Guest post: The Bible Is Not The Word Of God
Grafic by Dan
Note from Dan: This was submitted by Dave Gresham, who lives on the Franklin County side of the Smith Mountain Lake. He has recently waged a campaign to persuade the Franklin County Board of Supervisors from opening their public meetings with denominational prayer.
By Dave Gresham
For the past couple of months I have been working to stop Franklin County’s policy of opening their meetings with Christian prayers. (First privately, then publicly when that failed.)
Last Friday, one of the Board members told me that they have decided to go back to non-denominational prayers only. (At least until a higher court rules on the ACLU’s lawsuit against neighboring Pittsylvania County, who had been opening their meetings with Christian prayers, until an injunction stopped them.)
Why don’t these so-called leaders read the Constitution and Bill of Rights?
Church and State are to be kept separate. For the protection of both!
These actions of mine have resulted in total strangers calling me, most of them with hostile insults. I have also received a number of similar emails. And every one of them is a righteous Christian, of course.
The letter that follows is one of the few responses I bothered to write to any of these detractors, since he was at least polite.
I share it in hopes of getting more people to think about what they believe, versus what they know, which are not the same concepts.
He began the conversation by sending me an email, to which I replied, to which he countered (without addressing a single point I made), and so I ended our exchange with this final reply.
—————————————————
The Bible is the Word of God? No thank you!
I’ll take love and the golden rule.
As for Thomas Paine? I won’t waste time arguing your errors, but I can tell you he is a hero to me.
Note the golden rule is not based on the Bible, but rather is an innate knowledge within all mankind. The idea literally carries its own authority as the truth. We choose to obey it, or not. This universal truth is always co-opted by priestcrafters to help sell fictional authority over us.
Nor is Jesus above us. He was just a great teacher, turned into a new and improved religious business, after he got killed trying to end the Moses business. (All religions put icons above us, so their priestcrafters can be above us in their icon’s absence.)
Bible quote:
“God said, “Take your son to the land of Moriah and kill your son there as a sacrifice for me.” Genesis 22:2)
This is the word of God?
No. This is the word of a demon.
1. A real God would be too good to ask such a thing.
2. A real God would be too almighty to need to.
3. We put people in jail or asylums if they set out to do such thing!
Bible quote:
“Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” Numbers 31:17-18)
This too, is the word of demon.
1. God wants orphans?
2. To be sex slaves?
3. Owned by murderers?
4. Of their families?
This particular passage is one of the most wicked ideas ever written by man. And the wicked author put the words in God’s mouth, no less!
The Bible is not the word of God! It is the word of men…
Bible quote:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
1. Aside from the obvious that we all had mothers…..
2. Are female bosses an offense to God?
3. A grown man should live his life and learn nothing from half the world?
4. You married? Is your wife too stupid to teach you anything? Of course not.
Bible quote:
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the churches and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.”(Matthew 6:5-6)
So why are you disobeying your Word of God!?
But the bottom line point here is that the whole affair is a matter of Constitutional principle and that our government must be religiously neutral. As far as I’m concerned, people like you are persecutors, believing it their right to privately contact and intrude on strangers with a different point of view… We can agree to disagree, which for both of us is our right, but please leave me alone. (I will concede that you have at least been gentlemanly, which is more than I can say for many others who represent your brand of God.)
You should really look into Deism. Love and the golden rule is all the religion we need.
I wish you well.
Good bye.
Dave Gresham
————————————————————————————————–
Here is the first email reply I sent to him. I hoped this might make him stop and think, even imagining he might search for Thomas Paine’s brilliant book on the internet (public domain). But when he replied with brainwashed Christian lies about Paine, I realized it was not to be and sent him the second email you just read…
————————————————————————————————–
Thomas Paine, one of America’s founding fathers, explains the falsehood of bible authority better than I can. The following words, paraphrased and abridged, are drawn from a letter he wrote to a friend, and also from his book The Age of Reason, which was the most controversial book in history for 60 years, until Darwin’s Origin of the Species.
“You cite quotations from the Bible, which you call the word of God, to show my opinions on religion are wrong. However, I could give you as many quotes from the same book to show yours are wrong, so the Bible settles nothing as it decides any way we choose. But by what authority do you call the Bible the “word of God?” This is the first point to be settled!
It is not your calling it so that makes it true, any more than Muslims calling the Koran the “word of God” makes that true. Popish councils voted the books that now comprise the New Testament to be the “word of God.” This was done by yeas and nays as we vote a law. They rejected some, voted others doubtful, such as the books called the Apocrypha, and those books which had a majority of votes are presented as God’s official word.
The Pharisees of the second temple selected the books that comprise the Old Testament, which is also represented to us as God’s official word.
And this is all the authority there is, which is no authority at all. I am as capable of judging for myself as they were, and even more, because they made a living by their religion, so they had an interest in the vote they made.
It is said in the Bible that God spoke to Moses, but how do you know? Because, you say, the Bible says so. The Koran says that God spoke to Mohammed, do you believe that too? No. Why not? Because, you say you do not believe it. And so, because you do, and because you do not, is all the reason you can give for believing or disbelieving, except that you will say that Mohammed was an impostor. And how do you know Moses was not an imposter? As for me, all are impostors who pretend to deliver instructions from God.
That bloodthirsty man, called the prophet Samuel, makes God say, (1 Sam. 15:3), “Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”
It is blasphemy to believe that God decreed it. All our ideas of the justice and goodness of God revolt at such impious cruelty. It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes here!”
Paine’s logic is irrefutable. And as for his book The Age of Reason (note there are two major parts and one minor), it should be required reading for anyone who proselytizes.
See for yourself why Thomas Jefferson loved him like a brother, or why Abraham Lincoln said “I never tire of reading Paine.” Then take a copy to your clergyman and\ watch the discomfort.
When it gets right down to it, priestcrafters make a living serving their neighbors in ways the rest of us do for free. This by itself is not wrong, as some people have no one else to call. But make no mistake, anyone who has subjected themselves to be ruled by love has all the religion they need.
May 4, 2012 - 6:00 AM
Excellent post! Superb writing! Thank you, Mr. Gresham!
As far as religion goes, all I’ve got to say is, “May the Fourth be with you.”
And too, I mean if it really was the word
of God, why didn’t he leave us just one good CD
Or an 8 track to help us get over those rough spots.
And I-d much prefer a small venue and acoustics
over hard to understand Iron Butterfly lyrics.
This nonsense is why I don’t subscribe to this paper, nor will I ever. Because Dan Casey is unregenerate (as we see given his same words that the Pharisees used against Jesus) I don’t expect the darkness to comprehend the Light. But what I truly didn’t expect is that this so-called reputable publication would allow this refutable childish tantrum from an agenda driven Atheist to be given any credibility. It’s no wonder your revenue is down and your paper is struggling. It’s because you allow hurtful condensending articles that alienate your audience and make the Christian reader seem like a buffoon. Dan Casey is the real buffoon here and evidently you must like his act so much that it causes you some warped anti-Christian enjoyment as your paper goes down the drain.
It must be a miserable empty lonely life when your mission in life is to keep people from praying.
Haha, what an utterly foolish post. Prime example of how one takes out only pieces of the Bible and spins it to satisfy themselves. Taking things out of their context is a foolish way to make an argument, and it would take a fool to be persuaded by it (kinda like Fox News). Your second mistake is that your applying man’s logic to a supernatural being, could it be perhaps that the aforementioned being could do and understand things that our feeble human brains could never understand fully.
I understand the rationale for separation of church and state, but Dan you never should have allowed someone to spew this garbage.
Skewed versions of History.
Gresham had to come to dan look like a hero…make himself feel better…raise the ole self esteem,
…in reality he realized he just isolated himself from his community.
God doesn’t play games… He wants people who honor him.
How many civilizations/nations did God destroy because of Sin?
Boy those Romans sure thought they had it all together ..didn’t they?
So do we as Americans.
That History does not lie..
J kitts,
Thank you for reading and posting to this blog.
My dad loved me, but he busted my tail when I got out of line.
Dave, I’m impressed that you tried and are trying. However, since religion often flies in the face of logic, using logic to argue with a devout person is an automatic fail. While I have met Christians who have analyzed their faith and that faith has grown stronger, thinking Christians who are able to maintain both reason and leaps of faith…they are few and exceedingly far between.
Satan is everywhere.
#4 This guy isn’t trying to stop a single soul from praying in silence all they want, or even praying out loud — just as long as it isn’t the official prayer of that governmental body. What’s so bad about that?
#4 BTW, he also doesn’t want any governmental bodies taking up Muslim prayers.
I dont know about Dan..
But I pray.
I pray every day that people
will think rationally and not toss
their fate to the spaghetti monster.
If you dont understand it dont give up
and look at the sky.
Try harder…stop looking at he sky and try harder..
or start listening to people that dont get all their messages
in the nuances of the clouds.
@3 J. Kitts, you prove my point entirely. If you stand over there in your “light” and declare that the rest of us are in darkness, then you stand in judgment and I don’t believe that true Christians stand in judgment. You prove how easy it is for the Christian reader to seem like a buffoon.
