Cut the 10 Commandments down to 6?
A truck trailer with a Ten Commandments message parked in a private field on the edge of the Town of Pearisburg in Giles County. | By Matt Gentry | The Roanoke Times
One of the stranger legal rulings I’ve ever seen come out of federal court came down today, when U.S. District Judge Michael Urbanski ordered the two sides in the the Giles County Schools 10 Commandments case into mediation.
The judge seemed to be bending over backwards and protecting the Giles County School Board from an enormous loser-pays bill that would be due if the school board lost the case, which they probably would.
More here from my colleague Laurence Hammack.
Recall, the board through its attorneys (Liberty Counsel) already has unsuccessfully tried to “out” the anonymous student at Narrows High School protesting the posting of the commandments on a school wall with other secular documents such as the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence. He is being represented by the ACLU.
So what do you think? Urbanski’s action is almost Solomonic, wouldn’t you say? Except rather than split the baby down the middle, he sounds willing to lean to the defendants 60-40.
Do you think they’ll go for that? I can’t imaging they would.
May 7, 2012 - 9:38 PM
I wouldn’t go for the compromise, but for different reasons than the religious zealots. Butchering a work for the sake of political correctness takes value away from both sides and there are no winners. That baby shouldn’t be split. Whats next? Pick the 6 less controversial Amendments of the Bill of Rights to post? Oh wait, that’s kind of what they’re doing….. and it’s not working. The first is constantly restricted, the second is always under fire (no pun intended), the fourth was erased via the Patriot Act, and the tenth is a thorn to the big federal government crowd.
Leave the commandments up and lets have some no BS discussion about them and questioning of them and anything else they want to post on that wall.
Mike Urbanski is a smart guy. But this is nothing but judicial pandering
and failure to display the courage to make a ruling that he knows is proper and correct under the Constitution. The Falwell evangelicals who are funding this suit will never go for it and ultimately Urbanski will have to rule against them. Then they will waste a lot more money and a lot more time appealing the decision all the way to the Supreme Court where they will lose again..
I’d say all or none, but would prefer all.
I was going to use the Bill of Rights analogy, but it seems that John Wilburn beat me to it.
John — I would have gotten it first if the mobile site didn’t stop working when they implemented this password thing.
@2 I agree entirely with you Dave. This was a poor attempt to avoid standing fully behind the law of this land. Pathetic.
Giles will rightly oppose this, but I love that it puts the anti-religion nuts on the hot seat. They either have to support six of the commandments which are religious in origin OR they oppose a set of maxims for good and decent behavior.
We’ve been over this, citizens already raised 6 figures so no taxpayer money will be used. Liberty Counsel knows this..the fight will continue
Ok, I cut and pasted the password and it ate my post and gave me an error message. That plus the ipad incompatability is depressing.
I look forward to seeing the Liberty folks sit down with the ACLU and have explained to them exactly which commandments would be acceptable and which are not. It would be far more humiliating than an old fashioned courtroom smackdown.
Urbanski is trying, in some mewly mouthed fashion, to let Giles know that they’re not only going to lose, but they’re going to end up stroking a big check to the ACLU. If they’re smart, they’ll take the 10cs down, declare victory, and go home. Not a great day for justice…Urbanski’s cred is hardly burnished by this nonsense.
I’ve been a huge Giles County supporter since this all started. If they back down now, I’d be terribly disappointed.
6.”We’ve been over this, citizens already raised 6 figures so no taxpayer money will be used. Liberty Counsel knows this..the fight will continue”
You obviously have no idea how quickly a six figure legal bill can be racked up.
Jack, no worries, between my aging 6 1/2 year old computer, lousy internet service, and other things popping up, you’ve beaten me to the punch on many thoughs. I’m just glad you understand that this isn’t a competition. To some bloggers, this is their competitive sport.
As said above, the judge is obviously attempting to save Giles county from their folly. The ACLU has a slam dunk case and it seems everyone knows it except the Giles County School Board. Basically the judge told Giles County to compromise or lose anyway and cut the ACLU a check. It will be interesting to see what the community does come election time. One would hope they would vote in a new board as getting the school district into this situation is malfeasance and dereliction of fiduciary duty in my opinion.
Pistol Pete, we’ve been over this as you mentioned. Can you please provide a link to this mysterious 6 figure fundraising?
I agree with Kristen on this.
The judge has set a not-so-subtle trap for Giles, If they wont’ remove the explicitly religious commandments, they expose the religious nature of their action, which means the plaintiffs win and the school board pays.
I cannot imagine the school board agreeing to with Urbanski’s suggestion. From their perspective, how could man righteously edit God?
I’d think taking them all down would be preferable to taking 4 down.
Jack, it’s not even a close call. If Giles chooses to pursue this they are going to lose at every level. I suspect the Liberty attorneys know this and are just looking for a chance to grandstand.
I feel for the people of Giles that those in whom they’ve entrusted their childrens’ education are so woefully ignorant of historical precedent. Urbanski’s given them no choice here…the maintain far more credibility taking the 10cs down than allowing them to be picked apart and edited by ACLU attorneys, which sounds like the most mortifying defeat ever.
PP, expect the ACLU to charge Giles top dollar.
@8 – Jack, are you just going to pick and choose which part of the constitution and bill of rights you are going to stand firm about? Either support the laws of the land, or just don’t. But you undermine your stance on issues you deeply care about if you are willing to flagrantly disregard others that are equally part of the backbone of this country.
@11 And while Kristen may be right about what the judge is doing, I don’t believe it is the judiciaries job to “set traps” or do anything other than enforce the damn law even when the law is being tested in uncomfortable situations…in fact, especially then.
The judge has set a not-so-subtle trap for Giles
The trap is for the ACLU. Giles should let them respond first.
If the school were to cut it down to Six Commandments, do you think they would give credit to the author when it is posted? Or do you think they would ignore their own policy on plagiarism?
#5 “…OR they oppose a set of maxims for good and decent behavior.”
Of course the ACLU isn’t “opposing” them at all. They’re opposing a government entity forcing religion on people. Too complicated for suzie to understand, though.
SuzieQ, I’m sure the attorneys from the ACLU would be more than happy to sit down with the folks from Liberty and edit the 10cs into a form that’s appropriate for the wall of a public school building. Who knows…Giles might get to keep 5 or 6!
#7 Yep, Kristen, the password thing is starting to reject passwords again. At least it will usually take it on a second try for me this time, but it’s aggravating.
It wouldn’t be right of me not to include some of the “historical precedent” of which Kristen refers. I think it could go either way. I found a lot of cases, but only went through a few of them.
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Texas resident brought § 1983 action against state and state officials, seeking declaration that display of monument inscribed with the Ten Commandments on grounds of Texas State Capitol violated First Amendment’s Establishment Clause and injunction requiring its removal. Following bench trial, the United States District Court for the Western District of Texas, Harry Lee Hudspeth, J., entered judgment for state. Resident appealed. The United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, Patrick E. Higginbotham, J., 351 F.3d 173, affirmed. Certiorari was granted.
