Liberty U needs state money to build med school? UPDATED
Tim Ross | Wikimedia Commons
A subcommittee of the Virginia Tobacco Commission yesterday recommended giving $12 million to Liberty University to help it launch a medical school. Here’s the story from my colleagues Mason Adams and Sarah Bruyn Jones.
But the recommendation, which will be voted on by the full commission Sept. 29, raises this question: why does the proudly “private” evangelical university need any state money at all for this? It’s already flush with taxpayer cash as a result of the “online university” it runs.
Last year, Liberty took in federal grants and proceeds from taxpayer-guaranteed student loans that totaled $445 million. (Just five years ago, its total annual revenues were about $150 million.) Most of that new money comes came from its online operation, modeled after certain other dubious for-profit “online universities” such as the University of Phoenix, Strayer and Ashford universities. Update: Liberty University Chancellor Jerry Falwell Jr. disputes these numbers, as detailed here.
Liberty has built a snowless ski slope on Candler Mountain (which it rechristened “Liberty Mountain”) and it’s gobbling up commercial and industrial property in Lynchburg. It’s the biggest business in that city, and it receives more federal money than any educational institution in the commonwealth.
Liberty University Chancellor Jerry Falwell Jr.
Liberty Chancellor Jerry Falwell Jr. was kind of bragging about how big Liberty has gotten and how flush its finances are as recently as Wednesday, as he introduced Texas Gov. Rick Perry to a big crowd at the university.
In his introductory remarks (watch the video), Falwell said that Liberty is now the “biggest university in Virginia, and the 8th largest of all colleges in the United States, and the world’s largest Christian university.” That’s ALL because the startling growth of its online university.
Falwell also bragged that Liberty recently earned an AA credit rating from Standard & Poors, and that it’s one of only 78 universities in the nation with that rating or higher.
“S&P gave Liberty a positive outlook but they gave President Obama and the United States a negative outlook, so we’re proud of that,” Falwell added.
Make what you want to out of that dig. What Falwell neglected to mention is that the vast majority of the university’s revenue came from taxpayers, or is guaranteed by taxpayers. It kind of runs against the concept of a “private” university.
So Liberty has plenty of money to create that med school. They don’t need the Tobacco Commission money. (They had asked for $18 million).
That money should go to help the small businesses that it’s supposed to, rather than “private” universities that already are gobbling taxpayer money like a body-builder swallows steroids.
September 16, 2011 - 8:00 AM
and it receives more federal money than any educational institution in the commonwealth.
This is just an out-and-out lie. The money comes from the students. LU receives no federal money compared to say UVa which gets millions to “study” stuff like non-existent man made global warming
It’s like saying bingo parlors receive federal money because patrons blow their welfare checks there.
of course then there’s this from the bama:
At least four other companies have received stimulus funding only to later file for bankruptcy, and two of those were working on alternative energy.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/15/despite-stimulus-funding-solyndra-and-4-other-companies-have-hit-rock-bottom/#ixzz1Y7KLNJQC
what a stupid failure he is…..omg = obama must go
I really think the money could be better spent on inner city public education who have too many and too severe budget cuts for the past two years. It should be invested back into the children. With all this talk of “wasteful” spending and a “projected” surplus for the state, why are we allowing law makers to make this decision? So much for separation of church and state!
I’m thinking that report is a bit skewed. I agree they don’t need nor should they get state money for a med school but the loans and grants are for the students to go to an accredited school which it is. I agree with Suzie in the comparison to bingo but lets not start with the global warming issue. That’s a typical attack that the right uses on the left when they can’t find anything else to add. By the way, I’m on the right but very tired of the tactics that both sides use.
If everything Falwell says is true, then they don’t need state money. Personally, I wouldn’t go to Liberty and I strongly discourage others from going. My faith is the Mother Theresa kind of faith-not all for the show. I have always felt the Falwells’ faith to be stash the cash and dash.
Will their publicly funded medical school teach *all* medicine? Including specialties and procedures they don’t agree with?
Jerry Jr. should raise money the old fashion way…lock yourself in a tower and tearful beg for money claiming that G-d will “take you home” if you don’t get the $12 million you need to expand your empire.
MD,
The vast majority of Liberty’s revenue come from its online university operation. I encourage you to read up on these things — the percentage of students who are using federal grants or GSLs, their graduation rates, the students’ loan default rates, etc. For a period my daughter worked for one of these outfits. It got to the point where she started feeling dirty going home every day. So she found another job.
separation between church and state only means that they cannot pass a law that is strictly based on one religion, learn your Constitution or dont try and quote from it.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I’m sure God will provide Liberty with the appropriate funding if it’s in His plan that they have a med school.
Trusting a school like that with anything that looks like hard science is just a bad idea.
#2 Of course no company that got federal money under a Republican has ever failed, right, pammala? Of course they have. And I wonder how many companies total in the U.S. failed during that same time?
And like it or not, “green” jobs have grown faster than most job sectors in recent years, even under Bush. Do you know who else was pushing green jobs as important to the U.S.? Why, John McCain and virtually every other Republican in 2008. The need for green jobs was a part of McCain’s campaign.
Yep, this is just another meaningless right-wing stupidity. pammala got her marching orders from Rush or whomever and didn’t even stop to think.
“separation between church and state only means that they cannot pass a law that is strictly based on one religion, learn your Constitution or dont try and quote from it.”
