Paying lip service to the Wednesday OPEN thread
Shot by Dan
“When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday, cash me out.”
Frank Sinatra
June 13, 2012 - 10:00 AM
June 13, 2012 - 10:00 AM
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Wednesday, May 22, 2013
THE ROANOKE TIMES
@Dave Hicks, Jack, John W, et al – I’m responding here instead of the annoying long gun thread. Gamut has a show opening next week (everybody come!) so I’m super busy and not keeping up with reading the various threads. However, I actually may swing by the gun-toting park picnic. I don’t live far from there and it would be an opportunity to meet a few of the folks here, stand around in the (hopefully) sunshine, be sort of privately amused by all the holstered guns, and whatnot. So, can you ding a reminder closer to the day, Dave? And maybe some others here would like to meet there, visit a bit and then head somewhere less infested with firearms for a beer?
If these every make it to the market and are not too dear, I want one.
http://tinyurl.com/887jctr
**
Disco ball-inspired mirror gets rid of driver’s blind spot
By Sarah Hoye, CNN
updated 2:47 PM EDT, Fri June 8, 2012 |
[Pic]
Philadelphia (CNN) — Ever had trouble checking behind you while driving? Now there’s a newly patented side-view mirror that claims to eliminate that pesky blind spot.
The math professor who came up with the “wide angle substantially nondistorting mirror” says it works kind of like a mirrored disco ball — although it doesn’t look anything like one.
SNIP
**
Miriam – I will do my best to help you remember. Would love to see you there.
This past weekend was great fun. I knew my oldest son, who lives on the Eastern Shore of Virginia was coming for a visit because he was going to play in a golf outing with me. However, as a surprise to their old man all three sons came in for the weekend. On Saturday night we had a cookout at our home with our sons, my sister, her husband, their two daughters and children along with several friends. It was a great time with family & friends. Dan has a picture of the ribeyes we grilled for everyone and the crabmeat on top. The crabmeat, some oysters and clams were compliments of my oldest son. Believe me, a good time was had by all.
Sunday, my wife, our sons and my oldest son’s girlfriend took a commuter train into Chicago to spend the day there. Dan posted a picture I took during that trip.
Monday was the college golf outing and my two oldest sons played on my team (We shot 14 under par). The dinner after the golf for all the golfers and volunteers included prime rib and Chesapeake Bay oysters again compliments of my son. Again, a good time was had by all.
While I certainly enjoyed my sons as they were growing up, I especially enjoyed having them all home these last few days. Those of you with adult children, I think, know what I mean. I’m deeply appreciative that my sons decided to surprise with this early Father’s Day gift!!
This is funny. I never …… make that rarely paid attention to Dan’s blog in the 40 years I subscribed to the paper. Dan is one of the main reasons I finally quit 2 months ago, and it feels soooo good. The ignorant editorials and the price were the other reasons. Some dumb folks here in Roajoke!!
Re: Comment by Miriam — June 13, 2012 @ 10:21 am
Miriam,
I’ll try to remember to do a reminder. Please don’t just stand around. Join the picnic.
FWIIW, VCDL does not take a position on Open vs. Concealed carry — or even care if you attend our events w/o carrying. It’s your call.
Here’s one I’d like the kooks at Politico to explain. Even though this poll is about six weeks old, their numbers remain about the same. They have Romney leading Idiot Boy by 10 points among independents while mysteriously having 0bama ahead of Romney overall. We know conservatives outnumber the far-left kooks, so the mystery support isn’t from there. Where does it come from?
Answer: Nowhere. It’s made up. The notion that Idiot Boy is even close to Romney is a crock. It’s wishful thinking by the leftists who conduct these polls. It is not coincidence that exit polls from Wisconsin showed the recall election ‘too close to call” when in fact Walker won decisively. All this fake polling is related.
http://gillreport.com/2012/05/politico-poll-romney-48-obama-38-among-independents/
While taking the day off yesterday to get over a particularly nasty head cold, I had a chance to watch “Casino Jack and the United States of Money”. It is a documentary about the Abramoff / DeLay scandal, not to be confused with the dramatization done in “Casino Jack” starring Kevin Spacey.
If there was every a characterization that made it any more obvious that the republican party leadership did not have America in their best interests, it was in this movie. I’m not sure if it was Ralph Reed and DeLay’s partying lifestyle which then turned Christian when they found it could be lucrative to their business interests. It may have been how Abramoff had inadvertently shuttered a native american casino while trying to establish a monopoly for one tribe, by paying Ralph Reed’s think tank to campaign Texas to fight “the scourge of gambling” Then, took money from the shuttered tribe to re-open it, and paid Ralph Reed with it.
Ultimately, though, I think it was just the overall state of affairs that greed has created in the corruption of American politics by those who have money vs. those that do not. There is no doubt in my mind that similar activities are occurring under our noses, just with a much more private paper trail so as not to get caught.
Two thumbs up. See it and get angry at the system.
I would be up for one of those mirrors myself Dave. They look cool!
We knew this was coming. Some leftwing puke-bucket school board member calls for the banning of high school football.
“Comparing high school football to the gladiator fights of ancient times, Council Rock school board member Patty Sexton has called for banning the sport at the high school level.
Sexton, also a Philadelphia public school teacher, made her comments late at Thursday night’s Council Rock board meeting.
She said continuing the sport at schools funded by the general taxpayer base is inappropriate. It has become too dangerous and carries too much of a risk of lasting effects from injuries, especially concussions, Sexton said.
“It’s no longer appropriate for public institutions to fund gladiators,” she said. “I am very, very concerned about putting these student-athletes in the position of getting a concussion. Football has gotten faster, harder and more dangerous with each passing year. I’m extremely scared we will eventually be sued over injuries suffered in sports.”
It doesn’t make sense for publicly funded educational institutions to continue offering a sport that by its very nature includes physical and often violent contact on every play, Sexton said.”
http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/courier_times_news/cr-board-member-calls-for-banning-hs-football/article_4dbb7595-770a-589f-bf45-797606569742.html
Pretty soon we’ll be down to soccer, lacrosse, and race walking at the high school level. All silent. No cheering. And NO keeping score for godsake.
Bob, it’s hard for you to stay away from this blog, eh? Thanks for your patronage.
Suzie’s right. Obama has no chance. Romney’s already won. He doesn’t even need to campaign. He should just take it easy. He’s cinch to take the White House.
You keep on believing that, Suzie.
LOL, as if “explaining” anything registers with Suzie. Always good for a laugh though.
Oh, Ron, I’m so happy for you! There’s nothing like a houseful of family to show you what true wealth means. I’m lucky enough that all my children and grandchildren live close enough for us all to get together on most major holidays and some impromptu gatherings during the year as well.
I cannot imagine life without my children, their spouses, and my grandkids. I feel very sorry for people who don’t know the joy of being a parent and grandparent.
Bob, SuzieQ could look to your last sentence as a great example of “irony”.
And tell us, Bob, why you ‘just can’t quit’ Dan?
See? See me not saying anything, Dan? Just letting it go….
Suzie, you forgot “everyone gets a trophy” or participation award.
@Ron – so glad you had such a special surprise and fun time for Father’s Day.
@5 – Hey Bob, here’s a suggestion for ya: Quit some more. You aren’t doing a very good job of it.
http://tinyurl.com/7jq3vae
Jun 13, 2012 11:52am
‘Citizens United’ Bounces Back to Supreme Court
Justices are scheduled Thursday behind closed doors to discuss Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, the landmark 2010 decision holding that corporations can make unlimited independent expenditures using general treasury funds to support or oppose candidates.
Why would the justices revisit a case so soon after ruling on it? Because a lower court – the Montana Supreme Court – issued a ruling in 2011 that appears to contradict Citizens United.
The Montana court upheld a ban on corporate spending in Montana state elections, ruling that “unlike Citizens United, this case concerns Montana law, Montana elections and it arises from Montana history.”
SNIP
**
I’m posting this link here because this is the open thread. It appears there is no length to which gun control opponents will go.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47793431/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/
Re: Comment by Ron — June 13, 2012 @ 11:02 am
Thought we were all getting together for some bivalve molluscs from an appropriate brackish habitat when he came.
Kidding aside, sounds like a good time and I hope you did enjoy the oysters, et al — as well as the visit.
Suzie’s right. Obama has no chance. Romney’s already won. He doesn’t even need to campaign. He should just take it easy. He’s cinch to take the White House.
That’s pretty much it. The only way he could possibly lose is for the state-controlled media to spread some false story at the last minute like we had with George Allen. Even then I think it would be tough.
