Thou shalt remove the Ten Commandments from Narrows High School
www.godhearme.org
The Giles County school board today voted to remove the Ten Commandments from a school wall in Narrows High School.
The decision comes in the face of an almost certain federal court ruling against the board and costly plaintiffs’ attorneys fees they could have to pay if they had lost the case.
My colleague Laurence Hammack has that story here.
What do you think? Did the board do the right thing? Why or why not?
Put your comments below.
May 31, 2012 - 3:19 PM
You’re still missing it, Dan. This is yet another step in the nefarious long-range plan set up a couple of years ago as part of the plot to unseat Obama. suzie’s tried time and time again to let you in on the secret, but you just won’t listen.
Shame on them.
It’s a 100% guaranteed loser case, Jack. Why is it you gun folk are so absolutely committed to the Constitution when it comes to firearms, but so wishy-washy on any other amendments. The FIRST, for example.
Bless the ACLU for standing between our children and religious nuttery. Listening to the hateful garbage coming out of places like North Carolina, we have to understand it’s more important than ever to protect our public spaces from the religious fringe.
The forces of Hate and Intolerance win another victory.
They did they right thing under the circumstances, but it’s a shame both sides couldn’t have had a better understanding and dialogue beforehand. The Commandments could and should have stayed right there with different people being able to learn different lessons from them.
Yes, they were right to remove the Ten Commandments. No, they shouldn’t have posted that silly page from the “history book”.
That document won’t do anything to edify children, but I guess it makes the adults feel better.
It would be good, and constructive, it they were to understand the difference between teaching religion, and teaching ‘about’ religion.
But I doubt they are likely to make that distinction.
I am so thankful I was raised in a christian home! One day the non-believers will give anything and will be begging for a glass of ice water!
Us christians pray for you every day!
Yes they did the right thing, because it’s a public school with a diverse student body. Christian students can post copies on their lockers if they want to.
Ten Commandments are down in schools, uneducated violent nit wits are being produced from these buildings called schools. You gay folks seem to have a deep seeded hatred foe Christ. Our country will continue to decline from the once great nation it was. I feel sorry for the kids. Hey, call me a homophobe or a racist, but removing the 1o commandments is wrong. Anyone care to cherry pick some bible verses?? Maybe we should follow the teachings of Alvarez. Kumbaya BabY!!
Kristen, I’ll pray for you… And defend your right to be wrong!
The First is clear. Period.
Giles County probably just saved itself several hundred thousand dollars. It certainly has the opportunity to educate the public as to WHY they voted to take the Commandments down.
This is a teachable moment; I hope the zealots will be still long enough to learn that this prohibition on posting the Commandments is about religious freedom.
Yes, NOT being able to post the Commandments is striking a blow FOR religious liberty.
This nation allows us all the leisure to follow whatever religion — or none at all — as we see fit. Think about that. In other nations, ones that we read about every day, the imposition of a certain brand of religion on the public is the cause of much needless strife and bloodshed.
And were the government of this nation to begin to sanction one religion over another …? Well, Democrat vs. Republican would look like a schoolyard spat over the teeter-totter in contrast.
We have religious liberty! It is glorious and unfettered! Revel in it! Pray, sing, dance, meditate … do whatever your faith tells you to do! There are precious few spaces on this planet where you are free to do so.
Part of the price you pay to do so is to respect the views of others and their faiths. You may talk about it, discuss it, lobby for it, but NEVER will anyone be allowed to impose their religious views on you, me or anyone else.
The beauty of our First Amendment is that is allows us relief from any person or governmental entity from trying to impose their religious beliefs on others.
And we all want liberty, right?
Amen Kristen.
Laurence didn’t say what page of what history textbook they’re planning to frame and put in the decalogue’s place. Any additional info on the way? I don’t want to preemptively dread that they’d choose something by David Barton.
i don’t agree! this country was founded on christian belief. we need to take a stand.
Comment by Kristen — May 31, 2012 @ 3:46 pm
For the record, there a plenty, myself included, of Pro-RKBA folk who are strong supporters of 1A and supporters of the separation of state and church.
I have repeatedly supported all of the bill of rights. On this particular subject I have posted a number of comments including a couple of jokes ridiculing the folk supporting the posting.
Your over-generalization is off the mark.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” –
Patrick Henry
Now that you introduced the issue of “firearms” is it OK to…?
Did my comment evaporate?
Sorry … Internet glitch, no doubt.
Anybody who thinks this is the last chapter, just stay tuned. That’s all I have to say.
I remain troubled by the title of the textbook page of “Roots of Democracy”. What do the Ten Commandments have to do with democratic rule by the people? Nothing. Did the Ten Commandments influence American government? Maybe. But the leap from the Ten Commandments to democratic rule is a poor logical argument. Which commandment refers explicitly or implicitly to democracy? “Roots of Common Law (and thereby American Government)” would be more accurate, and even then it would remain controversial.
Very interesting, our American society. It seems the further we push ourselves away from our “christian heritage”the worse off we become. The more we try to distance ourselves from our creator, the more”ungodly” we become. Or will this word “ungodly” become obsolete also? And we wonder why our world is in such a mess.
It’s a shame that one student through the ACLU can have control over the majority of citizens in Giles County who want the Ten Commandments to remain on the walls of the school. One of these days God is going to judge those who wish to forget the Judeo-Christian principals upon which this great nation was founded. It’s a shame we have forgotten.
Galations 6:7
“Be not Deceived; God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth,that shall he also reap.
Note: President Bill Clinton placed his hand on this verse when he was sworn in as our President
What part of any student who wants to can post the Ten Commandments on their locker, do you people not understand?
A document signed by an English King in 1215 is more important to the basic liberties we enjoy today than the Ten Commandments. Why was the Magna Carta important to the history of America? The Magna Carta is considered the founding document of English liberties and hence American liberties. The influence of Magna Carta can be seen in the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Article 21 from the Declaration of Rights in the Maryland Constitution of 1776 reads:
“That no freeman ought to be taken, or imprisoned, or disseized of his freehold, liberties, or privileges, or outlawed, or exiled, or in any manner destroyed, or deprived of his life, liberty, or property, but by the judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land.”
“That’s all I have to say.”
We’re not that lucky.
The parents, students and school board really should focus on doing the best possible job of teaching:
English, Math, Science, History, Art and fostering a strong community through athletics, extra curricular
activities and community service. Is there any possible way for all sides to “agree to disagree while treating
each other with respect and civility”? This has become a massive distraction that shouldn’t exist in our
tax payer funded public schools.
Bob-
“Ten Commandments are down in schools, uneducated violent nit wits are being produced from these buildings called schools.”
What does one have to do with the other? And violent crime has been in free fall for the last couple of decades, and that’s without the 10C in schools. Further, how do the 10C prevent violence?
“You gay folks seem to have a deep seeded hatred foe Christ.”
What do “gay folks” have to do with the obviously unconstitutional act of having the 10C in secular schools?
“Our country will continue to decline from the once great nation it was.”
Because a list of obvious moral truths and some religious dogma that have nothing to do with moral behavior aren’t posted in schools?
“I feel sorry for the kids. Hey, call me a homophobe or a racist,”
I find it hilarious that in a post about a topic having nothing to do with race or sexual orientation, you felt the need to say this.
“but removing the 1o commandments is wrong.”
What does homophobia and racism have to do with removing the 10C? And I get that you think it’s wrong, but you haven’t given a coherent argument as to why.
All sorts of people “believe in God” without having to hold the Ten Commandments. There are many histories and experiences around the world that hold the idea of “Faith”; “Prayer”; and “God” to be very dear and central to their respect of others, how they conduct themselves fairly and with compassion and respect. Is it not possible to respect and permit all types of faith without nailing it to one ideal? It should be. That’s what humanity is about.
If you need it pinned on the wall then doesn’t that signal you aren’t that committed in your heart and mind? Sounds like it.
It is beyond sad that even though you call yourselves Christians you still do not get the difference between Caesar and God. I hope when you are judged, God will take that into account. Caesar doesn’t allow ignorance as an excuse, but our Lord might.
Wonder if you all would be so ready to “take a stand” and decry the decision if this had been about “Sharia Law” or building a Mosque? Something tells me that is a religious and government separation you support.
Maybe if those Commandments were in more of the homes of those “violent nit wits”, the schools would not have such a problem. Of course your divorce, adultery, alcoholism, stealing and “coveting” might seem at odds with the tenets, but just do what you do best, pick on “the gays” (NOT MENTIONED IN THE BIG 10 or by Jesus) and ignore the rest.
Go on back to casting your stones, you without sin of course.
May I suggest the County take the money they don’t have for legal fees and spend it on a billboard on private land so you can proselytize on your own on merit.
In response to the comment “On Religious Nuttery Protection” by Poster-Krisen-It is the 10 Commandments and other tenants of religious faith that guide people in the right direction, not the wrong. If we don’t see it, how can we use it?
