Sunday’s column: Letter of the law deserves an ‘F’
This is how Joyce Crouch displays her handicapped parking placard. | Submitted by Joyce Crouch
Life is full of major and minor outrages, and last week, I heard about one of the latter.
It involves Joyce Crouch, 65, of Salem, and a $25 parking ticket she got Wednesday.
She’s retired, and disabled as a result of a knee replacement that didn’t work. She also has a hernia condition that among other things prevents her from reaching. Joyce can’t even use the drive-through teller at a bank because of that. Her husband Carson is disabled, too.
As a result of her conditions, Joyce has a handicapped placard that allows her to park in disabled parking spaces.
Wednesday she had an appointment at a Carilion rehab clinic. She parked her Ford Expedition in a handicapped space at McClanahan and First streets in South Roanoke.
Because the hernia makes it difficult to reach up to the rear view mirror, she doesn’t hang her placard there. Instead, she stood it up neatly in a slot that’s on her dashboard, so it would be obvious. She said she’s been doing it for at least three years without any problem. (It’s illegal to drive around with a hanging placard).
Joyce’s appointment lasted for an hour, and when she returned to the SUV she found the parking ticket on it.
Her offense? She didn’t hang her placard from the rear view mirror after she parked the car. The listed violation was: “Improper display of placard.” A little farther down on the ticket was this comment: “Placard on dash beside rehab center.”
This means the ticket-issuer actually saw Joyce’s placard, and went ahead and busted her anyway.
Joyce Crouch's $25.00 ticket
From the listed time, she could tell the ticket had been issued 13 minutes before she got back to her SUV. Joyce said she called a phone number on a pamphlet the officer also left, and asked the city employee who answered to send the officer who issued the ticket back to her parking space.
She wanted to inform the officer that her disability was the reason she hadn’t hung it from the rear view mirror. It’s a pretty good excuse.
The city employee said, “we can’t do that,” and that Joyce would have to talk to a supervisor. Except the supervisor was not there. So Joyce said she left a message. She got no call on Thursday.
She also called her son in law, who’s a police officer. He encouraged her to go to court and fight it. It sounds like Joyce may do that if she can’t get hold of a reasonable person. I decided to try to do that for her on Friday.
I called the city department of Billing and Collections and spoke to Christina Cherro, its senior tax compliance administrator. She looked through messages in her inbox and couldn’t find one from Joyce. I gave her Joyce’s numbers and Cherro said she would call her (someone else from her office did).
The parking enforcement section of the city code, 20-76, addresses this subject. It says a placard must be hung from the rear view mirror, and the fine is $25 if it’s not. (It’s $125 if there is no handicapped tag or placard).
In Roanoke, the parking police ride around in funny little vehicles called Cushmans that look like the clown carts you see the Kazim Temple guys bring out for parades.
“When they’re driving, and they’re passing handicapped spaces, they’re looking for the placard on the rear-view mirror,” Cherro told me. “If the placard is properly displayed, they don’t have to get out of their Cushman.” She also added that the officers are timed on their routes.
“I don’t make the city code. I just make sure it’s enforced,” Cherro added. You’ve heard that one before.
Cherro also told me that when she spoke to Joyce she would most likely urge her to explain in writing why she hadn’t hung her tag the legal way, because perhaps something can be done.
Dana Long, manager of Billings and Collections, said the department took over parking ticket enforcement July 1 and is still on a learning curve. “We want to be fair and consistent.”
Some things should done, in this case and others.
First, the city should tear up Joyce’s ticket, and apologize for writing it. In the worst case scenario, a parking cop shouldn’t have to waste more than 45 seconds ascertaining if there’s an unhung placard, then hopping back in their Cushmans to proceed on their way.
That’s a tiny favor to pay someone who’s disabled. They deal with all kinds of indignities and lack of accessibility every day.
Second, the city might want to consider rewriting its code in a way that puts the convenience of handicapped people above the convenience of its Cushman-riding parking cops.
That might prompt the Cushman cops to better focus their time and effort on the selfish dolts who have no disability and who park in handicapped spaces anyway.
Those $125 tickets would be lot more profitable to the city than the $25 ones. They should tow or boot those cars, too.
That would get the attention of the real scofflaws here, rather than the little old ladies who can barely walk and can’t reach.
August 28, 2011 - 6:00 AM
They should transfer these “letter of the law” zealots to the SECs enforcement division or the financial crimes section at DOJ. They have no alphabet there, they can’t spell bankster.
Don’t jump to conclusions as to what I think the ultimate resolution of this situation will or should be.
However, there are a couple of issues that seem conspicuously missing from the story, IMHO.
Why does she not have disabled plates on the car, if she is a permanently handicapped, as presented, and she is as unable to display the placard, as presented?
Is parking enforcement section of the city code, 20-76 unique to the city or a restatement of State statute? Typically, much of local traffic & parking code is a simple restatement of State statute.