Holdings: The Supreme Court, Chief Justice Rehnquist, held that:
1 Lemon v. Kurtzman test was not useful in dealing with erection by Texas of passive monument on its Capitol grounds, and court’s analysis instead would be driven both by nature of monument and by nation’s history,
2 display was typical of unbroken history, dating back to 1789, of official acknowledgements by all three branches of government of religion’s role in American life;
3 while Ten Commandments were undoubtedly religious, they also had undeniable historical meaning; and4 Establishment Clause was not violated by monument’s display. Affirmed.
Van Orden v. Perry, 545 U.S. 677, 125 S. Ct. 2854, 162 L. Ed. 2d 607 (2005)
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Action was brought challenging city’s inclusion of a nativity scene in its Christmas display. The United States District Court for the District of Rhode Island, Raymond J. Pettine, Chief Judge, 525 F.Supp. 1150, upheld the challenge and permanently enjoined the city from using the nativity scene in its display. Appeal was taken. The Court of Appeals, 691 F.2d 1029, affirmed. Certiorari was granted. The Supreme Court, Chief Justice Burger, held that, notwithstanding the religious significance of the nativity scene, the city did not violate the establishment clause. Reversed.
Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668, 104 S. Ct. 1355, 79 L. Ed. 2d 604 (1984)
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Plaintiffs sought temporary and permanent injunctive relief to prevent the Commonwealth of Kentucky from enforcing a statute. On appeal from an order adjudging the statute to be constitutional, the Kentucky Court of Appeals recommended transfer, and the Kentucky Supreme Court, 599 S.W.2d 157, affirmed. On petition for writ of certiorari, the Supreme Court held that: (1) Kentucky statute requiring posting of copy of Ten Commandments on walls of each public school classroom in state had preeminent purpose which was plainly religious in nature, and statute was thus violative of establishment clause; (2) an “avowed” secular purpose was not sufficient to avoid conflict with First Amendment, and conflict was not avoided by provision, in statute, that there be included, in small print at bottom of each display, the notation: “The secular application of the Ten Commandments is clearly seen in its adoption as the fundamental legal code of Western Civilization and the Common Law of the United States”; and (3) such conflict was not avoided by provision that copies be financed by voluntary private contributions or by fact that Bible verses involved were merely posted on wall rather than read aloud.Certiorari granted and judgment reversed.
Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 101 S. Ct. 192, 66 L. Ed. 2d 199 (1980)
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Taxpayer, a state legislator, brought action challenging constitutionality of practice of Nebraska legislature of opening each session with a prayer by a chaplain paid with public funds. The United States District Court for the District of Nebraska, Warren K. Urbom, Chief Judge, 504 F.Supp. 585 enjoined public payment. The Court of Appeals, 675 F.2d 228, enjoined the whole chaplaincy practice. Certiorari was granted. The Supreme Court, Chief Justice Burger, held that challenged practice did not violate the establishment clause, notwithstanding that clergyman of only one denomination had been selected for 16 years or that prayers were in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 103 S. Ct. 3330, 77 L. Ed. 2d 1019 (1983)
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Attorneys brought § 1983 action against county board, alleging that board’s authorizing inscription of “In God We Trust” on facade of county government center constituted violation of Establishment Clause. The United States District Court for the Middle District of North Carolina, 321 F.Supp.2d 688, William L. Osteen, J., granted board’s motion to dismiss, and attorneys appealed.
The Court of Appeals, King, Circuit Judge, held that:
1 board’s decision had legitimate secular purpose;
2 decision did not have principal or primary effect of advancing or endorsing religion; and
3 decision did not constitute excessive entanglement between government and religion.Affirmed.
Lambeth v. Bd. Of Commissioners Of Davidson County, NC, 407 F.3d 266 (4th Cir. 2005)
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Action was brought challenging practice of state court judge of beginning sessions with a prayer. The United States District Court for the Western District of North Carolina, James B. McMillan, Senior District Judge, 751 F.Supp. 552, ruled that the practice violated the establishment clause, and state court judge appealed. The Court of Appeals, Herbert F. Murray, Senior District Judge, sitting by designation, held that judge’s practice at beginning sessions with a prayer violated the establishment clause.Affirmed.
N. Carolina Civil Liberties Union Legal Found. v. Constangy, 947 F.2d 1145 (4th Cir. 1991)
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Non-attorney parent of schoolchildren brought action against school board and superintendent, alleging that school’s compliance with statutes that provide for daily, voluntary recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in Virginia’s public schools violated the Establishment Clause. The United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, 251 F.Supp.2d 1262, James C. Cacheris, Senior Judge, granted defendants’ motion to dismiss, and appeal was taken.
The Court of Appeals, Williams, Circuit Judge, held that:
1 non-attorney parent of minor children was not authorized to litigate pro se the claim of his minor children, and
2 Virginia’s Recitation Statute did not violate the establishment clause.Affirmed.
Myers v. Loudoun County Pub. Sch., 418 F.3d 395 (4th Cir. 2005)
“Yep, Kristen, the password thing is starting to reject passwords again. At least it will usually take it on a second try for me this time, but it’s aggravating.”
Because it is a crappy solution. The password changes each time a comment is submitted. If someone else submitted a comment somewhere on this blog while you were in the process of typing yours, the password will have changed and likely won’t still be valid when you submit your comment.
When you get the error, and click “back” in your browser, you’ll most likely notice that the password you pasted is different than the required password.
It was right when you loaded the comment form, but changed before you submitted.
It’s a terrible solution.
No problem. Use 4 replacements…
“God said, “Take your son to the land of Moriah and kill your son there as a sacrifice for me.” (Genesis 22:2)
“Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” (Numbers 31:17-18)
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the churches and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.”(Matthew 6:5-6)
SuzieQ, I’m sure the attorneys from the ACLU would be more than happy to sit down with the folks from Liberty and edit the 10cs into a form that’s appropriate for the wall of a public school building. Who knows…Giles might get to keep 5 or 6!
You people are misreading this badly. Urbankski just gave Giles a gift from heaven, because they started with nothing. Now they have a foot in the door.
I think this is a brilliant and creative move by the judge. It says to Giles County, in effect, “OK, if you don’t have a religious motive, just don’t post the commandments that are explicitly religious.” If they refuse, they are tacitly admitting that their purpose in posting the 10 commandments is religious, and therefore unconstitutional. What title would you give to the remaining 6, though?
Jack,
Of the 7 cases you cited, 5 had nothing whatsoever to do with schools (Van Orden v. Perry …. Lynch v. Donnelly …. Marsh v. Chambers …. Lambeth v. Bd. Of Commissioners Of Davidson County ….. N. Carolina Civil Liberties Union Legal Found. v. Constangy,)
One of the two cases you that did involve schools concerned whether requiring the Pledge of Allegiance constitutes a violation of the establishment clause.
And in the one case on point, Stone v. Graham Myers, the precedent leans strongly toward the plantiff and the ACLU.
Once again i present the concrete evidence of what happens when a society turns it’s back on God. Couple that with the fact that we have murdered over 50 million innocent babies since Roe v Wade and it is no wonder our nation is crumbling around us. Babylon is fallen!
