The House of Delegates’ sneak attack on abortion clinics UPDATED
Del. Kathy Byron, R-Lynchburg | Kathybyron.net
Update: The Senate accepted the amended House bill. The vote was 20-20, with Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling casting the tie-breaking vote. Gov. Bob McDonnell says he favors it.
Senate Bill 924 was a noncontroversial bill, proposed by a Republican state senator, to require the state Board of Health to devise and issue regulations setting minimum standards for infection prevention, disaster preparedness, and security at hospitals, nursing homes, and certified nursing facilities.
The sponsor was Sen. Ryan T. McDougle, R-Mechanicsville. It had no fiscal impact, and no opposition. It passed a Senate committee unanimously, the Senate unanimously, a House committee unanimously, and then it got to the House floor.
Now it’s become 2011′s sneak attack on legal abortion in Virginia.
On the House floor Monday, Del. Kathy Byron, R-Lynchburg, proposed a 26-word amendment that changes the purpose of the bill and its intent. Here is the amendment:
For purposes of this paragraph, facilities in which 5 or more first trimester abortions per month are performed shall be classified as a category of “hospital.”
Did you get that? With that change, every abortion clinic in the state would be reclassified as a “hospital.” And because of that, most of them would have to close. The amended bill passed the House Monday, 67-32. Here’s the vote tally. (More after the jump)
Why? RHRealityCheck.org explains:
. . .any facility that performs 5 or more first trimester abortion per month would effectively have to adhere to architectural and other standards required for hospitals. This means, for example, standards for the size of parking lots adequate for the number of hospital beds (that don’t exist), and architectural changes such as widening hallways to allow two gurneys to pass at the same time.
In other words, things that are not needed in a clinic setting where procedures are among the safest of any outpatient procedure performed anywhere.
In other words, pure politics.
Clinics that owned their own buildings would have to make expensive and unnecessary alterations to stay open. Those that rent might have to close for good. An official with the Virginia chapter of the National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL) estimates that 17 of 21 abortions clinics in the commonwealth would have to close their doors for good. But not necessarily the Planned Parenthood Clinic in Roanoke.
This is reminiscent of a legal opinion by Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli last year that seeks to accomplish much the same thing, without legislation.
The bill won’t become law unless the Senate agrees; in the past it’s defeated similar attempts to regulate abortion clinics the same way as hospitals. But you never know exactly how things are going to go down in the General Assembly’s three-day rush to adjournment.
I have many mixed feeling about abortion. But if this was something Byron wanted to do, she didn’t have to try to sneak this through in the waning days of the legislative session.
She could have sponsored a bill exactly for this purpose, straight up. That would have been the honest way. She didn’t bother.
Instead she’s spent her time trying to enact a law removing a requirement that insurance companies cover optional HPV vaccines for young girls. (That anti-cancer prevention bill appears dead, thank goodness).
(h/t VVarlock)
February 24, 2011 - 3:34 PM
As much as I love my state, there are many times I wish smarter people were in charge of her care.
enter protesters stage left.
Yes, we mustn’t infringe on the Babykillers’ Bill of Rights. I say you put these death mills out of business any way you can.
People like Warlock stomp and scream when you leave up the Ten Commandments on how to live better lives, then throw a fit when you make it harder for the baby butchers to conduct business.
Something is majorly screwed up with these people.
Planned Parenthood is such an outstanding organization:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9Zj9yx2j0Y
(/sarcasm)
The day common sense went “right” out the window!
Now Virginia has joined the tidal wave of woman hatred that is sweeping the US. Those “small government, jobs jobs jobs” Republicans are doing a great job of oppressive interference in women’s lives. Not such a great job of creating jobs or reducing the size of government, though.
The pro-death-of-women contingent is dancing in the streets at the prospect of destroying access to safe abortions, but unless they amend this bill to include every facility in the state that does any kind of outpatient surgery (dentists, plastic surgery, doctors offices) this bill is pure and obvious discrimination.
She did not do it the honorable way because it would not have passed. Sneak attacks like this and the “forcible rape” crap are so typical of the “Lonesome Rhodes” crowd. But they squall like banshees if Dems try it.
Some people learned nothing from “Prohibition”. Making abortions a “bootleg business” again will only create more monsters like Gosnell, not solve the problem. From simple minded people come simple minded solutions that cause more problems than they solve.
Planned Parenthood and clinics like them serve a much needed purpose and pretending to honor life while spending your days denigrating the people who use their services is worse than hypocritical.
I agree, Sandi. This returns the state to the back-alley abortions by people who don’t even qualify from a sanitation point of view, of out-of-state abortions for the wealthy, Mexican abortions for the not so wealthy, and wire coat-hangers for the rest.
I dislike the concept of abortion being used as birth control, but, IMO, that’s better than the above.
Yes, adoption is a better way, but if it’s so fine a process, one has to wonder why so many children go unadopted currently. I almost never hear of the people fighting abortion putting their names in the bucket to be chosen as adoptive parents.
As for the Prohibition lessons, I recall a few years ago, the RT printed a letter from a woman who thought we should ban all booze. I didn’t get the impression from her letter that she even knew about Prohibition, and the scars we as a country still carry from that badly failed experiment in moral control.
ANYTHING to draw attention AWAY from the budget and the real problems we have!!!!!!
If I live to be 1,000 I will never figure out the world.
When I came home from Vietnam in January 1970, I was hissed at and called ‘babykiller’. I will say that no one spit on me, but others have told me they were spit upon. I served as a medic, never harmed anyone and was wounded myself, yet I was deemed scum.
I’m betting the same people calling me ‘babykiller’ back then are the same people defending abortion today.
PS,
How exactly is this woman hatred? I think perhaps a better term would be abortion hatred. Besides doesn’t it discriminate against the unborn child to have it aborted.
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I totally agree with Charlie. These die-hard anti-abortion people just aren’t thinking straight. Abortion is going to happen whether you agree with it or not. My advice is to keep it legal and as safe as possible instead of resorting back to unclean, unsafe practices. Going back to that will only increase insurance rates, etc. because these women will be having to seek dr./emergency room care for after-care. Think about these other side issues instead of being blinded by what you think is ‘right.’
Instead of creating jobs, the Republicans are attacking women, teachers, and our first responders. Congratulations, voters, you get what you deserve.
The first thing RWers do when they get any little bit of power in their hands is attack children, women, the poor, and the sick.
What great peeps.
“The first thing RWers do when they get any little bit of power in their hands is attack children”
Sounds like to me they are trying to save some.
”
People like Warlock stomp and scream when you leave up the Ten Commandments on how to live better lives, then throw a fit when you make it harder for the baby butchers to conduct business.Comment by Suzie — February 24, 2011 @ 8:59 am
”
In both cases it is a group (right wingers) that is trying to push their beliefs on all citizens.
Don’t like abortions? Don’t have one!
Love the 10 Commandments? Keep a copy of it in your pocket.
No one is trying to stop right wingers from living their life as they choose.
RWers are the same folk who refuse to allow abortions yet also want to cut funding for prenatal care, WIC, the school lunch program, etc. They want those babies born but could give a damn about what happens to them afterward.
“Yes, adoption is a better way, but if it’s so fine a process, one has to wonder why so many children go unadopted currently. I almost never hear of the people fighting abortion putting their names in the bucket to be chosen as adoptive parents.”
Well said, Charlie.
My question is why are the same folks who are anti-abortion also anti-birth control? And generally, the are.
@10 – BINGO! M – Thanks for your sacrifice and service!
Why don’t pro abortion people use birth control?
“How exactly is this woman hatred?” – Peter J
It’s woman hatred because the government would literally rather see women die, from suicide, starvation, botched abortions and complications of pregnancy, than allow women to control their own bodies.
For the ones who are saying that “…abortions are going to happen anyway…” why do you think that argument would make anyone more likely to support your point of view? Why is anyone supposed to feel bad for someone who makes such a poor choice as having some quack perform an unclean and/or unsafe abortion? Nobody is forcing them to make that choice.
“I almost never hear of the people fighting abortion putting their names in the bucket to be chosen as adoptive parents.”
What? Why should those who fight against abortion ever be expected to be responsible for adopting other peoples’ children? That doesn’t make any sense to say.
If Abortion is one of the safest procedures performed in an outpatient clinic setting then why does someone die every time it is performed?
Re: #7, #8, #13, #17, #18, & #19
———
+1
“Get the Government off the backs of the people, except for….”
Talk about hypocrisy.
Insisting that Del. Byron propose a “straight up” bill for this purpose is disingenuous. Such a bill would have never come up for a vote in the Senate. It would have been killed by Education and Health.
You know that, and should have admitted you know that, since you purport to place a value on honesty.
If you were stopping or going to stop abortions that would be one thing. Since you are NOT going to stop abortions all you are going to do is cost us more lives, more money and more unwanted children running the streets. You cannot solve one problem by creating another. When will they ever learn?
M #10, you are not alone in trying to figure out the world but I can tell you that two wrongs do not make a right.
I am sorry if anyone ever called you a “baby killer”. Wars like Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan do kill babies and that is always a problem. After the awful 1968 incident with Lt. Calley (the My Lai Massacre) people who already opposed the war were incensed. Lt. Calley is quoted as saying: “There is not a day that goes by that I do not feel remorse for what happened that day in My Lai. I feel remorse for the Vietnamese who were killed, for their families, for the American soldiers involved and their families. I am very sorry.” War is hell and it makes people the devil, hopefully for only a moment in time. War and abortions are not comparable in my opinion.
I thank you for your service and I hope you can cling to what is good about America and be honest about what is not.
Forcing a woman to carry to term a pregnancy she does not want is not a better solution to the problem. Choice has to be protected or else we are all just following orders and causing more suffering.
Good post Mark. More evidence here. http://liveaction.org/
We see what a noble organization PP is. And to think we have been subsidising them with our tax dollars.