I am happy with the “compromise” page they will display. I think that it is an accepted part of our history that Judeo-Christian Religious teachings did play a roll in the laws of this nation as it did in the lives of the people who forged and framed this nation. No need to deny it.
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.
Jonathan Swift
Allow me to paraphraase a reply. Why is it you anti-gun folk are so absolutely committed to the Constitution when it comes to the separation of church and state, but so wishy-washy on any other amendments, including the other part of the FIRST, for example. You know the part that declares that the free exercise of religion shall not be prohibited. I guess that part is just too inconvenient to rationalize away so ignoring it is easier.
To those of you complaining about the ruling: What don’t you understand about “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”?
Come on! It really is this simple! To continue to carp about this indicates that you are simply unwilling to or incapable of learning.
Personally, I think those whom are trying to get our Ten Commandments removed from schools, government buildings, etc. don’t want anything that exposes their sins so they have to deal with it. The saying goes “out of sight out of mind.” Just take time to look around and see the degradation of our society and think how it could be if the Ten Commandments had been, and were still being taught and adhered to. Whether or not you are a believer 2 Corinthians 5:10 states “We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.” Bottom line, you may chose to hide the Ten Commandments but the fact still remains, If you do not repent (turn away)from your sins and Trust JESUS as your SAVIOR, believe that HE died and rose again for your sins, ask HIM into your heart to help you change and show you how to live. If not their fate can be found in Revelation 20:11-15
Now Mr. Dan the ball is in your court, will you post or not?
@Kristen: “It’s a 100% guaranteed loser case, Jack. Why is it you gun folk are so absolutely committed to the Constitution when it comes to firearms, but so wishy-washy on any other amendments. The FIRST, for example.”
The First Amendment has nothing to do with this. I have seen nothing in the Constitution that guarantees freedom from religion. Maybe you could kindly point it out to me.
@Ed: “I remain troubled by the title of the textbook page of “Roots of Democracy”.”
You should be more concerned of the fact that most people believe that America is a Democracy at all.
DaveHicks, I didn’t mean you.
The rest of you…please don’t pray for me, seriously. And if you don’t like living in a country that spares its populace from force-fed religion, move to the Middle East. There’s plenty of mandatory religious theatre for all, and hey! They execute homosexuals there, too! Bonus points!
JohnW, both sides had a perfect understanding of the situation, as Giles County just demonstrated. They had a losing case. What on earth would have possessed the ACLU to bargain on a case they’d won? Pity you don’t place equal value on all of the Bill of Rights.
Perhaps the preacher and the rattlesnake story woke them up.
It is not a public school systems job to teach children about religion. That is a parents job. Teach them your beliefs, take them to church and if your want their schooling to be religious, place them in a private Christian school.
Just as my name implies……disgusting action!
#19 Cue the Twilight Zone music.
#22 You ARE aware aren’t you, that the kids can still post the Ten Commandments on their lockers and even carry them around all day reading them when class isn’t in session. Why is it they need to be plastered on the wall by secular government authorities? How in the heck does that make a difference?
The Second Commandment makes this all seem ironic, doesn’t it.
#10 Nice, Bob, Yes, it would appear that you are indeed a homophobe, otherwise why would you just randomly call everybody here gay? And fairly uneducated, as well. You could stand a few more English classes and fewer religious ones.
Schools these days permit foul and cursive language and inappropriate clothing by ignoring its’ rampant presence. If it is against my religious beliefs then why is it being permitted in the schools? Christianity is stifled, so heathenism should be too. Christians have rights, let’s enforce it.
Love and prayers to everyone involved in this decision. I cannot imagine how difficult this was for the Giles County School Board Members. I’m sure they feel like they did something right and wrong at the same time today.
Any deity that can’t get its most sacred laws nailed to a school wall doesn’t deserve to be worshiped. The Ten Commandments are nothing but superstitious claptrap handed down through oral history by illiterate male desert nomads who invented it solely for the purpose of dominating other male desert nomads, and REALLY dominating female desert nomads. Long live Freedom From Religion. USA USA USA!!!
Do religious people really think that the Jews were doing all this forbidden stuff before Moses came down from the mountain with the tablets? Were they stealing from each other and murdering each other before the Ten Commandments any more than they were after? Were they committing adultery and disrespecting their parents? It’s absurd to think that the tribes were lawless until this set of random and incomplete rules were supposedly written and sent down by the big spirit on the mountaintop. Use your heads, people. Really, why did the deity leave out child molestation, incest and rape, but yet he was so vain, he dedicated the first four to redundant demands to be worshiped in various fashions. Enough already with the self-glorification LOL. These Ten Commandments are really an embarrassing set of semi-literate, arbitrary demands that are totally unworthy of the creator of the infinite multiverse. If there is a creator, he’s got a lot more writing ability than that.
Chuck,
The free exercise of religion is one thing. But public schools are another. They’re compulsory. Check the law.
It’s one thing for a student to say a prayer in a public school. Nobody is saying that spontaneous, student-initiated prayer should be barred. It’s another thing entirely for that student to demand the school hang a religious tract on its wall, or for school officials to lead students in prayer in a classroom or an assembly. Those things are compulsory (in other words, it’s not “free” exercise).
Chuck, perhaps you do not understand this but the school board, or the school administration putting up the 10 Commandments is not an individual’s right to “the free exercise of religion”.
I am “absolutely committed to the Constitution when it comes to the” free exercise of religion (even if I think your religion is a cult that baptizes dead people and believes Joseph Smith is coming back) EXCEPT in the case of the Constitutionally mandated “separation of church and state”. I am absolutely committed to the Constitution when it comes to gun rights EXCEPT in the case of the Constitutionally mandates “due process” which allows me to lobby for idiots not to have guns.
They don’t care whether the kids can put up the 10 cs in their lockers or not because it has never been about the kids, who don’t give a rip about this drummed up “issue”. This is about adults trying to force what they consider to be their Xian “majority” down everyone else’s throats through a captive audience of school kids.
Chuck, your red herring doesn’t fly. The kids in the school are free to wander around praying outloud should they choose to (they won’t…they don’t care) or “gather round the flagpole” if they wish. Those that wish, can. Those that DON’T wish, don’t have to.
This case was a clean as the Plowshares people’s case downtown was.
And Bob….Xians like you are exactly why the ACLU has to remain vigilant. They’re the strongest force for constitutional integrity we have in this country. And FYI, since you clearly don’t consider yourself one of the “uneducated violent nitwits”….it’s “deep seated”. Not “seeded”. But what do I know….I’m just a gay uneducated violent nitwit.
Karita…”cursive language” really? As opposed to what, printed language?
Your school had bigger problems than “heathenism”. Mayhap Giles needs to get back to basics.
Personally, I think those trying to get the Ten Commandments displayed in schools, government buildings, etc. don’t have the sense to realize their own hypocrisy. Jesus knew the difference in Caesar and God. Why don’t you? You have no more right to push your religious tenets in the face of kids in a government school than those who want that scary Sharia Law do.
If the Giles schools “permit foul and cursive language and inappropriate clothing” I guess the Ten Commandments have not had much of an effect have they? Do you even imagine that “foul and cursive language and inappropriate clothing” starts at home? The teachers and administrators sure are not doing it.
Once again the minority wins. It doesn’t matter what the majority want. This country was built on Christianity, but won’t stay that way for long if the minority wants it changed. They have the ACLU and Supreme Court behind them.
I’m definitely out of the mainstream opinion here.
I’m all for keeping any SINGLE religion out of federally-funded schools. One religion should not hold precedent over any other when it comes to the education of our children. IF, and that’s a big IF, we are going to allow religious doctrines and ideology in our public schools, then none should hold more weight than any other. To those proponents of the 10Cs being in and even being taught in public schools, another could argue that the tenets of Sharia Law be displayed and even taught as well. And THERE is where the real Pandora’s Box lies. Teaching our children Sharia Law is a ridiculous notion, of course, but it’s hard to argue the logic when fairness and justice are applied. After all, the First Amendment really doesn’t say anything about our government endorsing religion in general – it just disallows one particular religion over another.
That being said, I think Giles County missed an excellent opportunity to teach their students a priceless lesson about democracy and perhaps even set a national precedent. The students and faculty of Narrows High School could have been allowed to vote on the matter, with the outcome deciding whether the 10Cs were taken down or not. Please understand that I’m supposing the students be allowed to vote about the presence of religious tenets, not the 10Cs specifically. Take yourself back to your high school days… Can you imagine the pride you would feel, knowing the power and privilege of your vote influenced something actually tangible in your school?
Of course, to comply with law and in the interest of fairness, comparable alternatives would have to be allowed to be displayed as well, with no more or less prominence than any other.
