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Shot by Dan Monday in Annapolis
“Conscience. That stuff can drive you nuts.”
Budd Schulberg
Hey folks, one of my all-time favorite novels is “What Makes Sammy Run?” by Budd Schulberg. A truly great read, and highly recommended.
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And the wife left em…cracked..on the floor..
and useless for future endeavors.
Never even to be considered for
a heated first class plane dish..
any kind of trail mix.
Happy Trails
“Senior Nuttyshell” I think I will change my on line name I like that so much. Believe me my family will agree with you. It has occurred to me that this blog is not representative of the makeup of conservatives to liberals. See http://www.gallup.com/poll/141032/2010-conservatives-outnumber-moderates-liberals.aspx this blog is heavily weighted with liberals. Most of my close friends, neighbors, fellow club members, and family members are conservative. As a matter fact I don’t know that many liberals. I do have one pretty good friend that is a liberal and we agree to disagree. They are all well educated successful people so don’t think that this blog accurately reflects the makeup of our society. One of the few things that really bugs me about liberals is that “they” try to paint conservatives as uneducated, gun carrying rednecks. That just has not been my experience. Most conservatives that I know are very well educated and very successful people. I don’t have a problem with difference of opinions. I actually enjoy debating issues with liberals I just think they are mostly wrong. I can’t wait until the Supreme Court decision in June. I also think this November will be telling. President Obama will be very difficult to beat as he is a great orator and is very popular. However he is going to have a hard time over coming high gas prices and a faltering economy. I’m very pleased Rick Santorum dropped from the race. In my opinion he was nothing more than a conservative Obama. This may shock many of you bit I probably would vote for Mark Warner over Rick Santorum as Senator Warner has real world business experience. We need a business man with a proven track record of success as President. I think we will get just that in November.
Headed to an afternoon mtg. In Detroit have a good fellow bloggers.
“This may shock many of you bit I probably would vote for Mark Warner over Rick Santorum as Senator Warner has real world business experience.”
I’ll go on record as not being surprised by this.
#2 “Most conservatives that I know are very well educated and very successful people. ”
I could be wrong, Michael, but I’ll bet you mostly hang out with well-educated and successful people. I DO not try to paint most conservatives as uneducated rednecks, but believe me, they’re out there.
Ah, the dishonesty of Wisconsin Republicans. Running fake candidates in the Democratic primaries to gum things up.
http://mountpleasant.patch.com/articles/state-democrats-file-protest-over-gop-protest-recall-candidates
Michael, I guess the tags liberal and conservative are relative…depending on who is using them. I believe there are a number of “moderates” and “independents” on this blog (which I consider myself). The problem I see with a lot if right wing republicans is that if you don’t go along with everything they believe and say, you are a socialist, Marxist, communist, no-a-count sob. Just saying’
Speaking of gas prices, I noticed that the prices at the Kroger at Towers have gone down $.06 in the last few days. Will the President get any credit for that?
Have fun in Detroit, Ron! Too bad game 2 of the Wings-Preds series is in Nashville tonight, and that the Tigers open their first road trip of the season in Chicago as well…
The Pistons are in town playing the Bucks, but given that neither team is playoff-caliber, I wouldn’t recommend going to the game even if you had the time…
2. Michael Howdyshell – We had an MBA in the White House in 2008. Not too many are happy with the way he left the economy. We need a political leader in the White House, the last thing we need is a leveraged buy-out specialist bought and paid for by Wall Street.
Michael H, your circle of friends and acquaintances is not this nation of 307 million. That you do not know any poor, redneck conservatives does not mean they are not the majority of the nation’s conservative party. The 10% of the nation you dwell among is TEN PERCENT of the nation we have. That leaves 90 percent of the nation to be made up of those dreaded liberals, conservatives and apathetic folks you have never met. Judging the world by your little corner of the microcosm is dangerous.
Certainly Roanoke has liberals, some also quite educated, wealthy and living the dream. Don’t forget that.
Willard Romney will never be President of the United States.
A lot can happen over the course of the election season. A lot will happen, I have no doubt. It will not be an easy or pretty contest. In the end America is not going to elect an ultra rich, Wall Street fat cat who baptizes dead people. No way, no how. This has nothing to do with Obama. It has to do with “the devil you know” syndrome. You may call me as crazy as you like, say I am spitting into the wind, say I am tempting fate, say I am wrong. This nation needs something, it needs to believe in us again, but what it does not need is to jump out of the fire and into the frying pan. Blame yourselves for choosing so poorly, blame the powers that be for a sacrificial lamb, blame the ODS for the lack of vision, but Willard Romney will never be President of the United States.
I have many friends and family members who are conservatives, Michael. We agree to disagree politically, and I forgive them for the error of their ways.
One of the things that really bugs me about a lot of conservatives is that they think all liberals are lazy and want everything handed to them. Not true at all. I don’t worship money, but I have always worked for what I have, as do my liberal friends and family members. Most on here also claim that liberals worship Obama as a savior. Completely and utterly ridiculous.
I hang out with some liberals and they all have jobs, own houses, and raise nice families. I don’t think productivity and good citizenship is limited to either party. On the other hand, I don’t know too many people who are interested in spending a lot of time talking politics socially, so there are probably plenty of people I socialize with that I’m not famliar with their political leanings, nor they with mine.
Business people see their underlings as nothing but a negative to the bottom line, there to be fired at will for further enrichment at the top. I dont’ see how a “business person” view has any place in governance, at all. I can think of 1000 reasons Warner is superior to Santorum but that’s not one of them.
I don’t know why Romney will never be President. He has a good shot this year. Who wants 8 years of any President. It has devastating effects. They are all the same difference anyways.
If we don’t like two-term presidents, it doesn’t show in our voting patterns. Barring disaster, incumbents win, on any level. It took Romney months to put away the GOP nomination and not against any great competition. I dont’ see anything so fabulous about him that’s going to put him in a position to break the general election trend.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/obama_romney_favorable_unfavorable.html
People don’t like Romney. It’s his biggest problem.
Me neever Meester Howdyshell, I’s dont nose any rednex republicuns.
See yaw Mundy, Im hedn to a ramp cookin festavul cross tha border. Gotta pack my brass nuckles and my volver when ya head that ways.
I am liberal and consider Obama to be moderate. It is too easy to stereotype and group people left or right. I only know a few conservatives, and their positions are usually based on some flawed fact or logic. It takes a great deal of time to get all the facts and evaluate the impacts before forming an opinion. That is why conservatives tend to see things in black and white, and liberals are described as being whishy washy. The liberals I know tend to be more educated and have taken the time to research issues. But there are probably another group of uneducated liberals that are comparable to the uneducated conservatives mentioned above. We are all different, so we should be talking about the facts of a issue rather than ourselves.
#17 “I am liberal and consider Obama to be moderate”
I am a human and consider the Easter Bunny to be real.
Michael, if your support for a business man in politics is because you feel they are (by and large), responsible, capable, decisive and have integrity as well as empathy for their workers, then I agree. I have had the pleasure of working for such people for over 15 years, so I know precisely what it takes and what kind of people can do it. I agree Mark Warner is a good example and I look forward to him in 2016.
If you mean business men like George W. Bush, Willard Romney, the Koch Brothers, or the Enron, Tyco, Madoff, Goldman Sachs cretins, then hell no and then some.
Which is it?
Funny thing. I’m happen to be in Virginia this weekend for my wife’s ten year law school reunion (William and Mary).
Out of all her law school friends only two came from money. One is pretty conservative, the other quite liberal. The rest are middle class people who needed scholarships, grants, and loans to go to law school. Pretty much all of them are liberal. My wife is the daughter of an auto mechanic and office worker. She’s busted her ass for nearly twenty years to get where she is, and if anything, has become more liberal.
