t let me down but, my hope tool did. The possessors of the faith tool were let down too, though most of them will deny it.
Notagod,
I agree with you that Dan has been remarkably open to discussion. It is a rare discussion to have, most people of faith are much less likely to engage in rational discussion, or even allow it near them.
That leads directly to your other point: faith is often used to shut down reasoning, and is very powerful in doing so. And this, of course, is the source of frustration and anger that Christians detect coming from atheists, and misinterpret as being anger at God or a particular religion or themselves personally. That’s silly, of course, anger is not directed at beings you don’t believe exist; how could you be angry at unicorns and leprechauns? No particular religion is singled out, and it’s not personal either. But choosing to shut down your reasoning skills? That is self-harm, and very painful to watch.
Notagod, echidna, VVarlock, FIJC and others:
I am glad you have enjoyed/been stimulated by/interested in this thread. I’m a little surprised (and maybe a bit saddened) that you find it rare. I’ve enjoyed it, too.
I’ve never felt threatened by any argument, rational or irrational, or logic- or faith-based, or whatever. I have firsthand experience with people who have felt that way, and I’ve always felt sympathy for them, except when they are close to me, in which case it’s more like impatience tinged with irritation (but that is my problem). It’s been a good discussion, and it may continue though I would understand if it does not. You have been fantastic contributors.
(echidna: “of any stripe” — I meant any religious belief, I guess, but I’m generally dogma-phobic )
One of the things I found interesting here — first time I’ve ever heard it, in fact, is that some atheists feel like they are under attack. Never heard that before, and I’m not discounting it; it’s merely a new idea to me. (I have heard the Christians express this but I never bought it.)
Fyi I’ll be developing a new thread very soon about gun control and the 2nd Amendment and would be happy to hear your thoughts on this subject if you care to post them. Please stay tuned and I will, too! Dan
Dan Casey, would you consider laws and attitudes that prevent atheists from holding public office to be “under attack”?
Notagod, My instincts suggest you are being sly with this question — but I’ll play along.
I know of no law in the U.S. that would prevent atheists from holding public office (including the presidential oath). And because I am unaware of the existence of such a law, I would by necessity be unaware of any attack upon it.
What I’d like to know is, where would that attack on a law that prevents atheists from holding office be coming from? Logically, it would be coming from the atheists.
As for attitudes against atheists holding public office: Surely they are out there. But there’s not lot you can do about them, at least in the short term.
A Christian or Jewish or Muslim or whatever politician ought to be able to boast (or not) about his/her faith, and the same goes for atheists, about their lack of faith. But those statements or lack of them should be tempered by political calculation. Nobody has an absolute right to say anything without offending somebody else.
Dan,
You misunderstood Notagod. He(?) meant that if such a law existed, would you consider it an attack on atheists?
echidna, OK, if the way you rephrased it is what notagod meant, then my answer is, I would consider such a law 1) an attack on the Constitution and 2) and attack on atheists.
But that doesn’t get us into the attitudes in his question, which are a far stickier proposition.
And I’m not sure your interpretation is what notagod meant. It’s a very oddly phrased question.
Dan,
Notagod will tell us if I have it right or not. It’s just that I have a shrewd idea of where the question is leading. What made the phrasing odd was that he was working in the “under attack” phrase used earlier, and it brought in some ambiguity.
I will leave it to Notagod to pursue the line I think is being followed.
As for the stickier question of attitudes, I think those are very strong and enduring historical attitudes, dating back a long, long way. We like to imagine that we live in a present of our own making. I suspect that we carry with us ideas and attitudes from generation to generation, many of which we accept without examination.
Firstly: atheism up until the Enlightenment was a heresy punishable by death. The religious wars that had been ravaging Europe had left many people disillusioned with the Church and religion in general. The leading lights of the time, Voltaire, Benjamin Franklin and others, believed that atheism should not be punishable by death, and this was one of the founding principles of the US. Consider what this means for the idea that the Constitution enshrines Christian foundations of the US.
