Tuesday’s column: Plaintiff intimidation, mobster-style
Isabelle Vautier | Wikimedia Commons
Note: I had a strange dream in which the Mafia was advising the Giles County School Board in the lawsuit over the 10 Commandments brought by a student and parent who wish to remain anonymous.
MEMO
From: Your goodfellas
To: The Giles County School Board
Subject: Da rat fink student who hauled your butts into court
Yo, Giles School Board members,
These pencil-necked schmucks at the ACLU, we got’em by the you-know-whats this time.
If them bozos think they can haul us into court, trying to get the Ten Commandments removed from our schools, they gottanutha thing coming.
So we all understand how we got here, here’s a little background. Because it’s easy to fuggedaboudit.
Back in 2010, when them nuts in the Freedom from Religion Foundation first began acting up about the First Amendment, youse school board members threw in the towel and took down the commandments.
We’re not bustin’ your you-know-whats or anything. That’s just facts. Youse folded faster than a tent revival preacher caught with a spinster schoolmarm. En flagrante delicto, they say in the old country.
Next, the churches and preachers got all up in arms, and the parents, too. They hammered the board to bring back the commandments.
The board did that, with the ruse that the commandments were a historical document important to the foundations of this country. Along with a bunch of other musty old papers like the Magna Carta.
So it’s history, see. Whaddaya know?
Then, we all crossed our fingers and hoped the ACLU and the Freedom from Religion Foundation would fall for da scam.
Well, you know what? Didn’t happen. They’re smarter than that. Now we’re in federal court. Before Judge Chewbanski, whatever. He’s younger and greener, see? Not like them other old geezer judges.
Problem is, we ain’t gotta case. The Supreme Court rulings on the First Amendment are pretty clear. They’ve already pretty much deep-sixed any argument we could make. Chewbanski’s no dummy.
Youse see, if the schools hadda just not axed the commandments to begin with, and just shut up and changed the displays to include other historical documents, everything probably woulda been copacetic.
That kinda thing is defensible. There’s rulings and all that support it. Capiche?
But now, the cat’s outta the bag. Everybody and their dead grandma knows the other historical documents were a smokescreen to get the commandments back up.
And the courts, they don’t like that kind of funny stuff. They’ve dumped other cases like that.
But don’t you worry ’bout this, because we got one more trick up our sleeve.
See, these plaintiffs, they’re anonymous – John Doe, Jane Doe. Whoever, whatever.
And they wanna stay anonymous. Mom and pop don’t want young junior Doe to get the you-know-what kicked out of him by the other students, if they knew he was da bum who sued. .
So what we do is, we force the court to reveal their names. It’s the most beauty-full strategy in the world.
And you know why?
Because we don’t have to put our loser of a case on trial.
See, the kid will get scared. Mom and pop, too. They don’t want their names out there, or junior gets tuned up at school, or mocked, or made fun of, day after day.
What mudda would subject her kid to such ridicule, scorn, and harassment?
So they drop the case rather than have their names get out.
And then, all our problems are over.
The commandments stay up in schools. The kid who sued clams up. The media goes away. The ACLU mouthpiece heads back to Richmond. Those kooks in the Freedom from Religion Foundation leave, too.
The whole thing blows over quicker than ice cream melts on a hunerd-degree day in Brooklyn. And you board members don’t have to pay no attorney fees to the ACLU because it was the plaintiffs who chickened out.
Problem solved. Everyone’s happy. A beauty-full thing, right?
We call this “The Soprano Strategy.” But instead of witness intimidation, it’s plaintiff intimidation.
Intimidation, schmintimidation. Who cares? We win. That’s what’s important.
Tony Soprano, hah, what a guy.
Bada bing!
October 18, 2011 - 6:00 AM
wonder exactly how many people in giles county object and how many are for it….if the majority are for it then let them post the commandments, simple.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
So how did this get twisted around to mean it’s ok to tell someone they can’t post the Ten Commandments on a wall? Read it again. You see the part about “prohibiting the free exercise thereof”? That means you can’t tell anyone not to do it. Yet, we’re putty in the hands of any religion other than Christianity. We make exceptions to dress codes, we change menus, we do whatever we have to so we can be “politically correct”. Is it because Christians are expected to “turn the other cheek” but someone who practices another religion might look for ways to kill you?
Bada bing indeed.
Washington releases names on anti-gay rights petition
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DOMESTIC_PARTNERSHIPS_SIGNATURES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-10-17-17-42-39
Maybe Bill Stanley is a part of this Mafia. In the story today about politicians moving into new districts, when Stanley was asked whether he was aware of Reynolds’ campaign staff trying to confirm whether he actually lives at the new place he rents, he replies: “Not that I know of, unless they want to get a face full of my Glock.”
Great redneck tough-guy response, Stanley. Wonder if this guy pulls a gun on everybody who walks up to his door. What an ass.
Answer these questions:
Who would be emotionally scarred for life by reading the ten commandments? (I know to not steal and kill are such a negative influence)!
More importantly, is a document placed on a wall “coercive” or an “endorsement”? (These dang political signs I keep reading, they got my head spinning because it coerces me to change my mind every time I see a new one!!!!)
How many religions have the Ten Commandments as part of their doctrine?
When are you going to grow up and write something with journalistic integrity, instead of this childish garbage?
#1 Sounds good, pammala. Which other laws are you willing to let people ignore if the majority vote to do so?
And, btw, you DO realize that students ware free to post them on their lockers and elsewhere all they want? Right?
Very funny Dan. If only you had taken the back woods religious nut redneck approach to your column it may had more appeal. We all know how the left leaning northern liberals love to paint us southerners with the same broad brush.
Personally I’m one of those people that see the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment as just that-the government shall not establish a state church and have us bow at it’s altar. To my knowledge it doesn’t read that the government is prohibited from acknowledging God in public. I guess it’s all in your interpretation.
If a majority of the folks in Giles county are in support of posting the Commandments, why should the will of the minority be served in our so called “democratic” society? Whatever happened to “majority rules”? I guess when you can’t actually vote on an issue the good folks of Giles Co. will just have to accept the interpretation of the Clause by some liberal judge and have it shoved down their throats by the ACLU and The Freedom from Religion nuts. Democracy my ars!
So Huntersdad,
Are you saying that you support the School Board’s effort to get the kid to drop the case by threatening to reveal his name?