Anyway, the weather is gorgeous here as opposed to the chaotic Cleveland weather. And Virginia recognizes my Ohio carry permit, so, oogie boogie boogie! I’ve already had lunch in a restaurant that serves alcohol and…
Well, nothing happened of course, except that they were “out” of their baby back ribs which is why I wanted to eat there (come on Second St. Cafe, how the hell do you “run out” of ribs?). In what must be a shock to some here, I did not wig out from rib deprivation, scream, “Where my damn ribs,” and shoot up the place (though I did write that on the receipt).
What up Pistol Pete, I step on your toes Bubba?
WHERE ARE JASON’S DAMN RIBS?!
Testing Avatar. Sorry (Dan you can delete this if it doesn’t work.)
I’m beginning to think that those who claim every thread ends up being a gun thread are on to something. That being said, I’m glad Jason didn’t shoot his waitress.
#20 Well, Jason, I can ‘t think of a single person on this blog who would really think you would wig out simply because they didn’t have ribs. Seriously.
Now if you got really, really drunk, or something really frightened or startled you, or something just made you insanely angry? Maybe. But not being deprived of ribs.
Pistol Pete, we already knew that, but it took a big man to admit it.
#24 It’s part of a plot to bore everybody away from Dan’s blog.
There is just something strangely disquieting about a gun in your jacket making someone giddy. Jason, you are special, honest.
Michael Howdyshell offers another brilliant insight I almost missed: “…this blog is not representative of the makeup of conservatives to liberals“. Gee, do you think FlimFlambaugh’s, Coulter’s or O’Reilly’s blog is “representative of the makeup of conservatives to liberals”?
#26, one day, one of them will actually shoot someone. Things could get exciting quick.
I think anyone’s sense of the right to left mix in this country is entirely dependent on who they personally hang out with.
Jason
There are few places more beautiful than Williamsburg in the springtime.
William and Mary is a distinguished and wonderful place. And its law school underwent serious upgrading in the years after I left there. We are fortunate in Va. to have state schools as distinguished as William and Mary and UVA. We are unfortunate in that our neanderthal state legislature is making it more and more difficult for students to attend them by their inadequate funding efforts.
Re: #12
I have many friends and family members who are conservatives, Michael. We agree to disagree politically, and I forgive them for the error of their ways.
———
Ditto here. Actually, for me it would be more accurate to say, “I have many friends and family members who are extreme conservatives and others who are extreme liberals…. Most of us agree to disagree politically, and I forgive both wings for the error of their ways.”
OTOH, there are a few who can never stop trying to force their opinion on everyone.
And still others who have varying opinions as to what “agree to disagree” means.
In your opinion does it mean:
1) Continuing to Talk politics, religion, etc but not take it personal. That disputing a “position” or using shorthand labels (e.g., conservative, liberal, etc) is not in and of itself pejorative, disparaging, belittling or otherwise having negative connotations about the individual.
2) Avoiding all discussion of politics, religion, hot button issues, etc.
3) Some accepted sub-grouping of the many friends and family members — the old “We’ve invited “a”, so we can’t invite “z”, etc.
4) Some other option(s)
FWIIW, In my family-of-origin #1 prevailed (with one exception of a authoritarian maternal-side Aunt who was clearly the standout never-stop-trying-to-force-their-opinion member). So, in her case #3 was often practiced. Some observers claimed that my father’s family would pick a member to disagree on an issue in order to have a debate, even when they all actually agreed on the issue.
Now, my wife’s family-of-origin, OTOH……. Well let’s just say her mother got out of the John Birch Society because it was moving to the left and compromising the “true principles.”
.
.
FWIIW, my mother-in-law’s closing argument was typicality, “When you get to be my age, you will see….” and she was still saying that long after my wife and I were well past the age at which she had first used that “clincher.”
Re: #17
“I am liberal and consider Obama to be moderate”
———
One of my daughters once said that to a clerk who was blaming President Obama for a host of the country’s woes. The poor old guy look like he was going to have a heart-attack.
I don’t see where anyone else picked up on this.
What do you think?
http://tinyurl.com/79xfqyx
**
Ban on political ads on public TV struck down
(Reuters) – A divided U.S. appeals court struck down a federal ban on political advertising on public TV and radio stations, a decision that could open the public airwaves to a heavy dose of campaign ads leading up to the November elections.
By a 2-1 vote, a panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco said the Federal Communications Commission violated the First Amendment’s free speech clause by blocking public broadcasters from running political and public issue ads.
The court said the ban was too broad, and that lifting it would not threaten to undermine the educational nature of public broadcast stations. It upheld a ban on ads for goods and services on behalf of for-profit companies.
“Public issue and political speech in particular is at the very core of the First Amendment’s protection,” Judge Carlos Bea wrote in the main opinion.
SNIP
**
So far this has been one of the most pleasant weeks on this blog in over two years. Let’s all hope it holds!
So far this has been one of the more pleasant weeks on this blog in over two years. Let’s hope our luck holds!
Well, even the prosecution now agrees that Zimmerman did not utter a racial slur during the 911 call. At least that part is out of the way already.
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/prosecutors-zimmerman-did-not-1415809.html
Kristen, GDAD, Debbie always a pleasure to read your post . I enjoy them even when we disagree. Sandi pray tell why the in PC attacks. If I said the things about the candidate you support I can only image the things you would say about me. They really were not very nice. I understand if you disagree with him politically but why the personal attacks?
Dave Hicks, congrats to your daughter. And woe to that store clerk. Apparently doesn’t realize that the policies of the party opposing Obama work to keep him poor and without health insurance (unless he’s old enough to qualify for Medicare).
Oh joy. Now the secretive SuperPACS can run their tripe on PBS, too?
Re:#32 Dave H, Occasionally #1, usually #2. With friends there are other things to discuss besides politics, and my family is spread out in different states, so when we get together we have other things to talk about. We can discuss politics with out it becoming heated though. I’m blessed to have friends and family members with respect for each other and great senses of humor.
Regarding your daughter, Dave Hicks, great story.
Re: Political ads, I guess no place is safe anymore.
#35 I agree!
Click on the link to see what archaeologists believe are the remains of the first politician.
http://www.abundance-and-happiness.com/humor-first-politician.html
Do I hear an echo?
Debbie
Re: the remains of the first politician.
Actually I think that was the original leader of the “Tea” Party.
Well it looks like Republican Paul Ryan and his “budget” got called out by the Catholic Bishops – like being called down to the principals office…uh oh…
Catholic Leaders to Rep. Paul Ryan: Stop Distorting Church Teaching to Justify Immoral Budget April 13, 2012
Nearly 60 prominent theologians, priests, nuns and national Catholic social justice leaders released a statement today refuting Rep. Paul Ryan’s claim that his GOP budget proposal reflects Catholic teaching on care for the poor, which he made in an interview earlier this week with the Christian Broadcasting Network. The group of Catholic leaders — including a former high-ranking U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops official, a priest in Rep. Ryan’s district and the leadership team of the Sisters of Mercy of the Americas — called on Ryan to “reconsider his radical budget proposal and refrain from distorting Church teaching.” http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/newsroom/press/catholic-leaders-to-rep-paul-ryan-stop-distorting-church-teaching-to-justify-immoral-budget/
Sorry Michael Howdyshell, you lost me or I cannot decipher what you are saying. “Sandi pray tell why the in PC attacks. If I said the things about the candidate you support I can only image the things you would say about me. They really were not very nice. I understand if you disagree with him politically but why the personal attacks?” What post #? What “in PC attacks”?
Sorry Sandi. On Droid. I Ment non PC attacks on Mr. Romney.
1-in-5?????