The enlightenment brought great change. First the geologists began to understand just how old the earth was. Darwin was part of this. The discovery of Australia was quite a shock as well. The existence of the platypus led Darwin (a theologian) to exclaim that it looks like there were two creations. A big insight for Darwin when he was in Australia was that all sorts of change can be driven by the environment. The concept that people were not born to particular “stations” in life came into question when ex-convicts in England, who had been poor low-life, were now pillars of society. The idea that life for everyone is a lot better if society as a whole looks after the disadvantaged became a founding principle of the Constitution of Australia.
I believe that the attitudes in the very conservative sections of the US are still blindly fighting against the enlightenment, including the very idea that atheists should have a position in society.
Dan Casey, as per usual echidna is correct. The odd phrasing was due to my desire to reference your prior comment, “is that some atheists feel like they are under attack”. It seemed odd when I wrote my comment but it seemed understandable too so I let it go. Sorry for the confusion, I was not attempting to be sly.
A bill to repeal such a law in Arkansas died in committee.
http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/2009/R/Pages/BillStatusHistory.aspx?measureno=HJR1009
I think it is very significant that that bill died. It appears there are at least five (probably at least eight) other state with such laws. The United States Supreme Court has ruled on such laws stating “We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person ‘to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.’” However, I have closely followed several cases as they were deliberated by the justices and I have noted the extreme value they sometimes place on the exact wording and circumstance of the cases before them. Note that the justices don’t actually state that atheists cannot be barred from holding office, they state that the government cannot force a person to profess belief. I know that seems the same but that is the type of argument that is sometimes made by the court itself. That is, if the court doesn’t specifically state the laws barring atheists from holding office are unconstitutional then they haven’t actually made a ruling on such laws, even if it seems that they have. The only thing that can safely be asserted is that several states do have such laws and one state recently refused to remove such a law. Having such laws can be enough for some people to justify their attitude to themselves.
I wasn’t asking what can be done about the attitudes but, rather if you would considered that it would justify a feeling of being “under attack”. However, I’m always open to listening to ideas about what can be done about it. I do know that when we were quite and didn’t speak out against the christian’s attacks we continually were set back further and further, little by little.
There may also be county/city laws that bar atheists, not sure though. Just seems that I have read/heard that.
quite = quiet, in my second to last comment.
Now that Notagod has confirmed the interpretation, the point he makes is a very good one. Several states have written into the constitution that forbid atheists from taking office.
For example, the Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution (Article I, Section 4) says an official could be “excluded from holding office” if she/he does not “acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.”
These laws are assumed to have been ruled unconstitutional in 1961, when an atheist was appointed in Maryland to become a Notary Public, and denied his commission. Justice Black ruled in his favour, but the parts of the state constitutions that are out of line are still in place.
All of the stuff that was added to the pledge, currency etc. to show those “godless communists” that America was a god-fearing country still lingers, along with the attitudes that godlessness equates to anti-American.
This double standard makes it obvious: a militant Christian or militant Islamist carries an explosive weapon of some sort. All an atheist has to do is to write a book to be pronounced militant.
It is not just atheists who are under attack by christians (and not just christians and not just in the US so forgive my Amerocentricity; but as a sizable majority in the US in 2005 they represent the noisiest and largest threat).
Christians attack other observances to some degree and other things which they feel (rationally and irrationally) are detrimental to their religion. One of the most important things that has fallen under assault by christians in this century is science and science education. Christians have had much of their one-sided religious bigotry removed from schools. Partially in response they pushed back against science, which many of them perceive to be a threat to their religion and/or the reason they have been pushed out of schools in the first place.
If Not’s law does not exist then the attitude surely does. Just look at the pandering by the candidates in 2008 and 2010. Statistically there should be several (30+) non-believers in congress but I think that there is only one. So, there is definitely an attitude by a huge section of the majority to keep the atheist out of office.