0bama’s handlers are extremely frustrated that calling Romney a capitalist hasn’t hurt him. They thought it would.
Pretty jealous of Ron’s shellfish connections.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html
Shiver. Obama’s only up 51 electoral college votes over Rmoney. Panic time!
Yeah Suzie, you nailed it, Romney has no problems at all for just being a “capitalist”:
Romney Problem Is the Bain of Wall Street
Gordon Gekko may be a problem for Mitt Romney
Romney’s Higher Education Plan: A Giveaway To The Wall Street Banks And Predatory Schools That Fund His Campaign
Keep digging.
Dan,
I am heading to Roanoke sometime this weekend. Where is the place you are always talking about that has all the varieties of beer? I might get a chance to check it out.
Newman,
Blue 5, on Second Street @ Kirk Avenue, has 50+ kinds of beer on tap. Great stuff — and not cheap, either. Some varieties are $7 a pint.
BUT … Blue 5 is having The Nighthawks Friday, June 22. No cover. Reservations required, tho.
The band recently celebrated their 40th anniversary. Column upcoming!
Where is the special prosecutor? It’s time for Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. to go. It’s just a matter of time. President Obama needs a scapegoat.
From the Washington Post “The controversy involves a number of news stories about the Obama administration’s active role in clandestine operations against al-Qaeda and other adversaries. They include the Associated Press’s reporting about a disrupted terrorist plot by al-Qaeda’s affiliate in Yemen, articles in several publications about the expanded U.S. drone campaign in Yemen, and reports in the New York Times that described President Obama’s role in approving “kill lists” for CIA drones and the use of computer viruses and cyber weapons against Iran.”
Wow! Talk about a Coca Cola cowboy. Maybe he can approve the “kill list” for the urban terrorist stalking his old neighborhood next February after he gets fired for being the most inept POTUS in modern history.
Dave Hicks@1:29
The Supreme Court has the opportunity for a reprieve and a chance to correct what may be the worst decision in Supreme Court History. Let’s hope that Kennedy will wake up and come down on the right side of this one and get rid of that hoprrible miscarriage of justice once and for all.
Wow, will. “clandestine operations against al quaeda”? Get the heck out of town! Whooda thunk it! Stop the presses!
Hey will, just to jog your memory…back under the Bush years we called this “fighting the evildoers and spreading the joys of democracy”. It just wasn’t as successful.
Sorry ’bout your luck will, but “most inept POTUS in modern history” is already taken. Even if Obama is not re-elected he still has the truth for the history books. You guys are literally unreal. Bush could not be blamed for anything to do with 9/11 that happened on his watch. Bush could not be blamed with anything to do with the economic crisis that started on his watch. Bush cannot be blamed for the deficit, increase in the debt or the failed policies accumulated over 8 long hard years of his watch, but Obama wrecked the world in less than one term. You people are not even rational. Partisan Derangement Syndrome is real, PDS needs to be studied, start with the right wing and quarantine them until it is figured out.
Huzzah, Virginia ABC has given their decree from on high that all ABC Stores have permission to open on Sundays from 1pm-6pm.
Alas, no more Day-before-football-day scrambles to make sure there is enough booze in the pantry! No More 3 Day Weekend Sundays with closed doors!
Of course, this is all subject to local laws, so I imagine all the bumpkin counties will either enact laws or already have them on the books.
Miriam:
“However, I actually may swing by the gun-toting park picnic. I don’t live far from there and it would be an opportunity to meet a few of the folks here, stand around in the (hopefully) sunshine, be sort of privately amused by all the holstered guns, and whatnot.”
Yeah! I hope to meet you Miriam! Maybe Dan and some others will show too?
For that matter, I’d like to meet Contra, 13 Suns, and some of the others here too…
Since this is the open thread, I have been following the Sandusky case, and noticed a parallel to a local court case. According to testimony of one of Sandusky’s alleged victims, the victim informed school authorities of what Sandusky was allegedly doing. They did not believe him. Then there are the folks at Hidden Valley High, who, when a student reported that he was raped at a party, charged him with underage drinking. Apparently, adults in these positions of authority are genetically programmed not to believe what children tell them. Especially if the kids are troubled. To quote Sgt. Schultz (Hogan’s Heroes): “I see nothing.”
Are you guys doing to be doing any target practice in Green Hill Park? That might be fun.
Or are the guns just for show? Or in case a mountain lion attacks? . . .
#17 Yeah, UTR, the county schools set a good example. At HV this year they ran out of valedictorian awards because they were giving away so many.
Or Rabid Salemites high on bath salts who’ve wandered over from the fair?
#10 Of course this makes sense at a public high school that is trying to save money since football is the biggest revenue drain among all sports. And football does indeed cause sometimes horrendous injuries. In the Roanoke area I can remember at least two cases of paralysis and one death, and that’s without even looking anything up. There’s no way to add up the damage caused by concussions and joint injuries. There’s a guy down the street from me who payed high school and college and he’s now had two knee replacements and one hip. And he’s stayed in good shape all his life.
old blue, my understanding is that school employees are all mandatory reports to child abuse. Someone needs to lose their job if the witness’s story pans out. Probably more than one “somebody”.
gdad, I work with a guy whose son graduated from CS last week and he had NO IDEA of their “Everyone’s a winner!” philosophy. He came to work cracking up about it.
Re: Comment by Dan Casey — June 13, 2012 @ 4:24 pm
The guns will be there because we will be there and most of us carry anywhere that it is legal to carry.
We get together for picnic meetings and/or restaurant meal meetings a number of times a year. You are welcome to come to any of them.
We’ll be at that park … well read Comment by Dave Hicks — June 11, 2012 @ 9:32 pm on thread @ http://tinyurl.com/7n3juo4 It’s called an “Oh, yes we can!” picnic for a reason. It’s an educational event.
Shame on Roanoke Co. for having such convoluted language creating a chilling effect on a constitutional right and misleading their citizens as to their rights under the Constitution and Virginia Law.
A cop dies of a heart attack while participating in a Ménage à trois. His wife, who was not part of the trio, sued his Dr. for malpractice for misdiagnosing him and not warning against strenuous activities, and was awarded 3 million dollars by the jury.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/06/cop-dies-during-3-way-sex-widow-wins-3-million/1?csp=ip
oldblue
That was a pretty ignorant post based on the facts that have been released about that case at Hidden Valley. The sexual abuse was reported to the authorities on the very day that the student reported it. The chain of command and school procedures were followed to the letter with the people who were supposed to be notified given that notification. And the abuser has been convicted and is in jail. None of that changed the fact that the student wqs and had been out of control, had been drinking heavily overnight when the abuse occurred, and showed up at school with an elevated blood alcohol content. The suit is bogus and is an attempt by parents who had lost control of their son to wiggle some cash out of the situation. The fact that the student was asked to tell his story to three different people on the same day doesn’t ater the fact that it was properly reported to the authorities.
Speaking of “Ignorance and Sophistry”:
http://www.politicususa.com/rush-limbaugh-attacks-police-firefighters-contributing-economy.html
FlimFlambaugh thinks that teachers, firefighters and police “do not contribute to economic growth“.
Welcome to the jungle!
Sales clerks, waiters, marketing execs — they are all paid for with money out of the private sector. They are paid for with money from citizens. They cut into the amount of money we all have left for ourselves. They don’t grow the number of private sector jobs, they just have them. They do not contribute to economic growth any more than a government worker does.
@Dan Casey: “Are you guys doing to be doing any target practice in Green Hill Park? That might be fun.”
Fun? Definitely. Legal? Definitely not.
Shiver. Obama’s only up 51 electoral college votes over Rmoney. Panic time!
Yeah, the only problem is Romney is favored in every single one of the ‘toss-up’ states. Even Michigan.
Landslide.
@Dave Hicks: “Shame on Roanoke Co. for having such convoluted language creating a chilling effect on a constitutional right and misleading their citizens as to their rights under the Constitution and Virginia Law.”
A buddy of mine just filed a lawsuit in Orlando (where he lives) against the Orange County Library System for posting a sign in violation of their preemption laws. The sign, just as the Roanoke County Ordinance, chills the exercise of Constitutional Rights.
He is expected to win, and, as you know about Florida.. the award comes out of someone’s pocket… not the taxpayers’, either.
I am very pleased the GOP is hammering 0bama on his “the private sector is fine” reality disconnect. Romney blasts the idiot for it in every single speech. That’s the way to go.
Make him pay out the ass for his Kerry moment.
