Political courage in the commonwealth of Vagina
Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell
Herewith is a short recap of the recent vaginal politics in the Virginia General Assembly:
1. A bill is introduced in the Virginia Senate that requires women seeking abortions to get sonograms before the abortion.The bill also requires those sonograms gather specific data about fetal size and heartbeat, although it does not mention the term “trans-vaginal.”
2. The mandate, billed as a “women’s health” measure, applies ONLY to the minority of women seeking to terminate pregnancies. It does not apply at all to the large majority of pregnant women who intend to give birth. That’s how you can tell the whole “women’s health” argument is a farce — it doesn’t apply to to most pregnant women.
3. Health professionals note that the vast majority of abortions in Virginia occur in the first trimester. The only way kind of a sonogram can gather the data required by the bill that early in a pregnancy is to insert a wand into the pregnant woman’s vagina. This is called a “trans-vaginal” sonogram. This point is not even debatable.
4. Gov. Bob McDonnell says he’ll that he’ll sign the bill if it make it to his desk.
5. Opponents of the bill seize on the vaginal probe aspect. The mildest critics call it “invasive.” The harshest liken it to rape. A few note the similarity to Virginia laws against “object sexual penetration,” a felony that carries a prison terms of 5 years to life.
6. The bill, sponsored by Sen. Jill Holtzman Vogel (R-Winchester) , passes the Senate 21-18, with most (but not all) Republicans voting for it and most (but not all) Democrats voting against it.
7. Abortion opponents in Richmond grow giddy with delight, because the Senate is where similar legislation has died in recent years.
8. The Senate bill moves over to the House, which has already passeed a nearly identical bill, sponsored by Del. Kathy Byron (R-Lynchburg), 63-36.
8. The hue and cry over the vagina politics grows. It’s national news that Virginia is about to require this invasive procedure for women who do not want it. Abortions rights supporters demonstrate outside the Capitol in Richmond. Saturday Night Live makes fun of it.
9. The governor, who is hoping for the vice-presidential slot on GOP frontrunner Mitt Romney’s ticket, gets cold feet. The administration lets the Senate and House know that he wants nothing to do with sticking things into unwilling women’s vaginas.
10. Bowing to McDonnell’s concerns, the House amends the Senate bill. Now the only required procedure is a sonogram with a wand touching a woman’s stomach. But if that doesn’t produce good data, the woman has the “option” of having the a transvaginal sonogram.
11. “The “option?” Come on. No woman seeking an abortion will take that “option.” She doesn’t even want the abdominal sonogram for Pete’s sake. It doesn’t deter abortions in other states that have adopted the practice.
12. The original sponsor of the Senate Bill is disheartened. She says she’ll ask the Senate to kill the amended-in-the-House bill when it comes back to the upper chamber.
14. The House version — the one by Del. Kathy Byron — remains still alive in the Senate. In a face-saving gesture, it’s been watered down to not require transvaginal ultrasound tests, too. But to leave it as “an option.”
You think they’re going to do anything with that hot potato? It’s almost as bad legislation as the original. What remains is a mandate that a woman get a useless and expensive medical test before she has the abortion she’s going to have anyway.
Now it’s become more and more clear that the only purpose of the legislation it to hassle her.
Don’t bet on that bill making it through.
The governor’s chances of running for vice president may be riding on it
February 24, 2012 - 6:00 AM
The headline of the article linked below says it all. The ridicule was deserved. You just can’t cure stupid.
http://www.delmarvanow.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120223/NEWS01/120223034/Ridicule-helped-doom-Va-ultrasound-bill?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Eastern Shore News
Yep, those Repubs are REAL courageous lot. And look at all the time they’v been spending on those promised “jobs” bills.
Make that “a” real courageous lot.
“WE CHOOSE TO KILL, SO WE CAN JUST CHILL”!
“I got better things to do..like keep my thin frame so I can have sex again and get pregnant, then have another abortion.”
“I know i had unprotected sex, but a child is such an inconvenience”
98% are “convenience” abortions.
Only in Virginia is a sonogram considered “extreme”. In North Carolina, they were “routine”.
98% are “convenience” abortions.
Absolutely, Pistol Pete. And that’s where the left’s Big Lie comes in. They pretend it’s all for ‘the health of the mother’. Everybody knows that’s crap. The left wants abortion to remain as easy as getting an order at the McDonald’s drive-thru. All this pap about these women ‘agonizing over their decision” is a big pile.
First of all Men – until someone puts a wand in your vagina when you don’t want it, it’s best you keep your extreme and ridiculous opinions to yourself. A slight few women use abortion as a form of birth control…. If you honestly think women chose to undergo this procedure so they can “stay skinny” you disgust me. Thank goodness this state was so rightfully made fun of!!
Guess when these women go to GYN for checkups, they ask the physician to find an alternate route ?? I think that the invasive ultrasound is no different than the vacuum hose the abortion doctor shoves up in there?? Am I right?
OK
Lets have 150 posts pitting the baby killers vs. the vagina probe invaders. Be sure to paint both sides as evil. Then lets repeat this every week until we all are gone so we spend our whole life arguing about something that will never change.
America has lost it’s soul and all the abortion laws in the world won’t change that.
I wish all the right wing religious zealots would leave women and their bodies alone..abortion is such a hot button topic..but you can bet if it was the men in politics that had to decide whether or not to have one there would be No opposition to any procedures…so let us decide for ourselves and not become political pawns yet again…find people jobs and quit taking their homes..I find this a far better way to spend their time and energy than a womans reproduction issues…
I was surprised how many people were opposed to the ultrasound, but supported Obamacare.
