Thursday’s column: Va. Occupy groups to converge on Roanoke
A few of the members of Occupy Roanoke, at their regular perch in Elmwood Park, last month at their 6-month anniversary. | Shot by Dan
When I dropped by Occupy Roanoke’s daylight encampment in Elmwood Park on Saturday, the group was at a temporary impasse.
Its rules require the presence of at least 15 members for a vote on spending more than $50. There was a motion on the table to purchase an iPhone for communication purposes. But there weren’t 15 members around.
That’s unlikely to be an issue this weekend. Occupy Roanoke is hosting the very first Occupy Virginia “statewide general assembly” in Highland Park. Representatives of Occupy groups from Portsmouth, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Staunton, Harrisonburg, Northern Virginia, Richmond and Radford are expected.
They’ll gather in the Alexander-Gish House, where they’ll focus on strengthening bonds as a statewide organization and coordinate future actions and events. Also joining them will be representatives from Roanoke Valley union locals, gay rights activists, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and a veterans group.
It won’t necessarily be a big rally. Bernard Alvarez, a spokesman for Occupy Roanoke, estimated a crowd of fewer than 100. That includes about 20 to 30 people from Occupy groups elsewhere in Virginia, he said.
Weather permitting, most of the visitors will be pitching tents at the Roanoke Mountain campground off the Blue Ridge Parkway.
The group chose Highland Park, rather than its traditional Elmwood Park headquarters, because it doesn’t want to get in the way of Local Colors, the annual diversity festival slated for Elmwood Park this weekend, Alvarez said. Gish House will provide cover for the meeting in case of rain.
Following the all-day meeting in the park, they plan to stage an off-the-cuff “march” through Roanoke on Saturday night, beginning at the Mayors Monument in Elmwood Park and proceeding down Jefferson Street, Campbell Avenue and Williamson Road.
They don’t have a parade permit, but “we’ve worked it out with the cops so that if we stagger groups of people, there won’t be a problem,” Alvarez said. The police “have been very generous with us, quite honestly.”
READ THE REST OF THIS COLUMN HERE
May 17, 2012 - 6:00 AM
Nice tent they are standing under! I wonder what commune made it for them???
**golf clap**
“Also joining them will be representatives from Roanoke Valley union locals, gay rights activists, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and ‘a’ veterans group.”
Nah…we’re not Leftists.
Nah…not one bit. This is a NEW gig! Really! Organic…grass-roots!
Bull-schnitzel.
Occupy Roanoke is yet another lackey of the Democrat Socialist Party.
Belee dat.
Dan
All kidding aside, that was the saddest article you have ever written. These poor people are so lost. It’s fun to rip on Elizabeth Warren because she can defend herself well. There is nothing funny about denigrating those who society has left behind.I wish these people well and all the happiness they can muster from this weekend.
And terps will be there studying their pooping habits, trash disposal, where they sleep, and whether any little kids were frightened. I’m sure we’ll get a full — thought not necessarily accurate — report.
terps,
I’d suggest that you go down there and meet them yourself on Saturday. But in doing that, you’d run the risk of destroying the cherished stereotypes you’ve created about them in your imagination. And the resulting dissonance might drive you stark raving mad.
Thank you, Dan, for this article. As one of the “core” members, it’s nice to see something positive about Occupy in print. And terps, come on down and talk to us. We may have more in common than you think, if you can open your mind. We’re not contagious. Heck, we rarely even bite. And we promise to clean up the poop and untie the kids before you get there.
“I’d suggest that you go down there and meet them yourself on Saturday. But in doing that, you’d run the risk of destroying the cherished stereotypes you’ve created about them in your imagination. And the resulting dissonance might drive you stark raving mad.”
Exactly the same can be said for VCDL events.
Dan
Until today, I always thought there was an element to the OWS stuff that was funny. Months ago,prominent democrats like Obama and Pelosi were propping them up and they seemed like a fun liberal target. If there is no humor in the subject, then I’m not interested.
I have always hated those who pick on the defenseless. The folks left at OWS have good hearts and I wish them all the best. There is nothing fun or funny about picking on them anymore and, in a personal way, I would do anything to help any of them.
A group that despises corporations and the evil rich want to buy an iPhone.
Oh, the irony…
I’m not entirely certain how “society has left me behind”, terps. You’d need to elaborate on that particular statement to better explain the intent of your message.
I’ll be honest, “society” often disappoints me in how it handles multiple situations and dilemmas… and the best I can do is push for greater awareness of those problems and push for viable solutions that are as equitable as possible for everyone.
I would have to agree with Dan that you should actually come to an Occupy, whether it be this event or one of our regular Saturdays. You’d be surprised… and, hell, one of the more conservative posters to this blog has come down to talk with us and we had a pretty decent and friendly conversation and discussion.
As for the first post by C Hunter…
There is a common misconception that Occupy is against the very existence of corporations; however, that belief is based more on media spin and opponents of Occupy trying to pigeon hole it into something it is not.
Occupy is against corporate money and influence in the political realm. Great concern exists in regards to the power of a corporation exceeding the sovereignty of the people. We’re not exist the buying and selling of goods and commodities; rather, we’re against the purchasing of political power for the gain of an entity over the problems that could cause for society and the people within it. We’d prefer we elect our leadership and have them work for their constituents, with the greatest regard for the population, not pandering to those few who can provide them favorable accommodations based on their positions.
Let’s face it, that’s an issue for all sides. Wouldn’t you prefer your elected representative not make decisions based on a liberal-oriented PAC or corporation wants to see enacted? Those entities should not be the ones calling the shots and keeping their favored politicians in power. As voters, we should be the ones with that amount of power and control.
p.s. We purchased our canopy tent from a store, just like everyone else.
Correction in my previous post: “We’re not exist…” should be “We’re not against…”. It certainly makes more sense, doesn’t it?
p.s. Liberal Commie Leftists make writing mistakes like Conservative Fascist Rightwingers. Go fig.
Yes, thank you Dan for today’s column. I’ve become a core member of the group and have finally found a community where I fit in here in Roanoke, a city that isn’t so kind to newcomers…and I’ve lived here almost 8 years, so it’s not like I haven’t had plenty of time looking to meet people. So yes, please come visit us, my 2 year old son is out there w/ us on most Sunday’s and he’s quite friendly, loves high fives and hugs, but does bite on occasion.
Society hasn’t quite left me behind terps, I have a job, decent health coverage (plus a ton of medical bills I can barely afford to pay), and still live paycheck to paycheck. And Michael, no iPhone here, I can’t afford one, even if CREDO mobile did offer them.
6
Dan, et al…I’ve met these people…in person. Individually. I’ve also shared opinions with them online. Everytime (never fails) they say “Why don’t you come down here and talk with us?”
At which point I say…”I have.”
Usually, this “invitation” is lobbed after a debate (they lost)…and after they have called me several names. (I am okay with it)
It comes off as a veiled threat, frankly.
When I HAVE gone to meet them in person, I went down and hung out within 10 feet of their “occupation” for about 10 minutes. Smiling…not doing anything unusual. NOBODY came up to talk to me, so I decided to introduce myself to a few of them.
I had a conversation with a few. One in particular is a very nice guy. Smart guy. I don’t view him as anything other than mis-guided. I blame his parent(s).
Not “bad” people…just lost and selfish. They all spoke of variations of Statism. The clear bottom line was this…they WANT MORE for themselves.
GREED.
