Does ‘borderline-retarded’ woman murderer deserve clemency?
Teresa Lewis
They met, according to a story on Huffington Post, at a Walmart in Danville. And from that chance encounter spun two hired killings in 2002 and three murder convictions in 2003. One of the latter was judged upon Teresa Lewis, now 4o, the wife and stepmother of the victims.
She’s the one who got death row (plus 53 years), after pleading guilty. The two men she hired got life.
Lewis is the only woman on Virginia’s death row; her execution is slated for Sept. 23. That will happen unless the U.S. Supreme Court issues a stay or Gov. Bob McDonnell grants clemency.
If the execution goes through Lewis will be the first Virginia woman executed by the state since 1912.
From Huffington Post:
Lewis, 40, pleaded guilty to hiring two men, Matthew Shallenberger and Rodney Fuller, to murder her husband and stepson so that she could collect a $350,000 life insurance policy. Both triggermen were handed life sentences, but Judge Charles Strauss gave Lewis the death penalty, reasoning that she was “clearly the head of this serpent.”
The article goes on to note that Lewis has twice tested in the 70-73 range for IQ; anything below 70 is considered mentally retarded.
And an account in the Richmond Times-Dispatch suggests that she lacks the ability to plan anything much farther ahead than tying her shoes.
Casting even further doubt on Lewis’ mental function is a 2003 letter Shallenberger (who committed suicide in 2006) wrote to a fellow inmate. In it he said he’d manipulated Lewis into arranging the murder so that he could collect her husband’s life insurance money and use it to finance his drug-dealing business, Huffington Post notes.
“I met Teresa at the Walmart in Danville, VA. From the moment I met her I knew she was someone who could be easily manipulated,” Shallenberger wrote. “Killing Julian and Charles Lewis was entirely my idea. I needed money, and Teresa was an easy target.”
Still, the Virginia Supreme Court, U.S. District Court and the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals have upheld the sentence.
Mercy, or the gurney?
What do you think, folks?
September 8, 2010 - 8:00 AM
Life in prison, if that’s “mercy”.
The gurney!
I’m on the fence, but leaning towards gurney. At the very least, she actively allowed these two people to be killed if you think the Schallenberger statement holds any water. Is that worthy of the death penalty, I don’t know, but she pleaded guilty to murder so case closed I think.
Life in prison simply because the death sentence is not applied evenly or fairly. Dozens of innocent people — even ones who “confessed” — have been released from death rows in recent years. Pretty much every other “civilized” industrial nation in the world has already recognized the idiocy of the death penalty.
Oh hell, let’s just stone her.
Why not stone her? Oh well, that would would never be accepted in our society and surely is a method of execution ANY civilized nation would reject. Please forgive me for such a thought….gurney, please.
I suspect that many will disagree with my position on this. My position has nothing to do with this lady’s mental capacity or the note sent by her co-conspiritor. My position has to do with my religious beliefs. My beliefs suggest that each of us will stand before our creator and be judged when the time comes. That judgment will ultimately assign us to eternity with God or Hell. Ms. Lewis’ judgment is coming. That will be sufficient for me.
“…is a method of execution ANY civilized nation would reject”
There are no “methods” of state sponsored murder any civilized nation would accept. Check the list of countries still allowing capital punishment…we’re in great company!
#6 The end result of stoning is no different than the end result of the gurney, now is it, Al?
gdad,
I’m pretty sure Al is just being sarcastic. In any event I hope that he is…
#10 Steve C, I realize that Al doesn’t really want stoning in the U.S., but he does appear to be attempting to make some sort of muddled point about the barbarity of stonings in Muslim countries and so, of course, all Muslims are uncivilized. Or maybe just all Muslims in countries that allow stonings (six countries sort of officially allow it, including our buddies, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. What a minute, we’re “saving” a country that allows stonings?) are uncivilized? Anyway, my point is that the end result of the gurney is no less barbarous than the end result of a stoning.
Pretty sure he’s serious.
The other two should have recieved the death penalty as well.