Many escalations have code or regulation that do not allow officers to void a ticket or the like — once written. It is a guard against bribery / favoritism. Likewise, supervisors cannot “fix” a ticked w/o documenting that it was issued in error of actual code — for the same reason. Generally, it takes a Commonwealth Attorney or Judge to void a ticket. Does the city have such code or regulation?
FWIIW, as to enforcing the law against real scofflaws, I could not agree more.
See: State statute § 46.2-1250
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Unauthorized use of disabled parking license plates or placards; penalty.
A. Any person who parks in a space reserved for persons with disabilities that limit or impair their ability to walk or attempts to use the parking privileges afforded by § 46.2-1245 and displays a disabled parking license plate, DV disabled parking license plate which has been issued under subsection B of § 46.2-739, organizational removable windshield placard, permanent removable windshield placard, or temporary removable windshield placard which has been issued to another person, and is not transporting a person with a disability which limits or impairs his ability to walk, shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.
B. The local governing body of any county, city, or town may by ordinance incorporate this provision by reference.
**
A Class 2 misdemeanor is punishable by up to $1000.
See § 18.2-11.
**
Punishment for conviction of misdemeanor.
The authorized punishments for conviction of a misdemeanor are:
SNIP
(b) For Class 2 misdemeanors, confinement in jail for not more than six months and a fine of not more than $1,000, either or both.
SNIP
**
Now that should get someone’s attention.
As to what I think the ultimate resolution of this situation will or should be, I think the Commonwealth Attorney should Nolle Prosequi the case, assuming that the story checks out.
**** Spello, proofo, speller-checker road kill alert. ****
In my last comment, “Many escalations have code or regulation that do not allow officers to void a ticket or the like — once written. It is a guard against bribery / favoritism” should have been “Many LOCALITIES have code or regulation that do not allow officers to void a ticket or the like — once written. It is a guard against bribery / favoritism.”
I think this is a stupid ticket ( I think almost all are stupid) but why doesn’t she just hang it from the rear view mirror once and just leave it there?
#1, it’s a lot easier to pick on handicapped older ladies than rich young Wall Street Turks…they can afford to put up a fight.
Kristen,
It’s illegal to drive around with the placard hanging from the rear view mirror.
DaveH does have a good question. Why no handicapped plates?
#5 I had no idea it was illegal to drive with a hang tag, Dan. I’ve been doing it for many, many years (a parking hang tag, but not handicapped) and never been stopped or ticketed. This tag doesn’t limit my vision.
Dan, ever heard of a ticket for driving with a handicapped placard hanging from a rear view mirror? I did not think so. While it may be against the law, it is not enforced. A while back, the company I worked for issued site parking passes that hung from the mirror. I asked the police about it. I was told that it was not inforced. Think about all the junk people hang from their mirror – beads, work ID’s, graduate’s tassles, etc. She could easier defend that than incorrect display. And I agree with DaveH – why not permanent tags?
Two thoughts:
1) You can always count on government bureaucrats to be the rudest most rigid people around. They can do that because they don’t work for anybody, don’t answer to anybody, and don’t have incentive to please anybody. When you think about it, that’s what’s wrong with everything government runs. They can’t even exercise common-sense judgment on a parking ticket.
2) If you can’t reach up to hang a ticket on the rearview, you shouldn’t be driving. The handicapped designation is the most abused system since SSI. Half the ‘handicapped’ people wouldn’t be that way if they weren’t obese. It’s amazing how many maladies go away, how many pills become unnecessary if a person drops 25 or 50 lbs. I get tired of rows and rows of prime parking spots taken up with handicapped parking, then seeing big fat people waddle out of them. I would institute a law that says if you are more than 25 lbs over your ideal body weight, you can’t get the handicapped designation. That protects people who really do have problems not of their own making, and would force the not-really-handicapped to shape the hell up.
david,
I agree the it’s sensible to not enforce the no-placard-from-the-mirror-while-driving law.
It also would be sensible not to enforce the handicapped-placard-must-be-hanging-from-the-mirror-on-a-vehicle-parked-in-a-handicapped-space law.
#9 Great idea, suzie! That will require more bureaucracy to enforce. Way to think up new jobs for people.
gdad
To answer your question on the handicapped plates issue. If you have multiple family vehicles or you frequently ride in vehicles belonging to someone else, it is much more convenient to have a placarf instead of
handicapped plates.
Suzie. We’ve all been treated to your diatribes against handicapped parking spaces and your complaint about those being the prime spaces that you should be allowed to park in because everyone else is an abuser. All
part of your I’ve got mine to hell weith the rest of you philosophy.
You don’t have to tell us any more. We all know that you are superior, selfish, and deserve to be bowed down to because you claim to be rich
(oops! job creator). So give it a rest.
#9 Suzie, you nailed it again. I hadn’t thought of it, but you’re right, if a person can’t reach up to hang a ticket on the mirror how can that person possibly drive without being a hazard to everyone else?
Dan,
It would be a nice public service to run a follow up to this column to explain to disabled folks how to obtain permanent handicapped license plates. Perhaps a kind police officer could help attach the plate to the vehicle!
Dan, I didn’t know that about placards.