No, that’s not what it means. Why don’t we refer to the USSC on this, and not bloggers.
7.Jerry Jr. should raise money the old fashion way…lock yourself in a tower and tearful beg for money claiming that G-d will “take you home” if you don’t get the $12 million you need to expand your empire.
Comment by Brendan — September 16, 2011 @ 8:55 am
Brendan,
I’m not a big fan of the Falwell’s, but I have been involved in fund raising for colleges, public & private, for more than 25 years. While I have, from time to time, prayed for guidance and strength in my fund raising efforts I have never locked myself away in a tower, tearfully begged for money nor have I ever threatened a prospective donor with God’s wrath. I have found it much more effective to meet face to face with donors, explain clearly what I was asking for, and explain clearly the benefits of the cause for which I was soliciting funds.
@pammala…
Oh so this means we should equally fund all religious institutions, right? I mean if Liberty can receive state funding then Jewish/Muslim/Atheist/multi-denominational private learning institutions should be welcome to receive the same amount of funding! Just to make things fair, right, and just.
With Obamacare coming, does Virginia even need another medical school?
“Jerry Jr. should raise money the old fashion way…lock yourself in a tower and tearful beg for money..”
Man, that started to sound like something a liberal would do for a second there.
and that is exactly what He’s doing…lol, dontcha know.
kristen, that is a direct quote form the Constitution but you still dont believe it>..my my what comprehension
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
#13 Ron (and MMM), I think you might be missing the reference to Oral Roberts, who in 1987 famously declared that unless he raised $8 million in one month, God would “call him home.” Proving that there’s a sucker born every minute, Roberts raised $9.1 million. Actually, it might have been a double reference, since the Bakkers were well-known for their tears.
Rev. Falwell was raised in a home plagued with alcoholism and violence. He started a church in a soda warehouse after college and God used him mightily to build it to what it is now. Liberty University is a beacon of light where God is shaping future leaders of our society in many professions.
What a wonderful story of God’s grace and redemption. Millions around the world have been and are still being impacted by the ministry of Rev. Falwell. What a testimony to what God can do with a life that is truly dedicated to Him.
Lest you forget, this is also an economic growth project where jobs will be created and money infused into the local economy. If any other establishment where in the same situation I expect you and many others would be applauding the job creation and positive economic impact and not chastising whether Liberty deserved the money or not. It’s the economy, stupid!
Dan –
I don’t know anything about this committee or where the money will come from, so I will refrain from commenting on that issue. However, you are wrong to state that Liberty received ANY money from the federal government – it’s students did. If I had a “Rant and Rave” blog, one of my first Rants would be reporters and commentators who don’t do their research first. Perhaps LU could offer you a refresher course.
Here is the truth about the 445 million:
http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=35605
@13…
Oral Roberts certainly thought it was a good strategy, but for all the tears, it still came across as the equivalent of “jumping the shark”. I’d be willing to bet the lion’s share of private donations will come from folks who buy into the inevitable pitch that such a school will promote “Christian Medicine”, and opposed to the sterile and non spiritual plain ole medicine. It’s a time honored marketing strategy and I fully expect my next Liberty University Magazine serve up such a traditional marketing fare.
#21 Big question for is why this money simply wasn’t invested to expand a place that already exists? A lot cheaper and more efficient. Seems that would be the conservative way.
Justin, I will refrain from casting aspersions on LU’s online university program specifically, but you need to understand that the business model it’s based on it THE principal nexus of fraud and abuse in federal higher education funding in the United States today.
The clever schemers in outfits such as Ashford University, Strayer and some others have created a system under which highly-paid recuiters are trained to seek out recent GED recipients and sweet talk them into signing up for their online programs to “earn a degree” and gain all that that can confer in the future. At the same time, they also are trained to sign them up for taxpayer-guaranteed loans and grants. And usually, the “tuituion” is very close to the maximum student loan they can receive. That is no coincidence.
Sadly, these students “graduate” at a rate that is dwarfed by students on campus. Sadly, the large majority of these “students” default. Taxpayers are left holding the bag while the execs of these hugely profitable institution earns as much as 40 or more times what Harvard pays its president per year.
They are, IMHO, scams designed to wring as much taxpayer-funded grants and taxpayer-guaranteed loans out of the government as possible while delivering a substandard “college education.” And it’s a shame.
gdad – looks like to me God honored Oral Roberts by sending him the money. Your point would be valid if he had only raised 7 million. But then again, God may have called him home thus validating his claim—- we’ll never know.
Pammala, what you just put there is an actual “direct quote”. What you had above wasn’t even close. It says nothing about “one religion”, far less “strictly based”. Neither has it even been interpreted that way.
Mark, we’re assured that government money can’t create jobs. So why would a “medical school” at Liberty be any different?
Gdad….I was so disappointed when he got that money. I was really looking forward to hearing his explanation about why he was still alive once the deadline passed.
God didn’t “honor” Oral Roberts…a bunch of gullible marks got conned into sending him their hard-earned money. The same gullible marks that fund Pat Robertson’s expensive lifestyle.
I do not know what the graduation rate fo LU online is but I do know several people personally who have benefited from their program.