The most important lesson had nothing to do with our fanaticism in keeping the 10Cs in or out of Narrows. The most important lesson could have been to teach those kids that they have a voice and it should be counted when it comes to a place where they spend over 1000 hours a year, and that lesson was lost in our incessant polarization.
No the Board did not do the right thing. It still amazes me we have changed our way of life so we(USA) don’t offend a handful of people. Where I am employed you can’t say Christmas Party anymore it is Holiday Party. If people are so offended by the Ten Commandments, most likely it is because they are not living right and don’t want to be reminded of it. You can take it down but the Word of God stands before, now, and always. We Christian and Non Christian will all answer for letting these Liberals put anything to do with God in the Closet socked away like a old shirt that you don’t want to wear any longer.
You know something the Giles County School Board Members are pretty sad at taking the commandments down. You would think that members would stand to fight for the 10 Commandments in stead of chickening out and bowing down to the ACLU. First they want to take out the prayers in schools. They want to take out the Bible studies and now this. Giles County Schools are pretty sad to me. I can’t imagine what the schools are gonna be like when my granddaughter starts schools. I’m almost afraid to send her to school when its time. The school board are a bunch of chickens now. What are they gonna be like when she goes to school?? I hate to even imagine.
Re: Comment by Dan Casey — May 31, 2012 @ 9:21 pm
As to prayer in school: as long as there are tests, kids will pray.
Rucker is on the money with comment #7
Kristen:
“Pity you don’t place equal value on all of the Bill of Rights.”
I don’t ???? Wow, I don’t get where you’re coming from at all. A lot of the folks here want to gut the 1st, 2nd, and 4th Amendments. The Zimmerman case has a lot of folks wanting to deny him the 5th, 6th, and 8th. The globalists and big government people here usually disregard the 10th Amendment. I take a stronger stand for the Bill of Rights than most anyone here.
“Christians have rights, let’s enforce it.”
They sure do, the SAME as everyone else. The is NO right to not be offended.
John Vaughn-
“Personally, I think those whom are trying to get our Ten Commandments removed from schools, government buildings, etc. don’t want anything that exposes their sins so they have to deal with it.”
I don’t believe in the concept of “sin” so you’re completely wrong.
“The saying goes “out of sight out of mind.” Just take time to look around and see the degradation of our society and think how it could be if the Ten Commandments had been, and were still being taught and adhered to.”
What school doesn’t teach that lying, stealing, and murder are wrong? Adultery, no matter how often it’s practiced, is frowned upon as well, whether by the religious or non.
That leaves the rest of the commandments, which have nothing to do with moral behavior or ethics and are specific religious dogma. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” A religious book telling me what day to take off or whether or not I can take its deity’s name in vain is pretty clearly religious-only.
“Whether or not you are a believer 2 Corinthians 5:10 states “We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.””
Well yes, whether or not I’m a believer, I’m sure that’s what it says. That doesn’t make it anything but adult fairy tales from my perspective though.
“Bottom line, you may chose to hide the Ten Commandments but the fact still remains, If you do not repent (turn away)from your sins and Trust JESUS as your SAVIOR, believe that HE died and rose again for your sins, ask HIM into your heart to help you change and show you how to live. If not their fate can be found in Revelation 20:11-15″
Do you honestly find this crap persuasive? I have to believe that a supposedly perfect being allowed his son to be horribly tortured and turned into a zombie to get to Heaven (itself a juvenile concept)? You’ve got to do better than that.
Jack-
“I have seen nothing in the Constitution that guarantees freedom from religion.”
Freedom of religion is meaningless without freedom from religion. Aside from that, the Constitution bars religious tests for holding office which obviously implies that you can be an atheist and hold office.
So let me get this straight:
We are to believe that the inventor of the laws of physics and the programmer of DNA decided to enter the uterus of a Jewish virgin, get himself born, then deliberately had himself tortured and executed because he couldn’t think of a better way to forgive the theft of an apple, committed at the instigation of a talking snake?
Any thinking person knows this nonsense has no place in a public school.
I have two extensive blogposts examining this situation.
First, one examining the legal issues involved with the hanging of the document in the first place:
http://etratio.blogspot.com/2012/05/giles-county-revisited.html
And, second, one examining the most recent development (taking down the Commandments):
http://etratio.blogspot.com/2012/05/ten-commandments-taken-down-in-giles-va.html
Pat Oney:
“I’m sure they [Giles County School Board] feel like they did something right and wrong at the same time today.”
I feel for them too as that had to be a difficult and heartbreaking decision. What really helps with that is ridding oneself of the religious fearmongering that is rammed down one’s throat from birth that has him/her scared of hell with each and every thing he/she does. It makes all rational decisions to be made for the rest of one’s life unnecessarily difficult.
Karita, I’m for a person’s right to choose their own path, but personally, for what it’s worth, I’m NOT a fan of the coarsening of our culture. True ladies are all but a thing of the past, a lot of teenage girls dress like sluts, and the over sexualization of kids just keeps starting at an earlier and earlier age. I would like to see more strong role models influencing our young people that know profanity, piercings, tattoos, smoking, drinking, and revealing clothing are not essential to defining who one is. Okay, personal rant over…
I thinks it’s terrible that they wasted all this taxpayer money on this. The children deserved a focus on education, not a political agenda.
Earl K:
“Any thinking person knows this nonsense has no place in a public school.”
“Thinking” being the missing link in far too many people. You and Brian Cooper ought to hang out. I’ve heard a thousand times growing up that it takes a lot of guts to stand up for God, but I’ve found in reality that it takes more guts to question the beliefs one is taught in order to be rewarded with a stronger mind and proven values that actually have “value”. Having been on both sides of that fence, I have a perspective that only those like me share. Something no one would ever ask for, but I wouldn’t trade for anything.
Brian Cooper, I dare you to sneak away and feed your mind from the full buffet of life. If your faith really is that strong, you won’t lose your taste for it. Fair enough?
Jason:
“Well yes, whether or not I’m a believer, I’m sure that’s what it says. That doesn’t make it anything but adult fairy tales from my perspective though.”
Jason, I’ve noticed that just like Sharon N answers people’s questions about her ramblings with a whole bunch more words, a lot of religious folks answer anyone’s questioning of scripture with more scripture. One, that only makes the water murkier and two, it only makes the person throwing out the scripture look weak-minded and unable to support their viewpoints with any amount of reason or logic. At least it gets entertaining when you give them a lot of rope before giving back the verses that endorse stoning or human sacrifice, etc.
Here is Mr. Jefferson’s Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, one of the three achievements enumerated on his tombstone. It’s rather a shame that few today can even understand much of what Jefferson wrote, but the fact remains that some of his language continues today in the Constitution of Virginia. Note particularly that no mention is contained therein of ANY sect or creed, including Christianity:
An Act for establishing religious Freedom.
Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free;
That all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and therefore are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do,
That the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time;
That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical;
That even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the Ministry those temporary rewards, which, proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind;
That our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry,
That therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence, by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages, to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right,
That it tends only to corrupt the principles of that very Religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments those who will externally profess and conform to it;
That though indeed, these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way;
That to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own;
That it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order;
And finally, that Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them:
Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. And though we well know that this Assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of Legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare that the rights hereby asserted, are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.[3]
Although I might question how accurate the information in the textbook is (“Asbestos is Our Friend” was in a school library), the placement of a textbook page about democracy in the school seems more appropriate to me than the placement of the 10 commandments. It is, after all, a public school funded by the government.
First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
The first two parts of it are the only parts remotely relevant here: “”Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…”
I do not see how posting the Ten Commandments established a religion. It didn’t. It just posted a document on a wall. I also do not see how it prohibited anyone from exercising their own.
Again, not a First Amendment issue.
@Saintbridge: “To those of you complaining about the ruling: What don’t you understand about “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”?”
Could you please clarify for me what law Giles County School Board made? I am mildly confused because it is my understanding that school boards do not make laws.
This is not a case of a minority “winning”. It’s a situation in which a group that self-identifies as a “majority” is precluded from using that power to infringe on the rights of the rest of the community. Any time that happens, it’s a win for democracy. The purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect minorities from exactly that.
As for society being “coarsened”, supposedly because we’re kicking God out of the school cafeteria or whatever…there are things said in the name of “Christianity” that are far more disgusting and perverse than an honest F bomb. When the so-called “Christians” on this thread speak out against the “man of God” in NC who advocated penning up homosexuals in electrified fences, I’ll maybe take them seriously. A little. But, they don’t…do I don’t either.
So much for celebrating Diversity. Instead, the Giles County School Board celebrates intolerance and Hate. What next? Removing MLK Day as a holiday because he was a Baptist preacher?
The ironic thing is that this move is meaningless. They will still have to pay out a bunch of money because this was simply a harassment suit by the Anti-Christian Lawyers Association.