“So how did this get twisted around to mean it’s ok to tell someone they can’t post the Ten Commandments on a wall?”
It hasn’t. The students are free to blanket their personal lockers with the Ten Commandments if they so choose (and some of them did). They are also free to pray in school, bring a Bible to school, etc. And the ACLU defends their right to do these things. That is the individual’s free exercise of religion.
The school, however, cannot post the Ten Commandments, because it is the law that students attend school, which means they are mandated to attend public school unless they can afford private school. Public schools are paid for with tax payer dollars, so all citizens are required by law to support public schools, regardless of their religious beliefs. That is why public schools cannot endorse a particular religion.
Wow, the ignorance is out in force on this one:
– “If a majority of the folks in Giles county are in support of posting the Commandments, why should the will of the minority be served in our so called “democratic” society?”
We have a constitutional republic, not a democracy. It is specifically designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority. That’s why the constitution was written in the first place, so that a bunch of yahoos couldn’t vote to have speech they didn’t like criminalized or confiscate your guns. Here’s some reading for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic
– “how did this get twisted around to mean it’s ok to tell someone they can’t post the Ten Commandments on a wall?”
The students are fully allowed, and have been posting the 10 commandments in school areas, such as their lockers, where it is considered speech by the students. The issue is that the government operated school cannot promote one religion over another. It’s obvious from the context of the case that is what the school board is doing. It’s really not that hard to grasp.
I would think the last thing a religious person would want is the government involved in promoting or sponsoring religion in any way. However, it seems the uninformed and historically ignorant will continue to push for that without any self-reflection when they claim to be a “small government conservative”.
When I read the story last week about the motion to reveal the plaintiffs, I knew Giles Co. was getting desperate. I hope the judge denies the motion and Giles Co. school board gets to sleep in the bed they made. When the Giles Co. voters figure out the school district is on the hook for a few million in legal fees, I think they may feel a bit different the issue.
I heard that the majority of Craig County residents believe race-based slavery should be legal. I guess that means it’s OK. After all, it’s majority rules, right or wrong.
If you truly believe in something, then you should stand up and give your voice to the matter.
If you are in something just for the money, then hide and call yourself doe #1.
http://www.odysseynetworks.org/video/In-Rural-Virginia-Furor-Erupts-Over-The-Ten-Commandments
I love it when libs use court orders, legislation from the bench and legal technicalities to get their way and then whine when smart lawyers use legitimate procedure such as the right to face your accuser against them. If these parents thought posting the Ten Commandments at the school would do their child such irreparable harm, they should be willing to take a stand publically and not hide behind the veil of anonymity.
“11.I heard that the majority of Craig County residents believe race-based slavery should be legal. I guess that means it’s OK. After all, it’s majority rules, right or wrong”.
John – Are you basing this absurd statement on proven research (facts) , or is it just a product of your prejudice towards the people of Craig County?
@NRV
The money has been raised already by private citizens-who will make sure no taxpayer money will be used.
It is a historical display. Documents used in the creation of our government or important to our historical heritage.
We wonder sometimes why Jails are overcrowded, divorce rate continues to rise, and people like Lady Gaga are our heroes.
Our kids are now learning history how the ACLU and the Libs think it should be taught. What is our true heritage? Huntersdad had it right…the didn’t want a state run church,..
The constitution should’ve said, Establishment of a “Christian Denomination”.
yeh sure you heard that john sure buddy. drink the koolaid babe
Un Lost,
Tell us how much money Doe #1 stands to make in this. Isn’t it true that Doe just wants the commandments taken down?
Let me tell you what smart lawyers using legitimate procedures do, will.
In Utah, they represented an esoteric belief system known as Summum. Followers of Summum requested their religion’s seven aphorisms be hung next to public displays of the Ten Commandments on public property. Town fathers, rather than fight this (which would be acknowledging they were discriminating on the basis of religion) removed displays of the Ten Commandments.
@DAN
http://ffrf.org/uploads/legal/giles_complaint.pdf
Read the document Dan, Page 8, Letter C.
Having either observed or been on the receiving end of threats (verbal, and via email), verbal abuse, slander (both personal and aimed at business interests), and some minor property damage as a result of religiously-driven zealotry, I completely understand why the plaintiffs would want to retain their anonymity. Such acts I’ve only endured since moving to the NRV, I did not experience them when I lived in larger places like Detroit, Virginia Beach, or Raleigh. And as for the people who carried on such acts, they were not Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, or Atheists. The people (whom I am aware of anyway) belonged to particular Pentecostal and Baptist churches…though we’ve gotten along really well with folks of other denominations (Methodist, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, etc), including the churches in our neighborhood, whom we’ve worked with and helped with fund raising efforts in the past.
“If you truly believe in something, then you should stand up and give your voice to the matter.” Says the guy posting under a pseudonym. If your point of view is well thought and accurate, your name is immaterial. Our founding fathers published many political articles under pen names (Federalist Papers for example). You just want these guys to suffer at the hands of the mob because you don’t like their point of view. Here is what the lawsuit is asking for:
The plaintiffs respectfully request the following relief:
A. A declaration that the defendant’s custom, policy, and practice of displaying the
Ten Commandments in Giles County Public Schools is unconstitutional;
B. A permanent injunction prohibiting the defendant from enforcing or carrying out
its custom, policy, and practice of displaying the Ten Commandments in the Giles County Public
Schools;
C. Nominal damages to compensate the plaintiffs for the injury to their constitutional
rights;
D. Reasonable costs and attorney’s fees pursuant to 42 U.S.C. § 1988; and
E. Such other relief as the Court deems just and proper.
This is boilerplate relief for a lawsuit of this manner. The plaintiffs are not going to make money off this. In fact when word does get out about their identity, I’m sure Un Lost’s fellow travelers will make their life so miserable they have to leave town and start over. Good on them for standing up for their beliefs and putting their neck on the line to back it up. You would think people that worship a guy who was persecuted for his beliefs would have a little more respect for someone in the same boat.
“John-Are you basing this absurd statement on proven research (facts) , or is it just a product of your prejudice towards the people of Craig County?”
No Will, he is using hyperbole to point out how poorly thought out the other posters claims of “majority rules” are. I think you get that.
Huntersdad- “I guess it’s all in your interpretation.”
Who Cares?
How you read and interpret the Constitution doesn’t matter. Its how the Supreme Court does that sets the rules.
