Was there a conflict with new Va. abortion clinic regs?
Victoria Cobb | AP
Matt Cobb | LeadVirginia.org
Meet Victoria Cobb, president of The Family Foundation, and queen of Virginia’s faith-based anti-abortion activists.
Now meet her husband, Matt Cobb, deputy secretary of Health and Human Resources since his appointment by Gov. Bob McDonnell in January 2010.
Friday, the Virginia Department of Health recommended new architectural standards for abortion clinics — regulations that the state’s existing 22 clinics would have to abide by. It’s caused an uproar across the women’s health community in Virginia.
This is a product of a backdoor legislative maneuver in the 2011 General Assembly session and it could shut down all the existing abortion clinics in the commonwealth.
And now, questions are being raised about whether that’s happening again, in a different manner, because the dog guarding the regulatory henhouse is married to the fox who’s been trying to gut it for years. Or something along those lines. You get the drift. It sure seems cozy.
From Huffington Post:
[Tarina] Keene and other members of the Virginia Coalition to Protect Women’s Health are questioning whether the surprisingly severe restrictions, which were drafted by the Virginia Department of Health and presided over by the state’s Secretary of Health and Human Services, were fueled by a conflict of interest in the administration. Matt Cobb, Victoria Cobb’s husband, was appointed Deputy Secretary of Health and Human Resources in 2010, and Keene says he sat in on many of the meetings with her and her colleagues in which the new regulations were being discussed.
This all goes back to a sneak attack in the House of Delegates in February upon a noncontroversial Senate bill that set infection-control, security and disaster preparedness standards for hospitals and nursing homes.
SB924 passed the Senate Health and Education Committee (the traditional burying ground for anti-abortion legislation) unanimously, and it passed the Democratic-controlled Senate without a dissenting vote, too.
Things got interesting once it got over to the Republican-controlled House. There, Del. Kathy Byron, R-Lynchburg, added a 26-word amendment that defined as hospitals any clinic that performs more than 5 abortions a month.
The amended bill went back to the full Senate (not the committee), where two anti-abortion Democrats and 18 Republicans voted for it, leaving the count tied 20-20. Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling sided with siding with abortion opponents and broke the tie. Gov. Bob McDonnell later signed the bill. And that’s how abortions got redefined as hospitals, which the source of much of the current angst.
Clearly the Republicans outfoxed the Democrats on this one. Abortion rights supporters never saw it coming until it was way too late to stop it. And now that seems to be happening once again.
When the bill passed, Victoria Cobb issued a press release hailing the legislation as “”a monumental win for the pro-life movement.”
As anti-abortion lobby queen AND wife of a high ranking official who could meddle with the coming regulations, she probably had the keenest understanding in Richmond of what would be coming.
Back in February, abortion rights supporters predicted the legislation could mean 17 abortion clinics in the state would have to close — but that five Planned Parenthood clinics (including the one on Peter’s Creek Road in Roanoke) would be able to stay open because they had been built to the more stringent hospital-like standards.
Now, surprised Planned Parenthood officials say even those clinics won’t meet the proposed new standards because they’re the most stringent in the nation. From another Huffington Post article:
The Virginia League of Planned Parenthood said none of its five clinics are currently in compliance with the draft regulations. The renovations required to meet the new rules would cost millions of dollars, and abortion clinics would have to foot the cost themselves and try to recoup the money in patient fees down the road.
“We recently spent $4.6 million on renovations for the building I’m in, and we still don’t meet these requirements,” said Paulette McElwain, president and CEO of VLPP. “I think it’s highly likely that most facilities in Virginia that provide abortions wont be able to meet them either.”
The proposed standards are up for public comment now. The state Board of Health will vote on them Sept. 15. You can offer your input by emailing the department at this address: OLC-Inquiries@vdh.virginia.gov
Note: This post has been edited to remove a previous link and include the email address for the Virginia Department of Health’s office on Li censure and Certification of Health Care Facilities.
August 31, 2011 - 6:00 AM
As Gomer Pyle used to say, “Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!!”
What kills me are the other services for women that will suffer with this stupid regulation(s). Also, though they deny it and claim all this hooey about health care, it all comes down to a book that the two pictured above claim faith in (and others). But the Man himself they follow never spoke about abortion. And the rest of the Book was put together by MEN in the late 300′s AD…Women and children were possessions then, and are being treated as possessions now (but they would never admit it).
I’m pro-life but feel if you have to sneak things by people then it makes you a bit slimy.
Yep. This is excellent. If they can save babies’ lives by making it difficult for the purveyors of death, I’m all for it.
Abortion is a HUGE cash cow for PP. That’s the dirty little secret the libs don’t want you to know. Force these merchants of death (who also get a big chunk of taxpayer money thanks to the Democrats) to pay through the nose. I guarantee if you could take the profit out of it, PP wouldn’t be nearly so interested in “women’s health”.
Dan
Why should abortion clinics be exempt from safety standards that apply to all surgical facilities? Because of politics, these facilities have been shielded from basic infection control standards that the public demands.
Clearly, the Cobbs are pushing this for political reasons….but these safety and infection control standards should have been applied to abortion clinics a long time ago.
There is always a conflict when one side runs roughshod over the other, no matter the issue. This smells but who is surprised. Kick people when they are down could be our freaking state motto. Thanks Planned Parenthood for being there for women, reproductive choice and health. No one is pro-abortion, but we all live in the real world not the fantasy land some moralize from.
Kudos to the Roanoke clinics for being built and maintained to higher standards.
What’s the purpose of the architectural standards in place in other medical facilities? Would you argue that a Carilion clinic shouldn’t have to meet these standards?
Regarding the Family Foundation:
“The organization seeks to establish through citizen advocacy and enactment of Virginia law a safe, prosperous and wholesome climate for families.”
This organization spends a ton of resources trying to achieve their agenda through political means. It seems to me that a better way to fulfill their stated purpose would be to start a clinic that offers the same educational, medical, and crisis prevention services as Planned Parenthood, but wouldn’t offer abortions. These services are critical in lowering the rate of unplanned pregnancies and the spread of STDs. A lower rate of unplanned pregnancies means a lower rate of abortions. Lead by example.
No one is pro-abortion
PP is. They reap #100 million a year from them. That’s why they’re all in.
As Gomer Pyle used to say, “Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!!”
Yeah, that Catholic college president doesn’t like abortions interfered with.
#5 Terps, some of the standards being proposed have nothing to do at all with infection control and instead have everything to do with closing down all places where women can get abortions. I’m sure you know this. There are also clinics that are NOT classified as hospitals. And unless I’m mistaken, even abortions done with a pill are essentially being classified as “surgery.”
It’s interesting to me that the Supreme Court that rule on Roe v. Wade was populated by justices appointed by 5 U.S. presidents. Those opposed to the decision, Justices White and Rehnquist, were appointed by Pres. Kennedy and Nixon respectively. Those in favor, Justices Blackmun (who wrote the decision), Burger, Powell were nominated by Pres. Nixon. Justice Douglas was nominated by Pres. Roosevelt and Justice Marshall was nominated by Pres. Johnson. Justices Brennan and Stewart were nominated by Pres. Eisenhower. Two conservative Republican presidents appointed 5 justices who joined in the approving opinion. One of the two opposing justices was appointed by a liberal Democratic president. Isn’t it amazing.
Next on the Republican to-do list?
Pastor Compares Atheists To “Terrorists, Sex Offenders,” Suggests National Registry
Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/pastor-compares-atheists-to-terrorists-sex-offenders-suggests-national-registry.html#ixzz1WcAJnlCn
“No one is pro-abortion” i disagree with that statement. I have friends that are up in arms anytime anyone goes after making abortions illegal or tries to tighten regulations and they give the perception that its a form of “out” for them (younger 22-30 year olds). Not saying that it is, that’s just to me what it sounds like with their arguments. But i think i get what you’re trying to say.
terps,
Infection control is part of the regs, but it’s not the part that anyone’s taking issue with. If that was the only change to state regs regarding abortion clinics, nobody would be complaining. The issue is the architectural guidelines, which are prospective (designed for construction of new hospitals) that by virtue of this law are being imposed retroactively on existing clinics. Their hallways must be at least 5 feet wide. Their procedure rooms must have at least 250 square feet. There must be 8 feet of space outside the door of procedure rooms. The number and type of toilets and sinks. Certain kinds of air handling and electrical systems. That’s what’s going to cost the big money, and what could force closure of many, if not all of these clinics.
I wonder, if you’re in favor of these measures for abortion clinics, what about dental offices? Surgery of various kinds occurs in those. Should the law require dental offices where root canals, wisdom-tooth extractions, or dental implants are performed to have procedure rooms that are a minimum of 250 square feet?
Obviously a dental office needs hallways that are wide enough to accommodate two gurneys passing each other. As does an abortion clinic.
@#14 I also know people who, when arguing in favor of making abortion illegal, give the perception that they want promiscuous women to be punished for their immoral behavior by suffering the “consequence” of having to raise the child they produced. Those arguments make me question the true motives of some in the pro-life movement as well. Not all, but some. I’ve heard those same arguments on this blog and the RT blog.
“It was amended Monday on the House floor by Del. Kathy Byron, R-Campbell County, to classify clinics that perform at least five first trimester abortions per month as “hospitals” and to direct the health board to come up with regulations for such facilities within 280 days of the law’s effective date.”
That’s all you have to read to understand what is happening here. As Dan mentioned, if this was legitimately a health and safety issue, the regulations would cover all outpatient surgery centers such as oral surgery, plastic surgery, etc.
Wake up VA. If you keep electing religious nutjobs to office, you are going lose more than just abortion rights.
I appreciate that Uptheriver! Anyone who is rabidly pro-choice is still not pro-abortion IMO. People who feel others are “inferior”, “do not deserve” and eugenics crap like that may well be pro-abortion for certain people but that is another kettle of stinky fish. I hate that anyone gets in that position but I am also well aware that it is not always a choice and it is not always something that should not be done. The operative for me is choice. As long as it is the choice of the woman involved it is no one else’s business.
The reason Planned Parenthood and clinics like it exist is not for “killing babies” it is because things happen and some pregnancies should be able to be terminated for some reasons. Most especially in the early “morning after pill” stages and before life is potentially sustainable.
Re: Margaret Sanger:
“Her mother, Anne Purcell Higgins, was a devout Catholic who went through 18 pregnancies (with 11 live births)before dying of tuberculosis and cervical cancer. Margaret, the sixth of eleven children, pointed to her mother’s frequent pregnancy as the underlying cause of her premature death. Margaret Higgins sought to escape what she viewed as a grim class and family heritage.” This was the beginning of what is now Planned Parenthood and for the millions upon millions of poor women with no choice whatsoever this was the sad help and hand up they needed and IMO deserved. It is simply not a decision ANYONE else on earth should make for you, make harder for you or browbeat and insult you over.
O how quickly the right embraces evil government regulation when it suits him. Which just goes to prove my point..we have no real “small government” advocates on here.
Dan
You like regulations when they go after Wall Street, “BIG OIL”, or any other demonized enemy of the left.But when they go against your ideological pets, you sound like an anti-regulatory tea party member.
These regulations are ridiculous for EVERYONE in health care. I have a friend who owns a surgery center who was mandated to have fire sprinklers installed OUTSIDE his building under a portico… RETROACTIVLEY.
It took an abortion clinic for you to see the frustration felt by all of us in business trying to meet onerous, arbitrary and vindictive regulations. It seems sometimes that the government wants us to go out of business.
“It seems to me that a better way to fulfill their stated purpose would be to start a clinic that offers the same educational, medical, and crisis prevention services as Planned Parenthood, but wouldn’t offer abortions.’
They won’t, because what they’re after has nothing to do with their “stated purpose”. If an organization has the word “Family” in its name, you know right away it has nothing to do with actual families.
I would say people are “pro-abortion” in much the same way they’re “pro-mastectomy”. Unhappy events that need to be limited as much as possible but need to be available in the unhappy event they’re needed.
terps,
I don’t believe infection control regulations are ridiculous. Nor do I believe laws against Ponzi schemes are ridiculous. Those are regulations, too.
And you LIKE so-called tort reform that caps damages in lawsuits. That’s government regulation on the little guy, and you like that a lot.
With regard to the sprinklers — were the regulations that required those from the Virginia Department of Health? Or was it a building code thing?
Tort reform is a regulation? I think that is a stretch.
My friend has a surgery center in Tennessee. After it was built, the state inspectors mandated fire sprinklers be placed outside under the driveway portico. He wrote an article in a trade magazine about the experience. It cost him a fortune. Here it is:http://www.ophmanagement.com/article.aspx?article=103810
Unless you own a business, it is hard to understand the ridiculous and silly world of government regulations that we deal with. This abortion clinic dust up just gives you a glimpse of what we deal with every day.