Freedom of religion means no only being a follower of any religion, it also means the freedom NOT to be religious. Imposing any specific religion on ALL is just as bad as telling people NOT to be religious, so, the Board made the right decision. As a christian, I believe that religion imposition on others is getting out of hand, same as the intentions by some politicians to include a given religion, not all, in governing our country.
As someone else wrote, some people believe that guns and Christianity are the only two given rights, all other rights are not important (unless they think they are….).
Get over it, your rights end where someone else’s rights begin !!!
All the bantering on this thread makes for good reading.
Everyone on this blog has at least attended some high school, I suppose. I am curious to know if any of you fellow posters even bothered to read them if they were posted at your high school.
I don’t even remember if the commandments were displayed at my school. Most of the teens I hung out with couldn’t have cared less about it.
My guess is that most of the folks kicking up all the sand about taking them down, couldn’t recite them from memory anyway.
Now, before anyone starts throwing stones, I am neither here, nor there, on religion. I just don’t want the state deciding which religion (if any) my children practice. I’ll do it myself.
Why should one family have the right to make a decision for the majority?
Is that democracy? Has anyone noticed how are problems have increased exponentially in the last couple decades? Have you read the old Testament about what happens when people deny God and His standards? The ACLU should is a pathetic.
Sorry I was distracted, thus the last line was fragmented.
Am I the only one that finds it amusing that the seed of this entire discord was planted by a Cecil B. DeMille marketing gimmick in the 1950s?
http://www.cracked.com/article_19729_6-iconic-things-you-wont-believe-began-as-publicity-stunts.html
No wonder our society is in such complete shambles and our youth are lost. “If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.”
Ronald Reagan
I live here, and I would just like to point out that the Ten Commandments aren’t Christian. They’re Hebrew, written some 1500 years before the birth of Christ.
Go ahead and Google it. I’ll wait here…
God is not impressed or concerned if the Ten Commandments are posted on the wall in some school or Government building. He desires our hearts, not our walls…..My fellow Christians stop nursing the milk from the bottle and start eating the meat of the WORD!
Psalm 119:11 Your word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against you.
How does the severe problems we have in our schools correspond with the removal of prayer from our schools? Why do non-Christians have the ability to impose their will upon a predominately Christian nation? The good side from a Christian perspective is “they lose”. Upon His return “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, Jesus Christ is Lord.” Give it up ya bunch of “non-believers”.
“…Schools these days permit foul and cursive language…”
Cursive language is bad? Should we all print when we talk?
You know something the Giles County School Board Members are pretty sad at taking the commandments down. You would think that members would stand to fight for the 10 Commandments in stead of chickening out and bowing down to the ACLU. First they want to take out the prayers in schools. They want to take out the Bible studies and now this. Giles County Schools are pretty sad to me. I can’t imagine what the schools are gonna be like when my granddaughter starts schools. I’m almost afraid to send her to school when its time. The school board are a bunch of chickens now. What are they gonna be like when she goes to school?? I hate to even imagine.
Comment by mrkidd — May 31, 2012 @ 10:07 pm
What are our schools gonna be like? I imagine that they will teaching reading, writing and arithmetic, social studies, and that the great cultures and religions in the United States are part of many in the world.
I imagine that everyone will be free to pray and believe and practice whatever religions they like in their homes and in their places of worship, or free not to practice religion as they so choose.
Our true creator, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, has eight “I’d Really Rather You Didn’ts” that should be posted. They certainly make much more sense than the ten commandments. Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
“How does the severe problems we have in our schools correspond with the removal of prayer from our schools? ”
Not at all?
As for those of you wailing that our “youth is lost”…speak for your own youths. Mine aren’t at all lost and do just fine, thanks. Don’t look to the schools to raise your kids for you…if they need to start their day with prayer, take 5 minutes before they leave and pray with them.
“Why do non-Christians have the ability to impose their will upon a predominately Christian nation?”
A good atheist doesn’t give a second thought to what you believe in, nor will they inhibit your ability to do so.
What you describe is the exact opposite of what is happening. Why do Christians have the ability to impose their will upon non-christians?
@Elvis Duncan: “Is that democracy?”
The United States is not a democracy.
One thing for consideration … why do most find the Ten Commandments so offensive? Is is simply a case of freedom from any religion? Is the attitude, “I don’t want to read it and you can’t make me do it?” Perhaps it is in part because Christians have tried to force feed the Word of God to those who do not appreciate, nor want to hear, it. (Matthew 7:6) You can’t force someone to love, or even agree with, God’s Word. In fact, no one can even understand the Word of God unless the Holy Spirit opens their heart. (John 14:17) Personally, I believe it is for this reason: “For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword,cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before His eyes, and He is the One to Whom we are accountable.” (Hebrews 4:12-13)
I love the Word of God … love the Ten Commandments because they remind me that without grace and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that I am helpless to make myself right with God. I appreciate seeing God’s Word displayed. But even if the Ten Commandments are never displayed, it is far more effective for me to teach my children to worship, love and obey God than it is for me to fight with their school system for not doing things “my way”.
Jesus didn’t come to change the government … He came to change the hearts of men. Even His own disciples didn’t understand this truth. But when the Holy Spirit revealed it to them, no amount of persecution could persuade them to stop preaching His name!
Dan, you KNEW we would be burning up the keyboards on this one, didn’t you? Even Matt Jameson, the Pastafarian, weighed in. Matt’s comments certainly brought a smile to my face.
Kids who are scarred by divorce and a laxity of principle growing up can appear “fine” on the surface but often carry deep-seated emotional baggage that manifests itself in adulthood.
I always think of leftwing puke Jane Fonda who bragged about how well her kids turned out. That was before her daughter Vanessa was busted for heroine possession and before her out-of-wedlock children were born.
If religion is missing from your family’s life, your kids are not fine. Trust me.
So according to all the liberals, athiests, and agnostics on this board. When we teach “Heritage” to our children in public schools..it should include:
Our Buddist, Islamic, and Atheistic principles that helped found our country.
Oh, I get it now. Thanks to all of you intellectuals for clearing that up.
Everyone is missing the point that we should teach our children the TRUTH that this country was FOUNDED on JUDEO-CHRISTIAN principles! Do we shove Christianity down their throat?..NO! But we show them where we came from and who our founding fathers were. We want to distort the history so much because we are all scared of the truth, that our kids don’t even know history and don’t understand who we are as a nation. Sure, we accept any and all religions. But a country founded on GODLESS principles we ARE NOT.
If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under. ~ Ronald Reagan
Jack, there is a real and true laugh to be had watching a guy who completely discounts the first clause of the Second Amendment parse the language and intent of the First Amendment. True irony.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” is indeed the clause in question. Now if we treat it as a single utterance sure, it ONLY could mean that ONLY Congress is prohibited and ONLY from making a law. However, there are writings, there are adjudicated decisions and there is the power of the almighty truth of history to inform us that it is not remotely ONLY what they clause means.
The people who came here seeking relief from a “state religion” wanted to be free to pursue their religion and sure they might well have been happy to insist that their religion become our “state religion” but saner heads prevailed and while a reference to a Deity and a Creator is mentioned, no hint of Christian teaching or dogma is in the Constitution. For a reason.
Secondly, it is widely known and accepted that what any representative of government does can be seen as “the government” doing it. The government owns, runs and establishes public schools, courthouses, parks and buildings so whatever is displayed is seen by “the people” as coming from “the government”.
“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” ~Thomas Jefferson, explaining the premise in his own words.
The restriction is on the government and the school and the court, not the people or the students. Post the commandments you keep, or the Sharia Law you support, or the Cross you bear, on your locker, on your notebooks, on your backpack, tattoo them on, shave them into your head, put up a billboard on your private property, no one can stop you and no one will. But the government (school) has no such right, no such freedom and no such power.
“Everyone is missing the point that we should teach our children the TRUTH that this country was FOUNDED on JUDEO-CHRISTIAN principles! Do we shove Christianity down their throat?..NO”
O the irony.
Stow it Pistol, the new display will absolutely reference your “JUDEO-CHRISTIAN principles” it just no longer lists them. Do you ever bother to pay attention teacher?
http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/309567.html
Scroll down under the dude in the blue shirt!
#93 So Jane Fonda’s daughter kidnapped Wonder Woman?
“But a country founded on GODLESS principles we ARE NOT.”
Pistol Pete, what the heck are Godless principles? Go ahead, make up some blanket statement about how people who don’t believe as you have no access to a moral or ethical framework to make them live peacefully or successfully. Love to hear it.
I always thought the majority ruled. It should have been put to a vote. The ones that wanted them there have rights too. Why don’t they get a say. And I feel that if the people that started this can’t have their names published there shouldn’t have been anything done about it. They like to make a stink but they don’t want anyone to know who is stirring it. That is definitely not right. This decision is wrong because if it had been put to a vote they would still be hanging on the wall.
“I always thought the majority ruled.”
That would be called “Mob rule” and thankfully we don’t have that here.