Look at the history of school shootings in the US after the SCOTUS effectively outlawed public acknowledgement of God in schools through prayer. I could not find any evidence of school shootings prior to 1962.
From Wikipedia “Those rulings were two landmark Supreme Court decisions, Engel v. Vitale [1962] and Abington School District v. Schempp [1963] (which included the well publicized case of Murray v. Curlett), establishing the current prohibition on state-sponsored prayer in schools. Following these two cases came the Court’s decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman [1971]. This ruling established the so-called “Lemon test” which states that in order to be constitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment any practice sponsored within state run schools (or other public, state sponsored activities) must:
1.Have a secular purpose;
2.Must neither advance nor inhibit religion; and
3.Must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion.
HERE ARE THE RESULTS !! You cannot deny the evidence! it should make us all cry.
Name Location Date Year Number of Victims
University of Texas Massacre Austin, Texas, August 1 1966 16
SC State killings1 Orangeburg, South Carolina, February 8 1968 3
Kent State shootings1 Kent, Ohio, United States May 4 1970 4
Jackson State shootings1 Jackson, Mississippi, May 14–15 1970 2
Olean High School shooting1 Olean, New York, December 30 1974 3
California State University, Fullerton, California, July 12 1976 7
Cleveland Elementary School San Diego, California, January 29 1979 2
Deer Creek Middle School shooting Littleton, Colorado, April 7 1982 1
Parkway South Middle School , Missouri, United States January 20 1983 2
Goddard Middle School shooting Goddard, Kansas, January 21 1985 1
Portland Junior High School Portland, Connecticut, December 10 1985 1
Pine Forest High School Fayetteville, North Carolina, May 6 1986 0
Pinellas Park High School Largo, Florida, February 11 1988 1
Hubbard Woods School Winnetka, Illinois, May 20 1988 1
Atlantic Shores School Chesapeake, Virginia, December 16 1988 1
Cleveland School Stockton, California, January 17 1989 6
University of Iowa Iowa City, Iowa, November 1 1991 6
Lindhurst High School Olivehurst, California, May 1 1992 4
Palo Duro High School Amarillo, Texas, September 11 1992 0
Berkner High School Richardson, Texas, November 6 1992 1
Edward Tilden High School Chicago, Illinois, November 20 1992 1
Simon’s Rock College Great Barrington, Massachusetts, December 14 1992 2
East Carter High School Grayson, Kentucky, January 18 1993 2
Fairfax High School Los Angeles, California, January 21 1993 1
Amityville High School Amityville, New York, February 1 1993 1
Reseda High School Reseda, California, February 22 1993 1
Wauwatosa West High School Wauwatosa, Wisconsin, December 1 1993 1
Central Middle SchoolSheridan, Wyoming, September 17 1993 1
Margaret Leary Elementary School Butte, Montana, April 12 1994 1
Grimsley High School Greensboro, North Carolina, October 12 1994 1
Wickliffe Middle School Wickliffe, Ohio, November 7 1994 1
Blackville-Hilda High SchoolBlackville, South Carolina, October 12 1995 2
Richland High School Lynnville, Tennessee, November 15 1995 2
Frontier Middle School Moses Lake, Washington, February 2 1996 3
Hamilton High School Scottdale, Georgia, February 2 1996 1
San Diego State University San Diego, California, August 15 1996 3
Hetzel Union Building State College, Pennsylvania, September 17 1996 1
Bethel Regional High School Bethel, Alaska, February 19 1997 2
Pearl High School Pearl, Mississippi, ctober 1 1997 2
Heath High School Paducah, Kentucky, United States December 1 1997 3
Westside Middle School Jonesboro, Arkansas, March 24 1998 5
Parker Middle School dance Edinboro, Pennsylvania, April 24 1998 1
Thurston High School Springfield, Oregon, May 20 1998 2
Columbine High School ittleton, Colorado, April 20 1999 13
Heritage High School Georgia, May 20 1999 0
Fort Gibson Middle School Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, December 6 1999 0
Buell Elementary School Mount Morris , Michigan, February 29 2000 1
Lake Worth Middle School Lake Worth, Florida, May 26 2000 1
University of Arkansas Fayetteville, Arkansas, August 28 2000 2
Santana High School Santee, California, United States March 5 2001 2
Granite Hills High School El Cajon, California, March 22 2001 0
Martin Luther King, Jr. High SchoolManhattan, New York, January 15 2002 0
Appalachian School of Law shooting Grundy, Virginia, January 16 2002 3
John McDonogh High School New Orleans, Louisiana, April 14 2003 1
Red Lion Area Junior High School Red Lion, Pennsylvania, April 24 2003 2
Case Western Reserve UniversityCleveland, Ohio, May 9 2003 1
Rocori High School Cold Spring, Minnesota, September 24 2003 2
Columbia High School East Greenbush, New York, February 9 2004 0
Fairleigh Dickinson University Florham Park, New Jersey, April 4 2004 2
Randallstown High School Randallstown, Maryland, May 7 2004 0
Red Lake Senior High School Red Lake, Minnesota, March 21 2005 8
Campbell County High School Jacksboro, Tennessee, November 8 2005 1
Pine Middle School Reno, Nevada, March 14 2006 0
Essex Elementary School Essex, Vermont, August 24 2006 2
Orange High School Hillsborough, North Carolina, August 30 2006 1
Platte Canyon High School Bailey, Colorado, September 27 2006 2
Weston High School Cazenovia, Wisconsin, September 29 2006 1
Amish school Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, October 2 2006 6
Henry Foss High School Tacoma, Washington, January 3 2007 1
Herbert Henry Dow High School Midland, Michigan, March 8 2007 1
University of North Carolina Greensboro, North Carolina, March 24 2007 0
University of Washington Seattle, Washington, April 2 2007 2
Virginia Tech massacre Blacksburg, Virginia, April 16 2007 32
Delaware State University Dover, Delaware, September 21 2007 1
SuccessTech Academy Cleveland, Ohio, October 10 2007 1
Louisiana Technical College Baton Rouge, Louisiana, February 8 2008 3
Mitchell High School Memphis, Tennessee, February 11 2008 0
E.O. Green School Oxnard, California, February 12 2008 1
Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Illinois, February 14 2008 6
Davidson High School Mobile, Alabama, March 9 2008 1
Central High School Knoxville, Tennessee, August 21 2008 1
Henry Ford High School Detroit, Michigan, October 16 2008 1
2008 University of Central Arkansas Conway, Arkansas, October 27 2008 2
Dillard High School Fort Lauderdale, Florida, November 12 2008 1
Henry Ford Community College Dearborn, Michigan, April 10 2009 2
Hampton University Hampton, Virginia, United States April 26 2009 0
Covina High School Covina, California, April 30 2009 0[14]
Wesleyan University1 Middletown, Connecticut, May 1 2009 1
Canandaigua Academy Canandaigua, New York, May 5 2009 1
Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts, May 18 2009 1[
Larose-Cut Off Middle School shooting Larose, Louisiana, May 18 2009 1
Skyline College San Bruno, California, September 2 2009 0
Atlanta University Center Atlanta, Georgia, September 3 2009 1[16]
Deer Valley High School Antioch, California, September 16 2009 0
Northern VirginiaCommunityCollege Woodbridge, Virginia, December 8 2009 0
Discovery Middle School Madison, Alabama, February 5 2010 1
University of Alabama Huntsville, Alabama, February 12 2010 3
Deer CreekMiddleSchool Jefferson County, Colorado, February 23 2010 0
Birney Elementary School Tacoma, Washington, February 26 2010 1
Ohio State University Columbus, Ohio, March 9 2010 2
Belleville Township HS East Belleville, Illinois, August 17 2010 1
University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas, September 28 2010 1
Alisal High School Salinas, California, October 1 2010 1]
Mid-AtlanticUniversity ElizabethCity,North Carolina, October 3 2010 1
Kelly Elementary School Carlsbad, California, October 8 2010 0
Marinette High School Marinette, Wisconsin, November 29 2010 1
MillardSouthHigh SchoolOmaha, Nebraska,United States January 5 2011 2
Martinsville West Middle School Martinsville,Indiana, March 25 2011 0
Worthing High School Houston, Texas, March 30 2011 1
Ross Elementary School Houston, Texas,April 19 2011 0
Pearl City Middle School Pearl City, Hawaii, May 23 2011 1
“You people are misreading this badly. Urbankski just gave Giles a gift from heaven, because they started with nothing. Now they have a foot in the door.”