The Roanoke crew is definitely better behaved than the infamous front-porch crappers in NYC, and the Starbucks Coffee vandals…but…they are EQUALLY oblivious to the reality of their FAILED statist ideology that historically leads to virtual slavery and authoritarian dictatorship.
Terps, feel free to poke fun, if that’s to your enjoyment. We joke amongst ourselves and aren’t so serious that we can’t take a little ribbing. Obviously, not everyone is going to agree with Occupy or its members; however, that doesn’t mean we can’t have civil and jocular discourse.
Nope, can’t have a cheap Trac Phone from Walmart…it’s gotta be an iPhone.
Someone wants an iPhone and wants someone else to pay for it. How typical of Liberals.
Sorry…I can’t stop laughing about it!
#10 There’s absolutely no “irony” involved, Michael. But thanks for showing us all your ignorance anyway.
I have to add…I DO agree that there is WAY too much “corporate” money and influence in politics. Our “reps” hardly represent our interests.
BUT…I put UNIONS in the exact same category. They have way too much influence.
If the ONLY issue that Occupy rallied around was this…they might have seen more support.
But, they have become just like every other Leftist activist group. IMO.
“Liberal Commie Leftists make writing mistakes like Conservative Fascist Rightwingers. Go fig.”
That’s a dividing statement.
“a city that isn’t so kind to newcomers…and I’ve lived here almost 8 years”
Wow, I completely disagree. I’ve also been here 8 years (children as well) and have found Roanoke to be an absolutely phenomenal place to raise my family and live. Initially I planned on moving out after two years, found/made some great opportunities and friends and have no intention of leaving.
Katrina
God bless you and I am glad you have found a group that you enjoy. There are nonprofits in town who work with folks who have onerous medical bills. Contact Dan if you need help and I will get Dan the information.
LC,
The notion that corporations and unions have equal influence over politics is horribly misguided. If it was true, union membership wouldn’t be at an all-time low in this country; governors across the land wouldn’t be going after schoolteachers (the largest single block of government employee); and Congress wouldn’t be working so hard to shut down the U.S. Postal Service for the sole purpose of destroying the union that most of its workers belong to.
You must realize that the former balance is horribly out of whack. And in the long run, that’s going to be bad.
BTW, when they shut down the postal processing center in Roanoke this year (if they shut it down, which appears likely) that is $1.5 million or more in annual payroll to middle-class families that is going to go “poof!” and disappear, Just about every dime of that money gets spent in the local economy.
Dan,
The veterans group you mentioned that will be attending…which one is it?
Michael,
To clarify, Occupy is looking to purchase an iPhone with its own money. No one else is paying for it. It’s not for an individual, but rather for the need of a portable streaming device. It is, after all, the Age of the Internet and we have more armchair members than we do physically active ones.
As for LC’s “wanting more for themselves”… well, true, you got us. Everyone wants more, it’s a pretty standard human quality. That being said, our version is more of having an access to more. Opportunity should not be the sole grounds for those with the greatest wealth; rather, we should all have access to those opportunities. That doesn’t mean we should get them or be guaranteed something (beyond basic human needs), but it does mean that someone from the “wrong” side of the tracks shouldn’t be limited in comparison to someone born into prosperity.
Let’s face it… that’s how things work. The more affluent one’s family, the better the options one has. As the divide between the classes continues to grow, the disparity becomes more prevalent. Is that a good or acceptable situation? No, from my perspective, it is not and can only lead to, as you put it, “virtual slavery and authoritarian dictatorship”.
We need to find a solution to correct the problems associated with the outliers, the extreme end of the “haves” and the “have nots” that both take advantage of our system for personal gain, while the majority of us in the middle bear the brunt of the fallout. “Fair” is a subjective term, but something more equitable and beneficial to *everyone*… now that would be awesome, wouldn’t it?
@20: Certainly, it would be a dividing statement, if meant in a form other than jest, as signified by my winky little emoticon at the end of the statement. Those phrases (or similar ones) get tossed around in here often, with great seriousness attached to them… I simply chose to poke fun at all of us.
21
I never said that Unions “have equal influence over politics”. I said they have far TOO MUCH influence. Which they do.
“Corporations” give money to Democrats and Republicans equally, by the way.
President Obama has received more “Wall St.” money than any other.
Yet…if you asked them, most OWS folks WILL vote for him. Not very principled. That…combined with OWS’ penchant for rallying around every other Hard-Left cause makes a person question their true agenda.
Are they REALLY against “corporate influence”, or was this just another attempt by the DNC and other Leftist organizations to create a faux “populist” movement that would match the T.E.A. Party?
The facts…point to the latter.
Unfortunately, there are some good folks involved with Occupy Roanoke that aren’t fully aware of this.
@19: I would agree. Occupy, as a national movement, took far too long to focus on a small number of issues and picked up too many smaller movements that blurred the message. While some smaller communities decided to focus on some core topics, the movement, as a whole, did not (and is still waffling, as far as I’m concerned).
There are varying issues where the members of Occupy Roanoke are concerned, but all of us agree that our primary concerns should be the removal of corporate influence in politics, better regulation of the banking/investment industry that played a heavy hand in our recent economic issues, and the redaction of personhood for corporations.
I believe most people could find some support for those particular issues.
Pretty sad that they can’t get enough votes for an iPhone, Steve Jobs is probably rolling in his grave as we speak. I guess since Occupy Roanoke has its head in the clouds they need to store all there “important information” in the “Cloud” Why don’t these idiots get hobbies? Also since they are giving out free food to the homeless on the weekends will the neighborhood groups in SE Roanoke go after them like they did the Rescue Mission? They are technically contributing to the problem because they cause groups of homeless people to congregate close to pristine SE Roanoke.
@26: I would agree that Occupy is on the course for becoming a tool for liberal-oriented parties if it doesn’t start sticking to its original format of supporting no political party, even independent ones. As individuals, sure, we can choose who we support, but Occupy needs to distance itself from political affiliations before it becomes, as you said, a counter-movement to the Tea Party.
The difficulty lies in individuals doing their best to hang their personal dogmas at the proverbial door and focusing on those topics upon which we all agree. Therein lies the reason why some Occupy communities see a reduction in numbers due to adherence to the principle of that focus, while others wind up becoming far too imbalanced to bridge the gap between their political counterparts.
President Obama GOT far more Wall Street money than McCain/Palin. That is NOT proving to be the case this time around. One of their own is running and they KNOW he will be good to them. The coffers and the Super Pacs are FULL of rich people’s money because as hard as time are, they can still afford politicians.
You abuse OWS because the message is not one of total blind allegiance to money and business. When you are living in that Plutocracy you helped to create, you remember that and explain it to your children.
OWS is well aware that there are good companies and good leaders on both sides of the issue. The TP/GOP has NEVER conceded any such. OWS is fueled with hope for a better tomorrow for us all, the TP/GOP “rebellion” just wants to be rid of liberals, even at their own expense. Brilliant strategy. And what happens, when they come for you?
Matt F, it is readily apparent that you do not know who you are dealing with or talking too.
Lake Claytor, we’ve obviously missed each other on weekends-I greet everyone that passes by me on the sidewalk. And don’t you see the problem w/ the two party system? We have 2 realistic options, the lesser of two evils until the lazy majority wake up and pay attention and stop watching too much reality tv or Faux News. I don’t think anyone involved with Occupy Roanoke voting for Obama is being a hypocrite or not sticking to their personal values. We know we didn’t get the “change you can believe in”-part of why this has happened.(and the other groups across the country that have survived) I just don’t think the things you’re pointing out are anything we don’t already know.