VRWC,
One thing that shocked me in DIP class I took last year was that the recommended position for hands on a steeering wheel is not the 10- and 2-o’clock positions we were taught. Now it’s the 4-and 8-o’clock positions, or maybe 5 and 7. Anyway, it’s down on the lower part of the steering wheel. Moreover, the recommendation is that drivers shuffle steer, by passing the wheel through their hands, rather than yank it to the left or the right from the top.
I said to the instructor, “you’re kidding!” but he wasn’t. He said the reason is airbags. If you’re in an accident you’re more likely to suffer arm/shoulder injuries if your arm is on top of the wheel.
The point is, the prescribed steering manner by authorities requires NO reaching in order to “properly” steer the vehicle. That kind of undercuts your argument that if a driver can’t reach, he or she shouldn’t be driving.
(The next thing you’ll hear is, “if they can’t dance, they’re unable to operate the gas pedal or brake!”)
Finally: The Ford Expedition that Joyce drives has one of those high tech rear view mirrors that automatically dims at night and other things. It is not connected to the roof by a simple, thin metal rod like the cars you grew up with. There’s a plastic housing that covers that rod and the electrical wires that feed the mirror. The housing is a lot thicker than the old pole.
The size of the hang-holes on the placards don’t take this into account. They haven’t caught up with the technology, I guess. It would take Joyce at least 2 hands and some stretching to hang it there, if the hole was big enough to fit around the rear view mirror. Last week, her husband, who can reach, could not get it up there.
The alternative she chose — standing up in the slot, on her dashboard — was a perfectly reasonable compromise between a silly law and her handicap. By now the folks at city hall realize this, because the officer took a picture of how she had stationed the placard at the time he wrote the ticket, and the people at City Hall have looked at it.
Wow, I find myself agreeing with Dan. I think I need to go lie down…
IDK how much of any such decision we want to leave to the officer or the system. As people like Suzie demonstrate, there are those hard people who grant no excuses or modifications unless of course they are a way to slam “the government”. The way laws are written are the way they have to be enforced and then it is up to the court system to hash out the mitigating factors. I understand her difficulty and dilemma and I cannot imagine a judge will not. Do you suppose she is the only person who cannot hang or forgot to hang their placard? The officer is supposed to be able to see it in the designated place. If he gets out of his vehicle to look for it (laying on the dash, standing in the corner etc) that meets the law of not being hung in the proper place. Change the law or go to court and plead your case but complaining for even more indulgence might indeed mean that you want to be treated special which is pushing IMO. Ask the veterans who cannot even get handicapped spaces. We all have our burdens to meet.
Dan, I myself have a handicap placard. You see so many times people who drive with it on the mirror, even though this is against the law. I do not think a cop would stop someone and issue a ticket for that reason. What they should ticket is those that park in a handicap space, use the tag and they are not even handicapped, or the people who wait for someone in a handicapped spot. They are the ones who should get the tickets.
#9 Great idea, suzie! That will require more bureaucracy to enforce. Way to think up new jobs for people.
You’re right, Gdad. We should abolish the silly handicapped parking stuff altogether like pre-1974. Nobody died then. In Dan’s column, government was the problem on both ends. Without the law, there would have been no incident for city government to screw up.
Sandi, you’re right, a judge will agree with her and will dismiss the charge. But she’ll have to drive to court, find a place to park, go through the detectors, spend time in court waiting for her case to be called, etc. She will probably spend 3-5 hours getting ready for, going to, and sitting in court to have a $25.00 ticket dismissed. For most people it would probably be easier and cheaper to pay the ticket.
#12 Thanks for the answer, dave.
As people like Suzie demonstrate, there are those hard people who grant no excuses or modifications
No, I just wouldn’t allow hippos to get this designation unless they lose a couple of hundred lbs first. Then, they probably wouldn’t need it.
#13 Well, VRWC, as you can see, suzie DIDN’T nail it at all. Instead, all we have is a post that shows a person (suzie) who despises some handicapped and all overweight people.
Don’t you ever get tired of trying to prop up this troll and just looking silly in the process? Or was this another one of your clever posts that somehow shows what a dolt suzie actually is?
Dan #16, good points about the mirror. All drivers are individuals so we shouldn’t generalize about about their driving ability. There are alcoholics who drive daily, and never have accidents. They hide the smell of what they’ve been drinking with mouth wash, deodorant, etc, and they drive around with extremely high BACs (Blood Alcohol Content). Since I’ve never seen “Joyce” drive I don’t know how well she drives, but in general I would assume that a person who can not reach the rear view mirror would likely have difficulty handling a car.
Dan, it was great to see you use the word “dolt” in this column!!
Here’s a rule of thumb. If your midsection looks like it could contain one of those Swedish exercise balls, you shouldn’t get a special handicapped spot unless it’s the fartherst-away spot in the parking lot. Hell, those people should be required to walk off that blubber.
There are a lot of Law’s that I don’t like or disagree with, but the law is the law. Asking for exception? Where should we stop? No Quarter for the meter? Well excuse me judge. Speeding? well your Honor I was in a hurry. Please excuse me.