Dan,
I’m a little confused. I’m saying that they don’t need the money. I’m also saying that the grants, loans and such the students take out are not a violation of the separation of church and state. They can be used at any accredited school (which LU is). With all the money LU make online they don’t need my tax money to build a med school. As for the defaults and such. the school has nothing to do with that. I went to a private college that encouraged me to get my loans and made it so easy all I had to do is come in and sign the paper. All while telling me I could defer them until I started making the big bucks. Guess what….never made the big bucks. I’m still under those loans and will be until the day I die. It’s got nothing to do with the school. It’s the whole student loan business in general. Needs a vast overhaul. BTW, I wouldn’t encourage any or my kids to go to LU. Much better choices out there. Interesting fact: DCTalk (Toby Mac and Michael Tate) went to LU. Toby is on his own and Michael is now front man for the Newsboys. On my top 10 for favorite music.
#26 Don’t know, will, seems like to me people who earned that cash working jobs sent Oral the money, not God. And of course Roberts was “called home,” but not until 22 years after that 1987 scam.
#27 I can remember thinking the same thing, Kristen. Roberts won’t get the money and he’ll still be alive and what will he say then?
Actually, he probably would have just claimed he misheard God, that he really only needed to to raise something $5.8 million (or whatever number ending in “8″ that fit).
Folks in Southside have been trying to get the state to establish a four year state supported university in that region for sometime. I think this would be a much better economic engine for the region than giving Jerry Falwell state money for waht is probably an unneeded med school. Just because Bob mcDonnell and Kenny C. are in Falwell’s pocket and the Falwellian enterprises support their political agenda does not make it right to give direct grants of state taxpayers money to sectarian schools,
Virtually every statewide Republican candidate is required to got to Lynchburg and genuflect to Falwell and sign the pledge in order to be a viable candidate.
Some day an enterprising journalist will do a full investigation and expose’ on the Tobacco Commission and the amount of waste represented. Awarding money, especially under “Special Projects” , is not based on the merits of a project but on political and power issues. There is still a chance that this grant will not be awarded when the full Commission meets but that is doubtful since most of the decisions are made prior to the Commission meetings and out of the light. This is the same commission that sent a Delegate and a staffer to the Paris Airshow (budget in the tens of thousands) with the false expectations that they could actually influence creation of jobs in VA. Doing economic development is already a function of a state agency, VEDP. WASTE, WASTE and WASTE
I’m still wondering Bio101 class is like at LU and if “By the grace of God” is an acceptable answer on the final exam?
gdad – God laid it on the peoples hearts to support the ministry voluntarily, what a concept- people helping people without a government mandate.
and Kristen – He did get the money so it looks like he was right and succeeded and your hateful wishing for his failure —–failed.
gdad – do you have a list – I want to be sure and vote for them.
#37 What list, will. Not sure what post you’re referring to.
@36 – In defense of Will’s position (which I disagree with but that doesn’t really matter), if people want to give money in that manner, it is their money to give.
However, what I think is a shame is that the collected money is not then distributed to the needy…as the Bible dictates.
Apparently only some of God’s words are abided by…the less convenient ones tend to be overlooked.
will-God might have laid it on the peoples hearts but Roberts laid it on thick.
You claim “God” if you want but a healthy dose of guilt, and pressure from the pulpit, help the most to separate a man from his money.
I’ll leave the economic arguments to the rest of you… What alarmed me most about this story was Falwell’s quote:
“S&P gave Liberty a positive outlook but they gave President Obama and the United States a negative outlook, so we’re proud of that,” Falwell added.
Looks like his hate for the president far exceedes his love for our nation. From the snideness of his comment, he comes across as gloating about America’s current economic condition…it’s the same “well, I’ve got mine, screw you” attitude. Who cares if others are suffering?! So much for sharing the mind of Christ (Phil. 2:4).
Brendan – as a Biology major at Liberty I can tell you firsthand that ‘by the grace of God’ is not an answer on any of the exams in any of the Biology courses. The goal of Liberty is to train students to integrate into culture with all the knowledge, skills, and abilities of any secular university while still retaining Christian morals, viewpoints, and perspectives. All Biology courses are taught from an evolutionary standpoint to allow us to understand what, how, and why modern science teaches what it does. The only way to engage with culture is to understand it, which is why paleontology courses are taught using the conventional timescale (4.6 billion year old earth) and biology classes are taught under the theory of evolution.
And let’s be honest, no hospital cares what your beliefs are when there’s a dying man on the operating table. They care if you can save his life. If Liberty can train medical students the way they train their law students (who have a higher percentage of students passing the bar than most universities) then I believe the money to be well spent.
will, I don’t think that any con artist makes his money at the hand of God, do you?
I usually root for the bad guys to fail…so shoot me.
On the upside, the poor fools who sent him their cash got to underwrite Ole Oral’s daughter-in-law sexting students!
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2007/10/18/oral-roberts-shaken-by-scandal.html
“What emerged was a portrait of an extravagant lifestyle largely underwritten by university funds: a private jet often used for personal travel, including a senior trip to Orlando for one of the Roberts girls; shopping binges by Roberts’s wife, Lindsay, that totaled tens of thousands of dollars; 11 renovations in 14 years to the Roberts home on campus, and a stable of horses for the kids. More disturbingly, the reports included suggestions of sexual improprieties by Lindsay with underage young men. She allegedly spent the night with an underage male at a university guest house on nine occasions and repeatedly drove around with and sent text messages to underage boys late at night, far past the citywide curfew.”
Greeeeat stewardship of Godgiven funds.
Morris,
Did you notice that Falwell’s statement that Perry is a supporter of the NRA got many more cheers than what Falwell said about Perry’s piety?