In closing, we’re not going anywhere. We’ll continue doing what we’ve been doing along with other projects that are in the works.
Uptheriver…wish I’d had the same experience here that you did!
“stop watching too much reality tv or Faux News”
Ever watch Chris Matthews, Rev Al, Fast Eddie Schultz, Morning Joe? How about Soledad Obrien? “Faux News” isn’t the only game. Not even close.
#29 – You want to keep politics out of OWS and prevent it from being a tool for Liberals, Matt?
Sorry, pal, you’re too late. The hatred is on it’s way to being well seated.
Sandi’s post #30 is a perfect example.
#33 – You forgot to mention that Maddow dude!
And yes, I know it’s a woman.
Who’s up for Occupy Bangor Maine?
While we are there “occuping” we can eat lots of lobster.
#26 LC posted – “President Obama has received more “Wall St.” money than any other. ”
Please don’t continue your lie to make your invalid point. Try using FACTS.
“Wall Street dollars now favor Republican candidates over the president by more than a 5 to 1 margin, with the majority going to Mitt Romney, whose ties to the financial sector date back to his time at private equity powerhouse Bain Capital.
The financial sector, including insurance and real estate industries, has spent at least $33 million to support Republican candidates so far in the 2012 election cycle.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/01/mitt-romney-wall-street-campaign-contributions_n_1247866.html
#26 LC posted, “that aren’t fully aware of this.”
The irony of LC, someone so totally clueless and unaware, preaching to others about being “aware” – mind boggling.
UTR, I’m with you on #33…I don’t watch any of them, I have no real use for any of the cable news channels, commentators, or shows.
#33 UTR, I can say that I’ve never watched any of them, except for occasionally accidentally catching clips of Rev. Al speaking somewhere.
If Occupy believes it can eschew party politics and get things done, they are going to remain a short lived fringe group. Simply being disgruntled Dems or semi-Libertarian is not going to be enough.
The reason the TPRs did not resonate (besides the tea bags on their tricorn hats), is that they were only the disgruntled right wing, repackaged. This is their pattern (remember the Moral Majority? Contract on America?). They repurpose themselves every few years and pretend they are a “new” alternative. Then they fall in line and campaign and support the GOP.
Personally, while I applaud the message, OWS has died of self inflicted wounds (violence before the revolution, crowds are all that matter) and a little help from the right wing condemnation machine (which is a very effective machine backed by more money than our national deficit).
You all are turning into the least effective thing you can be in this nation, a group no one wants to know. You will NEVER convince a Lake Claytor or a Terps, or a Suzie to “join” you because ‘majority rule’ stomping on the competition is their goal in life.
But by pretending your cause is so different from liberals and the Democratic Party, in your attempts to reach them, you are going to lose the very people who could change this nation. You will merely join the “coffee party” and the “color of change” and the others in virtual obscurity. “There is safety in numbers” is an old saying for a reason.
Matt,
That populist message, “removal of corp. influence in politics”, could have been supported by a very large number.
But, this is not what people SEE when they “see” Occupy. This is why the numbers are so low. It isn’t about “being nice” either. It isn’t personal. It’s ideological, and IMAGE does matter.
Most folks DON’T identify with an avowed Communist waving a flag, wearing a beret. Just telling it like it is. Most people don’t want to have anything to do with it. That’s why you have so many “arm-chair” members. They don’t want to be associated.
As an example…go to the Facebook page for Occupy Roanoke. It’s ALL OVER THE PLACE. Leftist causes everywhere. Gay rights, No borders, Trayvon Martin, Animal rights…etc. It’s crazy. There is very little continuity or focus on the primary statements that you have made here.
Unless a person is part of the 10% Hard Left in this country, they aren’t going feel like it is for them.
Just my opinion.
Matt, the group would be better off if it had regional LEADERSHIP. “Anarchy” doesn’t work. You’d be a good one.
Good News for them. iPhone 4 8GB model is only $49.99 at best buy.
Katrina,
“until the LAZY majority wake up and pay attention and stop watching too much reality tv or Faux News.’
That kinda talk isn’t going to win anyone over. Just sayin’.
Lake Claytor@11:18
“Corporations give money to Democrats and republicans equally, by the wat.”
If you actually believe that, please give me a call. I have some great swampland in Florida that I’d like to tell you about. It’s a great investment.
Do corporations give some money to Democrats? Undeniably they do. Do corporations give money “equally” to Democrats and Republicans? Not a chance. Corporations backed Obama in 2008 because the economy was going to hell in a handbasket and they needed somebody to rescue it. Now its been rescued and heading in the right direction so they want to return to the same old greedy actions that sent it there in the first place.
It is a myth that Occupiers are all Democrats who are voting for Obama and sit around watching MSNBC.
MANY of us see BOTH parties as equally at fault and I, personally find MSNBC to be almost, (but not quite) as bad as Fox. Both give the news with a definite slant instead of being an impartial venue to get unbiased news. I prefer to get my news from a variety of sources, preferably from a variety of internet sites in addition to a minimum of TV news stations. Just report the “news” and let me form my own opinions instead of spoon feeding me someone else’s ideology as the cable news shows do.
We do not “hate” corporations or rich people. We just don’t want them having sole control of our government.
As for our “IPhone” purchase, it is doubtful that we actually purchase anything that expensive. We simply need something to enable us to have live streaming at our events.
Uptheriver, I rarely watch tv. I watch Democracy now w/ roku, read articles online and lots of books, and endure the PBS kids shows my son likes.
Okay, I see everybody kind of arguing in here about OWS vs Conservatives..
I’d like to direct everybody’s attention to the following videos, I’ll start with one, and let you all watch any others you might be interested in from the side bar.
I chose these because:
(1)The Pro-Capitalism, Pro-Isreal speaker is a former Russian, who definitely knows what he is talking about when it comes to what life in a “socialist” Country is like.
(2) There is mutual respect shown from BOTH sides, none of them esculates into an argument. (that I saw anyway, I haven’t watched them all). There is definitely a mutual exchange of ideas…where both parties listen to the other’s point of view and respond with theirs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6Xx24DfTpY
The one I linked to deals mostly with Isreal, the UN, etc..and touches a little bit on capitalism….some of his other videos deal MORE with capitalsim, Healthcare etc. You can explore.
This guy has a “knack” for asking the right questions, making the right points etc, without getting personal or attacking, (neither do the OWS members). Then end result is that the OWS members have to REALLY think about what they are saying when they protest “Capitalism” etc. Many of the OWS crowd found that if they think about what they are protesting with a little common sense….they don’t really have a reason to protest.
Personally, I watch these videos and think to myself..ya know, the Tea Party and the OWS crowd are really ASKING for many of the same changes…we just have VASTLY different ideas on how to accomplish that change.
Think about how many NEW millionaires OWS will have to resent tomorrow with the Facebook IPO. Goody!
Here is hoping that maybe folks who may be so very different, be civil to each other and see that we might have more in common then they think.
Of course having a little live music does not hurt either.
45
Dave,
I am going to ignore your delusional assertion
“Now its been rescued and heading in the right direction”
because it is so absurd it doesn’t really require a response. People know with their wallets that you are wrong. Why do you think the polls are what they are? Obama has spent us into oblivion with nothing to show for it.
As for your opinion that Democrats don’t get as much corporate cash…PROVE they don’t. Show me the numbers. Corporations buy their influence equally.