BTW, her 70-73 IQ would have qualified her to write for the Roanoke Times. What a pity.
I am against the death penalty regardless of competency, etc. My theology tells me that I am created in the Divine image (cf. Genesis 1). Therefore, regardless how distorted that image becomes (in the church, we call that sin), one still has to honor the image.
One thing I’ve noticed is that many folks who carry strong pro-life opinions also are strong proponents of the death penalty. This seems quite incongruent to me. How can one say one is for the “sanctity of life” at the beginning of life and not hold to that same ethical stance over the course of life? If we believe in protecting the un-born, how can we not work to protect “the born?”
I also think that the whole idea of legally killing someone for illegally killing someone defies logic. I’m not convinced that the death penalty is in any way a deterrent. It seems to me that those who are willing to go so far as to take another human life seldom stop to consider the consequences of their actions.
Life in prison. That isn’t really mercy. Some things are worse than death.
This is not an easy question but if the people who DID the killing did not get death, then the mentally challenged fool who “paid” for it should not either. The prisons are full of people just like her. Sadly this is our country’s answer to mental illness and mentally challenged people in too many cases.
Life in prison. It is unjust to sentence the trigger men to life in prison, but give Ms. Lewis the death penalty. They are all 3 equally responsible and should be punished the same.
Have you SEEN some of the insane mobs being interviewed at these “rallies”? Don’t kid yourself, people could be cheering for a stoning in a matter of moments right here in this nation.
I’m with Sandi on this one. A wide swath of the American public supports retribution killings, whether it’s done by the state or others, and whether its buy stoning or lethal injection (which certain people believe is too kind).
Some of those folks would like to return to hangings in the public square.
This explains the popularity of Charles Bronson’s “Death Wish” films.
Morris
Leaving the theology issue aside, I still believe the rest of your post
is entirely correct. The death penalty is revenge, pure and simple. These
arte the kinds of criminals that prisons are made for. Instead of locking
up millions of drug users, our prisons should be reserved for people
like these. Lock em up. Throw away the key. But don’t stoop to becoming
the same thing that they are.
The death penalty is a rock solid deterrent. How many executed,have murdered again.
I’m with Morris…I don’t feel “competency” is an issue.
People who pat themselves on the back for advocating “humane” methods of state sponsored murder make me ill. Al is implying that Iran with its stonings is somehow less humane and evolved than we are with our injections. They are equally barbaric.
So, I guess some of you libs would have the US model ourselves after what other countries do. They have no death penality, we should have none….great idea. HERE is another great idea from one of those model countries that we need to follow…
Be sure to read the translation of what the sign says, all the way to the end.
http://botetourtroanoke.ntelos.net/finance/index.php?source=&display=photos&photo=BTRE6870Q2700
How many murderers have escaped from prison? Anyone care to take a guess?
#24 Nice strawman, Al. Has nothing to do with this.
Tell that to the women who face stonings, can you imagine the pain that must incur? In our country, allot of states give you the choice of how you die, not all, but some. It is true that in the end you die, but wouldn’t you rather die by lethal injection that be stoned to death or electrocution?
We have rocks on our property, and I mean rocks – heavy ones that are small enough to pick up, yet the makeup of those rocks are hard and sharp. I dropped one on my foot one time moving some – they hurt! And that was only from 3 feet in the air down to my toes.
Men hurling them at your face and head to inflict enough pain to hurt you but not kill you (initially) is barbaric. They want their village, young people and everyone to see a slow, painful death…I am sorry – but IT IS barbaric.
#25 And your solution would be what, Henry? Execute all convicted murderers, even the innocent ones, right there after the jury verdict? After all, that would be the only way to guarantee no escapes. If that’s not your solution, please provide one.
1) State-sponsored execution cheapens life. When government sends a message to the populace that there are good and just reasons to kill, that gets filtered down into many not-so-stable, not-so-good and not-so-just minds. And those folks will make up their own rules as to what deserves the death penalty.