It was Obamacare that opened the door to the government making medical decisions for you. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.
You either want the government to make medical decisions on your behalf, or you don’t.
What I find amazing is how *fast* the backpedaling-turnaround on these bills has been. And I don’t buy all this “Gosh, we didn’t know how extreme these bills were, with all their invasive trans-vaginal measures, blah, blah, blah!” from the Governor and other Republicans. The thing is, they did know, and they all thought these bills would sail through with nary a protest. Wrong. I do think that the ridicule from the Daily Show and other TV shows, as well as Virginia citizens voicing their opinions, has led to, what I hope is, the demise of these bills. I also think that some of the wealthy “fiscal conservative” Republicans in Northern Virginia, Charlottesville, Richmond, and Hampton Roads, including those who are women themselves or else wives thereof, probably got on the phone to McDonnell and told him, “Look, you need to nix these bills. If you don’t, and you get picked to be a Vice-Presidential candidate, don’t expect our monetary support.”
Love how Suzie and Pete can see into the hearts and minds of women who choose to have an abortion. Guess those bible-thumpers forgot that Leviticus says such seers are to be put to death.
Speak for yourselves. If, that is, you have anything meaningful to say.
As if you two have the credibility to say what anything is “about”! The only “pap” here is what you bring.
#4 Pistol Pete posted “98% are “convenience” abortions”
Two problems with your post.
Problem #1 – You don’t present sourced FACTS:
“Forty percent of pregnancies among white women, 67% among blacks and 53% among Hispanics are unintended In 2008, Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.” http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
Guttmacher Institute is a non-partisan research organization, before you start to claim that they are somehow a pro-choice organization.
Problem #2 – you have most ill-informed championing your post – which is never an indication of relevant or factual posts.
This little fact is for most ill informed…
“Thirty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions identify as Protestant and 28% as Catholic…”
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
@6 Wow…bait much Suzie? What an offensive and shallow post.
it takes a lot of courage to kill a baby
50 million + dead and counting. Where is our conscience?
How can anyone be in favor of that?
we need to let more of these babies be born, that way we would have more babies for homosexual couples to adopt.
BTW speaking of jobs
what is the national unemployment rate under Obama’s administration again?
If you guys would get off the human life is precious kick this would not be an issue.
The Virginia Legislature is OUT OF CONTROL. THE CONSERVATIVE AGENDA is far more dangerous than it has
ever been. STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHT TO CONTROL YOUR OWN BODY. These old white men have no business dictating a woman’s GOD given right to choose!!! STOP THE CONSERVATIVE MENACE. STOP THE CONSERVATIVE MENACE. STOP THE CONSERVATIVE MENACE!
#5 Henry, what are you talking about? That law In NC was blocked by a Federal Court.
#6 Now let’s review. suzie claimed that she knows most people support her view on all of this because 50 people honk when they pass by the PP protests for every one person in opposition who is rude (ignoring the fact that the VAST majority who disagree simply drive on by and do nothing at all, and some of them probably are even are among the honkers). This is what passes for “logic” in suzie’s tiny little brain.
Meanwhile, GA Republicans retreat on both ultrasound and “personhood” because THEY realize they are completely out of synch with the majority of voters and Bobby McD realizes he might lose any chance at the VP nod if the rest of the nation is laughing at Virginia.
And voters who were hoodwinked by all the Rethug “jobs” talk are still looking for those job-creating bills while wondering what’s up with the right-wing attempts to impose their religion on the commonwealth.
@19 – Women should be allowed to kill.
Not since the Comstock Act of 1873 have vaginas been in the forefront of political issues.
@11 Jack, I’m honestly asking this question because it seems like an inconsistency to me: Why would the gun advocates not also be on the side of those who oppose these measures? You don’t want further restrictions relating to what you perceive to be your legal right when it comes to guns, correct? So why would you support legal restrictions for a woman doing something she has the legal right to do?
Listen, I understand that from a moral point of view, you may want the law legalizing abortion itself overturned. Fine. But short of that, why is your stance so different on this issue than on gun related issues? Isn’t your larger belief that the government should stay out of our lives more than it does and not interfere with legal rights and protections?
Oh yeah Jack, “Obamacare” was the first time ever for the government to make decisions for us or tell us what to do. You are really sharp to notice that.
Sadly, if that is what you need to reduce it to Uptheriver, I guess you are right, they are all just murderers and we are all just enablers. What a wonderful world. I can’t imagine anyone not wanting to bring a new life into it.
Donut Miser, McDonnell’s aspiration to higher office is the reason for the aboutface IMO.
That’s too obvious Ernie. If that was the issue, pro-lifers already have a full time job that should be dedicated to the needs of the unwanted. They seem to prefer dictating matters of personal choice that directly impact the people making the choice.
Oddly enough, these same folks tend to be hawkish. Let’s birth and raise more children to a minimal age of maturity and good health so we can send them off to kill or be killed. The rest can join the growing masses of youngsters wondering how they will make a living when we have more people with less to do. Automated tasks should be. Then what? If higher education could produce more innovation efficiently, we wouldn’t need very many students or facilities to fill that niche.
Population growth will remain a bigger issue than any religious doctrine can address. It’s also more than arrogant to think that our local and national laws infringing on liberty have any impact on a global scale.
Just another distraction and round and round we go.
Hilary..this is for your crackpipe to be smoked: AND ITS FROM GUTTMACHER!!!!
Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.)
Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1%
Source:Bankole, Akinrinola; Singh, Susheela; Haas, Taylor. Reasons Why Women Have Induced Abortions: Evidence from 27 Countries. International Family Planning Perspectives, 1998, 24(3):117–127 & 152 As reported by:The Alan Guttmacher Institute Online:
These cut and run actions by the “bold conservatives” of the GA are straight out of their handbook “How To Avoid Further Humiliation And Declare Victory At A Safe Distance”. For a perfect example of the same tactic used on this blog, see posts #54, 65, and 76 on the recent “Santorum screw the pooch” thread:
http://blogs.roanoke.com/dancasey/2012/02/did-rick-santorum-screw-the-pooch-with-his-judgment-on-obamas-agenda/#comments
Interesting blog post on the New York Times’ “The Lede” from today (Feb 24): http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/infertility-group-battles-anti-abortion-bills-in-virginia-and-other-states/
The Republican state delegates and senators of Virginia should have taken a clue on how unpopular such “personhood” legislation really is…one such measure was defeated in, of all places, Mississippi: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57321126/mississippis-personhood-amendment-fails-at-polls/
But then again, the current crop of Republican representatives in Virginia isn’t the smartest and the brightest.
“A slight few women use abortion as a form of birth control…”.
This is simply untrue. If it is not birth control — what is it? At least be honest and admit that most abortions are done because having a baby is not convenient for the woman at that time in her life.
gdad – if most voters agree with abortion on demand, why did it take a supreme court ruling to implement it and other legilation from the bench to keep it?
“These old white men have no business dictating a woman’s GOD given right to choose!!!”
I do not think God ever gave woman right to choose to end a life His miracle has created.
From
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/abortion/page5_em.htm
First-trimester surgical abortion
◦Early terminations are performed with little cervical dilatation and using a hand-held syringe or a small-bore cannula (a tube) attached to a suction machine. Abortions performed with a syringe are referred to as manual aspirations (or menstrual extractions). Those performed with the suction generated by a vacuum aspirator are referred to as a vacuum aspiration. Both procedures take only a few minutes.
◦Tools are used to grasp the cervix after it has been prepared with Betadine and possibly numbed. The cannula is carefully inserted through the cervix into your uterus. The actual evacuation is performed by applying suction to the syringe or via the machine. The procedure takes a few minutes to complete. There is a small amount of blood loss.
Now THAT’S invasive
http://www.abort73.com/videos/this_is_abortion/
to the “it’s just a collection of cells” proponants out there –
I DARE YOU TO WATCH THIS VIDEO
when does it become a life?
Below is a link to letter written by one member of the Virginia State Senate. It’s one of the most intelligent presentations, in my view, on what’s happening in the Virginia legislature right now. Unfortunately, it’s also happening in legislatures across the country. It explains why the general public is so fed up with politicians.
http://www.delmarvanow.com/article/20120222/ESN02/202220328/Cultural-crusades-gone-too-far?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Eastern Shore News|p
This might blow Suzie’s mind (and some others), but apparently her beloved Rick Santorum was pro-choice until he got into politics…that’s probably going to hurt his chances of ever being elected Pope, too!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/21/rick-santorum-abortion_n_1291634.html
I have noted with some interest that Governor Bob has been busy moderating his positions on several sensitive issues. I, too, concluded that he wants to change his title to Vice President Bob. A MUCH better choice than the last Republican VP candidate, who actually swung my vote to Obama.
Gov. McDonnell is lying. He has told a Politico.com panel today that he didn’t know the proposed bill on forced ultrasounds on women seeking a legal abortion in Va.
He knew EXACTLY what this bill would force women to do: be forcibly raped — at the hands of her doctor, and the state would mandate he or she perform the procedure — before she could obtain an abortion in Virginia.
If he just realized this in the last few days then what the hell has he been doing to not see it on TV, read it in the papers, or be briefed by his staff about the protests on the state capitol grounds RIGHT BESIDE HIS HOUSE?!?!?!?!
Gov. McDonnell is lying.
He knew. … shameful.
In response to Saintbridge’s comment above:
McDonnell said this morning that Cuccinelli had persuaded him the bill was bad!? Is would-be Gov. Ken now trying to back away from that dog, too?
“I got legal advice from various people, including my attorney general, that these kinds of mandatory invasive requirements might run afoul of Fourth Amendment law,” McDonnell said. The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution guards against unreasonable search and seizure.
“I support the bill. I still support the bill. That never forfeits a governor’s rights to make amendments,” McDonnell said, adding he had not initiated the legislation and that it was pushed by legislators instead.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/virginia-gov-mcdonnell-says-he-dropped-controversial-ultrasound-bill-over-legal-concerns/2012/02/24/gIQA3MTnXR_story.html
This exemplifies exactly what is wrong with our two-party political system. One party interprets victory or a majority in a branch of government as its chance to implement policies that are neither discussed or debated much during campaigns nor are supported by a majority of the electorate. Those elected by the two major parties attempt to ram these minority issues through because they mistakenly believe the electorate will not notice and because they believe it will score financial support from the issue groups in upcoming campaigns. Thankfully, the electorate awakened to the shenanigans in Richmond and called them out this time.
“The governor has no clothes!”
Dan, shouldn’t the legislators ask the AG what they think about the validity of proposed bills before proposing them? If they did in this case, did the AG say the bill didn’t violate the 4th?
So yeah, to paraphrase, “what do these guys believe, and when do they believe it?”