I knew there were a bunch, but not 1-in-5.
http://tinyurl.com/7jdfudp
**
Why one in five U.S. adults don’t use the Internet
By Amy Gahran, Special to CNN
updated 6:56 PM EDT, Fri April 13, 2012
(CNN) — Even though the Internet has become a key tool for accessing services, getting an education, finding jobs, getting the news, keeping up with people you know and much more, one in five U.S. adults still does not use the Internet at all, according to a new Pew report.
Why? Mostly they’re just not interested — not in the Web, e-mail, YouTube, Facebook or anything else that happens online.
SNIP
**
OJ,
My visit to Detroit was over and back. It was a gathering of Catholic college presidents from Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, and a few from Illinois and Pennsylvania & New York to discuss “religious liberty” with some of the area bishops. Never got a chance to think about a ball game of anykind.
Plan to try get back over this summer for a Tigers game.
@45. I believe the species has been named ROMNELUS GOPCONICUS.
Michael Howdyshell, “Wall Street” is a place, “fat cat” might be non PC but Romney is one by any definition except the literal overweight feline, and he does baptize dead people. If you know a PC way to say all of that, bring it.
Pistol Pete, I love me some ramps! Can you bring some back for me? I can spray your car with Fabreeze when you bring them to me.
Debbie, that was very funny! I shared it on FB and my iPhone won’t stop dinging from all the friends that liked that.
I’m sure the Mormon church meant well, but I’m amazed that none of them could figure out how deeply offensive it was to posthumously baptize Jews killed in the Holocaust….dead specifically because they adhered to a religion that did NOT baptize. Other than that, I have to say that all of the <20 Mormons I've met in my life have been very nice and raise great kids. Looking at the Huntsman girls and the Romney boys I'm tempted to start giving up alcohol and caffeine myself. Almost.
MichaelH, you are always civil and although we don't agree, I suspect we could have a coversation IRL and both come out unscathed. And I think you built my bank, and I love my bank.
dave, you mentioned that this has been one of the most enjoyable weeks on this blog in years. you know why? the left nut casey is on vacation. take
his slanted ways and leave him on vacation for good. all he does is stir
everyone into a bad pot. maybe we can get him to go back to maryland or
even to new york where his views would be more appreciated.
Don’t look now but — is Jack back, under the guise of colorado max?
This makes me incredibly sad.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-14/african-american-parents-talk-to-sons-about-race/54258448/1?csp=ip
Bill Perdue, I first saw that picture on Facebook and went looking on the web for it to share on here.
Dan, I love how people that supposedly despise you keep visiting your blog. I guess it’s a special kind of sickness.
When I saw the ‘Welcome to the Nut House’ pic, I thought Dan had been to visit pammalapdog!
@Dan,
I only go by Jack.
Yes Kristen, our first job when we started the business. I know great timing. That job was cool as I live in the neighborhood and could spend a lot of time there.
Welcome to the Nut House reminded me of my new name “Nuttyshell”
Sandi
Why can’t you just stick to the issues and not attack folks personally. It’s ok if you disagree with Mr. Obama’s proposed tax policies or his views on foreign policy, etc etc, but please don’t attack what he does/did for a living (as long as it’s legal) or his religion. A least he has had a job outside of Government. I don’t believe Mr. Obama has ever done anything expect be a community organizer and a politician. It is the same way you attack people on the blog that you don’t agree with. It almost seems that you are angry at the world. Life really is too shirt.
upps sorry substitute Mr. Romney for Mr. Obama
Tri-State Bolts…(Nuts sold seperately)
http://www.haggard-stocking.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2011-12-30_10-48-02_664.jpg
To clarify comment #60, what makes me sad is that in 2012, parents still have to tell their children that you will be scrutinized solely for the color of your skin.
casey, i don’t know who jack was or is. i’m a native virginian born in roanoke and raised in the highlands. i just started reading the times again recently and your left nut rantings just got me going.
I saw this cartoon: “President Obama has announced that the sun will rise tomorrow, the Republicans immediately denounced him as being in favor of skin cancer.”
Michael Howdyshell,
Like you, I would prefer more civility on this blog, and you’re a good example of that. But in terms of criticizing Sandi, you’d be sitting a bit prettier on that high horse if you ALSO criticized pammalala for all of her “bammy” crapola.
colorado max,
Jack McGuire was a poster who was banned for using 4 letter words and the n-word, repeatedly. He also had a typing tic in which he seem unable, at times, to hit the space bar after a coma. And since he was banned, he’s tried to come back here under many different blog nicknames, using out-of-state IP addresses (such as yours) from various states, in whch he’s leveled criticisms similar to yours against me.
I actually bought “Jack” lunch once, and he was featured in one of my columns ages ago. I don’t know what made him go off the deep end.
You can criticize me all you want here. Just don’t mislead yourself into believing I care — that would be incredibly arrogant. So long as you stick with family-friendly verbiage and stay away from racial and ethnic insults, we are fine.
Michael,
Obama was part of a law firm specializing in civil rights litigation and there was also his stint as a Constitutional law professor at the (rather conservative, fwiw) University of Chicago Law School.
You can also consider (if you choose) to say that he’s been a self employed author of New York Times best sellers (something that represents a great portion of his lifetime income and personal wealth.)
Has it been the most conventional route? Not really. But define conventional. There are a handful of members of both parties up in Washington that probably have less non-government work than Obama, but I don’t see you calling any of them out.
Also, I find it odd that you make the statement “please don’t attack what he does/did for a living…” and the in the next two sentences you have a back handed attack on President Obama’s past work experience.
Ehh, just my 2 cents worth…
Michael Howdyshell, I DO stick to the issues. Willard Mitt Romney wants to be the President of the United States and just as you are free not to believe that President Obama “has ever done anything expect be a community organizer and a politician” (ignore college professor and author as you like) and to exploit that to whatever advantage you think it gives you. Do you imagine that the City of Roanoke, Carilion, NS, Chamber of Commerce, BBB, or any such groups and businesses do not employ any kind of “community organizers”? Why is that work not worthy to you?
I am free to tell the unMITTigated truth about Willard Mitt Romney. He IS a very fat cat Wall Street raider, not just a “businessman”, and he IS a Mormon who has baptized dead people. Now, if I lie, if I distort beyond reasonable measure, you call me out as you see fit. Until that time, you are using the right wing meme that I am some big bad “attack dog” of this blog while ignoring EVERY SINGLE post from the ones I respond to and that sir, is poor form, lacks any gallantry and is blatantly telling.
BTW, I am not remotely “angry at the world”, I have a good life, work with good people, have great friends and a great hangout here. I do not suffer fools or liars. Never have. “Life really is too shirt” and pants too!
Re: #68
“Like you, I would prefer more civility on this blog,”
———
Dan,
IMHO, that option lies well within your prerogative / control.
FWIIW, I belong to and financially support a pro-RKBA forum site where there are rules against name calling, ad hominem attacks, pejorative negative connotations about individuals, labels disparaging or belittling someone, etc and they are strictly enforced.
**
Before each of you joined, you agreed to abide by them [the rules], but we take them pretty seriously around here, which is one of the reasons that we remain many members’ favorite firearms forum. We run a tight and civil ship, insisting on civility. If you quickly breezed through the rules during registration, you may want to take a minute now and read them a little more thoroughly. Doing so will help make the forum more enjoyable for you and prevent any problems later.
**
and
**
General Rules:
1. Although we have a number of other forums here, we are primarily focused on concealed carry. Threads and posts should be related to the individual forum’s focus.
2. While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts or PMs. Trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are strictly prohibited. You are welcome to disagree with opinions other than your own, but flaming other members will not be allowed. If you can’t figure out how to compose a post without it being confrontational or a personal attack on someone, simply bite your lip and don’t post it.