How about this list of school shootings that have occured since the supremes kicked prayer out of school. And only one instance occured BEFORE the supreme court devalued innocent human life with Roe vs Wade. Now whatever you want to blame it on —- there is something wrong, and it seems to be accelerating. I know this list is long — that’s my point. This should break our hearts. “Do not be deceived — God will not be mocked” “sow to the wind and you will reap the whirlwind”. Name Location Date Year Number of Victims
University of Texas Massacre Austin, Texas, United States August 1 1966 16
Olean High School shooting1 Olean, New York, United States December 30 1974 3
California State University, Fullerton massacre Fullerton, California, United States July 12 1976 7
Cleveland Elementary School shooting San Diego, California, United States January 29 1979 2
Deer Creek Middle School shooting Littleton, Colorado, United States April 7 1982 1
Parkway South Middle School shooting Manchester, Missouri, United States January 20 1983 2
Goddard Middle School shooting Goddard, Kansas, United States January 21 1985 1
Portland Junior High School shooting Portland, Connecticut, United States December 10 1985 1
Pine Forest Senior High School Fayetteville, North Carolina, United States May 6 1986 0
Pinellas Park High School shooting Largo, Florida, United States February 11 1988 1
Hubbard Woods School shooting Winnetka, Illinois, United States May 20 1988 1
Atlantic Shores Christian School shooting Chesapeake, Virginia, United States December 16 1988 1
Cleveland School massacre Stockton, California, United States January 17 1989 6
University of Iowa shooting Iowa City, Iowa, United States November 1 1991 6
Lindhurst High School shooting Olivehurst, California, United States May 1 1992 4
Palo Duro High School shooting Amarillo, Texas, United States September 11 1992 0
Berkner High School shooting Richardson, Texas, United States November 6 1992 1
Edward Tilden High School shooting Chicago, Illinois, United States November 20 1992 1
Simon’s Rock College of Bard shooting Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States December 14 1992 2
East Carter High School shooting Grayson, Kentucky, United States January 18 1993 2
Fairfax High School shooting Los Angeles, California, United States January 21 1993 1
Amityville High School shooting Amityville, New York, United States February 1 1993 1
Reseda High School shooting Reseda, California, United States February 22 1993 1
Wauwatosa West High School shooting Wauwatosa, Wisconsin, United States December 1 1993 1
Central Middle School shooting Sheridan, Wyoming, United States September 17 1993 1
Margaret Leary Elementary School shooting Butte, Montana, United States April 12 1994 1
Grimsley High School shooting Greensboro, North Carolina, United States October 12 1994 1
Wickliffe Middle School shooting Wickliffe, Ohio, United States November 7 1994 1
Blackville-Hilda High School shooting Blackville, South Carolina, United States October 12 1995 2
Richland High School shooting Lynnville, Tennessee, United States November 15 1995 2
Frontier Middle School shooting Moses Lake, Washington, United States February 2 1996 3
Hamilton High School shooting Scottdale, Georgia, United States February 2 1996 1
San Diego State University shooting San Diego, California, United States August 15 1996 3
Hetzel Union Building shooting State College, Pennsylvania, United States September 17 1996 1
Bethel Regional High School shooting Bethel, Alaska, United States February 19 1997 2
Pearl High School shooting Pearl, Mississippi, United States October 1 1997 2
Heath High School shooting Paducah, Kentucky, United States December 1 1997 3
Westside Middle School shooting Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States March 24 1998 5
Parker Middle School dance shooting1 Edinboro, Pennsylvania, United States April 24 1998 1
Thurston High School shooting Springfield, Oregon, United States May 20 1998 2
Columbine High School massacre Littleton, Colorado, United States April 20 1999 13
Heritage High School shooting Conyers, Georgia, United States May 20 1999 0
Fort Gibson Middle School shooting Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, United States December 6 1999 0
Buell Elementary School shooting Mount Morris Township, Michigan, United States February 29 2000 1
Lake Worth Middle School shooting Lake Worth, Florida, United States May 26 2000 1
University of Arkansas shooting Fayetteville, Arkansas, United States August 28 2000 2
Santana High School shooting Santee, California, United States March 5 2001 2
Granite Hills High School shooting El Cajon, California, United States March 22 2001 0
Martin Luther King, Jr. High School shooting Manhattan, New York, United States January 15 2002 0
Appalachian School of Law shooting Grundy, Virginia, United States January 16 2002 3
John McDonogh High School shooting New Orleans, Louisiana, United States April 14 2003 1
Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States April 24 2003 2
Case Western Reserve University shooting Cleveland, Ohio, United States May 9 2003 1
Rocori High School shooting Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States September 24 2003 2
Columbia High School shooting East Greenbush, New York, United States February 9 2004 0
Fairleigh Dickinson University shooting Florham Park, New Jersey, United States April 4 2004 2
Randallstown High School shooting Randallstown, Maryland, United States May 7 2004 0
Red Lake Senior High School massacre Red Lake, Minnesota, United States March 21 2005 8
Campbell County High School shooting Jacksboro, Tennessee, United States November 8 2005 1
Pine Middle School shooting Reno, Nevada, United States March 14 2006 0
Essex Elementary School shooting[12] Essex, Vermont, United States August 24 2006 2
Orange High School shooting Hillsborough, North Carolina, United States August 30 2006 1
Platte Canyon High School shooting Bailey, Colorado, United States September 27 2006 2
Weston High School shooting Cazenovia, Wisconsin, United States September 29 2006 1
Amish school shooting Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, United States October 2 2006 6
Henry Foss High School shooting Tacoma, Washington, United States January 3 2007 1
Herbert Henry Dow High School Midland, Michigan, United States March 8 2007 1
University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, North Carolina, United States March 24 2007 0[13]
University of Washington shooting Seattle, Washington, United States April 2 2007 2
Virginia Tech massacre Blacksburg, Virginia, United States April 16 2007 32
Delaware State University shooting Dover, Delaware, United States September 21 2007 1
SuccessTech Academy shooting Cleveland, Ohio, United States October 10 2007 1
Louisiana Technical College shooting Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States February 8 2008 3
Mitchell High School shooting Memphis, Tennessee, United States February 11 2008 0
E.O. Green School shooting Oxnard, California, United States February 12 2008 1
Northern Illinois University massacre DeKalb, Illinois, United States February 14 2008 6
Davidson High School Shooting Mobile, Alabama, United States March 9 2008 1
Central High School shooting Knoxville, Tennessee, United States August 21 2008 1
Henry Ford High School shooting Detroit, Michigan, United States October 16 2008 1
2008 University of Central Arkansas shootings Conway, Arkansas, United States October 27 2008 2
Dillard High School shooting Fort Lauderdale, Florida, United States November 12 2008 1
Henry Ford Community College shooting Dearborn, Michigan, United States April 10 2009 2
Covina High School shooting Covina, California, United States April 30 2009 0[14]
Wesleyan University1 Middletown, Connecticut, United States May 1 2009 1
Canandaigua Academy shooting Canandaigua, New York, United States May 5 2009 1
Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States May 18 2009 1[15]
Larose-Cut Off Middle School shooting Larose, Louisiana, United States May 18 2009 1
Skyline College shooting San Bruno, California, United States September 2 2009 0
Atlanta University Center Atlanta, Georgia, United States September 3 2009 1[16]
Deer Valley High School shooting Antioch, California, United States September 16 2009 0
Northern Virginia Community College Woodbridge, Virginia, United States December 8 2009 0
Discovery Middle School Madison, Alabama, United States February 5 2010 1 [17]
University of Alabama in Huntsville Huntsville, Alabama, United States February 12 2010 3 [18]
Deer Creek Middle School Jefferson County, Colorado, United States February 23 2010 0[19]
Birney Elementary School Tacoma, Washington, United States February 26 2010 1[20]
Ohio State University Columbus, Ohio, United States March 9 2010 2[21]
Belleville Township HS East Belleville, Illinois, United States August 17 2010 1[22]
University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas, United States September 28 2010 1[23]
Alisal High School Salinas, California, United States October 1 2010 1[24][25]
Mid-Atlantic Christian University Elizabeth City, North Carolina, United States October 3 2010 1[26]
Kelly Elementary School Carlsbad, California, United States October 8 2010 0[27][28]
Marinette High School Marinette, Wisconsin, United States November 29 2010 1[29]
Millard South High School Omaha, Nebraska, United States January 5 2011 2[30]
Gardena High School Los Angeles, California, United States January 17 2011
This is the evidence folks. COINCIDENCE ?
This move is politics at its best perhaps this time it will protect those who cannot protect themselves.
17. Don’t like abortions? Don’t have one!
If you consider abortion to be murdering innocent human life, respond appropriately!
abortion is murder any way ya slice it.. period! its wrong and those who do it will be judged accordingly. and i am not neccesarily speaking of the women, but those in the medical practice. Jesus is life and gives us life and He is God, Judge and Creator and Soon and Coming King!! get ‘right’ or get ‘left’. people.. wake up and smell the Truth!! this is just a sign of the times and days we live in though. if kids were raised right, by both their parents, and had a loving and God-fearing father/dad, in thier lives, then they would not neccesarily be out getting pregnant and getting em pregnant.. God help us all, here in Virginia, and in these ‘United States of America’.. :-0
!” its wrong and those who do it will be judged accordingly. and i am not neccesarily speaking of the women, but those in the medical practice. Jesus is life and gives us life and He is God, Judge and Creator and Soon and Coming King!!”
Gary, you’d better explain this to certain legislators who are usurping God’s right to judge and wanting to do it for themselves.
Tony are you really that naive? Can you possibly believe that this will save even on “life”? Dooming women to lesser choices will not stop abortion anymore than dooming people to rot gut stopped Liquor sales. You will push it underground into more unsafe conditions and have maybe even more abortions because the clinics will close and the other services they provide will be gone too, but you will never stop abortions.