That was pretty telling . . . at a Christian university, of all places.
#42 Thanks for the information, Timbo.
46.Dan, I posted this once and I see you already deleted it. You can stop me from posting the truth here but we will take other action to stop you from lying about Liberty University and smearing its good name.
I know from your previous blogs that you are blinded by your hate for Liberty University but that does not give you license to print fabrications.
The excerpt below from your blog is a complete fabrication. Liberty has never participated in any activity even remotely resembling what you describe. I suggest strongly that you retract your false statements immediately!
Here are the facts:
http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=35605
Jerry Falwell, Jr.
Chancellor, Liberty University
Dan Casey’s lie for the day: You see, in recent years, Liberty has hopped on the for-profit online university bandwagon. That’s largely a scam, and it’s growing so quickly that last year, for the first time, student loans beat out credit cards as the number one form of debt in this nation.
The scam works like this: online universities hire recruiters, aka telemarketers, who sit in cubicles and make cold calls. Each day, the telemarketers are furnished a list of people who have recently earned their General Equivalency Diploma. Which means in most cases they are high-school dropouts.
The telemarketers call up these dropouts with slick sales pitches about their futures, and how much better off they will be with a college degree. Then they offer to sign them up for college, AND, at the same time, the recruiters sign up the students for government grants and loans that cover the cost of their tuition.
The money goes from lender banks to these universities. Rarely if ever does it pass through the students’ hands. But they are on the hook for the loans.
Later, most of these students drop out. And most of them default on their loans. And the government — i.e. taxpayers — pays off those the banks that made the loans, then the government goes after the dropouts.
This is the setup under which Liberty University has grown, in just a few years, from 12,000 students to more than 60,000. At least 52,000 of those are enrolled online.
It’s also one of the reasons that the formerly debt-plagued university is able to create snowless ski slopes on mountains in Lynchburg, and why it’s buying up former shopping centers in that city.
Comment by Jerry — September 16, 2011 @ 3:35 pm
Dan,
Didn’t see that part…and I’m not really surprised. It’s just more idolatry, trusting in our own devices and our human ways of violence rather than placing our dependence on God as Jesus did. It’s kind of like the Roman legionaires who, when forced to be baptized by Emperor Constantine, kept their sword hands above the water so as not to be completely “tied down” by their faith…
Dan @3:31
Wonder if they got a chance to cheer about his exection record.
Jerry, I have deleted nothing.
1) I approved both of your comments.
2) I updated the earlier post with a long passage form the article on Liberty’s web site disputing the News & Advance analysis.
3) I updated this post as well with a note that you dispute those numbers and a link to the Liberty U article.
That’s what I did.
Kristen – consider the source and show me the proof.
Sorry gdad – I meant dave —–”Virtually every statewide Republican candidate is required to got to Lynchburg and genuflect to Falwell and sign the pledge in order to be a viable candidate”.
I get you two guys mixed up
Sorry, Dan. I still don’t see my earlier post so I assumed you deleted it. We take these matters very seriously. Liberty is a non-profit university. All of its funds go back into fulfilling its mission. Besides paying salaries that are low compared to other universities in the state, none of Liberty’s money goes to stockholders or investors as is the case with for-profit universities. Thank you for updating the earlier post. I will take a look at it now. Jerry
will
Have no fear. I am sure you’ve already voted for the most recent ones on a straight ticket–assuming that you vote.
TimboSlice Good post. It’s good to hear from someone who actually has first hand knowledge of LU.
Dan, I appreciate the modifications being made in such a timely manner. Ron Brown, formerly with the Roanoke Times, and now with Liberty’s News Office tells me you have always been above board and honest. I see now that he was right. Thank you and I hope to meet you in person at some point. Jerry
Jerry,
Let’s have lunch!
Great. Here come’s another bully threatening legal action and getting puffed up when called out for his actions.
Dan
Are we not all hypocrites, you included? Let us not forget it was Obama that made a lot of LU’s online success possible.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/31/us/politics/31obama.html
What say ye, Dan?
J. Alexander
will, how many links do you want to that particular story? And how did you possibly not hear about it when it came out?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2007/10/18/oral-roberts-shaken-by-scandal.html
http://www.americablog.com/2007/10/oral-roberts-university-facing-huge.html
“Mrs. Roberts has personally spent the night in the ORU guest house with an underage male on nine separate occasions. (Draft report references photos of these events as well as logs from security.”
http://articles.cnn.com/2007-10-15/us/oru.suit_1_new-allegations-sexual-behavior-sicken?_s=PM:US
University president’s wife ‘sickened’ by allegations
LAWSUIT
“Richard Roberts and wife Lindsay appear on CNN’s “Larry King Live” last week.The wife of the president of Oral Roberts University is denying allegations of improper behavior, saying the claims “sicken” her.”
I don’t know how many you want. But then most televangelists end up getting shown for what they are. The only one who seems immune is Billy Graham.
Jerry, no one’s posts show up automatically. There’s no conspiracy.
Looking forward to it, Dan.
By the way, Dave, I did not threaten legal action and, Kristen, what does any of this have to do with Oral Roberts or Billy Graham? Liberty University is not a television ministry and there have been no similar scandals here. In the 1970s and early 80s, my father’s TV ministry did assist LU but that ended in 1988 and Liberty has always been an independent university. My father shifted his primary focus away from his TV ministry and shut down Moral Majority during the last twenty years of his life. He then devoted most of his time to building and strengthening Liberty University. The TV ministry and the political activity are all the public ever really saw so there are a lot of public misperceptions about Liberty University.