There are excuses for everything. Pay your fine learn your lesson. Just because you are disabled dosen’t excuse you from the law. And besides if you cannot reach out to your rearview mirror maybe you should rethink driving.
Re: #4, #8 & #15
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§ 46.2-1054. Suspension of objects or alteration of vehicle so as to obstruct driver’s view.
It shall be unlawful for any person to drive a motor vehicle on a highway in the Commonwealth with any object or objects, other than a rear view mirror, sun visor, or other equipment of the motor vehicle approved by the Superintendent, suspended from any part of the motor vehicle in such a manner as to obstruct the driver’s clear view of the highway through the windshield, the front side windows, or the rear window, or to alter a passenger-carrying vehicle in such a manner as to obstruct the driver’s view through the windshield. However, this section shall not apply (i) when the driver’s clear view of the highway through the rear window is obstructed if such motor vehicle is equipped with a mirror on each side, so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway for at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle, (ii) to safety devices installed on the windshields of vehicles owned by private waste haulers or local governments and used to transport solid waste, or (iii) to bicycle racks installed on the front of any bus operated by any city, county, transit authority, or transit or transportation district.
**
And yes, folk do get tickets.
FWIIW, some jurisdictions are clamping down on GPSs obstructing the driver’s view.
—–
As an aside, although the intent is clear, the plain language of “However, this section shall not apply (i) when the driver’s clear view of the highway through the rear window is obstructed if such motor vehicle is equipped with a mirror on each side, so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway for at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle….” seems to void the all of § 46.2-1054 for most vehicles.
.
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Re: #18
Sandi,
LEOs have a good deal of discretion as to when to stop someone. At any given time, there are very few drivers who are not breaking some law in-sight of LEOs.
It’s not too often that I agree with you but this is one subject that really I feel needs to be addressed. My wife has MS and we have permanent disability plates on our car. Too many people use these spaces that are not entitled to use them. We have lost 2 spaces around the Market Building that were previously handicap spaces. The remaining 2 downtown are often used by delivery trucks and other commercial vehicles. We even had one of the Traffic Enforcers pull his Scooter when we were in one of the now eliminated spaces and tell me we were parked in a handicap space when we had the tags on our car and he had passed behind our car. We cannot park in the parking garage and push a wheelchair on the sidewalk and through the market area. Much of the time vehicles parked in the market square are parked over the sidewalk and you would have to go into the street to pass. It seems that Roanoke law enforcement officers ignore these situations. We need to have the downtown market area for all citizens and potential customers–not just able bodied people. We pay taxes too and have money to spend. We eat out a lot but have been forced to go elsewhere besides the restaurants in this area. WE NEED HELP!!!!!!
I predict the city will rip up the ticket after Joyce sends them a written explanation.
I think I picked that up from Sandi . . . or was it Suzie?
#28 From me, but often when talking about one of suzie’s posts. Suzie declared that it was an antiquated word that nobody used any more. So I’ve used it frequently since.
They also have, or should have, enough discretion not to ticket a handicapped person’s car for displaying the placard in the way Joyce displayed it.
#34 Agreed.
Roy Lindamood, welcome to the blog. Reasonable people certainly won’t necessarily agree on everything. Nice to know we’ve found some common ground.
#28 Thank you for the examples that aren’t even close to what happened here, Henry. Let’s see, “I had a quarter but forgot to put it in or I just decided not to put it in” versus “I have a tag and am legitimately handicapped but because of my handicap I am unable to hang the tag around my mirror.”
Can’t believe it hasn’t been said yet. Officer W Rock is a jerk for issuing the ticket.
There, it’s been said.
Cold,
I’m a little shocked that some folks have said, “Harumphhhh! The law is the law!”
Many people got gassed to death, 1940-45, under that logic.
“Officer W Rock is a jerk for issuing the ticket.”
The bigger “jerks” are our Council members, past and present, who pass these codes. They have passed hundreds that are just as ridiculous as this. Check out the Roanoke City site sometimes. You will be shocked at some of the “codes”
It is roanokeva.gov. If your are sick of these BS codes, contact the Council.
If indeed the officer has that discretion (I personally have no knowledge of that), then yes, he made the initial error, no argument. But again, that “leeway” has a double edge as I pointed out. Some will get tickets, quietly pay them and some will never be bothered by anyone, and some will write a local columnist. And if that leads us all to the gas chamber, I guess we will have paved that road with being law abiding citizens. Our bad.
Re: #12
You can have both for just that reason.
Calling the guy jerk is a promotion.
Re: #35
Dan,
Nice double entendre (in the non risqué sense of the term)!
From MW:
Definition of DISCRETION
1: the quality of having or showing discernment or good judgment : the quality of being discreet : circumspection; especially : cautious reserve in speech
2: ability to make responsible decisions
3 a : individual choice or judgment
b : power of free decision or latitude of choice within certain legal bounds
1 & 2 Vs. 3
BTW — in case it was not clear from my initial comment, IMHO, it was poor judgement to exercise power and latitude of choice within certain legal bounds in the way it was.