This isn’t about religion. No one is trying to stop you from believing. It is about the separation of church and state…which in and of itself was meant to PROTECT your right to believe what you want. The fact that this very clear concept is lost on folks is just beyond belief to me.
Matthew 24:40-41
Im praying for that!
I stopped giving Dan hit counts (reading his blog) months ago but this one caught my eye. Which I guess is why Dan posted it, controversial = hit counts. His smug response #8, really meant ‘you don’t subscribe to the paper but you just gave me another hit count, I win’. So here I am posting, making Dan smile. I see through it. I see really sad people. I hope this time I can stay away for good.
As a Christian I could go through the Bible and pick and choose verses that sound ridiculous..ALONE!
Numbers 31: 17-18 –the whole chapter – God has to “clean house” when people don’t obey. America is next.
@5 Well stated Daniel. I’m glad that you approached your comments in the manner you did. I like people who believe in a really BIG God that is beyond our ability to comprehend. I don’t believe that personally, but I much prefer it to people to try to squish God into a box. However, why is it so horrible for Dan to post this guest post? You should write a missive about why the prayer should be allowed and submit it to Dan to post. Oh right, you actually UNDERSTAND the separation of church and state. Woohoo! So what is your issue? The secondary argument about the Bible and what it says? Yeah, to me that is a totally secondary and unimportant part of the post which should’ve been about the bottom line. But that’s just my opinion.
Let me preface my remarks by saying I am an agnostic, I respect George Carlin’s discourse on this subject too much to be otherwise.
Thomas Paine was indeed brilliant, I am still waiting on his Age of Reason to commence.
I still believe, if God does indeed exist, that the biggest mistake ever made was letting us primitives know of his existence. Religion has become a curse on mankind and the source of the very evil it pretends to abate.
I think the Eagles song “The Last Resort” sums it up nicely.
____
“We satisfy our endless needs
and justify our bloody deeds,
in the name of destiny and the name
of God”
–
“And you can see them there,
On Sunday morning
They stand up and sing about
what it’s like up there
They called it paradise,
I don’t know why
You call someplace paradise,
kiss it goodbye”
I admire his courage in putting his name on this. I agree with a lot of it….certainly that the public realm should be kept free of religion -ALL RELIGION – and it’s inevitable bigotries.
Whichever Bible thumper ostentatiously went on and on about how this is wasted space in the paper…newsflash, genius, this is a blog. Not the paper. Although that they put that driveling tripe from Tom Taylor in the paper yesterday WAS somewhat troubling.
“Prime example of how one takes out only pieces of the Bible and spins it to satisfy themselves.”
How beautifully ironic…because we never hear the gay-and-woman-hating “Christian” right pluck out phrases to drive their own agenda of division and intolerance. There is no more “agenda driven” group in this country than the Xian Right.
Hey #7 Pistol Pete, funny thing about the Romans is they were doing fine under the pagans. They only started to decline once they adopted Christianity as the state religion. Interesting, huh?
Thanks, Miriam. I believe you got it exactly right. You can believe what you want, and the government shall not stop you. Neither shall you espouse a particular faith IN THE NAME OF THE GIVERNMENT. Pretty simple, if you ask me.
I’m starting to understand some of the repetitive drive-by postings from Henry and Bob H…it seems like a lot of the same things get recycled and re-hashed several times over. This is another one of them that seems like it’s been done here to death. Carry on, I guess. But this will probably drive a lot of comments, which I suppose is the point.
I subscribe to the paper, and I’m all for First Amendment rights. But it’s sad that the author has made this his mission in life. What a miserable existence he must lead, and how he must have been tortured, bullied, or abused at some former point in time.
Sure, there are hypocrites who call themselves Christians. Always have been. Same with other religions. But the same goes with so-called Atheists who celebrate Christian holidays, even in a secular way. If your office closes on Christmas and you take the day off to spend time with your family, you’re celebrating the birth of Christ whether you intend to or not. Get over yourself, and perhaps seek some counseling to work through whatever pain you are obviously carrying with you.
“Boy those Romans sure thought they had it all together ..didn’t they?”
Pete… you do know that Rome fell after it became a Christianized culture, right?
RP, There are no true Athiests, only Agnostic
Athiests can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, which means that God could exist to them but they choose not to believe it…That makes them Agnostic
I hate the Captcha. Enough said.
@25 – RP, I don’t feel that it’s a poor mission in life to stand up for the principles this nation was founded on. That’s what the military (supposedly) does, and the judiciary (theoretically), right?
That said, I agree with Other John. The title on this one is just silly. The post should’ve been about the meetings and not some pointless argument about the Bible. Truly about volume of comments rather than the quality of the discourse…for sure.
RP, that’s like saying if you take weekends off and enjoy job benefits like health insurance and paid vacation, you’re tacitly endorsing labor unions and a socialist agenda. Because every single thing we have in the way of employment rights and perqs were gotten through unions and union agitation, whether you work in a union shop or not. Don’t get me started on taking Labor Day off.
Mr. Gresham,
You free to believe whatever you want. However, there will come a time when we will be called to account for our lives. I’d suggest that you read the entire Bible in context (if you haven’t already). Pray for God to open your eyes to understand and see.
The scriptures you point to is hard, for sure and can be confusing and counter-intuitive, but it is the word of God none the less. God is JUST and HOLY. It’s easy to forget that in our rugged individualistic culture where I want God to be my “buddy” and personal “genie” to “help” me when I can’t do it with my own efforts.
As much as I think I understand the word of God, ultimately, I know very little beyond what is written and what was lived in the life of Jesus Christ. Fully understanding God isn’t possible, anymore than an ant can understand our motives and environment.
Jesus is the word made flesh. He died for ALL of the world (not just Conservative American evangelicals).
Look at Jesus’ life and his words, Dave. For me, its the easiest way to decipher what God desires in us.
Christ-followers KNOW we are hypocrites. We know that we CAN’T do what is asked of us. I, personally, know that I cannot fulfill the great commandment from Luke 10 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.” I WANT to…and I try very hard, but it is not in me to fulfill it. Sin is a human condition.
THAT is precisely why I NEED a Savior in Jesus Christ.
Even our best, most noble works are like “dirty rags” when it comes to earning us a place in heaven, they’re useless and good for nothing. They’re certainly not enough to bring us into a right relationship with God…for that, we need Christ.
“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”
Isaiah 64:6
I appreciate your thoughts and dialogue on the topic. It’s good to discuss these things.
I have been trying to post something but keep getting a “Captcha” error. Is there a limit as to the length of the comment?
RP
Huh? I am not Irish, but I go to the St. Patrick’s Day parade. Am I a hypocrite for that?
You write that Mr. Grisham has anger issues. I don’t detect much anger in his writing, but I do in yours, and others who are so quick to criticize him.
The principle Mr. Gresham writes about here protects you. You are free to worship however you wish (or not). The government cannot stop you from the free practice of those beliefs. At the same time the government has to stay out of the religion business. Government agents, when they are speaking on behalf of that government, cannot espouse any particular religion. It’s a principle we should all abide by.
Dave Gresham proves that the anger and judgement that drives Christians to spew hate is the core reason that prayer in a public government meeting is wrong (and hypocrisy in action). Why is his commentary hate and your comments not? Why is his commentary hurtful and yours not? At least his has a Constitutional basis, yours is just hate, judgment and abuse of the book you claim to live by and God whom you claim to love.
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.”
Matthew 6:1
and 5-8
“5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.”
Our book tells us what to do and how to do it.
What I find fascinating about the bible, and Christianity in general, is that most of those stories are not new. Noah and the flood?… not new. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh. The story of baby Moses? Not new… Read the myth of Sargon, who was placed in a reed basket and sent down the river by his mother. He was rescued by Aqqi, who then adopted him as his own son.
The creation and fall of man is nothing new either… Take this passage from a Polynesian text written thousands of years before the bible: “After Taarao had formed the world, he created man out of anea, red earth, which was also the food of man until bread was made. Taarao one day called for the man by name. When he came, he caused him to fall asleep, and while he slept, he took out one of his ivi, or bones, and with it made a woman, whom he gave to the man as his wife, and they became the progenitors of mankind. The woman s name was 7vv, which signifies a bone.”
My very favorite story is the one of the birth of Jesus. This same story has been around for thousands of years, in many other faiths. In fact, miraculous births were accepted by the ancients as a way to distinguish those who had set themselves apart from others by bestowing upon them this supernatural lineage. Some examples are:
In India, the story of Heri Crishna, which can be found in the Mahdrbharata, an Indian epic poem, written about the sixth century B. C.
The story of Buddha: When Buddha was about to descend from heaven, to be born into the world, the angels in heaven, calling to the inhabitants of the earth, said :”Ye mortals! adorn your earth! for Bodhisatwa, the great Mahasatwa, not long hence shall descend from Tusita to be born amongst you! make ready and prepare! Buddha is about to descend and be born. The womb that bears a Buddha is like a casket in which a relic is placed ; no other being can be conceived in the same receptacle ; the usual secretions are not formed ; and from the time of conception, Maha-maya was free from passion, and lived in the strictest continence.”