There are a many subpar medical students graduating from subpar med schools as it is. Virginia’s hospitals are at capacity as far as training students and there really isn’t enough teaching faculty out there. Adding another medical school makes no sense for the region. Quite frankly you want the better institutions to have medical schools, the ones that will generate research and advance care. I don’t see Liberty fitting that mold.
Scroll up, Jerry. Oral Roberts came up in the thread before you started posting. I have no idea if your father even knew Oral Roberts.
Jerry
“we will take other action to stop you from lying about Liberty University and smearing its good name”
If that is not an implied threat of legal action, then I haven’t read one.
At the very least it was an attempt to bully someone into not expressing
their opinion.
Mr. Falwell,
Thank you for correcting the lies put forth by folks who hate Liberty University. On behalf of this blog, I apologize for the hatred and falsehoods emanating from the left. I appreciate all the good LU has done, and I am honored to know a number of its graduates.
So there is no denial that Liberty University’s original existence and growth for a decade and a half, and the salaries of those who administered its’ growth, were underwritten by untaxed monies generated by Rev. Falwell in his televangelist persona. (And the in-kind assistance of advertisements for LU embedded in The Old Time Gospel Hour continued well after 1988). Further, pretending that government guaranteed student loan payments that are assigned in the names of individual students but used to pay tuition at LU are not revenues flowing to LU from the federal government is as disingenous as saying that Ralph Reed’s handling of lobbying money for Jack Abramoff was not essentially a legal money laundering strategy. Moral relativism also occurs among fundamentalists. Perhaps Jesus’ standard was if it’s legal it’s okay, just keep ahead of the PR curve…
Sir, with all due respect, to say “…we will take other action to stop you from lying about Liberty University” is essentially to threaten legal action. I have worked for lawyers for years and that lingo is fairly clear, at least in my opinion.
My personal concern about Liberty University is its law program in particular. I’m very uncomfortable with it to be frank. One of your students posted here earlier, quite eloquently I might add, and stated “The goal of Liberty is to train students to integrate into culture with all the knowledge, skills, and abilities of any secular university while still retaining Christian morals, viewpoints, and perspectives.” While I understand that one’s morality touches on every area of their life, I find it difficult to believe that certain laws of the land (Roe v. Wade is the obvious one but there are plenty of other examples) can be upheld in a judiciary system where Christian morality is sort of an essential part of understanding/interpreting the law…a pair of glasses through which the law is viewed. Since not everyone in the United States is a Christian, I do not believe our legal system should be weighted through “Christian viewpoints”.
It is very distressing to consider for me.
I wish Liberty U Law School would teach the New Testament version of the the ultimate punishment, rather than the Old Testament version.
I blame Reagan.
LU is a mess. Internally they don’t follow the bible very well. Heck the Falwell brothers can’t even share the parking lots.
#63 You don’t speak for this blog on anything. Why do we have to keep telling you this?
Once again Suzie presumes to speak for members of the blog. If she wants to apologize for herself and say she is opposed to or embarrassed by the comments made by others opn the blog, that is her prerogative. However to assuime that she can apologize “for” the blog as if she is its spokesperson is ludicrous and false anmd her apology assumes facts not in evidence. No lies were told. Opinions have been stated and facts have been interpreted. If Jerry Falwell or Suzie or any other poster wants to disagre, then lets hear their facts and the basis for their disagreement.
I can tell you that there are children in my family who have been taught in classrooms by teachers who are graduates of Liberty U at the elementary school level and those teachers attempted to insert creationism
into the curriculum and presented material in a manner that was objectionable to the parents and confusing for the students who were
not being indoctrinated in the same philosophy at home. If we had wanted our children to be indoctrinated in the evangelical tradition, we would have sent them to Christian fundamentalist schools.In my opinion, it is a violation of the seperation of church and state for sectarian schools to be given grants from local, state or federal governments. And whether Liberty University is paying dividends to stockholders or not, the school is still benefitting from a large influx of cash being produced by its online program. Until Mr. Falwell can show us completion rates and default rates for the students who enroll in his online empire and compare thopse to regular students I will continue to believe that this is
a deliberately designed program to attract federal and state dollars into the school.
Does the law school take a position on the death penalty?
Really,
12 million from the Tobacco Comission?
Just raise the fines in the “Liberty Way” code of conduct. Heck, 500 is cheap fine for an abortion, and , frankly, it’s not even in the same ball park as academic misconduct(also 500?)
They might also do a little “loss leader” and pay for some information. Heck right now the only motivation students have to rat each other out is the consequence of hell and damnation. If they provide a monetary incentive to rat each other out, they could make a fortune.
“The goal of Liberty is to train students to integrate into culture with all the knowledge, skills, and abilities of any secular university while still retaining Christian morals, viewpoints, and perspectives.”
———
How would that differ from, “The goal of X is to train law students to integrate into culture with all the knowledge, skills, and abilities of any secular university while still retaining Sharia Law morals, viewpoints, and perspectives”?
“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.” — Sinclair Lewis
Is this the law school that is supporting religion over constitution in Giles Co?
I can tell you that there are children in my family who have been taught in classrooms by teachers who are graduates of Liberty U at the elementary school level and those teachers attempted to insert creationism
into the curriculum and presented material in a manner that was objectionable to the parents and confusing for the students who were not being indoctrinated in the same philosophy at home.