However, $600 Million has been given by UNIONS over the past 25 years.
I wonder what percent of that Union money has gone to the GOP?
2%?
Oh how cute, he just wanted to show us what a bigot sounds like…”#33 – You forgot to mention that Maddow dude!” And yes, I know it’s a woman.”
Newsflash Michael, we were well aware.
Look at Lake Claytor, acting like he could be “won” over? Wow.
“The study, analyzing donations during the 2002 campaign cycle, found that those little guys giving less than $200 to federal candidates, parties or leadership political action committees contributed 64 percent of their money to Republicans. By contrast, those fat cats giving $1 million or more contributed a lopsided 92 percent to Democrats. The only group favoring Democrats, in fact, were contributors giving more than $100,000.”
From an old WaPo piece in 2003. see here.
http://newsmine.org/content.php?ol=cabal-elite/w-administration/legislative-rule/campaign-finance-hurts-democrats.txt
Now…Dave, this was nearly 10 years ago. But, I think we could both agree that things haven’t changed THAT much.
Corporations will give money to whomever they can to gain influence. They do not discriminate.
Exactly, Lake.
Republicans…Democrats…makes no difference. When corporations and unions can give unlimited donations, those who accept that money will be influenced to vote for and make laws that benefit those donors.
Occupy is trying to get the money out of politics.
Both parties have been bought.
So you see, we DO agree more than you thought.
#54 LC posted, “during the 2002 campaign cycle, ”
So because your lie about President Obama getting more money than Romney from Wall Street @26 was correcyed with actual FACTS and a link @ 37 you then have to go allllll the way baaaack to 2002 to make a point? Ten years!
Really give it up…you are so desperate and pitiful.
Was Obama running for president 10 years ago?
49.”Think about how many NEW millionaires OWS will have to resent tomorrow with the Facebook IPO.”
OWS doesn’t resent millionaires, since that’s a very common upper middle class net worth these days. Nor do they even resent billionaires as such, only the unjustifiable preferential teatment some of them demand for themselves and their corporate shields.
As for Facebook’s IPO, General Motors seems to think the lack of effectiveness in creating sales makes the further monetization of Facebook an open question. Maybe Walker forgets about the likes of Pets.com, but I’m still enjoying thinking about how that canny fox Rupert Murdoch paid 600 million dollars for Myspace, then sold it six years later for 35 million. Facebook stock might be just the thing for Walker to invest in, while waiting for his golden ticket to be validated by Mr. Wonka.
IMO, it’s a good time for facebook to go public…. if you’re the SELLER, that is.
57.”Was Obama running for president 10 years ago?”
Honestly, I think so. He’s a great campaigner and strategist; can’t take that from him.
#52 – Again, one of my posts goes over your head, Sandi. You really should work on that.
It was a joke. For a long time people though Maddow WAS a guy.
Dan,
Maybe you missed my first question, so I’ll ask it again…what veterans group is going to be attending?
Good grief: “treatment”…lately my keyboard has been having problems, especially the “R” key and “O” key. It’s must be sort of a feud between Arkies and Okies.
#52 – Ya know, Sandi, you insinuated in another thread that you were called a bigot (which you weren’t), yet here you are flat-out calling me one.
Wow…I can’t imagine what it must be like inside your head.
#44-LC, lazy may not win them over, but at least the people here having a dialogue are paying attention to SOMETHING which is something I respect. Elections are bought, corporations are people, teachers are underpaid, millions without healthcare, we have a large homeless population right here in our city. If you want to see change, you have to step up and help or quit complaining. Every small thing that happens daily adds up to change. It starts here, at home. We can’t make any serious changes nationally until we work together here at home. It is a goal that could be accomplished if, again, those who choose to complain rather than be active got out and stopped watching that box in their living room.
Now, for #42-those pages are open for everyone to post things. We don’t exclude. We have a very diverse group and some of us are more involved other causes than others. That’s why you see so many causes in one place. If anything, I think it actually makes it a little easier to people seeking information on other causes-they can come to our fb pages and find links to what they’re interested in. Dialogue starts on those topics. I agree, we do need to spend more time on the real issues at stake and that kicked off the movement, but, that’s one of many things we’re working towards…hence the statewide meeting this weekend in Roanoke-to collaborate with other groups, see what’s working, what’s not, and where do we go next.
Michael,
I didn’t get the name of the veterans group. So the answer to your question is, I don’t know.
Speaking of something going over someone’s head…Michael I said nothing about being called a bigot. You misunderstood the point I was making. You do that a lot.
No sir, “For a long time people though Maddow WAS a guy“, no they did not. Sick people like you said things like that thinking your childish attempts at humor were funny. It wasn’t, it isn’t and seriously I doubt it ever will be.
#66 – So I’m willing to bet it’s not the VFW, American Legion, or AMVETS. In other words, NOT a recognized veteran’s group, but instead a group of veterans who support OWS.
Big difference.
Maybe someone from here Michael.
http://occupymarines.org/
And this article explains why they might:
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/11/11/352299/veterans-occupy-wall-street/
1.) Veterans Deserve Economic Justice
2.) Veterans Embrace Occupy Wall Street Out Of Love For Country
3.) The Banks Are Preying On Veterans
4.) K Street Domination Of Government Means Defense Money Goes To War Profiteering Corporations Over Veterans
5.) During The Economic Downturn, Veterans Programs Are Being Cut And Privatized As Well
YOUR view as a veteran is not the only one in the world.
“It was a joke. For a long time people though Maddow WAS a guy.”
You mean Maddow isn’t a guy?! LOL.
56, 57
Corporations give money to BOTH parties. They did it in 2002 and they’ve done it ever since. In fact, the Democrat party was the party of “FAT CAT” donors in 2002.
“By contrast, those fat cats giving $1 million or more contributed a lopsided 92 percent to Democrats. The only group favoring Democrats, in fact, were contributors giving more than $100,000.”
My point was made.
#71 Your point was a false equivalency…and not even relevant. I’m sorry, do you wish to try again?
Wow, you two really think you’re funny huh? Won any beauty contests lately?
Yes we want to buy an iPhone from the Sprint kiosk at Best Buy so we can fight corporate greed.
#70 – “You mean Maddow isn’t a guy?! LOL.”
Careful, John. You’re gonna wind up with a certain lunatic spewing venomous hate at you.
Oh, wait…she does that to EVERYONE who doesn’t agree with her.
Nevermind.
72
Money is EVENLY spread out among the poltical parties…even though, in 2002 the Democrats received 92% of the “GFAT CAT” money.
Who knows, the Dems might still get far more “fat cat” money. Obama did in 2008, that’s for sure.
Michael,
You’ll have to clarify this “big difference” between veteran groups. I’m curious as to what your definition of the right kind of veteran might be.
LC,
I would readily agree with you that Occupy needs some form of leadership and, to be honest, my prediction from the first month or two of the movement was that it would need to evolve towards that or wind up running in circles without any real direction.
It’s gone every which way since then, I’ll admit it. OWS created the system of “no leadership” that all Occupy groups have attempted to follow; however, the actuality is a bit more muddled. We have groups that run entirely on the consensus model, some with a core membership that winds up making most of the decisions, and OWS (over the last couple of months) trying to act as some sort of over-zealous parent organization.
There is a pale pallor of leadership, though few want to acknowledge it or take up the mantle… and it’s fracturing the national movement. I have little difficulty in taking a step outside of the box and being critical of the Occupy movement. Occupy, as a whole, needs to regain its direction and a more focused sense of purpose, not continue to allow any and every message from its following to gum up the works.