Supporting regulation, oversight and responsibility does not mean you support intimidation and yes, business limiting regulation to stop an activity you do not like. There is a difference whether some want to admit it or not. The mere fact that liberals are against it and Conservatives are for it is a red flag but beyond that, it is still obvious what this regulation seeks and why.
Of course tort reform is regulation. It’s regulation that protects big business from the little guy seeking redress for a wrong.
53,000,000 Murders…Oh wait I meant to say abortions in this country since Roe v. Wade.
Yes, I wanted to write the number out so all of you could see it.
That is how many HUMANS didn’t get to have a chance at life in this country.
Here is a thought for the “LEFT”… wouldn’t it be nice to have all of those PEOPLE alive and contributing to society and paying taxes.
Anything to stop the Holocaust!
WOW terps, why did Tennessee Governor Don Sundquist allow such burdensome regulations in his state?
Government is a much bigger bully to the “little guy” than any big business I have ever dealt with. Just ask your abortion clinic friends. How do they feel about what the government is doing to them? (also, read the fire sprinkler article.)
I am a new grandfather and I can tell you after holding this precious baby in my arms, abortion is simply legalized murder. Case closed, no further argument. Aren’t you glad you were not aborted?
terps@5..
Possibly. You can argue that such facilities provide less stringent level of care…. but wouldn’t that best be determined by evidence in which lapses in care are documented? The assumption of this legislation assumes a substandard level of care. I haven’t seen that born out by allegations from women who choose these services.
Honestly, I hope that somehow these grinning clowns do make it somehow illegal to have abortions in Virginia, so that once and for all, it will be proven that where abortions are banned, that welfare, wic, and foodstamp recipients are on the increase, and as a result, crime will go up, and ultimately, education and the economy will suffer for it.
There has to be a way to quantify it.
Realistically though, PP can always just set up shop over the border, then re-define their business plan to not provide abortions in VA, but provide other health care services, (in accordance with this backdoor bull-excrement) and simply provide a low cost, safe shuttle service to a legal clinic in Maryland, North Carolina or West Virginia.
scott, then Virginia would outlaw the shuttles from Va. health clinics to abortion-performing clinics in other states.
“It seems sometimes that the government wants us to go out of business.”
Not exactly, but close. Everything is skewed in favor of the BIG businesses – you see politicians in the paper riding around with Wells Fargo, but not with the guy who has a taxi service with 3 cabs.
If PP is gone, then surely the mega hospital Carilion will make more money…. follow the money.
Where there is a will, there will be a way. Period.
Richard Newton, if it would have made my mother’s life easier or even less hard I would have been happy to have been aborted. I am also hoping that I will be allowed to decide when I leave this world and not be a burden on anyone as well.
Comparing the birth of a wanted baby (congratulations!) to an aborted fetus is not a fair comparison IMO. There are so very few late term and abortions (something like 1 percent or less) and they are not done for casual reasons. Having a family means not wanting them to suffer and if having an unplanned pregnancy (or being raped) happens, a woman should have the right to end that pregnancy within a window of time and it should not be anyone else’s business.
If this was about safety, why does it not apply to all clinics offering abortion? What is magical about five per year? Common sense dictates that higher volume clinics likely have a lower rate of complications than those who only complete the procedure a handful of times per year. It’s clearly aimed at reducing the volume of the procedure. Luckily, conservatives who’s daughters get knocked up will still be able to get their “corrective” procedures done at low-key facilities that fit the loophole Del. Byron created.
What we really need are more restrictive regulations on the clinics that have performed the lobotomies of folks like Del. Byron, Suzie, and others who work so tirelessly to make life hard for other people to promote their own sense of self-esteem.
So sueing McDonald’s because their coffee was too hot and asking for 1.35 to 2.7 million in punative damages is the little guy seeking redress for a wrong.
Mike scott
With all due respect, you obviously do not work in health care. Regulations are not specific for each specialty. Surgical facilities have blanket regulations that all facilities must adhere to. Therefore, a GI center perfoming colonoscopies(ie”dirty) will have the same regulations as a surgery center performing plastic surgery or eye surgery(ie. “clean”).
As crazy as it sounds, it is very true. Many millions(probably billions) are wasted because of it.
Abortion clinics cannot play by a seperate set of rules. Otherwise, all specialties would demand the same treatment and the resources neccessary to deal with it do not exist.
Dang, Virginians have so many abortions that we would need shuttles?
I love reading about conservatives supporting more government regulations on private businesses.
Besides…Why would conservative Christians want safer facilities at PP. When their daughters get knocked up they go to a gynecological doctors office that takes care of these “issues” discretely and doesn’t have to live up to these standards because they don’t keep records of these things.
It looks like an obvious conflict of interest to me. And the regulations are patently unfair and discriminatory. The state must treat all clinics the same way. If they are going to enforce these onerous regulations as if the clinics were hospitals, they must also enforce them for clinics that do Lasik, plastic surgery, dental surgery, etc.
#27, I am sure those 53M people would have enjoyed trying to make it in a country that is rapidly being given over to the corporations and the rich, where their personal freedoms are more suspect than ever thanks to the war on terror, that if they were born to moms the wrong skin color theirs would be an even steeper uphill climb, that as completely defenseless little kids they won’t realize that the social welfare nets that would help their moms raise them to be healthy and strong are being stripped away, where their chance at a good education in public schools is being eroded in the name of lower taxes, where their mom’s chance at care and education involving female reproduction is being made inaccessible-
and that all this is perpetrated upon the society by the same people that are willing to take away in any way they can the lawful right their mother’s have to control their own reproductive processes.
Peter J,
That was a little old lady seeking redress for a wrong, and she got it. It was horribly distorted by the media, but that case was decided in her favor (for much less).
terps,
what about dental clinics?
#37 You should read up on this case and see what really happened.
“scott, then Virginia would outlaw the shuttles from Va. health clinics to abortion-performing clinics in other states.”
If they did this through the same method… they’d also have to outlaw the SuperShuttle from BWI to DCA or IAD, and many other intrastate courier services. I don’t see THAT happening.
Dang, Virginians have so many abortions that we would need shuttles?
Comment by Walker — August 31, 2011 @ 1:01 pm
Walker, that’s exactly my point, the number of abortions handled is probably low enough to tack on what would amount to maybe a $100 round trip shuttle service (paying for gas/driver and care) to the cost of providing an abortion. This cost could easily be subsidized by pro-choice lobbying groups.
Here’s a link to the McDonald’s Coffee Case.
The most interesting thing about this case was the victim offered to settle for $20,000. Her medical bills, estimated future medical bills and time lost from work totalled $18,000.
McDonalds was willing to pay only $800. So the case proceeded to court.
The bottom line is that McDonalds could have gotten out of it for peanuts, but they chose to fight rather than admit their coffee was too hot (they later admitted that, and lowered the temperature).
The lady suffered 3rd degree burns on 6 percent of her body, and was treated for more than a year.
My mother is very, you might even say rabidly, pro-choice.
She has been pregnant three times in her life. The first time she was fifteen years old. The second time she was in the process of separating from her husband and had moved to another state. The third time was an equally inconvenient and difficult situation.
Given that my sister, myself, and my brother are all here today, I think it’s safe to say that she is NOT pro-abortion. She CHOSE to have all three of us, even though she legally had the choice to make a different decision.
My own pregnancy, even though I was married, was unplanned and came at a very difficult time. Did I choose to have an abortion? Well, it’s not someone else’s daughter I’m helping to prepare to start 5th grade next week.
Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. Pro-choice simply means that you believe the choice should exist….it does not define what choice you would make.
The unfortunate aspect that no one seems to be addressing is that by closing the facilities where a woman can get a relatively-safe, clean procedure you won’t be ending the procedure from happening altogether. It will force women with unwanted pregnancies to turn to unsafe, unregulated, (likely unsanitary) facilities – the infamous “back alley abortions.” Fewer abortion clinics doesn’t mean saving unborn babies, it means endangering pregnant women.
Ken, I had not thought of that, good point!
JohnP #42, excellent post! Bravo and thanks!!
What kind of world do we live in when there are people that want hard-working wealthy people to be forced to give their money to less-hard-working people?
What kind of world do we live in when there are people who believe killing babies should be considered appropriate and okay?
John P
Unreal you can ignore the part about murder and turn it into a “Why can’t America just be socialist” comment.
So to you its much better someone to DIE, than be raised up in a country where we don’t have taxes high enough so the government can take care of us.
You should write a book titled.. “America: Why we should kill the unborn because the government won’t help raise them.”
Here is everyone’s inconvenience: We shouldn’t have inconveniences..
http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/Stages/Images/Cst800.jpg
Let’s elect more Republicans and see how many rights they can take away!
Actually, the more I think about it, the more it is brilliant.
All this time, the Right Wingers are claiming what a “business” Planned Parenthood is… Well, let’s treat it like a business.
By shuttering surgical operations in Virginia, the overhead and insurance savings would more than cover a shuttle service and possible hotel stay for a courier (say a physicians assistant) to take a woman seeking an abortion over to Maryland for the service. The added load to other state’s Planned Parenthood clinics could be made up by relocating doctors who have lost their positions with PP in VA. (Oh, wait, another unintended consequence. I thought Republicans wanted to create jobs?)
The monies paid will leave the state and into the coffers of others. That’s fine by me. (We don’t need those dirty abortionists money anyhow, as long as God is on our side, right?)
Oh how the Right Wing Hypocrisy knows no bounds. The people who came out of the woodwork and screamed until their faces were red and bulging with veins complaining about how banning smoking in restaurants was a “PROPERTY RIGHTS” issue and not a health issue and how Government should LEAVE BUSINESS ALONE, are the EXACT SAME ONES who are screaming that the Government should get more involved with this supposed “Business” (Their Claim, not mine).
Well which is it going to be? Do you want More Gov’t Involvement, or Less? You can’t have more gov’t involvement when it comes to abortion and less when it comes to your neighborhood bar! You can’t have more gov’t involvement when you want your streets plowed from snow, but less gov’t involvement when you don’t want to pay for it.
The exact same shady backdoor legal method is being used to shutter abortion clinics as they used to eliminate smoking in restaurants. “Oh, it’s ok to have smoking in restaurants, but you have to follow these rigid governmental guidelines for HVAC systems.” Exactly the same.
You people make me very sad with the lack of foresight you have on debating your own talking points. Supporting this action is supporting your own Hypocrisy.
I think women have rights and we all know politics is a GAME…if you, prochoice, want to beat the pro-life people, here is a clue – KEEP YOUR LEGS TOGETHER? I dont want your unwanted baby being paid for by my taxes either, just stop being a tramp and use condoms…it is the easiest solution _ and yes there are situations where there are women in different situations, and as such should be treated differently, but those NASTIES who want to spread leg and not be responsible…please..stop killing little babies…get over it already. You people sicken me…oh women need rights… UM WE HAVE RIGHTS>..U have the right to keep ur legs together and get a job and stop milking the system to death
Wow. I wonder how prevalent Smart – One’s attitude is.
RichardNewton, congrats on your grandchild, but your personal epiphany isn’t of interest to anyone else.
If you don’t want an abortion, don’t get one. It’s very telling that the most frothing anti-choicers on here are men. I don’t see them even getting a vote, but whatever.
“55.Let’s elect more Republicans and see how many rights they can take away!”
No kidding. Maybe this episode will wake people up to the sort of country the GOP would visit on us. Incrementally taking control of our lives, one “regulation” at a time.
And we don’t need “tort reform”. We need fewer torts.
“if you, prochoice, want to beat the pro-life people,”
Check Roe UnSmart-One. We already did.
Does anyone really think an unborn child isn’t a human being? Is it just that some human beings are better than others?
Abortion hurts everyone: the child (boy or girl, black or white, gay or straight), the mother, the father, the abortionists, the community, all of us.
It’s the destruction of human life any way you look at it, and fictional “rights” don’t make it good or moral. There’s no such thing as a “necessary evil.”
Scott
Democrats got the smoking in restaurants going…Tobacco Farmers are all GOP.
Well then, we are even Smart – ONE. You “sicken me” too.
Smart – One
hehe, ironic name really.
The important thing here is that we focus on the goal…keeping abortions SAFE, legal and rare in Virginia…right?
This is just a “starting point” to that.
We gotta make sure these women get into these facilities SAFELY and are able to dispose of their would-be children in a manner that won’t “unintentionally” harm them…or the baby…uh, I mean, fetus (At least not until they cut it into tiny pieces and suck it out with a Shop-Vac)
Let’s just see how it works…then we can make changes later.