I have nieces and nephews who have been tuaght in the classrooms b teachers who are graduates of state universities who have taught the hoax of man made global warming as if it were a scientific fact. It was objectionable to the parents and confusing to the students who were not being indoctrinated in the same philosophy at home.
If Jerry Falwell or Suzie or any other poster wants to disagre, then lets hear their facts and the basis for their disagreement.
You’ve already heard them. Students have a choice to spend their Pell grant money at whichever institution they choose. Some choose to use their grant at LU. Saying that is the same as “the federal government subsidizing LU” is a lie.
Funny, but Rush Limbaugh’s and Mark Levin’s favorite college doesn’t see it the same way as Suzie.
Yeah, Mike Scott. $500 to kill someone!! Sounds like a great deal doesn’t it??
“made by others opn the blog”
Umm, yeah dave, …what you said. I think Suzie speaking for the blog is a hell of a lot more coherent than you speaking for the blog.
It’s called a typo, Mark. We all make them. Check your keyboard, the o and p are right beside each other.
The last time I checked, this was Dan’s blog not Suzie’s.
#79 So, MMM, I hope you’ve had a chance to go back and see where you did in fact change Brendan’s name deliberately, not just once but four times. Or are you still denying it?
Hillsdale is anti-slavery, Dan?!? Suzie is too. Are you saying you are not??
“I have nieces and nephews who have been tuaght in the classrooms b teachers who…” Suzie @ 9:23 pm
“I think Suzie speaking for the blog is a hell of a lot more coherent than you speaking for the blog.” MM(M) @ 9:49 pm
I think I’ll go with Dave.
“Jerry”
I realize the chancellor is a modest man who doesn’t put on airs of self-importance, but I think he needs to be addressed with respect as in “Mr. Falwell” or “Mr. Chancellor”. Even though he signed his posts as “Jerry”, I would think even you leftwing snerts could summon up some manners and decorum when someone of his stature visits the blog.
Just my opinion.
Funny, but Rush Limbaugh’s and Mark Levin’s favorite college doesn’t see it the same way as Suzie
Very nice of Dan to post a link that proves conservatives were, in fact, the ones who opposed slavery during the Civil War. Thank you, Dan.
Because of the College’s anti-slavery reputation and its role in founding the new Republican party (Professor Edmund Fairfield was a leader at the first convention), many notable speakers visited its campus during the Civil War era, including Frederick Douglass and Edward Everett, who preceded Lincoln at Gettysburg.”
“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.” — Sinclair Lewis
When socialism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a smooth well-packaged well- marketed unvetted unthreatening-sounding empty suit. Oh wait. That’s already happened.
Remember Hitler wasn’t playing the monster exterminator yet when he was voted into power. He was a guy who had all the answers to the economic crisis.
@72
Marked… 500 bucks is the fine the school charges a student who chooses to have an abortion… if they are caught. At least that’s what’s listed in the Liberty Way student code of conduct. But yeah, considering it’s the same fine for academic fraud.
Here’s a summary of some of the fine and their value:
http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2005/07/27/the-ironically-named-liberty-university/
How they find out if someone has an abortion is not clear. It’s also not clear if father is on the hook for any fines, although, presumably if it was a Liberty fling, there are all kinds of fines that apply too a couple who have sex.
well lets just give it all to o-bama’s college, ,which one was that now, what were his grades, did he graduate? how would we know…quit lamblasting LU, you should have gone there instead of whatever school you selected, it surely shows.
What’s the deal with this fining and “liberty way” stuff? I’ve not heard of this.
#89 Go to LU, pammala? Speaking of a fallback school that accepts virtually anybody. If it’s where you want to go, fine, but…
For those of you who don’t read past MMM’s and suzie’s inane posts, Hillsdale also did this, which LU obviously doesn’t have the stones for:
“By this time, the College had announced that rather than complying with unconstitutional federal regulation, it would instruct its students that they could no longer bring federal taxpayer money to Hillsdale.”
#85 “Just my opinion.”
I have $1. Now you can get a cup of coffee.
#90 Come on, Kristen, they’re protecting their students from “Satin.”
Involvement with witchcraft, séances or other satanic or demonic activity – $500 fine
Kristen…
If you go to Liberty, you have to abide by a strict code of conduct. No surprise there. It’s straight up. They tell you that when you go to school there. If you poke around on the Internet, you can find the 46 page list of transgressions posted in a number of places. The link I posted has but a few.
When one “transgresses”, and gets caught, one accumulates points and one pays a fine.
I know several students who’ve paid fines for drinking alcohol. Which begs the question, how do you go from having a beer at your friend’s house to paying a fine for it? Apparently ratting your friends out not only keeps them a couple steps out of hell, but provides much needed revenue to the LU.
It’s a great revenue producing idea though. It’s a collection plate that derives mainly from the way people behave. My son had a couple of Liberty friends who would come to Va Tech on the weekends to be out of the watchful eye of Lynchburg secret service, yet, somehow, they were accused of drinking by witnesses, and suffered the consequences of paying the fines.
I’d really like to know how much LU gets from such fines from particularly how much they get for girls getting caught having abortions. Let’s hope, on a bunch of different levels, it’s not too much. There’s something kind of really, really sleazy about a place that opposes abortion but doesn’t have any problems collecting money as a consequence of it. I do wonder, exactly what line of reasoning placed the fine value at the same level as that of “academic dishonesty”.