Yeah, right. To get that “foot in the door” they have to edit God. I’ll bet a lunch that Liberty Counsel is unwilling to do that.
No doubt they are mixed. Also, this is not a case about schools, specifically. The First Amendment and the Establishment Clause say nothing about schools.
The case is about a government entity and whether or not it is promoting a specific religion. The fact that it is a school is irrelevant, really. The same argument that the student is raising could be raised by a patron of the DMV if the DMV had the Ten Commandments on its wall.
The Establishment Clause does say, however, that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”
Let us bear in mind that the Giles County school board is not Congress.
Maybe there is something in the Virginia Constitution that specifically bars this… but if we read the Establishment Clause and take what it says at face value, there is no problem here.
Jack,
The schools are irrelevant. They are extra relevant because of the impressionable minds therein.
Jack, you might want to tell the judge because he apparently sees a problem. Or else his unfettered support for Giles is being expressed in a very ambiguous fashion. He’s telling them they’re going to lose.
I assume you meant “not irrelevant,” so I’ll base my response on that assumption.
I doubt it is relevant in the eyes of the law. The Establishment Clause is what it is… it does not say that it is okay to do something in one place and less okay to do it in another, where there are impressionable minds.
The only piece of the Constitution that is relevant here is the very simple Establishment Clause, which reads “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” and the Free Exercise Clause, which reads “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
Neither one says anything about a specific entity, such as a school.
#26 Oh good god, will, not this silliness. I’m not going looking for other examples but I sure didn’t have to think hard to come up with a mass school killing before 1962. In fact, it was the worst mass school killing in U.S. history:
May 18, 1927 : In the deadliest mass school murder in United States history, former school board member Andrew Kehoe set off three bombs in Bath Township, Michigan killing 45 people and wounding 58. Kehoe killed himself and the superintendent by blowing up his own vehicle.
#21 Thanks for explaining that, Jack. Didn’t realize.
Yeah, right. To get that “foot in the door” they have to edit God. I’ll bet a lunch that Liberty Counsel is unwilling to do that
Giles may not agree it, but the ACLU certainly won’t. If a legal precedent is set that allows even part of a religious document in a public building then all bets are off as to what else will be allowed by future courts
This is one pandora’s box the plaintiffs won’t allow to see the light of day. If Giles is smart, they’ll sit back and make the ACLU reject it. Then they can cast the ACLU as hostile toward ANY expression of guidelines to virtuous living.
I see this is a can’t-lose for the GCSB.
“If indeed this issue is not about God, why wouldn’t it make sense for Giles County to say, ‘Let’s go back and just post the bottom six?’” Urbanski asked during a motions hearing in U.S. District Court in Roanoke.
“But if it’s really about God, then they wouldn’t be willing to do that.”
SNIP
Urbanski noted how one board member thanked the crowd for turning out to support the commandments.
“That’s not an endorsement of religion?” he said. “Come on.
“It’s clear to me that when the school board voted, there was only one thing on their mind. And that was God.”
I get a kick out of the posters here twisting themselves into pretzels to see something other than the obvious. Judge Urbanski couldn’t have telegraphed his intentions any more clearly.
Historical Display…
That is how it started..
Not standing alone as a religious document
All the other SCHOOL/RELIGIOUS DISPLAY cases had a religious display standing alone.
Not cut and dry comparable to Stone v. Graham
You guys don’t believe me! Once again Ill say the funds are there..and Liberty Counsel knows it. The ride has just begun!
HEY Dave Gresham (The most popular man in Franklin Co.!) I am glad an athiest is sharing God’s word with us. Thanks!
You remind me of the media.. taking soundbites and taking everything out of context. You are doing the same with the Old Testament. But God is just, and he is our father. He will bust our tails when we get out of line.
Im also glad you are reading the Bible, and pray God will reveal himself to you in that reading.
Jack, you’re right, my goof.
I haven’t read the cases. But by way of recollection, I recall court decisions differentiating between ceremonial prayers in adult government settings (such as state legislatures) and in schools, citing language such as impressionable minds for the latter.
#26 – will: it takes a lot of gall to act righteously indignant while lying. You point your finger at others who have turned their back on God, all while turning your own back on your God’s commandments. Since obviously you have no shame in your sin, I’ll just dismantle the blatant misinformation and dearth of logic in your comment myself, lest some poor soul believe it to be truth.
Allow me to present to you, sir, the only “concrete evidence” of anything in your post: “I could not find any evidence of school shootings prior to 1962.” You then go on to quote from Wikipedia as one of your sources.
Behold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting
I find it highly suspect that you found any information on school shootings without deliberately omitting the data that didn’t support your hypothesis. However, you can prove me wrong on that point. Please post the source where you got that information and I will apologize to you. We could all be relieved, as well, to have “concrete evidence” that you’re just ignorant of the truth and not a bald-faced liar.
And finally, correlation does not imply causation, and once the truth is known here there’s no correlation at all. You didn’t offer a single SHRED of evidence (even with your selective, incomplete data set) that pointed to the abolition of school prayer leading to the genesis of shootings in schools. Not one. It’s like saying that McDonald’s french fries are the best because Dairy Queen introduced the Blizzard in 1984. Your claim is as absurd and nonsensical as that one.
Many people have turned their backs on God because of “Christians” like you, will, not because of anything God did. You would do well to remember that the next time you’re praying to Him.
#26 I did not see your proof. A list yes, proof no. Care to try again or is that all you got? If we made a list of the crimes and murders committed by the church, members of church etc, would you agree that is because of God? Thought not….
Will, they are liberals… 1+1 = 3 to them.
Just don’t show them the charts about the rise in Teen Pregnancies, spike in Sexually transmitted diseases, single parent homes, violent crimes, and alcohol consumption..all on the quick rise after 1962.