You mentioned that the Facebook page, at a simple glance, appears nothing more than a font of leftist dogma. You’re right. There was an effort to stem the tidal wave of shared links; however, social networks are devilishly designed to make such sharing easy, no matter how you try to control it. The core members, those who physically show up on a regular basis, have pushed to define a much shorter, simpler message focusing on the issues of corporate money in politics and banking reform. We have a direct message, but, as you’ve pointed out, that doesn’t come across on the Facebook page and, I agree, it’s impossible to tell that we have a direct agenda.
Let’s face it, every system is flawed. Occupy has no special privilege in that regard; however, until some form of leadership is developed, I believe it will be weaker than it could be. As you’ve said, the main direct messages could bring in many, many more people across the board, but the entirety of the movement needs to get focused or we’ll never gain the strength of those potential new members.
(And, while I appreciate your suggestion, I’m likely not one people who should be in charge. Leading a squad or a platoon is one thing… having the patience and understanding to tackle a movement is another. There are others more suitably qualified, should the evolution towards leadership begin.)
As for Sandi’s statements about how Occupy needs to go for the political support route… how is support from members of a broken system going to help? The more Occupy associates with the Democratic Party, the more it just becomes another expendable voter base to be abused. There are problems with our political system and getting backed by a major party, well, hell, it’s like trying to fight fire with pyromaniacs. It makes little sense to posse up with the same people who helped break the system.
I’d rather go apolitical with a concise, clear message… one with which almost everyone can agree. If it means taking ten or twenty years to do it, so be it. “Safety in numbers” is just an excuse to not step outside of one’s comfort zone… personally, I’d rather risk a few failures and learn from the mistakes than play it safe with the aforementioned pyros.
Michael:
“Oh, wait…she does that to EVERYONE who doesn’t agree with her.”
Arguing and angry PC rants are her sunshine.
Had to weigh in here. Can/will only speak for myself. One of the things I like about Occupy Roanoke and the rest (OWS etc) is that big or small we keep the issues in front of the public. the “1% vs the 99%” is used by the news and others to point to the ever growing economic divide of the haves’ and have nots’. Cars passing the Occupy corner cheer, honk and give thumbs up as they pass, this tells me that people notice and are becoming aware of Occupy issues. The “get a job” hollered out a passing car is the exception to the support and small in numbers.
Repeal “Citizens United” is a national movement to amend/over turn CU law. The people in the streets help raise the issues concerning this law. Occupy has brought people out of the wood work to research. look and report/post the ills of our money/politics problem. Example: “ALEC” was discussed in Occupy groups long before the Trayvon Martin case. Occupy has also helped to spread the word about this group – including here in Roanoke.
Again I only speak for myself: Some of the folks who no longer come around wanted more direct action – like blocking access to banks, creating stinks to bring in the press and the police. We chose not to take this route. Our efforts are also on behalf of the police, firefighters, teachers and other workers everywhere whether they are Union or not.
Wall Street is a symbol of the “money power people” taking away the voice of the 99% in America. OWS made it an issue – it is on the news, other related stories are spun off to demonstrate the economic divide. The Kock brothers and other power players/super pacs and their wish to control legislation and Americans have been pointed out – be it the GOP or the Dems. Nothing is ever fixed over night – it has to start somewhere. So the question is, if OWS never happened, how much of the 1% vs the ((% would be in the news?
78
Matt, I tell you what…if I felt that OWS as a whole viewed our current situation as you do, I’d support it in some way. (other than critique)
“… how is support from members of a broken system going to help? The more Occupy associates with the Democratic Party, the more it just becomes another expendable voter base to be abused. There are problems with our political system and getting backed by a major party, well, hell, it’s like trying to fight fire with pyromaniacs. It makes little sense to posse up with the same people who helped break the system.”
I hold this SAME sentiment with T.E.A. Party members(or others) who stand blindly behind whatever pap an establishment GOP politician goes along with for purely political gain.
the ever growing economic divide of the haves’ and have nots
Robin B.
I’ve asked this question on the blog and have yet to get an answer. How does it hurt if some people make much more than others since income is not a zero-sum game? For example, do you think a mega-billionaire like Warren Buffett hurts Omaha or helps it? Do you think Bill Gates and Microsoft help or hurt Seattle? Do you think the Via family helps or hurts Roanoke? (Didn’t they give a huge donation to Virginia Tech?)
Should I hold my breath for an answer?
80
I am glad you folks decided not to interfere with the lives of folks, or break the law. Good for you.
You mentioned the “Kock brothers”…but you neglected to mention George Soros and other FAT CAT millionaires that support the Left. Why is their 1% money okay?
As i’ve shown above…the Democrats have their own Koch Brothers, actually, they might have far more that the GOP. Look at Hollywood. Hollywood isn’t “the voice of the 99%”. In 2002, 92% of BIG donors went to the DNC.
As I said above, OWS appears to be yet another LEFTIST organization bent on propping up the Democrats. It makes everyday folks question the supposed populist message.
You can’t SAY you represent the “99%” and hold a flag (or flags) that represent only 10%. We won’t believe you.
Matt F, you are free to believe whatever you want, but the progressive message of OWS does not mesh with the Plutocracy that the TP/GOP offers so catering to that crowd will get you nothing more than the lip service you are getting here.
You may not like it, but the power is in the vote. That is why they kill themselves and eat their young to attain it. That is why so much money goes into politics and driving public opinion it would solve our national debt.
I do not like one single thing that the T.E.A. arm of the GOP stands for, but I give them credit for realizing what is important. They have all but taken over the GOP and most assuredly changed the face and emphasis of the GOP. If the OWS folks did that to the Democrats it would be the best thing to happen to the party since most of the white supremacists left it during the Civil Rights Movement.
You do what you want. But the truth is the truth. By trying to appeal to the Lake Claytors, you only lose ground IMO, but it is certainly your choice.
Beating up bullies with their own weapon is my sunshine. And I like it.
Warren – Nobody but the big dogs are going to get in on the IPO. People like you and me will have to wait. Never said I would invest in it ether way. Just the way it is. I was speaking of all the employees at Facebook that have stock options. I thought most people would realize that, but then again look where we are.
“Despite frosty relations with the titans of Wall Street, President Obama has still managed to raise FAR MORE money this year from the FINANCIAL and BANKING sector than Mitt Romney or any other Republican presidential candidate, according to new fundraising data.
Obama’s key advantage over the GOP field is the ability to collect bigger checks because he raises money for both his own campaign committee and for the Democratic National Committee, which will aid in his reelection effort.
As a result, Obama has brought in more money from employees of banks, hedge funds and other financial service companies than all of the GOP candidates COMBINED, according to a Washington Post analysis of contribution data.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-has-more-cash-from-financial-sector-than-gop-hopefuls-combined-data-show/2011/10/18/gIQAX4rAyL_print.html
More evidence of parity when it comes to Wall Street donors.
C’mon, Dan…Obama started running at birth when he ensured that fake birth announcements were put into newspapers in Honolulu. Don’t be naive.
I just love all those who throw around the word “HATE”. Criticize any corp. and you “hate” all corporations, criticize a christian preacher and you “hate” all christians, criticize a government policy and you “hate” America. None of these can be allowed to exist unchecked. Our entire system is based on checks and balances. This is what brings fairness to the game. As veteran and business professional, I applaud the Occupy movement for their selfless struggle keep the greediest among us from destroying a nation millions have worked so hard for so long to build.