3. Each member is allowed one account. Multiple user account registrations for one individual are not permitted. We have tools designed to detect multiple accounts and, when discovered, we reserve the right to delete, revoke or merge any or all of these accounts, without further notice.
4. As a family-friendly forum, we ask that you keep your language clean, exactly as we hope you would when addressing respected elders. Creative workarounds (the use of special characters to replace some letters) on language are not allowed. Violators of this rule will be warned once; those repeatedly breaking this rule will have their accounts permanently revoked. NOTE: Links to off site material will be held to our family-friendly standard, as well.
5. We have a number of female members on the forum and hope to attract more for their unique perspective and experiences. We do not, however, have “gender specific” forums. They are regarded as individuals that carry a concealed weapon that just happen to be female. They will not be subjected to sexual innuendo as a part of their membership. Be warned, there is zero tolerance regarding this particular rule.
6. We do not discriminate in regards to religion, race, creed, gender, sexual preference, or national origin, nor will we tolerate, on this forum, those that do. Racial, ethnic, or religious slurs appearing in posts will be removed. That being the case, we generally don’t want to know most of these things about you. We are strictly a “don’t ask, don’t tell” forum regarding sexual preferences.
SNIP
**
BTW, on that site, there is a wide diversity of strongly held opinion expressed and good debates on a range of issues and aspect of self-defense carry (including, BTW a sub-forum “Defensive Knives & Other Weapons”). These opinions are cordially debated by 56,653 members (currently). As I am posting this comment there are 316 members and 3901 guests on the site. The most users ever online an one time was 7,681.
If you want a proof that the whole RKBA community is not lock-step driven by the NRA, check out http://www.defensivecarry.com
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Arron good point and good post. OK I will admit Mr Obama has been a law professor and a author. However I don’t believe he has ever been responsible for meeting weekly payrolls or creating jobs.
Chasing hookers? Come on Sandi give me a break. If it were President Clinton I would say they were getting one for the boss.
Let’s not forget that Obama was an Illinois state senator, then a U.S. senator from Illinois.
By my count, he held twice the number of elective positions that GWB did when he threw his hat into the presidential ring.
Michael Howdyshell, have you come unglued? What are you talking about? Who brought up hookers? How is that sticking to the issue?
And you think Willard Mitt Romney has been “responsible for meeting weekly payrolls or creating jobs”? His interests may well have required workers to bring them to fruition and certainly that involves payroll, but you have got to be kidding if you believe that his goal was to create jobs.
Obama has had staff that were literally depending on him for their jobs…he still does in fact.
Again, you are comparing a corporate raider and investor to someone who builds a company for the achievement and livelihood the way most business men do. Don’t forget that in his capacity of “investor”, Romney was not shy about raiding, splitting and selling companies and putting people out of work either. His particular sword has two very sharp edges.
77. Michael, I am insulted, you don’t think professionals have to meet payrolls and create jobs? Wow, and I thought professional services was one of the growth industries in the US. Silly me. And now three years in as President he has screated more jobs than the last MBA President.
@77. I have 10 employees and have never missed a payroll, though I have lost quite a bit of hair and sleep over meeting them. That being said I don’t think being a job creator in itself makes me a good candidate for office.
I’ll vote for the President who practiced Constitutional law on this one over the corporate raider. Obama or Gordon Gecko? No contest. Obama by 10 points in November.
Senior Nuttyshell remember. I guess you don’t watch fox news.
Since I penned it.,,and its not in the least
that original..at least in my mind,
its not Senior..it was penned as “Señor” .
Theres Señor Wences..Señor Frogs, Senior Dunces
and plain old dogs,
The cracked nut allusion stands or falls of its own weight.
MIchael, please tell us how President Obama is to blame for horny Secret Service men and a few soliders seeing Columbian hookers? I have a friend who is posting idiotic crap about it on Facebook.
The stuff that conservatives try to hold him responsible for gets more ridiculous every day. It also gets uglier.
Debbie, they’re just getting more desperate as the days wear on and Romney shows no signs of being able to beat Obama next fall.
They disgust me.
#76 Running a forum with those types of rules requires moderators, either paid or volunteer, Dave H., especially at a high-volume place. Moderating this place isn’t Dan’s full-time job although he already spends a lot more time at it than any other blogger at the RT. And of course whether or not to allow some posts is often a subjective call that will vary by moderator.
#58 Gosh, colorado max, not sure how you could have missed the numerous comments by Dan this week.
My apologies Joe. Debbie, leadership 101 the person in charge is responsible for the actions of his subordinates. Although I’m sure before this is over it will be President Bush’s fault.
Michael,
Do you believe President Obama should resign because some Secret Service agents who were out of the country cavorted with prostitutes?
Do you believe President Bush should have resigned back when mining companies were using sex, drugs and cash gifts to bribe officials in the Department of the Interior?
Obamas not resigning. Bush oversaw the deadliest attack on American soil in nearly a century (giving him a break and calling Hawaii in 1941 American soil) and not ONE of his second rate appointees or “intelligence” or military upper ranks resign. Or get canned.
The desperation and racism are, as always, stunning. Or not so much.
With all due respect, Michael, your assertion is ASININE! BTW is the “Bush’s fault” the Fox news talking point? My friend used the same line on Facebook.
I will tell you the same thing I told him. The President is neither their nanny, nor their daddy. He is not responsible for what grown men do. He wasn’t even in the country when it happened. Do you have GPS trackers or web cams on the persons or in the homes of your employees? Do you have spies watching them? Do you know every action they take when you are not around?
You’re right, their desperation is showing and it is disgusting.
My comment at 11:13 was in ressponse to Kristen’s comments.
#77 Michael Howdyshell – posted, “However I don’t believe he has ever been responsible for meeting weekly payrolls or creating jobs.”
Please get your facts straight.
The President has saved or created jobs through the stimulus package of 2009:
“Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Analytics and an advisor to John McCain’s presidential campaign, and Alan Blinder, a former Federal Reserve vice chairman and advisor to President Clinton, estimates that the stimulus act created about 2.7 million jobs.” http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/25/technology/apple_steve_jobs/index.htm
Romney claims to have created, “100,000 jobs”, however that was proven false:
“Romney’s claim to have created 100,000 jobs was based on a selection of only three businesses that Bain was involved with, and that it “does not include job losses from other companies with which Bain Capital was involved — and are based on current employment figures, not the period when Romney worked at Bain.” http://www.mediaite.com/online/washington-post-fact-checker-upgrades-mitt-romney-jobs-claim-to-3-pinocchios/
With all the bankrupting and raiding of corporations purchased by Bain [Romney's company] ihe can not call himself a “jobs creator”, more like a jobs terminator….
Who said anyting about resigning. November is a long time off. Nothing is certain. We shall see what happens.
Michael Howdyshell
You can continue to deny the numbers but they are real:
Sept 2008– net job loss 410000
Oct. 2008- net job loss 419000
Nov. 2008- net job loss584000
Dec. 2008- net job loss 524000
Jan- Mar. 2009 net job loss 753000 per month.
All of these losses were befor the Obama administration had any basic opportunity to begin puttin in place policies to deal with the trainwreck.
Beginning in April the job losses began to slow. The corner was turned in Jan. 2010. Since that date over 3.3 million jobs have been added While job growth is not on pace to recover 450000 jobs per month, it is on pace for there to be a net gain of jobs for Barack Obama’s four years. In george Bush’e 8 years we lost over 4 million jobs.These are facts. And you expect us to believe that going back to the trickle down program that we had under George Bush with less regulation which is what Romney espouses will fix the problem. That is plain silly.