The Siamese had a Virgin-born God and Saviour whom they called Codom. His mother, a beautiful young virgin, wandered into the forest. While she was in prayer, she was impregnated by the sunbeams. She traveled to the borders of a lake, between Siam and Cambodia, where she was “delivered of a heavenly boy” which she placed within the folds of a lotus, that opened to receive him. When the boy grew up, he became a prodigy of wisdom, performed miracles, etc…
There is the legend of Fo-hi, in China: “Three nymphs came down from heaven to wash themselves in a river; but scarce had they got there before the herb lotus appeared on one of their garments, with its coral fruit upon it. They could not imagine whence it proceeded, and one was tempted to taste it, whereby she became pregnant and was delivered of a boy, who afterwards became a great man, a founder of religion, a conqueror, and legislator.”
Lao-kiun, sometimes called Lao-tsze, who is said to have been born in the third year of the emperor Ting-wang, of the Chow dynasty (604 B. c.), was another miraculously-born man. He acquired great reputation for sanctity, and marvelous stories were told of his birth. It was said that he had existed from all eternity; that he had descended on earth and was born of a virgin, black in complexion, described ” marvelous and beautiful as jasper. Splendid temples were erected to him, and he was worshiped as a god.”
Yu was another virgin-born Chinese sage.
There is also Hau-ki
And Pythagorus, born about 570 B.C. His mother is said to have become impregnated through a spectre, or Holy Ghost. His foster-father was also informed that his wife should bring forth a son, who should be a benefactor to mankind.
And the entire Jesus story can also be read in the Quran. His name was Isa and he was born to virgin Maryam. Surah 3:45-47 and Surah 19:16-22
There are hundreds more of these mythological stories that have been passed down through the ages as true. Many religions have them. Why is it that Christians don’t acknowledge that Jesus was not the first and only virgin birth or the first heralded as the Son of God? What does that mean? It means to me that Christianity really doesn’t have anything so unique as to set it apart from many other religions.
Where does the constitution say there is a separation of church and state? Mr. Gresham, have you read the constitution or the bill of rights?
I’m not clear that Mr. Gresham is an atheist? Or does he just not believe in the Bible as some do?
@27 Pistol Pete, you are incorrect. Agnostics simply admit that they do not know one way or the other. I am agnostic. Honestly, I’ve always found it a bit silly to embrace atheism. I find myself on more honest ground when I admit that I have no idea. I suspect some stuff and I lean towards disbelief….but ultimately, no clue. Agnostic.
@Lynda K – That is quite a missive! I enjoyed it.
The Bible is not a “Catholic book” but it was the rulers of the Catholic Church that compiled, reviewed, translated and put together the books that make the Bible. It cannot be ignored that these rulers, much like the Pharisees who ruled in the time of Jesus, brokered their own deals and decided on what was included, what was “Divine” and “inspired” and what would be excluded, considered not “Divine” or “inspired”. ANYONE who forgets or ignores that, does so at their own peril IMO.
One of the reasons that the early Jewish faith did not translate the Torah (which is only a few books of the Bible) was their fear of the meaning being lost in translation. The reason the Qur’an was to be memorized and recited was to maintain the purity of the story as well.
Anyone not smart enough to not fully trust their souls and their relationship with God to what early Catholic rulers decided is suspicious to me.
If Paul Harvey taught you nothing else, he should have taught you the importance of “the rest of the story”.
Switch to Google Chrome as your browser and you only have to hit the back button when the CAPTCHA gremlin strikes! You will come to love it, I promise!
Well done Lynda K!!
Lake Claytor @30
You summed up what we all should be saying.
Ephesians 4:26 ‘Be angry, but sin not…’
#34 Lynda K, I guess god’s been dictating stories to men of various religions to write down for many centuries. Maybe he/she ran out of new stories and had to start repeating.
BTW, the CAPTCHA things has become an enormous pain for me, particularly when I’m on a Mac. At least 1/3 of the time it tells me I put in the wrong code (not true) and when that happens I have to copy, get out of the thread, and then go back in.
Like mixing religion and government?
Are you in agreement with, “respecting religions and religious symbols does not contradict international conventions. “Freedom of expression does not mean defaming or offending….”
http://tinyurl.com/6u5lotj
Comment by Lynda K — May 4, 2012 @ 11:22 am
The CATTCHA code seem particularly squirrelly today.
As to time limits, it certainty seems to. In fact, it seems as if the clock starts when one opens the thread or maybe opens the blog.
What I do is save what I have typed to the clipboard (Ctrl a then Ctrl c on a PC).
That way when it bounces one I can just back click to the thread and Ctrl p the saved typing in the block and try again.
Man,
Another religion thread. My favorite post so far..
Hat’s off to RP for best logical fallacy, it’s still early though..
“If your office closes on Christmas and you take the day off to spend time with your family, you’re celebrating the birth of Christ whether you intend to or not. ”
If my cat has kittens in our oven, are they biscuits?
Dude, hate to break it to you, but sometimes a day off from work is just a day off from work.
Jesus died for all of us and was resurrected. Pretty unique to me.
Lynda K
And of course Athena sprang from the forehead of Zeus. That’s a nice trick.
#18 Here is once again a good example how some of you folks think. Now the ever vengeful god has to clean house because America is going downhill. (the black dude is in power)
Makes one wonder where that cleaning house god was when junior Bush was in power. Boy did we need some house cleaning.
But getting back to your comment, if god did try to “clean house” and attack American wouldn’t that make him a terrorist?
All who are having problems with CAPTCHA:
Roanoke.com has been informed of this problem and is looking into it.
–dan
I dont know about Dan..
But I pray.
I pray every day that people
will think rationally and not toss
their fate to the spaghetti monster.
If you dont understand it dont give up
and look at the sky.
Try harder…stop looking at he sky and try harder..
or start listening to people that dont get all their messages
in the nuances of the clouds.
Sounds like Joe’s solution is hallucinogens.
I guess it is in the same place as “corporations are people my friend”, Bob H. Either you see it, or you don’t. I don’t see the Constitution granting some rights to only some citizens either, but many assure me “it’s in there”.
If I am pressed, I suppose that: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion… which clearly and absolutely means they are two separate things to most of us. Of course, if you take “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state…” out of the 2nd Amendment, I can see where you would take the first clause out of the 1st Amendment too. Any more that you revised and ignore parts of?
In reference to the comment by RP about taking time off for Christmas, I have no choice in the matter. My company closes for the day, and prohibits me from working or charging time on Christmas day. For past companies I’ve worked for, I have worked on Christmas day though, and other observed holidays as well. I honestly like that, the office is quiet and the phone doesn’t ring.
Lake Claytor writes: “Jesus died for all of us and was resurrected. Pretty unique to me.”
What about the other resurrection stories? A few of those are:
Mithras: He lived as long ago as 1400 BC. He is purported to have been born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave and attended by shepherds, was a great traveling preacher, had 12 followers, promised his followers immortality, sacrificed himself as the ‘great bull of the sun’ for world peace, had been buried in a tomb and rose again in 3 days. He was called the ‘Good Shepherd’, the ‘word’, the ‘redeemer’, and identified himself with both the lamb and the lion.
Osiris: Probably one of the most well known ‘resurrection’ stories comes from actions from the ancient Egyptian god Isis. Osiris, Isis’ brother/husband, was killed by his evil brother Set and eventually cut into 14 pieces and scattered throughout Egypt. The distraught god Isis searched and found the body pieces, brought them together and brought him back to life. This occurred many years before Christianity.
Apollonius of Tyana: In a city south of modern day Turkey, Apollonius is purported to have lived, had followers (disciples), performed miracles, died, and then was seen after his death. He supposedly lived in the first century AD, at the same time as Jesus of Nazareth.
Lake Claytor, you and Pistol Pete “know enough” to question other’s belief, judge their faith, morals and integrity though don’t you? Those that disagree with you politically that is, we all know you ignore the egregious examples of those who agree with you.
Lake@47
“esus died for all of us and was resurrected. Pretty unique to me.”
Scapegoating is not unique.
It’s not different than throwing your sins to a sacrificial goat or calf, a practice well established in many cultures and perfectly compatible with biblical events. Jesus is presented as scapegoat for humanity. But certainly not for me. so don’t include me in the club.
I don’t believe that the torture and killing of anyone can atone for that for which I am responsible.
Lynda K. @ #34: Post Of The Day!!!
Blasphemy. Mark 3:28-30. I’ll let the word of God speak for it self.
All that CAPTCHA trouble…mere coincidence or an act of God? The Lord truly works in mysterious ways sometimes…..maybe He’s read enough blasphemy for one day.
I know Dave, not very well, but I know him. I’m fairly sure he hasn’t devoted his entire life to this. Get over it. Separation of church and state-should be easy enough to comprehend right? If I go to a city council meeting, I don’t want prayers shoved down my throat, just like when I sent my son to school in a few years, I don’t want him forced in to saying the pledge of allegiance. (the one nation, under GOD part) If I’m there, I’m there for business. I see no reason to open or close with prayer. You want to pray, do it at home, in your car, go to church, I don’t care, but don’t waste other people’s time with it.