@NRV
Did you even read part C.?
#19 Sorry, Un Lost, they’re not looking to make money off of it.
#22 NRV, we have some folks on this blog who are impaired when it comes to understanding hyperbole or sarcasm as a device to make a point. One person in particular (not will) has gone ballistic on me twice when I’ve used hyperbole and in one of those cases still brings it up months and months later. It’s a sad thing to see.
Un Lost at #15:
Show me where you get your info from on the private funding for the lawsuit costs. The school board is likely being represented pro bono, but the bill for the plaintiffs fees will be sent to the school board when they lose the suit. These costs are likely to be 7 figures. I highly doubt private citizens are going to foot that bill other than with their tax dollars.
You can call it a historical document or swiss cheese, but the court is going to see through the semantics and come to the conclusion it was put there for the purposes of promoting religion.
I don’t think the Giles scoop board’s cost will be 7 figures.
OJ,
I’m sorry that you’ve been the subject of harrasment by folks of Christian faith. I’m afraid that some who proclaim to follow Christ are challenged by his commandment to love God and neighbor…the two commandments that Jesus himself calls “the greatest.” Harrasment and abuse are, at the very least, a poor witness to the grace and mercy of a loving God, or at the most, anathema to the kind of life God has called us. I don’t blame the family at all for their desire to retain anonymity. Some Christians just can’t be trusted to behave.
Un Lost: Do you know what “nominal” means?
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Nominal+Damages
Dan, it may not. This is what I am basing my understanding of the potential costs from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District
See the settlement of the legal fees section.
NRV-
It will be a donation to the SBO from private citizens..how hard is that?
Like Dan said, it will also not be 7 digits. More like 6.
Humorous approach to a rather touchy subject. I think the case is a waste of tax payers money and should be dropped. I’m pretty sure in our justice system you have the right to face your accuser. I wonder if this was the The Ten Commandments in the Quran would the ACLU be suing Giles County Schools?
http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_10commandments.htm
@gdad
Please read part C and part E very carefully..This has been posted 3 times on here already.
The plaintiffs respectfully request the following relief:
A. A declaration that the defendant’s custom, policy, and practice of displaying the Ten Commandments in Giles County Public Schools is unconstitutional;
B. A permanent injunction prohibiting the defendant from enforcing or carrying outits custom, policy, and practice of displaying the Ten Commandments in the Giles County Public Schools;
C. Nominal damages to compensate the plaintiffs for the injury to their constitutional rights;
D. Reasonable costs and attorney’s fees pursuant to 42 U.S.C. § 1988; and
E. Such other relief as the Court deems just and proper.
NRV,
Gotcha. However, that was a much more complicated case. This one is pretty much a slam dunk. No question, the legal fees could get into the six figures if it gets dragged out via appeals.
Un Lost #32,
I asked you to show me, not tell me. Who and where are the organizations collecting the donations for the payment of plaintiffs legal fees.
Do you now realize you were wrong about the plaintiffs seeking monetary gain?
Dan you are right it will be an easier case to litigate, so the fees are likely to be less than $1 million unless the defendants really push it up the ladder. So, I’ll happily walk that back. Either way, I don’t see how anyone can say with a straight face that Giles county has money to burn on something like this.
It will also be interesting to see what happens when Giles Co. loses and the bills come due how much support they still have from private donations.
@#33 “I wonder if this was the The Ten Commandments in the Quran would the ACLU be suing Giles County Schools?”
Of course they would. The issue at hand is the posting of a religious doctrine by a public school, which students are required by law to attend and taxpayers (regardless of religious belief or affiliation) are required by law to support with their tax dollars.
The students, meantime, can post the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament, the Quran, whatever they want on their lockers, or bring and read from whatever religious texts they wish at school. The ACLU defends their right to do that as well. They are not anti Christian. They are pro individual liberty and pro Constitution.
Morris, thankfully the people I have come across have largely been unlike the few trouble-makers I’ve encountered. It doesn’t take too many rotten apples to spoil the bushel in a lot of circumstances. Some friends of ours have been far less willing to forgive and move forward than we have been. I know that for the most part, the acts we’ve endured have been a result of ignorance and lack of knowledge (and perhaps an acute lack of thinking before speaking/acting). I would not go so far as to claim that the people were actually Christians though, hence why I said they ‘attended’ certain churches. There are an unfortunate number of people who hide behind their supposed faith (of any religion) and commit any number of deeds they would not wish committed upon themselves. I largely blame modern society for the propensity toward incivility toward others, particularly those whom we know little about.
In a case like this, the nominal damages will likely equal $1 or the cost of filing fees the plaintiffs have to bear, whichever is more.
As to the issue at hand in Giles County, I personally have no problem with the idea of displaying the Ten Commandments alongside other religious doctrines. I do have a problem with them being displayed alongside historical documents from this country’s founding.
Put the Ten Commandments (various versions) up with things like the 7 Pillars of Islam, the Five Moral Precepts of Zen Buddhism, the Wiccan Rede, etc. so that people can compare and contrast the basic philosophical and moral beliefs of the various religions on the planet…that would prove to be thought-provoking and informative, especially since there are a lot of similarities.
But for historical documents involved in the founding of this country, have the ones drafted prior to the first settlers arriving on the shores and those drafted by the actual founders. To include anything beyond those is a blatant attempt to distort our actual history.
OJ, what’s your faith? Have you posted it here before and I’ve forgotten?
Typical Lib, always knows more than everyone else, even when the source is telling him exactly what will happen. No taxpayer money will be used.
OJ, you forgot Scientology, the Church of Satan, and most importantly, Festivus. The display should also have a video player that plays that Seinfeld episode on a continues loop. (It would get all the attention, too)
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/photo-gallery/ptgs_rotunda.cfm
I like these paintings and that they all hang in the Capitol Building Rotunda. It is hard to believe the ACLU hasn’t jumped on this. 4 of the 8 deal with our Christian Heritage. Who can tell me which 4 and why?
Un Lost, I hope indeed that no TP money will be used. That would be better spent teaching students about the foolhardy nature of government educators posting religious doctrine in public schools.
(The issue of TP money remains to be seen, however. You’d have to arrange a lot of bake sales to raise 6 figures.)