Would to God it were possible that every child was wanted and every pregnancy planned, but it is not.
Gary, your zealous hysterics will not change anything either, this is a world that crucified Jesus, not listened to him. Then they revised the story to be one of sacrifice instead of murder. I believe there will be a judgment and that none will escape it, but it is not for man to say and man wrote that book you are thumping. Not God. Ever wonder why you get a chill when you see even a reenactment of the murder of Christ? Woe unto us all, especially the self-righteous.
Welcome to second class citzenship for Virginia’s women.
“Clinics that owned their own buildings would have to make expensive and unnecessary alterations to stay open. Those that rent might have to close for good.” So did many businesses after the ADA was passed.
At least this bill was voted on and passed.
And how is being against abortion “women hating”? Aren’t some of those murdered babies future women? Maybe we have killed the first woman president of the US without even knowing it.
45 – 53 million of the most helpless, innocent lives taken since roe v wade devalued human life. No wonder our kids are killing each other in the schools. We should all be ashamed. If this were baby turtles being dug up out of the sand and killed, ther would be a huge outcry.
If a pregnant woman is crashed into by an at fault driver and the baby dies, it’s a manslaughter charge at least. But that same woman can drive to PP and have the baby killed by a “medical professional” for convenience sake and it’s perfectly legal.
Someone explain to me the difference please. God have mercy.
“What? Why should those who fight against abortion ever be expected to be responsible for adopting other peoples’ children? That doesn’t make any sense to say.:
They shouldn’t. And likewise they should have no say in any OTHER aspect of their lives. THAT’S what makes no sense.
Weird post, will.
“How about this list of school shootings that have occured since the supremes kicked prayer out of school. And only one instance occured BEFORE the supreme court devalued innocent human life.”
Possibly the weirdest conflation ever. And yet more evidence of why we need to bar religious influence from public discourse.
“You will push it underground into more unsafe conditions and have maybe even more abortions because the clinics will close and the other services they provide will be gone too, but you will never stop abortions.”
You can never stop it entirely,but I bet you could reduce it 90%..that’s a lot of lives.
“It’s woman hatred because the government would literally rather see women die, from suicide, starvation, botched abortions and complications of pregnancy, than allow women to control their own bodies.”
Comment by PS — February 24, 2011 @ 2:07 pm
If women would control their own bodies – there would be no need for 95% of the abortions performed today.
Some people learned nothing from “Prohibition”. Making abortions a “bootleg business” again will only create more monsters like Gosnell, not solve the problem. From simple minded people come simple minded solutions that cause more problems than they solve.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — February 24, 2011 @ 11:59 am
Apply the logic above to guns and you might understand why banning guns will only create more monsters and cause more problems than they solve.
Republicans have just lost thousands of women voters in Virginia. The two DINO’s who voted with them should be recalled.
First, there are rallies planned all around the country in response to HR3: http://walkforchoice.tumblr.com/
Also, a few relevant items:
http://5east.tumblr.com/post/3467304352
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/96146/
http://stfuconservatives.tumblr.com/post/3428375248
Seriously. It’s not like people are maniacally running around getting knocked up and then aborting. Many aborted fetuses were very, very wanted but were found to have a serious birth defect, or the mother’s health was in danger. It’s not something people take lightly, and it’s very definitely not something we do just for kicks on a Saturday night!
Planned Parenthood is, in many cases, the only resource for low-income and uninsured women (and men – yes, many clinics perform exams for men, too). Their primary purpose is to provide annual exams, cancer screenings, and access to birth control – and even prenatal care if needed. All these things can help educate women and in fact prevent unplanned pregancies!
By taking away education and access to birth control, and treating women (especially underprivileged women) like we’re too dumb to make our own choices, these folks are creating more problems than they profess to be preventing.
It was very sneaky to have steered that around the Senate committee that would have killed it and to have advanced it to the entire Senate floor where it could receive an up or down vote.
How underhanded can these wascally wepubwickams get?
Thanks Virginia, for reminding everyone why the rest of the country sees us as morons.
You seemed to like the Dems sneak attack on healthcare reform. It’s only a negative thing when it applies to something you don’t agree with.
Amen, will. Good post.
Kristen says: “Gary, you’d better explain this to certain legislators who are usurping God’s right to judge and wanting to do it for themselves.”
Invalid argument. One could say the women having the abortions are usurping God’s right to judge as well by murdering the foetus. The aborter has judged the child unfit for living!
Bzzt! Thanks for playing!
Kristen, there’s more than the woman’s life involved. That’s the connection you are failing to make. From a Christian or Humanist perspective, abortion is murder.
It is about time someone regulated these clinics. We don’t allow murder in any other venues so why should these folks get away with it?
I guess if the right uses the same sneak tatics the left has been using since 2008 isn’t the same as the left doing it to the right….what’s the old saying…what goes around, comes around….I guess it just came around!
People think I am invisible – that I don’t count because my voice cannot be heard yet. I may not be able to read, sing or vote yet but I eat, breathe, move around and hiccup. I am not a blob – I have tiny little eye lashes, my heart beats, and I have tiny little fingernails and I can even suck my thumb inside my mother’s womb.
Drs. tell my mother that every thing she eats or drinks effects me, and I respond to music and sounds.
I am at the mercy of my mother whether I get to live or die. Over 150 years ago that was called slavery, but now they call it choice. Statistically if I am African American the odds are greater that my life will end in abortion. If my mother wants me, most likely she would want me to be born in a hospital with all modern conveniences, but if she chooses to abort me any old unregulated clinic will do – even if that means my mom has complications and dies after I die. That doesn’t make any sense to me, but don’t ask me I don’t get the right to choose life like my mom does.
Tom/Bug,
The Dems in Congress didn’t do a “sneak attack” on healthcare reform. They put up a bill for it. You’re arguing like they attached it to federal legislation about guns or something.
I suspect the lawyers are already getting busy to challenge this.
Seeing as how my wife has been told by her doctors on several occasions that she could die if she were to somehow get pregnant, this bill is something that has me extremely concerned for the women of this state.
I wonder when the GA will deem that any facility offering medical care must conform to hospital standards, since that’s the door they’ve opened.
Purely a slimy, religio-political move that they snuck through by being the weasels that politicians tend to be.
It’s a dark day in the Commonwealth, and not because it’s raining outside.
The aborter has judged the child unfit for living!
Bzzt! Thanks for playing!
Comment by George Krutz, III — February 24, 2011 @ 4:46 pm
Really George? Unlike will, the “aborters” don’t pretend to be channeling God.
Bzzt yourself.
Kristen, there’s more than the woman’s life involved. That’s the connection you are failing to make. From a Christian or Humanist perspective, abortion is murder.
Comment by George Krutz, III — February 24, 2011 @ 4:47 pm
From a legal perspective, it most certainly is not. Maybe that’s what you’re missing. As for the “humanist” view, I think you’re unclear on the definition of “humanist”.
Jimmy,
Maybe the rest of the country sees us as morons because we went for Obama in 2008?
BTW, speak for yourself.
I see no reason to believe that the pro-life movement is biblical. The bible is pretty much anti life. If you christians want to battle verse for verse to see what the bible really says on this, I am game.
Gary – 31
Provide evidence for your baseless bigoted assertions. There have been bastards, unwed mothers and abortions for centuries. Any god you have to fear is a god not worshiping.
Tony –
the bible is pretty clear, ‘life’ begins at birth; fetuses are not life and women should be kept apart while they are unclean.
Will
Correlation =/= causation. Even if your ignorant assertion was related or true (which it is no more true than the ‘facts’ that semi automatic pistols cause fast food obesity, smoking eradicates small pox and bibles cause divorce).
Did you really complain about pushing this through at the last minute?? Really? What, kinda like the congress and how it handled Obama care? Like that? Wow, you libs are sure cry babies especially when the tables are turned.
Paula,
This was abortion-clinic regulation that was attached to another bill, with another subject, by the nonsponsoring body, at the last minute. It was done in a sneaky way that denied the Senate a chance to consider what was a new bill.
That’s not the way health-care worked and you know it. That was its own bill. It wasn’t attached to another (unrelated) piece of legislation. Why mount any kind of an argument that pretends it was? You only make yourself look foolish.
It would be better if you had written: “I don’t care how they did it. I’m just glad it got done.” That would be more honest.
Disgusting that Virginia has been hijacked by ludites, religious freaks and morons.
Keep your white, old man hands out of our pants, out of our bodies, out of our universities.
I am dumbfounded and deeply disturbed that we are quickly sliding into a Mubarak Regime.
Time for a Facebook revolution to take back our beloved Commonwealth. THIS IS A DEMOCRACY
NOT A THEOCRACY. I’m mad as hell and I am NOT the only one.
Tony –
the bible is pretty clear, ‘life’ begins at birth;
Genesis 25:23, Judges 13:5, Judges 16:17, Psalm 22:10, Psalm 139:13, Jeremiah 1:5,Luke 1:15, Luke 1:41, Galatians 1:15…
Vvarlock, this is my only biblical debate I will entertain regarding this matter since I know you are entrenched in your choice of position just as I am entrenched in mine.
Biblical position or not does not change this assertion. If you consider abortion to be murdering innocent human life, respond appropriately! I consider abortion to be murder. In being true to myself I must take a stand against it.
33.Tony are you really that naive? I must be in your opinion. Naivety in this case is a matter of perspective.
A point.
The right has pushed for federal funding for Faith Based charities. They currently have it.
The charities are required to keep separate the money form the federal government and the money for proselytizing. They are also required to keep the secular charitable activities separate from their proselytizing efforts.
If those charities can do it, Planned Parenthood can as well. If Planned Parenthood can not, neither can those.