I’ve been reading a bio of John D. Rockefeller. What an amazing man. He lived to be 98 and at one point was worth 1/50th of the US GDP. Gates doesn’t even approach that level of wealth. Dude had $1.5 billion in 1933. Incredibly his grandson David Rockefeller is still alive. How many people alive today can say their grandfather was an adult before the Civil War?? He starting tithing when he was a very young man. The driving force behind his life was to make as miuch as he could so he could give away as much as he could. The world would be a whole lot better off if more people thought that way.
EDUCATED Mormon Romney supporter responds to a gay Republican (Fred Karger) campaigning in Utah. One of those QUALITY people from the Republican base.:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gay-republican-presidential-candidate-fred-karger-gets-rough-205847849.html
Just like gun control, or libel, slander and inciting a riot, rights have limits and “literally’ betraying a right is not the only reason for some control.
Separation of Church and State was embraced as an important ideal even before the Constitution or the Bill of Rights were written. Many do consider it a “sacred principle” just as some consider other things about the founding of our nation as sacred. Many, consider that separation and assurance of it to be the foundation of our democracy, the reason we were so easily a “melting pot” and the quick assimilation we enjoyed for a very long time that most considered enriching. Along with that separation assurance is the assurance that it is not a hostile environment for any religious belief.
The same “literalness” that insists that only legislation can establish a religion, insists we ignore the first part of the Second Amendment in most discussions. Original intent applies here and their intent was not promotion of any religion. They clearly could have, in multiple ways, and no one at that time would have dared gainsay it. They didn’t and they didn’t for a reason.
Even if you go the route that says only legislation can establish, the inclusion of religious displays, themes, prayers, and rituals as well as the dismissal of any challenge is a path to how legislation is born into law. Let’s just say this “nips it in the bud”.
Sorry, that was a cut & past to the wrong thread!
Make that cut and paste.
A cop dies of a heart attack while participating in a Ménage à trois. His wife, who was not part of the trio, sued his Dr. for malpractice for misdiagnosing him and not warning against strenuous activities, and was awarded 3 million dollars by the jury.
And you leftwingers wonder why our health care costs are high. They don’t allow this sh*t in Thailand. That’s where we’re going if we need something done.
John D Rockefeller was an unethical robber baron who used illegal methods and rode the South Imporovemnet company scandal with illegal bribes and price fixing in conjunction with the railroads to a monopoly position in the American Oil Refining business. He rode the backs of his underpaid employees and his illegal underhanded activities to accumulate a vast fortune before his business practices were finally cut down by the Sherman Antitrust Act. He then attempted to rehabilitate his reputation by playing the role of philnthropist in his later life.. He was such an unbending taskmaster that he drove his son JD , Jr. to a nervous breakdown at age 13 from the pressure of overwork. He was also a moralist who thought he knew best and believed in having the government legislate morality to control the people. This was evidenced by his staunch support of prohibition.The Rockefeller foundation ultimately accomplished some good things (including financing the renovation of Colonial Williamsburg)
but he was basically not a nice man and his family and his employees bore the brunt of his hyer dominating personality. It figures that he would be one of Suzie’s heroes, along with that paragon of journalism Rash Limpbutt.
Debbie:
“cop dies of a heart attack while participating in a Ménage à trois. His wife, who was not part of the trio, sued his Dr. for malpractice for misdiagnosing him and not warning against strenuous activities, and was awarded 3 million dollars by the jury.”
Ah, just when I question whether dreams can come true, Debbie renews my hope!
Twit Romney had better bone-up on his debating skills. A split screen won’t be enough to cover all his positions, you’ll need a freakin’ collage.
There are so many ways to hammer this guy. From Romneycare to abortion to immigration, the campaign commercials write themselves. The only question left unanswered is how will the republicans weigh the ticket to attract Evangelical voters? Can you say “Vice President Falwell?”
Is there anything we could do to convince Suzie to go to Thailand now and never come back. Thailand’s loss would be AZmerica’s gain!
Hum????
http://tinyurl.com/bnn26fu
**
The Once-and-for-All Solution to Our Campaign Finance Problems
How citizens can unite to undo Citizens United.
By Laurence H. Tribe|Posted Wednesday, June 13, 2012, at 01:55:06 PM ET
This month, some of Slate’s favorite legal eagles are proposing their favorite Constitutional amendments, in the service of our effort, with Me the People author Kevin Bleyer, to rewrite the founding document. We have three proposals about campaigns and elections: Today from Laurence W. Tribe, and tomorrow from Heather Gerken and Richard L. Hasen.
Here also are proposals about the right to trial by jury, protecting informational privacy, amending the Constitution by national referendum, electing the attorney general, moving up the date of the presidential inauguration, restoring the balance of war powers, Supreme Court term limits, forcing Congress to fix the rules of congressional procedure, and a right to health care.
SNIP
**
Dan, the guns just come with us getting together and would be there whether it were a publicized event or not. Sorry, but I don’t expect anyone to enhance the show for you or anyone else.
On the Houston SYG thread you and Newman asked “How can I stand my ground in your yard?”
I was reminded today exactly how. I had some assignments in Craig County doing recon for two mortgage companies. It’s NOT the most fun part of my job, but has to be done, and is always risking the hostile homeowner that doesn’t take kindly to my lawful, but unannounced presence on their property taking pictures and making a report of their property. If I were ever threatened on one of those and had to defend myself, that would be clear case of standing my ground in their yard. I sure hope that never happens, but it was in the back of my mind today in more than one of those neighborhoods.
Suzie:
“They don’t allow this sh*t in Thailand. That’s where we’re going if we need something done.”
That’s where your third lives?
Suzie…are you saying you are going to Thailand
to see if you are healthy enough to engage in a 3 way?
Im not certain health would be the thing to get in the way.
Im just not certain who the “we” is in your statement.
@Ron #21-
Read up on microstamping. It’s an absurdly flawed technology that will do little, if anything, to fight crime.
“Thailand”
Try the Hemlock Pho, I hear it’s delicious.
John and joe @ 62 and 63:
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ROTFLMAOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
I know this is probably unnecessary, but in case anyone thinks that Suzie’s interpretation of the polls is meaningful, please checkout Nate Silver’s 538 blog at the NY Times.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/
Silver is open about his politics being to the left, but he is mercilessly devoted to accuracy, always indicating if a given poll leans in either direction. In the last election, he correctly called 49 states.
His current statistical model gives Obama a 61.6% chance to win the election. More importantly, he is currently predicting Obama’s electoral vote total to be 289.
He then attempted to rehabilitate his reputation by playing the role of philnthropist in his later life.
Rockefeller tithed to charity from the time he was 20 years old. He kept his prices to low even though he had a monopoly (very similar to today). He was a very involved parent about whom his son JDR2 said he was the best father anyone could ever imagine having. His initial offers to buy out competitors were very fair. If they refused to sell, he put them out of business with his efficiency. His model of business efficiency made America the #1 economic powerhouse in the world, another reason leftwingers hated him.
Rockefeller would be embarrassed at his descendants JDR4 who plundered a poor state and supported socialist legislation for 30 years and his son JOR5 who is a leftwing whack English professor. Neither man has made a contribution to this country and pale in comparison to the great man.
Silver is open about his politics being to the left, but he is mercilessly devoted to accuracy
Two incongruous clauses. The guy is a leftwing hack working for a Communist newspaper. Besides that, he’s wrong. Idiot Boy is in freefall.
#57 Always glad to give someome hope, John W.
I guess Suzie and hubby will be going to Thailand to get a Dr’s approval before participating in a 3-way.
@ 61 John Wilburn. Sounds like you were there without the owner’s permission. Unannounced, armed and taking photos isn’t a good way to avoid standing your ground. Could he have told you to leave? Can photos be taken without the homeowner’s permission? You wouldn’t have to stand your ground at my house, unless you refused to leave, but you might want some ear plugs.
Jason,
Then why is the NRA and other pro-gun groups fighting it so vigorously??
It seems like “microstamping” (like DNA) is a newer technology but I think it most certainly has implications for SOLVING crimes. Maybe if someone knows the bullet can be traced, they will think twice about committing a crime. Doubtless it will do little to “fight crime”. Since the only efforts we are going to be allowed to make are for “after the fact”, crime solving is an important part of the equation and should be pursued. Why would law abiding gun owners object to solving crimes?
@Newman: “Can photos be taken without the homeowner’s permission?”
Yes, just ask Google.
@Sandi: “It seems like “microstamping” (like DNA)…”
Please don’t compare DNA to something that can be changed or completely removed for the cost of a double-cheeseburger.
Also, you are incorrect about the bullet being traceable. Microstamping has nothing to do with bullets.
@Sandi Saunders: “Why would law abiding gun owners object to solving crimes?”