2) It also is somewhat arbitrary. What crime, if any, should “deserve” the death penalty? It’s pretty much limited to first-degree murder in the United States. But there used to be some states in which rape was punishable by the DP, and if you were a black rapist and the victim was a white woman you were much more likely to get it. In Malaysia, drug trafficking can get you death. In Iran you can get it for adultery. Those are good and just reasons to put someone to death, according to governments in those countries.
3) There are too many mistake in the administration of justice for us to hope to always avoid putting an innocent-but-convicted murderer to death. I’d rather lock up 1,000 murderers for the rest of their lives than take the chance that one innocent-but-convicted murderer gets the death penalty.
#24 Tell you what, Al, name another country in the world that you admire and that also has the death penalty that it uses regularly.
#27 Yes, it’s barbaric. So is the arbitrary death penalty we have in the U.S.
How many innocent people have died at the hands of the state? Anyone want to take a guess?
Charlie, I don’t disagree that stoning is barbaric. I think all execution is barbaric.
“In our country, allot of states give you the choice of how you die, not all, but some.”
Honest to God, you think that somehow makes us superior? What, precisely, would Jesus say about offering someone the choice between hanging and lethal injection?
“So, I guess some of you libs would have the US model ourselves after what other countries do.”
Actually, I’d prefer that the US would be a leader, not follower country. It’s embarrassing that we’re so far behind on this issue.
IMHO, barbaric is a nation that allows an individual to callously take the life of another, without paying the ultimate price. For a killer not to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, cheapens the life of the innocent victim.
There have probably been way too many innocent people executed for crimes, just here in America.
This is a very good discussion about how very complex this issue is, some would say get rid of the death penalty. Then who pays for the person, that is in jail for the rest of their life? Complex issues….
Do we house, feed, provide intense security for these hard cases, the extreme and very dangerous people that kill, mutilate and eat people? Where right now, many of them are in Marion VA in the Jail on the hill. At the same time, Marion VA is one of the poorest counties in Va, the school drop out rate is very high, they haven’t passed their SOL standards in years, the schools look like something out of a 1950′s movie – very inadequate, electrical sockets shocking teachers when they plug something into them, and snow comes into the windows at the corners… A huge population in Marion is very poor, and yet people in the prison get 3 squares a day, many of whom are murderers.
These issues have no easy answers, but I do not believe serial killers should get a pass at the death penalty because “the death penalty in America happens to be arbitrary”….
Jesus addressed many issues, He spoke over and over about our first death and the decisions we make that effect eternity. That is what He died for, us to live eternally if we repent and accept Him.
Ron #7
In summary – ‘God will punish her.’ So you believe in hell, a hell where people who do bad things go as punishment for those bad things?
Let’s go over that if you will. I would love to pick your brain about this.
What is your idea of hell like? Feed me some details
Ban the death penalty, redistribute the wealth, grant illegals citizenship, it’s all related, Ben (aka gdad, aka the greatest station wagon driver of them all.) It’s all the misguided agenda of the liberals and it’s about time it ends! Cannot wait until NOVEMBER.
Charlie27- But if the Death Penalty is about deterrence, shouldn’t it be horrific and very public? If the death penalty works as a determent to further crime, shouldn’t it be an actual deterrent?
I think stoning is a perfect way for the state to kill someone as retribution for crimes against the state. Have you noticed that it is always Tennessee vs. Jones or Texas v. Simpson or Louisiana vs. Smith. Always these crimes under our system are the defendant against the state. You are being punished not for your actions against the defendant but because your actions broke a law and thus offended the state.
Clarifications – I do not think the death penalty is a good thing. I think it does little to deter criminals. I think executing an innocent person is a tragedy. I think our system is imperfect, but overall I think it is about as good as can be devised by the minds of men. I would not trade our system here for the English one which has no death Penalty but also no presumption of innocence. Each system has flaws and ours is a system in flux, one that is being modified to fit our societal morals. It takes time for any system (governmental, religious, etc) to catch up with the improving morals of a society. We will get there.
16,000 murders a year and we can’t find anyone dangerous enough to execute for that crime. Amazing.