It was in one of the postings way back when, I think maybe the 10,000 comment post. It’s loosely a blending of earth-centered thought and Buddhism, sort of (basically I try to do right by people and the planet as best as I can, and that’s really about the most basic fundamental aspect of what I believe and practice, though it can be expanded to cover a myriad of issues). I have spent a fair amount of time trying to learn about the various religions and that’s most of why I don’t subscribe to anything in particular. Having had college roommates who practiced Roman Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam, Paganism, and Atheism…it was an interesting experience getting to learn what their beliefs were, how they lived, and the like. I saw a lot of commonality between them all at the most basic level, though actual practice and specific beliefs varied greatly. It was through those experiences that I came to conclude that no one religion was entirely correct, nor were any entirely incorrect either. To me, it does not matter what religion or spiritual path a person finds a solid footing in that helps them to live better and to help others, as each person is different and has to find their own way or a way that speaks to them in a manner that they can understand and accept.
And Dan, I would limit it to religions recognized by the government. The VA has a pretty extensive list, though, a lot of confusion could come in with the many varied denominations of the various religions, since each has their own unique twist upon a central theme.
I think OJ’s faith consists of hitting the golf ball pretty damn straight in 35 mph winds (or so it felt)…
He was on a roll Friday!!
@ #14: That was intended as satire. Sorry that went over your head. I’ll try to dumb it down next time.
Haha Mark, I don’t know how bad they were gusting but the winds were whipping for sure! I think if we could have replayed #7, we both would have fared pretty well overall, that hole was a killer, I don’t think I’ve hit that many trees in a complete round before, let along a single hole. We need to do it again too, hopefully on a day where the winds are a little more calm, if that’s possible…seeing as it was The Hill. Maybe The Meadows?
#34 You just don’t understand the real meaning of that, do you, Un? Even though it’s already been explained to you multiple times.
I also think the other thing that helped was I set aside every iron in my bag except 8-PW, which I actually was hitting ok. I just used my 5-wood for everything else, and that seemed to help…I haven’t been able to hit my mid-long irons with any consistency in years. It did feel weird swinging with it from 150 yards a couple times…maybe I need those iron-woods, they just look funky having that much loft without being a bladed club.
OJ, hang in there buddy. I’m sorry to hear of your mistreatment by some Christian zealots. Apparently, they didn’t fully consider if that was what a certain Jew would do.
John@1:10
Never mind that strategy. We’ve tried dumbing things down for him in the past and he still doesn’t get it. So it’s a waste of time.
If you abandon the rules when it suits your goals, you will find that you have no moral high ground to stand on when you may need it. (I’ll bet you are giddy at the thought of forced racial integration, but you live in a majority white area and have majority white friends.)
Do you approve of secret witnesses in trials for treason? How about death penalty trials?
Should you really be advocating for less rights for defendants?
Just because you want to “stick it” to a bunch of religious folks in Giles doesn’t means it is a good idea in the long run.
I love the Virginia Constitution’s take on Religious Freedom- This is how it starts:
ARTICLE I, SEC 16
“That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other….”
I also would like to say as a true biblical believer, that I sometimes let my emotions get the best of me and that yes- we Christians should be showing love for all people. I am sorry OJ has been treated the way he has, and I think we Christians should try to find that medium of loving all as Christ did, but still stand up for our beliefs at all times. This middle ground is where Christians can let their brightest light shine.
YOM,
So let me get this straight: you’re equating a lawsuit over government-sanctioned 10 commandments hanging in a school with the civil liberties that should be afforded to a person on trial for his life?
Do you know that the students are permitted to hang the commandments on their lockers and that nobody, including the ACLU or FFRF, objects?
YourOwnMedicine makes a valid point in post #55. No matter which side of this case you favor, the law needs to be followed, no exceptions. Approval or disapproval, like or dislike, of the resulting outcome not withstanding.
@55, you make some valid arguments. In the instances you cite, there is generally a crime against a person that has been committed that a person is charged with, and the defendant in those cases has a Constitutional right to face their accuser.
In the case of Giles County, it seems to me a little bit different than a criminal case. Given the sensitivity of the case and how emotionally charged it has become (and the already documented threats), I think it would be reckless to force the plaintiffs to lose their anonymity.
I honestly think the best course of action would be for the County to drop the matter altogether and remove the government-sanctioned posting of the Commandments, and save the County some money on the suit. While some 90% of the County residents may not have a problem with it, that doesn’t make it right.
I’d be interested to see what would happen if State/Federal funding for the schools were threatened with being withheld if the County continued to post them. That would add another layer to the debate for sure.
Going back to my time in school, we read the Bible in an English class for a couple weeks, looking at the writing style, dissecting the stories, looking for the meaning to the the verses…like any other work of literature. It was a good learning experience, and there was no outcry over that, even though we wound up reading rather substantial portions of the Bible, in class.
I’m saying that if you allow bending the rules in one case you eventually get rules bending on all cases. That should not have been hard to figure out. Things rarely run to extremes over night but the slippery slope heads in that direction.
There’s a long history of jurisprudence in which plaintiffs (as opposed to witnesses in capital cases) have been anonymous for various reasons. There also are cases (most notably against mobsters in New York) in which entire juries have been anonymous, because the mob has proven so successful in intimidating/corrupting jurors.
The Giles County School Board has an interest in ascertaining whether or not junior Doe attends a high school in which the commandments are hanging. If he (or she) does not, then the plaintiffs lack standing to bring the lawsuit.
But the school board’s argument that it is necessary to make public the plaintiff’s names for this reason is entirely specious. As is their argument that, at the least, the adult parent’s name should be public and the kid should be known by his/her initials.
That’s because the judge can simply determine if the plaintiff has or lacks standing in the privacy of his office, without that information being made public.
The ONLY reason to expose the parent’s or child’s name is to foster their intimidation, so as to cause them to drop the lawsuit. It is an end-justifies-the-means approach, and in this case it’s certainly not worth it.
Un Lost,
I agree that the middle ground ought to be a place where our Christian witness can have the greatest impact. Yet, there are still many avowed folks of Christian faith who feel that they have the corner on abject truth and will use any means necessary, intimidation or otherwise, to get their point across. I often refer to them as Al Queda Christians, those who use scriptural terrorism to dehumanize people with different alternative viewpoints or understandings.
I continue to think that if we, as Christians, did a better job teaching the 10 Commandments in our homes and churches, we wouldn’t be needing to have this conversation…
Un Lost,
Whom are you addressing at #43?