If anyone has any insight into the intellectual processes that came up with this scheme, I’d love to hear it.
#85 BTW, suzie, you’ve used this routine in the past with Bush and Rash Limpbaugh. Please attempt to come up with something new. You know how some of the right-wing whiners on this blog get bored.
As gdad points out, it’s obvious that Hillsdale College views federal grants and loans as taxpayer support/subsidies. They brag that they’re the only college in the nation, or one the very few, that accept NO federal money. They’ve turned it into a component of their marketing.
Honestly MikeScott I’ve never heard of anything like that in my life. It’s got a very Vatican selling indulgences vibe.
At my chool we had an honor code, but the wages for getting caught breaking it were expulsion. We couldn’t buy our way out of trouble, the way they can at Liberty apparently.
“Apparently ratting your friends out not only keeps them a couple steps out of hell, but provides much needed revenue to the LU.”
That’s just gross. Talk about a completely non-academic atmosphere. We used to make fun of people in the USSR dropping the dime on their neighbors, and this goes on at what’s supposed to be a COLLEGE??
If there’s an actual pedagogical basis for this, I’d be interested to see it presented.
Liberty U considers assault/sexual assault to be the same “crime” as drinking an alcoholic beverage? They must, since the fine is the same for both. I would think the punishment for sexual assault would be immediate expulsion.
Drinking a beer and sexually attacking someone are considered equal in their eyes. Seriously skewed moral values in action.
The link that Mike Scott posted is from 2005. I wonder if the punishment/fines for some of the things listed have changed since then.
“Apparently ratting your friends out not only keeps them a couple steps out of hell, but provides much needed revenue to the LU.”
That’s just gross. Talk about a completely non-academic atmosphere. We used to make fun of people in the USSR dropping the dime on their neighbors, and this goes on at what’s supposed to be a COLLEGE??
Umm. I can’t imagine that every public university honor code doesn’t “ratting out your neighbor”
I’m certain every college honor code involves “ratting out your neighbor”.
From Virginia Tech’s site”
Additionally, as a student, you should consider this: if a classmate cheats, plagiarizes, or falsifies a test, quiz, or other assignment and earns a better grade than you, and this behavior goes unreported and unpunished, that person DEVALUES your degree! It’s true! Think about it. Then, get involved!“A
I suppose if you’ve never attend college, the workings of a honor code might be a surprise to you.
It sounds like Mike Scott is asking somebody to show some proof of the idea he concocted in the first place. LOL.
I’ll tell you what, with suzie parroting MMM and pammala parroting suzie, it’s becoming a regular right-wing pirate show in here. And just in time for Talk Like a Pirate Day! Aarrrr!
http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html
@100…
They seem to have taken the student code of conduct off of their public web site. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is also a fine for making it public.
Not to mention, as a student, you should consider this: if you see a classmate holding hands with a member of the opposite sex, it’s likely that classmate is getting more action than you, and that also DEVALUES your degree! It’s true! Think about it! You’re working hard and he may be too, but he’s having fun at the same time! Unfair!
Wow good idea, Dan!! Tell ya what, let Mike Scott know about your idea, and maybe he can claim that a friend of his told him that he had heard from someone up the street who heard on a news ‘story’ that it’s a fact that it happens at a university. Then he can ask anyone out there to help him prove it’s true. What a hoot!!
#104 It appears that you now have to have a password to see the code. Strange.
While all or most colleges urge students to report each other out for honor code violations — and some even make it an honor code violation if they prove you knew and didn’t report it — there’s a difference bwtween reporting cheating or stealing and ratting friends out for holding hands or watching an R movie.
Of course, suzie had already proven she isn’t aware of that difference. Sad commentary on her knowledge of higher education.
The only place I’ve heard of with a tolerance clause is West Point.
I wonder if the narcing student gets a cut of the fine?
Supreme Court caseMain article: Grove City College v. Bell
Under President Dr. Charles S. MacKenzie, the college was the plaintiff-appellee in the landmark U.S. Supreme Court case in 1984, Grove City College v. Bell. The ruling came seven years after the school’s refusal to sign a Title IX compliance form, which would have subjected the entire school to federal regulations, even future ones not yet issued. The court ruled 6-3 that acceptance by students of federal educational grants did fall under the regulatory requirements of Title IX, but limited the application to the school’s financial aid department.
In 1988, new legislation subjected every department of any educational institution that received federal funding to Title IX requirements. In response, Grove City College withdrew from the Stafford loan program entirely beginning with the 1988-89 academic year, and established its own loan program with PNC Bank.
Currently, Grove City is one of a handful of colleges (along with Hillsdale College, which did likewise after the aforementioned 1984 case) which does not allow its students to accept federal financial aid of any kind, including grants, loans, and scholarships.
Just some information related to an earlier post.
As a college student in the 1960s my college’s honor code was printed on every blue book used for exams. Additionally, any assignment completed outside of class had to have a cover sheet with the honor code printed on it. We had to sign the blue books and the cover sheet. When we did so we agreed to the following statement.
“The work I submit today is entirely my own. I did not receive nor do I have personal knowledge that any classmate received assistance in the completion of this assignment.”
It was simple, straightforward and clear. There was only one punishment for violations. That was expulsion from the college.