Dave
Ask almost anyone in business there has been little or no recovery. There is no housing market and very little private commercial construction. The only plan I ever here from Mr. Obama is raise taxes on the higher income folks. Pray tell how is that a plan to grow business. Mr
Romney has a pro business growth plan that will work.
You are nutty if you think I would ever waste time in my life watching FOX News!
It is extremely important for Americans to give Obama the White House and the Dems a majority in the House and Senate or this nation is in for a very very serious fall.
The Bush tax cuts are set to expire in December 2012
The already agreed to cuts of 1.2 trillion dollars (the sequester) will kick in
The debt ceiling argument will be back on the hot seat
The Ryan budget is DOA for any sensible person. He offers only pain for us and gain for the wealthy and the inequity that is already our bane cannot be enlarged! The TP/GOP has lost their mind and want America to join them in the nuthouse!
You might think that throwing workers and the poor under the bus is a good idea but you are not going to like what happens next. Ask Marie Antoinette.
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”
― Hélder Câmara
Michael Howdyshell,
Your own business, or the businesses of those you know, may not have experienced any upsurge of late. (The same is true of the newspaper business, btw). But I would suggest to you that the business world and the economy in general is much broader that you or your friends.
Surely you have heard of Advanced Auto Inc. It’s a Fortune 500 company — the only one HQ’d in Roanoke. In February, they reported their profits were up 58 percent, and those were driven by an aggressive store expansion strategy. That is a sign of a recover. Surely you have also heard of Apple Computer. It’s the largest company (by total market value) in the world.
The point is, you can cry “Hey! Where’s MY recovery!?” all you want. But it’s a fact that some businesses are experiencing a recovery.
“ Mr Romney has a pro business growth plan that will work.” No Michael H, he doesn’t. You are kidding yourself.
Michael Howdyshell @99 posted “Romney has a pro business growth plan that will work.”
Not so fast Michael H…his plan is simply the Ryan plan…
Peter Suderman, an associate editor at the Libertarian magazine Reason, writes that “Romney has no real plan or interest in actually making the [budget] numbers work.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/column-the-dynamic-dodge-in-romneys-budget/2011/08/25/gIQA3Cy3fR_blog.html
[T]he Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget explained in a study of Romney’s latest tax plan. Rather than bringing the budget into balance, as he has repeatedly promised, that plan would substantially increase the national debt over the coming decade by reducing taxes on people like Romney himself—the wealthiest 1 percent.
“…we find that without offsets Gov. Romney’s plan on the whole would increase the debt by about $2.6 trillion,” according to the nonpartisan committee. ”
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/romneys_budget-balancing_for_dummies_20120229/
Mike Howdyshell at 1:28
Maybe you’dike to enlighten us on the details of Mr. Romney’s pro growth business policy and how it is different from the “oro growth” business policy that e endured for the eight years between 2000 and 2008 and the continuing effects of thoswe policies through 2009. And maybe while you are at it you would like to explain why there has been positive job growth now for the past 27 months. The Ryan budget, which Romney endorses, basically doubles down on the Bush policies and takes more money out of the pockets of the elderly, the poor, and the middle class. And those are the people who need to spend if the economy is ever going to improve. Less money for those segments of the population means less demand which means less business whic means less employment. You can continue to “trickle down” on the heads of the middle class and let the top 10o% widen the gap until the cows come home and that will never improve the economy.
Sure Dan, our business is doing OK and a lot of weaker firms have been weeded out. There are of course business that are doing very well. Like I said I talk to lots of folks involved ed in lots of business and I don’t no anyone that is doing as well as in the early 2000′s. How can you explain the housing industry and folks involved in that business. The housing business effects 100′s of industries.
dave,
I’d like him to go back further than just the last eight years. The “trickle down” philosophy goes back further. I’d also like him to explain the philosophy that has people like the Koch brothers and others like them working desparately to end any regulation/restraint of what business does it this country.
Those who are backing Romney and other Republicans are really out to eliminate the progress our nation made in the 20th century in so many areas. There is much more at stake in the 2012 election than just whether Pres. Obama is re-elected or Mitt Romney wins. The average American really needs to wake up. If not our country will go in a direction that we really don’t want or need to go.
Michael, the housing & building industries were doing good in the 2000-2006 in the same way NASDAQ was flying high through most of the 1990s. Both were speculative bubbles. Both popped, like speculative bubbles always do.
#106 Michael, are you truly not aware of the unnatural bubble that was going on in the housing industry? Strange.
“Ask almost anyone in business there has been little or no recovery. There is no housing market and very little private commercial construction.”
There is some some recovery going on real estate sales, but it is because of a number of things. There are fewer agents, only about 60% as many as five years ago. And the foreclosures couldn’t be denied forever. The sickness HAD to run it’s course so that the banks could recover at least part of their money and be able to lend more. The prices came back into line with values in a jagged graph that will reach equilibrium eventually, except…….. Those 100% +, unqualified, and marginal C-paper loans that Wall Street was only to happy to buy, because the originators were happy to make, because the people were happy to borrow. An eltitement society created the demand for those loans that should never have been made. Yeah, those loans; well, they’re coming back. Consumers need to learn their lesson that just because a bank will loan you X, doesn’t mean you should borrow X. There will ALWAYS be a market for taking advantage of people who are willing to borrow too much.
Housing will back to normal if and when the free market controls it instead of the government.
“There will ALWAYS be a market for taking advantage of people who are willing to borrow too much.
Housing will back to normal if and when the free market controls it instead of the government.”
Does anyone else find these two statements contradictory?
Dan, since there will always be a market for making money off of the gullible, it IS normal and part of a free market. The only way to eliminate that market is to eliminate gullible people.
That’s lefty thinking, trying to get rid of the failures that must be a natural part of normal.
Michael Howdyshell
You are right. Nobody is doing as well as in the early 2000′s. That is because in 2001 aqnd 2003 t5he Bush White House and the Republican dominated Congress went on a budget busting rampage cutting taxes and
deregulating wall street and the banks while at the same time putting us into two wars that were unpaid for and in effect carried off the books and financed by borrowed money. They turned a projected surplus into a huge deficit, created the housing bubble by allowing walll streeters to speculate in and package together subprime mortgages and misrepresent the soundness of those investments to their clients. They looked the other way while lenders engaged in deceptive practices and used sophisticated marketing strategies and illegal collusions between lenders and apprsaisers to sell people mortgage products that carried extreme risk
while inflating housing values. And many people in my industry(real estate) were complicit in those schemes and motivated by greed placed people in untenable positions when the bubblwe finally burst. The resulting train wreck which really began at the end of 2006 resulted ina net loss of over 4 million jobs that were laid directly at the door of the Bush administration and its policies and another nearly 4 million that disappeared in the after effects of all this before some stability could be returned to the process. And now you, the Republicans, and Mitt Romney want us to buy that same package in 2012. Maybe they can fool people into doing it. But the disaster that follows will make the first one seem like a gentle storm.
John Wilburn
The greed of the lenders and the unregulated practices of the “free market” are what put us there in the first place. The average consumer
buiying a home does not have the sophistication required to wade through all the pros and cons of the products that the greedy lenders try to market to them. People are and alweays have been concerned with one major question? Can I make the payment and get what I want. They have relied upon the advice of bankers, mortgae lenders, and agents to help them make those decisions. Without regulations on the practitioners, all the free market gives us is far too many examples of practitioners who let greed get in the way of providing the beat advice to the customer for their situation. This is a broad brush and certainly not every practitioner can be painted with it. There are good, ethical, honest people out there who strive to make serfice to the customer and their interests the # 1 priority. But there are far too many who do not and lack of regulation makes it easy for them.