PP, if you’re concerned about our country’s foundation, consult your legal code. All you need to know, right there.
@Sandi,
I know it doesn’t apply only to congress, but trickles down to state and local governments as well. My point is that no law was made respecting any religion.
#94 “So according to all the liberals, athiests, and agnostics on this board …..”
So, Pistol Pete, are you implying that a liberal can’t be a Christian?
If that were so, and all of the Christians were Republican, there would never be a Democratic majority in any political arena, as most Americans say they are Christian. The Dems would consist of only agnostics, atheists and all of the other religions and thus be greatly outnumbered.
100
Good point, Teresa. Stacking the courts with ideologues has long been a weapon of the Left. The know they can’t win anything by majority vote, so they subvert the people’s will through the courts.
Pop quiz for the left: In how many states has a referendum passed a law allowing gay marriage?
Answer: ZERO. Not even in whacked-out California.
Ah, Teresa
We don’t put Constitutional principles up for a vote. This has always seemed pretty simple to me. As individuals, we are free to follow our religious convictions, whatever they may be (or not). We constrain our government from advocating for any particular religion. The examples of why this is a good idea can be seen all over the world, and throughout history. Government and religion are a toxic mix to be avoided.
Who says the Ten Commandments doesn’t speak out against homosexuality? Just look at the version of 10c Dan has posted at the top of the thread…number 10 clearly states you should not covet thy neighbors manservant or his ass! Guess it all depends on your interpretation of how it’s written huh? Just like the First Amendment, all in how you choose to interpret it. What an enormous waste of time this argument is IMO.
I always thought the majority ruled. It should have been put to a vote.
You’re sadly mistaken…we do not live in a mob-rule (aka majority rule) Democracy, and never have.
Our government is (or at least was) a Representative Republic, where voters elect people to make decisions of a legislative nature on our behalf. Officials abdicate their sworn duties when they put things to voter referrendums for the dumb masses (say it fast for full effect) of society to decide, often wrongly. Issues of a Constitutional or Civil Rights nature should never be put to a vote for the citizenry…doing so pretty much opens the door for all manner of abuses to be codified into law.
Teresa, that’s because if they were “outed” they undoubtedly would be harassed, discriminated against, and possibly injured, by Violent Christians.
It’s the only safe and responsible thing to do to remain anonymous.
@Kristen: “That would be called “Mob rule” and thankfully we don’t have that here.”
Kristen’s statement was inaccurate. It would be a “democracy,” but she is right, we do not have that here.
Teresa
The will of a majority at any given time has never , historically, been allowed to override the rights guaranteed in the Constitution or its principles. And one of those priciples is separation of church and state entities. Any individual in any Giles County School is free to worship as they please, display the ten commandments, openly pray, hold prayer groups, or do whatever they wish. But he SCHOOL as an entitty of the government does not have the right to endorse or display the religious doctrine or tenets of any individual religious faith. That is the simple truth of it. And if we had majority rule in this country, George W. Bush would not have been elected President in 2000 and President Obama’s legislative program and judicial appointments would not have been tied up in the Senate for the past 3.5 years.
#100 Heck, Teresa, majority doesn’t rule in presidential elections, otherwise we would have had President Gore. It doesn’t rule in the Senate, either, where the minority can block things from even coming to a vote.
So where was it you got this majority rules idea, Teresa?
“My point is that no law was made respecting any religion.
Comment by Jack — June 1, 2012 @ 11:17 am”
And my point is that you are not a Virginia Militia member either. So what?
Couldn’t help myself Dan. I had never seen a version of the Commandments with #10 worded that way, just struck me funny in a silly, adolescent sort of way.
“I always think of leftwing puke Jane Fonda who bragged about how well her kids turned out. That was before her daughter Vanessa was busted for heroine possession and before her out-of-wedlock children were born.
If religion is missing from your family’s life, your kids are not fine. Trust me.”
Does this apply to to that rightwank puke, Sarah Palin and her slut of a daughter, Blister, who had a child out of wedlock? Thank goodness that rightwank puke, non-religious, thrice-divorced Limpballs has no children! They’d be a bigger mess than he is!
Why just ten commandments? The Bible is filled with them. For example, God commands that we circumcise our male slaves. For some reason, He hates foreskin.
LOL, gdad! Yeah, she kidnapped the ‘heroine’ Wonder Woman and she only got a ‘nickle’ for ransom.
Suzie, does Sarah Palin brag about “how her kids turned out”?
Re: Comment by J.M.White — May 31, 2012 @ 10:04 pm
Why would teaching our children Sharia Law is a ridiculous notion, if teaching Christian Law is not a ridiculous notion?
Re: Comment by Christine Rice — June 1, 2012 @ 10:30 am
“…why do most find the Ten Commandments so offensive?”
———-
Christine,
Hold on there!
To redefine a term is, of course, to assign it a new meaning. It is not necessarily fallacious, however it is but it is a logical boobytrap that has no place in honest debate.
I, as a Christian, find the Jewish Law honorable and in no way offensive — albeit I reject lesser laws of the OT, e.g., Exodus 22:18, “Suffer not a witch to live”, which (BTW) has been followed by Christians in the past.
However, the issue here is the teaching/fostering/supporting a particular religion in a public school. Please do not try to redefine the debate beyond the issue of the role of schools in the area of religion.
Religion is being taught in public schools everyday. It’s called “secular humanism” and most of the posters on this blog are living proof of the effectiveness this type of education can have on a society. I would speculate that most of the great grandparents of the “educated” bloggers here would beg to differ with their descendant’s viewpoints about the Bible as God’s word and Jesus as the crucified, risen Savior.
But heck, they were just a bunch of uneducated fools who needed religion as a crutch. We have a much safer and healthy society now that we have overcome the concept of absolute truth and replaced it with relativism.
“#100 Heck, Teresa, majority doesn’t rule in presidential elections, otherwise we would have had President Gore. It doesn’t rule in the Senate, either, where the minority can block things from even coming to a vote.
So where was it you got this majority rules idea, Teresa?”
Comment by gdad
President Gore. Now there’s a notion and a half.
Would the 9/11 attacks have succeeded if Gore had been in office? Possibly.
But would we have had the Bush tax cuts? Unlikely.
Would we have gone after bin Laden in Afghanistan? Likely, but I doubt we would have occupied that country to 11 years.
Would we have invaded Iraq? No.
Would the housing bubble have happened? Possibly, but maybe not, if Gore had dumped Greenspan.
Put all that together, folks, and it’s not hard to reckon how much better off we’d be today if the will of the majority had prevailed in the 2000 election.
The ACLU will take care of the fascist Fourth Reich in Giles County soon enough.
Using your reasoning Dan — could 9/11 have been prevented if Dole was president in 1998 instead of Bill (I have more important women, I mean issues, to deal with than bin laden) Cinton when the WTC and U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed ? probably
Why is it that Christians have to put up with what the nonbelievers want.Last time I checked this is the land of the free home of the brave.We have to see gays out in public on tv.they get to do what they want.Have there gay stickers that they are so proud of.But we can’t have the 10 Commandments on a Wall for those who want to see them.Like someone else said funny how one family tells the rest of us what to do.If they don’t like it don’t look at it.They are probably not even from the county or even go to church.Thats why they don’t want nobody to know.But in Giles you can’t keep a secret forever.We have to deal with everybody that don’t believe in God.They want to take down the 10 Commandments but look at our kids and families.You say it up to parents to teach kids about God when half of them ant found him themselfs.they don’t have time to take them to church!why most don’t have time they say but have time for other things in life.Kids must not be learning to much at home because they would have alot cleaner mouth,would dress better and would respect there elders better.If i done what kids do now a days i would have a sore tail and bar of soap hanging out my mouth.I can say for my family after we found God we have been blessed.So maybe all that want to say no to God just try going to a church in your hometown for a month and see what you are missing,you may be shocked how good it is to turn your life over to God.
Wow…even people that I consider fairly intelligent, though I disagree with them at times, just don’t get this issue. This thread is depressing as heck.
It simply is not hard to understand why the Commandments needed to come off the wall of the public school. It’s ridiculous that we are even discussing it.
I would greatly appreciate it if the Christians who have posted here saying that they will pray for all of us, would please pray for something a bit more important for all of humanity than whether or not we are agreeing about a legal issue over which there should be zero debate.
Truly, this just makes me ill.
It is a shame that such great time and efforts were used to pursue this. There are a lot more SERIOUS issues that could have been addressed with this type of effort. Helping the homeless, jobs, charities…. Simply unbelievable!
100 Theresa – your comments are precisely why the majority do not rule. We have a representative government that is designed to protect the rights of the minority as well as the majority. That is why it is so silly when politicians want to put items in a referendum. A referendum is used by the politician to avoid doing their elected job and instead bowing to the majority rule. We elect the leaders to make the tough decisions that are right and just; not to do the will of the majority. The majority gets their say each time they vote by electing good leaders that will make those tough decisions.