If we put a person in prison for life for murder and they kill a guard or another prisoner or they escape and kill someone, what do we do? Give them another life sentence?
I am not an advocate for the death penalty even though there are crimes and criminals who richly deserve death, even by stoning. It is too arbitrary and unfair in this nation, and too many people have been exonerated for it to be anywhere near routinely done. Personally if I had to choose between life in prison and dying, I would choose death, but that is just me. There are many barbaric ways to die, be tortured and to suffer, playing ‘my killing is more humane’ is not a real enchanting game. Lethal injection is as humane as we know how to make it, but since we cannot be inside anyone’s body or brain we cannot guarantee there is no “suffering”. Although it generally pales in comparison to their victim’s.
Dahmer, Gacy, BTK, Bundy, and any child rapist could easily be stoned without me batting an eye frankly. But the brutal Sharia Law that allows stoning for adultery or being homosexual is barbaric, cruel and wrong. Revenge is a very human emotion but we should not be proud to administer it and call it justice.
VVArlock,
I anticipated that you might weigh in on my view. I would summarize my statement as saying that Ms. Lewis, just like me, will be judged by God when her time comes. In other words God will decide what her punishment, if any, will be.
While I suspect that during my earthly lifetime I been close to hell a couple of times, I’m not sure I can describe it to you. However, let me tread out on that thin ice by suggesting it is a place in which the souls of the unsaved will suffer the consequences of sin. Some believe it is eternal. I believe that those who go there (or who have been there during their earthly journey) are without hope. It’s my hope that you’ve never experienced being without hope. Some modern theologians have describe hell as the logical consequence of the soul using its free will to reject the will of God.(Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 2005)
Basically VVArlock I believe the God’s judgment on such matters is much better than mine. I suspect from your earlier comments on matters like these you have a different view. You are welcome to that view.
Easy call – gurney.
Actually, the gurney is too humane. I think the killer(s) should get the same their victims got. If it was a beating, beat ‘em. Stabbing? Stab ‘em. Lethal injection is far too humane for the dregs of society.
She isn’t below the mentally retarded threshold and she did it for the money. Gotta have some black and white, some lines in the sand, regardless of what they are or who determines them, you fall on one side or the other. Put her out of our collective miseries.
For cryin’ out loud, her husband, and his kids? There aren’t any mistakes here – the people she contracted with were witnesses against her.
Al,
Banning the death penalty is not a “liberal” position. It transcends the traditional liberal/conservative plane. Its essence is that a government of men should not have the right, based on arbitrary rules adopted by those men, to deprive a man of the right to his life.
Henry,
If we put a person on death row for murder and they kill a guard or escape and kill someone, what do we do? Give them another death penalty?
Al,
Are you saying gdad is Ben Beagle? And where in the progressive/Democrat platform does it say “Ban the death penalty, redistribute the wealth, grant illegals citizenship,”? Seriously, were do you get these silly ideas, Glen Beck? Are you capable of independent thought or do you just believe whatever your tv tells you to?
“it’s all related, Ben… It’s all the misguided agenda of the liberals and it’s about time it ends!”. Lord, you are a Kool-aid drinker, aren’t you?
#36, Al,
Oh, wait; I think I just figured it out. Al, have you ever posted on this board as Jack McGuire or Tony?
Silly me.
How many murderers have escaped from prison? Anyone care to take a guess?
Comment by Henry — September 8, 2010 @ 1:32 pm
What does that have to do with anything?
#36 Now that’s one of the funniest guesses about who I am. I know Ben (used to be his coworker AND his neighbor) and he’s old enough to be my father. Actually, he’s older than my father.
#36 LOOK! LOOK! Al called Suzie a liberal (Suzie opposes the death penalty).
ROFL, Gdad is Ben Beagle! ROFLOOO… Sorry Gdad, but THAT is funny!
Al, I hope you are not buying stock in November changing or solving one damned thing. How old are you? You should still know better. I guess pretending the Republicans did not put us in this situation has set like cement.