Ron
I went to the school with the oldest student honor code in the nation. And it worked very much as you described it and has been the model for most honor codes adopted by colleges and universities across the country. We would have laughed at an honor or behavioral code that allowed you to buy your way out of a violation by paying a fine. Sounds to me like LU
is more about the money than the morality. An interesting question would be what the university does with the proceeds of those fines after they are collected.
LU is a private school that receives no public funding. They don’t care if a bunch of liberals don’t like them upholding moral values. Y’all can go stick it.
Correction: No public money flows into HILLSDALE. Hundreds of millions of taxpayer cash flows into Liberty U.
I have always thought that there had to be a need for a new medical school in the state of VA which is why it took so llong for VA Tech to get a school. I am surprised that the State needs another school that is so close to Roanoke and Charlottesville as well as Richmond. How was this school approved when it has taken so long to get the school in Roanoke?
The Federal grants/student loans are given to the students to pay their tuition, books, etc. The money may be in the students names, but the schools receive it from them. To say LU doesn’t receive taxpayer money is ludicrous.
Ron, I just got my 2nd Degree from Virginia Tech last year and for every exam I took, I had to re-sign an honor code pledge. It read almost word for word from the one you posted.
Diverting to another topic in here about online universities… I see Strayer was mentioned. That’s where I got my first degree in Computer Information Systems many years ago. When I started there, they were only just starting to really develop an online degree program. Before it was an online school, it was a normal in-class college, though I don’t think it has the same accreditation ratings of your U of Maryland or Virginia Tech’s of the world. (However, that didn’t stop some of my credits from transferring into Virginia Tech)
When I went to Strayer, I ultimately didn’t pay one cent for tuition. I got all my tuition funded by my employer as a benefit of exceptional grades and exceptional work ethic.
I think Strayer and Phoenix brilliantly exploit this benefit offered by some of the bigger companies, particularly during the tech boom. One thing I noticed was that many of my classmates were active-duty military members across the globe, no doubt going to school on the government’s dime.
While I don’t think the education as a whole is better than a traditional college, Strayer’s is nothing to totally shrug off either. I took my classes online, but they weren’t exactly cupcake classes. One on Operating System Development was especially challenging. It simply breaks down into what topic you’re studying. Paying that much for a 2-4 year history degree would be absurd, but paying for a specialized technical degree there is perfectly fine for the currently-employed.
scott, Congrats on your degrees. The problem with for-profit online universities is that they spend FAR FAR more on marketing and recruitment than they do on education. They hire people for $40k a year to recruit. They have no admissions standards (beyond, can you qualify for government grants and loans, which they also sign you up for at the time of admission). They purchase lists of recent GED recipient and call them, appeal to their hopes and dreams, then sign them up. These people drop out at an astounding rate, and most of them never repay the loans the university signed them up for. The taxpayers make good on those loans.
These companies are making astounding profits, while delivering little in the way of degrees, and leaving taxpayers holding the bag for all the deadbeats they roped in. Now Liberty U is not-for-profit. But to the extent that it’s using the same model to finance its gargantuan expansion in recent years, the effect is the same.
I would like to know: what’s the graduation rate for on-campus LU students? What is the overall default rate for on-campus students? What’s the graduation rate for online LU students? And what is the overall default rate for all online students?
Jerry told us in another comment that LU graduates have a low default rate than other schools. That’s great — but notice the term “lower default rate” applies only to grads.
I wonder what it is for the dropouts?
Thanks Timbo!
I’ve wondered about that for awhile. It must be difficult to study something you know to be false and learn facts and see scientific evidence that might ultimately make you question your faith.
Dan,
Those are excellent points and I too would like to see that data.
I have a nephew working in the on-line recruitment department and his salary does not touch $40000 per year – which is itself is not an exorbitant salary. I also recently read where Yale and other Ivy league schools are realizing that on-line programs are the trend of the future and have begun offering such courses. As a teacher I personally prefer the classroom setting and that would be what I would want my children to experience. However I also realize that we live in a different world that the one I grew up in and that increasingly on-line education (or distance learning as it is sometimes called)will be the wave of the future. Do some universities take advantage and exploit this system – I am sure that they do – as have religion, medicine, politics – all human systems can be mis-used and exploit in order for people to make a buck. I am concerned about people defaulting on loans – not just educational loans but credit cards, housing loans and other loans as well. However I think it is the responsibility of those who make the loans to insure that the recipients can repay (which is difficult to determine – as people probably always INTEND to pay back these loans). However to place the fault on schools that perhaps have anticipated the educational trends of the future (and again I reiterate it is not a trend I particularly care for educationally – but I know MANY people who have benefited greatly from) I think is a not very objective – there are jsut too many other factors involved.
Academia is one thing, but theology as consumer sport? Why would ANYONE hire a LU student if they spent 4 years being brain washed and volunteer to waste 4 years of their formative life experience based on the “Liberty Way”? Prisons have equal candidates, on some level. In both ways, they will never adapt. Sadly, they will just bahhh and opt to join the NRA and other organizations to allow GUNS into the school ( http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2011/nov/16/2/liberty-university-oks-concealed-guns-campus-ar-1463719/ ), be forced to vote republican for a grade ( http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/voter-fraud-liberty-university ) – yet they cannot wear shorts, have tatts, watch R-rated films, nor think for themselves. Sheeple. I guess they need a campus to pray for the carnage amongst themselves, out of sexual frustration and academic freedom. Law School? what a fraud. Medical School? Unethical. Sad.