Dave, glad to have met you my friend, and I’m proud of you for standing up for this.
BobH,
Welcome back!
http://www.livescience.com/3479-resurrection-history-myths.html
Ancient accounts tell of an important figure whose birth would be heralded by a star in the heavens, a god who would later judge the dead. He would be murdered in a betrayal by one close to him, his body hidden away — though not for long, as he would return in a miraculous resurrection to begin an eternal reign in heaven.
To his legions of followers, he (and his resurrection) came to symbolize the promise of eternal life.
The figure, Osiris, was the supreme god in ancient Egypt, only one of many pagan gods worshipped thousands of years before the birth of Jesus. Indeed, though Jesus is currently the best-known example of a resurrected figure, he is far from the only one.”
There are many cultures that have resurrection as part of their mythologies. It’s like the Ark and the immaculate conception….these are recurring themes.
#34 That was very one! It sounds like you have read Joseph Campbell which for me was a door to look at religions of the world.
According to Matthew, there were other people resurrected when Jesus was resurrected.
Matthew 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Pistol Pete:
27.”RP, There are no true Athiests, only Agnostic
Athiests can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, which means that God could exist to them but they choose not to believe it…That makes them Agnostic”
Of course you are coming from the presumption that God must exist. It could be said that there are no true atheists just like there are no true children or followers of God. If you can prove God does exixt, I can just as certainly prove he (or she) does not. You first.
Lynda, is there any corroborating historical or archeological evidence for them? just curious.
There is for Jesus.
—-
As for the rest. As I said before, trying to understand God is silly, we aren’t capable of anything close to it.
Saying things like “If God was really God then He’d do such and such” is sorta silly as well.
We are creating a god in OUR image when we do this.
#59 I think that if god were even paying any attention to what you consider blasphemy on this little tiny blog, he/she/it would have a MUCH more effective way of dealing with it than screwing up the CAPTCHA every now and then.
Lake Claytor writes: “Lynda, is there any corroborating historical or archeological evidence for them? just curious.”
As much as there is for Jesus Christ… unless, of course, there has been a new DNA test done that corroborates that he is the one and only Son of God.
There is not one- ONE – contemporaneous account of the Resurrection outside of the heavily edited Council of Nicea version of the New Testament. You’d think that someone coming back from the dead would have been big news, even back then. Yet…it’s nowhere to be found. And there’s zero archeological evidence of it, obviously.
I’m all about people enjoying their “faith”, but understand that BY DEFINITION “faith” implies a lack of proof or evidence. Please don’t claim that you have faith then try to actually prove your position. Once you try to prove it, you’ve opened the door to it being questioned as closely as, say…climate change.
“trying to understand God is silly, we aren’t capable of anything close to it.”
This is the essential element that all controlling religions need to keep the masses under their thumbs.
Call me nutty, but I don’t believe that either snakes or bushes aflame can speak.
#68: Lynda K, You have entered a very rough spot for Lake Claytor, when you suggest that DNA corroborates anything. That DNA has proven that we are ALL the children of the same Creation event is something LC vigorously denies. But his “proof” of that denial is as insubstantial as his archeological “proof” of Jesus’ historicity.
#66 LC posted, “is there any corroborating historical or archeological evidence for them? just curious. There is for Jesus.”
Could you provide the historical documents which is evidence of Jesus? or archeological evidence via some links?
Other than the bible, there is no historical documents of Jesus’ life – or death. The Romans were meticulous record keepers – and yet no historical document exists for the period of Pontius Pilate mentioning a man named Jesus. The bible is not a historical document – not even done in chronological order, and written by many years after the events. I am an avid reader of archaeological news and discoveries, but I must have missed the find on a historical Jesus.
BTW, in the earliest Christian period, “pagans” viewed Jews and Christians as atheists for worshipping a singular god, while denying everyone else’s . Monotheism was the exception at the time, not the rule. The first use of the term “pagan’ [pagani] appeared in the 4th century in Christian inscriptions…meaning those who were unbaptized as soldiers of Christ…
As you can see over the millennium, these terms have evolved into other meanings..
This is the essential element that all controlling religions need to keep the masses under their thumbs.
Who cares or profits if you follow a religious faith, John Wilburn? Nobody. People are free to do it or not. Those who do find it helps them live better. Those who don’t vote Democrat.
There is no more “agenda driven” group in this country than the Xian Right.
The ironic thing is it’s only the godless left that tries to force it’s agenda on everybody. Forced participation in 0bamacare, forced partipation in abortion funding, religions forced to provide birth control against their faith, forced judicial enforcement of radical leftwing issues that never wins at the ballot box.
Always a couple of steps away from the USSR. That’s you people’s wet dream
#74 “Who cares or profits if you follow a religious faith, John Wilburn?”
Why the Catholic Church has profited ENORMOUSLY from people following its faith, szuie. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have made TONS of cash from people following their faith. And so on and so on.
Good god that was easy. Talk about your softballs.
gdad is right. Religion has made more money and started more wars than anything else on earth.
Now lay your hands on your computer screen and send me $5.
“Who cares or profits if you follow a religious faith, John Wilburn? Nobody. People are free to do it or not. Those who do find it helps them live better. Those who don’t vote Democrat.”
The passers of the plate profit, of course! I agree that people are free to follow a faith or not, but I contend that my NOT following a faith helps me to live better. Faith does not necessarily help anyone live better and we all know it hurts a lot of people whose logic and reason has been completely hijacked by their faith. I don’t think that Democrat is the party of the faithless, but certainly a lot of Democrats have a version of faith that better fits their hypocritical lifestyles. Republicans to a slightly lesser extent. Having no faith to answer to or be afraid of allows me to answer this very honestly. That’s a freedom that the right-wing religious cannot know.
JW,
Now wait just a minute: did you say that religious Dems are bigger hypocrites than religious Repubs?
“The ironic thing is it’s only the godless left that tries to force it’s agenda on everybody”
(LOUD BUZZER SOUND!!!) No, the “Godly” right tries to cram its moral ideals on all of society (e.g. pre-abortion ultrasound fearmongering). The left tries to cram its emotionsl hang-ups on all of us (e.g. gun control).
Lynda K:
77.”gdad is right. Religion has made more money and started more wars than anything else on earth.
Now lay your hands on your computer screen and send me $5.”
Absolutely. For Suzie’s “LOVE OFFERING” or “GIFT” or “SEED” or “VOW” of $5, does she get a prayer cloth, holy water, or motivational tape (read marketing tape)?
“Now wait just a minute: did you say that religious Dems are bigger hypocrites than religious Repubs?”
Yes, but not by any landslide. I see the Democrats breaking more religious rules and twisting the scriptures to accomodate, where the Republicans just keep their religious shortcomings hidden better. Either way, they both want fashionable faiths by and large and neither are winners in my book.
Religion, faith and values are very personal things. It is possible to have a strong set of personal values without religion or faith. And it is possible to have strong religious beliefs, and a strong faith but have personal values that are not consistent with the real teachings of ones religion or faith. No matter where you or I fit on that continuum, it is still a PERSONAL thing IMO. And I believe the guarantees in our Constitution are there for just that reason. Any of you (or I) have the right to believe as we wish. We do not have the right to presuppose that
our religion, our faith, or our values should be imposed on anyone else
or enshrined in any official position by any government entity. Pray in private, pray with your family in your home, pray in your church, pray in your front yard if you wish. Believe what you want. That is your right and there is no one in this country trying to take that right away from you. But keep it there and not in the public sphere.
Clapton is God.
Why the Catholic Church has profited ENORMOUSLY from people following its faith, szuie. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have made TONS of cash from people following their faith. And so on and so on.
Good god that was easy. Talk about your softballs.
No money is required of anyone to be a member of the Catholic Church or any other Christian Church that I know of. So again, who necessarilly profits if you decide to follow the tenets of a religious? Nobody.
Unlike the church of liberalism which extorts money from the population, Christian religions do not.
Absolutely. For Suzie’s “LOVE OFFERING” or “GIFT” or “SEED” or “VOW” of $5, does she get a prayer cloth, holy water, or motivational tape (read marketing tape)?
I think I see John Wilburn’s problem. He thinks religion is the stuff he saw on TV from the 70s and 80s.
There have been some television “ministries” that are not of God, or the bible, or anything religious, that’s true. Some TV people have been hucksters using religion, and their programs have little to do with Christianity.
Real churches that are the vast majority do not operate this way.
@84
“Real churches that are the vast majority do not operate this way.”
The “no true Scotsman fallacy”…
Everyone of those dingbat TV ministries operates with the same authority as every other church. They claim have some insight, wisdom or authority from god from which they operate. The Catholic church is no different, and has extracted incredible sums of money over long periods of time for it’s gilded cathedrals. Personally, I don’t see much difference between the TV ministries you deride as “no real church”, and the Catholic church. I mean with Peter Popov, you at least get a little tube of miracle spring water for your donation. For centuries the Catholic church sold indulgences with invisible promises of salvation. The entire body of impressive church architecture of Europe was built with money from such schemes. What’s the difference? And if the Catholic church eventually decided that selling indulgences was an unethical practice, they really do have a hard time figuring out how things work between here and the spirit world.