Teen pregnancies are the most prevalent in “religious” states.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/10/teen-pregnancy-rates_n_1413820.html
How’s that “abstinence only” working out? Doh!
You can put Green Eggs and Ham on the wall and surround it with 1000 “historical documents”. Doesn’t mean the courts will support it.
- Teen birth rates were highest in the late ’50s.
- Teen pregnancy rates are at a 40-year low.
- STD rates are soaring, but there is absolutely NO correlation to 1962.
- Single-parent homes are at a high – again, though, no tangible correlation.
- Violent crime rates are at a high, but have been dropping yearly since 2006. This fact negates prayer in schools as being causal of the initial rise.
- Alcohol consumption has fluctuated above and below 1962 levels on multiple occasions, again establishing no correlation.
Thanks for playing, Pete. You, too, are part of the problem. There are many good, honest Christians out there with the right message and you’re severely damaging their cause. You taint their image, sir.
Wait, I have heard from more than one pro-gun person here that violent crime has declined because of the liberalization of gun laws in this country.
Teen pregnancies are the most prevalent in “religious” states.
Yawn. And the most religious states also have the highest percentage of blacks. And blacks are almost all Democrat. And we already know blacks have the highest percentage of teen pregnancies.
Honestly, don’t allow leftwingers to play with statistics. They only injure themselves
Re: Comment by Dan Casey — May 8, 2012 @ 7:31 pm
Did Dan just introduce the “g” word, yet again.
Those folk who complain about the prevalence of a certain topic need to pay attention.
Re: Comment by Dan Casey — May 8, 2012 @ 7:31 pm
Dan,
Haven’t you claimed that you were “pro-gun” but just had some limited reservations about training and the like?
You guys don’t believe me! Once again Ill say the funds are there..and Liberty Counsel knows it. The ride has just begun
Pistol Pete is right. This is all paid for. Won’t cost the taxpayers a dime.
@Kristen: “Jack, you might want to tell the judge because he apparently sees a problem. Or else his unfettered support for Giles is being expressed in a very ambiguous fashion. He’s telling them they’re going to lose.”
Then he should go ahead and tell them that and save them additional funds.
@Dan: “Jack, you’re right, my goof.
I haven’t read the cases. But by way of recollection, I recall court decisions differentiating between ceremonial prayers in adult government settings (such as state legislatures) and in schools, citing language such as impressionable minds for the latter.”
I cited the first few cases that I found based in Virginia or related Federal cases. There were a bunch, and I’m not even sure if they all relate, I just didn’t look through all of them. I did skip through some that clearly didn’t seem relevant.
My point is that there are several factors that can come into play in a decision like this.
Dan-
“Wait, I have heard from more than one pro-gun person here that violent crime has declined because of the liberalization of gun laws in this country.”
Who?
Suzie-
“Yawn. And the most religious states also have the highest percentage of blacks. And blacks are almost all Democrat. And we already know blacks have the highest percentage of teen pregnancies.
Honestly, don’t allow leftwingers to play with statistics. They only injure themselves.”
From: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/11/24/explaining-variation-in-teen-pregnancy-rates-by-state-race-and-sex-education/
The ten states with the lowest teen pregnancy rates:
North Dakota
Minnesota
New York
Maine
Vermont
Connecticut
Rhode Island
Massachusetts
Delaware
New Jersey
As rated by their voting in the last five presidential elections, only one (North Dakota) is a Republican state. New Hampshire slightly leans Democratic, and the remaining eight are solidly Democratic.
Let’s look at some of the states ranked “significantly higher” than the U.S. average.
Wyoming- Solidly Republican. Not known for it’s large population of African Americans.
Kansas- Ditto and Ditto.
Indiana- See Wyoming and Kansas.
West Virginia- Leans Republican and in the bottom half for black population.
North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Alabama have large black populations but are all also solidly Republican.
Florida is 15th in African American population and leans slightly Democratic.
And how about the ten worst states for teenage birth rate?
Arizona- Low black population and leans Republican.
Kentucky- 25th in black population, leans Republican.
Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Tennessee all have significant black populations but are also solidly Republican.
Arkansas- Has a significant black population and leans Republican.
Nevada leans Democratic and only New Mexico is solidly Democratic.
To sum up:
*Of the 20 worst states for teen pregnancy, four have both small black populations and are solidly Republican.
*Three more have small black populations and lean Republican.
*Ten more have significant black populations but are also solidly Republican.
So 14 of the 20 are solidly Republican and three more lean Republican.
Two lean Democratic and only one is solidly so.
And hell, I’m bored so how about this:
Five of the twenty best states for teenage pregnancy have significant black populations and are either solidly or lean Democratic.
P.S.
From the site I used comes this:
“Race, then, doesn’t predict differences in rates of teen pregnancy all by itself. In fact, White teenagers are more likely to get pregnant in some states than Black and Latina teenagers in others. There must be something region- or state-specific driving teen pregnancy rates.”
Hmmm, and what might that be…?
“All five states with the highest teen birth rates have adopted policies requiring that abstinence be stressed when taught as part of sex education, HIV education or both, the group found. Only one of the five states (New Mexico) mandates that sex education be a part of students’ curriculum.
“Of the four states with the lowest teen birth rates, none requires that abstinence be stressed to students, according to Guttmacher.”
Hey, there’s a shocker! Abstinence only education, darling of conservatives, might just be responsible. Add to that the who knows how many studies showing it doesn’t work…
Where my damn ribs?!
Great book or documentary by writer of the Chicago Tribune (An Atheist).
Would challenge many of you on here to read. I guess that was a dare!
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/case-for-christ-lee-strobel/1100638575?ean=9780310209300
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/dvd-the-case-for-christ-lee-strobel/12809291?ean=12236217008
Good stuff, Jason!
Jason,
What makes you think the pregnant teens are from Republican families? Georgia has the 9th most minorities and the 5th most teenage pregnancies. Yet it is reliably Republican. Are you saying all those black folks are Republican? This is what I mean about morons being allowed to handle statistics.
But just to debunk this garbage for good, let’s look at the obvious correlation between Jason’s list of teenage pregnancy vs that state’s percent of minorities:
States(+DC) with highest % of minorities (excluding Hawaii) / rank in % of teen pregnancies
Washington DC —–1st
Nevada———–21st
Arizona———–19th
Mississippi——— 2nd
Texas————-15th
Florida————20th
California———–3rd
Georgia————-5th
North Carolina——14th
Arkansas———–22th
That’s an average ranking of 12.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_per_of_peo_who_are_whi_alo-people-percent-who-white-alone
Pistol Pete-
He’s not an atheist. That there was some historical figure known as Jesus isn’t much in question among the relevant scholars. And I don’t even need to read the book to guess what his “evidence” is regarding Jesus’ divinity, something that can’t be proven and is supposed to be a matter of faith.
Cut the Big 10 down to 6? Pffft. That’s nothin’. George Carlin cut it down to 2. Giles County should use Carlin’s version.
From George:
“I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that’s a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.