I heartily recommend people go watch the video of Gov. Bob and Md.’s Gov. O’Malley today; it’s an hour long discussion of topics across the spectrum. O’Malley sends Bob to the woodshed.
Don’t know how long it will stay active, but here is the link to it as of this afternoon:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Politico
will, the personhood bill is not about declaring “when does it become a life”, it’s about when does it become a HUMAN life. That makes these bills an embodiment of specism, much as Jim Crow laws embodied racism.
Science has proven that being “Human” is but one variation on a formula using the same materials as other life, not the biologically unique status that simplistic dogma is predicated on it being. Our current Human genotype is a bit of a temporary formula in the long scope of evolution, and even currently, there is commonly more than one single genetic formula that constitutes human life, for example Trisomy genotypes. The proven interrelattionships in the family of life make those fixated on the single issue of abortion seem awfully myopic if they ignore all the other ways that dishonor life. (e.g. “end abortion and the EPA”!)
Better make sure not to pass that adoption discrimination bill! We are going to need all of the extra parents we can get!
Tagline…
“Virginia! Shooting itself in the foot.”
Will, if you believe those pictures, how can you still believe a woman would do that lightly or for mere “convenience”? Says a lot about what you think of women.
Saintbridge…
“…this bill would force women to do: be forcibly raped”
I suppose having the modern day Executioner shoving clamps, cutting tools and a vacuum into your vagina is different?
You have lost your mind.
#31 If most voters agree with the ultrasound and personhood bills, will, why did Repub legislators back away from them?
#35 On top of that, Saintly Santorum’s wife had a 6 year relationship with an abortionist, who also was the Doctor who delivered her. This is quite interesting:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087812/Rick-Santorums-wife-Karen-love-affair-abortion-doctor.html
The kind of legislation that was introduced here makes me embarrassed to be a Virginian. There are no other first world countries still fighting this fight, but apparently America is turning into a theocracy (though ironically, the very folks jumping up and down about abortion are anti-theocracies in other countries). Most abortions take place very early on. These (primarily) men seem to have no problem seeing what is usually about a teaspoon of tissue as a “person.” How about seeing WOMEN as people, who believe it or not actually have thought about their actions and the repercussions and still, at least for now, have the right to govern their own bodies? Nobody WANTS to have an abortion. It’s chosen as the least bad option among several bad options (such as raising a child alone, or with drug addiction, or in an abusive situation, or no money and no job….)
Jack @ 11 writes:
“I was surprised how many people were opposed to the ultrasound, but supported Obamacare.
It was Obamacare that opened the door to the government making medical decisions for you. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.
You either want the government to make medical decisions on your behalf, or you don’t.”
Likewise, I am surprised that those OPPOSED to “Obamacare” are so vehemently in support of the ultrasound bill, i.e. a governmental decision about healthcare. As you said, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
http://pro-lifetube.com/videos/246/live-action-media
politics and religion aside, does anyone actually think there is nothing wrong with this?
Do you think this is right Dan?
“Yep, those Repubs are REAL courageous lot. And look at all the time they’v been spending on those promised “jobs” bills. Comment by gdad — February 24, 2012 @ 8:15 am”
where are all those n0bammy shovel-ready jobs ..hmmmm?????????? there weren’t any, he’s a liar, always was, always will be
This might blow Suzie’s mind (and some others), but apparently her beloved Rick Santorum was pro-choice until he got into politics…that’s probably going to hurt his chances of ever being elected Pope, too!
Anyobody who reads the linked Santorum statement would see it clearly is an affirmation of his pro-life position.
This is like I predicted; Because the left cannot legitimately attack Santorum, they’ll have to make stuff up. That’s what this claim that Santorum was “pro-choice” is. Made up.
“http://www.abort73.com/videos/this_is_abortion/
to the “it’s just a collection of cells” proponants out there –
I DARE YOU TO WATCH THIS VIDEO
when does it become a life?
Comment by will — February 24, 2012 @ 1:35 pm”
I watched it will and I must say it was quite disturbing. I see parts of babies and they have all complete skeletal and a lot of organs, eyes, fingernails…how can any woman murder that child, for any reason. It isn’t a part of her, it is a separate human.
…and LIFE begins at CONCEPTION…it is alive…if you don’t belive that, then when does it become a life? bet you can’t answer that libbiecoms
#50 Still completely unable to address the question that was asked, eh, pammala? What a ninny.
BTW, one of those jobs is going on right now on I-81 between Ironto and Christiansburg.
Sandi -
“43.Will, if you believe those pictures, how can you still believe a woman would do that lightly or for mere “convenience”? Says a lot about what you think of women.”
I never said anyone comes to that decision lightly. However perhaps if the truth was told about what abortion is and just how alive the owners of those little feet and hands are, fewer women would chose that option.
And you supporting abortion shows a lot of what you think about babies. If most abortions are not done because a baby would be inconvenient for the woman at that stage of her life then why are we killing over 1 million babies a year? Maybe you would use terms such as, “I can’t afford a baby right now” or ” I have to finish school”or “it was just a one night stand” or “I’m just not ready to take on that responsibility” or “I’m not ready to settle down” or “I didn’t plan on getting pregnant” or WHATEVER, it still boils down to not wanting to have your life interupted by a child. Call it what you want a rose by any other name—
Did you watch the video do YOU personally really believe that’s not a life and that it is right to end it?
Note how the right-wing trolls on this blog are unable to address in any manner whatsoever the way state Rethugs have wimped out on their “principles” and have failed to fulfill any of their “jobs” promises.