———
Huffington Post?
Really?
Comment by Doug S. — August 31, 2011 @ 7:31 am
What kills me are the other services for women that will suffer with this stupid regulation(s). Also, though they deny it and claim all this hooey about health care, it all comes down to a book that the two pictured above claim faith in (and others). But the Man himself they follow never spoke about abortion. And the rest of the Book was put together by MEN in the late 300′s AD…Women and children were possessions then, and are being treated as possessions now (but they would never admit it).
I understand services being affected but to say, and I quote you: “Also, though they deny it and claim all this hooey about health care, it all comes down to a book that the two pictured above claim faith in (and others). But the Man himself they follow never spoke about abortion
—According to the Bible not all killing is murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of a human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings and not to animals. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4).
We’re going back to the days of the witch trials. Honestly Republicans, what else do you wish to take away from United States citizens? Is there just going to be one religion or denomination for this country?
Well, didn’t Mr. Casey just try and trick pro-life people into sending their support to the state against the current proposal.
Refer to your last 2 sentence: “The proposed standards are up for public comment now. The state Board of Health will vote on them Sept. 15. You can offer your input by clicking here.”
One would think you are clicking into a link that the state has set up for accepting public opinion, but NO…..you’re getting ready to sign a letter OPPOSING the regulations from the Coalition for Women’s Health (a pro-abortion group).
I am not going to comment on this article at all, I think it’s clearly leading and slanted to a pro-abortion stance. However, I think you should be ASHAMED of yourself for trying to trick people into signing up under that link you gave.
#53 we spend a heck of a lot more money killing people in wars than assisting poor Americans, including in reproductive services. Why is it the fetus is so incredibly important to the same people who are glad to send young adults off to war just to make a political point? Is that why the war-loving right wants as many kids to be born as is possible no mater what the circumstances?
And Dan, I am sure Smart-ONE is always out there speaking against the objectification of women and the sexifying of teens and little girls. With a supportive attitude like that, social change for the positive can’t be far behind.
This is not an issue of liberal vs conservative. It is an issue of moral conscience and the role of government in protecting innocent lives.
If a woman is driving to an abortion clinic to “have her pregnancy terminated” dies in a fatal car wreck the driver of the other car if at fault is subject to be charged with 2 counts of manslaughter. If however she arrives at the clinic safely, the “doctor” can “terminate” the baby and we call it procedure. Is the thing inside that woman alive or not? If not why the manslaughter charge? If it is alive how does anyone, including the woman (mother) have the right to “terminate” it?
If the woman does give birth and drops the baby in a saline solution to kill it, that’s called murder. What’s the difference? A month? Two months? four months? six months? a minute?
What about that child’s (who has been sucking its thumb ib its mothers belly) right to live?
Isn’t it a major role of government to protect the most innocent and vulnerable among us. What is more innocent and vulnerable that an unborn baby.
Most of you defenders of abortion would want to crucufy someone who dug up a sea turtle nest and crushed the eggs. Am I right? Why sacrifice unborn humans on the altar of “womens” rights?
An obvious conflict of interest with the Cobbs’. I haven’t seen anyone else comment here on this, but does anyone here see the irony in the fact that in this country 99.9% of all legislation and laws regarding abortion is written and passed by men? They (the men) should be able to do so as soon as they are able to pass a baby through the head of their penis. A woman’s decision to abort a child should be between herself, her God and her healthcare provider and no one else. This backdoor BS attempt to shut down most of these clinics is just another example of how politicians are busy playing god in the lives of people they don’t have a clue about. I personally don’t approve of abortion, but the decisions a woman makes with her body, life and the life of her unborn child is just that….HERS!
This was never about women’s health and always about restricting access to abortion. Why the deception? Because most Virginians, like most people across America, think abortion should be an option for women and a personal health decision. Since they claim to represent the people (all the people, not just anti-abortion people, they cleverly passed the law on false pretenses. No, covered entryways and double-wide halls are not necessary for outpatient clinics. This has NOTHING to do with women’s health, proving that politicians can be sneaky and deceptive… surprise, surprise.
Outdoor sprinklers? Wonder if the Gov’t knows how expensive systems like that are. You can’t just run the pipes and be done with it because the pipes will freeze in winter. You got to put some crazy-expensive (and not terribly reliable “double-solenoid” system in there that pressurizes the outdoor parts with AIR so they won’t freeze, break and spread ice on the very area the government regulators (in their infinite wisdom) were trying to make “safe”. Bust thine hine, anyone?
Mr. Casey,
Maybe Smart-One could have said it nicer, but yes, these women do have a choice NOT to go around having sex without protection. Why should the rest of us have to pay for something that contraception could have handled? Whether or not YOU agree with it, ABSTININCE IS A CHOICE.
Let me share with you some public accounting information regarding Planned Parenthood in the Roanoke and New River Valleys:
- 2.8% of funding comes from federal, state, or local grants or contracts
- No public funds are used to provide, advertise, or lobby for abortions
- 6% of medical services are for abortions
- More than 95% of client services (medical and education) provided are preventative
Shutting down Planned Parenthood clinics stops abortions. Good for you, right-wingers, I guess you win. But what about the 95% of patients seen there that AREN’T there for abortions? What about the young girls that are trying to get on birth control to prevent having to have an abortion in the first place?
These requirements are okay in theory, and I actually agree that centers that do procedures should meet certain safety and medical codes. But to attack abortion providers, even abortion providers that don’t do surgical procedures (the medication abortion option is begun in the clinic and finished up in the privacy of the patient’s own home), merely to advance your own agenda, isn’t helping the millions of men and women that are trying to do the right thing for themselves and their future families.
I’ve met more than one Pro-lifer/Anti-abortionist who changed their mind after they or a loved one was raped.
I guarantee if these new “patient health and safety” standards are approved there will be a court challenge. There probably will be an injunction, and ultimately (hopefully) a ruling that they are discriminatory. It’s a sneaky way of trying legislate the moral preferences into the health field, which ought to be a worrisome precedent for anyone (liberal or conservative) who claims to be for limited government, personal freedom, patient responsibility and privacy, and medical professionalism.
If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one!!
Abortion is a medical procedure and no one else’s business except the patient involved – just like penile implants, vasectomies, and rhinoplasty. Where I’m from – all the girls who found themselves “knocked up” at age 14 simply got a “D&C” and life went on. I don’t know why our citizens get so worked up over something that’s simply none of their business. It’s too bad that government has to intervene to guarantee our rights: racial equality (Civil Rights Act), reproductive choice (Roe vs. Wade), life-saving medical care for seniors (Medicare), life-saving income for retired seniors (Social Security), free school lunch for impoverished children, food for poor people (food stamps), and medical care for poor people (Medicaid).No one has the right to come between me and my uterus. Those nuts in Richmond are clowns. Even “anti-abortion” nut case and presidential candidate Rick Santorum had his testicles to the wall when he had to admit that his wifey-pooh had to have an abortion to “save her life.” Yawn…
Gotta love the mostly-male pro-life movement.
Its always easier to point at the sins of others than to admit ones on faults.
#57 OMG, Dan, look what you’ve drawn out now.
Too prevalent……
Unhappy events that need to be limited as much as possible but need to be available in the unhappy event they’re needed.
I believe that was the rationalization for the gas chambers.
O how quickly the right embraces evil government regulation when it suits him. Which just goes to prove my point..we have no real “small government” advocates on here.
Conservatives have always believed government has two purposes only, the chief of which is to protect its citizens from physical harm. We are 100% consistent on that, kitten.
Well which is it going to be? Do you want More Gov’t Involvement, or Less? You can’t have more gov’t involvement when it comes to abortion and less when it comes to your neighborhood bar! You can’t have more gov’t involvement when you want your streets plowed from snow, but less gov’t involvement when you don’t want to pay for it.
OK, once again. The two jobs of government are to protect its citizens and to maintain infrastructure. That’s it. Nothing else. Protecting it’s most defenselss people and plowing snow from roads falls into these categories.
Leftwingers just seem unable to think rationally. You explain stuff to them repeatedly, then they keep coming up with the same whining comments.
Wow, Dan. What a mean spirited slant you’ve got there. From the first line you’re on the attack while you’re using the ultra left wing huffington post as some sort of a respectable news agency as one of your proof sources.
There’s a reason why I don’t waste my money on the Roanoke Times though i live in Glenvar.
Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. Pro-choice simply means that you believe the choice should exist….it does not define what choice you would make.
Wrong. As long as abortion is allowed to be one of the “choices” then pro-choice is tantamount to pro-abortion.
To illustrate, et’s switch the argument to rape. Even though you yourself obviously oppose rape, would you say rape should be among the choices offered a man should he want to perpetrate it? Of course you wouldn’t. Rape is a violent act against another human being. And so is abortion. It shouldn’t be an option for the same reason.
Besides…Why would conservative Christians want safer facilities at PP. When their daughters get knocked up they go to a gynecological doctors office that takes care of these “issues” discretely and doesn’t have to live up to these standards because they don’t keep records of these things.
Wow. What a twisted world-view these leftwingers have. They think everyone behaves as they do.
Wow… #57 is one of the most misogynist comments I’ve read. 1) Women of all reproductive ages, all income levels, and all racial/ethnic groups have unplanned pregnancies. I would bet that some of those unplanned pregnancies happened even with some level of contraceptive use. This comment also is ridiculous in light of the entire debate — should clinics that provide abortions be regulated like hospitals when level of procedure is more equal to that of a dental surgery clinic. My thoughts about the regulations — more ridiculousness aimed at people who are also being shamed and degraded by comments like #57 and are less likely to be married to officials in the state government.
Sadly this will not end abortions. It will just mean a return to the very poor and dangerous methods that were used prior to women being able to obtain LEGAL abortions. Most of the people who create the roadblocks to a woman having a medically safe
abortion are too young to remember when it was not uncommon for severe infection, infertility and even death could be the result of a badly botched back-alley procedure. Just as a judge is not allowed to take part in a trial when he has a personal interest in the outcome the husband of the woman who is the state’s most avid anti-abortion voice should not have a say in the outcome of this vote.
Hi Mary, thanks for the comment. Welcome to the blog.
Do you support the increased availability of contraception?
#49 VT Hokie: “Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. Pro-choice simply means that you believe the choice should exist….it does not define what choice you would make.”
Well said VT. In a perfect world, in which we quite clearly do not live, all children would be conceived and born under ideal conditions. Adolescent hormones often override the best of intentions, sometimes contraceptives do not work or are used improperly and at other times poor judgment, or lack thereof, is responsible. At other times the perspective parents’ situation changes. The simple fact of the matter is is that one thing we humans do a lot of is fornicate. I’ve often thought that our innate drive to fornicate is too strong (yes I said that!) and arrives too early in our lives. I’m sure studies show that the offspring of children have a much more difficult time coping with the rigors of life and have a much higher rate of say criminality and drug abuse, to pick a couple consequences. To remove the option of abortion to those folks I think is a big mistake.
#56 Scott, I agree. Conservatives love to recite their less government mantra but beg big brother to come to their aid when it helps their causes. Funny how that works…
“- 6% of medical services are for abortions
- More than 95% of client services (medical and education) provided are preventative”
Thank you medical assistant for some useful information, not that it will matter much to our American Taliban.
It’s not about “life” with them…it’s about wanting to control women. Does anyone seriously believe they really give a fig about women and children’s health? Give me a break.
More middle aged white men telling women what they can and can’t do with their own bodies.
jr911,
You make a fair point. I’ve deleted that link and substituted the email address for the VDH’s office of Licensure and Certification of Healthcare Facilities.
Yes Tim S, in this situation, it is “that some human beings are better than others” if that is the way you need to look at it. Solomon is no longer king and people have to make the best decisions they can in any situation they find themselves in. Whether that is how to reply to the crass likes of Smart minus One or an unwanted or problem pregnancy.
Who are YOU to decide which life is more important? Who is ANYONE to make that decision for any woman? This “holier than thou” over a potential life (never a guaranteed one) and forcing a woman to carry a child she does not want/cannot handle, will not be able to care for, knows will have a severe disability or was the result of incest or rape is beyond “casting the first stone”! And is just as immoral as the decision and procedure you are all complaining about while also complaining about being “forced” to help mothers who do choose life. It is not your decision and it never should be unless it is your womb.
The vast majority of abortions are done before the first trimester is up. That is a fetus, it is not sustainable life outside the womb and that proves that women are being as responsible as they can with the surprise pregnancies after they happen. Kicking them when they are down might help vent your spleen but it will never make a fetus live to be a baby or prevent a pregnancy from happening. Much of the work that Planned Parenthood does will.