I don’t object to it so long as it is proven to even help solve crimes, proven to be reliable and does not cost a dime more to purchase my gun because of it.
I’m not willing to pay money to make the police officer’s job easier.
Additionally, for this to work, it would require gun registration laws, which I would not support.
Can you just go on someone’s property like that? Really?
Bazinga! NRA offers Stand Your Ground liability and legal costs insurance. So far, though, you can’t buy insurance against people who already own this insurance.
Somehow I doubt that hubby brings wifey to Thailand for his “check-ups”.
JohnW, I’d say that you’re the one more likely to be shot in that scenario.
#74 Last I checked, Google doesn’t go on your property for the photos. Do they?
Google takes pix from public roads, which is what Stephanie Klein- Davis and I were trying to do when Pat Robertson’s bodyguard pulled a gun on us.
BTW, we did not take VRWC’s advice and say, “Just shoot me, MFer!”
But we did stand our ground, unarmed.
“John Wilburn. Sounds like you were there without the owner’s permission. Unannounced, armed and taking photos isn’t a good way to avoid standing your ground. Could he have told you to leave? Can photos be taken without the homeowner’s permission?”
Newman, Sandi, Kristen,
Yes, I have the right to be there. When someone borrows money on a house, in and among all the stuff they agree to with the mortgage company is the right for them to check up on the property. I was there on their behalf and the mortgagor’s signed for that. I also run into occasional resistance from the tenants when in a listed property, albeit that’s less common. It does say in their lease that even though they have “tenant’s rights” for the term of their lease, the owner reserves the right to show, sell, and grant access to contractors. Anyone can take pictures from the public street, however.
I don’t know who brought up microstamping, but it is a complete joke. A jeweler’s file or firing pin change can defeat it in a matter of seconds. I think it’s funny that anyone still takes it seriously.
@gdad: “#74 Last I checked, Google doesn’t go on your property for the photos. Do they?”
Not what he asked…
@Newman: “Can photos be taken without the homeowner’s permission?”
Seriously Jack, I was not “comparing” microstamping to DNA. I was making the point that DNA was once new, unknown and untried and now it is standard evidence.
I have no clue if this will “work” but I see no reason not to go for it. What is the down side?
None of this can be “proven” until it is tried and implemented. I am not even saying it should be admissible in court or considered a “gold standard”, I am just saying it sounds promising and needs to be pursued.
Maybe the bottom line is your phobia over gun registration not the efforts to solve crimes. Plenty of you folks pop for premium ammo now, so stop whining. Seriously how much ammo do you use, that price is so prohibitive?
Google does not come onto any property. Bogus comparison.
Good one Jack. I wonder if Google takes a person out of one of their map pics if they get in their by accident?
Okay John W., you’ve convinced me you could go onto the property legally. Does the concealed law still apply if the homeowner doesn’t want a gun on their property? He couldn’t get you for trespassing per the bank or lease contract, but could he get you for the gun? Does one “right” trump the other so to speak?
Ron-
Because it would require manufacturers to pay for and install equipment in the name of a technology that can be defeated easily. The NRA are basically shills for the gun industry, so of course they are going to fight it. They just happen to be right in this case.
Sandi-
Flaws with microstamping:
*Has no effect on revolvers because revolvers don’t eject their shell casings.
*Casings can be picked up by the criminal.
*The parts that make the stamp can be altered to remove the stamp.
*Firing pins are easily replaceable and cheap parts.
*All of the states that are attempting to require it are grandfathering in old guns without the technology which means that there will be hundreds of thousands, if not millions of non-microstamping guns available.
*The criminal can get rid of the gun.
*The stamping doesn’t trace the gun to the user, it traces it to the owner. If the gun is stolen…
*Criminal can use a brass catcher.
*Criminal can get loads of spent casings at a shooting range and use them to seed a crime scene.
*For the whole thing to work, a registration system must be in place and that’s a no-no. Otherwise, “Officer, I sold that gun years ago. I don’t remember the guy’s name.”
*The total percentage of guns used in murders is very low (.0052% per year assuming 13,000 gun murders and 250,000,000 guns in the country). The average “age” of a gun used in crime is about ten years. So it would take literally decades for the number of stamping guns in circulation to be of any utility (and that’s not taking into account the many ways it can be defeated).
So we are talking about, AT BEST, solving a tiny fraction of a fraction of a fraction of gun crimes. And that assumes that this easily beatable tech works as advertised, which is not a given. Worse still, as with most gun control efforts, it takes attention away from the real issues that drive gun crime. “Fix our educational system? Get better social safety nets? End the drug war? Go after straw purchasers with a vengeance? Naw, let’s insist on gimmicky nonsense that will not move the needle of gun crime an inch.”
86.”Okay John W., you’ve convinced me you could go onto the property legally. Does the concealed law still apply if the homeowner doesn’t want a gun on their property? He couldn’t get you for trespassing per the bank or lease contract, but could he get you for the gun? Does one “right” trump the other so to speak?”
That’s a good legal question and I’m not 100% sure, but logic says that even though a private property owner can kick anyone off their proerty anytime without any reason, they agreed in advance to people like me having the right to do this per the terms of their mortgage. The gun doesn’t actually make the difference. I don’t know where they get to pick and choose discriminating criteria of the field reps after the fact. I don’t think it’s their choice at this point.
#82 I realize that, Jack, but I was pointing out what seems to me to be a MAJOR difference in the two.
John Wilburn, are you saying you now work for a mortgage company?
@John Wilburn: “I don’t know who brought up microstamping, but it is a complete joke. A jeweler’s file or firing pin change can defeat it in a matter of seconds. I think it’s funny that anyone still takes it seriously.”
If I were a criminal, I would pay $20 for a second firing pin. When I am going to commit a crime, I’ll spend five minutes swapping the pin, then commit my crime, then put my microstamped pin back in and there is no way that it came from my gun… see… there’s no stamp!
If I’m really smart I’ll spend a couple hundred bucks and do the same thing with a different barrel.
That costs more, but takes even less time to swap out than the firing pin.
But.. for the naive people, it seems like an unbeatable, perfect solution.
@Sandi: “I have no clue if this will “work” but I see no reason not to go for it. What is the down side?”
What’s the down side? The down side is that people think it will work. When it does not work, because the stamp was different or not on the gun at all, they will take that as gospel, when all it really was was a $5.. 5 minute firing pin change.
@Sandi: “None of this can be “proven” until it is tried and implemented. I am not even saying it should be admissible in court or considered a “gold standard”, I am just saying it sounds promising and needs to be pursued.”
It can be proven, and John Wilburn and I would proudly prove it for you. You bring the gun, complete with microstamp and everything. If you don’t have one with a microstamp, just take a sharpie and make the tip of your firing pin black. That’ll still work.
Let us know ahead of time what kind of gun you will be bringing, that’ll be important.
Hand us the gun… we’ll disappear behind a magic curtain for just a few short minutes, then we will say some magic words so it seems a little bit more involved than it is, and we’ll pop out with the brand new, unmarked firing pin in the gun and the other one in the pocket.
But having an unmarked firing pin is now a crime, you say? That’s easy enough… back behind the curtain again and five short moments later and the marked firing pin is back in there.
“Your honor, it could not have been my client. He has a gun with a microstamp on the firing pin and there was no microstamp on the primer.”
OR…
“Your honor, it could not have been my client. He has a gun with a microstamp on the firing pin and the microstamp on the primer points to Eric Holder’s gun!”
If I can get a firing pin with no microstamp on it, I can certainly get one with a different stamp on it.
Jason, the article mentioned almost all of that but the question remains, because it is not perfect it should not be considered? Because it is not fool-proof it should not be implemented? Owners who do not report stolen guns are a big part of the problem already so pardon me for not caring if they are bothered by this.
It sure seems to me like law abiding citizens would welcome technology that can aid in apprehending even some criminals. I do not get it that it has to be perfect and fool-proof before implementation, what else is?
The “real issues” will be “fixed” when hell freezes over or the TP/GOP ceases to exist. Why we have to wait for either to be proactive on crime does not make sense.
Although….some of your “cons” do make a good argument for registration and gun tracking since owners are so irresponsible as to not report a stolen gun or know who they sold one to. Thanks!
@Newman: “Does the concealed law still apply if the homeowner doesn’t want a gun on their property? He couldn’t get you for trespassing per the bank or lease contract, but could he get you for the gun?”
Having the gun without permission of the owner is trespassing. As I’ve tried to inform Sandi on more than several occasions, it is not a “gun crime,” it is trespassing. Nothing more, nothing less.
@Jason: “So we are talking about, AT BEST, solving a tiny fraction of a fraction of a fraction of gun crimes.”