50 million+ dead babies, probably half of them little girls. Do any of you enlightened women out there care about their RIGHT TO LIFE?
25 million+ little girls who were denied the most basic right of all —–
TO EXIST!
Watch the video and explain to me why this should be allowed to continue.
Have you watched any video from the Middle East in the past year to see what happens if you don’t have individual freedom and don’t do what the theocracy says?
Although unsure what a “libbiecom” is, and therefore not sure whether I’m among those pammala was asking, I’ll answer the question. pammala, you must be more specific: what kind of life? If it’s HUMAN life you wonder about, the answer is no sooner than at the time of creation of the morula, although there is a valid case that it may be even later. But science shows that all known life forms are constituted of the same basic materials, so we must also be clear about a definiton of what is human life.
Is a “libbiecom” someone who understands basic biology?
49, 52
will
pammala
How DARE you show people the REALITY of what’s actually happening.
Who do you think you are?
——-
What is the best way to attack God?
You attack and kill the most innocent and precious of His creations and you work to convince the world that His most precious creation is worthless.
That’s what this is all about, IMO.
(Mock me all day long if you like.)
In some cases pammala, apparently never.
Just wanted to say, greatest title for a blog post ever.
@44: There is a difference. One is an optional procedure that is legal. The other is by force and that is illegal.
Let me understand you …
Are you saying that forcing a woman to be penetrated for no medical reason prior to her wish to terminate her pregnancy is justified? Object sexual penetration just to try to humiliate a woman is a good thing for the government to do?
Go sell crazy somewhere else, we’re all full here, as a wise wag once said.
if you don’t belive that, then when does it become a life? bet you can’t answer that libbiecoms
They try to come up with all these arbitrary stages in order to justify abortions. But even then it all falls apart when the support 0bama’s vote to kill fully formed babies from botched late-term abortions. At that point, leftwingers show their true colors. They DON’T CARE that it’s a living human being. So all thire crap about “When does life begin?” is just for show.
#51 most ill-informed. You do a lot of “predicting”…any chance we can get your prediction on when you will be moving on from this blog…I have a party to throw.
To all of you clamoring for the unborn – here’s something for you to think about…
There were in 2009 [last report] a total of 114,562 children waiting to be adopted in the US – children who had been abandoned, beaten, molested, starved or whose parents willingly terminated their rights . This doesn’t include children who would “age out” or whose goal was emancipation before the end of that year of 2009. How many of you anti-choice people are adopting or fostering children? Will you use the excuse that it is “inconvenient”, too expensive, or you are just not ready for the care of another child. These are living, breathing children sitting in foster homes waiting for a family – sometimes the “family” never comes…so while your concern for the unborn may be authentic, put your money where you loud mouths are, step up to the plate, and foster or adopt a child that already exists – not on a video, not as a bumper sticker, not in a campaign slogan, not in theory, and not in utero – actual bona fide children…or does your concern extend only as far as women’s uteruses?
Hypocrites all.
64
Saintbridge, you said it was “forcible rape”.
That’s beyond the pale.
Good point Suzie, but then again, we are not the ones slinging “all thire crap about “When does life begin?”. That would be you toots!
I am IN Hillary! Hate that ‘white hot’ has to burn you up from the inside sometime. Or maybe someday Dan will want his blog back. Who knows, but it will be a cause for celebration.
“if you don’t belive that, then when does it become a life? bet you can’t answer that libbiecoms”
“They DON’T CARE that it’s a living human being. So all thire(sic) crap about “When does life begin?” is just for show.”
What I DON’T CARE about is your faith based extremist opinions. You rail about a medical procedure that is legal, and unless you are the one wanting an abortion, it is none of your business. You extremist right wingers spout the Bible, blah, blah, blah, and truth be known you wouldn’t turn your hand to help this “being” as soon as it is born. The Va. GOP has shown their true colors and now it’s time to dump them.
It’s an exaggeration to call performing a transvaginal ultrasound on an unwilling woman “forcible rape.” But LC, it still amounts to sticking an unwanted object in a woman’s vagina.
And given that the experience elsewhere with mandated ultrasounds has little if any effect on women seeking abortions, why would anybody suggest it anyway — unless the procedure was merely to hassle women who wanted abortions.
AND, now that the only bill alive (abdominal ultrasounds) won’t produce the date the sponsors say is necessary to ensure “women’s health,” the legislation has been exposed as ONLY that: a way to hassle abortion seekers.
(BTW, did you read the story about Santorum’s wife, who lived with an abortion doc 40 years older than her for 5 years before she met Ricky? Pretty astounding).
Blue John,
Welcome back!
Thanks Dan!
#68 LC – oh really. Here’s the Virginia Code
18.2-67.2. Object sexual penetration; penalty.
A. An accused shall be guilty of inanimate or animate object sexual penetration if he or she penetrates the labia majora or anus of a complaining witness, whether or not his or her spouse, other than for a bona fide medical purpose, or causes such complaining witness to so penetrate his or her own body with an object or causes a complaining witness, whether or not his or her spouse, to engage in such acts with any other person or to penetrate, or to be penetrated by, an animal, and
2. The act is accomplished against the will of the complaining witness, by force, threat or intimidation of or against the complaining witness or another person, or through the use of the complaining witness’s mental incapacity or physical helplessness.
The case could be made that this forced non-necessary medical procedure is not “bona-fide”, especially when the physician is being compelled by the Commonwealth to perform the procedure, against the wishes of the patient and not for legitimate medical purposes.
It could probably be challenged on a 4th Amendment violation.