Let’s start with the first three:
I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN
THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH
Right off the bat the first three are pure bullsh*t. Sabbath day? Lord’s name? Strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we’re down to 7. Next:
HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER
Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn’t be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent’s performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don’t, period. You’re down to six.
Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we’re going to jump around the list a little bit.
THOU SHALT NOT STEAL
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS
Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don’t really need two. You combine them and call the commandment “thou shalt not be dishonest”. And suddenly you’re down to 5.
And as long as we’re combining I have two others that belong together:
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR’S WIFE
Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don’t think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else’s wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he’s waxing his carrot? But, marital fidelity is a good idea so we’re gonna keep this one and call it “thou shalt not be unfaithful”. And suddenly we’re down to four.
But when you think about it, honesty and fidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing “thou shalt always be honest and faithful” and we’re down to 3.
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR”S GOODS
This one is just plain f**kin’ stupid. Coveting your neighbor’s goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays “o come o ye faithful”, and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you’re down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven’t talked about yet:
THOU SHALT NOT KILL
Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Kashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who’s doin the killin’ and who’s gettin’ killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:
Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.
&
Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.
Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his f**kin’ pocket. I wouldn’t mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:
Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.”
(Replace ‘Alabama’ with ‘Giles County’ for current event purposes. ;-} )
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT LOGICAL FALLACIES
http://scotteriology.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/thou-shalt-not-commit-logical-fallacies/
will gets the award for most egregious error in rational thought and an extra tip of the hat for pasting such a long turd of non evidence.
His specific fallacies:
1)False Cause: “the fallacy committed when an argument mistakenly attempt to establish a causal connection. ”
2)The Texas Sharpshooter fallacy: “is a logical fallacy in which pieces of information that have no relationship to one another are called out for their similarities, and that similarity is used for claiming the existence of a pattern[1].”
Shame on you sir.
Dang, what is like to sit around and connect invisible dots with invisible lines all day.
Pistol Pete is also a fallacy machine for plopping out a short list of societal ills and connecting them to the prayer in school issue…again with no evidence. In both cases it sounds as though some evangelical preacher blared crazy crap from the pulpit and both will and Pete were obliged to believe it because it fit with their view of the world.
We all want explanations; some of us require them to be true or at least supported by evidence.
Call me crazy, but if there is, indeed, a rise in sexually transmitted diseases, wouldn’t it make more sense that it was because people where having sex more frequently with other people. Pete if you know a way to get herpes or gonorrhea from “not praying in school”, I’d love to hear about it.
57
I think Mike Scott just blasted Jason for his logical fallaciy that pregnant teenage blacks come from Republican families.
Narrows High School’s historical documents display contains 29 framed documents. The ACLU is only demanding Giles County censor one of them, the Ten Commandments.
The Declaration of Independence mentions our “Creator,” and the Magna Carta and the Mayflower Compact mention “God.” A number of the founding documents mention God, but the ACLU is only interested in censoring God from one of them, which doesn’t make much sense.
As a matter of fact, that is not the only mention of the Ten Commandments in Giles County Schools. One high school history book depicts the “Roots of Democracy,” which shows the primary root being the Ten Commandments.
When the judge asked the attorneys to compromise and reduce to Six Commandments, the ACLU said they didn’t even want the remaining six to seem like commandments. For example, they want “thou shall not” to be removed from even the remaining ones.
The historical documents display is also privately sponsored, not by the school.
Jason
Explain these with a factual response.
If to you Christ was not resurrected, why such an explosion of Christians AFTER his death even when the Romans were killing and torturing followers of him? Looks like if people never witnessed a resurrection, then there would be no purpose for a growth in Christians.
Pistol…
I’ve read a fair amount of Lee Strobel, and criticisms of Lee Strobel. Have you ever examined his claims… Sometimes he lies..
http://evaluatingchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/the-case-against-lee-strobel/
#54 “teenage pregnancy vs that state’s percent of minorities:”
Not how troll suzie suddenly switches her argument from states with a high percentage of blacks (#45) to states with the highest percentage of minorities (#54), which is NOT the same thing. I wonder why she would do that? Gee, I just don’t know.
#54 suzie once again up at what she has proclaimed a “loser” time of night — 11:40 p.m. I’m sure she then went to bed, got in her 5-6 hours of sleep, and was back up at 3:10 a.m. After she reinvented how to do addition.
Jack, I completely agree with you. I wouldn’t consider Urbanski a giant of jurisprudence. He chickened out.
“If to you Christ was not resurrected, why such an explosion of Christians AFTER his death even when the Romans were killing and torturing followers of him? Looks like if people never witnessed a resurrection, then there would be no purpose for a growth in Christians.”
Since this is based on nothing factual, it’s impossible to make a factual response. I’d say the same argument could be made about Mormonism…they believe Jesus stopped by in North America after he died. Does the fact that Mormonism is a fast-growing religion make it true? PP, you DO believe Jesus was in the Yucatan?
Mike Scott
During a murder trail, with 50 witnesses to the act.. How often is it that every single person says they saw and heard EXACTLY the same thing.
Usually not, because then the prosecution says they got together and got their stories straight.
But in most cases, they give a testimony that summarizes the event.
Your link by some guy on a wordpress blog is picking and choosing minute details that don’t matter. Historical facts, are historical facts..
Kristen, Why is Christianity not popular in North Korea or Iran right now?
Now that you have the answer to that in your mind..
Same situation in the Middle East during 33-60 AD, Romans persecuted vocal Christians.. But the faith still exploded in numbers?
Do you have another explanation?
“If to you Christ was not resurrected, why such an explosion of Christians AFTER his death…”
Why are there more Dale Earnhardt Sr. fans now than ever? He’s been dead eleven years.
Contra,
Thanks for posting Carlin’s infamous list. Taken in the proper context, we can all have a good laugh…. some of us more than others.
#60 Pistol Pete-
The story of the resurrection of Jesus, is a story as old as time. Many people and cultures have a death and rebirth component. All have been recorded after the fact, by stories passed down from generation to generation, in hieroglyphics or written documents. Socrates, Plato, Herodotus among many other early “historians”, documented the myths of death and rebirth of different cultures’ gods. These cults, as they were called, had followers spanning the ancient world to modern times:
Ancient Greek Deity: Dionysus worshipped 1500 – 1100 BC
Ancient Greek Deity: Adonis worshipped 1100 – 600 BC
Phoenician Deity Eshmun: worshipped Iron Age to 100 BC
Phrygia Deity Attis: worshipped 1200 – 300 BC
Hindu Deity Krishna: possibly 1800 BC – modern times Hindu
Egyptian Deity Osiris: worshipped 2494 BC – 8th century AD
Thracian Deity Zalmoxis: worshipped 93 BC – modern times in Romania
All the above tell of the death and rebirth of these “gods”.
The story of Jesus’ resurrection is not a unique story, nor is it the oldest. Krishna, for example began earlier than the story of Jesus, and continues to modern times as the Hindu religion – the third largest religion in the world.