Not even that small fraction… as an interested citizen I would file an amicus brief with the court and clear the entire matter up by demonstrating just how easy it is to defeat.
Reasonable doubt via amicus brief… providing the defense attorney is a dumbsh**.
Jack, I never said it was a crime. My question to John Wilburn was, does his right to be there as an agent of the bank give him the right to carry his gun over the objections of the owner/renter? According to him, he is there legally on behalf of his client. Could he be arrested for trespassing for refusing to leave after being asked to do so , because he was carrying a gun?
@Sandi: “…since owners are so irresponsible as to not report a stolen gun or know who they sold one to.”
It’s not irresponsible. First, you’re not required to know who you sold the gun to. Even if you knew, you’re not required to remember. Second.. I’m not even certain you are required to report one as stolen.
Am I required by law to report if my TV is stolen? How about my car?
What if I don’t want it back? To me, it seems the only reason one might report something stolen is if they want it returned.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-06-14/texas-stand-your-ground/55592380/1?csp=ip
“A retired Houston-area firefighter faces up to life in prison after a jury convicted him of murder for gunning down his unarmed neighbor during a dispute over a noisy house party.”
@Sandi Saunders: “…because it is not perfect it should not be considered? Because it is not fool-proof it should not be implemented? … It sure seems to me like law abiding citizens would welcome technology that can aid in apprehending even some criminals”
You’re right… this is why I’m a huge proponent of the $8,000,000,000/year TSA that fails to find 76% of the prohibited items they look for.
Hey, it’s only $8billion a year and they do find SOMETHING, even if it is just a few benign items.
90.”John Wilburn, are you saying you now work for a mortgage company?”
We’re contracted for property inspections of properties where they hold the deed of trust. Mortgage companies need people in the field to check on them, make sure they’re occupied, by tenant or owner, the utilities are on, the place is secure, etc. It’s pick-up work that goes well with what we do. We have listings scattered out everywhere anyway, so we combine our own regular listing inspections with theirs.
JohnW, I’d say that to someone who feels threatened by a stranger prowling their property taking pictures, whether or not you have the “legal” right to be there would be the last of their concerns.
They could ask later.
As usual you all are going to extremes. And you want us to “trust you” to have guns. Geez.
The technology needs to be pursued, implemented, tested and disseminated in controls, studies, test groups, etc. NO ONE is saying that anyone will or should rush into court with this newfangled plan. NO ONE is saying it will solve any substantial number of crimes at any point. It is ONE avenue of capability that needs to be looked into and you all cannot even allow for that. You are obsessive and you prove with every thread that crime, guns in the wrong hands, and justice simply do not matter unless they never impact you or your “cause”. I find it funny that you can manage to slam the ACLU when you are just as single-minded as they have ever been.
Jack:
“It can be proven, and John Wilburn and I would proudly prove it for you.”
I’ll take that challenge anyday. I’ll also take the bet that I can swap the barrel of my Glock in under 10 seconds. Jason did a great job of debunking the microstamping nonsense, too.
This reminds me of the millions of dollars GM spent developing the anti-theft car key in the 90s. ALL it was, was a resistor pellet on the key and they only used six different ranges. Criminals and repo people quickly amassed a set of said resistors (about 50 cents apiece) and were back to business as usual fooling the now “theft proof” ignitions. That technology was a joke too. The difference is that GM realized it and gave up, where the antis won’t give up on microstamping.
Jack:
“Having the gun without permission of the owner is trespassing.”
But Jack, there is a big difference here. The owner still granted permissions to the lender when borrowing money from them. Allowing the mortgagee to have contractors out is among them.
Sandi:
“…because it [microstamping] is not perfect it should not be considered?”
Imperfect things could be considered, but this is not imperfect. It is laughable.
The disappearance of the TP or GOP will not solve societies problems. Surely you were kidding.
@Sandi Saunders: “And you want us to “trust you” to have guns.”
Don’t flatter yourself. I don’t care one bit about whether you trust me or not.
@Sandi Saunders: “The technology needs to be pursued, implemented, tested and disseminated in controls, studies, test groups, etc.”
We should spend enough money to pursue, implement, test and disseminate in controls, studies and test groups my new theory that the sky is green.
Or, we could just look out the window and see that it is blue and save ourselves a bunch of money.
John Wilburn — Sandi cracks me up. She’d spend a crapton of money trying to prove that 1+1=3. You’d prove that it is 2, and she’d insist that we continue to study it because every once in a while it might actually be 3.
Laughable is an understatement.
“The disappearance of the TP or GOP will not solve societies problems. ”
Not all of them, maybe.
@106. John W. One more time, does your permission by the bank to be on the property negate the owner/tenant right to not want a gun on his property. Could he ask you to leave because of the gun?
John Wilburn, are you saying that mortgage companies or banks, routinely pay for “property inspections of properties where they hold the deed of trust“? Is that what you are saying? How can you tell if they are “occupied, by tenant or owner, the utilities are on, the place is secure,” from a cursory visit, do you peep in the windows? That would be unacceptable to me too.
Sandi-
“NO ONE is saying that anyone will or should rush into court with this newfangled plan.”
Umm, you know it’s already been passed in California, right? The only thing holding up its enforcement is that the tech had to pass into the public domain before it could be used, and a gun rights group, in a bit of hilarious chicanery, paid to extend the patent. Once it expires, this will be the law in the most populated state in the country.
“NO ONE is saying it will solve any substantial number of crimes at any point.”
I take it you mean no one here. Because proponents are doing exactly that.
Sandi, Jack, JohnW
You don’t need “permission” of the owner to have a gun on private property.
One is trespassing if they enter the property after having been forbidden to do so.
See: http://tinyurl.com/3hj4kgv
**
§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.
If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.
**
The same law applies to “Proper Golf Attire Required” / “No Wet Bathing Suits Beyond This Point” / “No Pets” / etc
“NO ONE is saying it will solve any substantial number of crimes at any point.”
I’ll write up my amicus brief and post the template online. It will detail how the microstamping is unreliable and will provide proof of how it can be defeated in five minutes, with five dollars, and then reverted back to its original condition with an additional five minutes of time.
Anyone who is convicted of a crime and the microstamp (or lack of) is introduced in court is welcome to use my brief to have the evidence dismissed, or at a minimum, cast a huge cloud of reasonable doubt.
I’m not in favor of criminals getting away with a crime, but I am in favor of using evidence against them that is reliable.
@Dave Hicks – “The same law applies to “Proper Golf Attire Required” / “No Wet Bathing Suits Beyond This Point” / “No Pets” / etc”
I’ve been saying that, but it still seems that people here believe that carrying a gun into Valley View mall is a crime for which one should be arrested and charged.
Dave Hicks, “One is trespassing if they enter the property after having been forbidden to do so”
So if I wait til you’re in my yard, or I didn’t see you come onto my property, before I tell you I don’t want a gun on my property, I’m stuck with you and the gun? That’s the way you have that written.
Dave, please read #112. I understand John W. has a right to come onto the property. The question nobody wants to answer is can the owner/tenant tell him not to bring a gun?
Oddly, I do not find crime fighting/solving tools to be laughable or useless at all.
Yes Jason, I was aware of that “chicanery” (and the gun lobby would take up arms if that had been done to them), but it being passed into law enforcement capability is a hell of a long way from a court admitting it without challenge or a jury believing it.
How can their be penalties if there is no crime?
Pardon, how can there be penalties if there is not crime?
Newman, I said I didn’t know for sure, but remember while I have the bank’s permission to be there, the owner gave it to the bank in the first place.
Sandi, I’m not looking into anyone’s windows, but am looking for activity, stuff going on, pets, lights on, moving gas or electric meters, grass height, construction, damage, and other things. Since I call them routinely, I don’t usually get any static from the utility companies verifying service or exactly whose service it is. Geez, you’re in favor of control over everything and big brother in every aspect of our lives, but when I’m helping prevent loan fraud, now you’re concerned. If you’re afraid of finding me in front of your house snapping pictures and writing a report, pay your mortgage on time OR go the other way and invite me in to measure and take lots of pictures and I’ll list it
Dave Hicks, to be clear, I know very well I don’t need their permission to carry on their property. If they don’t like it, I’ll wait on the public sidewalk until the police arrive so they can muzzle the homeowner and let me do my job. Or just get the pictures and get out of there. Again, there are a lot of people who have rights to go on your property, like utility easements, for example. This isn’t new.
Sandi: “Oddly, I do not find crime fighting/solving tools to be laughable or useless at all.”