I know of two business owners who are members of Occupy Roanoke. One owns a downtown bike shop. T he other is a real estate broker.
I have never expected Lake Claytor or Suzie to get it but the truth remains that the reason the Koch brothers et al and their money ‘matters’ more than Soros’, or Hollywood’s is that the Koch brothers use that money to GAIN in their business interests. Hollywood, nor Soros stands to gain from any policy backed by the Democrats. Granted they all give money to what they support, but it is the expecting something in return aspect that taints the money and the donor. The policies of the Dems, like higher taxes on the rich, regulations, Volcker Rule, stronger FCC and SEC, reforming Wall Street — are all policies that would hurt Soros and Hollywood business, if the hype from Lake Claytor and Suzie is to be believed.
Well said Billie Sutton, and welcome! We are so used to that riff here that we pay it no mind, but you are right, it is old and wrong.
Sandi,
The seeming altruism is why RWers are suspicious of Soros. After all, we’re talking about a bunch of Ayn Rand freaks who see naked self-interest as the highest virtue. Their inability to see what’s in it for Soros when he donates money to left-leaning causes engenders clouds of suspicion.
What they don’t realize is that he was born in the Soviet bloc. The common themes in all the causes he supports are freedom and democracy. And he understands that corpro-fascism is just as dangerous to those as totalitarian socialism is.
#87 LC – can’t find anything more recent to “bolster” your misinformation than October 19, 2011? Why do you continue to post this inaccurate and RW propaganda?
Here’s the link of actual FACT that I posted yesterday about the same LIE…please read it, digest it, and try to contain yourself from posting your “inaccuracies”.
“Mitt Romney Beating President Obama Raising Wall Street Cash ”
“Wall Street dollars now favor Republican candidates over the president by more than a 5 to 1 margin, with the majority going to Mitt Romney,”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/01/mitt-romney-wall-street-campaign-contributions_n_1247866.html
Oh really Lake Claytor #87? I think you are wrong, yet again.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/us/romney-perry-and-cain-open-wide-financial-lead-over-field.html?pagewanted=all
“Mitt Romney has raised far more money than Mr. Obama this year from the firms that have been among Wall Street’s top sources of donations for the two candidates.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/01/mitt-romney-wall-street-campaign-contributions_n_1247866.html
“The financial sector, including insurance and real estate industries, has spent at least $33 million to support Republican candidates so far in the 2012 election cycle. That includes campaign donations by individuals and by a new creature on the political influence scene, the Super PAC, which can collect and spend unlimited amounts of cash to try to sway voters. President Obama has raised about $6 million, according to campaign finance data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics and The Huffington Post.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/01/us-usa-campaign-fundraising-idUSTRE7805KL20110901
“Wall Street money is heavily favoring Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney in the race to unseat President Barack Obama”
Yes Dan, he does and he has stated that many times over and yet they keep right on as if it is all the same. He is principled on this issue more so than many.
@82. Please do….
And of course the “Wall Street” TV ad about Obama is chock full of lies, including listing people who worked for Bush as Obama administrators and claiming that folks who do work for Obama worked for Wall Street firms who never employed them. In addition, the figure they give as the “Wall Street” total donation to Obama in fact includes cash from insurance and real estate companies. Actually, less than one-third of the amount claimed came from Wall Street.
Sort of like the claims we see from LC, PP, suzie, terps, pammala and so on.
http://factcheck.org/2012/05/peddling-innuendo-exaggerations-on-obamas-wall-st/
#82 most ill-informed posed the question “How does it hurt if some people make much more than others SINCE INCOME IS NOT A ZERO-SUM GAME?” [my caps for emphasis]
This has been explained before, but without much success because of the questioner’s comprehension skills, I will try again to answer.
Firstly, the wording of this question shows an incomprehensible ignorance about finance. For clarity’s sake, a “zero sum game” definition refers to a situation in which one participant’s GAINS result only from another participant’s equivalent LOSSES.
Secondly, by the framing of the question, most ill-informed believes income IS NOT one person’s gain and another person’s loss.
This would be a big surprise to corporations like Walmart – pay low wages, little to no health benefits [loss to workers], and reap large profits, [corporation gains]. Please remember, “corporations are people too, my friend”.
So, without much deep thought, most ill-informed begins with a false premise.
In fact, to further disprove most ill-informed’s illogical premise, here’s are 2 examples of [not] “zero sum game”:
[…] “one of the business ventures of Bain Capital while Romney was in charge: Dade Behring, which, saddled with debt, wound up shuttering two medical technologies facilities in Miami. Some 850 jobs were lost, while Bain walked away with $242-million – an 800 percent return on its investment”.
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/content/under-romney-bain-received-millions-tax-breaks-dade-behring-it-laid-hundreds
Or, “The CEOs who laid off the most employees during the recession are also the CEOs who took home the biggest pay checks…”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/01/ceo-pay-layoffs_n_701908.html#s133351&title=10_Ivan_Seidenberg
So you see, (1) Romney’s income GAIN was 850 workers’ LOSS of income; and,
(2) The more workers laid off [LOSS of income], the higher the “pay checks” of the CEO’s [income GAIN ].
Do you see the correlation yet?
Now can you put your incomprehensible “theory” away?
93
Dan, its always transparent when your argument is toast. You start throwing out the name-calling and insults. It’s pretty funny.
“a bunch of Ayn Rand freaks”…hilarious.
94
Huffpo?
My link was from one of YOUR rags, the Wapo. Come on, Hillary.
You don’t seem to comprehend my point, Hillary, even though I have made it abundantly clear. Democrats get Wall St. money also. Sometimes they get MORE than the GOP as in October 2011, for instance. Right now, it might be swinging back to Romney. So what? My point was made a long time ago.
Wall Street likes giving their money to BOTH parties equally.
Ya’ll crack me up.
Occupy Roanoke is hosting the very first Occupy Virginia “statewide general assembly” in Highland Park. Representatives of Occupy groups from Portsmouth, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Staunton, Harrisonburg, Northern Virginia, Richmond and Radford are expected…and about 20 to 30 people from Occupy groups elsewhere in Virginia..
fewer than 100
That’s really impressive. One carload from each place. LOL.
How many fit in a Geo, anyway?
LC posted: 1. – “My link was from one of YOUR rags, the Wapo. Come on, Hillary.”
You presume too much – never read the Washington Post.
False assumption.
2. – “Wall Street likes giving their money to BOTH parties equally.”
This is true, but your original posting did not suggest that, as you only linked to money to Democrats. Had you posted that statement with links to Wall Street $$$ going to both parties, there would be no issue. You shouldn’t “slant” your information to make a half-assed point…
No one has said Democrats do not. have not, and will not, get Wall Street money. If there is one thing the wealthy and powerful know, it is to butter all the bread. You continue to argue a point that is no longer true, that is the difference. Suzie jr, just change the parameters and declare victory, it is not as if we have not seen that before.
First let’s deal with LC’s charges of delusion over the fact that the economy has turned a corner.In Jan.009, when Obama was sworn in, the country had just lost 3.6 million net jobs in just over a year from the Bush recession. As a result of the Bush recession that job loss accelerated for the next 7 months and for the total year 2009, again as a result of the effects of the Bush recxession, another 4.2 million net jobs were lost. Total US employment when Obama too office was 141,748,000.By the end of December 2009 that was don to 137,500,000. Beginning in Jan. 2010 during the next 28 months, total US employment has risen again to 141,865,000 as of April 2012. We now have a net gain of 117,000 jobs for Obama’s first term and we are seeing positive job growth each momth. Wewre it not for the loss of over 500,000 public sector jobs due to Republican’s foolish insistence on slashing teachers, firemen, public health employees, and others in the short term. that figurewould be higher. And the demand created by the spending power generated by thos 500000 workers would likely have created at least another 500000 jobs in the private sector. All of these figures can be verified in reports generated by the US Bureau of labor statistics if you care to look.