I was entlrely accurate, Jack. Please show me where my term was inaccurate? I’m not sure that the entire definition of “democracy” is tied up in “majority rule”.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
And look…it’s not! But thanks for the assist there, Jack.
You guys crack me up.
So it is OK (like Sandi Said) to display the Textbook page showing that we are a nation of Judeo Christian values, and also an IMAGE of the Ten Commandments and the quote:
“The Values found in the bible, including the Ten Commandments, and the Teachings of JESUS inspired American ideas about government and morality”
***This CHRISTIAN explanation of our HERITAGE is acceptable?
***However just a historical document posting of the commandments is not.
Im sure Sandi or Kristen will clarify.
We’re also heading into a time in the ntdf in which caucasians of European descent will not longer be in the majority here. This might curb enthusiasm for the “najority rules” POV.
will,
I wonder if, in Galileo’s day, the scientific observations he made (which challenged the Catholic orthodoxy and got him locked up for life) were considered secular humanism. Or were they termed the work of the devil?
You would think that for the sake of consistency, the fundamentalists would still be arguing that Galileo was wrong and the Bible is right. But they don’t do that. Why?
@Sandi: “And my point is that you are not a Virginia Militia member either. So what?”
My brain is hurting right now, but it seems, according to US Code, that I am.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311
will@120 “Religion is being taught in public schools everyday. It’s called “secular humanism” ”
So will, who funds these so called “secular humanists” and their school curriculum? It’s funny, cause I kinda see myself as secular humanist, and I happen to work in elementary school, but don’t ever recall anyone asking me to work on the secular humanist curriculum.
I do however, witness a weekly exodus of young children across the parking lot to the outskirts of the school property where I’m told they participate in a weekday religious education program, which is presumably Christian.
Obviously you think your particular religion has a monopoly on ethics and morality. You don’t. It’s a lie often told to congregations to tout their supposed moral superiority, but it is a lie just the same.
@Kristen,
Then why wasn’t Gore a President? If we were a democracy, we would honor the votes of every citizen and not those of a faithless elector.
In 2000, Elector Barbara Lett-Simmons didn’t cast any of the electoral votes on behalf of the District of Columbia. It didn’t effect the outcome of the election, but none of the votes counted for anything.
Will of the people? Not quite. Not a democracy when your votes can be discarded.
FWIIW, I’m surprised that someone hasn’t complained about the version used — not only Exodus 20 2-17 v. Deuteronomy 5:6-21 but also the Traditional Roman Catholic Denomination’s Catechetical Formula (which last I checked was used by some Lutheran Denominations. Then, of course, we have the Philonic division v. the Talmudic division v. the Augustinian division.
See the Traditional RC Catechetical Formula @ the following from the Vatican: http://tinyurl.com/m3v8g
But, hold the presses. If this is a Christian issue why did not Matthew 19:16-19 trump the OT?
**
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
**
Or Mark 10:17-19? Or Luke 18:18-20?
So, even within Christianity, how many versions need to be posted?
As an aside why not the Hebrew version http://tinyurl.com/7my8opn ? (But should that be with or without vowel marks and word breaks, in Aramaic square script or one of the earlier fonts, etc?)
or the Paleo Hebrew version of the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone See: http://tinyurl.com/57t9q2
or the stone from the 1957 Movie Production of The Ten Commandments see: http://tinyurl.com/77mpmyq
Why should just one sect get to pick their preferred version?
#104 “The know they can’t win anything by majority vote, so they subvert the people’s will through the courts.”
Pretty funny remark considering what happened in the 2000 election, troll suzie.
#93 most ill informed posted, “If religion is missing from your family’s life, your kids are not fine. Trust me”. Comment by Suzie — June 1, 2012 @ 10:43 am
Says the person without children, who uses the most unchristian language on this blog and who relegates Christian beliefs into racist, demeaning and hateful speech.
“Trust” you? I wouldn’t trust you if your hand was on the bible.
I would be willing to bet that the citizens of Giles County have been praying for the commandments to be allowed to be displayed, so it’s only a matter of time before they will be back on the wall. Heck, Rick Perry used that method to end the drought in Texas!
#120 will, my great grandparents also probably believe that anybody who wasn’t Christian should go find another country and that black folk needed to remember their place. Some of them probably believed that lefthanders were the work of the devil.
Pistol Pete, you should not be teaching our children. I already did “clarify” my position on the new page in comment #32! If you cannot keep up, go away. That is a compromise that both sides should be able to live with IMO. Unless of course (as it appears) your only goal IS religious indoctrination and has nothing to do with our “history”.
“Contrasuzie says,
Does this apply to to that rightwank puke, Sarah Palin and her slut of a daughter, Blister, who had a child out of wedlock? Thank goodness that rightwank puke, non-religious, thrice-divorced Limpballs has no children! They’d be a bigger mess than he is!
Posted on June 1st, 2012″
————-
“Sandi Saunders says:
Suzie, does Sarah Palin brag about “how her kids turned out”?
Posted on June 1st, 2012″
————-
Uh-oh, Sandi! Now you have joined gdad and I as being the same person, according to Screwzie’s conspiracy theory!
Sandi, I dont teach children…
I indoctrinate them..;)
Jack, look at the definition above. Exercising power directly OR indirectly. There is more to the definition of “democracy” than “mob rule”.
You were inaccurate. Ruling by simple majority is “mob rule”. A democracy – whether we have one or not, ymmv, we probably don’t IMO – involves more than simple majority deciding everything.
PP, this country was populated by people running from the church.
“The Values found in the bible, including the Ten Commandments, and the Teachings of JESUS inspired American ideas about government and morality”
If my kids ever brought home something posing as a “textbook” that had this in it, I’d laugh and enlighten them. But in fact, on the same page is listed the “enlightenment” as being a source of inspiration ( a term that I’m sure had a few heads scratching down in Giles), the pagan Greeks and Romans,the Magna Carta, and a few other pictures and words my eyes can’t decipher from the front page. And the 10 cs are represented by a couple of basically blank shapes with some Hebrew on them.
So the 10 cs/’religion’ are just being given a seat at a the table with a plethora of other roots and foundations for what we call Amercia today.
IMO anyway, that’s closer to accurate. And what they’re doing has a LOT more integrity than bargaining a few Commandments away.
Josh, were you being satirical?
@Kristen: “Exercising power directly OR indirectly.”
How did the voters in Washington DC exercise power, directly OR indirectly, in the 2000 Presidential election?
Yes, they should remove the “10 Commandments.” There are really only 2 potentially useful “commandments” – don’t steal and don’t murder (and we don’t need the 10 Commandments for these).
As for “The values found in the Bible, including the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus, inspired American ideas about government and morality.” – which “values” in the Bible are they referring to – slavery, misogyny, racism, genocide, theft, superstition, magical thinking, etc. that occupy much of the Bible? And there is nothing I can see in the OT or NT that influenced the establishment of a representative republic in America. As far as morality, I can see how the Bible was used to justify the poor treatment/genocide of the native Americans as well as justify slavery.
The Bible may have been useful for a primitive society thousands of years ago, but it is esseentially worthless for today’s society.
Dan – the Bible never says the Earth is flat or that the universe revolves around it. These views came from miss-interpretation of scripture by the Roman Catholic Church and are only 2 examples of many that the Roman Catholic Church is wrong about. The Bible does say the heavens declare the glory of God.
If you want to be intellectually honest Dan, why don’t we look at all the evidence (historical, scientific, archeologocal, prophetic, eye witness accounts, etc) that prove the Bible’s accuracy? INCLUDING that the Earth is round.
You need to study the Bible for yourself before you pass judgement on what it does or doesn’t say.
139.#120 will, my great grandparents also probably believe that anybody who wasn’t Christian should go find another country and that black folk needed to remember their place. Some of them probably believed that lefthanders were the work of the devil.
Comment by gdad — June 1, 2012 @ 2:48 pm
gdad – you are definitely carrying on the family tradition of prejudice, bigotry and intolerance by way of your animosity toward anything you view as “Christian”. Obviously the nut doesn’t fall too far from the tree.
Karita, Christians have rights…the same ones we Atheists have….and so does everyone else. It is my right to be able to send my children to a SECULAR school and not have them exposed to your god that had so many killed in his name. So I feel that you religious folk need to keep your god in your churches and homes and out of my children’s heads.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”.
I find it repulsive that democracy or our morals are claimed to be taken from anything in the bible. All people have essentially the same morals regardless of their religion or lack there-of. I resent anyone saying that the bible is or ever was our inspiration. And if you take a serious look at the founding “fathers,” they were not especially invested in the christian bible, a couple even wrote their own versions of the bible. They feared bible worshippers because they had seen with their own eyes the evils and hippocracy of those people when they gain power and control. Democracy is definately not a part of religion if you look at history.