Okay… let me rephrase it… it is laughable that you find microprinting to be a “crime fighting/solving tool.”
JohnW, you’re pretty much all about your own rights with not much left over for anyone else’s.
Like I said…based on your scenario, the only person likely to be shot is you.
Sandi,
I agree that while not foolproof, the microstamping of firing pins offers additional “weapons” to police investigating crimes involving firearms. Police Chiefs across the country are nearly unanimously in favor of microstamping legislation because they too understand that it gives them new ways to find the perps. Despite what some have said, the state legislation in most states under consideration does not require “retrofitting” existing firearms. The approximate additional cost to install a microstamp firing pin is $12 per gun.
There are many challenges involved in solving gun crimes. Microstamping will add an arrow to the quiver of law enforcement in solving crimes.
John W.,
Most other folk ain’t carrying a gun when they’re representing a company or locality.
Sandi-
“Oddly, I do not find crime fighting/solving tools to be laughable or useless at all.”
This is the kind of thing you say that reveals you to be someone who is not arguing in good faith or even putting the slightest thought into what you say. No one here is saying that crime fighting tools are laughable or useless. We are saying that this particular tool is laughable and useless BECAUSE IT WON’T WORK.
Even calling it a “tool” is being generous. And reading this board has given me plenty of experience recognizing tools.
Newman,
I have a call into my lawyer now regarding the matter. I can tell you this though, I AM NOT going to risk my life doing my job just to make someone else feel better. Yesterday, I had to walk through a trailer park to get to one of the properties. There was a syringe lying on the ground, no trespassing signs galore, growling dogs, and neighbors watching me. The elements for things to go bad were all present. You should understand why someone else’s attitude toward my lawful carry doesn’t mean much to me.
Sandi:
122.”Pardon, how can there be penalties if there is not crime?
You’d think this much we’d agree on.
Re: Comment by Newman — June 14, 2012 @ 3:17 pm
Note the “or remains upon the lands” wording of § 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.
John W.,
Pretty arrogant thinking the police are going to “muzzle” the homeowner (see 123) simply because he has a problem with you bringing a firearm on his property. He just might not take your side as quickly as you think. He might ask you to compromise and put it in the car. Of course, we know you can’t do that! I’m wondering if the bank knows you carry a gun when you are conducting their business.
“Pretty arrogant thinking the police are going to “muzzle” the homeowner (see 123) simply because he has a problem with you bringing a firearm on his property.”
Pretty arrogant of him to get behind on the mortgage and then give me static over it.
“I’m wondering if the bank knows you carry a gun when you are conducting their business.”
I open carry in all three of my banks. One used to have a policy against carry, but I asked them to get rid of it. Their president told me the more they thought about it, the less they could justify the value of the sign. He also admitted it was a knee-jerk reaction to April 16th. The signs are gone, they got a lot of positive feedback, and their business is thriving.
Kristen:
125.”JohnW, you’re pretty much all about your own rights with not much left over for anyone else’s.”
So the mortgage company has no right to inspect to protect it’s stake in the deal. They have more money at stake than anyone.
127.”John W.,
Most other folk ain’t carrying a gun when they’re representing a company or locality.”
Ha, how do you know? It’s their choice… as it should be. 80% of my office has a CHP. One agent chooses not to and I respect that choice.
Ron:
“The approximate additional cost to install a microstamp firing pin is $12 per gun.”
The cost of a jeweler’s file or sandroll is a only couple of bucks! I wonder how long the stamp stays legible? Enough practice would wear it out.
Ron, if you assault people’s rights and privacy deeply enough you can build a pretty big quiver there, but more is not always better, especially flawed ideas that should simply be scrapped. You’d think the anti’s would be embarrased to still be touting that.
“There was a syringe lying on the ground, no trespassing signs galore, growling dogs, and neighbors watching me. The elements for things to go bad were all present. ”
So you see garbage, hear dogs barking, and notice people are watching you (how Zimmerman of them) and assume that things are going to “go bad”. It explains why you go everywhere with a gun.
If my job scared me that much, I’d get another one. Just sayin’.
Oh I see Jason, balking at something stupid is not “arguing in good faith” and thinking that the flip responses do not match the evidence is not “putting the slightest thought into what you say”, but calling people “tools” is. Got it.
John Wilburn, why can’t you just tell the flipping truth? You are going onto properties in or going into foreclosure, for the purposes of making a profit on that transaction if you can. You are not just saying that mortgage companies or banks, routinely pay for “property inspections of properties where they hold the deed of trust“.
John Wilburn, the person who needs to be “muzzled” in those situations was/is you!
@Ron: “The approximate additional cost to install a microstamp firing pin is $12 per gun.”
Thanks for making my point for me. The approximate cost to install a replacement firing pin with no microstamp at all is about $5 per gun.
@Ron: “Microstamping will add an arrow to the quiver of law enforcement in solving crimes.”
Unless you install one with a different number that points to some innocent person. That would be pretty funny… and, like you said, about $12.
@Jason: “Even calling it a “tool” is being generous.”
I would assume that a “tool” would provide some kind of value. Seems this would most likely send police officers on some wild goose chase when they find a casing with a number.
The police, unlike visible serial numbers on guns, wouldn’t be able to tell via visual inspection that you have removed or replaced the microstamp. So, until you actually commit a crime with a gun, it’ll look completely legit to the naked eye.
@Newman: “He might ask you to compromise and put it in the car. Of course, we know you can’t do that!”
I guess he could ask… I would ask the officer to return his gun to his car, and if he is willing to do that, I’d return mine. Anyone want to bet on whether the officer is willing to risk his safety to make me happy???
“I’m wondering if the bank knows you carry a gun when you are conducting their business.”
John W — I think he was wondering if the bank you are doing business on behalf of knows you carry while doing such business. Not the banks you patronize.
“How Zimmerman of them.” LOL
I wonder what the fine & jail time might be for destroying a legally required piece of your firearm John? Is that you are worried about?
@129 John W.
They probably thought you were a cop.
@133. John W.
Do you really believe the bank is thriving because you convinced the manager to take down the “no guns” signs?
@Kristen: “If my job scared me that much, I’d get another one. Just sayin’.”
Being scared and being prepared are two very different things. If the weather is calling for rain, I’ll carry an umbrella. Not because I’m scared of the rain, but because I want to be prepared for the rain.
I have a spare tire in my car. Not because I’m scared I’m going to get a flat, but because I want to be prepared for a flat.
I keep some extra ammunition close by. Not because I’m scared of the Zombie Apocalypse… I’m actually really excited about it.
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/479713_10151845478830235_199615495_n.jpg
@140 Jack,
My point about compromising was completely missed. I am saying that to do what John Wilburn is doing, he may have to eventually compromise some or quit doing it. We have debated all day about a homeowner not allowing guns on their property. John has said he is consulting his lawyer on the very point I made today. Does his right as an agent of the bank to go onto the property trump the homeowners right to not allow guns on his property?
As usual, Sandi can’t answer the argument so she whines about a throw-away line that didn’t even specifically mention her.
John Wilburn-
“I open carry in all three of my banks.”
My bank is one of the five largest in the country. They allow concealed carry. I’ve always thought it humorous that these giant banks who probably have entire divisions dedicated to security see no point in putting up a sign. But what do they know?
Kristen:
“So you see garbage, hear dogs barking, and notice people are watching you (how Zimmerman of them) and assume that things are going to “go bad”.”
I know the bleeding heart liberal in you doesn’t want to recognize a bad neighborhood when you see one, but I choose to not be so naive.
Sandi:
“You are not just saying that mortgage companies or banks, routinely pay for “property inspections of properties where they hold the deed of trust“.”
That is 100% what I’m doing. They generally order inspections on properties when the payments get behind so that a midnight mover doesn’t leave their property to ruin. Also, they want to check up on non-owner occupied properties bought with owner-occupied loans under certain circumstanses. That is loan fraud and they have really cracked down on it in recent years. Not knowing what you’re talking about never even slows you down, does it?
139.”John Wilburn, the person who needs to be “muzzled” in those situations was/is you!”
When I never said anything? You’re so full of crap. Go back to Utopia!
Jack:
“John W — I think he [Newman] was wondering if the bank you are doing business on behalf of knows you carry while doing such business. Not the banks you patronize.”
Yes, they do. It came up in conversation as personal safety is always a topic with these things. I do a good job; that’s what’s important and all that should be.
Newman:
“Do you really believe the bank is thriving because you convinced the manager to take down the “no guns” signs?”
I think the bank is thriving because they’re a very good bank that makes good decisions and listens to their customers. Getting rid of the signs is example of such.