The difference is that government money can not constitutionally be used for proselytizing, but abortions CAN constitutionally be funded by Federal dollars (just not legally under current federal law).
I believe it is time, once again to assault the faith-based initiative as unconstitutional. Perhaps I will go trolling Catholic soup kitchens next week for unconstitutional activity and see if I can get the ACLU to pay me to be a plaintiff against the Catholic Church (see lies by Suzie for further understanding).
#58 Paula,
I checked out your blog out of curiosity; anyone who thinks newt is going to be elected president is clearly delusional and is not to be taken seriously. Do you not read pols? This issue is a total non-starter. At the moment the only wingnut with any chance of defeating President Obama is Romney and he’s polling 2 points down. Get your head out of the sand; lack of oxygen is making you simple minded.
#61 Keep in mind you are reading your bible in English and we all know it was no written in English. That being said a lot gets lost on the way to the 21st. century. I also think it is a cheap cop out to just try to keep quoting the bible to support an opinion. If we were to go by some laws they had 5,000 years ago we would e in a hell of a jam.
Here is hoping we do not go back to the dark days where women have to fear for their life if they had to make that choosing for their own body.
Was it sneaking? Well yes it was but that is nothing new for the far right wing of the GOP.
There are certainly some here who would welcome a Taliban-like rule.
Time to take our country back indeed.
Cut and paste incoming:
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. — Exodus 21:22-23
The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. — Leviticus 27:6
Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. — Numbers 3:15-16
God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? … Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. — Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. — Hosea 9:14
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. — Hosea 9:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. — Hosea 13:16
God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. — 2 Samuel 12:14
God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.
The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. …
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. — Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28
God’s law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. — Genesis 38:24
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html
Is that a dog sitting on Byron’s head?
And here is a long-winded but interesting take on this:
http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html
Since it is so long I will pull out a couple of good points:
RE:
Psalm 139:13-16 – Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn’t make every living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same as murder. It’s only murder if a full human person is destroyed.
—-
… In the full context of Ecclesiastes, King Solomon makes the point that much of life is futile. Over and over he writes that if life is good then we should be thankful. But when life is not good, Solomon makes some interesting statements:
“If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.’”
Ecclesiastes 6:3-5
Clearly there is a quality of life issue being put forth in the Scriptures. And in this case, Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable life. This is made even more clear in these following verses:
“Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun.”
Ecclesiastes 4:1-3
Here we have an argument for both euthanasia and abortion. When quality of life is at stake, Solomon seems to make the argument that ending a painful life or ending what will be a painful existence is preferable. Now remember, we’re not talking about David’s songs here. We’re reading the words of the man to whom God gave the world’s greatest wisdom.
If women would control their own bodies – there would be no need for 95% of the abortions performed today.
Comment by will — February 24, 2011 @ 4:19 pm
That’s funny Will. I was thinking the same thought. I also wasn’t for sure where PS was coming from with the women starving and killing themselves.
Personally I do not agree with abortion, but I know there are cases where it may be needed or justified. I also acknowledge that I have not been faced with having to make that decision and I don’t judge those who choose that route. They are the ones that have to live with their decision.
Why do Virginia Republicans hate vaginas so much?
52.Tom/Bug,
The Dems in Congress didn’t do a “sneak attack” on healthcare reform. They put up a bill for it. You’re arguing like they attached it to federal legislation about guns or something.
Comment by Dan Casey — February 24, 2011 @ 5:03 pm
Yep, here’s a healthcare reform bill. It was drafted in closed sessions and closed door discussions. You don’t have time to read and understand 15,000 pages, and we’re not going to tell you everything in it, so just trust us and hurry up and pass it. No sneak attack there.
Oh please Dan. It denied the Senate the chance to kill it in committee, but it most certainly DID NOT deny the Senate the chance to consider what was in it. Riddle me this Dano. Isn’t the Senate controlled by the Democrats?
That said, I have mixed emotions about this. On the one hand, I think abortion is all too often used as retroactive birth control or as a convenient remedy for irresponsible behavior. However, I’m not really in favor of outlawing it and heading back to the days of back-room abortions. I do think clinics should be regulated, but in most cases I don’t think they need to be any more regulated that endoscopy clinics or plastic surgery clinics. As long as the procedure is legal, the regulations should be intended to govern safety, not to push a political agenda.
I agree, Sandi. This returns the state to the back-alley abortions by people who don’t even qualify from a sanitation point of view, of out-of-state abortions for the wealthy, Mexican abortions for the not so wealthy, and wire coat-hangers for the rest.
This silly argument reminds me of the angry teenager who says “If you don’t let me go out, I’ll slit my wrists” as if the parent is forcing her to harm herself. Of course, Charlie Self is presenting a false choice. Another alternative is to bear up to the responsibility to human life and make a decision that allows the little person to live.
Frankly, if a woman makes the decision to engage in the filthy business of destroying her child, she SHOULD be relegated to the back alleys and shadows with the drug dealers, pimps, and other dregs of humanity, because that’s what she is.
Abortion should be illegalized, not just to protect human life, but to present the message to society that abortion is seamy, dark, and out of the mainstream. A law would stigmatize abortion
And there you have it. The scum of the earth condemning other people.
The upshot of this will be modern facilities that comply with state regulations.
And again to reiterate a point. I am against abortion and would oppose it if given the opportunity to submit input. Since no woman has asked me what she should do with her body, I keep my opinion where it belongs, in my own head.
The abortion problem today is that, in the current state of our country, too many people are given bad, incomplete or erroneous information regarding sex and family planning. Or are denied access to family planning for a variety of reasons, up to and including financial (which Planned Parenthood is specifically good at targeting).
If the Religious Right REALLY wants to see abortion rates drop, then there are reasonable steps they can take, including proper, informative mandatory sex education to early teens (and repeated with more information as the teens get older), distribution of condoms at colleges or other places young people of the age of consent congregate (or even high schools where most people are already having sex anyway, but their idiotic christian parents deny), etc.
There are other more progressive steps which would also further help keep the abortion rates down, but those I already mentioned are probably too far for the idiotic liars and hypocrites on the right. Suzie’s little catholic head has already spun a full circle and I am seeing split pea soup in our future.
<emAnd there you have it. The scum of the earth condemning other people.
What other kind of name would you call monsters who killed their own children?
“baby butchers” … real nice, Suzie. Let’s hope you, your daughters (if you have any), sisters (if you have any), nieces (if you have any), or female friends (if you have any) never get “knocked up” by a rapist, or wind up carrying a headless baby to term, to be delivered stillborn. Yes, by all means, stop the baby butchers, because terminating a month old fetus is such heartless butchery.
It depends, Art. The upshot could be the end of safe, legal and affordable first-trimester abortions in Virginia. It’s still unclear though.
First, it depending on how far this reclassification of abortion clinics into hospitals extends. If it only applies for the purposes of this bill, it’ll drastically reduced the number of abortion clinics quickly, although more may be built along the lines that PP has been building them for the past 10 years. It would be kind of ironic if lawmakers who demonize PP end up giving the organization an abortion monopoly in Virginia. Moreover, it would put the State Board of Health in the position of issuing regs for abortion clinics. Depending on who’s on the BOH, that could be a bad thing for the clinics.
A worse case scenario comes into play if the reclassification of clinics into hospitals extends beyond this bill. Because if clinics suddenly have to meet hospital regs like those required for ambulatory surgery centers, then the clinics will need Certificates of Need. Those are hard to get — they take years, because the legislature has more or less cut off funding for the agency that is tasked with evaluating CONs. And there are many many more regulations they would have to adhere to as hospitals.
Right now in Virginia, a woman can get a first trimester abortion for under $500. But if she’s past 13 weeks, the only place to go is MCV in Richmond, which requires an overnight stay and (because of its high overhead) charges $4,000. Hospital-like regulations of clinics will invariably push up prices, which will drive women to seek abortions in North Carolina, Maryland, DC and West Virginia. (Until the feds make it illegal to cross state lines for that purpose).
It could be bad but it’s unclear now and it’s going to take awhile to sort out.
Wow! You should all go over and read Paula’s blog! That is if you want to read Suzie’s BS all over again. They sound exactly alike in cluding some of the same vulgarities. Her comments about what a lousy job she was sure Obama would do at the Arizona Memorial service, written before the service took place are real classics! Especially given the nearly universal approval those comments generated.
Could it be? Suzie = Paula?
Somebody explain why Rethugs like McDonnell even bother to continue to lie about why this was passed. Everybody knows it was an attempt to end abortions and nothing else.
#81 Paula puts up what is supposedly her picture at her blog while suzie claims she’s too scared to ID herself.
76.And again to reiterate a point. I am against abortion
Vvarlock, I am glad you at least are opposed to abortion even though we are worlds apart on our view of unborn human life and our responsibility to protect it.
Who’s Paula?
Why do Virginia Republicans hate vaginas so much?
So that makes you a Republican??
Why do liberals like to put themselves in a situation to have a baby then are so quick to take its life when they decide they want to throw it away??
Big Momma writes: “Personally I do not agree with abortion, but I know there are cases where it may be needed or justified. I also acknowledge that I have not been faced with having to make that decision and I don’t judge those who choose that route. They are the ones that have to live with their decision.”
Very well said.
Paula posted a pro-life comment earlier in this thread, and a link to her blog.
Ok I read it, and although she has SuzieQ’s same slightly hysterical tone, Paula is semi-literate and can’t get through a sentence without screwing up a word or two. Suzie’s English is a lot better. So unless she’s faking it here, or there, I can’t say they’re the same person.
No offense, Paula, but if you’re going to link your blog to all your comments, do some proofreading.