#83 You asked who cares or profits if John W follows a religion. I pointed out that many denominations have profited enormously. And some denominations put the squeeze on followers big time, including the Catholic Church.
In addition, many, many Christians do indeed care whether or not you follow. Good lord, some missionaries practically force people to convert. Or are you saying that Catholics who have done this in the past weren’t real Christians, they were hucksters?
I’m right. You’re wrong.
For those so distraught with our separation of faith and state, here’s a home for you:
http://tinyurl.com/cvczlv9
**
Indonesia’s atheists face battle for religious freedom
Alex Aan faces jail for posting ‘God doesn’t exist’ on Facebook, renewing fears for atheists in the world’s most populous Muslim country
When Alex Aan picked up a copy of Karen Armstrong’s Holy War from his local library in west Sumatra in 2005, he had little inkling of his own religious battle to come. But after posting “God doesn’t exist” on Facebook, the soft-spoken civil servant, 30, faces up to 11 years in jail for what is considered blasphemy in Indonesia.
His case has stoked a debate in the world’s most populous Muslim nation, whose 240 million citizens are technically guaranteed freedom of religion but protected by law only if they believe in one of six credos: Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Hinduism. Those who question any of those face five years in prison for “insulting a major religion”, plus an additional six years if they use the internet to spread such “blasphemy” to others.
SNIP
**
I find it strange that many folk who express fear of Sharia influence on topics addressed by secular law, including crime, politics and economics, as well as personal matters here in the US tend to also champion the same sort of influence of their own brand of absolutism.
Dave Hicks at 12:44pm on the 4th…..
That was quite an intereting article you directed us to….but a favor I would like to ask you,…. let me see if I “get this straight”…..
In Kuwait..the religious leaders got together and presented a proposition to the Government that they want made into LAW….and the Government. said…”Yea, we see no problem with that.”
The LAW that the Religious Leaders want imposed is:
ANY Muslim who “disrespects” Allah, Mohammed, or any other prophet, or their wives, or the Koran (since I can’t remember how to spell it the “official” way.)etc..that crime is punishable by DEATH..unless they recant and repent. Then they get “no more than 5 years” in jail…and/or pay a hefty fine.
Any NON-Muslim who does the same gets 10 years in prison…unless they repent and recant..in which case they too, get up to 5 years in jail/or prison and/or the fine.
Is this the way that YOU interpret it also?
Can I ask another few questions?
Aren’t you glad you live in America?
What are the athiests, agnostics or whatever feeling “persecuted” about?
Where is “tolerance” in the Muslim religion?
Don’t you think we should do all in our power to keep these “religious nuts” as far away from any policy-making in OUR Country as we possibly CAN!!??
“Don’t you think we should do all in our power to keep these “religious nuts” as far away from any policy-making in OUR Country as we possibly CAN!!??”
Yes Sharon N!!!???,
I’ll go one step more and say it’s a good idea to keep all religious nuts away from policy making decisions. For instance, I don’t think Christian end times prophecy has any credible role in forming governmental policy decisions toward the State of Israel. Yet I bet you could find more than few members of Congress whose ideas on Israel’s uniqueness are based on bogus prophecy. Former house majority leader Tom Delay come immediately to mind.
You know, as a Christian…I don’t get caught up in arguing the “nuances” of different “Denominations” of Christianity..and there are differences.
Take, for example, Jehovah’s witnesses….I am not a Jehovah’s witness, don’t agree with their teachings, I’m not a Catholic, don’t agree with all that they teach…there is someone NOW who I am tossing back and forth the idea of whether God chooses people, or people choose God.
We are going to have our differences…I am not the type to try and argue a Jehovah’s witness out of their beliefs and into mine..I think people can still serve God, and go to Heaven, even of vastly different denominations.
My “point” is..at no time do I ever feel like a Jehovah’s witness, for example, is judging me or pressuring me for anything, I think of their “motivation”..When they show up at my door and ask me…”Do you know how to get to Heaven?”, I say “yes, I do, I’m not a Jehovah’s witness but I thank you for having enough “concern for my soul” to stop by.
When a “religious person” asks you about being “saved”..they are showing concern for your Soul, they are not trying to challenge your beliefs or disbeliefs. If you say to a Jehovah’s Witness, for example, I don’t believe in God, but thank you for being concerned for my Soul..their answer will most likely be..”I’ll pray for you”…and you can say “Yea, you do that Sister, or Brother” with all the sarcasm you want…but that is the end of it.
So, let’s consider “motivation”…a Christian is motivated by love and concern for your Soul…they are not there to “judge” you, if you have a guilty conscience about something that is YOUR problem.
What motivates an atheist to constantly try to “preach” to Christians that there is no God?
Who is “judging” and ridiculing WHOM? Who are the “persecuters” here?
“I’ll go one step more and say it’s a good idea to keep all religious nuts away from policy making decisions. For instance, I don’t think Christian end times prophecy has any credible role in forming governmental policy decisions toward the State of Israel.”
AMEN x 3
Agreed Mike Scott!! We find so many different Nuances in the Bible that can be interpreted different ways…who is to say exactly WHAT God meant when He said something about “standing with” or “going against” His “people”.
And really, what constitutes “going against” or “standing with”? Telling Isreal that we will stand by them, as long as they follow Our guidlines and timetable, otherwise we will impose sanctions?…or standing aside and letting them do what they feel they need to do?
Seriously SharonN!!!????
Athiests preaching? Persecution? Please..
Never, in 53 years of life do I recall an atheist standing on my front porch to tell me that my belief system was wrong. Never been approached by an atheist in an airport, or on a street corner or asked to contribute to an atheist mission in Uganda to convert Ugandans to non belief.
There is no atheist organization preaching anything. Take a look at your dish network or cable TV listings and find one show, just one show out of what must be hundreds if not thousands, which admonishes viewers to give up their personal beliefs to become an atheist.
Now, go through the same listings and find the dozens of shows that provide religious messages.
The reason why you see more nonbelievers than ever before is because there is a World Wide Web now and it’s not part of the media that has traditionally quashed subject matter that doesn’t fit within the public’s general sensibilities. Turns out that there are many people who question traditional religious teaching, they just never had a convenient way to share ideas. The Web is the worst thing to ever happen to religion.
Sites like this have probably persuaded more than one rational person to reconsider what they had left of their religious belief.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm
It’s long..and it will require you to think…
Yeah… America is a great country. Certainly far better because of its secular respect for all creeds.
#90 Sharon K posted, “You know, as a Christian…I don’t get caught up in arguing the “nuances”
Right you are! Can I hear an Amen?
last post should have been directed to Sharon N
#67 Gdad, even as a believer in the Almighty, far be it from me to judge what is or is not blasphemy…I was merely posing a question to you and your fellow bloggers. Does God sometimes work in small insignificant ways to get folks attention, maybe the folks who need to pay attention the most? It’s amazing sometimes how people who deny His existence and laugh at the possibility that He does proclaim to know His mind and what He may or may not do.
And as far as how He might deal with blasphemers, my faith allows me to believe that in the end He will have a VERY effective way of dealing with them….in His good and perfect time, not ours…I pray He will have mercy on them all….
Comment by Sharon N. — May 5, 2012 @ 3:35 pm
Aren’t I glad I live in America? You bet, I am! Having seen a good part of the world.
Aren’t you glad you live in an America with the freedom to spout off your level of intolerance?
Freedom isn’t free. But don’t worry. Us Marines and other armed services folk (all colors, all ethnic backgrounds, all creeds, atheists, agnostics, etc) have already paid the price for you to act the fool, to spout hate bigotry, prejudice, bias, narrow-mindedness, chauvinism. etc.
You champion your faith’s version of Sharia law influence.
—————————————————————-
Comment by Sharon N. — May 5, 2012 @ 3:35 pm
“Don’t you think we should do all in our power to keep these “religious nuts” as far away from any policy-making in OUR Country as we possibly CAN!!??
—–
Yup. But let be fix that for you, “Don’t you think we should do all in our power to keep the “religious nuts” of all sorts, all colors, all ethnic backgrounds, all creeds, atheists, agnostics, etc) as far away from any policy-making in OUR Country as we possibly CAN — WHENEVER THEY ATTEMPT TO PASS LAWS ENFORCING THEIR THEOLOGY, TRADITIONS, AND VALUES ON OTHERS !!?? [NOTE: that includes issues such as abortion, BTW.]
When are you joining the fight for Freedom of Life, support PP, now that you have signed on to stopping all “Sharia” type influence on topics addressed by secular law, including crime, politics and economics, as well as personal matters here in the US.
I’ll go one step more and say it’s a good idea to keep all religious nuts away from policy making decisions.
Religious leaders are way better than godless ones. I’ve recounted the 100 million people killed in the 20th century at the hands of godless leftwing dictators.
“When a “religious person” asks you about being “saved”..they are showing concern for your Soul, they are not trying to challenge your beliefs or disbeliefs…..
….What motivates an atheist to constantly try to “preach” to Christians that there is no God?”