Newman:
“I am saying that to do what John Wilburn is doing, he may have to eventually compromise some or quit doing it.”
I doubt it.
“We have debated all day about a homeowner not allowing guns on their property. John has said he is consulting his lawyer on the very point I made today. Does his right as an agent of the bank to go onto the property trump the homeowners right to not allow guns on his property?”
Does a utility easment trump a homeowner’s right to plant trees under the power line? You bet it does. Do some home owners’ associations trump the homeowner’s right to hang a flag on the porch? You bet it does. Does a mineral rights reservation trump the homeowner’s right to put in a gas well? You bet it does. Do local building codes trump a homeowner’s right to build whatever he wants? You bet it does. Do restrictive covenants convey with the deed and trump a homeowner’s right to do all sorts of things with their property? You bet they do.
There are all kinds of encumberances upon a property that the owner has to live with. The agreement he or she made with the mortgage company is absolutely among them. Newman, YOU are placing such special concern on the gun.
Oh yeah Jason, your post #128 was a real exercise in “answer the argument” prose! WOW, are you totally tone deaf?
Kristen:
“If my job scared me that much, I’d get another one. Just sayin’.”
If your president keeps piling it on, we’ll all be getting another (second) job.
Ron:
142.”I wonder what the fine & jail time might be for destroying a legally required piece of your firearm John? Is that you are worried about?”
No, I’m worried about the disturbing trend of making crimes of things that are not crimes, like modifying your gun. A crime, by definition, should require action against someone else or their property.
I usually don’t weigh in on gun issues because of the rabid (mostly ignorant, on both sides, though most here on the blog seem to be reasonable) reactions it elicits. Dan wrote an article way back when I delivered the RoTi about concealed carry that wholly irritated me, but I understood his position. So here goes another diatribe:
Yes, guns are meant for killing. They are also an extremely effective deterrent. In WWII, when asked if he would invade the U.S. proper, the Japanese emperor said not a chance. His reasoning: “behind every blade of grass is a rifle”. There likely would’ve been more invasions we’d have had to deal with, as well.
Were it not for an armed populace, it’s also possible that there would be no Unites States. But for the civilian militias, the British would’ve likely put a whoopin’ on us and we’d still be having tea time. Argue those two points all you want, but please research them thoroughly first. They’re nearly impossible to deny.
I have had my CHP for over ten years and on occasion, carry my twin Kimbers in a harness under my jacket. I open carry my revolvers, though I must admit that I do it mostly for the compliments I get on their holsters and look. Still, I find most wants to carry are not needs. I enjoy the freedom to carry a gun, but I have never needed it, not even when I was working for a repo business (though I had many pulled on myself while doing that). Most who carry will never need to use their firearm in defense, self- or otherwise. Still, many owners treat a gun like a condom; they’d rather have one and not need it than need one and not have it.
In 2003, I was in Richmond when a man attempted to carjack me. He stuck a pistol in my face and promptly had his right biceps nearly severed from his body by my tactical knife (I’ve always recommended edged weapons training to anyone who feels they “need” a gun). The hammer of the Beretta he was carrying closed on the skin between my thumb and forefinger, preventing discharge (it would’ve gone through the passenger side without striking me, but still, a loose bullet could’ve harmed someone else). Of course, he let go of the gun and tried to run. The point is, if I had been carrying that day, he would likely be dead instead of serving 35 years, and I would have had to live with it, not him. He wanted my car, not my life, and could’ve lost his own in the process. I realized that day how close I came to taking the life of another human being.
That did not stop me from carrying, and will not stop me. I do it because I can. I enjoy that freedom granted to me by the Constitution. If the unlikely day comes when I’m carrying and I need to use my guns in defense of innocents, I will be ready. I have never gone out with a big-man swagger and attitude just because I’m carrying. As a matter of fact, I’m even more inconspicuous and meek when I do carry, because I’m potentially lethal.
Yes, there a lot of people suffering from “little-man syndrome” and only want a firearm to be a big man. These people are, of course, potentially dangerous. Yes, there are also many who just don’t possess the skills or intelligence to safely carry and use a firearm. They’re also potentially dangerous, though usually more to themselves than others.
There is no effective screening process to weed out all potentially dangerous firearms owners, and abolition of civilian firearms ownership just isn’t going to happen. We already have parts of the Constitution being raped, pillaged, subverted and ignored. Attempted repeal of the 2nd Amendment would likely result in civil skirmishes, if not all out war. Amending it would be problematic simply because we’d likely be denying some able-bodied, upstanding citizens their Constitutional right (and don’t say it wouldn’t happen because nearly every law the U.S. has passed ends up screwing over at least a few people who don’t deserve it).
Firearms are here to stay, whether you like it or not. Would you prefer we line up on the battlefield and hack each others’ limbs off, like before the invention of guns? Violent crimes and war will always exist, whether gunpowder does or not.
I will NEVER try to convince you that you have to have a gun; all I ask in return is that you don’t try to tell me that I can’t have one. If the day should come that a gun would save your life and I am there armed and you aren’t, I will do everything in my power to save you and neutralize the threat. I don’t want your thanks; I don’t want your condemnation. I merely want the opportunity, should the need arise, to protect my fellow human beings from undue harm.
Holy crap! Brevity does not know my name, apparently. See? This is why I don’t usually comment about this stuff.
You gun guys are doing a great job discouraging suzie from posting. She’s had to revert to trying to salvage Paterno’s reputation in an effort to divert attention. Keep up the good work.
J.M. White,
No, you usually don’t comment about guns, but you are sure to lose some fans here because of it. Unfortunately, some people have so much prejudice and contempt for anyone who carries a gun that they can’t put the bias away long enough to recognize any other virtue or common ground. I like the “twin Kimbers”. gdad nearly had a stroke over the idea that I have a backup gun. I second the idea that I hope I never need to use a gun to stop a threat on my life. Although, the carjacker better be thankful it was you and not me that day, as I would likely not have tried what you did and he would likely be dead now. Sorry, but I don’t know about trying something so risky as jamming HIS hammer when a shot is less dangerous for me. That said, I don’t condemn the way you handled it at all, just hope you don’t condemn the way I might if I’m in that position.
John Wilburn, the problem here is not me not knowing what I am talking about, I called and asked my bank, it is that you are not being honest about what you are doing. These are properties in distress, up for an occupier loan adjustment or under suspicion of fraud, they are not remotely just random, routine inspections for mortgage companies or banks on properties where they hold the deed of trust. You just want to paint a better picture of your role in kicking people when they are down. Go you.
WTF are you whining about now, YOU said “…until the police arrive so they can muzzle the homeowner in your post #123, then whine “When I never said anything?” I repeat, you are the one who needs to be muzzled and the one “full of crap”. Your carrying a gun just makes it worse.
Not being honest “never even slows you down, does it”?
Actually J.M.White, your post 151, length and all, is precisely why you SHOULD be posting in gun threads. Thank you sir for “getting it”. I am applauding you and sincerely appreciating the restraint you chose to exercise! I agree completely. Kudos!!
Ron #142,
It wouldn’t matter. It is invisible to the naked eye and wouldn’t be apparent before you have already committed a crime anyway.
Better than filing it off would be to temporarily replace it and the barrel if you were a criminal.
“your president”
Facepalm…
@147 John W.:”Newman, YOU are placing such special concern on the gun.”
So what? Isn’t this debate about guns? If I think you’re wrong, I’m going to say so.
No, Wilburn, it’s YOU who are placing such special concern on the gun.
I defend my position the same way you defend yours.
Sandi:
“You just want to paint a better picture of your role in kicking people when they are down. Go you.”
No, they aren’t random and I never said they were. They are usually people who are behind, but are also ordered for other reasons. Not nit-picking a report or forgiving mild hostility (like I did just yesterday)helps the occupants; I wish every one of them the best. Having worked for what I have and know how it feels to be broke with a lot of uncertainty, I can actually sympathize with these people in a way that armchair idealists that criticize me can’t. I’m not kicking anyone when they’re down; I’m earning a living. You are simply slanderous and spouting off on something you know NOTHING about. F you.
Newman:
“No, Wilburn, it’s YOU who are placing such special concern on the gun.”
No. All I did was mention part of my work activities and how they are an excellent example of “standing my ground in your yard” since it was suggested that such was not possible. I never even mentioned a gun in that post, nor would I if it hadn’t become such a feeding frenzy. I’m good with discussing things with you. You’re civil even when passionate.