I don’t want to dissuade you from your beliefs, but your comment – “Looks like if people never witnessed a resurrection, then (sic) there would be no purpose for a growth in Christians.” – your premise ignores the facts. Firstly, there is no historical document listing others witnessing Jesus’ resurrection. Secondly, Islam is second to only Christianity in the number of followers, and reported to be the fastest growing religion in the world, and yet has no resurrection [death and rebirth] story. I therefore see no connection between a resurrection story and the number of followers.
Not how troll suzie suddenly switches her argument from states with a high percentage of blacks (#45) to states with the highest percentage of minorities (#54), which is NOT the same thing. I wonder why she would do that? Gee, I just don’t know.
Blacks? Thanks for bringing that up. Kristen’s link says Mississippi has the highest teen pregnancy rate and New Hampshire has the lowest.
Mississippi also has the HIGHEST percentage of blacks of any state, and New Hampshire is 43rd. That’s even a stronger correlatiion than my first comparison. Thanks for helping me make my point, Gdad.
LMAO.
#54 suzie once again up at what she has proclaimed a “loser” time of night — 11:40 p.m. I’m sure she then went to bed, got in her 5-6 hours of sleep, and was back up at 3:10 a.m. After she reinvented how to do addition.
Gdad is getting freaking weirder and weirder. Now he’s obsessing that I woke up early one morning, and went to bed later several days later, and spouts nonsense about re-inventing addition. Notice how even the leftwingers stay away from the oddball when he starts this mindless stuff.
Thank God Dan finally told him to shut the hell up about Bob H. and the Bedford thing.
If hanging the ten commandments in a school hallway is considered to be forcing religion onto people, then why is it that forcing Giles County to remove the posters with the commandments isn’t considered to be forcing an absence of religion onto those same people?
If the poster is there, then everyone has their own choice whether or not to read it or pay attention to it. No individuals loose their ability to choose for themselves.
If the poster is not there, nobody has their own choice about whether or not to read that poster anymore. EVERY individuals’ choices are taken away.
If you ask me, Freedom of Religion is all about choice. If you remove the ability to choose, then how can you possibly claim that everyone has “Freedom of Religion?”
Forcing an absence of religion is just as much, if not more, of an example of the government endorsing and/or pushing a religious belief as is hanging up a poster with the ten commandments that nobody is forced to read.
Dan:
“Wait, I have heard from more than one pro-gun person here that violent crime has declined because of the liberalization of gun laws in this country.”
Speaking of that:
http://tinyurl.com/7hggmjn
#71 wait, wait….what???
hokie, if they so desperately need to be in the presence of a 10 Cs poster, they can stick one in their own locker. They are also free to hang one on every single wall of their home. Put a billboard in their front yard.
This is nothing to do with the First Amendment…it’s about the local Xian Sharia cramming their theology down the throats of a captive audience.
There’s nothing complicated in what I wrote in #71.
If the posters are removed, then nobody gets to make a choice for themselves whether or not they pay attention to the posters.
If the posters are left in place, then everyone gets to make their own individual choice as to whether or not they pay attention to them.
If the claim is that Giles County is endorsing a certain religion by hanging these posters, then it is equally credible to claim that those who wish to remove the posters are endorsing a lack of religion. Endorsing a lack of religion is still an endorsement of a particular religious choice, right? All I’m saying is that it goes both ways. A lot of people don’t seem to understand that.
#71 and #75: hokie24, I tend to agree with you, at length. In using that logic, though, it would seem that the only way to be fair in this case would be to put posters of ALL major religions’ basic tenets side-by-side with the ten commandments. Naturally, no one poster should be allowed to be larger or feature more prominently than the others. If it’s really only about giving the students a choice, as you say, then there’s no way anyone can argue this.
Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments, though, if you wanted to place a list of commandments from the Quran right next to it? The very same people fighting to keep the 10-Cs in school would be absolutely SCREAMING to have the Quran passages removed.
Take it down and put this petty issue to rest, Giles County. You can’t win this fight without opening a Pandora’s Box for which you’re woefully unprepared. Should you win, it would only serve to illuminate your hypocrisies to the world when the tolerance you’re asking for is turned back on you in kind.
I would be perfectly ok with that J.M. White. If placing a poster for every religion isn’t possible, you could at least try to have a poster that represents each religion that is represented by any students, faculty, or staff at the school. I would be all for providing more opportunities for folks to learn more about the religions of the people who are around them every day. To me, that sounds like a great way for students to learn about each other’s beliefs in a way that could be very constructive. Plus it would be a real-world application because it would apply directly to all of the students in that school. Understanding and the ability to choose and ask questions would lead to more acceptance and less discrimination too, in my opinion.
J.M. White is exactly right. If the Quran were on the wall, those VERY SAME folks would be having a meltdown. If the school wins, it will set up retaliation with ideas that no one wants to see. I wish the school could keep the commandments, but know their place, which they obviously don’t.
What is the big resistance to learning things outside of one’s comfort zone? Geez.
How about these two
Be excellent to each other
Party on, dudes.
They don’t want the Quran on the wall for the exact same reason they DO want the 10 cs. Because posting them is endorsing them.
If the Social Studies teacher hangs up a Obama 2012 and a Romney 2012 poster in his/her classroom, does that mean that he/she endorses both candidates?
I’d display that poster, Old Blue!
Calling the ten commandments an “historical” document is like calling Gone With The Wind an historical treatise on the Civil War. Like the bible, a fiction interspersed with some historically accurate facts…nothing more nothing less -the ten commandments are just a chapter in that fiction.
IMHO, the ten commandments belong in churches or parochial schools, not public buildings.
81.”If the Social Studies teacher hangs up a Obama 2012 and a Romney 2012 poster in his/her classroom, does that mean that he/she endorses both candidates?”
Perfect example hokie24
“IMHO, the ten commandments belong in churches or parochial schools, not public buildings.”
I think the commandments belong in the school along with other works of opinion and fiction and the like. There’s a lot to be learned from them provided the teachers aren’t religious fundy absolutists. THAT is the real problem. Apparently, the school board has its share.
I don’t think that calling the Bible and Gone With The Wind equally “historical” is going to gain any credibility from anyone on either side of this issue for your point of view.
Suzie could not possibly have any ass left. She has surely LMAO’D it completely by now.
If to you, Christ was God’s son, born of a virgin, died on the Cross for our sins and resurrected so that we are “saved by Grace”, why do you need the Commandments posted anywhere except your home and place of worship? What use are the OT Leviticus Laws of condemnation that so many parse and use for a weapon while not following themselves? Are you sure of your faith or do you need it to be fortified with public displays and worse, idolatry from people who do not even practice the tenets? Cheapening God like we do the flag, by wearing it on our lapel while ignoring most of what it stands for is not Christianity in the first place and either you live in a nation of laws that does not choose one religion over another as a matter of course or you risk living in a Theocracy and, as you yourself have mentioned, “they” will outnumber you one day. Think once in a while, would it kill ya?
Hokie24, there are not posters from the top two religions represented on display, there is a poster with ONE religion represented. ONE. And yes, if that one was Islam, you too would see the point PDQ.
#59 “…The historical documents display is also privately sponsored, not by the school.”
Jack,
If private citizens can display anything in a public school, then I assume you would support the posting of the Quran? Heck, I will make my own list of 10 items to post, would you support that idea?