It is exactly the same motivation for many atheists. The atheist may see someone sadly “lost”, squandering their time, sanity, and quality of life on earth, spending it all on the wishing star of the afterlife. Just as a Christian experiences the feeling of salvation, the atheist experiences a freedom of mind that the Christian cannot know.
“Sharon N. says:
What motivates an atheist to constantly try to “preach” to Christians that there is no God?”
How many atheists have knocked on your door and asked if you believe in atheism? How many tracts have you been given by atheists? How many fake $20 bills have you seen tucked into drink machines, phone booths, etc. that are actually tracts left by atheists? None, I bet. In my experience, atheists generally keep their opinions concerning God to themselves unless directly confronted by a ‘well-meaning’ Christian, either one-on-one, or in a taxpayer-funded public meeting or school. And most atheists I know wouldn’t even care about the Christian prayer at government meetings if other faiths were invited to lead the audience in prayer or to share a inspirational/motivational message. Most atheists I know wouldn’t care about the Ten Commandments being displayed in public schools if other faiths’ teachings were allowed to be displayed.
WOW!!! Tsk, tsk, you get SO offended by tracks left in public? IF you are not interested, leave them alone..Throw them away…but no need to complain about them.
Do some people “protest too much?” ya think? Must be some guilty consciences in here.
Is that your only answer to the questions I asked, Sharon N.?
No. I don’t get offended by tracts left in public. I pick them up and throw them away, like the litter they are.
Now, tell us, how many atheists have knocked on your door to ‘preach’ to you there is no God? I’ve never had one knock on mine. In the last 7 months, I’ve had 5 various ‘evangelicals’ come to visit me and save my soul. They didn’t know me. I didn’t know them. And they all completely ignored the prominently displayed ‘No Solitations’ sign on my front door. So now I’ve added, ‘This includes ALL religious evangelicals of ALL denominations’ to the sign. I felt no need to add, ‘No atheists, either’.
Do you get my point yet?
Dave Hicks…
This response of yours is UNBELIEVABLE to me!!!! Seriously, I am just totally floored!!! How in the HECK can we read the same article and see something so COMPLETELY different in it??? Let me take you by the hand and show you what an AMERICAN reads in this artice…since just trying to guide your thoughts didn’t work.
I look at that article that you posted, and what I saw was…
Wow! Look at those “tolerant Muslims who are very careful to separate “religion and Government”….the Muslim “religious leaders” can get the Government to pass laws that call for the DEATH of Muslims who question or say anything against the Koran….and even Non-belivers, they can be imprisoned simply for disagreeing and speaking out against any aspect of the Muslim “religion”.
My question of “Aren’t you glad you live in America?” was saying ..in other words…Aren’t you glad that in America, Christian leaders CAN’T go to Congress and the President and have them enact a Law that allows for the KILLING of other Christians who question any aspect of God or the Bible….and aren’t you glad that non-believers, like many of you here CAN’T be put in Prison for saying “there is no God”, The Bible is BS” etc…hey in Kuwait..and other Muslim Countries..you can be IMPRISONED (or KILLED) for saying stuff like that.!!!
What are atheists and agnostic feeling persecuted about?..In OTHER WORDS…
As I said above…when in Kuwait, and other MUSLIMS Countries you can be imprisoned ( or killed) for saying things like that, there is nothing you can do about it…it’s the LAW!!!! So, why are you in here crying and whining when Christians disagree with you and defend their positions, but, ya know what? in America, you have the right to disagree with Christians also, and SAY so….without fear of being imprisoned or beaten….NEWS FLASH….THE CONSTITUTION and it’s Freedom of Religion Clause is designed to PROTECT YOU too!!!
What tolerance do you see in the “Muslim religion”?..based on the above, and the fact that they are doing all they can to kill “infidels” in every Country..I think that pretty much speaks for itself..if you want to REALLY see how intolerant they are to gays etc..just read the Koran..be thankful ( yes be thankful…to God, your lucky stars, your own “logical” butt, I don’t care which) but be thankful that CHRISTIANS are taught in the BIBLE to “Hate the sin, but LOVE the sinner” because we are ALL sinners, and not hypocritically (since they like to defile little boys) taught in the Koran that gays should be executed.
And yes, I said it before and I will say it again…we need to do all we can to keep these crazy “religious nuts” out of our Country, out of our Courts, out of our Government. They don’t stand for ANYTHING that is tolerant, peaceful, or American…and I damned sure don’t want their influence in our lawmaking, our Court precedents or anything ELSE that might sway “policy” in our Country…and if you’d open your eyes, neither would YOU.
You want to see what it’s like to share “space” with Muslims..check out some videos from Dearborn,Michigan. OR, have you ever seen the pics of the “Muslim Prayer time” in New York City….you don’t want Christians to even MENTION the word “God” in Public..why in the heck aren’t you saying anything about Muslim blocking TRAFFIC on busy New York Streets while they kneel on their little prayer rugs, with their butts up in the air, face Mecca and pray. Huh? We don’t tolerate AMERICANS running around in a “mask” hiding their faces and their identity, and yet we allow Muslims to do that. We “allow” Muslims to burn and desecrate our Bibles, yet we can’t apologize enough to then if someone should GASP burn a Koran so those peaceful, tolerant Muslims won’t throw a hissy fit and start killing people. We’ve given up our right to fly in the Country without having to give up our dignity to do so because of MUSLIMS.
Why is it that you are so quick to “condemn” your “fellow American” Christians and don’t “call out” the “in your face” intolerant, perverted, violent Muslim religion? Are you cowards? Is it because we Christians are taught to “Turn the other cheek” and the Muslims use violence to get their way? What is it?
What did you “see” when you read the article, Dave Hicks? “Look People..this is how intolerant Christians are!! This what they want to do to us!!” Is that what you “saw” Dave Hicks?
Well, there, there Cupcake, rest easy….we couldn’t do that even if we WANTED to, which we don’t.
Frankly, I am quite offended that your would use our AMERICAN Veterans to defend your twisted UNAMERICAN ideas. You see, although not a “veteran myself”..I come from a LONG LINE of veterans, back to the Revolutionary War. The Veterans in MY Family including the one in my family today…and the other AMERICAN loving veterans( yea, I know all colors and creeds, but not Muslims though, they are not loyal to America unless they have renounced their religion) are not laying their lives on the line so you lazy, brainwashed, State Conditioned Liberals can throw away all that they have been fighting for. American veteran’s took an oath to “defend and protect the Constitution of the United States of America from all enemies foreign and domestic…” You should be THANKFUL that they did promise to defend that Constitution and not be so quick to throw it away and call it irrelevant…because that same Constitution that protects ME..protects YOU also. And although it truly pains me to say it..you can also be thankful that many of our troops TODAY seem to have forgotten, or don’t feel quite as loyal to that Oath, because I’m pretty sure that our Veterans of the past wouldn’t be so slow to recognize the “domestic enemies” of the Constitution that we have in our midst.
God works in mysterious ways, Lucifer works in devious ways.
Sharon, what you have to understand here is that when we talk about keeping the religious nutters our of the public realm, the Christian nutters are tossed in the mix along with those of other “lesser” religions.
Religion has no place in public policy making. Of any stripe.
Since we’re talking about church and state here, I’m sure it’s heartwarming Doug Domenech, state secretary of natural resources, is concerned that churches might get taken in by too much or the wrong kind of environmentalism:
“I though there was some value in talking to pastors about about environmental issues. They may not recognize when there is an effort to infiltrate the churches with environmental thinking.” (Christina Nuckols column today for full context)
What a wingnut. (I posted this on another thread as well but it seems to fit in both areas.)
#101 “WOW!!! Tsk, tsk, you get SO offended by tracks left in public?”
Waiting for suzie the spelling police to show up and charge you a nickel. Where is she?
mattyr writes: “God works in mysterious ways, Lucifer works in devious ways.”
Sounds like yet another way to release one’s self from responsibility of one’s own actions… Blame it on the devil.
For centuries the Catholic church sold indulgences with invisible promises of salvation. The entire body of impressive church architecture of Europe was built with money from such schemes. What’s the difference? And if the Catholic church eventually decided that selling indulgences was an unethical practice, they really do have a hard time figuring out how things work between here and the spirit world.
If you notice, atheists like Mike Scott have to go back hundreds of years to talk about
Crusades or the selling of indulgences. Yes, the Church like all organzations can have bad people who do bad things from time to time.
The fact remains, the church will not turn anyone away regardless of their financial status. In fact, the Catholic Church does more for the world’s poor than any other organization, public or private. Catholic clergy take a vow of poverty, and that’s how they live. That’s a far cry from some television ‘miinisters’ of the past who lived in posh elegance and do mostly fundraising on the air and very little spiritual teaching.
I’ve yet to see groups of atheists at disaster sites or helping the poor, BTW. All atheists are good at, it seems, is taking shots at folks who try to live according to a set of principles, There were dozens of church groups helping out in New Orleans in 2005 for example. Where were the busloads of atheists at Katrina?