#111: Yes, the two statements are contradictory. They also remind us that real estate middlemen love to give lip service to how they serve as a check on such lending abuses, and will use their role to see that prices closely align with fundamental values, (in spite of their incentives being as heavily slanted not to do so as those selling the junk into the secondary market); ask them why there was so little efficacy in that process during the bubble, and you’ll hear many of them change the subject faster than a speeding bullet from a Virginia gun in the Bronx.
Dan, the “normal” free market apparently involves a lot of taking advantage of people. And the government needs to get out of the way and let that happen.
I can remember my wife and me marveling at the size mortgage lenders told us we could “afford” based on our salaries and assets. Our reaction? Uh, no, I don’t think so.
Apparently there were quite a few whop weren’t as smart, as well as folks who were sold a bill of goods, folks who through no fault of their own lost their jobs, and greedheads who thought they could own that McMansion at age 26, or who were convinced they could make a mint flipping or building houses because the real estate bubble would go on forever, which it never does.
I agree with everyone’s comments about lenders being a problem. The home in which I currently live was purchased with financing that was secured online. After filling out a application from an online service, I was immediately besieged by a half doze lenders who tripped all over themselves to provide me a loan. I could have walked away with tens of thousands of dollars from the deal, because the lenders, who had never seen my property, knew it was going to worth about 40 percent more than what I felt comfortable about. I didn’t take that bait and stayed well within my means. Go figure. Later, when interests rates got lower than whale poop, I refinanced with a local bank for an even better deal.
dave,
So you think the government should outlaw transfat, smoking, loud music and anyhting else not in our best interests as determined by the government?
Warren,
I know what you’re after, and it’s unnecessary. My business is clean and ethical. The masses can’t speak for me and you can’t either.
Kristen:
116.”Dan, the “normal” free market apparently involves a lot of taking advantage of people. And the government needs to get out of the way and let that happen.”
This is the cold hard way of saying it, yes. In nature a lot of cute fishies get eaten by alligators too. We don’t get in the way of that and should not.
Allowing the government to decide all facets of what is best for us, is not the solution. Trying to legislatively slim down every extreme of rich and poor into a one-size-fits-all standard of living is a cookie-cutter world I don’t want to live in. No motivations, no aspirations, nothing to drive you, and no reason to need it to. I want none of that.
“This is the cold hard way of saying it, yes. In nature a lot of cute fishies get eaten by alligators too. We don’t get in the way of that and should not.”
So, John Wilburn, are you saying there’s a sucker born every minute and if you can screw them over go for it, with no repercussions to the one doing the screwing?
Anyone in real estate who pretends that this was all on the “eltitement society”, is trying to scape-goat someone else to keep from accepting the clear and imminent truth of their industries own collusion and outright fraud. Borrowers do not set the value of a home. Appraisers and agents do. The industry as a whole was doing everything in its power to rip people off as fast and furiously as they could, That is why there was a glut of real estate agents, mortgage sharks in every strip mall, appraisers agreeing on the worth of the collateral and a willing conduit to Wall Street. That case is settled.
The real estate, banking, finance and insurance industries all showed us what they would do with less oversight, less regulation and less government intervention. Never again.
Yes JohnWilburn…perhaps the answer is to just let people who’ve been ripped off go shoot their mortgage officer in the head. Voila! Word goes out to the other mortgage officers that screwing people is a bad idea, and it stops. The free market at work!
You’ve implied that you’re relatively young, and I try to keep that in mind when I read your posts.
John W, do you believe the gov’t should regulate anything at all? If so, what? Just curious.
Debbie,
Absolutely not. I and everyone else here has the opportunity to take advantage of people everyday, but we don’t. Just by virtue of carrying a gun, I have the opportunity to murder but I don’t, just as you guys drive cars by playgrounds and could, with the flip of the wrist, swerve in and kill children, but you don’t. There a lot of opportunity to steal all manner of things everyday for all of us, but we don’t. Just like with sex, drugs, guns, religion or anything else, we must self-govern and not utilize everything which is legal if it is immoral or unethical.
I make it a point and it is very important to me to be very fair and give more than my share when possible or if there is any doubt. Human nature provides a sucker born every minute just like someone that will take advantage of that sucker is born every minute. I’m neither, but realize that no amount of government regulation or intervention will ever stop it. It will only whittle away irreplaceable liberty.
“Borrowers do not set the value of a home. Appraisers and agents do.”
Utter nonsense. Appraisers were pressured to arrive at those values, but within what the market trend was telling them. They weighted the values of properties based upon market demand using a copy of the purchase contract in one hand where multiple parties are saying that very property is worth one amount. In the other hand, the comps were coming up behind that soon-to-be sale jsutifying its place in the trend. The problem was that the banks would choose the appraisers and if a certain appraiser couldn’t get the prescribed value a time, or two, or three, that apprasier would get dropped from the bank’s roster.
Over-valuing properties did hurt buyers once the market fell, but it has come back to hurt the bank too and, as a result, current appraisals are far more conservative as banks need to know what a property is really worth since they may well be stuck with it.
Agents have NOTHING to do with valuing a home. They are hired to try to cause a property to sell for as much as possible for a seller and help purchase it for as little as possible for a buyer (hence, vet your buyer’s agent well). There are various agency disclosures that are mandatory for seller’s and buyer’s agents to make to the purchasers of property and it is their responsibility to read them and the agents’ responsibility to ensure they sign them or the deal doesn’t go forward. It’s only the most expensive purchase most of them ever make and hardly asking too much.
123.”Yes JohnWilburn…perhaps the answer is to just let people who’ve been ripped off go shoot their mortgage officer in the head…..You’ve implied that you’re relatively young, and I try to keep that in mind when I read your posts.”
When you run out of logic, you imply that I think it’s okay to murder a mortgage broker. Oh, that is fully of youthful folly.
THE GOAL OF REGULATION IS TO PUT THE WORST IN HUMAN NATURE AT A DISADVANTAGE.
124.”John W, do you believe the gov’t should regulate anything at all? If so, what? Just curious.”
Sure, the federal government should regulate what the states explicitly tell it to. That is it’s purpose. I would think national defense, interstate highways, printing of money, enforcement of action against states that abuse the US Constitution, are things the federal government should do. I like the FDA, for one, but don’t want it getting too much like the EPA.
For me, I like the federal government honoring state sovereginty much better. That has been greatly eroded over the years and I think we need to get back to it.
127.”THE GOAL OF REGULATION IS TO PUT THE WORST IN HUMAN NATURE AT A DISADVANTAGE.”
The goal of most men is to marry a rich supermodel, but we all know how that works out.
#129-”THE GOAL OF REGULATION IS TO PUT THE WORST IN HUMAN NATURE AT A DISADVANTAGE.”
I have absolutely no problem with that.
I feel certain that if we did not have the EPA, there would be endless streams of toxic waste in this country.
Debbie:
“”THE GOAL OF REGULATION IS TO PUT THE WORST IN HUMAN NATURE AT A DISADVANTAGE.”
I have absolutely no problem with that.”
As for the good intentions behind it, neither do I. The problem is that a lot of regulation winds up serving special interests. Seeking to legislatively put the “worst of human nature at a disadvantage” sounds very much like crafting a solution that is looking for a problem. One could follow that idea down the path to a rubber room that protects us from everything.
As the RWers say, Debbie, how do you know those chemicals are not good for you? Do you not realize that SAT scores in this country began declining the same year they banned lead paint?
I heard that one from my father in law.
Debbie, same with the FDA (not that they aren’t underfunded and staffed), same with lots of regulatory bodies.
131.”I feel certain that if we did not have the EPA, there would be endless streams of toxic waste in this country.”
TYou might be right. I know people who pollute severly, not out of malice, but out of ignorance. The original intent of the EPA is good. Polluting MY well though toxic sludge on your yard IS my business. Totally unregulated pollution is a problem that interferes with others’ lives, so I’m for having limits there on things that go into EVERYONE’S air and EVERYONE’S water. I think that needs to be done on a totally objective solution for problem basis.