I wonder if Al would lay down some money on a friendly bet that gdad is Ben Beagle? We could send the winnings to a charity.
What do you say Al?
Ron 40
Very interesting, that you seem to believe in a just god (or at least a god who metes out justice by some unknowable scale) but have obviously not considered the injustice that is hell (your god’s system).
Your words: ‘god will decide her punishment’. Hell is a place where ‘the souls of the unsaved will suffer the consequences of sin’ ‘Those who go there are without hope’.
Question – I am not unsaved, merely apostate. Is my previous ‘saving’ rescinded by my current rejection of said ‘salvation’ and the system that is around it? And if so, is such a conditional, revocable eternal salvation described in detail anywhere so I can read the small print? And before you say the bible (the great big book of multiple choice which has to be specifically interpreted over and over again to wring out the specific meaning a particular cult wants from it), know I have read, studied and dissected said alleged source both as a believer and as an apostate and at all levels in between (since my process has taken 20 years as an adult and 14-17 years of indoctrination before I came to really examine my beliefs). I do not find details such as we are discussing here in the bible.
On to hell.
A couple of preliminary concepts that christians believe: god is all knowing. god is all good. god is the ultimate arbiter of what is right.
The christian hell, which you seem to espouse, is a place created by god, where some mystical, magical undemonstrated portion of a human being can go after death. In said place this magic remnant will be tortured for all eternity because of crimes committed in a finite life span. Also this remnant can go here for rejecting foolish bronze-age tales, living a human life and in some traditions for even just not knowing about the bad afternoon jesus had to ‘pay’ for these ‘crimes’.
I know several of you have read my long rant about hell elsewhere, but it is very important to me to get this point across. Either your god is an evil, unjust prick or hell does not exist as described. There is NO other alternative. No all-knowing all-good being would send his creation to infinite punishment for finite crimes, no matter how heinous. There can be no justification. I can not think of anything my children could do to earn even the bad afternoon jesus had as punishment from me as a punishment, let alone ETERNAL torment that your god allegedly metes out in his infinite justice. So, is my love for my children better than that alleged love your allegedly loving and good god has for you?
Not even the petty jealous pride of a bronze age semitic tribal deity can explain this sufficiently to make it less about the deity and more about the humans who thought him up.
Hell is an evil concept and if your god created it, he is evil, for an all knowing all powerful creator has not the excuse that he didn’t know. If it was created by men, they (possibly unwittingly in their savagery and ignorance) might have an excuse for their evil, but looking down upon it now I, with my superior modern morality, feel comfortable judging them lesser and savages.
And let me put the reality of the trivial nature of the payment out here for all to see. Jesus was allegedly tortured for about 10 hours, ending in his ‘demise’ at the end of a sword/spear on a cross upon which he had been for an afternoon. In an infinite lifespan, Jesus spent a day being abused in the same manner that at least 2 other men were also abused that very same day by the Romans in that very town. This is tantamount to me, in my mortal lifetime stubbing my toe or pulling a hangnail. His alleged death came with the precognition that he would rise again in a couple of days and go back to eternal bliss in heaven. And this alleged sacrifice is sufficient to ‘pay’ himself for the crimes of all humanity (which are only crimes because he said they were and are almost all not actual crimes in modern societies), forever (if they meet subsection 2.1 paragraph b by telepathically telling him that they love him bestest).
Your god is a trivial tribal desert deity thought up by cruel nomads with an infantile understanding of morality and the sooner we can distance ourselves from this evil, the better.
gdad, what is it with you and the wingnuts? Wasn’t someone calling you “Eric” earlier as well? Do you always attract the crazies?
In any event, it’s obviously not always so great to be so popular, is it Ben?
If you ever listened to a gDad post, Al, you would know he is way too young to be Ben Beagle.
Why is it that conservative, “sanctity of life” believers have such a problem with aborting a non-viable, non-living, blastocyst, yet any one of them would be the first one to raise their hand to take a turn at “pulling the switch.”