Well, Dave Hicks
I am glad that we now all know that you are not an AMERICAN. And that your ideas are totally unAMERICAN. And that “we the people” (of course meaning the fundamentalists and right wing nuts) have finally stood up to your communistic, radical Islamic, atheistic, gay loving, climate bashing,
scientific secularism. You even pretend to believe in 2A rights just to try to fool people into thinking you’re not a rotten socialist.Be afraid. Be very afraid. “we the poeple” are coming for you and it won’t be pretty.
We are going to take down that Kenyan born impostor in the White House, deport those 11 million good for nothing Mexicans that are taking all our jobs, do away with the federal govt. and save our country from the 99%.
Hail to the wealthy for they are the children of God!
Thanks to most of you who offered your support for my efforts to keep Church and State separate – for the protection of both.
The hateful or ignorant replies carry their own antidote, and therefore need no reply. However, I will address the title of the piece, which bothered a couple of readers.
I labeled it boldly to challenge the blindly religious. After failing to get Franklin County to honor the Constitution and First Amendment (we talked privately), I took the matter public and flat out challenged them as to the authenticity of claiming the Bible was the word of God – hence the title.
Not one of these religious zealots has addressed my challenges. For example, one of my questions was about orders from “God” to kill everyone but the virgin girls, which could be kept as a reward for the slayings. This is more appropriate for followers of Charles Manson, yet Christians call this excrement the word of God. We put people in jail or asylums who claim God told them to do such things. And rightly so!
A real God would be too good to do such a thing. A real God would be too almighty to need to. And a real God surely doesn’t need our help to kill!
Again, love and the golden rule is all the religion any of us need. But then the priestcrafters would be out of business… God forbid that we can think for ourselves. It’s amazing how much manure can be swallowed when the priestcrafters mix it with the universal truth of “love each other.” (A truth which carries its own authority, and to which we are aware from our earliest youth, though we all take awhile to start obeying it.)
Lastly, for the record, Jesus is a hero to me! But he is no more “God” than the rest of us.
“The reason why you see more nonbelievers than ever before is because there is a World Wide Web now and it’s not part of the media that has traditionally quashed subject matter that doesn’t fit within the public’s general sensibilities. Turns out that there are many people who question traditional religious teaching, they just never had a convenient way to share ideas. The Web is the worst thing to ever happen to religion.”
Oh, Mike Scott, have you ever got this figured out!
“I’m pretty sure that our Veterans of the past wouldn’t be so slow to recognize the “domestic enemies” of the Constitution that we have in our midst.”
Cool! Reality from Shron N. It’s only sporadic and occasional, but I’ll take it.
“Sharon, what you have to understand here is that when we talk about keeping the religious nutters our of the public realm, the Christian nutters are tossed in the mix along with those of other “lesser” religions.”
Exactly. Having grown up in the religious system, I can tell you they see the world through such fundy absolutism, that what you said doesn’t even cross the desk of their mind.
“WOW!!! Tsk, tsk, you get SO offended by tracks left in public?”
Oh, not at all. On the other hand, more people would get bent out of shape if there was a secular counterpart to a tract left in various places…. or what if CHILDREN were to find them… oh, the horror! lol. I love finding those things! When I have a handful of the ones that look like ten or twenty dollar bills, I go up on the second story of Valley View Mall and inconspicuously drop them, one at a time, and watch people dive on what they think is a twenty dollar bill only to curse, crumple, and spike in the trash can the tract they were just rick-rolled with. I go to a mall only a couple of times a year and that is the only reason.
“I’ve yet to see groups of atheists at disaster sites or helping the poor, BTW.”
Just because the atheists don’t go in groups on busses with their banner ADVERTISING their presence and making youtube videos to show on religious TV, does not mean they aren’t there! I know a lot of who are active in the community and helping the disadvantaged, but don’t do so under the banner of a religious group, they do so because THEY care, not because God or their group is telling them to care. Real character shines when no one is looking!
Re: Comment by Sharon N. — May 6, 2012 @ 4:45 am
“My question of “Aren’t you glad you live in America?” was saying ..in other words…Aren’t you glad that in America, Christian leaders CAN’T go to Congress and the President and have them enact a Law that allows for the KILLING of other Christians who question any aspect of God or the Bible….and aren’t you glad that non-believers, like many of you here CAN’T be put in Prison for saying “there is no God”, The Bible is BS” etc…hey in Kuwait..and other Muslim Countries..you can be IMPRISONED (or KILLED) for saying stuff like that.!!!”
———-
Asked and answered. But I will take another pass at explaining it to you.
You look at but one side and maybe then only through a very narrow window. I look at the whole picture.
Freedom isn’t free. But don’t worry your freedoms are paid for — and not by a single religious group to promote a single creed.
Us Marines and other armed services folk (consisting of all colors, all ethnic backgrounds, all creeds, atheists, agnostics, etc) have already paid the price for you to act the fool, to spout your hate your bigotry, your prejudice, your bias, your narrow-mindedness, your chauvinism. etc.
Our freedoms were bought and paid for (time and again) by, patriots and veterans of all sorts, all colors, all ethnic backgrounds, all creeds, atheists, agnostics, etc. and are protected and maintained by our secular goverment. No single creed paid the bill.
In that process, our FF created what has be come to be called the separation of church and state.
As to the abuses of a theocratic driven goverment and /or of any goverment too much influenced / too tightly controlled by a single creed, please study history — study early in the 10th century when Empress Theodora had put to death a multitude of Paulicians; or study the crusades of the 11th, 12th and 13th century; and then study the Spanish Inquisition persecution of heretics, Jews, etc., esp. in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries.
Then study the rules and practices of the Puritans, in this country as well as in England.
Just so you don’t pass off abuses by Christians as just “old history”, check out War in Bosnia and Herzegovina 1992-1995. Note the Christian Serbs and Christian Slavic fighters systematically ransacked or burnt down homes, civilians were rounded up and sometimes beaten or killed in the process. Men and women were separated, with many of the men massacred or detained in the camps. The women were kept in various detention centers where they had to live in intolerably unhygienic conditions, where they were mistreated in many ways including being raped repeatedly.
How about the current “Lord’s Resistance Army”, accused of abducting 20,000 children for use as boy soldiers and sex slaves in a 20-year reign of terror? General Oti has been accused of ordering horrendous acts of violence in the name of establishing a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and local Acholi tradition — mix of African mysticism, Acholi nationalism, Islam, and Christian fundamentalism. Many of the LRA’s abducted children were forced to kill their parents, girls were raped by the LRA commanders and anyone who stood up to them risked having ears, lips and tongues cut-off.
Right up to the present. Religious nuts of all stripes attempt to mandate, reproductive practices dictated by their faith through forcing their religious views on others who do not believe as they do (and I suspect to “rope in” some of their own flock who might be less than absolute obedience).
Yup! you point out some bad things about some subsets of another religion. But don’t close your eyes to what subsets of our religion has done and is doing.
IMHO, it is the secular government that we need to support by keep away as far away from policy-making as possible all the RELIGIOUS NUTS — WHENEVER YOU ATTEMPT TO PASS LAWS ENFORCING YOUR THEOLOGY, TRADITIONS, AND VALUES ON OTHERS who are of other opinions!!
IMHO, no religious group should be allowed to dominate the political process.
Lord spare us all the dictates of RELIGIOUS NUTS seeking any form of theocratic government.
Re: Comment by dave — May 6, 2012 @ 12:04 pm
Dan, are the fonts for sarcasm, irony, derision, satire, mockery, caustic wit, caricature, burlesque, parody, lampoon, ridicule, etc not yet working?
Re: my comment a 2:19 pm
Sorry that I let the bold run on.
I intended an end-of-the-bold mark after please study history.
The next bolded section was to be in the name of establishing a theocratic state.
All in between was to be regular font.
Again sorry.
Sure wish we could edit comments once they show up to the writer but before Dan approves them.
How about it, Dan, any chance to move to a good forum software?
Re: Comment by dave — May 6, 2012 @ 12:04 pm
“Hail to the wealthy for they are the children of God!”
———-
Wow! the “Children of God”???? How many members of that “Christian” sect/cult are here?
http://tinyurl.com/276fpqn
**
The Family International (TFI), formed as the Children of God (COG) and later named Family of Love and the Family, is a cult, started in 1968 in Huntington Beach, California, United States. It began in the late 1960s, with many of its early converts drawn from the hippie movement. The Children of God was among the movements prompting the cult controversy of the 1970s and 1980s in the United States and Europe and triggered the first organized anticult group FREECOG.
SNIP
In 1974, David Berg introduced a new proselytization method called Flirty Fishing (or FFing), which encouraged female members to show God’s love by engaging in sexual activity with potential converts. Flirty Fishing was practiced by members of Berg’s inner circle starting in 1973, and was later introduced to the general membership. By 1978, it was widely practiced by members of the group. In some areas, Flirty Fishers used escort agencies to meet people. According to TFI, as a result of Flirty Fishing, “over 100,000 received God’s gift of salvation through Jesus, and some chose to live the life of a disciple and missionary”. According to data provided by TFI to researcher Bill Bainbridge, from 1974 until 1987, members had sexual contact with 223,989 people while practicing Flirty Fishing.[10] Flirty Fishing also resulted in the births of many children, including Karen Zerby’s son, Davidito (aka Ricky Rodriguez). Children born as result of Flirty Fishing were referred to as “Jesus Babies”. By the end of 1981, more than 300 “Jesus Babies” had been born.