“- 6% of medical services are for abortions
- More than 95% of client services (medical and education) provided are preventative”
We’ve busted the hell out of this “stat” before. Cited directly from PP which counts distribution of a pamphlet as a “service”. Same as a $3000 abortion.
It’s very telling that the most frothing anti-choicers on here are men.
Kinda the same as receptionists blabbing about tax policy on the wealthy achievers, isn’t it?
I saw a bumper sticker that I liked, not too long ago:
I live Pro-Life / I support Pro-Choice
It really appealed to my somewhat social-libertarian values.
Abortion is a medical procedure and no one else’s business except the patient involved
Unless of course you’re the little baby who’s about to have it’s brains suctioned out.
#99 Speaking from experience?
DaveH, I saw a bumper sticker once that said….I’m pro-Choice Pro-Abortion, Pro-Adoption, Pro-Prenatal care.
I liked that one too.
This is a real question as I genuinely don’t know the answer.
I hear the phrase “women’s services” used a lot in connection with these clinics. Other than abortions, what kinds of services are offered? What do they cost? Where else are they available?
Thanks,
I saw a bumper sticker that I liked, not too long ago:
I live Pro-Life / I support Pro-Choice
Let’s use the same logic and see how these sound:
“He lives pro-woman. He supports rape.”
“He lives ant-woman-abuse. He supports wife-beating.”
“He lives pro-animal. He supports dog-fighting.”
Let’s try another one:
‘DaveH, I saw a bumper sticker once that said….I’m pro-Choice Pro-Abortion, Pro-Adoption, Pro-Prenatal care.
“I’m pro-choice. I support adoption. I support prenatal care. I support killing infants” Huh?
“I’m pro-choice. If you want to be nice to your kids, that’s fine. If you want to beat them to death, that’s fine”
Are y’all seeing the lunacy of the pro-abortion folks’ “logic” yet?
a potential life
It’s a living human being from the moment of conception. There is absolutely no debate about that. Now you’re left with the reality that abortion is KILLING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING. And this is where the true hideous evil nature of leftwingers gets exposed: You know it and you don’t care.
Hey Rob,
http://www.plannedparenthood.org
click on services.
This google search took less than 5 seconds. You can go there and get checked out for prostate, testicular, or colon cancer.
THE HORROR!
Roe v. Wade is law. So get over it and abide by our laws or get the f out case close.
I have to wonder what Victoria and Matt Cobb would do if they found themselves in a situation where the child she was carrying was going to be born severely handicapped and not expected to live outside the womb, and she developed complications during pregnancy (let’s say, pre-eclampsia, placental abruption) wherein her life was also at high risk. So, they are faced with 1)a baby that will not survive outside the womb, & 2)giving birth to this child will probably kill her. What choice would they make?
Of course tort reform is regulation. It’s regulation that protects big business from the little guy seeking redress for a wrong.
Oh, the “little guy” huh? So where do the leftwing trial lawyers get their mansions and SUVs? From the tooth fairy? Could we be honest? The trial lawyers are leeches enabled by their government cronies to steal from hard-working private businesses.
Damn, I was in the mood for some bitch slappin, but it looks like Suzi has pummeled y’all into your fall-back strategy of hysterical name calling and distortions.
Suzi, how much you wanna bet these 20+ libtards on this thread were raging that Casey Anthony got away with her real, real, real, real late term abortion?
And we’ll go double or nothing they are vehemently against the death penalty?
…And, “Ginny” has summed up the argument in 5 words: Roe v. Wade IS LAW. Ironically, all those holier-than-thou morons out there assigning “baby” status to a non-viable-outside-the-womb-fetus (defined in my medical book as the “tumor of pregnancy”)- seem to forget that Roe v. Wade constitutionally protects the PRIVACY of a woman undergoing a medical procedure – in this case, an abortion. Are those anti-abortion nuts going to start straining body fluids from used tampons and Kotex pads searching for those viable little eggs? How about used condoms and little spermies? Beeg yawn…
Wingers are all about protecting the unborn until they hit the floor, then it’s every man for himself. Spare me the faux outrage, just another hot- button issue in their God, guns and gays playbook.
Feel free to take over, Randall. I envy the skill with which you slap these clowns around. I’m going to bed.
#112 Oh boy, another right-wing misogynist to join Al. Somebody needs to quit lifting up the rocks out there.
Wingers are all about protecting the unborn until they hit the floor, then it’s every man for himself.
–From George Carlin’s “Back in Town” performance, Beacon Theater, New York City, 1996.
Every single one of the left’s abortion talking points come from that monologue. Imagine getting your marching orders from a man who was in rehab for alcohol and drug abuse a half dozen times in his life, the last coming at age 67. That dude really had his life together, huh? What a terrific guru/life coach you misfits chose.
“Wingers are all about protecting the unborn until they hit the floor, then it’s every man for himself. Spare me the faux outrage, just another hot- button issue in their God, guns and gays playbook.”
We take care of our own kids just fine.
It is a basic question-When do human beings receive the unalienable right to life?
I’m sort of thinking Art Hill and Carlin have a few things in common, except maybe money, fame, and talent.
Bring it on Randall, it is very apparent “bitch slappin” is all you are capable of. This from the man complaining of civility!
I’ll go “double or nothing” that which you complain about is all you got. SOSO.
If either of you righ”tard clowns” had any debate skills or even facts on your side, you might actually win one once in a blue moon. No danger, none at all. You are legends in your own minds only.
Suzie:
Since about one half of fertilized eggs are rejected and aborted, should we prosecute those women?
Should we track down the 15 – 20% of pregnant women who know they have naturally aborted a fetus?
Do we need to legislate against older women becoming pregnant because the risk of spontaneous abortion goes far higher?
Should we arrest pregnant women who smoke or are obese because the risk of spontaneous abortion is higher?
Should we use law enforcement assets to pursue the delinquent fathers of the unwanted children?
Do we use tax dollars to create support centers for the children that the mothers are unable to care for? Or perhaps the churches should be forced to provide the best of care?
Or should we fight against the back-door methods of conservatives to circumvent what has been decided to be legal even after challenges by the highest court of America?
What we should do is thank Dan for calling to our attention the conflict of interest inherent in any decision Cobb may have regarding women’s reproductive rights.
112, 115 “Damn, I was in the mood for some bitch slappin, but it looks like **** has pummeled y’all into your fall-back strategy of hysterical name calling and distortions.”
“Feel free to take over, Randall. I envy the skill with which you slap these clowns around. I’m going to bed.”
Oh my god, I just had to pick myself up off the floor I was laughing so hard. Seriously, I thought somebody had sucked all the oxygen out of the room. It’s a good thing I wasn’t eating or drinking anything.
Easily the fakest “exchange” I’ve ever seen on the Internet. Either that or a South Park Cartman routine. “Skill with which”? OMG!!!! Get over here, VRWC, you’re missing all the comedy!!!
“What about the young girls that are trying to get on birth control to prevent having to have an abortion in the first place?”
Dang, I guess that IS the only way to prevent getting pregnant… this coming from a ‘Medical Assistant’ too, dontcha know?
I hope that ‘Medical Assistant’, in all their infinite knowledge, doesn’t ever have to assist any doctor I go see.
I deleted a post that had a particularly vulgar reference that got past me. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, MMM
Back to the topic at hand. Having the husband of one of the most virulent oppoinents of abortion serving as one of the main arbiters for the establishment of these rules is a clear conflict of interest. It is grounds for a court challenge to the rules as well as the law. You can bet it will be challenged and the GA, Kathy Byron, Gov. McDonnell, and Ken Cuccinelli will suffer another embarrasswing defeat in court while
wasting the taxpayers money tilting at windmills.
“We take care of our own kids just fine”
It’s called the common good, RK. I realize it’s a foreign concept.
Thought to ponder (actually, just pointing out flawed logic)…
If the role of government is to protect all citizens and life begins at conception, why did Obama have to prove that he was BORN in the US? Shouldn’t he have had to prove that he was conceived in the US?
Why are they called “birthers” and not “conceptioners”?
To go along with that, why isn’t our age calculated from conception instead of that evidently inaccurate “birth-day”?
I’ll tell you why… Because life begins when a viable fetus leaves the womb and lives without the assistance of the mother. Life begins at birth.
Art, I give more money to charity/others than you probably make punching that clock. I’m just not into forcefully having my money confiscated by our government, so they can attempt to do it ineffectively. Have you ever been to the Municipal Building on “payday”? Only in America do the poor have cell phones, $150 sneakers, and are so malnourished they have weight problems. Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life.
gdad, I bet you were laughing. You see Suzie or Randall K’s name and you’re angry. The way she methodically tears down every stupid argument of you numbnuts, is amazing. If y’all weren’t so full of venom and lies, you’d see the light.
Sandi, I can take it. I know I’m not going to change anybody’s mind here at circlejerk.com, I tried to play nice, but I saw how it was done around here and I got no problem climbing down in the gutter with y’all, I shower often.
Which part of my post (#110) bothered you? The bitch slappin’ part, or the fact that you were really pissed that Casey Anthony got away with murder, when she is just a product of the liberal philosophy. She just gave herself a real, real, real, real late term abortion. What’s the problem with that?
And you probably are totally against the death penalty, which exposes your whole philosophy of life, Kill the innocent, protect the murderers. I think that bothers you when you are all alone, but when you come here and hang out with your like minded friends, you feel better about yourself.
That’s what Jesus did, right? He never gave out loaves or fishes. He taught then how to bake and cast, right?
Suzie and Randall
You can’t get through to these guys, THEY HAVE NO MORAL COMPASS.
If morality isn’t an issue to someone, you can’t get them to understand.
I wonder how their kids did, or will turn out?
Randall K, I dont think it bothers them at all. they are all for control over everything. they will even have their own children murdered by abortion if it is too much of an inconvenience.
#128 “I’m not going to change anybody’s mind here at circlejerk.com…”
Seriously, Dan?
Wingers are all about protecting the unborn until they hit the floor, then it’s every man for himself.
–From George Carlin’s “Back in Town” performance, Beacon Theater, New York City, 1996.
The only reason that some people get offended by that is due to the fact Carlin was 100% CORRECT in that statement.
#127 Uhhh, yeah, that’s the ticket, Randall. Getting angry makes me laugh. Lord, I can’t make this stuff up.
And I NEVER, EVER purposely lie on this blog. I leave that to certain trolls.
Randall, tone down the language . . . you ought to be able to get your thoughts across here with out all the slapping and jerking.
are all about protecting the unborn until they hit the floor, then it’s every man for himself.
–From George Carlin’s “Back in Town” performance, Beacon Theater, New York City, 1996.
The only reason that some people get offended by that is due to the fact Carlin was 100% CORRECT in that statement.
Nope Ken, it’s a crock of crap. Conservatives do more charitable giving, more adopting, and more taxpaying. The only thing liberals do more of is flap their gums.
“126.Art, I give more money to charity/others than you probably make punching that clock”
RandallK, I’m not clear who you think you are, or who you think you’re talking to, but I’m pretty sure you’re wrong on both counts.
And we’re never surprised to see the RWnutballs wallowing in the gutter, so really, no explanation needed.
And no one believes the RWers care about women or children. It’s laughable to even imagine.
I’ll tell you why… Because life begins when a viable fetus leaves the womb and lives without the assistance of the mother. Life begins at birth.
Really, Aaron? A couple of questions:
1. The fetus before it’s born; it’s either alive or dead. It has to be one or the other. If it’s growing, is it not alive?
2. What about a preemie that needs life support? Does your arbitrary definition make it a living person or no?
3. Who the EFF are you to arbitrarily assign a time when “life” is conferred, so that you are free to kill someone who hasn’t reached that stage? Are you God?
#133 Ken, I agree. The very ones who are stridently in favor of government intervention in a woman’s right to choose are also the ones opposed to any government assistance to the poor who do choose to have a child. That is some really twisted logic.
You can’t get through to these guys, THEY HAVE NO MORAL COMPASS.
You are correct. In the last debate on abortion, someone, not sure which of the identical threesome (Lynda, Lori, or Debbie) said it, but I believe one of them said she knows it’s a human life, but doesn’t care. And that sums it up. They know it’s a person they’re killing, but they don’t care. Rarely do leftwingers come out and admit it, though. Most of them try to justify the hideous act with the illogical arbitrary gyrations like Sandi and Aaron are doing.
Thankfully I am not burdened by your rigid parameters for intelligence Randall K. I can see the difference between a woman choosing to abort a potential life and a woman choosing to kill her toddler. I am not against the death penalty in any way except that it is arbitrary, bigoted and money sways it. In fact, I would widen the scope of death penalty crimes and be harder on criminals who hurt children than even your mind can imagine. You THINK you know so much but you prove with every post how little and small your mind and your vocabulary is.