MMM, your drivel “Why do liberals like to put themselves in a situation to have a baby then are so quick to take its life when they decide they want to throw it away??” MIGHT make sense if ONLY liberals did so…
“Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as “Born-again/Evangelical”.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
Very well said indeed, Big Momma
I agree that women AND men should be more responsible with their actions. I cannot fathom a situation where I would have chosen abortion, but since human behavior is what it is, abortion must remain safe and legal no matter the strictures that make it more expensive and more difficult to do. The alternative is not a solution. Frankly some people should not reproduce under any circumstances. Voluntary and even free sterilization should be the norm.
If the people so hell bent on ending abortions worked as hard at prevention like comprehensive sex education, free prophylactics, education for situational awareness, drug and alcohol abuse, behavior modifications and even more monitoring and mentoring of teens, I would have some respect for their position. Right now, most of you just sound like Bible thumping, judgmental, self-righteous, “there but for the grace of God” finger pointers.
What is this NONSENSE about the Bible saying life begins at birth?
“Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 The Lord gave me a message. He said, 5 “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world.”
There is another part of Psalms that says you were a sinner even in your mother’s womb.
The Bible is NOT pro-abortion. Life begins at conception.
#92 You have brought up a very good point as to comprehensive sex education.And we need to have that in very good form in the high schools. The thing is many of the bible thumpers or should repressive type folks that do not like the fact that anyone is having any kind of sex, just say no.
At one point I told both my boys about the birds and the bees and told them this is not rocket science.
@93
Says you… yet there above your post is a whole list of references from the same authority. Ambiguous at best in terms of reference from scripture.. as it always is.
I don’t think the argument was that the Bible said life did not begin until birth, I think the argument is that the Bible (of all things) does not especially VALUE the fetus or children for that matter. That whole “kill ‘em all” thing kinda says a lot.
The rhetoric from the anti-choice crowd is of the usual woman-hating “if women could just control themselves blah blah”…. the typical blather that assumes that women magically got pregnant on their own. No mention of how it happened, exactly.
No one has any “responsiblity” towards any “womb” except their own. A lot of the world’s problems could be solved if people would just mind their own business.
“There is another part of Psalms that says you were a sinner even in your mother’s womb.”
What a cheerful philosophy! Small wonder people are bailing on organized religion and church attendance.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/117382/church-going-among-catholics-slides-tie-protestants.aspx
Bob H,
Warlock doesn’t even believe in the Bible. Why would we think he could cite it accurately?
93.What is this NONSENSE ….
I agree BobH but you are beating a dead horse with some on this blog. Obviously, the country as a whole is much divided about this.
@98
So, Suzie…do you think Warlock just made up the citations? I mean the guy provides the appropriate references. It’s apparent to anyone who does actually read a Bible that contradictions are the rule, not the exception.
The Bible says what is says… and you can’t change that reality.
98.Bob H,
Warlock doesn’t even believe in the Bible.
Suzie, that puzzles me in some ways. The Bible or portions of it often become relevant to various individuals when it serves their own agenda. I am sure that Vvarlock believes that the Bible exists and that he is supporting his position through his interpretation of reference material that he knows others will refer.
God apparently valued Jeremiah as a fetus!
Tony,
I agree the country is divided on it but the Bible is clear on it.
BTW, for all who didn’t know it, Jesus was once a fetus. To say the Bible casts no importance on a fetus is to ignore what it says about the temple that is Human life.
#101- “The Bible or portions of it often become relevant to various individuals when it serves their own agenda.”
Tony, this is very true. I hope you don’t take what I’m about to say as trying to be snide or as twisting your words, I’m not. I’m agreeing with exactly what you said, the words themselves, with no slant to them. What you said is done by both Christians and non-Christians alike almost all the time. You can find plenty of examples of it everywhere, including right here on this thread. All of us have been guilty of choosing those verses that backup what we believe while ignoring those that are either hard to justify or explain.
I don’t think Warlock much cares what the Bible says or doesn’t say…he’s just trying to speak to the Bible people in terms they understand.
It’s not a document with any relevance to lawmaking in this country, so I’m not clear why it needs to be consulted at all.
Bob H – fail.
Read your quote again. The Jeremiah quote refers to BEFORE conception. “I knew you before I formed you…” This (as I stated earlier but you could not be bothered to READ) is a function of your god’s alleged prescience/omniscience and has nothing to do with when life begins. Yes god valued Jeremiah before he was born, but also before he was conceived.
However, in Genesis god makes man-fully formed, then breathes life into him and it is at this point that man ‘lives’.
Gen – 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Let’s be clear on one thing. Abortion isn’t about “the women”. Liberals don’t give a crap about women or children, or human life. This is about securing a voting block, primarily of blacks who get by far the greatest ratio of abortions. It’s also about the dollar. Liberals pretend they’re above greed, but there is HUGE money in the abortion mill business. PP makes tens of millions on abortion. The last thing they need is government subsidy. I stood up and cheered when I read the GOP House is going after PP funding. Taxpayer funding for baby-killing members is an unspeakable abomination (obama-nation)
In both cases it is a group (right wingers) that is trying to push their beliefs on all citizens.
Don’t like abortions? Don’t have one!
Love the 10 Commandments? Keep a copy of it in your pocket.
Different Chris,
So you liberals don’t think we should protect people from rape or armed robbery or assault because it would mean “pushing our beliefs on all citizens”.
The sooner you morons stop following the talking points originated in a George Carlin monologue, the smarter you’ll start to sound.
Tony 101
You have the right of it. Of course I believe in the bible. It is a real book. A really bad, evil vile book with really bad messages, detailing the atrocities of the petty tribal god of a group of bronze age goatherds, but it exists.
I believe SunTsu suggested using your enemy’s sword (scouting/strength/etc) against him.
It is necessary to anticipate the arguments of your opponent to win. Knowing he will come with weak, already answered quotes (because they get all their information from the same websites), I can prepare responses or use the responses others have already concocted to save myself the effort.
So, while I do not think the book worthy, some do. Thus the easiest way to take their feet from them is to show their book says things counter to their position and that the quotes they are using do not mean what they are trying to assert they do.
I asked this question several months ago, and I’m still waiting for a response:
If Planned Parenthood is truly concerned with giving women all the available information to help them make the best decision for their pregnancy, WHY are they vigorouslly opposing legislation mandating ultrasounds be offered to all women contemplating an abortion?
Could it be that ultrasounds screw up the carefullly crafted anti-life propaganda that a fetus is a lifeless inhuman blob? Yeah, when women see images of little baby with fingers and toes moving about, they often have a dramatic change of heart. And that means millions of dollars pulled OUT of the pockets of PP. They simply can’t have that.
@93
“There is another part of Psalms that says you were a sinner even in your mother’s womb. ”
How lovely!. Original sin extended to a protoperson who hasn’t yet had a chance to exercise free will. Could this concept be any more perverse?
Biblical literalists and creationists often opine ” well, if we teach’m they came from monkeys, they are going to act like monkeys.” This logical fallacy is oft repeated in support of the notion that morality comes from God. It’s more than a stretch to connect a belief in events of natural history to personal morality.
On the other hand, what I am to think of a philosophy humanity that makes it a point to teach us we are but wretched refuse in need of salvation from a demonstrably murderous God. Apparently so before we’ve even had a chance to make a choice in this earthly life. This is uplifting belief?
29.Good post Mark. More evidence here… this list of school shootings.
Wow, Will I had no Idea!
I wonder if Suzie, Jony, will, etc. are as vigorous about condemning in vitro fertilization for infertile couples? Several embryos are created in the process, and many are destroyed. I mean, life begins at conception, right? Where is the outrage, guys?
So VVarlock
oh learned sage of the blog page —i am so humbled that you venture off your lofty peak to educate such an ignorant one as I.
So give us your expositional exhortation as to the dramatic escalation of school violence since the 1970′s .
Love NRV wrote “THIS IS A DEMOCRACY, NOT A THEOCRACY.
Correction, The United States of America is a Republic not a democracy…
I’m sorry you are mad, but there’s allot of people that are very mad that millions of babies have been aborted legally or not, and according to God’s Word – that’s innocent blood that has been spilled.
And VV wrote: We’re reading the words of the man to whom God gave the world’s greatest wisdom. in reference to VV”s take on Solomons writing saying abortion and euthanasia was “favorable”.
I guess I’m confused VV, you write in any other thread that The Bible isn’t God’s Word, that there is no such thing as “GOD”, Jesus didn’t live, on and on and now you write using Bible verses in an attempt to throw back into faces of those That are Pro Life that Love The Lord that Solomon wrote favoring death?
Only by the Holy Spirit living inside of you can you read and truly interpret God’s Word, this IS according to Scripture. Of course you can read The Bible, you obviously have – but you don’t have any spiritual understanding of it because you are not born of The Spirit. You have said you were once a Christian but found out “better” by research. By your own words, sadly, you were never born again – never a real change in your heart. And that’s where the kingdom of God on earth exists, in our hearts and soul.
Could it be? Suzie = Paula?
Why not? I’ve been everybody else. The real question is whom haven’t I been. Other than myself, of course.
From a legal perspective, it most certainly is not. Maybe that’s what you’re missing.
The dumbass argument rears its ugly ahead again. Yoohoo, Krissy. We know abortion is legal. The whole point of the discussion is we don’t think it should be.
“Abortion should be legal because it’s legal”. — Leftwing morons
Interesting Tony,
Under your theory, a person can be a person before they are even a fetus.
What difference does it make what is printed in the bible? The stories in the bible were all copied from the Mithraic religion that happened 200 years earlier anyway.
Besides, if there was this god you speak of why is he so mean? Why wouldn’t he just not let women get pregnant in the first place unless they met his standards as written in the “bible”? I mean he controls everything that happens right? Everything happens for a reason there isn’t any real science or biology involved right?
@110
“If Planned Parenthood is truly concerned with giving women all the available information to help them make the best decision for their pregnancy, WHY are they vigorously opposing legislation mandating ultrasounds be offered to all women contemplating an abortion?”