John Wilburn, I appreciate you announcing your post would be “Utter nonsense” and it was.
Who “pressured” the appraisers? Who manipulated and massaged the “market trend”? No, buyers were not the ones telling anyone what their properties were worth. You want to excuse the Appraisers and Real Estate agents, many of whom steered buyers to certain mortgage sharks and appraisers. Sorry, no sale. The Scarlet A fits!
If the Real Estate agents and Appraisers had held some integrity and refused to play ball, none of this could have happened. It would have been over before it started. Instead they jumped on the party boat and rode it into the ground and you are fooling no one with your revisionist history…once again.
“Do you not realize that SAT scores in this country began declining the same year they banned lead paint?
I heard that one from my father in law.”
Are you serious? Lead-based paint has been massively overblown, but knowing people might think things like that really is scary! Far scarier than knowing that a 1960-1977 house has a 25% chance of lead-based paint somewhere under the paint of the last 35 years.
Here is what integrity looks like: Too bad he was virtually a lone ranger.
“What’s clear is that Blomquist set himself apart from tens of thousands of real estate agents nationwide who rode the mania and kept selling properties for spiraling prices until they crashed.
“When fraud becomes the competition, anybody who has any ethics is driven out of business,” he said. “As a fiduciary, I felt I couldn’t do my job. Your role is to be aware of market conditions. . . . You’re supposed to put clients’ interests ahead of your own.”
“I’m by no means a saint, but I’m not going to be the cause of somebody losing their life savings or becoming enslaved in a debt for a grossly overpriced house just to make a living,” he said.”
Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/10/10/101751/real-estate-agents-warnings-of.html#storylink=cpy
#133 That’s funny, Dan!
“Who “pressured” the appraisers?”
The banks. In fact I know of a couple of cases where the mortgage broker told the appraiser if he/she could not get a value of X, don’t bother, I’ll send someone else out. Appraisers who didn’t hit their marks and justify the contract prices, would lose their place on banks’ lists.
“Who manipulated and massaged the “market trend”?”
Consumers should have said “No, I cannot afford this. Why should I depend on you to tell me what I can afford?”
“No, buyers were not the ones telling anyone what their properties were worth.”
Oh, yes they were. Every bid at an auction is a buyer telling the auctioneer what the item up for bid is worth to them. Every purchase contract is the buyer stating, backing, and sign for what the property is worth to them. The fact that a lot of people cannot handle understanding finance and the correlation of monthly payments, adjustable-rate mortgages, and purchase price does not mean the government needs to step in and limit everybody’s options.
“If the Real Estate agents and Appraisers had held some integrity and refused to play ball, none of this could have happened.”
Many of them did. However, the real estate agent’s job IS NOT to tell people how to live, how to spend, or what to buy. Neither is the government’s. The agent’s job is to educate the buyer and let them make their own decision. There is nothing most buyers could be told that would deter them from buying that shiny new house whose payment was achievable even if the total cost was not truly workable.
“Instead they jumped on the party boat and rode it into the ground….”
The rode the peak and now they’re riding the valley.
“….and you are fooling no one with your revisionist history…once again.”
One of us was on the front lines for that whole ordeal, and it wasn’t you. Go revise something else.
John Wilburn,
During the real estate bubble, there were areas in which the market values were increasing at astounding rates. In 2006, my father in Annapolis bragged to me how his neighbor’s smaller house (in this neighborhood where the homes are just like those in Penn Forest) had just sold for $715,000.
I said, “Dad, sell your house! You only paid $35k for it!” But he didn’t and after his death, my mom sold it (in 2009) for $500k.
The point is, you cannot necessarily expect consumers to be keeping up with every move in the market. There are professionals whose job it is to do that. Those consumers, in a bubble market, didn’t necessarily know their homes were not worth what the banks were willing to lend on it. Traditionally banks have been quite conservative about home lending.
What happened what, Wall Street created a system in which the banks could off-load all or most of the risk. Homeowners didn’t necessarily realize that. So for you to blame them retroactively for being greedy, when it was actually the banks pressuring appraisers to inflate values, is unfair.
“The point is, you cannot necessarily expect consumers to be keeping up with every move in the market. There are professionals whose job it is to do that.”
I agree and that is why there is a mountain of disclosures that go with every offer. The other side of that is that it is reckless to speculate on climbing values. Like I said, the buyers should be eduacted or if nothing else, READ WHAT THEY SIGN.
“So for you to blame them retroactively for being greedy, when it was actually the banks pressuring appraisers to inflate values, is unfair.”
The banks only told the appraisers to justify the values (sometimes speculatively, I’ll admit) that the consumers were willing to pay. The consumers saw the prices going up and up and gambled. Like all gambling, there are winners and losers. I don’t like seeing people lose, but it had to happen to some.
The ultimate control of this situation WAS in the consumers’ hands. Yes, there were a lot of investors buying sketchy loans just as many as the lenders could bundle together and were marketed to the masses seeing there were a lot of people who would buy if given the chance. I took advangtage of that kind of loan once because I thought it through. So should everyone else. No one held a gun to anyone’s head and made them buy a house they couldn’t afford. People living in a $125,000 ranch got tired of watching their friends move into new $250,000 houses. They were not forced to do that. There will always be money loaned at interest rates and with loan-to-value ratios in proportion to the risk. That is a free market thing. When speculative values were on the rise because there was an artificially large buyer pool, money got cheap, and the boat had more people boarding than would float.
I bought a property before things peaked out on a risky deal and it worked out. I bought another during the height of the volatility, but in a more conservative fashion with a solid exit plan (good thing, I needed it), and passed on another resisting the temptation to buy what many were willing to lend me. Responsibility cannot be legislated.
BS John Wilburn, pure BS. Virtually NO ONE buys a house without the “professional help” of a Realtor, appraiser and home inspector as well as a mortgage shark or bank. I grant you there was plenty of quid pro quo and pay to play, but we ALL know that millions of real estate agents played.
http://www.dre.ca.gov/pdf_docs/rebfall06.pdf
“As real estate licensees, we should make every effort to help
real estate appraisers remain in compliance with their governing
laws“
“Virtually NO ONE buys a house without the “professional help” of a Realtor, appraiser and home inspector as well as a mortgage shark or bank.”
You are totally missing the point. There were some dishonest professionals and that was regrettable, but that is no excuse for the overall irresponsible choices in buying by many. A professional tattoo artist can give someone a ridiculous tattoo if the customer wants one, and many good artists did just that. A lot of professional, ethical real estate agents sold buyers bad investments because the buyer wanted it. No one should want a nanny for an agent. You really do not know how many people made bad buys regardless of any professional advice to the contrary. Buyers would beg banks to fudge on their debt-to-income ratios and beg the mortgage brokers to lobby their ten point short credit scores with the underwriters. Responsibile, conservative buying be damned, they wanted the house!
The buyer virtually never meets the appraiser or cares what they come up with so long as the bank is happy making the loan. The lender has to disclose the total cost of the financing and the true interest rates. The banks didn’t have to push these people because five years ago, people would find THE house and then go figure out a loan. That was backwards of how it should have been and backwards of how it is now. During that time, the deal wasn’t won or lost at the lenders’ desks as it often is today.
Why oh why are you dragging home inspectors into this now?! Home inspectors get their $250-$450 regardless of anyhting to do with the deal. There is actually more incentive for them to magnify problems to not only prove their value to the client, but possibly score a second inspection if the first inspection makes the first deal fall through. I guess it’s your idea of blaming ANYONE and EVERYONE but irresponsible buyers and a culture of entitlement.