Such logic…
VVArlock,
My initial point in this discussion about Ms. Lewis’ fate was that it is not, in my view, my judgment to make as to whether she should die for her crime.
I think we humans were endowed with what is referred to by some as free choice. We choose to live whatever life we choose to live.
A painting that is particularly meaningful to me is one that shows Jesus standing and knocking on a door. If you look closely at the painting you can see that there is no latch on the door. That symbolizes to me that I have to open the door to let Jesus in to my home or my heart. In short, I must choose to let him in. I can choose not to do so. It’s up to me. My God doesn’t choose to send me to hell, I do. My God would prefer my opening the door so that he can come into my life. He wants me to be with him.
It should be obvious to you by now that my God is not, in my view, some trivial desert deity. I’m aware that I am not going to change your view on that. You should be aware that you are not going to change my view either.
Fortunately we live in a country that permits us to co-exist despite differing viewpoints.
Ah Lynda K! They talk a big game. But if you actually asked them to be the switch puller I’d bet some attitudes would suddenly change!
#52 The “Eric” thing was MMM making a juvenile and unoriginal “gay” joke from the Eric is Gay graffiti on the old Taco Bell. I don’t know what brought on Ben Beagle, although MMM and a couple of other wingnuts have envisioned me as being much older than I am, perhaps thinking that gdad stands for “granddad” (it doesn’t).
Doesn’t bother me. Ben’s good guy.
Ron 55
Ahh yes, ‘the can’t we all just get along’ christian arche-type. The kind who spews ‘you can have your beliefs and I can have mine’ while ignoring actually looking at their beliefs with a critical eye.
I know all about ‘free will’ but in the face of an all-knowing omnipotent creator god isn’t ‘free will’ a fool’s understanding?
And now you try to mealy mouth your way around your god ‘sending’ people to hell (typical btw). To clarify: Your god made the place, Your god makes the rules on who goes there and why and for how long, your god also (knowing how things will turn out since he is omnipotent and omniscient) creates beings in the way he chooses to create them, despite their destination. It certainly would be within the purview of this being to create less fallible beings so that fewer go to the punishment he created. It would also certainly be within this being’s abilities to change the rules, so that there aren’t people being punished for petty, trivial reasons which mattered to ignorant, patriarchal, desert goatherds but should really be of no mind to an omni-everything GOD.
I know you don’t think your god was created in the minds of these savages, but all the evidence goes to show he was. And again, I really don’t care to try to change your view, merely challenge it to cause you to think and the reader to think.
I may never reach you or the others I directly confront with the light of compassion and reason, but a single fence-sitter reading this may actually pick up a book, confront their doubt and reflect on the evil that is the christian system. I don’t even care what book, heck the book that convinced me that christianity was BS was the bible.
So, if I quote something evil in said book and they think: ‘no way, there isn’t an instance where god succumbs to imprecatory prayer and sends a bear to kill/maul 42 kids for calling Elijah bald – not in my bible’ … or ‘there is no way that the one man who was worth saving in Sodom offered his virgin daughters up to a crowd for rape to keep the crowd from molesting 2 strangers and this man was subsequently saved by god for being righteous only to go and have sex with these same daughters almost immediately after leaving Sodom’. Or if I repeatedly show how menial the sacrifice was or how evil the system is… perhaps I can reach a few and cause them to cast off the Dark Ages- tempered evil that is christianity.
Hard to maintain the ‘nones’ as the fastest growing religious minority of this decade unless we make people think.
Lynda K,
The left is hypocritical too. The product of a failed abortion is hidden in a back room to die an agonizing death and not a cry of compassion. Yet a convicted murderer doesn’t deserve a lethal injection, go figure.
Have a good day VVArlock.
LyndaK, the right is only “pro life” until someone is actually born. When it comes to fully grown adult humans….the more they can wipe out, the better.
“16,000 murders a year and we can’t find anyone dangerous enough to execute for that crime. Amazing. ”
Why should we execute anyone at all? Only uncivilized nations engage in capital punishment. We are among them. There’s no dressing state-sponsored murder up as anything but that – murder.