Because an ultrasound isn’t necessary for a women to make an informed decision about her pregnancy.
And, while we are at it, let’s point out the blatant hypocrisy of your position as it relates to mandated health procedures. You’ll “b and m” all day about the new health care plan that requires people to have health care insurance. Or, an even better example, propagate the silly rumor that a health care policy will include “death panels”. You consistently view this as an intrusion on individual rights, but would then turn around and support legislation that requires a women to undergo a procedure she doesn’t need and doesn’t want.
So much for limited government in people’s lives.
Abortion is going to happen whether you agree with it or not. My advice is to keep it legal and as safe as possible instead of resorting back to unclean, unsafe practices.
Safe for whom, moron? Abortion is going to be deadly for babies no matter how you try to dress it up.
And by your logic, why don’t we just legalize crack? That would save people from the danger of improper sanitation and dangerous back alleys
Since no woman has asked me what she should do with her body, I keep my opinion where it belongs, in my own head.
The central issue isn’t the ‘woman’s body’, dimwit. That would be as absurd as saying we have no right to tell a rapist what he can or can’t do with his body.
Will I just read your post. So by prayer in schools you mean a prayer approved by you and your god correct? Not someone elses god. I don’t know if I want my kids praying to your god if he is so mean to let all of those inoccent children be killed because of something decided by adults.
Isn’t it kind of funny that when your god kills a bunch of people it’s OK because he was teaching us a lesson but when someone else’s god is responsible for killing a bunch of people it’s a crime.
Republicans have just lost thousands of women voters in Virginia
Right, moron. The anti-life extremists never voted for us in the first place.
I wonder if Suzie, Jony, will, etc. are as vigorous about condemning in vitro fertilization for infertile couples? Several embryos are created in the process, and many are destroyed. I mean, life begins at conception, right? Where is the outrage, guys?
I’ve always been opposed to in-vitro fertilization for that reason, Mark. Besides, it’s unnatural.
Ok, this comment is for those who believe in a God. You were given free choice and a brain that questions for a reason, otherwise wouldn’t God have just made puppets instead? Does this mean you can do horrible things to yourself and others? Yes, it does. But does it mean that there won’t be consequences to your actions? I think everyone knows the answer to that. In this instance, it comes down to who has the right to decide what that consequence is.
As to the Bible, it’s incomplete and been translated. And if you’ve ever taken a foreign language you’ll know that some words, when translated, can have the “texture” lost or changed from that of the original meaning. Could it also be that what you have might be completely contradicted by what’s not there? I have no idea, because I have no idea what portions were discarded ages ago. I do know there are contradictions even in the remaining books.
Since no one does know what was lost, than perhaps that means you shouldn’t base everything you believe only on this portion of the Bible you do have. Maybe God wants you to use that “questioning brain” you were given to study, search, ask, and to find. I think many may not want to, because if they question and search too much they’re afraid that there might not be a God at the end. Not asking isn’t based on faith though, it’s based on fear.
Tony, this is very true….
I take no offense Magpie that is why I referred to various individuals.
BTW, for all who didn’t know it, Jesus was once a fetus.
Not only that but the Bible makes much of Jesus’ conception. John the Baptist’s response to the news of that conception while still in the womb is also recorded.
Suzie in the past you’ve indicated you’re against the pill because, you say, it’s an abortifacient.
Are you opposed to condoms or diaphrams?
#125 Gosh, suze, tell that to all the people who wouldn’t be alive today if it weren’t for in vitro. Should they have never existed?
“We know abortion is legal. The whole point of the discussion is we don’t think it should be.”
Who cares?
“WHY are they vigorouslly opposing legislation mandating ultrasounds be offered to all women contemplating an abortion? ”
What is it about the word “mandating” that you don’t get? Other than maybe the word itself. If there’s no medical need – the doctor’s and patient’s call, not the fundy nutball’s call – there’s no reason for it. Duh.
Not only is this a women’s issue…it’s SOLELY a women’s issue. Why on earth should anyone have to consult men or non-fertile women on writing the rules regarding pregnancy management…it would make as much sense to consult a Magic 8 Ball.
You know what, charlie…there are lots of things that “make me mad”. Hungry families, needlessly sick people, bigotry, predatory behavior…all these things. I, unlike some, don’t expect laws to be written to enforce my particular pet peeves. I do what I can about them otherwise. If abortion upsets you, go volunteer somewhere you can do some actual good to actual women facing unwanted pregnancy. Or better yet, some place that advocates and educates about birth control.
The completely insane linkage of school violence and abortion (which when I told someone about this they laughed out loud) is insanity, and why women really shouldn’t have to rely on a quorum of whackjobs for guidance when making life altering decisions. Abortion…safe, legal, available, and the law of the land. Get over it.
#29 Will, you can’t honestly think that there was just one killing at a school before 1974. After you find a source for killings before 1974, get back to us with the whole list.
“Not only that but the Bible makes much of Jesus’ conception. John the Baptist’s response to the news of that conception while still in the womb is also recorded.”
A pre-natal Tweet. How precious.
“And again to reiterate a point. I am against abortion”
Why are you against it,when you have no religious beliefs?
Tony – nothing in the bible was “recorded”. It’s all information written as it was passed on supposedly by word of mouth. Even the bible scholars will tell you all of the stories were written by men who weren’t really there when the supposed events happened.
Magpie – great post and great comment about the fear.
Let’s see, MMM, a certain poster on this thread has now used moron (at least three times), dumbass, and dimwit. It’s the same troll dave was talking about on another thread. And it wasn’t gdad.
#115 I have only been born once and that is enough. I do not need to be born again. Please keep in mind the bible was written by men which on the face on it I have problems with that and how women are looked at.
So many of us reach what ever we are looking for and does not only have to have the holy spirit but what ever works for them. There is more then one way to go I think.
Thank you Magpie. I loved that. You put into words so easily the way I have felt about all that for a long time.
Rail like the banshee you are Suzie. The truth will out. Banning abortions will cause more problems than it solves, simply because as usual in all their Conservative dullness they have done nothing to fix the problems that cause abortions to be sought. The only thing you will stop is the lower cost, closer to home services and in many clinics that close, a safe family planning helper. You can succeed in making it more difficult, more expensive and maybe even more dangerous but you cannot stop it. You hurt women AND you do not save any “babies”, feel good about the nothing you have done, but do not call it anything resembling a solution. Even if it goes as planned (and I doubt it), it just means you have added to the rolls of poverty and safety net program costs. Congratulations, it’s an invoice.
I don’t think anyone “likes abortion”
The question is who should make the judgment of whether to abort a child or not.The mother or big Government.I say it should be the mothers choice.
Its between her and God.She must bear the responsibility of her own decision,and government has no place in the issue IMO.
What is it about the word “mandating” that you don’t get? Other than maybe the word itself. If there’s no medical need
Do tell why you don’t want women to have all the information possible? You hypocrites claim to want fewer abortions without banning abortion, Isn’t this precisely a way in which that could happen?
Are you opposed to condoms or diaphrams?
Yes. I believe these means frustrate God’s purpose, although I don’t see them as grievously wrong as abortifacients.
Interesting that when Sandi felt the need to refute my statement that liberals have abortions, she throws around figures about the percentage of people (who identify themselves, anyway) as having some form of religion.
That’s quite telling there.
Not only is this a women’s issue…it’s SOLELY a women’s issue
Right. Just like rape is solely a man’s issue.
Moron.
Because an ultrasound isn’t necessary for a women to make an informed decision about her pregnancy.
If ultrasounds have a high statistical likelihood of changing women’s minds, sounds like many DO need that information.
And therein lies the REAL problem for you leftwing hypocrites.
Kristen wrote: “You know what, charlie…there are lots of things that “make me mad”. Hungry families, needlessly sick people, bigotry, predatory behavior…all these things. I, unlike some, don’t expect laws to be written to enforce my particular pet peeves. I do what I can about them otherwise. If abortion upsets you, go volunteer somewhere you can do some actual good to actual women facing unwanted pregnancy. Or better yet, some place that advocates and educates about birth control”.
Thank you Kristen, and I do all that and more.
However I don’t expect laws to be written to enforce my pet peeves either – too many laws on the books now.
But this is a blog, and unless Dan strickens my writing on these threads, I have a right to have my say just like the rest. I use my nickname Charlie because I have gone by that most of my life with most of my closest friends – even though I am a woman.
I know what it’s like to be pregnant, both as an “unplanned pregnancy” as a teen ager and later as an adult with a planned one. I know what it’s like to be raped and although I don’t like talking or writing about it, I too went through a time which I was concerned I was pregnant; of which I was not.
I personally believe abortion is wrong that it is murder of an unborn baby. But like everything else I cannot choose for someone else and unfortunately it’s legal right now here in America – all three trimesters – the mother can choose to abort her baby right up until and in labor depending upon where she lives (which state in America).
Just because abortion is legal and available statistically it is not safe. There are so many women/girls who have abortions at planned parenthood and have complications only to be whisked out the back door not in an ambulance but in a car taken to an ER and do you think they will list abortion as cause of complication or death of the girl/woman?
There have been more than 1 planned parenthood director that has realized abortions are destroying not only the lives of the unborn but the women and that planned parenthood is set up like to give %’s of abortions funds to directors per abortion. Commissions off of abortions that is sickening. Making money working at places aborting babies shouldn’t be like making money selling cars – but that’s how it works. And that’s not from me, that’s from directors of planned parenthood.
#134 & 137- Thanks OG & MMM. I definitely could have made it more concise, but it’s what I feel.
#139- I agree, Jack.
#29- This is concerning will’s post. I’m only going to provide two examples of violence that happened at a school before the 70′s, because I wanted to highlight why these two individuals did what that. It’s also to show that not everything can be attributed to the second portion of my post either.