SNIP
**
If you can stomach some very graphic details of this “Christian” cult also see: http://tinyurl.com/8ofgvz
**
SNIP
“[T]here’s nothing in the world at all wrong with sex as long as it’s practiced in love, whatever it is or whoever it’s with, no matter who or what age [read a child of any age] or what relative or what manner!”
Source: The Devil Hates Sex!—But God Loves It!, DFO 999, 1980-05-20
SNIP
**
———-
Wait a minute. dave didn’t capitalize “children.” Maybe he had something else in mind.
———-
But in any case, I surly don’t want the COG [a.k.a Family of Love, the Family, The Family International (TFI)] writing the laws of our country. Yet that’s what a theocratic state is all about — one faith forcing it’s views on all others.
I support a secular state where those of all colors, all ethnic backgrounds, all traditions, all creeds/atheists/agnostics/etc work out policy-making in OUR Country through consensus, compromise, and respect — with no one religion being in charge.
Re: Comment by John Wilburn — May 6, 2012 @ 2:13 pm
“Oh, not at all. On the other hand, more people would get bent out of shape if there was a secular counterpart to a tract left in various places…. or what if CHILDREN were to find them… oh, the horror! lol”
————
Right on John.
Isn’t that what all the anguishover teaching evolution is about?
Isn’t that what all the hand wringing over school curriculum and books is about?
See: http://tinyurl.com/27g5w82
**
Texas schools board rewrites US history with lessons promoting God and guns
US Christian conservatives drop references to slave trade and sideline Thomas Jefferson who backed church-state separation
SNIP
**
—–
We don’t need to need to hypothesize about the extreme right and extreme “Christian” reaction. We have seen their version of “book-burning.”
Johns correct. Atheists are capable of doing the occasional good deed without loudly covering themselves in glory about it.
“I’ve yet to see groups of atheists at disaster sites or helping the poor, BTW. All atheists are good at, it seems, is taking shots at folks who try to live according to a set of principles…..”
You will see more of it..
I suspect your ignorance on this particular matter derives mostly with your unfamiliarity of atheist discussions about charity. It’s a topic that comes up frequently, because your current assertion is a typical lie of generalization used to denigrate atheists. The discussions I’ve read from atheist acknowledge that churches are a much better position to organize their charities. They have long histories of doing charitable work and have established organizations to distribute services. Churches are good a charity work, but they don’t own exclusive rights to charity. Anyone can do charity and share such principles even if they have not theistic belief. Heck, Hamas does charity work.
Atheists generally have no such networks, but that’s changing.
During these last few years, online sites that are more secular have become responsive to charitable efforts. Here are some examples:
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/news/share_opens_fund_for_haiti_quake_relief
If you aren’t familiar with Reddit, an appeal on atheist thread resulted in a nice contribution to Doctors without Borders.
http://www.firstgiving.com/fundraiser/r-atheism/ratheism/nonprofit
There will be more!
Re: Comment by Kristen — May 6, 2012 @ 6:15 pm
Yup.
In some cases, joining in on community efforts that others love to take credit for.
As to charity w/o religious tags, check out these and see how many do not carry a religious tag: http://tinyurl.com/6ar9o2p
#119,
““I’ve yet to see groups of atheists at disaster sites or helping the poor, BTW.”
It’s hard to see anything with your head shoved so far up there…
I think if the scientific community were to do a study on why atheists don’t give to charitable causes, the synopsis would look something like this:
Atheists don’t give to charitable causes because they don’t give a shi*t about anybody but themselves
Atheists are capable of doing the occasional good deed
Bill Clinton could have uttered that statement. it’s a whole lot of nothing made to sound like something.
What suzie hopes nobody will point out is that if 80 percent of the nation claims it’s religious (actually about 82 percent), then naturally 4 out of 5 volunteers at any disaster or for anything else will be folks who say they’re religious. So of course it looks like it’s mostly self-proclaimed religious folks there — because they’re the vast majority of the population.
Wow, cutting troll suzie down to size is SO easy.
BTW, troll suzie, several non-religious groups from your beloved Virginia Tech went south to help after Katrina. You really don’t keep up with things at all, do you?
Suzie, I could make a comment about eggplant parm and you’d dredge up some lame-assed grunt in response. Your endless grabs for my attention grow tiresome.
DaveHicks thats it exactly. I can think of more than one service project or volunteer gig I’ve undertaken as part of NO organized group, religious social or otherwise. More like “gee I have a few hours to kick in to a clean up day”. Totally undocumented and un-praised!
“Your endless grabs for my attention grow tiresome.
He has been extraordinarily needy of late. Maybe his pet tarantula died.
I can think of more than one service project or volunteer gig I’ve undertaken as part of NO organized group, religious social or otherwise.
And that proves exactly….squat, since lots of groups aren’t affiliated with a church. Doesn’t mean of course that none of them attend church.
This is what I mean. I am surrounded by idiots.
Suzie@11:59 AM
When was the last time you saw a Catholic Bishop or Cardinal living in anything but surroundings of opulrnce and wealth. When was the last time anyone actually categorized and calculated trhe vast stores of wealth, valuable art, and trappings of the Vatican. Tell me about those vows of poverty. And Dave Hicks didn’t even get around to the slaughter that took place in Ireland for most of the past century in the name of religion as Protestants and Catholics bombed, burned, attacked, raped and pillaged one another to prove who had the “true” faith.
Bill Clinton’s foundation raises tremendous amounts of money and does great works worldwide. Nothing is more symbolic of the attitudes of Republicans than when Clinto and Bush went together to haiti. When Bush actually touched one of those Haitians, he then surreptitiously wiped his hand off on Bill Clinton’s shirt.
“I can think of more than one service project or volunteer gig I’ve undertaken as part of NO organized group, religious social or otherwise. More like “gee I have a few hours to kick in to a clean up day”. Totally undocumented and un-praised!”
Same here. Since we’re not earning credit toward heaven in the eyes of our peers, we do it for all the RIGHT reasons.
When my mother’s church was moving from one building to another, I volunteered to move furniture and equipment when they needed help. I ran into a secular friend who was helping as well. Would you ever in a hundred years see uber-Baptists helping atheist friends move into a new secular learning center?
I just keep hearing how generous liberals are, and we know atheists are almost all liberal, so it shouldn’t be that hard to find a busload of atheists helping out at these disasters.
Let’s be honest. Most atheists are loner losers who took their ball home and withdrew from society a long time ago. The last thing they’re going to do is hop a bus and inconvenience themselves for a week.
Nothing is more symbolic of the attitudes of Republicans than when Clinto and Bush went together to haiti. When Bush actually touched one of those Haitians, he then surreptitiously wiped his hand off on Bill Clinton’s shirt.
GWB did the red-nosed philanderer a favor by getting him the tsunami PR. Up to that point, Bubba was a disgraced world laughingstock. Of course in keeping with the true nature of liberals, Clinton slammed GWB on several fronts in the years after. No good deed goes unpunished. GWB’s big mistake was trying to make nice with these bastards. Nixon did the same thiing We see where that got them.
Suzie:
“Let’s be honest. Most atheists are loner losers who took their ball home and withdrew from society a long time ago. The last thing they’re going to do is hop a bus and inconvenience themselves for a week.”
Where do you come up with this erroneous crap? It’s the religious kooks who “withdraw” from the “godless masses” of society.
You know, a strong woman of God would fearlessly put her whole, real name and website with contact info on her posts and use the opportunity to witness. You anonymously throw bombs at the posters from which you’ve alienated yourself (which is pretty much everybody) for absolutely nothing but your own enjoyment. If you are a Christian, no wonder fewer and fewer people want anything to do with your religion or any other religion. You are, however, a strong witness for what religion, a religion devoid of spirituality, can do to someone.
#129 suzie, Kristen made no claim whatsoever that nobody at these events was religious. Dolt.
Worth pointing out again, if 82 percent of the U.S. claims to be religious, then it makes sense that most folks — more than 4 out of 5 — doing volunteer work will be religious. For some reason troll suzie thinks you won’t realize this.
I don’t think someone who is “ruled by love” would refer to priests/clergy as “priestcrafters” or to Catholics as “Popish”. These terms have been used by anti-Catholic bigots over the last 500 years or so. Nor does a person “ruled by love” try to force Christians to pray a Muslim prayer just to prove a point. Is a non-sectarian prayer good enough for him or not?
Notice too that he does not address the teaching of Jesus in the New Testament, but only carps about problematic issues in the Old Testament. This may be sincere but is very misleading.
It does not reflect well on the Time or on Casey to allow someone to publish such an unbecoming and somewhat bigoted rant. Kind of makes Gresham’s opponents look better! I don’t condone anyone treating Mr Gresham badly…but I would ask him to look into his heart and amend his manner of speaking of others and their sincere beliefs.