I’d like to see Fred Phelps take one between the eyes. Same with that guy in Florida all set to burn Korans. There are plenty of ways to be “dangerous”, and this poor retarded lady just represents one. Just because you personally want someone dead doesn’t mean the state has to fulfill your fantasy.
#59 HWM writes: “Yet a convicted murderer doesn’t deserve a lethal injection…”
Why would anyone “deserve” a lethal injection? Why should it be any other human’s responsibility or authority to levy a punishment of death on another? What makes that pre-meditated murder any less a “sin” than the one that was committed in the first place?
Do those in favor of the death penalty think that if killing someone is done in a way that is seemingly quiet and peaceful (lethal injection) that, somehow, it’s nothing like the stonings they hold up as inhumane?
Cold blooded murder is still murder no matter how much you pretty it up or argue that it’s justified.
Ron #60
No worries, I will find another person, in another thread, either here or elsewhere.
It has been fun for me getting on my soapbox, I hope it was at least thought provoking for you.
Good day to you as well.
I believe it was Ghandi who said: “An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.”
For those interested in signing a petition requesting Gov. McDonnell to commute her sentence to life in prison, here’s the site:
http://www.saveteresalewis.org/
http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/wb/259812
25 years for murder during a robbery
@61 “Why should we execute anyone at all? ”
“I’d like to see Fred Phelps take one between the eyes.”
Kristen, you don’t even agree with yourself most of the time,
Morris Fleischer… I like that quote but my favorite quote of Ghandi’s is: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
“Cold blooded murder is still murder no matter how much you pretty it up or argue that it’s justified”
An the phrase “non-living, blastocyst” pretties it up an abortion.
Henry, the difference between myself and death penalty advocates is that I don’t expect the state to grant my wishes, or codify them into law.
The right, on the other hand, wants and expects the state to provide legitimacy and legal cover for all of their pet peeves, bigotries and hates.
I didn’t point out that I often feel homicidal towards those who drive slowly in the left hand lane. Get in the express lane with too many items. I have a list, and I’m smart enough to have zero expectation of seeing it acted on by the authorities.
Lynda K…I’ve gotten much mileage out of that quote as well. I really appreciate Gandhi’s Seven Social Sins.
1) Politics without Principle
2) Wealth Without Work
3) Pleasure Without Conscience
4) Knowledge without Character
5) Commerce without Morality
6) Science without Humanity
7) Worship without Sacrifice
Arun Gandhi has added an excellent 8th Sin to this list:
8) Rights without Responsibility
HWM,
That’s why I think it’s a more consistent ethical view to be pro-life and anti-death penalty. I think there are many folks in this camp, myself included.
#68 HWM writes, “An the phrase “non-living, blastocyst” pretties it up an abortion.”
No… that does not pretty it up, nor was that my intention. My intention was to avoid the words “embryo” or “fetus” which many people associate with a living, viable, human. Most abortions are performed during the first 8 weeks of pregnancy and most of those within the first 5 weeks.
With the current availability of the “morning after” pill and the Mifeprex pill, that can be taken as soon as the woman knows she is pregnant, more women are opting not to wait until the point where the fetus has developed those attributes which we associate with a viable human… such as eyes, arms, heart beat.
No one is saying abortion is this wonderful thing that everyone should do, but it is an option available to women who need that choice. It is not a decision that anyone else should be making for her. If it is truly a “sin” then she and she alone will be judged on her actions.
Thank you for these, Morris. I will post them on my bulletin board.
You are most welcome, Lynda. I’m glad you found them to be of value.
I don’t mind anti Abortion people who are pro death penalty as long as they correctly identify themselves as “Anti Choice” instead of “pro-life”.
Spare her a miserable life in prison, spare the state of VA the expense of supporting her (food, medical, etc.) for the next 20-50 years. She is of no value to society whatsoever. Let her God have her, the sooner, the better.
@76
IIRC, it costs more to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for life.
I’m impressed by all the people on this thread more than willing to play God about this woman.