By the way that link to whatever that was in California was a stretch. Agents are not the appraisers’ keepers. Agents should work up CMAs independent of the appraisers and there are multiple contingencies to protect the buyer in the event of a discepancy anyway.
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY IS THE KEY TO A STABLE MARKET.
Oh for the love of Heaven, the “Caveat emptor” role model is disgusting. There was more than enough greed to go around, but everyone knows that the “American Dream” of home ownership had been a soft spot for families in this nation since homestead days. People are supposed to be able to rely on the advice and counsel of the industry experts and there is no way you can twist that to be “buyer beware”! Still BS in neon.
I dragged the California newsletter warning to Realtors (from 2006) into the argument because that is where this fire started and with whom it started. Buyers did not know to start the bubble. They never do.
Want me to keep going:
http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/special-sections/crisp-cole/x1515766520/Crisp-Cole-A-timeline-of-events
“1991: Carl Cole becomes a licensed real estate salesman in California.
2009: In January, former lender Fremont Investment & Loan — now Signature Group Holdings — files a massive lawsuit against Crisp, Cole & Associates and a string of appraisers, accountants, a homebuilder and others alleging massive fraud. A second suit from Fremont with additional allegations and defendants is filed in August.”
It is a long sordid story.
It seems to me that JW is blaming the victim.
I just love these people who always claim it’s always the victim’s fault.
Bernie Madoff didn’t do anything wrong. It’s the fault of the victims who invested with him. They should have known better. If you’re run down by a speeding car that has run a red light, it’s your own fault. You didn’t have to step into that street. And, John Wilburn, if you are killed in a classroom by a maniac armed with two guns, is that your own fault, too — because you weren’t packing a weapon in violation of a university’s rules?
146.”It seems to me that JW is blaming the victim.”
People should be able to make their own choices and take calculated risks. Sandi, for someone who has said many times that you explicitly trust NO ONE, why is this a problem? I am not and have never advocated for professional dishonesty. Quite the opposite! I believe in honesty and proactive disclosure and have a long track record of such.
The theme I see amongst you guys is the idea that everyone who fails is a victim and the government always needs to step in create rules that make it impossible to fail. This twarting of nature does not work in perpetuity.
Home ownership is not a right or entitlement. There are renters for a reason. I admire folks who work hard, rent when they must, but make a solid plan to buy something within their realistic budget and means. That is how it should work. A lot of these foreclosed homes had new cars in the driveways and a hot tub on the deck. The glow of the 55″ TV could be seen from the windows down the street. The people who bought irresponsibly on the house usually didn’t stop there.
The last two years, with banks’ money tied up in foreclosed homes, there was less money to lend. The folks with good credit, income, and debt ratio were having difficulty borrowing. Those were real victims.
I swear these “black eyed suzies” are spreading more like dandelions and just as irritating.
“Bernie Madoff didn’t do anything wrong. It’s the fault of the victims who invested with him. They should have known better.”
This is most outrageous, red herring comparison you have made since you’re comparison of university carry to WMD.
Madoff showed false deposits. He was purpotrating very clear fraud.
The “victims” you are talking about signed everything that was properly disclosed. Unfortunately, and to be honest, a lot of folks are too lazy or think they’re too busy read what they sign. A lot of agents encourage them to read everything, but they can’t make them. There’s no law that can fix this. The very top of the Virginia Association of Realtors purchase contract says “This is a legally binding contract. If you do not understand any part of it, please seek competent advice before signing.”
Go put on you proton packs and wage some more war on drugs to save those pot smokers from themselves. After all, they are victims of the availability of drugs and those dealers don’t tell them of all the health issues. Go put the hotdog stands out of business for tellign folks the hotdogs are delicious and not disclosing the nitrates, sodium, and fat content. Go stop every convenience store clerk from telling a customer that the carton of cigarettes is a better deal than the single pack since that’s more nicotene. That’s a falshood, isn’t it?
Montgomery County’s seal says “Freedom increases Responsibility.” This is true. I wish it could be comprehended to our east.
JW, you ought to know that there were people who deliberately did not invest with Madoff, because they didn’t understand his BS explanations about he “earned” his clients’ returns. They didn’t trust him. They thought it was too good to be true. At least one of them sent a 20-page report to the SEC, outlining his concerns and offering proof that those returns were impossible.
And now, here you are, talking the side of the people who did invest with him — and against the folks who got mortgages from Countrywide, Bank of America, Washington Mutual and so on, after those banks pressured appraisers to tell the homeowners the values were higher than they might have been. You and I both know the paperwork on those loans didn’t disclose that the values were inflated. In that sense, they were as phony as the monthly statements Madoff cooked up.
You’re the one with the outrageous argument.
“You’re the one with the outrageous argument.”
Okay appraiser Dan, why were the values inflated? How should REAL values have been determined when there were bidding wars from the artificially large buyer pool? How would you have proposed to protect the buyers from themselves? Should it have been illegal for a seller to sell for x amound more than he or she paid for the property? Is home ownership a right? Wasn’t there a time when the banks didn’t care about poor people and wouldn’t loan to people who really needed it?
I’ve given my less-than-pretty solution, what is yours? Go ahead and spoil the ending, does everybody own a home at the end?
There is no pleasing the lefties without a cradle to grave cable car that follows the track, never ascending or descending out of bounds.
JW, YOU said the values were inflated because the banks told the appraisers to inflate them. And this WAS NOT disclosed in the docs the borrowers signed.
This actually makes somewhat sense, because the banks were off-loading the risk via securitization of mortgages. What aided that was, the bonds were inappropriately rated AAA because the bond houses didn’t understand how to properly evaluate the risk. They thought the risks had been covered with swaps.
BUT, as the bubble was growing, this was not understood by the public and it was NOT disclosed in the documents the borrowers signed. It was not even understood by people in the financial markets who were supposed to be pros (such as the crew at the now defunct Shenandoah Life).
153.”JW, YOU said the values were inflated because the banks told the appraisers to inflate them. And this WAS NOT disclosed in the docs the borrowers signed.”
NO. The buyers set the price number competing in the market where there were too many buyers. The banks didn’t leave the sweeping curve to chance when they gave the appraisers orders. How do you disclose to them that whatever number it is that they, the sellers, and everyone else who offered very close to them gave is definitely NOT the value of the house? That’s exactly the value of the house UNLESS we admit that all those people competing had no business buying a home or at least that expensive a home. There’s NO pretty answer to this
“This actually makes somewhat sense, because the banks were off-loading the risk via securitization of mortgages.”
Yep. I think it was California who invested heavily in those to fund their teachers’ pensions. That went over like a lead balloon. SHould have kept California from burning itself too.
John Wilburn, what is it with your desperate need to make things up? Suzie syndrome?
No one has said that you have “advocated for professional dishonesty”
No one has said “that everyone who fails is a victim and the government always needs to step in create rules that make it impossible to fail”.
No one has said that owning a home was a “right or entitlement”.
If you are going to debate with lies, irrational and unfounded insults, just pack it in and leave before your ruin yourself.
You want to blame the kids for taking the candy from the nice friendly molester and that is just wrong. Your profession was complicit and there is no way around that truth. That you were not is to your credit but stop lying about the issue.
“You want to blame the kids for taking the candy from the nice friendly molester and that is just wrong.”
You see folks, Sandi sees the grown people who were buying houses as “kids” and the whole mortage industry whose vast majority of brokers are honest as “molesters”. She picks out the Simon Lagree-type dishonest mortgage brokers who were abusive and claims they represent the whole industry just like she thinks all gun owners are represented by Cho.
I have years of experience in the industry working with hundereds of clients and know the processes we’re debating inside-out. She knows wht she reads from the internet. You decide.
Yes, you sell real estate and I don’t. You decide.