Another question for all that against women having abortions….Are you going to take these babies and bring them into your homes, are you going to house, educate and care for them…answer…No ….you all espouse to the right to life but you don’t follow through..because if you did you wouldn’t be against gay/lesiban couples adopting…but oh yeah Right wing Santourum fans are against that too…so when you all step to take of all these children be sure and let the rest of us that are pro-choice know please…thanks ever so much
Love the message Blue John!!!
and actually it could be considered a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
This whole trans-vaginal thing would be a non-issue if Erectile dysfunction users had to get a prostate exam before getting their medication.
Seriously.
Let it go, people.
Good to see you back Blue John, you need to post more often! Hope you are well. You can be gone for days or months and nothing really changes here. But it is always good to see an old friend.
LC: I win.
Comment by Tina — February 24, 2012 @ 7:35 pm
really?
oh please, have you never heard of adoption? there are thousands of straight married couples wanting children..and they are a real family, a man and a woman. that’s the only moral and decent way to raise a child. i dont see how you people can think an vaginal ultrasound is more invasive than abortion, you really should view the video will posted…of course if you’re INTO murder, then….
More proof that the “invasive procedure” is a straw dog. 99% of abortion clinics already require it:
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/22/planned-parenthood-rape-myth-debunked-99-do-ultrasounds/
Thus, no solid grounds to objection, proving PP’s problem is the patients seeing the untrasound. It’s all about potential lost revenue for these hypocrites. Keep holding their feet to the fire!
“More proof that the “invasive procedure” is a straw dog. 99% of abortion clinics already require it:
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/22/planned-parenthood-rape-myth-debunked-99-do-ultrasounds/
Thus, no solid grounds to objection, proving PP’s problem is the patients seeing the untrasound. It’s all about potential lost revenue for these hypocrites. Keep holding their feet to the fire!”
Nice try, Suze, but neither the original law nor the amended version required the woman to see the ultrasound results. That always was optional.
There’s one state that requires they see it, though, and it’s an interesting concept. I wonder how they force that.
Nice try, Suze, but neither the original law nor the amended version required the woman to see the ultrasound results. That always was optional.
I never said there was. But you can be sure PP didn’t allow women to see them before. Now at least women are aware of it, so the modified bill may have done its job anyway. It educated people. And educated patients is exactly what the abortion mills do NOT want.
Any news on how the right wing hypocrites square the government mandate for an ultrasound “that is good for you” being important and the government mandate to buy health insurance “that is good for you” being an invasive abuse of their personal privacy and freedom? Oh I get it, one allows them to cheer fellow religious zealots and one allows them to hate and blame Obama. Splains it all.
Most ill-informed @82. According to your own source, “Vaginal ultrasound was always performed before the early surgical abortion at 59 (83%) sites, UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS” [my caps]
VA wanted under all conditions if you wished to terminate a pregnancy…not when it was medically necessary.
Words matter, and so does reading through the whole “anti-abortion” site you sourced.
Additionally, “Most prenatal ultrasound procedures are performed topically, or on the surface of the skin, using a gel as a conductive medium to aid in the quality of the image.”
[unless of course you want to punish women for the reproductive choices they make]
“However, a transvaginal ultrasound is an alternative procedure performed using a tubular probe that is inserted into the vaginal canal. This method of ultrasound produces an image quality that is greatly enhanced, but it is not a common prenatal procedure [...] to get a clearer view of the uterus or ovaries IF A PROBLEM IS SUSPECTED.” [my caps]
http://www.webmd.com/baby/ultrasound
Try getting your facts straight – oh, that’s right, it’s you…hyperbole and hypocrisy, but no contextual facts.
Since the RWers here have battling videos – here is an actual ultra sound picture of what VA was going to use as a guilt inducing -change-your-mind tactic. The pictures are of a 7week fetus – almost 62% of all terminations occur at less than 9 weeks http://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.php#stages
Ultra sound picture here…
http://www.google.com/search?q=picture+of+ultrasound+at+7+weeks&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
pammalapdog, how many children have you adopted?
Let me pose a hypothetical question to those who are pro-life except in certain cases where they favor the death penalty. If it could be determined with, say, 98-99% accuracy that the pregnancy a woman wanted to terminate would result in the birth of a person who would become an ‘abortion doctor’ were it to go full-term, would you still be against the abortion? Would your reasoning be that there’s still a 1-2% chance that the person would NOT become an abortion doctor or that there is still a chance that parents, society, God, whoever will steer them to a different life choice? If so, how can you be in favor of the death penalty in cases where the person may possibly, (not definitely–we can’t predict the future with 100% accuracy no matter what certain people may say on this blog) commit another murder? Aren’t you taking away their chance of ever finding Jesus or becoming saved or reaching whatever epiphany is necessary for them to enter Heaven?
“But you can be sure PP didn’t allow women to see them before.”
Prove it.
Thanks for the kind words Tina and Sandi,
It’s unbelievable that the right wingers are trying to justify this stain on Virginia. Even more unbelievable that some of them are women. Have a great weekend!
Blue John
you are quite welcome…especially when what you right !!! Glad to see there are still some sane ppl in this state…i swear they are trying to set women’s rights back 150 yrs…I hope the right wing realize that women are the majority right now and you can bet at least 8 outta 10 are going to vote for our current President and vote out these rep.s in Va
13 suns
to compare the death penalty to having an abortion is ludricous..and God certainly is going to raise these children..
killing unborn children is murder anyway you look at it, you cannot change that fact libbie coms.. and you’re fond of the term, cant put lipstick on a pig..always trying to justify murder is sick sick sick..but then…
Any news on how the right wing hypocrites square the government mandate for an ultrasound “that is good for you” being important and the government mandate to buy health insurance “that is good for you” being an invasive abuse of their personal privacy and freedom? Oh I get it, one allows them to cheer fellow religious zealots and one allows them to hate and blame Obama. Splains it all.