Frankly, “level”, until provided with evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to believe that you’re of any value to society, whatsoever.
Pretty sure God doesn’t need the assistance of state sponsored murderers to bring his people home.
It sounds like she was playing God. She’s alive. The victim is dead.
I’ve skimmed the posts but not read them all so forgive me if this was previously covered. It doesn’t seem as if discussion of her gender comes up. I don’t believe a woman should be spared the death penalty simply because she’s a woman but, as stated in the article, is she being more harshly judeged because she is a woman. Would a man in this same situation have received the death penalty? The two men who did the actual killing received life. The one who claimed that he was in fact the mastermind of the crime and committed the murder, Shallenberger, was given life. Why is she not given the same sentence? As was quoted in the article,
“When women such as Lewis are on death row, it’s often because they have violated societal “gender expectations,” Atwell said.” Does this have more to do with the fact that she was a “bad wife” and our male-dominated society wants women to know their place?
People are so bi-polar over this issue. People who carry out executions are murderers but people who carry out abortions are merely facilitators of choice I suppose, or are they just privately (for now) sponsored murderers?
According to the definition of murder, no matter which side of this debate you fall on, calling either act (execution or abortion) murder is inaccurate and more often than not, just inflammatory name-calling. At present, both acts are legal. Therefore, neither meets the definition of murder. That invokes logical reasoning that is not popular with some, but the hard truth is, not all killing is murder.
Oh, and Kristen, would a publicly funded abortion fall into the category of what you call state-funded murder? At least a convicted killer has received the due process required by the 5th Amendment. Can you tell me what due process the “non-living blastocyst” receives?
Henry’s comment is to the point!
Let’s us also play God and kill her. . .
Gee . . . this God-playing is fun! Who else should we kill?
Dawn very pointedly suggests that the abortion of a fetus = murder.
I agree with her, when the fetus is at the point at which it could survive outside the womb without heroic medical measures.
But I don’t believe that a miscarriage, early in a pregnancy, is the same as the death of a person. And I don’t agree that an abortion, at the same stage, is murder.
Dawn, small clumps of undifferentiated cells don’t merit due process. They also don’t need passports while traveling, they don’t have SS numbers…a variety of other differences between an embryo and a fully formed adult human.
You’re not wrong that calling execution “state sponsored murder” is inflammatory.
It doesn’t read like this woman has enough brain matter to “play God”.
I agree that at some point any abortion is murder. There is no reason on this earth for that decision to ever be made lightly. Once a child could survive independently it is a living human being and abortion should be heavily restricted and only for a very narrow parameter and “choice” is not one of them IMO. I do not view government execution as murder, but I also will not call it justice. Too many things happen that have no relationship with justice. Like many other issues, unless we have the courage to be honest, we will never be able to make progress.
If she has ‘dependent personality disorder’, a low IQ and little in the way of a moral code (look at the way she treated her daughter – which supports the view she was the driving force – and stepson – she’s cold as well as stupid)and this led her to be able to kill, then all in all I would say she’s VERY likely to do it again if she meets the ‘right person’ again. It’s a very poor defense they are putting up now.
I would prefer whole-life imprisonment for her but then I am not American so I won’t be paying the excessive bill for that term.
VVArlock – WTH are you talking about, the UK has no presumption of innocence? Of course it does. The person has to be proved guilty in court, and it’s an adversarial system (no investigating magistrate as in Italy, France, etc) and you can even sue the police for false arrest! Talk sense and do some research.
An eye for an eye. She was smart enough to know both men had to die for her to recieve $250,000.Manipulate? I guess these 2 men knew of the insurance policy and msater mind the whole thing. Not possible! Remember, she took her teenage daughter to have sex with one of these men. I guess if my life depended on it I could get a 73 on an IQ test too. Gurney!
Why don’t we ask Julian and CJ what they want? Oh Darn we can’t! Because the bitch murdered them! Next best thing actually the appropriate thing would be to send her where they are to ask them. Yeah that’s it!