So yes, the economy is trecovering. QWe would like for it to recover fastewr. And when Republicans stop obstructing and saying no and agree to some real steps to invest in infrastrucure and recover the public sector jobs lost, private employment gains will also accelerate. And tax cuts for the top 55 WILL HAVE nothing TO DO WITH IT.
Now let’s deal with LC’s polemicals about the campaign cash. I won’t bother to repeat the links already posted by Hillary and gdad which poke holes all over those arguments. But your biggest number (unsubstantiated I might add) is that labor unions have spent 600 million dollars OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS in political donations. So lets break that down. That’s a whopping 24 MILLION PER YEAR!. Big sorporations including oil and the fossil fuels industry, chemicals (Koch Brothers and others, Wall Street, other financial industries, big insurancer companies, pharmacewuticals, health care conglomerates, and agribusiness and the national chamber of commerce, will be spending over 600 billion in the campaign THIS YEAR through direct donations to candidates, to PACS, to Super Pacs, and to sleazy shadowy 501 (c) 4′s. What percentage of that do you think will be spent in favor of Democrats? They have already given more money to Scott Walker in Wisconsin than Wall Street and the finance industry have given to Obama’s presiderntial campaign. Karl Rove and the Koch Bros. have already spent over 1.5 million targeting Tim Kaine in Va. So who do you think you are kidding when you allege that corporate and Wall Street money goes equally to Democrats and republicans. You must think we all just fell off the truck.
Dave is correct. And Boehner’s recent backtracking on the debt limit DEAL reached last summer is only further evidence of how desperately the GOP desires to derail the economy for their political advantage.
Boehner has proven that he’s a liar.
And finally, let’s deal with suzielies. First, she has variously stated in different post over the past several months that during Obama’s first teerm, he has lost 3.8, million, then 3.0illion, then between 2 qnd 3 million, qnd now its 2 million net jobs. Please note the nubers in the first posat to LCwhich call your attention to the fact that since the Obama administration finally managed to stop the horrendous job losses suffered due to the BUSH recession, jobs added have now brought employment back to a level that is 117000 grteater than it was the day hetook office. There is no net loss. That is a figment of your perverted imagination.
Second, you consistently post that the “real military,” despises the President. Yet the Reuters /Ipasos poll of military veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan finds that they favor Obama by a 44 to 37 margin over Romney.
(poll taken 5/4 and 5/5 2012. So you lose again. That landslide that you have conjured up in that little brain of yours will be burying you in November.
Boner is just trying to keep his job. Eric Cantor and the teabagging freshmen are just waiting for him to compromise.
Please excuse my poor keyboard skills in the previous three posts. They were never very good, and age and arthritic fingers haven’t improved them any. You still get the point, I think.
We now have a net gain of 117,000 jobs for Obama’s first term
This is a lie. Notice no link.
Here’s mine: http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000
Dan should be ashamed of himself for agreeing to Dave’s nonsense without checking it out. That’s what a journalist would do.
Suzie:
“How many [occupiers] fit in a Geo, anyway?”
Riding, sleeping, or using the bucket in the hatchback?
And Boehner’s recent backtracking on the debt limit DEAL reached last summer is only further evidence of how desperately the GOP desires to derail the economy for their political advantage.
Boehner is a weakling. We can all agree on that. Who else would fold holding two aces?
What disappoints me most about Boehner is this decision to hang tough last year should have been easy. It would have been a win for the nation and a win politically. Sure, the MSM would have crucified him, but the American people were behind him.
You don’t get many chances to change Congress’ philosophical way of handling the economy. When you get that chance, you have to take it. Boehner didn’t. He wanted to be liked by the leftwing elitists and MSM.
What in the hell goes wrong with good people when they get in that town?
99 So Hillary admits she actually believe wealth and income are zero-sum games. Makes it very hard to carry on a rational discussion with someone who buys that crap.
Question, Hillary. If Bill Gates moved himself and his riches to Roanoke, would that mean other money would somehow sucked away from folks already here? That’s what a zero-sum game would mean.
Dan has already said if Gates moved here, he would use his influence to pay no taxes causing the poor and middle class to have to pick up his share of the burden.
I just don’t know where you kooks get your ideas.
#114 There you go again fabricating your “reality” You said income is NOT a zero sum game in your post @82:
“How does it hurt if some people make much more than others since income is not a zero-sum game? ”
Now you wish us all to pretend you didn’t use the word “not” – YOUR false premise [...is not a zero-sum game] was factually refuted in my post @99 – written in black and white, and in the simplest terms you might understand, [apparently not] – you now can’t pretend you didn’t use the work “NOT” when you referred to a zero sum game.
Declaring my point of view opposite of what it indeed is, makes you again a liar. Read the post, it does not bolster your idiotic premise. It appears you are so truth-challenged, that you must not be able to help yourself. Please go get professional help for your deluded “reality”.
Dan @106..”Boehner has proven that he’s a liar.”
We’ll add him to the list of most every politician on capital hill and every single person to ever occupy the White House. Dan has an accute awareness of the obvious.
#99…You are wrong, if I’m reading you correctly. Which means you are wrong at #115, too. Income is NOT a zero sum game. When I pay an employee 1000 bucks, or I pay a gutter contractor 1000 bucks….who in the world LOST 1000 bucks?
Now before you come back with an attitude, let’s see if you and I can keep this a non-partesan, civil debate.
Phil Chitwood.
Most ill-informed posed the question, ““How does it hurt if some people make much more than others …
I answered that specific question in #99 – that Romney/Bain for example, laid off 850 workers [zero income] and Romney/Bain profited by making $242 million [gain].
I personally think that might “hurt” 850 now unemployed workers. Don’t you? Now, was that nice enough for you?
“Now, was that nice enough for you?” You’re almost there.
My oh my. DC is still giving this pitiful group press? 4 – 16 (I’m being kind) doesn’t qualify as a protest. Kind of funny, the Roanoke Times circulation numbers continue their downward spiral, the Verizabums are losing to better competition as their service has declined over the years. Alvarez, Croft and the others (I don’t take time to remember the few), take a hard look at yourself, and see how silly you are. Maybe you’re just pathetic? Wear some sun block, and have a good day reciting from your Saul Alinsky bible!!
Bob say Buh Bye!!
Given that, by multiple definitions of the word, a “protest” can be provided by a single individual, it stands to reason that your nature of qualification is invalidated by simple application of the English language.
Just thought I’d point that out. It helps to understand the uses of a word before attempting to use it in a discussion. Personal definitions or quantifying factors don’t fare well against the long-term, ecumenically accepted ones.
#99…You are wrong, if I’m reading you correctly. Which means you are wrong at #115, too. Income is NOT a zero sum game. When I pay an employee 1000 bucks, or I pay a gutter contractor 1000 bucks….who in the world LOST 1000 bucks?
Hillary doesn’t really answer questions. Still haven’t gotten one on the Bill Gates questions.
Kooks that think the rich are stealing from the poor are just too crazy to talk to.