.
.
#24 gdad, I don’t “prop” anybody up. Propping each other up is what you and Suzie’s other victims try to do for each other. That is part of the fun for those of us who read this blog. We enjoy reading your posts, all of you agreeing with each other, all of you congratulating yourselves, and then Suzie zinging all of you and showing you who runs the blog. Suzie IS this blog, she is strong by herself, she doesn’t need “propping up.”
People read this blog to read what she writes. You and a few others play a part in making this blog fun to read, but get a clue, it’s not because you are winning any discussions with Suzie. It’s because you make great cannon fodder.
“I get tired of rows and rows of prime parking spots taken up with handicapped parking, then seeing big fat people waddle out of them.”
I’m with ya Suzi! If people want to be fat, then God bless them. But it chaps my arse when I see them waddle out of the premo parking spots, and then block all of the aisles in the grocery store with their blubber trikes. Sam’s only has two blubber trikes. I like to see them fight over them. The loser gets to lean on their cart till the wheels moan, and if you get behind them, it looks like a sack of cats heading for the river when they walk.
“it looks like a sack of cats heading for the river when they walk.”
First hand experience?
Interesting.
Vast Right Wing, what he is trying to tell you is that it is sad to see people cheered on for being an ass. That is what it boils down to in this case too. That there are cretins who agree with the foul personage portrayed by Suzie, Al and pammala is not an unknown. We all are well aware that you folks exist and demean and disdain people. The anonymity of blogs gives you the “backbone” needed to belittle anyone less fortunate or too smart to fall for your lies. Go you! I am sure none of you have overweight, handicapped, ugly, poor or working class friends or family. The joke is on you, as is the sad sack!
First hand experience with what? Killing cats? No, just an attempt at humor. Lighten up.
Are you people stupid enough to believe that all disabled people are fat? Bush/Cheney misadventures alone contributed thousands of disabled veterans to communities in this nation. The people you are insulting might well have served this nation honorably and been disabled for their patriotism in defending your right to be obnoxious jerks. God the simple minded world you live in is sad, dark and ugly and it shows.
“it looks like a sack of cats heading for the river when they walk’
A very funny line.
VRWC,
It just drives Gdad crazy when you agree with anything I write. I enjoy it so much. Thanks.
The funny thing is Joyce Crouch weighs less than Suzie, unless Suzie is under 105.
#46 Well, VRWC, let me reiterate that it’s highly amusing — and quite sad — to see you tell suzie she nailed it again, when in fact she did quite the opposite.
I never said Joyce Crouch is overweight. But I did say if she is that immobile that she can’t move her arms up to face level, she shouldn’t be driving. That means she can’t adjust her rearview mirror, can’t use the sun visor, can’t turn on the dome light in an emergency, perhaps can’t make quick moves to turn on the wipers in the event of a sudden downpour.
I guess she needs people to fix her hair and wash her face at home and get stuff off of shelves in the kitchen. I feel badly for someone that disabled, and sort of doubt she is. But IF she is, she needs to have somebody else do the driving.
Are you people stupid enough to believe that all disabled people are fat
Did anyone say that? Can’t you read or do you just like to bitch?
When we choose who becomes a police officer, we should be choosing people who have a head on their shoulders. It should not be strict military outfit where you must follow direct orders 100% of the time for the success of the mission. Otherwise, our police would be a military unit. (Perhaps ranks of Captains and Sergeants and Lieutenants are out of place?)
Police officers should have thick skins and the ability to interpret the law for its intention. I think about Cops who can’t take it if an agitated person curses at them without understanding what has caused the person to become agitated. Instead of diffusing the situation, the offended cop exacerbates it by threatening and then arresting the agitated person. I think about that one cop who arrested the people “Watching TV” as an art display a year or two ago. Complete overbearing police.
If this cop had used his stupid head and given the lady a pass, he will likely avoid public ridicule, and maybe a dressing down from the embarrassing situation his lieutenant/sergeant are facing.
Perhaps they’re just not training them right down at the academy.
I find it sad that threads get hijacked and become about one person on here.
She very well may, and should, get this ticket dropped if she goes to court. BUT, what will stop another officer in this town or another one from writing her another one? Nothing. And she’d have to go through the aggravation of the process all over again. Why? Because it is a law and someone somewhere will write another ticket. My guess as to why this law that seems so stupid exists is that when you give people an inch, they will take a mile. If they don’t stipulate how to display it, then people will argue it was laying in the floorboard, or in the glove box, etc.
So, given the extent people will push the law I doubt that this one will be changed. Her only other option is to tie a piece of dental floss through the hole on the placard and leave herself about 3 feet of it attached. Lay the placard on her dashboard flat and loop the string around the rear view mirror. When she gets where she is going, grab the string (which would be hanging about where her shifter knob would be) and pull it until the placard is hanging and tie it around her steering wheel. It is now, both technically and practically, hanging from the rear view mirror…and she doesn’t have to reach for it and try to get it around the mew fangled electronic mirror housing. Problem solved.