John W: I’ve had extensive combat training, including IDF-based [Krav Maga] unarmed vs. armed combat. My grabbing the pistol that day was completely reflexive and more attributable to muscle memory than any conscious action. I wouldn’t condemn you at all because IF I had had any of my guns that day, this would be a story I’d never share with anyone. He’d have vacated his mortal coil in an instant. Instead, I showed him how proficient I am at fileting. <- That's kind of funny if have a dark sense of humor like me – just don't ask me to describe the extent of his wound; it's pretty sickening.
They say that time slows down in an adrenaline-fueled situation. I don't know who "they" are, but "they" are full of it. I barely had time to comprehend what happened before it was over. Here's my transcript and it'll take longer for you to read it than it took to transpire:
[Suspect approaches my car quickly from the left-rear, in view of the mirror]
[I pull my folding knife from my pocket and keep it, folded, beside my right thigh]
Suspect states, "Get out of the [expletive-deleted] car!"
[grab pistol]
[click] (pistol)
[click] (tact. knife)
[slash]
[lots of screaming and I'm suddenly in possession of a Beretta with filed-off serials]
(irrelevant note of his either gross incompetence or lack of deadly intent: the clip was full, but no round was chambered)
As far as the twin Kimbers are concerned, I carry a .32 S&W revolver in a paddle holster even when the K's are nestled under my arms. I wouldn't drive around without a spare for my car, just in case – same principle.
———————–
Sandi: Thank you for your kind words. I still have dreams about the events of that day, often in different scenarios. In the ones where I used a gun instead, I'll wake up drenched in sweat, simply because I know the gun he had wasn't chambered.
Prattle, prattle, prattle… okay, I have ten hours of work tomorrow, so I'll shut up now.
#154 I didn’t come even close to having a stroke over your backup gun, John W, I just think it’s hysterical, and in more ways than one.
“No, honey, I can’t leave yet, I don’t have enough guns. What if we get out there and my first gun malfunctions and then I drop my second gun and then the perp takes my third gun and then I can’t reach my fourth gun and then…”
The reality is, John W, that although I sometimes make fun or express some skepticism, I’m FAR from the most anti-gun person on this blog. Not even close.
“I second the idea that I hope I never need to use a gun to stop a threat on my life.”
I third the idea.
Newman: “So what? Isn’t this debate about guns?”
The debate is never about guns. The conversation always starts with Dan posting some sort of act of violence or something of that nature.
Guns do not commit acts of violence.
@J.M. White: “As far as the twin Kimbers are concerned, I carry a .32 S&W revolver in a paddle holster even when the K’s are nestled under my arms. I wouldn’t drive around without a spare for my car, just in case – same principle.”
THREE guns. Holy crap. Someone call an ambulance for gdad, I think he just had that stroke.
Send all the crudity you feel like throwing John Wilburn, this “armchair idealist” is not the one making money off of people on the downside pretending that I’m just doing “routine” work, or talking about them needing to be muzzled if they don’t want guns on their property.
I just survived an angry confrontation with two disgruntled men, one of whom was feeling shortchanged on his last paycheck, with no weapon except my wits and a female co-worker. Granted, they were way outmatched and apparently unarmed…Lots of loud talk and arm waving though. I perhaps would feel safer with three guns, a folding “pocket knife” capable of filleting an arm, AND Krav Maga but I just cannot see how that is not admitting that the bad guys have won. There are worse things than dying.
#165 See post #162.
#164 “The conversation always starts with Dan posting some sort of act of violence or something of that nature.”
Not true. John W (I think, but not going back to find it) just recently started a gun conversation in the middle of a non-gun thread.
Obama gives me gas. I was bored, I stopped in here.
Going to look at a Can Am in Greensboro
Sandi, you shouldn’t have short-changed those two guys!
I fail to see why guns remains such a constant argument on this blog. Gun owners keep your guns. It really isn’t too big a deal for the rest of us because the gun owners are so afraid of being mugged, bushwhacked, or raped that they can barely leave their house. The guns may make them feel safer when they go out, but for someone that afraid of the boogeyman, they won’t go very far off the beaten path anyway.
Those that have bought their courage in a bottle or pill will carry their guns anyway and like any drunk or stoner, you just have to avoid them on the street just like you do on the highway.
#164 Jack, back to your claim that the conversation always starts with Dan bringing up something violent. Try checking out post #4 in the thread about the restaurant spewing smoke. I’m having a little trouble reading the name in that completely and entirely unrelated post about guns, but it sure looks like John Wilburn hijacking that thread to me.
In either case, gdad, the conversations aren’t about guns. They are about people.
#174 Glad to see you realize that it’s NOT always Dan who starts these things.
“31.Sorry ’bout your luck will, but “most inept POTUS in modern history” is already taken.
Bush cannot be blamed for the deficit, increase in the debt or the failed policies accumulated over 8 long hard years of his watch, but Obama wrecked the world in less than one term”.
Wow – still blaming Bush. Seriously? Eventually even little boys and girls have to take responsibility for their actions Sandi.
“Hey will, just to jog your memory…back under the Bush years we called this “fighting the evildoers and spreading the joys of democracy”. It just wasn’t as successful”.
Kristen — o bother I don’t know why I even try —— It is not the fact that these actions are going on that needs to be investigated. It is whether or not top white house officials (as reported by the media)compromised our national security by leaking classified information about such operations in an attempt to build President Obama’s approval ratings. And whether or not the AG of the US is trying to protect such “top white house officials”.
I did not report the leaks nor did I make them up. They were reported by the AP, The New York Times and the Washington Post among others.
The fact that national security and the security of our operatives and allies have been compromised by these leaks is irrefutable.
Will declares that “Eventually even little boys and girls have to take responsibility for their actions Sandi.” Oh really? When will Bush/Cheney or the TP/GOP do so?
“the security of our operatives and allies have been compromised”
You mean like Valerie Plame? Nobody’s buying the latest right-wing tempest in a teabag, how about creating some jobs?
Sandi:
“this “armchair idealist” is not the one making money off of people on the downside pretending that I’m just doing “routine” work…”
Are you really too stupid to understand that the mortgage company is protecting its investment from people who are breaking their promise? The banks pay for the inspection. There is NO way to construe this as me “kicking anyone when they’re down” or “making money off of people on the downside”. The mortgage people are losing on them as it is, paying a little bit more for a third party to check on their investment is just good business since the trust is now lost with the mortgagor who should, but may not be caring for the property. You will defy gravity, invert the color spectrum, and travel through time if you must just to hate anything I say.
Having more class than you, I will not presumptively assume that you stole from the guy’s paycheck and try to tarnish your livelyhood like you have mine on three occasions now.
#172
@Richard J. Beeson, CPA-
Nice stuff. It’s Suzie-level trolling, but your writing is so much better.
John Wilburn, for the record, I am not at all “too stupid to understand that the mortgage company is protecting its investment from people who are breaking their promise“. But THAT is not how you presented what you are doing, now is it? You are making money off the down-slide of people in trouble. No shame in it, Willard Romney reported made $20K for every job he eliminated. But, like him, you chose to obfuscate. You pretended this was a routine mortgage holder activity when it is only routine for distressed or ignorant mortgagees who MIGHT have violated a contract.
If indeed there was “NO way to construe this as me “kicking anyone when they’re down” or “making money off of people on the downside” then why not tell the truth from the beginning declaration of the issue?
There is no need to attempt to “defy gravity, invert the color spectrum, and travel through time” to call out most of what you spew. You made your bed.
FYI, you do not show “more class” by typing the accusation you would not “presumptively assume”. You show class by not mentioning it. So even in that you failed.
The “tarnish your livelyhood” is all yours bucko. You like to sling it, but you can’t take it. In a sane mind, that might mean you need to reconsider slinging it in the first place.
Always here to help.
http://www.nationalmemo.com/why-does-mitt-romney-like-firing-people-because-he-made-20000-on-every-laid-off-worker/
will, who exactly is supposed to be surprised by the revelations that we’re covertly fighting al qaeda? How does this “compromise security”….what exactly did anyone think? Of course we’re conducting covert operations in the middle east. I doubt there was ever a time in the last 30 years that we didn’t. I think no more or less of Obama than I did before this earth-shaking insight. It’s a non-issue.
180. Jaason – thanks, I can Suzie sucking wind at being compared to me now, can’t think of a better picture.
Re: Comment by Kristen — June 16, 2012 @ 4:14 pm
Abso-pea-piking-lutely!!!
You nailed it Kristen.
180. Jaason – thanks, I can Suzie sucking wind at being compared to me now, can’t think of a better picture.
Richard,
The only thing we have in common is neither of us is working now. I’m not working by choice, as I’m retired. Not sure about you.
185.-Suzie – you are correct, there is not one thing we have in common, thankfully.