I agree completely with Dan’s 2:53 post. It is clear that the Giles County School Board is behaving in a most un-Christian manner here, trying to intimidate a child and his or her family. What schmucks!
YOM’s weak argument for more transparency doesn’t hold water. There are all kinds of situations where some degree of anonymity is afforded various parties in the legal process and a greater degree of justice can result from it. While there are some cases where identifying and facing an accuser is an integral part of seeking justice, in the Giles case, whether or not the School Board is “guilty as charged” is completely independent of who’s making the accusation.
Re: #61
“That’s because the judge can simply determine if the plaintiff has or lacks standing in the privacy of his office, without that information being made public.
The ONLY reason to expose the parent’s or child’s name is to foster their intimidation, so as to cause them to drop the lawsuit. It is an end-justifies-the-means approach, and in this case it’s certainly not worth it.”
Re: #62
“I continue to think that if we, as Christians, did a better job teaching the 10 Commandments in our homes and churches, we wouldn’t be needing to have this conversation…”
#64
“I agree completely with Dan’s 2:53 post. It is clear that the Giles County School Board is behaving in a most un-Christian manner here, trying to intimidate a child and his or her family.”
———-
That nails it.
Case closed, IMHO.
Granted “heated rhetoric” is par for the course on some blogs and comment sections but the truth remains that it IS intimidating to people with perfectly legitimate comments or complaints.
From the Roanoke Times article:
“More than 200 people packed a school board meeting, students at Giles High School skipped class in protest, and objectors lit up the Internet and vented on the commentary pages of local newspapers.
“I have been alarmed by the virulent reactions of the community” the student’s parent, referred to as “Doe 2,” wrote in court papers.
The motion for a protective order provides a sampling of comments:
“Keep up the good work, you’ll have a special place in Hell,” one man wrote in an email to the ACLU.
“Sure sounds to me like non-Christians ought to move out of Giles County before things get ugly over there,” another wrote.
“You folks are allowing Satin [sic] to rule you!!!” wrote a woman identified in the pleadings as a Giles County elementary school teacher.
“We won’t let an anonymous coward tell us how to run our business,” said Eric Gentry, chairman of the board of supervisors, according to an article from the Virginian Leader, the county’s newspaper, included in court filings.
In other religious freedom cases across the country, the war of words has escalated to death threats and actual violence, according the ACLU.
The group’s motion cites one case in which a plaintiff’s home was burned down and another in which the litigant’s house was broken into by someone who killed several cats and beheaded a parrot, leaving behind a note that read: “You’re next.”
Although no explicit threats have been made in Giles County, the comments illustrate a risk of harm — especially when directed at a school-aged child, the ACLU contended in its motion.
“Urging a quick sojourn to ‘you know where’ may be a benign comment to an adult, but if directed to a minor, can be harmful,” the motion states.”
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/298548
Anyone who thinks this family would escape harassment and possibly worse is lying to themselves.
You’ve got to wonder whether there would be a cross burning on their lawn soon after their names got out.
No, I don’t “wonder” at all. Been here too long.
I think you are right Sandi. You have been here too long…so what is your next step?
My next step is to turn it back over to civil, christian, compassionate people like you Un Lost.
#63 I’d say Un Lost is lost and has no idea who he/she was addressing in that post.
I have a sincere question for those who support unmasking the plaintiffs:
What repercussions, if any, do you expect the child and parent(s) would experience?
So stupid. If 99.9% of Giles wants something, it doesn’t matter. Counties don’t get to write their own Bill of Rights. And they’ll lose this one. Only question is how much money they waste defending it.
The constitution should’ve said, Establishment of a “Christian Denomination”.
Comment by Un Lost — October 18, 2011 @ 10:35 am
Newsflash Lost…it didn’t.
Un Lost,
Did Jesus tell you to pick a fight with Sandi this morning?
Ever notice that it’s the loudest ones when it comes to religion that take it least to heart.
#66 A teacher who can’t spell Satan is pretty bad. Unless the fabric satin is evil. I have no doubt that if their names are released, they will suffer attacks from “good Christians”.
Sorta like the Socialists/Democrats wanting a list of the “wealthy” and WHO they give their money to.
Or the publishing/releasing of a list of names and addresses of private citizens who have concealed carry permits.
“Sued for hanging the Ten Commandments in a high school hallway, the Giles County School Board is now distancing itself from the controversial display…”
And, they’re running away….
#38 the ACLU “They are pro individual liberty and pro Constitution”.
B.S. The ACLU is more to the left than any group out there.
Don’t recall them helping the NRA in the lawsuit about the DC gun ban
(Heller Case) or any second amendment issue. I bet you can’t find one documented example of the ACLU standing up for Christians.
Brendan, to me the Constitution IS THE RULE, not some liberal judges interpretation of it some 200 years plus later. I don’t need him or her to interpret for me thank you very much.
Dan, I didn’t touch on whether the kid’s name should be released or not in my original comment…my answer is no. I wouldn’t want that kid or any other to be victim of that. I was merely commenting on how absurd I thought it was to let the wants of one to outweigh the wants of the many. But majority rule doesn’t always work out in this country when it should. I seem to remember Al Gore winning the popular vote and the Supreme court handing the election to GW in 2000. So if the Supreme Court says that’s the way it is, it has to be right huh Dan?
Hope CAPTCHA doesn’t eat this one too, I’ve been trying to respond since yesterday. I type it right and it still spits it out.
NRV, I just don’t consider the School Board’s posting of the Commandments as “tyranny of the majority” or establishing a state sanctioned church as the Constitution specifically doesn’t allow.
Holy smokes! I can’t believe what I just read. The Giles Co. School Board is saying that since a “private citizen” hung the 10 commandments, after they voted to restore it, they are not on the hook for it’s presence in the school. The ACLU lawyers must have been rolling on the floor when they read that.
Duh, Maloof…anyone who knows anything about the ACLU (not you) knows they concern themselves overwhelmingly with first amendment issues. Surely the NRA is enough for those gun people.
They’ve “stuck up for Christians” plenty of time. It took me 1 second googling (About 1,500,000 results (0.26 seconds) ) to see that. Do your own research.
And the Gile SB is about to cave, if you read above. They’re already disowning their precious 10 commandments. It’s over. The Christian taliban lost.