Yes several of you have said as much and quite disdainfully. The topic was a ticket over a handicapped placard and it was the insulting conservatives who turned it into a fat bashing thread with no evidence at all.
“I find it sad that threads get hijacked”
Time for another “experiment.”
Sandi, Start taking notice when you go out in public. While there are legitimate disabilities, I see a lot of morbidly obese people with these placards, and if they parked at the end of the lot and walked briskly into the establishment, and didn’t order the left side of the menu every time they ate out, in about 2 years, they wouldn’t need those placards.
I’m not hatin’, just observing.
Re: #60
Bingo!
Trolling based on hatred mixed with attention seeking.
OTOH, I do know conservatives who are not so mean spirited and insecure. So, labeling these small-minded posters as conservatives is an insult to some reasonable folk who can actually debate and converse with wisdom, truth, and facts.
Nice to see the little RWers bonding over hating on handicapped people.
Does it occur to any of you leading lights of medicine that, just maybe, being handicapped lends itself to becoming overweight…not the other way around?
#62 So, Randall, how did you develop the ability to determine whether a person is disabled because they got obese instead of getting obese because they were disabled by something else?
I also like the myth that walking briskly across a parking lot will cure obesity. You should write a book.
True enough Dave H. I know Conservatives who are intelligent, articulate, kind, humble and very well aware of their humanity as well. It is a shame to label what we have to deal with here with the same identity we need a new word for the bile pushers.
Strange how these new people and VRWC always seem to show up just about the time suzie has been posting such incredible garbage that she’s had to back out of several threads out of embarrassment.
Randall K, there is observing and sharing and there is observing and bashing. I think we are all capable of determining which is which. A large section of our nation is obese and it is indeed getting worse. You do not walk in other people’s shoes and you do not know other people’s struggles. Maybe you should try for a little more “there, but for the Grace of God” and a little less “I wanna be a cretin and stir the pot” if you actually do seek discussion and debate without the hate.
#61 Yep.
63
Funny, I remember Dave H starting out in here as a “conservative”. I guess he felt he wasn’t getting enough attention to he morphed into this stark-raving lunatic.
I find it sad that threads get hijacked and become about one person on here.
I don’t see where the hijacking occurred. We’re still talking about the handicapped designation, the person involved, and the law-enforcement situation. If people have made this about me, it’s you leftwingers.
But let’s be honest. You people don’t like my take on this issue, so you say I’m “hijacking” it.
Warning, this thread is filled with disgusting assumptions about pople with disabilities. A person who is obese may be battling cancer, endocrine disease or any numbers of other diseases. In this case mentioned perhaps arthitis is the problem. Yet the greatest problem seems to be a growing hatred or fear of those with disabilities which just may include veterans or first responders. The message taken from this page is Roanoke either doesn’t want to see people with disabilities, hide them away, or would like a return to a dark past in our state history, a past that had great influence in a European country in the late 1930s. It was in Virginia eugenics were born, and later aadapted in Germany under the Nuremberg laws. The rest is history and
with such an infamous history, does thinking person not realize that disability can happen any time any place? A car wreck can disable, disease can disable etc., etc., etc. Yet the most disabling factor in this thread are attitudes toward disabilities, after all it could happen to you. Drive down the length of Jefferson St. and see if there are any handicapped parking places and it will be more than obvious, the city doesn’t want disabled people taking up space, it might ruin the image of the city to see someone in a wheelchair, or on a walker. Aging is real and often disability comes with aging, who knows it could happn to you, then and only then would comments contained within this thread would open so many closed eyes and minds.
Catspaw, the anger you see directed at handicapped people on this thread is from 2 or 3 anonymous individuals. They are not at all necessarily reflective of Roanoke.
Suzie, Tons folks have moderated and liberated their political and personal views after reading your bile. Not just DaveH. That’s why I say you’re a liberal embed. You are doing a great job turning republicans, tea baggers, conseratives and libertarians into democrats.
You are to be congratulated.
The only person to turn more conservatives into liberals that I know of is the Rush. Way to go Suzie!
Why are the parking police timed on their route? Think how much “time” the officer could have saved had he decided to be resonable.
#72 “The message taken from this page is Roanoke either doesn’t want to see people with disabilities, hide them away, or would like a return to a dark past in our state history, a past that had great influence in a European country in the late 1930s.”
No, that would be the message of folks like suzie and Randall.
If Conservatives want to bash fat people, can you start with Limbaugh?
#74 I too have noticed that a fair number of people who used to have more right-leaning views have shifted to the left after being bombarded by suzie’s nonsense. The Dems need to hire her/it to infiltrate more blogs — if that isn’t how she started out anyway.
#75 I would assume to make sure they’re not just lolling around chatting, Harold.
Catspaw, the anger you see directed at handicapped people on this thread is from 2 or 3 anonymous individuals.