An American election is apropos to all students in a civics classroom. Religious tracts are not.
Should Giles choose to hang a copy of the Gettysburg Address on the wall, I doubt they’d get any pushback. And if they were told to take it down, I doubt they’d retain Liberty’s battery of legal power to defend it.
“66.Kristen, Why is Christianity not popular in North Korea or Iran right now?”
Probably for the same reasons…”Same situation in the Middle East during 33-60 AD, Romans persecuted vocal Christians”. They’re annoying.
“Private sponsorship” doesn’t mean a thing. Perhaps I should offer to pay for a local school to give a showing of that mockumentary that featured Bush’s assassination? Appropriate just because it’s “free” to the taxpayers? I think not. School walls aren’t billboards for private advertising. And Giles doesn’t have a prayer.
It doesn’t matter if an actual relevant historical document mentions “the Creator”. It’s like claiming that Southpark has a religious component because Cartman says “Jesus Christ” a lot.
“Hokie24, there are not posters from the top two religions represented on display, there is a poster with ONE religion represented. ONE. And yes, if that one was Islam, you too would see the point PDQ.”
What are you talking about? Top two? Who was talking about top two of anything?
I see that you didn’t read my earlier responses about how I think the best idea would be to acknowledge, at minimum, every religion that is practiced by any student, faculty, or staff member within that particular school with the goal of promoting acceptance and understanding between people who believe in different religions. I think this idea, as fantasy-land as it may be, would lead to more acceptance and less religious discrimination due to a lack of understanding of religions that may not be as familiar to each of us as our own religious beliefs.
I get it that this isn’t Giles County’s goal when they want to hang the posters. I get it that Giles is only interested in posting Christian posters. I get all that. WE ALL get that. I don’t support that mindset. Heaven forbid, but I’m actually thinking outside the box and taking it a step further, and encouraging activities that could lead to more religious understanding and less religious discrimination between people of different religions.
#85 Comment by hokie24 “…gain any credibility from anyone on either side of this issue for your point of view.”
Not trying to “gain” anyone to my point of view…that would be their choice. However, anyone who had read {have you?} Gone With the Wind, knows that most of the historical content [battles of Vicksburg, Gettysburg, the march into Atlanta by Sherman etc] are all accurate – the non historical “characters” in the story have entire conversations and stories built around them…the bible has some historical accuracy [Romans, kings, places etc] – and there are supposedly “recorded” conversations…Moses, Noah, etc.
The parallel to me, [not necessarily anyone else] is clear. You can choose to see it or not…
Sounds good Hillary. I definitely choose to believe that the Bible is slightly more historically significant than a movie.
I have questions. Ones that haven’t been satisfactorily answered by any preacher/priest/minster I’ve ever asked, and I’ve asked many, so I pose them to you godless heathens (I kid, of course. Except for you. Yeah, you. You know who you are):
Exodus 20:4 states: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”
Is a crucifix not a graven image? Wouldn’t having one in a church qualify as an abomination and curse the place and all within? Did God change the rules after Jesus and where is this change documented?
It’s just one of the many hypocrisies that made me choose to search for God elsewhere, outside the church.
Why would we want our children to be raised by the school system? Hang the commandments in your living room and teach them to your children yourself.
My guess is that most of the folks kicking up all the sand couldn’t recite all ten of them anyway.
They say we’re taking God out of the schools. If you raise your kids in a religious environment at home, then God will follow them to school.
#94 Comment by hokie24 – “I definitely choose to believe that the Bible is slightly more historically significant than a movie.”
So you didn’t like Charlton Heston in the “Ten Commandments”?
J.M. White,
The easy answer is that the religions other than Catholic, will disregard the crucifix thing to avoid having to answer it.
To me, everything one believes needs to be defended with logic and reason or admitted to being an emotional position one chooses to take. If emotion and sentimental feelings are what compels one to cling to their religious beliefs, that’s fine, but call it as it is. if you claim something to be fact, defend it with facts, logic, and reason.
I kid you not, I’ve heard many different people bend over backwards trying to scientifically explain the story of Noah’s Ark.
If the crucifix/graven image thing just isn’t that important in to you reality, just say so, but please oh please don’t create a religious loophole that makes it okay with your God.
“So you didn’t like Charlton Heston in the “Ten Commandments”?”
Sure, but I also liked Mel Brooks as Moses. Are we forgetting the first time the number of commandments was trimmed down?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L940yIeVZzE
John Wilburn…thanks for the memories, and the laugh! I forgot how funny Mel Brooks et al were back in the day….seems we could laugh at ourselves a lot more back then..
Mr. Wilburn: I, too, have to chuckle at the Noah’s Ark paradox. Not to mention how it’s a virtual word-for-word retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh, which predates the earliest Judeo-Christian stories by a thousand years. Which, in turn, is most likely an embellished historical retelling of the flooding of the Black Sea through the Bosporus Strait. Or, as new evidence may suggest, the flooding of the Mediterranean Sea through the Straits of Gibraltar, an event that even oral traditions would be unlikely to soon forget.
And let’s not forget that the serpent in the Garden of Eden could possibly be the vilification of Tiamat in the Babylonian pantheon. The Old Testament has several proper names for Satan, most of them being Babylonian gods. Ba’al would be the most evident example, though he later became associated as one of Satan’s “generals”. And how do you start replacing an established faith? By demonizing their gods and outlawing their ceremonies.
Which brings us back to idolatry, which was central to many Middle Eastern religions at the time. I laugh every time I’ve gone into Christians’ homes at Christmastime and pointed out that their trees, wreaths and even the decorations are of pagan origin and little more than blatant idolatry.
Wedding rings? Also pagan origin, as is marriage itself. The illogical piles up so fast they usually freak right out.
What about the books “omitted” from the Bible? I don’t recall God ordering the canonizations of His word. Was there a memo to which only the Pope was privy?
Then, I drop the real bombshell: I may actually believe in God; I just think they’re clueless as to who He is.
Oh my. As if I wasn’t loquacious enough as it is… The point is that faith, no matter what flavor, is usually a good thing. Zealotry, which is what’s happening in Giles, is usually a harbinger of very ugly times ahead.
If you raise your kids in a religious environment at home, then God will follow them to school.
Our concern is for the liberals’ kids in public school who get no religious teaching at home. They’re the ones who need to hear it in the schools. Heck, we already feed them two meals a day.
#102 “Our concern is for the liberals’ kids in public school who get no religious teaching at home. They’re the ones who need to hear it in the schools.”
Religious zealotry is an ugly thing.
“Our concern is for the liberals’ kids in public school who get no religious teaching at home. They’re the ones who need to hear it in the schools.”
Good point.
Attention parents: Warn your children about religious zealots and bigotry at home!
Suzie’s concewrn as a parent for the kids of liberals not raised in religious extremist homes is quite touching. Her vast experienfce in raising children and teaching them the proper values makes her such an expert on the subject. Oh wait! I forgot, she hasn’t raised any.
John W, the Mel Brooks clip was great! Here’s one of my favorites:
http://youtu.be/oppHeMlaLVM