79.Brendan, to me the Constitution IS THE RULE, not some liberal judges interpretation of it some 200 years plus later. I don’t need him or her to interpret for me thank you very much.
Comment by Huntersdad — October 19, 2011 @ 2:37 pm
Huntersdad,
If you don’t need the liberal judge’s interpretation of the Constitution some 200 years later, then the Constitution isn’t the rule is it?
The Constitution and the Supreme Court: the Constitution is very clear about the position of the Supreme Court as stated in Article III.
“The judicial power of the United States shall be vested in one Supreme Court and in such inferior courts that the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.”
“The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under the Constitution, the laws of the United States and Treaties.”
The Supreme Court is one of three co-equal branches of our government as outlined in the Constitution.
Huntersdad: Fortunately it’s not up for your consideration considering your ignorance of how our government is structured. I expect you would change your tune quite a bit if it was your ox being gored.
Sounds like desperation time down in Giles County.
#78 “I bet you can’t find one documented example of the ACLU standing up for Christians.”
You blew that one Maloof. When will right wingers quit parroting this stuff?
The ACLU has fought for the right of kids to bring Bibles to school, to hold Cristian club meetings or to wear crosses. They fought for the right of Christians to baptize converts in a river in a public park in Fredericksburg. The ACLU fought for the right of Floyd County students to post the Commandments on their lockers. The ACLU fought for the right of a Texas prisoner to Christian services.
Should I go on, Maloof? There are many, many, many more examples.
http://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression
Wow, so if I roll in to a Giles school I can just do whatever I want and the school board can just declare itself off the hook?
Amazing.
Maloof,
Google is your friend and can keep your foot out of your mouth:
http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/
Here’s one close to home:
http://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/following-threat-aclu-virginia-lawsuit-officials-agree-not-ban-baptisms-public-parks
That took 30 seconds of work on google. You have absolutely no excuse for being ignorant of these facts as you clearly have access to a computer.
@#78 “I bet you can’t find one documented example of the ACLU standing up for Christians.”
http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/
Giles County’s defense about a private citizen hanging the poster is no more ridiculous than the fact that a student and his parents are so horribly offended by this poster that they felt a need to sue… anonymously. How can you really pretend to be that offended by something if you aren’t willing to openly admit that you’re the one taking action? For me personally, that says a lot about how committed to this lawsuit that these people actually must be.
But… when you think about it for a second, all of the media coverage has probably caused more people to go and read the ten commandments that maybe hadn’t paid a lot of attention to them before just to see exactly what all of the fuss is about. And if they didn’t read them, they at least thought about them. So in the end, MORE people showed MORE interest in the ten commandments because of the media and the ACLU and this lawsuit that’s trying to remove the commandments from a public school. If the posters had just been left alone in this small school district… the ten commandments wouldn’t have gotten nearly as much public exposure and attention over the last few months.
In the end, more people read the ten commandments, or at least spent some time paying attention to them, because of the ACLU’s and the FFRF’s efforts… I wonder if that was the ultimate result that they intended?
“Don’t recall them helping the NRA in the lawsuit about the DC gun ban
(Heller Case) or any second amendment issue.”
It’s true that it’s outside of their usual scope to get involved in 2nd amendment issues. However:
http://digitaljournal.com/article/275781
http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2010/07/16/pigs-fly-aclu-defends-gun-rights/
And now, since they have already distanced themselves from their lost cause, the Giles County School Board merits recognition in song:
Ding-dong, the witch is dead,
Which old witch, the Giles County Christian Taliban.
Ding-dong, the wicked witch is dead!
Hmm…need to find a clever rhyme for this.
#90 I don’t think anybody in this case intended for people to stop reading the Commandments, including the ACLU.
Hokie24,
I expect the ACLU and FFRF could care less whether more people read the ten commandments or not. They care about the law and the constitution, they’re lawyers, that’s what they do. One could also say that more students and parents are now aware that any religious promotion in a public school is a no-no and may act to have it removed from their school district now that they see how it can be done. The only losers in this whole issue are the kids in Giles County. Well the school board too. The board is going to be hated by all. The religious fanatics that pressured them to re-install the commandments will be angry when they have to capitulate in the face of losing the case and having to pay attorney fees. The regular people that see it as a foolish distraction from the school boards job of preparing kids for college or a trade are already angry. It will be interesting to see how the incumbent members of the board fare in the next election.
gdad please go on and on and on if it makes you happy as for the rest of you who jumped on my post… All you card carrying members of the ACLU as you call yourselves. Revel in the fact that your precious ACLU has spent your money(dues) to represent Nazis, Racists, Drug Cartels and the most disgusting lowest of lows Nambla. Don’t believe me believe the links provided by “google” (took about 45 seconds)
As always Have a nice day.
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-praises-cleveland-mayors-support-kkks-first-amendment-right-march
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=100204&mesg_id=100644
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20000831/aponline171914_000.htm
https://henrypatrick1736.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/mexico-the-drug-cartel-haven-is-suing-to-keep-illegals-legal-in-america-along-aclu-seiu/
http://www.ff.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=376
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=100204&mesg_id=100644
Maloof all of us already knew this as we all know a lot more about the ACLU than you do.
Yes, they’ve supported nambla, the klan, and christians. So what exactly is your problem?
You probably claim to “support the constitution”. You just don’t understand it much.
Re: #95
Maloof
Where in the Construction of this great country does it restrict the “Bill of Rights” to only the “righteous”, the “upstanding”, the “good people”, the “pillars of the community” or the like?
#95 Maloof, bud, why so angry? You challenged us to find any evidence at all that the ACLU has ever gone to bat for Christians and we provided tons of it. I thought you’d be happy that they have indeed defended Christianity. Oh wait, I guess that truth doesn’t fit your agenda, does it. A tad inconvenient?
As for defending the rights of nazis and the KKK and NAMBLA to march or speak out, don’t you support the Constitution? I know I do.
Ron And NRV, thank you both for your efforts to educate me on the Constitution and the structure of our government. I am humble enough to know and admit there are many bloggers here like yourselves much more educated and knowing in such subjects and I’m always eager to learn. That said could one of you post me a link that shows me where the Constitution forbids the government from mentioning God in a public forum or suggesting His(possible) existence. I promise to read it thoroughly several times to help lessen my ignorance on this subject. I anxiously await your next civics lesson.