I raised two children into wonderful tax paying adults who benefit society and are also caring, intelligent and open minded, which makes me much more successful than some of the parent’s efforts on display here.
“And no one believes the RWers care about women or children.”
I’d really like some kind of support that shows that. Utter nonsense.
Nope, Carlin was spot on, and it just kills some people to be be called out!
Walker, if I ever saw support from the right for things like WIC (which primarily benefits women and babiesS) or for that matter ANY program along those lines, I might change my mind.
Ultimately, we know why Right Wingers secretly want to outlaw abortions… Because candidates for abortion are usually poor and uneducated people. The Right Wing Agenda has always been to effectively enslave the poor while earning more and more money on their way to a plutocratic society.
Denying the poor the health care decision to abort a fetus will result in a greater burden on the poor and uneducated person, while also ensuring yet another wage slave on the right wing march to the top of the dung heap.
An advanced strategy would then be to rape and impregnate those people, since they can no longer have their fetuses aborted! So what if a few pregnant people off themselves. They don’t need strong-willed people in their plutocracy. They just need people!
That they choose to hide this strategy under the guise of their false “loving god” is truly the sick part. Just come out and admit what you’re trying to accomplish already!
#142 Next, walker demands proof from some of his/her right-wing buddies for their outrageous statements.
Crickets.
Kristen, my mother was an anti-abortion activist. She didn’t shout and scream or bomb, though. She volunteered at Birthright, enrolling mothers-to-be in nutrition programs, counseling them, and helping them make ends meet financially, because of the added cost of having a baby. That was her choice of “action” in the pro-life movement.
DanCasey, that sort of activity is what someone who genuinely values life should engage in. I’m willing to bet people who are pro-choice would do that sort of work too.
Standing around waving signs and harassing young women going into clinics doesn’t help a single mother or baby.
“Walker, if I ever saw support from the right for things like…”
That might actually mean something if you actually looked for it. Factual support says quite the opposite of what you claim. Here’s just one article about “Who Really Cares” by Arthur Brooks.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18218
@146 – Next gdad makes a quick, drive-by post in support of one of her/his left wing buddies who just stated something a.) absolutely false and b.) totally ignorant ends then it with “Crickets.”
@#147
I personally think that’s the action that all pro-life folks should take….it goes a lot farther toward accomplishing the goal of eliminating abortions. Women, especially young women, have abortions because they have no one to help and support them, and they feel helpless and scared, and in that fear they believe that it is the best option. If pro-life groups would take the money and resources that they put into political and lobbying tactics, and instead put the money and resources into creating support networks within communities (such as the one your mother was involved in), the results would be amazing.
As usual, the real point is lost on people while they call one another baby killer or woman hater.
Regardless of your view on abortion, this is an unethical situation that doesn’t even come close to passing the smell test. The law as proposed is obviously a back door attempt to put onerous regulation specifically on abortion providers with the intent of them being unable to comply. There is a clear conflict of interest with Mr. Cobb. If he were above board, he would have recused himself from participating in drafting any legislation with regard to abortion providers or simply declined the appointment to a post that would require him to do so.
For a thought experiment, let’s change abortion provider to gun dealer. The husband of the head of the Brady Campaign is appointed to a government post and suggests that all new handguns sold in the state must be capable of micro stamping. That doesn’t outlaw handguns, but it does effectively prevent the purchase of new handguns because there are none currently capable of micro-stamping. Defacto ban on the sale of new handguns.
Bottom line, if the ends justify the means, then you are going to be bummed when they come for the rights you care about. If you cannot get your desired result in a forthright manner, then you either have to work harder or come to grips with the fact that the majority of people want that right. Whatever your thoughts on abortion, this conflict of interest and sleight of hand is unacceptable.
Never heard the Carlin bit. Wingnuts believe (with the help of Fox or King Ditto) that nobody else can have an original idea. The truth hurts, they vehemently defend the unborn then cut funding for children’s education, nutrition and health care. Hypocrites. @RK, I’m self-employed, clocks don’t mean squat.
Walker, if any of the comments made by Conservatives regarding abortion seems like caring about women or children, I would appreciate it if you could point them out because I missed them in all the insults and name calling. Protecting and caring about children means more than just insisting they be born “I dont want your unwanted baby being paid for by my taxes either“, sound familiar? Protecting and caring about women means more than condemning them as murderers “abortion is KILLING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING” “THEY HAVE NO MORAL COMPASS” or comparing their supporters to Nazis; sound familiar? If you believe in the Bible and the words of Jesus Christ, he said “go and sin no more” not, stand there and let me stone you for your mistakes. Did he tell us anything about how to treat those who have fallen?
I know it is a talking point that wanting abortion to be safe and legal is the same as being “pro-abortion” but I will never accept that as true. It is agonizing to think that a woman feels she must choose that option, but I do not have the hubris to tell her she should not and I will fight to my last breath that no one else does either. Solomon is no longer King, we are on our own.
George Carlin’s bits live on because they were true, and that registered emotionally (laughter) when we heard him present them. That was because of his talent. He had faults, too. We all do. We’re human.
@#152
NRV, well said. It’s a shame few people will heed your words of wisdom
uh sandi, just because you condone the killing of innocent children, doesnt mean conservatives against abortions care less about them than you do…listen to yourself, sad.
pammala, what are your thoughts regarding a group like the one Dan mentioned, that puts their time, energy, and resources into creating a support system in their community to help girls and women with unplanned pregnancies? Do you think that is a better, more effective use of time and money, doing something that actually helps women and babies, than lobbying politicians and picketing abortion clinics?
Walker, just because a bunch of Republicans in the Bible Belt throw their money at evangelists doesn’t mean they’re more “charitable”. What nonsense.
VT Hokie,
Birthright helps not only women with unplanned pregnancies, but all women who need help with their pregnancies, unplanned or planned. Some folks have accused them of trying to rope in women considering abortions and changing their minds about it. They certainly are anti-abortion, but the main focus I’ve seen is helping women who’ve already decided not to.
Nope, Carlin was spot on, and it just kills some people to be be called out!
For some reason, I tend to dismiss stuff said by a guy who spent 30 years in and out of rehab.
George Carlin’s bits live on because they were true, and that registered emotionally (laughter) when we heard him present them.
You gotta think for a minute. What does it say about someone’s intelligence level who would pay fifty bucks to hear this drunk?
Kristen, my mother was an anti-abortion activist. She didn’t shout and scream or bomb, though. She volunteered at Birthright, enrolling mothers-to-be in nutrition programs, counseling them, and helping them make ends meet financially, because of the added cost of having a baby. That was her choice of “action” in the pro-life movement.
Somehow I doubt she was all that committed to pro-life. How then did her son become a pro-abprtion nut?
JohnP,
Since about one half of fertilized eggs are rejected and aborted, should we prosecute those women
If you notice, not even the whackjobs have jumped in with your silly attempt to equate natural death with wanton killing
and caring about children means more than just insisting they be born
Yes, Sandi loves children so much, she’ll kill them if necessary. Nothing creepy about that.
Suz.
#1- It’s a fetus. Is it capable of living on it’s own?
#2- Life support? Could it live without it? Are we playing God?
#3- See #2. If we’re going to play God we might as well go all out.
Aaron, is a baby that is 10 months old capable of living completely on its own??
Aaron when you get pregnant let us know. It is an unborn child. Killing it is murder.
oh yes, but save the whales, huh?
when you kill an unborn child, you are playing God.
#166 Aaron, there are some fundamental sects that believe you leave it completely up to “God” and refuse to get even something as basic as antibiotics. Some of these fanatics have been charged with child neglect or murder for letting a child die from something highly curable.
Yes Dan, “George Carlin’s bits live on because they were true”. It must seriously scald someone to be owned by a beloved comic they do not respect, but there it is.
The truth is here in this blog and in every other discussion where so called Conservatives show their true colors. It is frankly undeniable. Walker you just do not want to see it.
Are you folks seriously going to trot out Brooks for the rest of his life?
(Mark),
You completely ignored the obvious intent of my argument (but since it didn’t help your argument, it was in your best interest to ignore me). If a premature baby does not have fully developed lungs and is not capable of living without the use of a ventilator, that’s completely different than a 10 month old with fully developed lungs (or heck, even a 1 day old baby that was a full term fetus). My argument is similar to the decision in Roe v. Wade. A person has a right to abortion up until a fetus is viable outside of the womb.
I just chose to overstep my argument into the “playing God” realm to prove the point that the “playing God” argument is flawed logic considering we “play God” every day.
pammala,
The irony of your post is you seem to have a problem with me (as a male) saying there should be a choice, yet seem to not have a problem with predominatly male law makers restricting the available options. Whereas I feel that you would rather a predominatly male legislature restrict options if the alternative would be a predominately female legislature opt for the pro-choice movement.
You’re right. It is an unborn child… A child is also a born fetus. Inside the womb it’s one thing, outside the womb it’s another.
The concept of murder, or killing a living thing, is moot if the fetus you are killing is not capable of life outside of the womb.
And what is this whale crap you are blubbering about? You’re making assumptions that only succeeded in making you look like an ass.
gdad,
Very true, but my argument is based on the general concept of when do we stop “playing God”. I mean, the use of any modern medicine could be considered playing God, life support itself is playing God, dictating the time to remove someone from life support is also playing God. Even state sanctioned executions are “playing God”.
#1- It’s a fetus. Is it capable of living on it’s own?
Is a two-month old capable of living on it’s own? Don’t be a dimwit.
Are we playing God?
No, you are. You’re the one taking a human life and trying to justify it with your own arbitrary definition of life
.
Let me begin by saying that I do not, contrary to what some on this blog say, support abortion. Nor do I support public funding for abortion through Planned Parenthood, or any other agency. Let me add that my wife and I chose to have children later in life than was typical of people from our generation. We did so knowing the risks of what was referred to, by my wife’s physician, as geriatic pregnancies. We were blessed with three relatively “normal”, whatever that means, sons. My wife and I are both still working today, rather than being retired, because we had children at a later age. Additionally, my wife and I have been blessed by our careers and thus our ability to financially provide for our children without help from others.
As we, my wife & I, were growing up there existed an infrastructure of support services, provided primarily by religious organizations, to assist young women who became pregnant without the benefit of clergy as it was expressed in those days. Many of those young women and the fathers of their children were forced to get married or were shipped off to “homes” to await the birth of the child. When the child was born it was usually taken from the mother soon after birth and processed through an adoption agency relatively quickly. Difficult as all that was on the mother and the child it seemed to work reasonably well. Somewhere during the 1980s/90s that infrastructure went away. While most states claim to have child and family social service agencies, they are typically not well funded nor staffed to meet the need. It is a cunundrum with which our society is not equipped to respond.
In an ideal world there would not be unwanted or unexpected pregnancies. There would be no cases of rape or incest. There would be no pregnancies that endangered the life of the mother. Unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal world and we never have. As a result, we have elements of our society that first, condemn a woman for getting pregnant outside marriage. We have parts of society that believes the use of birth control is sinful. There are elements of our society that hold no one, individual, governmental agency or religious organization, has the right to tell a woman what she can or can’t do with her body. There are those who believe, I’m one of them, that sex outside of marriage is sinful. History tells us that sex outside marriage has been going on since man & women first walked the earth. In other words, we have a society that is chocked full of contradictions in its value structure. Those contridictions are on display on this blog.
I know what I believe and I hold those beliefs strongly. I also believe that when my earthly journey is over I’m going to held to account for how I upheld those beliefs. It is clear, from the comments some make on this blog, that there are other views on that matter. I don’t agree with those views, but in our society the ability to hold and express those views freely is one of the basic freedoms we have. Our society is at its weakest point when we fail to acknowledge those freedoms.
I don’t have easy answers to the challenges we confront in this matter. There are those who believe we should just teach our children, especially our daughters, to just say no. That approach hasn’t worked since the days of the Garden of Eden. I do know that neither side on this issue benefits from the hate filled speech that seems to erupt from time to time.
#172 Yes, Aaron, someone is playing “God” every day when it comes to medicine. I had to be a part of one of those decisions (no, NOT an abortion) a few years ago and it’s awful. But even though we did the right thing, there are folks who would condemn us.
#172 BTW, Aaron, don’t remember if you were here months ago before MMM disappeared for a while, but part of his posting MO is to twist your words around, play what he considers sly little word games, ignore SOME of your words while reacting to others, or pretend to misinterpret the meaning of your post because it doesn’t fit the way he wants to reply.
#174 We know that you don’t “support” abortion, Ron. The natterings of a few nincompoops won’t convince us otherwise.