That’s easy. Women seeing their ultrasound may well save the life of their babies, whereas government forcing you to buy their expensive shoddy insurance coverages is a bad deal for everybody. Hope that clears it up for you, dear. Now back to the Jerry Springer reruns for you.
“Women seeing their ultrasound may well save the life of their babies. . .”
You got any facts to back this up, or is this another “I don’t needum”
So your hypocrisy is “justified” and other people are just Jerry Springer fans. Wow, what a fount of knowledge you are. Stunning in fact. Pardon us if we take our direction from anyone but you and pammala on the subject of what is going to “save babies” or if we refuse to believe that either of you actually give a tinker’s damn about babies after they are born. Your hatred has proceeded you and your lack of humanity follows you. Pretending you are against a woman having a choice to end an unwanted pregnancy while all the time ranting against safety nets to help them, sex education and contraceptives to prevent the need has answered loud and clear from you blatant hypocrites. You just see an opening for your Theocracy to control women. Nothing new there!
Still —– politics and religion aside, someone watch the video and tell me YOU honestly do not see anything wrong with it.
http://pro-lifetube.com/videos/246/live-action-media
Hillary, Tina, Dan, Rick, gdad how about it? Is this right? Does this not bother your conscience?
Especially you Blue John. Your lack of a belief in God aside, do you honestly see nothing wrong with the fact that this is being done to over 1 million pairs of tiny arms and legs every year in our country?
Sandi – the answer is abstinence until a person is mature enough and in a position to want a baby. It works every time it’s tried.
Just because you people think we evolved from monkeys doesn’t mean we have to act like monkeys. Oh, BTW, even monkeys do not abort their babies.
will, it is apparent that the only monkeys involved are the ones without the brain capacity to notice that abstinence has never worked as a plan to reduce abortions or pre-marital sex. Doubtless some of you Puritans can control what you consider your “baser needs”, but in the real world, people have sex, apparently lots of it and even in prominent, well educated, well indoctrinated families, abstinence is not what is happening. You can deal in the hypotheticals as you like (BTW monkeys will kill babies), but in the real world, you cannot stop abortion and you can only lessen it the way I said. It was illegal once…and it was overturned for a reason. This is using Theocracy to control women, nothing more.
If it was about “saving babies” none of you would be here all the time ranting against safety nets to help women choose life or sex education and contraceptives to prevent the need for an abortion. Period.
#98: will, please look at these ultrasound photos, (link provided by Hillary) and identify the “tiny arms and legs”. They are seven week fetuses, and nearly 2/3 of all abortions are done by nine weeks:
http://www.google.com/search?q=picture+of+ultrasound+at+7+weeks&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Note that the circle you see in the ultrasounds is NOT a head, it the nutritive yolk sac.
So, you can either adjust the numbers in your rhetoric to be accurate, or be ignorant in public and lose credibilty for your position because of willful distortion of the facts. Your claim that “This is being done to over one million tiny arms and legs every year in our country” is INCORRECT.
No one finds later term abortion to be a pleasant thing, and links like yours that seek to sensationalize the debate (particularly for those impressionable folks without a background in viewing surgical procedures of any kind, apparently this includes you) do a disservice to calm, informed debate. Obviously you believe the debate should not remain calm, but as for being informed, you cannot distort the truth and prevail. Thus, tell us where the arms and legs are on the seven week fetus, or reduce your claim to the appropriate number, which is a distinct minority of all abortions.
And when you realize that there are no “tiny arms and legs” in at least 2/3 of all aborted fetuses, you will still be facing the proven fact that ALL life is derived from the same organic materials, be it man, mule or HIV, and carbon dating science is absolutely valid. So it is most accurate to say that we did not derive from monkeys; both monkeys and ourselves share a common ancestry with poison ivy, pond slime, cockroaches, dungflies and Eric Cantor.
But, while some people grind on about the single issue of abortion, much bigger life issues already loom. Biological science is making astounding achievements. 30,000 year old DNA has been reconstituted into a living plant. Stem cells are being found to transmute into virtually any tissue type, and there may be cells in the post-menopausal uterus that can still create life. We know for sure now that there is water on the moon and likely elsewhere in space. And probably planets in habitable zones.
So, beyond abortion, there is much reason to calmly debate our scientific directions, but only with accurate facts. You want to talk about existential danger? Nanotechnology, robotics and artificial intelligence could eventually threaten the very idea of organic life. Most profoundly, and most threatening to any religious scheme that depends on a reality where “humans” are the favored life form of “God”, we now know that Neils Bohrs’ idea that quantom particles have entanglement that does not require proximity (locality) is actually true. We can’t explain why at this time, but we must already accomodate the truth of the science.
So, sorry, will, but your preference for emotional reflex over calmly stating a case loses you more people than it gains, and the quality of those you do gain will be lesser by having ignoring our whole body of knowledge. So be more honest in your claims. Or do you want to be known as a fact aborter?
will-
“Just because you people think we evolved from monkeys”
It’s adorable how you people refuse to get even the simplest of details about evolution correct.
“doesn’t mean we have to act like monkeys. Oh, BTW, even monkeys do not abort their babies.”