Quoting myself, “When I pay an employee 1000 bucks, or I pay a gutter contractor 1000 bucks….who in the world LOST 1000 bucks?”
Answer: No one lost 1000 bucks. Income is NOT a zero sum game.
most ill-informed, it would not matter how many times simple or complex concepts are explained to you. No amount of research and facts will cloud your preconceived dogmatic RW perception of everything. You do not evidently have the perception you think you have. Even ‘dumb as a box of rocks’ elevates your intellect to heights you are incapable of reaching.
Trying to provide facts or links for you to digest and possibly add something to the “conversation” has proved futile. I will no longer waste my time as you are beyond anyone’s reach…
Your blatant dishonesty precludes anything within the realm of normal dialogue. Your motto should be, “Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.”
@ 90 – Not for months now Dan… Though I wish them well, IMHO they have wasted most of their time (from the beginning) in non-productive activities – So my time is better spent working for reform thru other avenues. But as for the insults from a few people about the character of the people who participated, and still do? Their words are like barking and therefore need little rebuttal. There is not a single person I met in Occupy that I didn’t like, even when I disagreed with them. (They sure beat the self-righteous mutts who habitually criticize them.)
Phil, FGS, stop! SUZIE #82 SAID: “…since income is not a zero-sum game”
Comment by Suzie — May 18, 2012 @ 10:08 am
Stop acting like Hillary is the one who said it!
As usual, the conservatives and the troll try to change the conversation. It is not about the wealthy taking from the poor (although many take from the tax and economic structure to enrich what they already have), it is about the size of the gap and the problems it is causing in our society. Oddly enough, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Nick Hanauer, Stephen King and other very wealthy people get it. Sad that those so far down the “food chain” cannot.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-01/raise-taxes-on-the-rich-to-reward-job-creators-commentary-by-nick-hanauer.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/01/25/bill_gates_raise_taxes_on_the_rich.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/30/stephen-king-tax-me-for-f-s-sake.html
Your next door neighbor may love you enough to give you an appendectomy, but most of us are gonna go with the doctor who is trained to do so. The problems in this society cannot be solved on the backs of those with so little they are struggling (even if they are willing) and the wealth at the top cannot be subsidized and spared (even if they are not willing) at this time. You do not have to like it, you just need to understand it and quit lying about it.
Amen Dave Gresham, they do indeed.
Sandi, those aren’t the only members of the 1% who realize the problem.
As Hanauer has noted, the rich depend on a strong middle class to buy products, the profits of which make the rich rich. It’s a feedback loop. When the middle class disappears, so do those profits.
Correct Dan, they are not nearly the only people who see the real problem.
“Liberal media” downplaying the UN/OWS demonstrations in Chicago, color me surprised.
NATO/OWS I meant.
Notice, Sandi, Hillary, and Dan STILL haven’t told us why an income gap is a large thing. To repeat my questions:
1) HOW would the Roanoke Valley be hurt instead of helped if Bill Gates moved here?
2) How does the country suffer if Gates et al have $80 billion instead of $40 billion?
3) How do charities and ancillary businesses not benefit a great deal if wealthy people live in the area
Are you going to make a stab at it or just hurl more insults? Please use your own words. Let’s see if you understand the gobbldygook you spout.
As Hanauer has noted, the rich depend on a strong middle class to buy products, the profits of which make the rich rich. It’s a feedback loop. When the middle class disappears, so do those profits.
Explain what happens to this so-called ‘middle class’ Dan. Are you saying they lose money? Can’t buy stuff anymore? Or is it that they are as well-off as before, but just seem poorer in comparison to the superbillionaires?
I’ll bet a “nickle” he won’t answer because he doesn’t know what he thinks. He’s just parroting what Salon said.
If Bill Gates were to consider moving to the Roanoke Valley, he’d just buy it and not worry about the taxes.
Suzie,
The middle of the middle class’ household income is $35-55,000. As reported in numerous articles last week, household healthcare costs now, on average, exceed $20,000 per year. Very, very few Companies provide defined benefit pension plans to their employees. Used to be that Companies paid for healthcare and retirement costs for their employees – no where close to that today for middle class employees. There has been an explosion in Exec Comp. Go figure.
Suzie, for you to disparage anyone else’s comprehension of anything is laughable. You deliberately “discuss” issues and argue points no one is making. Anyone who knows anything about balance knows that too large of an imbalance both affects the whole and causes problems. An income gap is not the problem, an income gap so large that only one side is gaining is the problem. It has been this way for some time and it is causing strain on the nation. Even a moron should be able to see that problem, many of the truly wealthy do.
“1) HOW would the Roanoke Valley be hurt instead of helped if Bill Gates moved here?” No one has argued that any wealthy person hurts any community.
“2) How does the country suffer if Gates et al have $80 billion instead of $40 billion?” No one has argued that it hurts the nation when they have billions. The problem is them continuing to gain as everyone else loses. That is an imbalance that will eventually hurt them too. That is the point Nick Hanauer and others have been making.
“3) How do charities and ancillary businesses not benefit a great deal if wealthy people live in the area“? Charities may well benefit, again, that is not the argument. The less well the economy does for the most, the less well it will eventually do for those with the most. Duh!
Again, since hurling insults, changing the discussion and lying are your specialties, it is just a joke for you to complain of others returning your favors. Oddly “gobbldygook you spout” is the problem here, not mine.
Only a certified fool would argue that the middle and working class in this nation have not been losing ground for over a decade. It is just statistically not an argument you can sustain.
“The point is that a tax system that lightly taxes capital and heavily taxes labor is necessarily going to benefit the wealthy.
…the tax system in the United States violates the fundamental principles of income taxation. Those are “vertical equity,” which says that those with upper incomes should pay a higher effective tax rate than those with modest incomes — as far back as Adam Smith, ability to pay has always been a core principle of taxation — and “horizontal equity,” which says that those with roughly the same income ought to pay roughly the same taxes.”
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/21/tax-code-not-aligned-with-basic-principles/
And BTW Phil, you know as well as anyone that your analogy using the “When I pay an employee 1000 bucks, or I pay a gutter contractor 1000 bucks….who in the world LOST 1000 bucks?” is not right. When a contractor (or even a jack leg) does a job for you and you pay him 1000 bucks, first of all, you did not really get 1000 worth of work and second of all he does not get the whole 1000 bucks. It is a much more complex system than that and you know it.
Second, if there is a contract for 500K and you deduct the cost of materials, the cost of labor and the cost of overhead and various other costs, that always manages to come out to a zero sum game in that on the ledger sheet the expenses will take every dime of that 500K and it will look like no profit was made to the tax man when nothing is further from the truth in reality. It is how the game is played. That is how a business can “make” millions and not pay taxes.
You can want this to be simplistic and ‘Bill Gates moving to Roanoke will be a good thing and you paying a 1000 bucks for work is a good thing that hurts no one’, but none of this is the issue and it is all certainly within a rigged game when you get to the tax and accountability end of any of it.
We had a very good turnout Saturday at the Gish House, and Suzie, I didn’t see any Geo’s, but we did have a large motor home, several carloads of people, and a lot of them spent the weekend camping up on the parkway
Members from Occupy’s all over Virginia were there, the local AFL CIO union was there for several hours, the United Black Veterans Society stopped in before going to Local Colors, Roanoke Equality stopped in during their break from Local Colors. Productive meetings, making new contacts, a lot of things were accomplished and prioritized.
and Dave Gresham, thank you, and keep working on your efforts I’ve read about