There was a study/poll (Pew i think) which revealed that atheists were the least trusted minority ahead of the traditionally trod upon minorities of the recent memory (Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, Muslims and gays). Atheist is the ‘new gay’. The new minority who will have to vocally and forcefully assert itself to be recognized and gain acceptance in American Culture. In a generation the number of ‘out’ atheists will rise from 2-10% to 10-25% (geographically similar profiles almost undoubtedly revealing that the lowest percentages fall in the ‘red’ states of the old south.) This will make atheists a sizable constituency for elected officials to try to reach and will create such an upheaval in tactics that people like Senator Ensign (the newest disgustingly over-pious, “promisekeeper” christian republican to get found with his peter in someone else’s ink. Of course he wont lose his job probably because his partner wasn’t same sex – but republicans aren’t bigots) will have harder chance to get elected or at minimum will have to pander less to the Falwellian Reich. The lessening of the power of the Falwellian Horde can only benefit America as a whole, because they represent only a small but loud portion of American christians (who for the most part are benign and barely offensive since only @ 10% of christians have actually considered the bible, its content or the problems therein).
“This double standard makes it obvious: a militant Christian or militant Islamist carries an explosive weapon of some sort. All an atheist has to do is to write a book to be pronounced militant.”
Well said Echidna.
VVarlock,
I’m pretty much in agreement with you.
It’s just that when you take into account the Scopes trial of 1927, it would seem that the Creationist/Science thing has a longer history. You are right, of course, the 1987 Supreme Court ruling that Louisiana could not teach Creation Science along side evolution because it was pushing a particular religious belief has been the catalyst for the latest ID/Creationist push.
The US creationist problem is leaking overseas, even to my town, but of course is not the only example of intolerance in the world.
Wow. a lot of good points being made here!
Sorry-
Please read my earlier post to mean “this last century”. The assault on science has been a hallmark of the Reich since Falwell started his s— and before there were plenty of anti-science attacks by the religious.
I know this is not just an American event and I am sorry it is making it abroad. Like its namesake, christian antiscience rabidity will envelope the weak where it can.
VVarlock,
Thankyou. Your point about the lack of representation in Congress is telling. I didn’t realise it was as bad as that.
Why is this ridiculous question even being asked?
Oh DEFINITELY an agent of Santa! Look at the white beard. I bet he even dressed in red clothes.
I find Evolution much more accepting than god creating man from from dust, and to think that god created Evolution a more ridiculous thought than the latter. Why didn’t this god who loved to boast of all his creations regretfully forget to mention Evolution as one of his own? Even people who accept( I prefer the word accept because Evolution is not a belief)still think that we evolved from apes. Evolution does not claim that.While we are in the same animal group, primates, we evolved separately. I, like another commenter, will consider creationism when religious folk can tell me who created god. You’ll get a thousand different answers on that question from a thousand different believers, and not one bit of proof to back up their thousand different hypotheses from those dusty lobes creatures.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Irene says:
“Darwin was a brilliant scientist and Satan didn’t need him as an agent, because religious people already give the Devil so much publicity…”
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@Irene:
The devil doesn’t want publicity. He’s trying to convince the world he doesn’t exist. That’s why he works in secret. He rules the world and not many people know that. Religious people should expose him.
Irene says:
“Darwin was a brilliant scientist and Satan didn’t need him as an agent, because religious people already give the Devil so much publicity…”
===========
@Irene:
The devil doesn’t want publicity. He’s trying to convince the world he doesn’t exist. That’s why he works in secret. He rules the world and not many people know that. Religious people should expose him.
Looking back at this thread sort of brings it all full circle. The Bible is remarkable for the love, strength, wisdom, hate, judgment, peace, predictions, history, or just about anything you want it to give you.
It ties in nicely with Dave Gresham’s piece too.
you definitely know nothing about the Bible doughnut mouth
How would Charles Darwin critique the works of Steven Jay Gould vs. Arthur Jensen? A question for you Mr. Casey: Do you lose your job if you hold Gould to the same standard that you hold Darwin? Or, do you only like Darwin as long as he makes religion look silly?
Darwin would not believe in both evolution and racial equality.
*Two Questions for you…
“Agent of Satan”? That’s rather over the top. Importing Malthusian economic theory to the field of biology was a curious Victorian innovation. Darwinism served British Imperial ideology, not “the Devil.” Case closed.
Darwin was a great taxidermist… Einstein was a great scientist. Darwin wrote and observed, but that doesn’t qualify him as a great scientist.
What, or who, made God?
Happy Birthday, Charles Darwin!