Bath Township, Michigan was the site of the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. It happened on May 18, 1927. 38 primary school children (2nd- 6th grade) and 7 adults were killed, and at least 58 other people were injured. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building.
In August 1966 Charles Whitman climbed a 27-story tower at the University of Texas and shot passersby on the campus below before being killed by police. Fifteen people were killed, including his mother and wife, whom he had shot the night before. An autopsy found he had been suffering from a brain tumor.
I wonder what causes were listed for each of the incidents that Will provided. That’s not intended to be a “snarky” question. I really am interested in knowing. Also, here’s a different reason someone else provided. I really hate even bringing it up, because then here comes a gun thread.
“Since 1970, the number of guns in the United States has doubled, to about 200 million…National surveys tell us that about 20 percent or youths have brought some sort of weapon to school. Far more youths than this say they can easily get a gun. In rural areas and small towns, where most school shootings have taken place, access to firearms is more assured.” Rampage: the social roots of school shootings
#142 It is not only liberals that have abortions but if your were to ask many women in the GOP I am sure you would get not such a black and white response.
My comment should read “…why these two individuals did what they did.”
This thread reminds me of a story about Jesus:
“At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him (Jesus), and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”"
If all the energy used talking about this issue were spent actually helping women in a crisis pregnancy situation, the world would be a much better place.
#73, from, of course, Suzie: “Frankly, if a woman makes the decision to engage in the filthy business of destroying her child, she SHOULD be relegated to the back alleys and shadows with the drug dealers, pimps, and other dregs of humanity, because that’s what she is.”
As I’ve said before, Suzie is to be pitied. Anyone who feels so bad about other people who make different choices than she does is slipping into her “dregs of humanity” category.
I need a few days off from here again. Judgmental people who have never faced choices others without major advantages face make me ill. Suzie, or whatever her name and sex really is, is right on top of that heap.
Pity her.
But utlrasounds are just crazy scientific technical mumbo jumbo. Your god will tell you when you are pregnant. Of course your god controls when you get pregnant too so there really is no need for birth control.
Maybe that’s Suzie’s real problem. Her god has never deemed her worthy of carying one of his children and she’s angry at all the other people that get pregnant on accident. Ooops, I mean because god likes them better, nothing happens by accident.
Very very weird that the loudest screamers against choice in here are the ones without kids.
Suzie, since you don’t believe in contraception, do you believe it’s God’s purpose for women to have more children than they can afford to take care of? I’m not talking about unwed mothers, I’m talking about married women in a strong committed marriage. I cannot imagine being pregnant year after year until menopause finally comes along.
Suzie, the fact that you’re incapable of differentiating between rape – which is a complete denial of choice to a woman – and reproductive freedom, which puts choice back in her hands just proves that your views of sex are as screwed up and weird as your views on everything else.
I don’t happen to think you’re female, because no real woman in 2011 would be remotely interested in being associated with Sandra Dee. But even assuming you are…how freaking weird.
I once heard that nearly half of all women have an abortion and that almost half of all abortions happen after the NINTH WEEK of pregnancy.
How cruel.
# 142 Are you saying conservatives don’t have abortions?
I wish I had a dollar for every time Suzie calls someone a moron, I’d probably be as rich as she claims to be!
Charlie 115
That work from which you quote was not mine. Thus the “And here is a long-winded but interesting take on this:” “http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html” and “Since it is so long I will pull out a couple of good points:”at the opening of my post. However, that aside, the easiest way to smash the bible is to take its claims and use them against it. I do not have to believe the things it says if my opponent does(or claims to without having read the bible, which is more often the case).
As for the rest of your stuff I have never said Jesus did not live, merely that there is no contemporary extra-biblical evidence to support the claim. Similarly for your god, there is not sufficient evidence to overcome even a modicum of incredulity. As for me, I was a christian, thought/claimed/believed that I felt the things you people and those around me claim(ed) to feel, was baptized, was a junior deacon and teen leader, etc. The difference is that a ‘crisis of faith’ caused me to read the whole bible cover to cover and what I read eventually (over a years long path) led me to reject both christianity and the bible.
Now you say, in what appears from here to be massive arrogance (feel free to read pride), that I was never a christian because I am now apostate. The ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy writ for everyone to observe. No one who is not now a christian can ever have been according to this logic. I know you are not this ignorant.
In your opening of this post, there has been response to this claim. Your god does not value fetuses and infants under 1 month of age as he values full humans. Please read up in this thread, that has been answered.
Will, I call bull pucky on you school violence and prayer hypothesis:
It is beyond ludicrous and simplistic to blame removal of prayer, or God (as if) from schools for school violence. I know that closed and simple minds want someone to blame and there is that, but it is not God, who can be removed from nothing and not prayer which also cannot be removed. Opportunistic bashing is all this is. This argument falls apart quickly when you ask if a Jewish or Muslim teacher should be preaching and praying with your child. They only mean Christian preaching and Christian praying.
Among the myriad reasons for school violence/shootings are:
Instability in far too many homes is number one IMO. Parents, overworked, feeling the frustration of low wages and struggling to make ends meet not having the quality time needed to develop mentally healthy children and the abuse and other forms of dysfunction.
The relative availability of weapons is second as it is most often a crime of opportunity. Guns are in millions of homes.
Undiagnosed or untreated mental issues like depression, anxiety and even ADHD can lead a child toward an explosive decision and prevent good decision making. Feelings of desperation, failure and futility can lead to the “famous final scene” endings.
Bullying that came into prominence once corporal punishment was removed from the purview of teachers and administrators. Often bullies come from dysfunction of one kind or another and they lash out with greater and greater magnitude as they age with little consequences within the school systems. This can be laid at the feet of liberals and I accept that. I have never and will never agree that anyone has the right to hit my child. The school systems should have come up with successful measures to meet the bullying and belligerence that intimidates and makes life miserable for their victims.
Peer influence, poor academic progress or feeling “outside the norm”. Kids claim individuality but are pack mentalities. Feeling rejected or misunderstood is a powerful burden.
Violence in movies, music and video games has to be considered. From very young ages kids are playing video games that are bloody, violent and reprisal and revenge motivated. They can become anesthetized to the idea and gore of violence. Liberals like Tipper Gore tried to fight this fight with parental warnings and was roundly lambasted for her efforts but it remains a truism. Many parents will still ignore the parental warnings and allow their 7 and 8 year olds to play very violent, malevolent and revenge themed games and other influences their brains are too young to really process and categorize.
Prove me wrong Will!
Quoting Suzie: “dimwit… moron… idiot… dimwit… moron… idiot… dimwit… moron… idiot….”
I think Will is onto something with the school shootings. I am currently working on a list of all murders since the first printing of the bible. I am sure they are related…wouldn’t you agree will?
118.Interesting Tony, Under your theory,…
BobH
According to scripture, Jesus’ personality existed before he was conceived. I do not know that that is my theory. It does seem that in some cases scripture supports others existing before conception. I do believe we are eternal beings. If eternity is as much past as future our existing before conception may be a hypothesis to consider. Certainly, our breath of life existed before our conception since God is the source of that breath. The scripture from Jeremiah that we both posted supports Jeremiah’s existence before conception. Thinking abstractly, I would not discount the possibility.
134.Tony – nothing in the bible was “recorded”.
As recorded by men inspired by God.
Mutt,
Just curious: Are you going to include abortions in you list?
A pre-natal Tweet. How precious.
Did not think of it like that. Good thought though. Definitely precious!
Suzie, the fact that you’re incapable of differentiating between rape – which is a complete denial of choice to a woman – and reproductive freedom, which puts choice back in her hands just proves that your views of sex are as screwed up and weird as your views on everything else.
Actually, Krissy, rape and abortion are analogous in that the object of the violence has no say in the matter.
The differences are: abortion always results in death and in abortion, the perpetrator of the violence is somehow absolved of the monstrous crime.
Very very weird that the loudest screamers against choice in here are the ones without kids.
How does not having a child negate one’s right to protect human beings? So many things you bitch about that have nothing to do with you. Taxation on the wealthy achievers comes to mind.
Thank you Charlie for the insight into your beliefs.
I once heard that nearly half of all women have an abortion and that almost half of all abortions happen after the NINTH WEEK of pregnancy.
How cruel.
Yeah Mark. If those women were only shown ultrasounds of children that developed, many if not most would not go through with the abortions. PP is fighting VERY hard against that legislation.
It also puts to lie questions the left uses “What about incest, rape, and the life of the mother?” That’s a smokescreen since 99+% of abortions are done solely for convenience. No health issues. No rape. No incest. Just for the hell of it.
I don’t happen to think you’re female, because no real woman in 2011 would be remotely interested in being associated with Sandra Dee. But even assuming you are…how freaking weird.
Hon, I’m sorry you have always been considered so unattractive that you would comment with envy on another woman’s appearance. 48 years old and such things still bother you. Now THAT’s weird.
“Yeah Mark. If those women were only shown ultrasounds of children that developed, many if not most would not go through with the abortions.”
In other words, guilt them into not getting abortions.
I would bet you that Suzie’s lobbying the church right now to prevent absolution, in the confessional, for any woman who has an abortion.
I will respect your position on abortion and accept that your real goal is to protect “life” when you do something besides insult women who make this awful choice. Not one of you has offered any solution except make it harder, more expensive and add even more gut-wrenching guilt to anyone having an abortion. You have offered NOTHING that would help it not be sought out.
Re: #161 & #29
Check out the logical fallacies “Post hoc ergo propter hoc” and “Cum Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc.”
1) Post hoc ergo propter hoc
So, roosters crow just before the sun rises. Therefore, roosters crowing cause the sun to rise.
2) Cum Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc
So, the bigger a child’s shoe size, the better the child’s handwriting.
Therefore, having big feet makes it easier to write.