NRV, as far as my ox being gored, if the School Board hung (as Dan suggested) Scientology, church of Satan, and Festivus (Ha!) documents right beside the Commandments I wouldn’t blink an eye. I’ve lived long enough to know that sometimes you just have to ignore things and people you don’t agree with or that offend you. If you can’t learn to do this it could be a long, hard bitter road of life in front of you. I try to teach my kids this, and it seems that Papa/Mama Doe in Giles Co. could do the same.
Huntersdad,
Thanks for the polite post. I’m not going to do your homework for you any longer. When you finish your research, I’d be happy to see any proof you can offer that Giles Co. is in the right.
I’ve learned a lot in my years too. One of which is that what you tolerate, you endorse. Were cases like this not contested, where does it lead next? The ideologues among us will push and push until the constitution is irrelevant if a stand isn’t taken. Just because the common culture in a community supports something, doesn’t mean it’s right. A line has to be drawn somewhere. Cases like this help us determine where that line is.
I think you have mis-read why I care about this. I’m not offended nor have any religious concerns about this issue. I couldn’t care less what sky god people pray to. What I do care about is that the constitution protects my freedom and my children’s freedom from having others push their beliefs upon us through the government of which public schools are a part. I respect Doe 1 and Doe 2 for standing up for their rights and beliefs and that’s what I will teach my daughter to do.
NRV,
I see where you’re coming from with your reasoning, but I don’t buy for a minute that a group calling themselves the “Freedom From Religion Foundation” simply is a bunch of lawyers who care about law and the constitution.
The kids in Giles County aren’t losing anything. Half of them probably didn’t know that the poster existed until all of this attention was put on it. To most of them, a poster was taken off the wall, no more, no less. It may have been a distraction for the school board, but not really for the kids.
If “religious fanatics” pressured the board to put the posters back up without lawsuits, etc… then what name are we supposed to call the people who decided to hire lawyers and get national organizations involved in a lawsuit against the school board… over a poster board?
I don’t know… I understand how a public school isn’t supposed to promote one religion… I just don’t think that a poster hanging in a school hallway was shoving anything down anyone’s throats. And if the majority of the folks in the school district wanted it there, or didn’t mind if it was there… I just don’t see the need for all of this nonsense.
There is nothing in the Constitution that remotely “forbids the government from mentioning God in a public forum or suggesting His(possible) existence”. Why would there be? They never tried to deny God or his importance. The vast and overwhelming majority of people on this planet believe in God. They are just not all Christians who pray in Jesus’ name. THEREIN lies the confusion.
Because so many Christians believe that is the ONLY religion that exists, matters or is legitimate, they have never accepted what the Founding Fathers were so careful to craft into a secular national credo. Christians made this argument about God, when it was and has always been about Christian efforts at dominance. They have always bucked the separation of church and state and not until the plurality and diversity that makes us so rich was courageous enough to question their dominance did anyone really fight back.
The issue has long been settled law and practice and they only alienate more people with each incursion. They especially alienate the people who believe in God but refuse to condemn other religious belief or accept that the government should favor one over another.
That people so “get” the concept of the separation when the subject is Sharia Law, dreadlocks or hijabs is made sad by their refusal to see it when it comes to The 10 Commandments displays and praying publicly to Jesus.
Schools should not be in the religion business, considering the low opinion so many have of schools why would you want them to be?
It would behoove us all to make the tiny effort to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes on some issues. Sure a display could be ignored and “lived with”. Such happens in every city on the earth every day.
However, if you are taught from early on that this is America and in America ALL people are equal. ALL rights are protected. ALL religions are treated fairly and equally and no one can discriminate based on your religion. Not the government (schools), not the workplace, not the community, no one is free to discriminate (beyond their personal boundaries of hate)…maybe, just maybe you would be offended that your school (a government institution) displays ONLY one religious doctrine, ONE religious perspective, ONE religion’s tenets?
If you were a Christian and that poster was a list of Hadiths from the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), you would see it glaringly, and so would your parents, I have no doubt.
Hokie24,
I actually thought about it last night, and changed my mind about the kids. I think they are actually learning more about civics, the constitution, how the legal systems works, etc. than they otherwise would have. I think they are getting an especially good lesson in how adults behave over issues like this. I expect a lot of them will have a different outlook on many things now that they have seen this first hand.
Please read my post at #100 which should address my thinking on the other issues you raise.
NRV you’re welcome.If I disagree I will at least try to be civil. I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one at least until Dan gives us another subject to kick around. But if you change your mind on helping with my homework, I’ve got a quiz to study for tonight at the local community college. Know anything about electricity and combination circuits?
ah poor whiney liberals afraid of the 10 Commandments. get a grip
#105 Well put, NRV. Any kid paying attention to this is indeed learning more than if it had never been brought up. Especially in these days of useless standardized tests.
Good luck with that, Huntersdad…I took an electrical theory class many years ago, it’s part of why I chose not to be an electrical engineer.
#106 Oh, you mean like how those liberals at the ACLU made sure Floyd County kids could keep posting the commandments on their lockers? Yeah, real scared.
Huntersdad,
I’ve been an educator all my adult life. I keep trying when I get the opportunity.
My comment was directed toward to your assertion that “… to me the Constitution IS THE RULE, not some liberal judges interpretation of it some 200 years plus later. I don’t need him or her to interpret for me thank you very much.” I haven’t agreed with every decision made by local, federal or the Supreme Court. Nonetheless, the ability of the courts, at whatever level, to make such decisions is specifically allowed under our Constition.
I don’t have a strong opinion on the Giles County School Board case. The outcome will be determined by the courts and I’m comfortable with that.
Good luck on your quiz tonight. Sorry, as a historian, I doubt I can offer you much on electricity or combination circuits.
Sandi- Sorry, My last comment was wrong.
I have been defending and will still defend the Historical Documents display in Giles. But I believe God has a bigger plan in all this, and it already has had its effects.
Dan is right. Hundreds and hundreds of signs can be seen in yards and lockers and cars in the county. I have talked to numerous pastors who say their attendance is up, with many giving their life to Christ.
I personally could care less if the Plaintiffs are anonymous. The purpose of Christians in the County should be to fight for their beliefs, and to see lives changed positively as a result. No matter win or lose, Christians should not harass those who don’t believe the gospel, or don’t agree with the display. But we also are showing our children that no matter what our chances are, that a few people from Wisconsin (FFRF)should not keep us from fighting for moral principles that our Forefathers used in the creation of this great country.