Dan, you’re right. Jesus did feed the masses. He did have supernatural powers due to being the Christ and all. And, yes we Christians are supposed to strive to be like him, but like all people, we fall way short. I could start a little Bible study if you want me to. He also spoke of self reliance, helping others, and not doing harm to children. He also spoke of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s (taxes). Fortunately, we do not have a Caesar yet,and we get a say so in the matter, through the democratic system. I like to voice my opinion because I am in that tax bracket that works until about the first of April for free while I fund idiotic programs that have never worked, like the welfare system. We have more poor people per capita today than when LBJ started this war on poverty. We need to teach some people how to fish.
And about the language. Lo siento, mi amigo. I do get a little colorful with it. Sometimes I can’t help myself. I know gdad with his panties in a wad and being an old school leftist would like to see me banned, rather than being challenged with facts and other points of view. I, like Suzie, like to point out absurdities by being absurd. It makes it fun for me. I do have a question on rules of decorum. The other day in the Evil Republican gets caught bullying a constituent thread, a poster named Saintbridge asked you:
Can I call this Rep. a Fu*#tard on your blog?
Well, I noticed gdad didn’t get offended or plead with you to say something, and you never answered him. Now I don’t know Saintbridge. You, dave, gdad, etc. might. He may even be in the inner circle of jerks around here, and get a free pass. I know he chooses “correct speech” and I don’t, but I’m assuming there is one set of rules. So, my question is, can I use symbols in words that might be offensive when I’m 8i+ch $l@pping someone around with facts and common sense? I’ll do whatever you say. It might take me half the fu*#ing night though.
Sandi, I really am sorry for going on the attack this morning, no excuse (except I hadn’t got my coffee down yet). You seem like a nice lady and in response to your attack I profiled you as a death penalty opponent. My bad. That remark about killing the innocent and protecting the murderers was really meant for people like Kristen.
The problem as I see it is that we live in a culture of death. It has cheapened human life to the point that murder is justified. The prosecution laid out a good case that Casey Anthony was a party girl and her small child was a nuisance to her and her lifestyle so she killed her. Ms. Anthony, in her mind, had a late, late, late, late, late term abortion. But we know that Caylee was still a human being before she left the womb. And people who are pro-abortion and anti death penalty are just twisted.
Does either side on any issue benefit from hate filled speech Ron? It solves nothing and ruins any hope of ever changing any situation. As you mention, some things have been going on since the beginning so they are not likely to change.
You raise a very valid point on the support systems, that, and comprehensive sex education along with the easy availability of prophylactics (for what we cannot stop) is the only way we will ever lower the number of abortions. But, like sex, we will never stop it. As long as the insulting stigmas and blatant name calling abounds as it does here, we will never stop women from choosing to end an unwanted pregnancy before anyone finds out. Some of you need to realize you are your own worst enemy on this issue.
Oddly enough, until you change your tune and support women fully, you will not save the babies. You just won’t. The decision really is yours. The power to make abortions really as rare as we all want is to change your attitude and policy not ours. I think we see who really wants to save babies.
Is a two-month old capable of living on it’s own? Don’t be a dimwit.
Don’t be a dimwit, Suzie.
Hypothetical situation:
If you had two cribs in your living room, one with a two month old and one with a baby who was premature and has underdeveloped lungs. Both are receiving equivalent amounts of medical attention and both are alive when you sit down to listen to Rush Limbaugh. In 15 minutes, will both be alive?
Chances are, no. The two month old is capable of living on it’s own. The preemie will have died because it is not capable of living on it’s own.
Now, was it viable to begin with? That’s where the Roe v. Wade debate comes in. If it wasn’t viable, there was a legal right to an abortion. You cannot assume the future. You cannot assume that the fetus would make it to full term, grow up and live a long and healthy life. You have to work with what you have at the present time.
You can’t arrest a drunk in a bar because he might get in his car.
You can’t prove that an embryo or fetus will become viable and live.
You can blather on and on as much as you want but as long as there are miscarriages and stillbirths there is still roughly a 1 in 4 chance that the embryo/fetus you are trying to protect won’t leave the womb alive anyway.
Let me begin by saying that I do not, contrary to what some on this blog say, support abortion.
Again, if you believe it should be allowed as an option, then yes you do support it’s practice. Again the rape analogy. Would you say you personally oppose rape, but believe it should be allowed for those who choose to commit it? If something is morally reprehensible, it is morally reprehensible for all.
————–
There are elements of our society that hold no one, individual, governmental agency or religious organization, has the right to tell a woman what she can or can’t do with her body.
I get tired of repeating it, but I will do so as long as people don’t get it: Ron, the issue in abortion is NOT THE WOMAN’S BODY. It is the life of another human being. If a woman or anyone else wants to slit her wrists or get a tatoo or anything else pertaining to HER body, then you’re right; nobody should be able to dictate UNLESS her actions affect the life of another human being. Which abortion does.
============
There are those who believe we should just teach our children, especially our daughters, to just say no. That approach hasn’t worked since the days of the Garden of Eden
It’s not just the words you teach; it’s the encompassing underlying morality message of God you convey. This is why godless UN condom programs don’t work. There is no underlying morality base. It’s just handing out pieces of rubber. If the moral message didn’t work, then girls who practiced their religion faithfully would have pregnancy and abortion issues in the same proportion as the general population. That’s not nearly the case.
Randall, you will soon learn that gdad is Dan the pirate’s, parrot.
He sits on his shoulder, repeats what he is told. Cleans his earwax. Eats his grub. And so on.
Randall K,
Your posts are sorely needed in this blog. Please continue to speak unapologetic common sense with the force and wit and energy you have been employing. Yes, this will make you a target, but there will be people you’ll get through to, though they would never admit it. Then there are the plain dopes you will never get through to, who are not interested in abadoning their very narrow world view. Those people, you just tweak the hell out of and enjoy it.
Randall K,
That was a long and funny post. I especially liked the “Caesar loophole” regarding rendering taxes, and appreciate your creative use of symbols for naughty words, and the wordplay, i.e. circle of jerks.
Here are pretty much the rules:
1) No using the 7 words you can’t say on television, per George Carlin, except for piss, as in “pissed off.” Another allowable context would be” pissed out of his mind.”
2) No making up demeaning nicknames for each other. Address people by the names they’ve chose to use here, or initials that approximate that name — such as RK in your case.
3) No racial pejoratives are allowed such as the n-word, and I’m sure you know the others I’m talking about, too.
4) I’ll trash posts that use terms that are in obvious bad taste, such as “c*m balls” (without the star). That got past me yesterday, and it should not have, and I later removed it when another poster brought it to my attention (which I appreciate).
5) I would GREATLY prefer posters refer to public officials by their name or initials, such as George W. Bush or GWB rather than “Shrub” or “President Shrub” or, for Barack Obama, “Idiot boy” or “bamma” or “Chimpy.” (And btw, don’t try to justify allowing “Chimpy” for Obama because some idiot on another forum somewhere used it against GWB 9 years ago). That stuff is dumb and childish and doesn’t add to anything to the debate. All it does is get people riled up about use of the insulting nickname. I may ban these in the future, I don’t know.
6) I would also GREATLY prefer that we not level direct insults at each other, and I reserve the right to trash posts that do. And the same goes for approximations of words that would otherwise be banned (see #1) that people try to sneak in using the $ symbol or whatever.
The overarching issue is that we debate ideas, not personalities, that we refrain from childish name-calling and that we do it with some minimal amount of respect for each other and decorum in language.
The truth is, I don’t like rules, and that goes for making them and especially for enforcing them. I’m pretty bad at the latter, honestly.
Is that clear enough?
#178 Randall K, I have NEVER called for anybody to be banned here, even the two or three right wingers who have expressed a desire to cause me physical harm (always the right wingers making threats). I did object to your language and I’ve objected to other language in the past.
I don’t know Saintbridge hardly at all and can’t tell you whether this person claims to be male or female, left or right. I also didn’t see that post (I don’t read EVERY post on the blog) until you brought it up now. And, yes, I find it objectionable.
As for for somebody having their panties in a wad, you sure seem to be bringing up my name or the names of a few other posters a WHOLE lot lately.
BTW, Randall K, since you seem to have such disdain for death penalty opponents, you might like to know that the troll whose slapping abilities you admire so much in fact says he/she/it objects to the death penalty. Another murderer coddler.
I was hoping for another cute call and response act from you two tonight, but I guess not.
#182 I think this is the same guy who on another thread accused me of juvenile insults. Glass houses.
“As for for somebody having their panties in a wad, you sure seem to be bringing up my name” – gdad
Haha… priceless (:
An insult?!? I thought you would be honored?
Geesh, just can’t please you.
I think the blog would be much farther ahead if a rule was put in to prevent whiners from complaining about every little “offense”. It’s not our fault their president is the worst in history and is now clearly trying to remove us from our standing as a superpower. (A $1 trillion new ‘stimulus’ bill after we were WARNED more spending would result in another credit rating drop). Frankly somebody actively trying to bring our country down does not deserve respect of any kind, and if his boosters are dumb/partisan enough to stay with him, they should accept every barb thrown at him with a smile. They deserve what they get.
You cannot assume the future. You cannot assume that the fetus would make it to full term, grow up and live a long and healthy life. You have to work with what you have at the present time.
Precisely, you can only go with the present, and at present the fetus is a living growing human being. You are the one assuming a future where the present condition changes. You have just argued FOR my point.
As for your hypothetical situation, what do you do if someone is so ill as to need a respirator, whether they be two years old or 80? By your logic, they can be done away with because they aren’t viable without outside attention. As we know, this is the goal of extreme socialist regimes; to do away with those who weakest: the old, the sick, and the unborn.
I think we see who really wants to save babies.
Of course, Sandi. The ones who sanction killing babies are only trying to save them. That makes sense.
But, like sex, we will never stop it. As long as the insulting stigmas and blatant name calling abounds as it does here, we will never stop women from choosing to end an unwanted pregnancy before anyone finds out..
This is all crap. The first step to reducing abortion is to criminalize it. Doing this takes away societal sanction. Then thousands of women who haven’t thought much about it immediately realize “Whoa, this is evil stuff. It has to be if it’s illegal”. Right now, some women assume abortion is OK because leftwingers have made it as easy as going through the drive-thru for a cup of coffee.
Saying “women are just going to do it anyway” as a justification for allowing clean sterile abortion centers is insane. Would you provide a nice facility for cocaine addicts and give them drugs just to protect them from back-alley impure coke just because “they’re going to do it anyway”?
RandallK, at least people who are pro-choice and anti-death penalty don’t lie like those who call themselves “pro life” and are pro death penalty.
And no one wants you banned, RandallK…you greatly overestimate your impact here.
I tend to dismiss things said by anonymous psychos on a blog. Carlin said what he said under his own name in public. ( I don’t even thing he used a “stage name” either.)
Well, since this topic has gone a bit off-course, let me try to steer it back on with a different viewpoint.
I’m what some would call a die-hard liberal. I believe in legalizing gay marriage and marijuana. I believe in helping those that cannot help themselves. I believe in strict gun control and I believe that religion should stay at least 500 feet away from me at all times.
But I do not believe abortion should be legal.
In my mind, there is too much of a question as to when, exactly, life begins. Is it at conception? When the heart forms? How about brain function? Too much of a question, and certainly not one that I am comfortable enough letting a court order answer.
When the idea of a woman’s body is brought up, I answer with this question: how do we feel when we see a pregnant woman smoking? Are we repulsed, as we should be? Most would say yes. Reason being, it is no longer just the woman’s body. She is now a vessel for another life, and she has a responsibility to treat it as such.
With all of that being said, I do not see those as supporting a woman’s choice as “baby killers.” Nor do I condemn them. I simply have a different viewpoint as theirs. It’s not my job to judge.
What does it say about someone’s mentality to spend time posting on a blog 24 hours a day? 9 am to 11 pm?? I am sure wealthy tycoons like Bill Gates do that… NOT !
juvenile insults gdad, look in the mirror bub.
Dan, in answer to the original question posed by your blog – which in case anyone missed it in the cacophony of moral outrage is “Was there a conflict with the new VA abortion clinic regulations?”: Undoubtedly. The gun dealer analogy was spot-on. Is there anything that can be done at this point to stop/amend the regs?
Also, I wonder if Carilion or HCA would step in and fill the void left by the clinics. If so, what effect would that have on availability and cost?
pammala, do YOU look in the mirror?
at present the fetus is a living growing human being
If you strike the word “living” you are right. A fetus is a growing human being, but the concept of life is where both you and I can throw out arbitrary benchmarks.
You say life begins at conception, I’d argue life begins at viability.
The difference between our arguments? The legal precident set by the US Supreme Court in the United States of America sides with the life begins at viability argument.