FWIIW — like anything else, the concept of logical fallacies can be misunderstood and misused. To say that an argument is fallacious is to claim that there is not sufficiently strong logical connections between the premisses and the conclusion.
However, this says nothing about the actual truth-value of the conclusion. It might in fact be true — just not proven by the argument given. So it is unwarranted to conclude that a proposition is false simply because some argument for it is fallacious.
However, that said, I wish folk who post arguments for a point of view would avoid as many fallacious arguments as they can.
In other words, guilt them into not getting abortions.
I think it’s more like “Oh, my God! That’s a real person in there. That’s my baby. What was I thinking?”
Dan’s trivialization of that emotion is reflective of his trivialization of a human life. It’s much larger than that. It’s an epiphany or coming to one’s senses.
#155 You once heard, MMM? That’s real solid.
Dan, I sort of doubt that Suzie has any influence with the church, the Almighty, the General Assembly, doctors, women contemplating an abortion, or even her pet cat. People like Suzie who claim to be smarter than anyone else, who demean everyone who disagrees, have few friends and no influence with anyone.
Liberte here is used to a world where on liberals are allowed to speak frankly and forcefully on topics like abortion. It upsets him terribly when a strong conservative woman beats the hell out of every single leftwing talking point and doesn’t apologize for it.
Yep gdad, thanks for proving my point. It was actually from the link that Sandi referenced… really solid, huh??
I will respect your position on abortion and accept that your real goal is to protect “life” when you do something besides insult women who make this awful choice. Not one of you has offered any solution except make it harder, more expensive and add even more gut-wrenching guilt to anyone having an abortion. You have offered NOTHING that would help it not be sought out.
Catholic Charities has a whole adoption network, hon. They offer all sorts of material help to women to help them raise their babies. Contrast that to PP who explains “options” to women on how best to destroy their children, but really doesn’t want to steer them from abortion. (Oh, and did you know PP makes BIG money on abortions?)
Let’s see, granddad, Suzie still didn’t use any of the terms that dave called you out for using…
“Hungry families” — What’s keeping you from giving of your own resources, however meager they may be?
“needlessly sick people” – What’s keeping you from giving of your own resources, however meager they may be?
“bigotry” — Yeah, it is a shame leftwingers are racial and religious bigots. On that, you could start by looking in the damn mirror
“predatory behavior” – nothing but a leftwing talking point. The main thing you can do is ask your Oprah-watching pals to assume some damn personal responsibility.
“I do what I can about them otherwise.” — You don’t do a damn thing except demand everybody else pay.
Butch has been on the crack today. How many posts, Dan?
Art,
From what I can tell, it’s 13 on Friday. Not anywhere near her record.
Mark,
I see Granddad has latched onto you in terms of a stalking obsession. While I feel bad for you, I’m glad he’s somewhat moved on from me.
Butch has been on the crack today. How many posts, Dan?
–says Poodle at nearly 2am.
I’ll bet he doesn’t find Natalie Wood the least bit attractive, btw.
I almost never hear of the people fighting abortion putting their names in the bucket to be chosen as adoptive parents.
How would you know that, idiot?
Tony – inspired by a god that none of these men had ever met and just took other people at their word for it. Not too mention those same stories were written 200 year earlier by another religion. According to some published documents the holocaust never happened either but that doesn’t make it true.
#179 Nah, MMM , she just used them all in other threads. I’m still waiting for your proof that I’ve EVER used any of those terms, except one of them once.
No proof, eh? Why don’t you just quit lying all the time.
#183 Troll, pointing out or highlighting the lies, distortions, and completely uncivil rudeness of beings like you and troll2 is not the same as stalking. It’s kind of like a civic duty.
Must have been a bad day for tips at the Cracker Barrel.
#155 See, troll2, you didn’t HEAR it. You read it.
I’ll bet he doesn’t find Natalie Wood the least bit attractive, btw.
Comment by Suzie — February 26, 2011 @ 6:49 am
What on earth does this post have to do with anything? And “btw”, Natalie Wood is dead. And “btw” why don’t you have any cultural references from after 1970?
Greg, obviously we see things differently where God is concerned and where he is capable of inspiring his word to be written and in his capability of preserving his word in spite of humankind’s limitations.
Well, Dan. If the person (no matter how little) being slaughtered has a heartbeat and also hasn’t indicated in writing that they want to be taken off of life support, then I guess you have to count it as a murder.
You are truly bizarre… you are (self admittedly) stalking someone across threads.
Then you go on to say about dave’s list of offensive terms, ‘GIVE ME PROOF I’VE EVER USED ANY OF THEM BEFORE!!! (then in a pipsqueaky voice) well ok i did use one of them… BUT SHOW ME WHERE I’VE EVER SAID ANOTHER ONE!!!’
” I’m still waiting for your proof that I’ve EVER used any of those terms, except one of them once” – gdad
You are like one of those Staples buttons that people press, except yours would say ‘Moron’ …. CLICK… that was easy.
Wrong again, gdad. Ever heard of text-to-speech?? It reads what I have on the screen to me.
Funny thing is, whenever it reaches your posts, it reads them in the voice of a whiney, crybaby-like, child voice while wiping his wittle nose. This program really IS smart!
“What on earth does this post have to do with anything?”
Tinkerbelle doesn’t like me questioning his gender, it’s his feeble attempt at a defense. He’s right, though, I’m more of a Raquel Welch fan.
Art, Raquel Welch still looks absolutely great. She’s got the fountain of youth in her backyard I think.
#194 AS I thought. What a dolt.
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Maybe your Catholic Charities should work on the fact that Catholic women account for 31.3% of abortions, hon.
Art, Raquel Welch still looks absolutely great. She’s got the fountain of youth in her backyard I think.M
It’s called ‘surgery’, Botox Barbie.
Poodle is one of these 60-something uneducated rednecks who is scared to death of wealthy people and intelligent women. He’s was probably in a union somewhere along the line, has never made more than $25K as an hourly worker. He doesn’t understand how people can earn six or seven figures, since he’s never heard of a job that pays more than 20 bucks an hour. The only conclusion he can draw is that they stole it or cheated losers like him out of it.
He’s from an era where the little woman cooked, cleaned and got him his beer. It turns his world upside when a conservative woman comes in and bitch slaps his idiotic bigoted notions, or dares question the almighty government to which he’s been beholden so long. His only defense is to scream “You’re not a woman!” and to make vulgar sexist comments to try to cut these women down to size while attempting to bolster his own ‘shortcomings’. Men like this often dress like women in private.
“Men like this often dress like women in private.”
Or play one on a blog. You should know, Butch…
Suzie
It might be more to the point if an educated, intelligent or wealthy conservative woman were the one confronting him.
I see no reason to believe that you are ANY of those things. Your ‘conservatism’ is so reactionary as to be unrecognizable to most conservatives in this country.
As to your ‘bitch slap’ping him: your lame half-brained attempts to counter people’s arguments on this blog have virtually never amounted to even adequater response, let alone ‘bitch slap’ing anyone.
It’s called ‘surgery’, Botox Barbie.
Comment by Suzie — February 26, 2011 @ 7:20 pm
Naaaa…I think it’s called “jealousy”.
See how good it is at making up fantasies? For itself and now for others. You are so wrong it is funny. You are wrong about Art and you are crazy if you think anyone here believes you to be attractive, educated, wealthy or swimming with the big boys in politics. You are a fringe eater, pure and simple. No one lets people like you near the real decisions.
LOL
Does anyone else see the extreme irony, or maybe hypocrisy, of those who normally champion less Government Regulation on business, now championing more Government Regulation on a businesses?
“adequater”?
HFH.
HFH ???
Habitat For Humanity?
Henry Ford Hospital (Detroit, Michigan)?
Homes for Haringey (London, England, UK with some wards classified as being among the most deprived in the country)?
Heart Failure Hospitalization?
????
No, Dave H. It has something to do with Holy Hell.
#211 IOW, troll is getting more and more vulgar. I’m sure troll2 will get all upset with her any time now.
Suzie
Obviously that should have been adequate. The r is next to the e and we are looking at a simple typo that I missed.
Do you really want to attack me over a typo?
I am telling you, “Norma Desmond” determines the facts in her little (and shrinking) world. When someone calls out HER typos they are just being petty, when she calls out someone else it is “HFH” call Mr, DeMille news! What a sad little caricature. Kinda like MMM and his “call outs”. A life that empty is to be pitied.
“Do you really want to attack me over a typo?”
Its a way of life on this blog so,why not?
The sheer idiocy of trying to play the pedant with me is astounding.
I typically only take someone to task over typos and spelling errors in response and as one of the most eloquent, verbose and long-winded of the gonzos, I think the most hated blog persona here attacking me over a simple typo is a very bad idea. Especially in light of the fact that Suzie can not even be bothered to answer the questions posed to her, like: is this person really a catholic? and how can you tell?
Man Warlock I got like a hundred religious folks looking forward to showing you the light.When ya coming?
Hoping to be there this summer, but a recent development may keep me from taking a vacation this summer.
And I would love to meet your ‘religious’ folks. I typically find that when pressed for actual discussion none fare any better than Suzie. When pressed by an actual, knowledgeable non-religious person who has heard all the same old lies for jesus, they typically crumple as fast as Mark here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAuFJKQh83Y
56, BobH, “Maybe the rest of the country sees us as morons because we went for Obama in 2008?”
Uh, BobH, most of the rest of the country went for Obama, too. He may have not had a landslide, but he sure had a goodly number of states’ electoral votes when all was said and done. The election didn’t swing on “chad.”
The only way Jack knows 100 people is if he has a Klan meeting for VVarlock to attend; and “religious” is doubtful beyond what serves their hatred and bigotry, just like his.
We don’t have many real “religious folks” on this blog, unless “Who Would Jesus Crap All Over” is considered a tenet of Judeo-Christianity. We got a lot of Fauxians.