There is no anger directed at the handicapped. The anger is for the liberal politicians who trivialize true disability by allowing a bunch of fatsos in their 30s and 40s to get special privileges because of conditions brought on by self-neglect.
Why does the left always have mischaracterize, demonize, and lie?
Lets see it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this out parking enforcement was just doing his JOB. Seems Joyce knew she was breaking the law & needs to get tags if she cannot properly hang the placard on her mirror. Roanoke needs to wise up and quit being such CRY BABIES WHEN IT COMES TO PARKING TICKET….A parking ticket at Virginia Tech is $36. So stop all the crying and just pay the ticket & say LESSON LEARNED….Since YOU BROKE THE LAW.
The only person to turn more conservatives into liberals that I know of is the Rush.
Right. Thatt’s why two-thirds of Americans now describe themselves as conservative, and the GOP took 63 House seats last fall. Brilliant ANALysis as usual, Cold.
LMAOOOOO.
I think Dan needs a BIG FAT F too for writing such a stupid article…SHE BROKE THE LAW DAN obviously you like Joyce think you are above the law. Maybe Dan needs to ride around in the clown car all day…
#74 I too have noticed that a fair number of people who used to have more right-leaning views have shifted to the left after being bombarded by suzie’s nonsense.
The people you’re talking about…Dave H, OJ, Ron, and Cold all have the John McCain syndrome. They want so strongly to be liked by the “ruling” establishment, they will say whatever it takes for that to happen. Whatever conservative “principles” they once claimed to have go out the window.
Because if you watch what happens to ANYONE who voices conservative thought in here, no matter how mildly they do it, they get viciously personally attacked by the leftwingers. Folks everyone agrees are polite and non-caustic like Big Momma get treated very rudely. The wishy-washy folks see that and don’t want the same treatment. And these same people crave approval and attention by being seen as “reasonable” so much, they’ll trash their formerly professed beliefs in hopes of getting “Post of the Day” and maybe a good bio write up. I find I’m hardest on people like that because I can’t stand phonies. It’s much easier to take the loons who make no bones about where they stand like Kristen, Sandi, and Gdad.
#82 Two-thirds? Haaa, haaa, haaa.
Forty-three percent (43%) of voters say they are conservative when it comes to fiscal issues such as taxes, government spending and business regulation. Thirty-seven percent (37%) characterize themselves as moderates in this area, while 14% are fiscal liberals.
When it comes to social issues like abortion, public prayer and church-state topics: 36% say they are conservative, 29% moderate and another 32% liberal.
28% of Likely Voters say they are BOTH fiscal and social conservatives.
#77 Why I’m sure that the right wingers here include that “fatso” (using their word) Viagra-popping addict in their criticisms.
The Tea Party’s approval numbers are lower than Obama’s. That must really sting. . .
#84 Big Momma polite and non-caustic? Oh please.
Make that “loons” who beat your ignorant, crass, boorish and dishonest self like a drum!
Teresa, As Dan inferred above. “F” the law in this case. The officer had the discretion to not write the ticket when he clearly saw she had the permit. This is not the 1930′s. Nor is it a fascist society…yet…
IMO, the outrage is the reasoning behind the law and the fine in the first place. It’s against the law to display the handicap placard on your dashboard rather than your rear view mirror because the poor, able-bodied police officer might have to get up off of his rear to look for it. Go tell that reasoning to the face of someone who needs assistance just to be able to stand or walk at all. Heaven forbid a police officer should experience a minor inconvenience in order to make life easier for a disabled person.
The current law is what it is, and she was in violation, so I don’t have a beef with the officer who wrote the ticket. He didn’t know Joyce, she wasn’t present when he wrote the ticket, and he didn’t know that the placard was in the wrong place because Joyce couldn’t physically hang it on the mirror…as far as he knew the owner of the car was just being lazy. It’s his job to enforce the law, no matter how ridiculous the law may be.
I do hope that they forgive the ticket in light of the true circumstances….and hopefully that particular code will be revisited.
Fanatical rule-followers always are entertaining.
Fyi folks, “Teresa” initially posted under a first and last name. Someone from the same IP, and with identical-reading syntax as Teresa, tried to posted under a different female first and last name. It seemed obvious to me that it was the same person, and they seemingly were trying to pose as at least 1 person who they are not. So I deleted Teresa’s last name, and emailed her requesting she post under a single “handle.”
Those are the rules.
#82 Two-thirds? Haaa, haaa, haaa.
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/non-partisan-battleground-poll-2010-nearly-two-thirds-of-americans-identify-themselves-as-conse/blog-373573/?page=2
You should know better by now, bub.
@84, I couldn’t care less about being liked by other people, I’m not out to win popularity contests. People can either like me for who I am, or they can take a hike…it’s as simple as that. I say what’s on my mind, and if that pisses someone off, it’s their problem…not mine. Although, I don’t use that as a blanket reason to purposefully go around making enemies either. I’ve raised the hackles of people all over the spectrum because my personal philosophy cannot be pigeon-holed into a neat and tidy political label.
You might like to think you have an idea of the person I am, but you haven’t a clue at all. But thanks for trying anyway, I guess.