The way I see it GOD and the majority wins, minority non believers loose….Hey we made the front page today in the Roanoke Times!!
Since this started, I’ve never seen so much public and personal display of GODS Ten Commanndments ….murals,bumper,stickers,shirts,magnetic displays etc.
It’s got people who may have never even looked at the ten commandments to actually stop and read them to see what all the fuss was about, pretty good rules to live by aren’t they!
Our great country was founded on Christian beliefs and IN GOD WE TRUST-Nothing’s changed! Pray for the lost!
“GOD BLESS AMERICA AND THANK YOU JESUS”
“I resent anyone saying that the bible is or ever was our inspiration. And if you take a serious look at the founding “fathers,””
And don’t forget, it was four years after the Jamestown settlers got here when the Bible was even translated into English, much less a paperback for every coffee table that wanted one.
150 Will,
Creator? your definition or mine…see the issue?
@Jack #73: Let me try again…
If the school board — a government entity — favors one religion over others by posting that religions tenets in a school, that is regarded as government-sanctioned. And our Constitution forbids it. Read the friggin’ First!
@104: Hey, racist Suzie! Think a referendum on granting slaves their freedom would have passed anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon Line? Hell, I bet it wouldn’t have passed in 1965, much less in 1865. Your point is moot. Go sit down.
Well of course you are Jack! Touche.
Most of our “founding fathers” may have been religious, but as many also owned slaves. Cherry pick much?
John Wilburn, I get your point. The King James Version of the Bible was first printed in 1611 that is true, but it was at least 160 years before the Declaration of Independence and 175 years before the Constitution. Plenty of time for the Bible, religion and the lexicon of the Ten Commandments to influence the Founders/Framers. And even before it was a book they could read, it was a religion that was taught in churches.
I do not see any reason to deny that when they wrote the words “that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” they meant God. The Founders/Framers were, on the main, not only religious but deeply so. (which makes the slave holders even harder to accept) I do not think anyone is helped by refusing to acknowledge they were men of their times. Visionaries in many ways, mired in the times in many others. That was the reality.
Otherwise, the court houses, the legal precedents, and yes many wrong headed religious dogma influences would NEVER have been allowed much less embraced.
One of my personal biggest peeves is people who act like they know what the founders/framers felt and believed. We did not live then, we did not risk what they did and we cannot be sure. We have only their writings and subsequent governmental and societal roles to go on and denying their religious belief just is not credible IMO.
That being said, there is nothing to prove they were especial Christians. They were most likely Deists. They did not want a ‘state religion’ and they did mostly believe in a separation of church and state on an intrinsic level. That should remain the focus. It is a bridge too far to say religion or faith in a Creator did not impact their thinking or that the Ten Commandments were lost on them.
I think the evidence is there that the Judeo-Christian ethic was influential.
I will tell you one thing I’ve observed in this thread:
When Dan’s columns get front-page on Roanoke.com, there are some very interesting comments posted by people who rarely come back to defend their positions. i.e. they are just spouting off, and not really hoping to engage people in debate.
In those spout-offs. Their arguments, while validly their own opinions, are so bad, they simply can’t be defended. In particular, all the people coming out thinking the protesting people are “offended” by the 10 commandments, when its people being offended at the notion that the gov’t is sanctioning one flavor of religion. I think it would be an extremely RARE bird to be offended by any of the commandments themselves. Then there’s the false notion that this is a Judeo-Christian nation (it’s not), and everything else. All these one-off posters are LAUGHABLE.
At least the one guy who quoted Richard Dawkins #64 was hilarious. I had never heard that quote, but it was worth repeating today to many people.
“I dont teach children…
I indoctrinate them”
We know.
(Skip the trailer)
Heroine=heroin back in #93.
Although I needn’t have corrected. None of you leftwing ‘tards knew the difference.
Says the person without children, who uses the most unchristian language on this blog and who relegates Christian beliefs into racist, demeaning and hateful speech.
“Trust” you? I wouldn’t trust you if your hand was on the bible.
I think we hit a nerve. Hillary has already said she dropped out of the Catholic Church.
I’ll admit. Following its strict rules can be tough.
“Many are called, but few are chosen”.
@104: Hey, racist Suzie! Think a referendum on granting slaves their freedom would have passed anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon Line? Hell, I bet it wouldn’t have passed in 1965, much less in 1865. Your point is moot. Go sit down
It would have eventually passed. It’s funny how righteousness ultimately prevails as people’s views change. Like with abortion. Conservatives are once again the leaders (as we always are) in getting public opinion to change in the direction of righteousness. Each year more and more people oppose the barbaric liberal neanderthal practice.
Roe vs. Wade will eventually go to the ash heap of history, the way of the three-fifths compromise, slavery, and Japanese internment. And it will be conservatives that see it through.
Isn’t it ironic the libs don’t want religion in government but don’t have any trouble with polling venues located in churches?
I can see it now. Some idiot wearing a “Keep Religion out of Government” button as he walks into the church to vote.
“Heroine=heroin back in #93.
Although I needn’t have corrected. None of you leftwing ‘tards knew the difference.”
It was so boneheaded that it was hard NOT to notice. But it wasn’t worth a “nickle” of our time to bother raising the issue.
“@104: Hey, racist Suzie! Think a referendum on granting slaves their freedom would have passed anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon Line? Hell, I bet it wouldn’t have passed in 1965, much less in 1865. Your point is moot. Go sit down”
Comment by Saintbridge
It would have eventually passed. It’s funny how righteousness ultimately prevails as people’s views change. Like with abortion. Conservatives are once again the leaders (as we always are) in getting public opinion to change in the direction of righteousness. Each year more and more people oppose the barbaric liberal neanderthal practice.
Comment by Suzie
Of course, in Virginia, almost 100 years after the end of the Civil War, it was still illegal for blacks and whites to marry, and, if they already had married in another state, it was illegal for them to sleep together. One of the commonwealth’s counties had closed its schools rather than allow desegregation.
So, would such a referendum have “eventually passed?” Perhaps. Would it have “eventually passed” by now? Hard to say. Might have taken another 100 years. After all, look what happened just a few years ago on the referendum on gay marriage.
After all, look what happened just a few years ago on the referendum on gay marriage.
In which state, red or blue, has gay marriage passed a referendum?
But it wasn’t worth a “nickle” of our time to bother raising the issue.
Even the libs are now piling on Kristen for her little gaffe. LOL.
{Taking bow}. Girl is more influential than SNL.
Suzie, do you have a waking thought that does not involve me? Try harder.
Does she have a waking thought that doesn’t involve this blog, period?
I have a few titles for Suzie’s reading pleasure:
1. god Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, by Christopher Hitchens
2. The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins
3. The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, by Bobby Henderson
4. The Holy Bible, by ?
Does she have a waking thought that doesn’t involve this blog, period?
Remember this is the chick posting at 3:33 a.m. about someone else’s pyschoses. Oh, the irony. LOL.
Suzie, do you have a waking thought that does not involve me? Try harder.
Dan’s the one who invoked you, sweets.
#172 Matt Jameson,
You must be new here; everybody already know suz ain’t real keen on that whole reading’ idea. Can those books be had in the “younger readers” versions with big pictures and less words? If not than I suggest waiting until they come out on books on tape and than re-recommend them to her.
suz isn’t much into the notion of the whole broadening her horizons thingy (facts have such a liberal bias!) so you really need to dumb down content for her. I’ve got a brick in my back yard that you’ll have better luck getting to read a book than you well with suz.
Matt, she can’t read. She can only type.
#169 Hey, suze, have you been shootin’ up some “heroine” or something? Ah well, at least Kristen has a work “etheric.”
Irony isn’t your strong suit, Narcissist Sue.
#178 No it isn’t, Debbie. Once again da suze demonstrates she hasn’t the foggiest idea what irony is. She probably thinks the song “Ironic” is chock full of examples of irony.
gdad, that song bugs the heck out of me exactly for that reason.
The Board was initially wrong in posting the 10 commandments.
Most of these violations of the separation clause are caused by ignorant people who are under the false impression that the US is a ‘Christian country’. The US is NOT a ‘Christian country’. Our Constitution is secular and governments, at all levels, have no place in prescribing prayer, religious observance, or posting religious/cult symbols etc.
Nobody is saying these people can’t practice their religion or other superstitious beliefs………. we are just saying: “Don’t superimpose them on me”.
Besides………. when posting the “Ten Commandments” it is not clear which ones we are talking about. Are we talking about Horus’s 10 Commandments………. after all he was born of a virgin on Dec 25th, had 12 followers, was crucified and resurrected 3 days later etc etc …… all 1,500 years B.C.E. So is this Christian 10 Commandments not a plagurized version of Horus’s. (Horus’s history is literally carved in stone in Egyptian tombs.) If an agency wants to post “historical documents” then post the original………. Horus’s 10 Commandments.