Win or Lose, Christian citizens should be proud for standing up. But we should not turn this into an issue where we show hate for others, which is opposite of what Christ wants us to do.
With that, I just want to get responses from all to this question:
Where do we as humans get morals from?
Un Lost,
Good post, Un Lost. There is no doubt that the issue in Giles has caused people to engage or re-engage the Ten Commandments. There are signs, stickers, and car magnets everywhere I go in Giles so no one can really escapre from the issues before us.
In regards to morality, I would argue that it does ultimately come from God. If we are created in God’s image, as Genesis 1 asserts, I think that morality is in our fiber. The Ten Commandments weren’t the beginning of morality. There were law codes in existence for many centuries in other civilizations (Egypt, Sumeria, and elsewhere) prior to the Sinai covenant. What makes the Ten Commandments unique is not so much the ordering of society (theft, adultery, envy, murder, honoring one’s parents–these things are found in other ancient law codes), but rather the covenant relationship that God initiates with God’s people. For those of us who view the world through Christian lenses, we see Jesus as the mediator of the new covenant (c.f. Hebrews), not written in stone but upon the heart.
In a way, Pammala may be correct. We should “be afraid” of the Ten Commandments…at least to a point. Even as Moses is up on the mountain receiving the commandments, the people are having an orgiastic religious experience around the golden calf. This story reminds me of how challenging it is to live into this ethic…and, even more so, to love God and our neighbor as ourselves as Jesus has commanded. Jesus never negates his own Jewish tradition, rather he amplifies them. On more than one occasion, he prefaces his teaching with: “You have heard…but I tell you…” He doesn’t abolish the law, but rather takes it to the next level. It’s one thing to not murder your neighbor. It’s an entirely different and more challenging thing to love your neighbor). It seems to me that Jesus commandments, which he calls the greatest commandments, transcend the Ten Commandments–for example, if I truly love my neighbor, then I won’t commit adultery with his wife. If I truly love God, then I won’t bow down to false idols…
My concern with the hooplah surrounding the Ten Commandments is that we end up losing sight of God’s intentions in giving them to us in the first place.
I agree with you Morris. My last question on that post is for everyone to think about why most people try not to do bad things. If you don’t believe in God, what keeps you from killing people or stealing every second you get? Morality comes from God plain and simple. Whether you are a believer or not.
“If you don’t believe in God, what keeps you from killing people or stealing every second you get?”
Why would I even want to? I find the assumption that people are thieving murderers at heart very weird. And you can be sure there are far fewer murderers and thieves than there are people who don’t believe in God.
Thank you for the kindness Un Lost. I appreciate it.
Obviously morality is a learned behavior. It is either fed and nurtured or starved and deadened if society shows any data. Atheist and Agnostic people are moral, decent, kind, loving, generous, patient, intelligent and all things good just at religious people of all faiths are. Likewise there are immoral, corrupt, greedy, evil and mean people in ALL of the same groups. If the difference alone was God, then there would be a stark difference and there simply is not. Right and wrong, good and bad are not just or exclusively religious concepts.
I take great pleasure and fulfillment from my faith, I know Muslims and Jews and even some Bahá’í that all do as well. I also know some atheist and agnostic people who are as wonderful and warm as any people I have ever known. As a wonderful Reverend I love has told me several times, “I know enough to know there is much I don’t know”. I agree and do the best I can with my belief that we will all have to answer for our choices.
@113 I would add to what Kristen said: What also keeps people from stealing and killing are society’s laws (not just God’s laws). I think without the fear of retribution (ie: jail) in THIS LIFE, society would be considerably more hedonistic than it already is. And I agree with Sandi also that no one holds down the corner on morality and I find people that claim to very dogmatic.
You do not have to believe in God to find that the 10 commandments are important and good rules to live by. You do not need to believe Jesus was the literal son of God in order to find what he says in the Bible to be incredibly valuable.
As a matter of fact, it is more important to me that people actually follow the 10 commandments and try to walk in Jesus’ shoes rather than that they believe in God or his son.
Un Lost-
“I agree with you Morris. My last question on that post is for everyone to think about why most people try not to do bad things. If you don’t believe in God, what keeps you from killing people or stealing every second you get? Morality comes from God plain and simple. Whether you are a believer or not.”
What an astoundingly arrogant and ignorant statement. Most of human morality is plain old self interest. Most behaviors that are universally considered immoral are of a type that harms the survivability of the species in the long run. A species that spends its time slaughtering its own kind will not last too long (yes, humans kill each other, but at a very low rate). (I’m looking forward to Stephen Pinkerton’s new book which makes the case that we are living in the most peaceful age in recorded history, both from the standpoint of war and individual homicide.)
And how can you say that morality comes from god “whether you are a believer or not”? I don’t believe in a god or gods and find the god depicted in the Bible to be out and out vicious, petty, and homicidal.
“If you don’t believe in God, what keeps you from killing people or stealing every second you get?”
Ummm… the consequences of killing someone or stealing. It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with the realization that such behaviors have negative impact on relationships you have with people in your community. You may well need a stone slate with a set a rules that prohibit you from such behavior in fear of hell and damnation, but for most sane person, the simple realization that taking a life causes grief and suffering in other human beings is generally enough to keep most people from committing such acts. In fact, if you want to go down the road of comparative immorality, I’ll name you multitude of immoral acts that were committed because God told a religious person to do them. ( Or so the person believed.)
We come from social stock. The hallmark of our advancement as a species is cooperation. It’s not perfect cooperation, but the general and persistent trait that makes humans successful are things like empathy, well developed sense of fairness and altruism. These are powerful traits and we benefit greatly from eons of social filtering that has make our species pretty successful member of the animal kingdom. We tend also to be tribal, xenophobic and capable of genocide when we become convinced that people who aren’t in our tribe present a threat to us.
My daughter lives in Korea. Statistically, about 50 percent S.Koreans are atheists? Should be a crap place to live, right? Nope. Says she’s never felt unsafe and she feels welcome by the friendliest, most helpful and happy people she ever met. Sent my son there last year and he said the same thing.
Don’t believe God? Be good anyway. It works better that way and you can’t be deluded into behaving badly because some supernatural behavioral moderator gave you bad moral advice.