I saw her last name, and I was wondering if she was the meter maid’s wife and was bitter about the flack he was taking.
“It’s against the law to display the handicap placard on your dashboard rather than your rear view mirror because the poor, able-bodied police officer might have to get up off of his rear to look for it. ”
Gotta work off the donuts somehow. And, as our mayor assures us, there’s no shame in taking exercise in the fresh air!
No YOU should know better…funny you have been all about quoting Gallup lately but for this you go to some obscure poll we never heard of…imagine that.
“Americans’ political ideology at the midyear point of 2011 looks similar to 2009 and 2010, with 41% self-identifying as conservative, 36% as moderate, and 21% as liberal.”
41% is not two-thirds and it never will be even in your warped world.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148745/political-ideology-stable-conservatives-leading.aspx
And here is the stat that should worry you:
“By 44% to 35%, more independents are moderate than conservative” You cannot win without them!
#93 “Somewhat” conservative is what you’d call liberal, suzie, and you know it.
You should know better by now, toots.
#92 Another person with a female name who can’t follow the posting rules joining suzie? Whoda thunk?
@94. True Dat. Suzie just likes everything in a neat box. Shes still trying to figure out how to put that round peg in a square hole.
Probably why she couldn’t cut it as an “engineer” and took early retirement and is living off us taxpayers now.
Re: #99
I thought it had been established some time ago that she was a receptionist in an engineering office who married the boss and quit working once she hooked onto the gravy train.
Dan,
The caption for the photo says it was submitted by Joyce. Did you question the time stamp?
If the stamp (8/17/2011)is correct, isn’t it odd that she would take a picture of how she displays her placard one week before receiving the ticket in question (8/24/2011)?
I agree it is very possible the time stamp may be incorrect, but in that case you may suggest she take another picture as evidence with her to court if she intends to fight the ticket.
She doesn’t need to take the picture to court, Big Momma. The parking officer snapped a picture, too. Same thing.
Something tells me it’s not going to court.
Pretty sure it’s the job of the cops to come up with evidence, not the people they ticket.
@100. I stand corrected.
@103 Kristen,
Are you saying defendants should never present evidence to prove their innocence? I thought the photograph would be useful to prove her argument.
@102 Dan,
Thanks for the update, I will assume since you didn’t answer that you didn’t question the time stamp. I realize she doesn’t need to even go to court, but it is sometimes wise to prepare your own evidence.
Well best of luck to her, not only with ticket but also I wish her the best with her health.
“Are you saying defendants should never present evidence to prove their innocence? ”
No, BM, I’m saying what most people know. She doesn’t have to. And she doesn’t have to “prove” anything.
I’m troubled by the dearth of basic civics knowledge out there.
#106 BM is spending too much time worrying about whether I’m married or own pets to learn civics. Pretty creepy, but there it is.
101 Astute observation, Big Momma. But no ‘victim’ would ever lie. Certainly none of Dan’s would.
@106 Kristen,
I understand she doesn’t have to prove anything. She can choose to pay the ticked or go to court or not. The court will find her guilty in her absence. If she chooses to go to court, she would be well suited to bring evidence to support her cause including pictures, proof of medical conditions limiting her ability to properly display the placard etc.
There has been no argument made that the way she displayed the placard is according to the law. It is agreed upon that she did not display the placard according to the law. The ticket however wrong it may be, was written according to the law however stupid it may be.
@107 Gdad,
Don’t flatter yourself. I just questioned your marital status because you are infatuated with Suzie and Pammala following their every word and anticipating their comments,in obvious need of companionship. Talk about creepy.
@108 Suzie,
It was an observation and question that Dan didn’t even address. I thought it was a valid question. Either he was so eager to stick it to “the man” with this column and was embarrassed he missed such a fact, he didn’t care because he got his article or perhaps he did question the time stamp and received an acceptable answer.
However Dan didn’t address my question so I have no idea.
#109 You’ve questioned my marital status before and been assured by folks who know me, including Dan, that I’ve been married for many years.
BTW, how do you know that “suzie” and “pammala” are even women? We know they CLAIM to be, but so what?
“Pretty sure it’s the job of the cops to come up with evidence, not the people they ticket”
Looks like you should listen to your own little civics lesson there Kristen. You have done an excellent job in demonstrating that while it is true that there is a dearth of actual civics and legal knowledge out there, there is no shortage of armchair lawyers who think they know the law because they watch Nancy Grace.
From reading the column and every post here, it would seem that the facts are not in dispute and there is no question that there is plenty of evidence, even the driver’s own confession, that the placard was improperly displayed under the law. The issues is that people disagree with the law in this case and that the defendant in this case is making an affirmative defense that while her actions were a technical violation of the law, her physical impairment was of a nature that would excuse the violation and that she should not be found guilty. For an affirmative defense to succeed, it is incumbent on the defendant to show that there are facts in addition to the ones that led to the defendant being charged and that those additional facts are legally sufficient to excuse the defendant.
In other words, the defendant does have to prove something.