Re: Comment by Jack — June 1, 2012 @ 2:18 pm
it seems, according to US Code, that I am.
——–
Jack,
Check out Virginia law, also. http://tinyurl.com/2c8jy4
**
§ 44-1. Composition of militia.
The militia of the Commonwealth of Virginia shall consist of all able-bodied residents of the Commonwealth who are citizens of the United States and all other able-bodied persons resident in the Commonwealth who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, who are at least 16 years of age and, except as hereinafter provided, not more than 55 years of age. The militia shall be divided into four classes: the National Guard, which includes the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard; the Virginia Defense Force; the naval militia; and the unorganized militia.
**
The TC should never have been posted in the school. It’s amazing that administrators would even try to defend such illegal behavior. It’s not a fuzzy area, there aren’t two sides: it’s illegal.
Conversely, however, *students* are free to engage in a wide range of speech and if any of them wished to put up the Ten Commandments on an individual locker they would be well within their rights to do so.
Whether the proposal to put up the page from the history book– which seems pretty low brow for an 11th grade history class, but that’s beside the point– will prove problematic remains to be seen.
“pyschoses.”
Oh dear. And so early in the day, too. Tragic.
Gdad, don’tcha know, left handers ARE the work of the devil. David Wilson is the proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J2HW-jobsA
However, if one left hander marries another, they cancel each other out, and all is good.
If David Wilson can’t make it as an NFL running back (which I’m sure he will), I’d love to see him pitch for Boston. !)
#162 Didn’t know the difference, suzie? Why do you think I posted this?
#93 So Jane Fonda’s daughter kidnapped Wonder Woman?”
But I’m sure THAT one went right over your head.
“Suzie says:
But it wasn’t worth a “nickle” of our time to bother raising the issue.
Even the libs are now piling on Kristen for her little gaffe. LOL.
{Taking bow}. Girl is more influential than SNL.
Posted on June 2nd, 2012″
Screwzie, I know you know this, but since you want to pretend like you don’t, let me explain it. We aren’t ‘piling on’ Kristen; we’re making fun of YOU for not knowing how to spell heroin after you made such a big deal out of a typo.
“Heck, Rick Perry used that method [praying] to end the drought in Texas!”
Worked just as well for him in the primaries….
Banana Hammock, hilarious name. Wonder how many here even know what that is?…. Anyway, atheists always have the best sense of humor! How offended are you by “In God We Trust” on coins and currency? It’s the concession most atheists make the least fuss about. Just curious.
Sandi, please don’t start a post with my name. It puts my name right next to that horrid Obama logo.
Suzie says “Many are called, but few are chosen”. And you expect us to believe that you were “chosen” by anyone on this earth or in Heaven?
Yep, that is some kind of “pyschoses”, blister!
Contra is right, “we’re making fun of YOU for not knowing how to spell heroin after you made such a big deal out of a typo” you had made yourself! Blister, you need help. Your “pyschoses” is showing. “Oh, the irony. LOL.”
#169 Hey, suze, have you been shootin’ up some “heroine” or something?
Too late, moron. You wouldn’t have noticed the typo if I hadn’t corrected it.
Maybe Suzie was that gal nabbed with 300 bags on 81. She has finally learned how to spell Rush’s favorite dope!
You see, this blog performs a public service every day.
John Wilburn, I will be sure to do so from now on, even it the post is responding to someone else! Way to go!
Suzie, you spelled “nickle” wrong and days later picked a whole thread (multiple days) fight over it when someone else did and now you think you can call anyone else a “moron” or even late to the punch party? Look in the mirror and you will see the moron.
“Something I see in teen boys that is not only disturbing but a little grotesque –ear gauges. These are holes in the ear lobe the size of a nickle or quarter that holds a hollow or solid ear piece. If I had a boy like that, I’d get counseling for him pronto.
Comment by Suzie — April 25, 2011 @ 8:44 pm”
http://blogs.roanoke.com/dancasey/2011/04/a-masticating-monday-open-thread/
John Wilburn, sorry for the typo, I will use your name first, even when I am correcting a post too. In the earlier post I meant to say: I will be sure to do so from now on, even if the post is responding to someone else!
Thanks for another opportunity to pair your name with my logo. Always happy to oblige.
Maybe Suzie was that gal nabbed with 300 bags on 81. She has finally learned how to spell Rush’s favorite dope!
Not Rush. You’re obviously thinking of Monkey Boy’s favorite drug. Was it heroin or blow?
The funny thing about this is the boy and mother has found God.The boy is now studying to be a preacher.Hows that for the news.what people do to start alot of trouble for the county.
Hey Suzie? *”Nickle” for your thoughts?
*connotes gross overpayment.
#190 “You wouldn’t have noticed the typo if I hadn’t corrected it.
“As I’ve already pointed out, I noticed the misspelling LOOOONG before you pointed it out. However, you were too dense to get the reference to your misspelling.
Suzie #93: “That was before her daughter Vanessa was busted for heroine possession…”
gdad #98: “#93 So Jane Fonda’s daughter kidnapped Wonder Woman?”
#162: suzie belatedly makes the correction after its been referred to several times.
Sorry, toots, I beat you to the punch by 64 posts and 11 hours. What a froob.
Now let’s talk about your inability to understand the meaning of irony.
“Remember this is the chick posting at 3:33 a.m. about someone else’s pyschoses. Oh, the irony. LOL.”
That is not irony. Brush up on your literary devices.
I was expecting the next phrase to be “for all intensive purposes”.
Gross.
#199 Mike, suzie thinks the song “Ironic” is actually filled with examples of irony. Pitiful.
Yokels, ignoramuses, racists, and bullies are all synonyms for those in Giles County refusing to recognize the constitutional separation of church and state. Having to fork over an estimated $400k in a “settled law” loser case was the deciding factor in removal of a religious icon – so, at least these elected officials recognized their budgetary constraints in a time of fiscal austerity. Were it not for the age of electronic transparency – this backward county would still be playing “Dixie” at football games. A civics lesson was taught, rabid parents are reminded that religion is taught in the home, and a graduating senior receives the gift of knowing that right trumps might.
suzie is doing a lot of fleeing from threads these days. In this one, she realizes how badly she screwed up not only misspelling heroin but then thinking she was the first one to point it out, so she simply had to disappear out of pure embarrassment. Good to see you know when to quit, toots.
While reading volumes of religious history – it has been awe inspiring to find the number of religious zealots throughout history who preferred torture, burning at the stake, decapitation or other terrifying and contrived ways to murder these “true believers”. Rather than convert, denounce “their” god or show remorse for their beliefs they went to death,[see Jesus], embracing the persecution. Unlike the “believers” in the 10 Commandments in Giles County, where the threat of a $400,000 legal bill can weaken their faith and dispel their principle – the faithful would often go to their own demise rather than repudiate their religious beliefs thus retaining the tenets of their faith.
Is this just practicality of the “faithful” in Giles Co , or is theirs a pseudo-faith for political reasons – and so
easily abandoned on a monetary threat? If they weren’t ready to ‘go to the mat’ on this matter, why did they make it such a big issue? Why foment such division in a small community – to what purpose?
Hillary makes the quintessential good point of “…why did they make it such a big issue?” Virginia has a checkered past of disregarding settled law and fighting long, protracted, expensive legal battles – e.g. public school desegregation and VMI’s all-male student body. I think Giles County thought it could secure more time for itself in the religious spotlight in this loser cause and egregious assault on our Constitution. Fortunately, in this era of transparency, this became a national issue with ACLU interest and secured a quick resolution. Liberty Law School (Is it even accredited?)was the fomenter of passion when it volunteered free legal representation but backed off when the probability of a huge monetary judgment against Giles County quickly came into view. Those Giles Countians were duped and are now the fodder of yokel caricature…Yawn…
You so called Christians don’t you have the gutts to stand up and be counted. You have businesses in Giles county. People outed to stop going to these places of business and when you start to loss money see what side you take. Everything is about who you are. You will stand in front of God and when you have to tell God you wouldn’t be able to. This country was build on Christ. You people don ‘t deserve to be on the board. It’s like Washington they need to get rid of all the people and get in people that believes and do4s the will of God. SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE.
…Yawn…Need I expound more on “yokel caricature?”
Case Closed:
Constitution – 1
Ten Commandments – 0
If communities facing this were to respond with a blanket of personal messages on their cars, clothes, and yards; many of these attacks would stop. Can you imagine what would happen if communities started to display items or make copies of items from this website: ZAZZLE.COM/HARPAZO*
By removing the 10 commandments from your school building won’t change the minds of those that believe. We will still stand up for what we believe. Unfortunately, this America has become a place where the whines of those that threaten, seem to win. Or tie us up financially until we break. Personally, I’d like to see them tarred and feathered. But they will know God on day and plea their case in front of God.