So, with that said you can ramble on and on about whatever you want, but the supreme law of the land says that Americans have a legal right to terminate a pregnancy prior to viability.
So, with that said you can ramble on and on about whatever you want, but the supreme law of the land says that Americans have a legal right to terminate a pregnancy prior to viability.
That’s the point of the whole abortion debate, genius. We know what the laws, and we’re saying it’s wrong and needs overturned.
If you strike the word “living” you are right. A fetus is a growing human being, but the concept of life is where both you and I can throw out arbitrary benchmarks.
What the hell are you talking about? An organism is either living or dead. There is no in-between. If an organism is growing, it is living. Therefore, life begins at conception, and that is not debatable. You lose big, Aaron. Better stick to your video games.
On the first topic (and why your most recent argument is still a moot point), two words: Stare Decisis
And where life begins is debatable. You are just ignorant.
The question is when does it go from one living complex organism (the mother with the nonviable embryo/fetus) to two living complex organisms (the mother and the viable fetus).
If the embryo/fetus is not viable, it is just a collection of cells that are mooching off a complex life form that is naturally facilitating the growth via an involuntary process with an end goal of hopefully being able to sustain human life.
But you are trying to tell me that something even as simple as a zygote is equivalent to a viable fetus. And that is just a load of crap.
Got it?
Now, I’m going to be the bigger man and I’m not going to claim victories like you feebly attempted to do. Do you know why? Because I’m not a narcissistic sociopath who revels with a so-called klatch (probably just your collection of porcelain dolls around a coffee table) about imaginary conquests on an internet blog.
(Ok, maybe I just sounded a bit pompous… Oh well.)
And I don’t play video games. I bought a second hand PS3 for a cheap blu-ray player and a way to connect to Netflix so I wouldn’t have to keep my TV connected to my laptop.
Care to try again?
But you are trying to tell me that something even as simple as a zygote is equivalent to a viable fetus. And that is just a load of crap.
The “viable” stuff is just arbitrary gobbledygook. A human zygote is EXACTLY the same as, not just a fetus, but also an adult human except for stage of development. That’s the ONLY difference. It’s a living human being at conception. And if it isn’t living, it’s dead. Again, no in-between.
You can’t argue this point with a bunch of made-up arbitrary or irrelevant stuff. You lost. Admit it and move on.
If it’s exactly the same, you shouldn’t need to add an exception about stage development. You seem to constantly struggle with the use of qualifiers in the English language.
They are not exactly the same.
And when my “arbitrary” and “irrelevant stuff” has legal precident, I can use it in arguments as much as I want and I will always have the upper hand against you.
If it’s exactly the same, you shouldn’t need to add an exception about stage development.
I didn’t say they were exactly the same; I said they were the same except for stage of development. Same as a two-year-old and a 40-year-old. And again, the legal decision was wrong, and that’s why it’s being eroded and will eventually fall.
Poor Aaron can’t refute that life begins at conception.
There are more similarities between a 2 year old and a 40 year old than a zygote and a nonviable fetus and a viable fetus. Most of those being the capability of the complex processes necessary to sustain life independent from the mother.
Life does not and cannot begin at conception. What does begin at conception is a process. Life begins at the point that the fetus is able to sustain life independent of the mother (albeit, possibly on life support) outside of the womb.
Just because you say you’re right and think you’re right, doesn’t make you right. Just because I say I’m right and think I’m right, doesn’t make me right either. But right now the law is on my side and whether you agree with the law or not, you’re screwed because the law of the land does not agree with you.
But my argument is when you can remove a zygote from a mother and nurture it outside of the womb and have it proceed through the various developmental stages to grow into a healthy infant, then I will concede that life begins at conception. But right now, a fetus in about the 21st-24th week is roughly the “arbitrary” line where the product of the reproductive process is able to live outside of the womb without the assistance of a mother.
You cannot prove that life begins at conception. You can only prove that a process begins at conception.
Simple minded Suzie can’t seem to wrap her mind around complex arguments (and also seems to forget what she writes… because to be precise her quote was “A human zygote is EXACTLY the same as, not just a fetus, but also an adult human except for stage of development,” so she did say they were “exactly” the same.) Poor Suzie really is going crazy… I don’t know whether to continue on with this or to just feel sorry for her and stop.
#206 Stop. And then maybe she will. That would be capital.
There are more similarities between a 2 year old and a 40 year old than a zygote and a nonviable fetus and a viable fetus
Nope. Exactly the same except for stage of development. Keep trying though. LOL.
You cannot prove that life begins at conception.
So you’re saying all organisms are dead at conception, rather than alive. How do you figure that?
Aaron, just go with the Constitutional definition of life. You know it is in there, it is after all the only thing we need to run the nation. What did the Founding Fathers say?
You are an idiot that is not capable of complex thought.
Simple life and complex life are two completely different things. If they were the exact same, organ donation would not be possible.
Just because cells are living doesn’t make a body alive or capable of living.
The AMA sees death as irreversible cessation of the function of either the brain or the heart and lungs. The definition of life would logically be the converse of that, meaning a functioning brain, heart, and lungs.
I’m done with this. You’re simplistic thoughts contribute absolutely nothing to an intelligent society.
Simple life and complex life are two completely different things
OK. So now we’ve gone from “not yet alive” to simple vs. complex life. You’re grasping at straws, changing your story faster than the Democrats did with Iraq. LOL.
You’ve lost, Aaron. Just admit it and move on.
6820th career victory and this is the 211th won when the opponent threw out the white flag and conceded the debate.
But the wins that feel the very best are when you cite evidence or make a point so strongly that your opponents are too flat-footed to even respond, when they know you’ve got them dead. Such was the case with the $30,000 RCPS brochure boondoggle. Collected six quick wins off that baby.
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah… You really aren’t that humble are you? You even lie and make stuff up if it makes you feel better (and claim arbitrary victories in the process).
I never waved a white flag. You seem to think cellular life is the same as human life which is not true. You’re and idiot and I’m just done with your stuipidity on this topic.
How much does real estate cost in Zimbabwe? I’d be willing to invest in your relocation.
Aaron, are those human living cells you and Suzie are talking about?
(Mark),
Human? Yes. Capable of life independent of the mother? Not always.
But that right there is the debate.
I know the asinine angle you’re coming from. But if you’re going to be as vague as saying “oh, it’s human,” I’ll just counter that your skin is human so by your definition (without qualifiers) you’re killing a human every time you cut yourself.
Oh, but you want to add qualifiers? Going to argue that skin cells are predetermined? Ok, well the umbilical cord contains human stem cells that are killed when you cut it after birth. Stem cells are not predetermined. Killing human life at birth? What? Oh, so you’re going to add more qualifiers? Well at what point do you qualify human life as having an active brain, a heartbeat and (the crux of my overall argument) lungs at least to the point of being able to develop into working lungs outside of the womb?
I mean, I am arguing fetus viability and I’m being told that the arbitrary concept of viability is rubbish and Suzie McSimpleton (aside: Dan, would you consider that name calling?) is trying overly generalize and saying that mitosis is the same as brain activity, a heartbeat and working lungs. But my argument is just a simple step just beyond her argument. All I am is asking is at what point is the fetus able to live without the assistance of the mother.
Yes, it is somewhat of an arbitrary benchmark since it’s different in every situation. If you wanted me to give a legislative benchmark, I’d even be ***conservative*** in average estimates and say that viability occurs between 18-20 weeks (in reality 50% viability occurs around 23 and no fetus has ever lived a premature birth before 21 weeks… but like I said… I’m being conservative on that benchmark.)
All I am arguing is that until the fetus is capable of life outside of the womb, it is not alive. It is merely a predictable genetic anomaly growing inside of the mother. Therefore, part of her body and she is the only person that can dictate what can or cannot happen to her body. Not you, not me, not Suzie.
Going to argue that it is developing into a human? Suzie already tried the “oh, it’s the exact same aside from stage development,” angle. She also tried to say I argued her point when she actually argued my point. Stage development is a relative argument. Yes, something *might* be in a developing stage, but that’s just about it. (1) Egg+Sperm, (2) Zygote, (3) Embryo, (4) Fetus (nonviable), (5) Fetus (viable), (6) Baby. I just named 6 stages of development.
Is #1 the same as #6? No, it’s not. If you want to say it is then you’re crazy. #1 might develop into #6, but that’s assuming a future situation and the law says you can’t do that. At all… in any situation… (You can’t arrest a drunk person in a bar because they might drive drunk)
I mean, I could go a different route in arguing abortions.
Girl A walks into Planned Parenthood. Girl B walks into Planned Parenthood. Girl C walks into Planned Parenthood.
Which girl got birth control pills?
Which girl got an STD test?
Which girl got an abortion?
According to HIPAA privacy laws, why is it any of your damn business? For a small government “get government out of our lives” proponent, you’re awful nosy.
I’m tired of this pissing match argument. As I’ve said many times before, stare decisis is on my side so it’s a pissing match I don’t even have to enter to win.
Holy blemish Batman… that last post is riddled with typos…
Ehh, it’s 4am, what did you expect?
Probably doesnt take more than a cell or two to vote Republican. I can sort of see her point.
so Aaron, just where do you think human life comes from, it isnt the stork babe. life begins at conception..believe it or not.
I know the asinine angle you’re coming from. But if you’re going to be as vague as saying “oh, it’s human,” I’ll just counter that your skin is human so by your definition (without qualifiers) you’re killing a human every time you cut yourself.
Nope. A skin cell can never mature into an adult human being. A zygote can. So much for that idiotic example.
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All I am is asking is at what point is the fetus able to live without the assistance of the mother.
Just another stage of development. Same as lung function, heartbeat, ability to eat solid food, puberty. We don’t care about your subjective developmental markers.
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Is #1 the same as #6? No, it’s not. If you want to say it is then you’re crazy. #1 might develop into #6
Let’s try another definition, since you seem to need guidance: A living human being is one that will, barring premature death, develop into an adult human being. This applies to zygotes from the moment of conception all the way to death.
There ya go. Very simple. Just like you are.
Mitosis begins at conception. Life generally begins when a baby can legitimately exist outside of the womb. Through Modern science, Life can theoretically begin around the 23-25 week of gestation mark which is about the time of the third trimester beginning. Those abortions generally don’t happen unless there’s a threat to the life of the mother.
So either way, the way the laws/policies are now are in concordance with the pro-life movement. They just have yet to understand science.
Even if you agree that potential life is life, the sad fact remains that between 900K and 1 million miscarriages occur every year. There is no way on earth to determine that a “zygote” or fetus before the second trimester will be born alive. The vast majority of abortions occur in that first trimester, with some going into the second trimester and again there is no guarantee of a live birth. The fact is that life is as capricious as it is precious but it remains a woman’s right to choose if a pregnancy is terminated. As it should.
http://www.hopexchange.com/Statistics.htm
http://www.nichd.nih.gov/womenshealth/research/pregbirth/miscarriage_stillbirth.cfm
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
If the flue vaccine causes a miscarriage or still birth is that murder?
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/flu-vaccine-caused-3587-us-miscarriages-%C2%A0stillbirths/
Life generally begins when a baby can legitimately exist outside of the womb. Through Modern science, Life can theoretically begin around the 23-25 week of gestation mark which is about the time of the third trimester beginning.
Scott, so the baby is dead before the 23-25 week mark?
15% to 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage….most within the first couple of weeks. Is there an afterlife for these fertilized, already dividing cells?
I’m asking a serious question. What do you believe?
Kristen- Probably doesn’t take a functioning brain either.
pammala- At least Suzie and (Mark) attempted to contribute something semi-intelligent. I feel like in this blog, you’re the D student ridicules the A students for getting a B. There’s no logical reasoning for half of your posts.
Suzie- Your stage development argument is pathetic. A zygote today will not have developed into a viable fetus until February. To say that those two are equivalent is impossible. As I’ve said multiple times, you have to work with what you have now, not what you will have in 5 months. Viability is not a subjective developmental marker, it’s an objective point that is different for everyone (but as scott said, 23-25 week range. And the youngest baby born that survived was only at 21 weeks 5 days.) That benchmark is not like eating solid foods or walking (like you’d equate it to.) That benchmark is a life or death benchmark. You say that “barring premature death…” Well here’s some news for you Suzie, you’re admitting that something isn’t quite ready yet. Do you call cake batter in a pan a cake? No, it’s cake batter. It still has to spend 25 minutes baking before it’s a cake. It’s going to be a cake, but it isn’t one yet. You’re arguing it was a cake from the moment you cracked the first egg (yes, pun intended.)
Holy rusted metal, I’ve done it again!
My apologies for the typos. I don’t think there are as many this time.