However, almost all great primates commit infanticide.
Dan Casey-
“You got any facts to back this up, or is this another “I don’t needum””
Good line. I’ll have to remember it when other subjects come up.
pammala-
“killing unborn children is murder anyway you look at it”
Nope. Words have meaning and murder isn’t any exception. For a killing to be murder, it must be unlawful (which abortion isn’t) and must include malice aforethought. Since most people who get abortions don’t even think they are getting rid of a “baby”, you can’t show malice.
So when you call it murder, you’re just wrong, regardless of who is correct on the philosophical and medical issues.
Warren
And I suspect Eric Cantor’s is much closer to the dungfly
“Women seeing their ultrasound may well save the life of their babies. . .”
You got any facts to back this up, or is this another “I don’t needum”
Comment by Dan Casey — February 27, 2012 @ 8:23 am
Ooops Missed this comment. Here is the source:
“Using individual-level data from the NLSY and state-level data on ultrasound laws, results of the present study suggest that ultrasound laws had a very significant and negative effect on the abortion decision. ”
http://www.na-businesspress.com/JABE/GiusM_Web12_5_.pdf
(Sigh). Why do they keep challenging when the result is always the same? Busted and owned. Hey people, there’s a reason why girl is undefeated in two years.
“Hey people, there’s a reason why girl is undefeated in two years.”
Does your ‘record’ include those questions you refuse to answer by running away from them?
If only you gave a damn for that child after it was forced to be born, I might be able to applaud your machinations. As it is, you are just another controlling, nanny state when it suits you, right wing nutcase putting a guilt trip on women. As per usual, your hatefilled remarks precede your faux concern.
Undefeated = Deranged.
Locking a woman in a cell for nine months assures she will choose to give birth too. So what? I am sure you are proud to browbeat and intimidate a woman into doing as you demand, of course after that the B is on her own, but you can tell God you did your part…or can you? I think not.
The study you cite also contains a big, fat qualification that tends to undermines the study’s suggestion. It notes that ultrasound laws exist in a handful of states that already had low abortions rates before the laws were enacted. “It may be that women in a particular state may demand fewer abortions without an ultrasound requirement law.”
“In one of the few studies of the issue — there have been none in the United States — two abortion clinics in British Columbia found that 73 percent of patients wanted to see an image if offered the chance. Eighty-four percent of the 254 women who viewed sonograms said it did not make the experience more difficult, and none reversed her decision.
That generally has also been the case in Alabama, which enacted its law, the first of its kind in the United States, in 2002.
“About half of women opt to view them,” said Diane Derzis, who owns the Birmingham clinic. “And I’ve never had one patient get off the table because she saw what her fetus looks like.”
In some instances, the ultrasounds have affected women in ways not intended by anti-abortion strategists. Because human features may barely be detectable during much of the first trimester, when 9 of 10 abortions are performed, some women find viewing the images reassuring.
“It just looked like a little egg, and I couldn’t see arms or legs or a face,” said Tiesha, 27, who chose to view her 8-week-old embryo before aborting it at the Birmingham clinic. “It was really the picture of the ultrasound that made me feel it was O.K.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/health/policy/28ultrasound.html
Heartbeats are powerful.
But then, so is denial and our desire to live the way WE want to.
I quoted the study’s conclusion, Dan, that ultrasounds made a signficant difference in whether abortions are carried out.
The leftwingers and PP understand this obvious fact, and they see big money slipping away. That’s why they hate the thought of women having that bit of information.
#104 most ill-informed posted “Why do they keep challenging when the result is always the same? ”
Easy answer, you do sloppy “research” and you are more often than not just plain WRONG – example follows:
Firstly, if you actually read the whole article, [you can read, can’t you?] it emphatically states that on their own, abortion rates were falling prior to ultra sound being forced on women. Ultra sound is used when the age of the fetus is in question, or the health of the fetus and mother are of a concern and where states have legislated ultra sound when a woman chooses termination. Because of these laws, an increase in the use of this test has been reported nationally. Planned Parenthood has used ultra sound for years for both legal and medical reasons.
Secondly, this is a paper written by a faculty member of Quinniplac University without peer review.
An important quote you failed to note – sometimes reading just the link description doesn’t give the whole picture – “At about the same time that abortion rates were starting to fall, usage rates for diagnostic ultrasound for pregnancies began to increase (mid-1990’s to 2005) Although this increase in the use of ultrasounds may not be statistically correlated with the decline in the abortion rate observed over the same period, […]”
This author uses, “it is possible”; “this may be”; “thus possibly”; “which may mean” an awful lot. Because there is no definitive correlation between ultra sound and the reduction in abortion rates, only suppositions can be made which in fact he does, then recommends further research. There was one interesting point from the research done state by state however, “The study also showed that states with Republican governors, […] had on average higher abortion rates.”
“The highest abortion rate for the group of states that have an ultrasound law was South Carolina.”
The author’s conclusive remarks, “It may be that women in a particular state may demand fewer abortions, with or without an ultrasound requirement law. This is a topic that should be addressed in future research”
It is very sad so many people are so passionate about killing babies. And Warren, watch the video – almost all of these tiny arms and legs come from
first tri-mester abortions. If you want to be pro abortion at least be honest enough to say you believe a woman’s rights include tearing these little bodies limb from limb.
http://pro-lifetube.com/videos/246/live-action-media
will, no one should doubt the horrors of war, yet graphic video of the war in Iraq was censured by the Bush administration as counter-productive. Did you agree with their position on that?