Suz, enough with the stupid “is it dead” question. Death is when life is terminated. If something is not yet alive, it cannot be dead.
You say that “barring premature death…” Well here’s some news for you Suzie, you’re admitting that something isn’t quite ready yet. Do you call cake batter in a pan a cake? No, it’s cake batter. It still has to spend 25 minutes baking before it’s a cake. It’s going to be a cake, but it isn’t one yet. You’re arguing it was a cake from the moment you cracked the first egg (yes, pun intended.)/em>
You could also say barring premature death, a two-year-old will become a human adult. Is it a human adult yet? No, it’s a child. Is it a human being like an adult? Yes it is.
The cake batter analogy doesn’t work for this reason: A zygote does not have to undergo any process or change other than maturity to develop into an adult, and it will definitely become an adult barring premature death. It will not remain a zygote. Cake batter, on the other hand can and will remain cake batter unless some special process happens to turn it into something else (a cake).
Suzie- Your stage development argument is pathetic. A zygote today will not have developed into a viable fetus until February. To say that those two are equivalent is impossible..
They are equivalent except in stage of development. You could also say a two-day-old doesn’t look much like a 30-year-old. And that’s longer from now than February is.
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As I’ve said multiple times, you have to work with what you have now, not what you will have in 5 months.
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Suz, enough with the stupid “is it dead” question. Death is when life is terminated. If something is not yet alive, it cannot be dead.
An organism is either living or dead. The not-yet-alive category is fantasy. If an organism is growing, it HAS to be a living being. This is so obvious, I shouldn’t have to repeat it.
This argument makes no sense. By that logic, you could kill a two-week-old because it isn’t nearly fully developed.
Even if you agree that potential life is life, the sad fact remains that between 900K and 1 million miscarriages occur every year. There is no way on earth to determine that a “zygote” or fetus before the second trimester will be born alive. The vast majority of abortions occur in that first trimester, with some going into the second trimester and again there is no guarantee of a live birth.
There is also no guarantee a newborn will reach adulthood. But how does that allow someone to come in and snuff out the life before it matures, regardless of the stage its in? Your argument follows no logic, but that is no surprise.
“Because not all children make it to adulthood, I may kill my child”. Huh?
15% to 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage….most within the first couple of weeks. Is there an afterlife for these fertilized, already dividing cells?
Newborns don’t think a lot. Do you believe in an afterlife for them?
The cake batter argument is better than any crap you ramble on about. In fact, it makes perfect sense.
Ever heard/used the term “bun in the oven”?
If the mother dies, the zygote/embryo/fetus dies. If the electricity goes out, your cake batter won’t get baked.
The stage development you speak of is the same as the baking process. A certain amount of specific events and environmental parameters must all align for the process to occur. You counter your own argument when you essentially say a zygote doesn’t have to undergo any process to become an adult, with the exception of the process it must undergo to become an adult. Stage development is a process.
As for your ‘not yet alive’ issue, I’d argue that until the fetus is viable, it’s the rough equivalent (and I mean very rough equivalent) to a tumor. A growth inside the human body that is leeching off the nutrients of the host. When it is capable of sustaining life outside of the womb, then you can consider it alive.
All of your post-birth analogies to counter my arguments are pointless. The law is clear (and I’m sure everyone on this blog agrees) that once birth occurs, an unquestionable benchmark was crossed and it is a human life that is protected unquestionably by the laws of the land.
If the mother dies, the zygote/embryo/fetus dies. If the electricity goes out, your cake batter won’t get baked.
..which again fits the parameter “unless the zygote dies prematurely, it WILL develop into an adult human being”. Under no circumstance will it remain a zygote. That’s completely different from the stupid cake batter analogy. Cake batter will just remain cake batter until it rots. Really, comparing living beings to inanimate objects is stupid as hell anyway.
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You counter your own argument when you essentially say a zygote doesn’t have to undergo any process to become an adult, with the exception of the process it must undergo to become an adult. Stage development is a process.
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As for your ‘not yet alive’ issue, I’d argue that until the fetus is viable..
When are you going to understand, Aaron? Nobody gives a s**t what you think. I am interested only in science and indisputable logic.
All of your post-birth analogies to counter my arguments are pointless. The law is clear (and I’m sure everyone on this blog agrees) that once birth occurs, an unquestionable benchmark was crossed and it is a human life that is protected unquestionably by the laws of the land.
Also, for the fourth time, the law is wrong. That is why we’re having the abortion debate. It is based on slippery ‘logic’. Many laws have been wrong and immoral in the past and repealed. Like the 3/5 human law for blacks or the Japanese internment law. This will be one of those.
Aaron, an 11th month (after conception) old can survive with medical support but not on its own.
A 4 week old embryo can survive with medical support but not on its own.
Do you argue that a mother should be able to terminate the life of either if it appears that this child will be a cramp in her lifestyle or cause a budget (gasp!!) to need to be put in place?
“Scott, so the baby is dead before the 23-25 week mark?”
Death occurs after birth. Would it make sense to say that before you were born, were you dead?
You’re born, you live your life, then you die. You don’t die, then are born, then you die again. Come on. I know this isn’t a foreign concept! Even brain dead people get it!
(Mark)-
A 4 week old embryo can survive with medical support but not on its own.
The earliest premature birth in the world to survive was 21 weeks, 5 days.
Suzie-
When are you going to understand, Aaron? Nobody gives a s**t what you think. I am interested only in science and indisputable logic.
And you believe everyone cares about what you think? You just don’t care about what I think (and I’m fine with that). Science? Indisputable logic? Why do you care about these things now? Climatologists offer you science and indisputable logic that you seem to refute.
But all of that is beside the point. I haven’t denied the concept of living cells at conception, but the collection of cells is unable to live and develop without a host until 20-25 weeks in. That seems to be reasonably logical… Hell, a 6-3 conservative US Supreme Court voted 7-2 with my logic.
“Aaron, an 11th month (after conception) old can survive with medical support but not on its own.”
I’d love to get a look at the mother who delivers a baby at 11 months. If it can’t survive without medical support by then, you’ve got a major problem.
“A 4 week old embryo can survive with medical support but not on its own.”
At 4 weeks it’s a blastocyst, not even an embryo, and it’s not surviving anywhere outside the mother. It’s a small blog of undifferentiated cells.
I haven’t denied the concept of living cells at conception, but the collection of cells is unable to live and develop without a host until 20-25 weeks in.
Nope. It’s a living organism at conception, a living human being. It’s irrelevant what it can or can’t do without a host. As I’ve said. Show me a two-day old that can live without help.
I wish I knew why ‘stage of development’ was a difficult concept for you libs.
I have a question for “people” that proform abortions–how come they aren’t held for murder? Because this “child” has blood-breath and IS A LIFE from conception to the time of “the AWFUL FATE” OF ABORTION…there are THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES longing to give a loving home to a child (or children)that these “females” carrying this precious life could (if asked) sign the baby over to them–this is MUCH better than “murdering these helpless infants”….as for the “people” doing the abortions THEY ARE NO BETTER THAN THOSE THAT PUT THE INNOCENT BABIES IN BAGS OR TRASH BINS OR IN RIVERS altho the world is “looking for the “mothers” to charge them with “murder” -THAN why aren’t the people doing abortions charged with murder–and put behind bars …SO THEY CAN’T PERFORM ANY MORE MURDERS..a precious life is crying out for help when they didn’t ask to be born..BUT if they could speak they would ask “WHY ME?” what have I don’t to deserve you “killing” me.I can understand a female that has a “health” related problem that can’t help theirself but the baby could still be given to a loving family instead of death…May God have mercy on those doing these wrongful acts for THEIR OWN SELF GAIN!!!.One day they will answer to the almighty judge of ALL judges..
I would like to say that it still should be the right of a woman to choose what she wants to do with her body. And Carilion doesn’t offer pristine facilities after surgery. To receive your bill and still owe money after being in a room where it was COLD you could not control the heat and it was not clean is pathetic. We need to have more hopsitals in the valley I personally do not want to go to those clinics. Thank god for those options, unfortunately we don’t have enough choices of hospitals. To hold these smaller clinics to higher standards is just not fair, people will go out of the roanoke area if they have too, there are too many children in the system who are not properly cared for now.
Most of the people on peters creek road are so old and definitely not having children I find it funny seeing them.
Haven’t I been hearing republicans all over the news this week talking about how we need fewer regulations so that the economy can recover? I guess they mean fewer regulation for the aspects of the economy that THEY support and more regulations for things they don’t support. Yes, that must be it.
And it seems that Suzie spreads misinformation like a whore spreads VD.
According to her, everyone with a different opinion is a dimwit and thus their opinion is irrelevant, every law SHE disagrees with is WRONG no matter what legal experts think, and everything she believes in is absolute FACT, regardless of any scientific evidence to the contrary.
Damn. Susie is just scary. I hope your chosen profession has nothing to do with teaching my kids or anyone elses.
Suzie, I wonder how many “persons” you’ve flushed down your toilet with each menstrual period in your lifetime.
#241 Don’t worry B’burg, suzie CLAIMS she’s retired and living off her old man.
I guess they mean fewer regulation for the aspects of the economy that THEY support and more regulations for things they don’t support. Yes, that must be it.
Nope David. I’ve always believed one of the few government duties is to protect its citizens from barbarous acts of violence. Its a very conservative position.
And it seems that Suzie spreads misinformation like a whore spreads VD.
I see David is a pretty classy guy. You fit in with a lot of the men in here.
Damn. Susie is just scary. I hope your chosen profession has nothing to do with teaching my kids or anyone elses.
So people who don’t want babies butchered are scary? Talk about a twisted little world you leftwingers live in.
“The earliest premature birth in the world to survive was 21 weeks, 5 days.”
Aaron, embryos are removed and kept alive medically every single day. Are you also saying that a baby carried to term that is delivered can immediately survive completely on its own??
#244 “I see David is a pretty classy guy.”
David obviously learned by reading your posts. What he said pales to your routine vileness.
“I said: And it seems that Suzie spreads misinformation like a whore spreads VD.
Suzie said: I see David is a pretty classy guy. You fit in with a lot of the men in here.”
Based on the things you’ve said, I think you fit in pretty well also. The difference is that I was making a joke to get a point across (the point of which I say is still true), while you routinely belittle other’s opinions and call everyone who doesn’t agree with you some name or another.
That what these types of people do: They constantly call other people names, question their intelligence, and/or question their patriotism, but if someone does the same to them they become so surprised and indignant, while at the same time bypassing the original issue. They are masters at righteous indignation.
Kind of like how everyone called Obama a Muslin and terrorist (or implied that he was). However, when Joe Biden was recently accused of saying tea partiers acted like “terrorists” during the debt debate, oh my, those same folks were so up in arms. “How could he say such a thing!”
I said: I guess they mean fewer regulations for the aspects of the economy that THEY support and more regulations for things they don’t support. Yes, that must be it.
Suzie said: Nope David. I’ve always believed one of the few government duties is to protect its citizens from barbarous acts of violence. Its a very conservative position.
You say “Nope”, but then you go on to support my statement. YOU don’t support abortion, YOU think abortion is barbarous, so you like that regulation. And yet there are all these other regulations out there that protect people in their everyday lives that I’m sure you would have no problem getting rid of because their effects are not so easy to get across in a single sound bite. Abortion is just an easy one to make noise about. It’s easy to carry signs with pictures of fetuses and say “Abortion = Murder!”. Not much thought required there. Other regulations aren’t so simple. What about regulations that protect people from toxic chemicals, the effects of which may not be seen for years? Remember the Love Canal? What about regulations to make sure that oil companies operate their oil rigs safely? There are at least 11 people dead because of the BP disaster and countless others who may have serious complications later on in life because of exposure to the oil, not to mention all the dead wildlife and the effects on the businesses that rely on the fishing industry down there. But I’m sure the Republicans would love to remove some of the regulations on the oil industry.
Based on the Republican talking points, they shouldn’t support this new bill in Virginia either. According to their logic, this new regulation will cost jobs. The clinics will have to either close or spend tons of money trying to comply with the regulation, which may require them to lay people off. We need to get rid of these regulations that are making it hard for small businesses to hire people. After all, they’re the “job creators”, aren’t they? Oh, but that’s okay, Suzie doesn’t support abortion, so that regulation is okay.
The funny thing is that the regulation is not even about banning abortion (although I suspect the motives of the sponsors are related to abortion, but they are too dishonest to admit it). I believe it’s supposed to be about improving the conditions at facilities that perform abortions; however, I don’t think any of your comments were related to that. It’s all about how YOU hate abortion and anyone who supports it. You are not even on-topic.
“You are not even on-topic.”
You must be new here…