They were packing pistols at the VCDL picnic in Green Hill Park
Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, address the crowd Saturday at a VCDL picnic in Roanoke County's Green Hill Park. | Shot by Dan
More than 100 folks turned out for the Virginia Citizen’s Defense League picnic Saturday afternoon and evening in Green Hill park, including yours truly and Zach.
The intermittent downpour started almost as soon as folks gathered — fortunately they had arranged a shelter (although the volunteers who cooked got soaked in the rain).
There was no shortage of welcoming and friendly folks there, almost all of them carrying .45-caliber, .40-caliber and .357-caliber (and other sized) pistols.
VCDL President Philip Van Cleave (his photo is on the left) made the trip from Chesterfield, and Al Steed Jr., a VCDL board member who lives in Bedford, was there too.
The best part was getting to meet regulars on this blog, such as Dave Hicks and John Wilburn and the regular who goes by “Jack” (photos of all of us are below). VT Hokie, her husband and daughter were also there. She seemed surprised to see me.
They’re all nice and intelligent folks and it was fun breaking bread with them. They even introduced me, and gave a round of applause.
The purpose of the picnic was to demonstrate that carrying guns Roanoke County parks is legal, in spite of a clumsily worded law that might lead many people to believe otherwise. The law bans firearms “as expressly prohibited by law” but because there’s no law that expressly prohibits them (for most people), they’re not actually banned. Or something like that.
(In fact, a state law the VCDL worked to enact prohibits localities from banning firearms on most public property, with a few exceptions such as in courthouses).
It was Jack who noted this: What if the law banned black people from parks, “as expressly prohibited by law” but there was no law expressly prohibiting blacks? Do you think that would confuse people, and get some of them upset?
Those weren’t the exact words, but it’s the gist of the point. The laws are complicated and it’s not unusual for even cops to be confused by them.
Here’s the pic of me with Dave Hicks and John Wilburn.
Dave Hicks (left) with yours truly and John Wilburn
Here’s a question that budding provocateur Zach put to Dave Hicks, just before we left:
“Don’t you think the world would be a better place without guns?”
Dave hardly batted an eyelash and came back with something like: “Not if they had skipped inventing guns and had invented nuclear weapons first.”
Thanks for the fun time, guys!
VCDL Executive Member Ed Levine (left) with yours truly and VCDL President Philip Van Cleave | Photo froim VCDL Executive Member Ed Levine.
July 15, 2012 - 11:56 AM
Great hat, DaveH!
Dan… that is Ed Levine on the left in the second picture. I’m standing next to you in this picture: http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/255227_414837415233014_781913823_n.jpg
Excellent write-up, Dan, and I’m glad you had a good time. By the way, I was the one who compared it to a law prohibiting folks of color from coming to the park.
Was awesome to meet you.
Thanks for the corrections, Jack. I’ve updated the post so it’s correct. (Next time, I’ll bring my notebook).
Well done, Dan.
BTW, the “round of applause” for Dan was for the great job he has done on a number of issues where he took on the goverment and others for various injustices (think the workman’s comp fiasco, various billing / collection abuses, etc.)
Now if we can just get him to get behind restoring 2A rights as well, we might honor him as an Honorary member of VCDL.
.
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Please ask your members/supporters to avoid vandalizing cars when promoting VCDL. I am supportive of VCDL’s gun rights advocacy, but I want to be the one to decide if a bright orange “No guns? No Funds!” sticker ends up on my car, particularly on a painted surface. While it’s difficult to control where they all get posted, you lost a potential member when that happened w/o my consent.
Comment by Kristen — July 15, 2012 @ 12:05 pm
Thanks.
One of my summer straws.
One of the many Rx that I on has a stay-out-of-the sun warning. Doc said wear a hat and use sunscreen religiously and I’d be OK. So, I’m seldom outside w/o a hat.
Looks like it was a fun event, wish I could have been there…but work beckoned.
Re: Comment by Disgruntled Car Owner — July 15, 2012 @ 1:35 pm
Very sorry to hear that.
That is not something we approve of. We, absolutely, disapprove of it, in fact. When we leave a site, we work at being sure any place we hold a picnic is as clean, or cleaner, than it was when we get there. FWIIW, I was on the crew that did a sweep of the place to pick up after this picnic.
Dan, great write-up! Pleasure to meet you. Hope to see you at future events. The better both sides get to know each other, the easier it is to coexist.
Disgruntled Car Owner, I am DISGUSTED to hear about your experience. Those stickers belong on SHIRT LAPELS, N-O-T paint jobs. We have magnetic stickers for that, for those who care to advertise their position. You have my apologies for the violation of your personal property. Whoever it was should have know better. I hope that you will give us another try, and that you have a better experience in the future
#5 “Now if we can just get him to get behind restoring 2A rights as well…”
Like it or not, Dave H, your average joe looks at the hundreds of millions of guns in the U.S. and the fact that it’s really quite easy to get one most anywhere, and that average joe sees a country where 2A rights are rampant. There’s nothing to “restore” because they haven’t been “taken away.”
Nice meeting you Dan. I appreciate your work and enjoy reading your posts.
Ed Levine
Disgruntled Car Owner,
I’m sorry to hear that happened. I take it that happened at a campus carry event? A lot of stickers were put in the hands of passers by at those events. No VCDL members I know would do that. VCDL is a respectable and respectful organization that I’m proud to be a part of. Hope you’ll get to know us better.
Dan, glad you had a good time. The picnic gave me a chance to catch up with friends I don’t see very often. Hope we, and other bloggers, can get together again soon!
Nice write-up, BTW.
Gotta be honest…the rain made me lazy and I ended up not showing. Sorry!
Miriam – you can have a rain check. Maybe a few of us can get together some other time. We don’t have to wait for a VCDL even to get to know each other personally.
Dan, nice write-up.
@Jack – Agreed. (And thanks to John Wilburn for kindly sending me a reminder about the picnic too.) I do think we should just pick a date/location and have a gathering. We’ve discussed it on and off but just haven’t done anything concrete about it.
It was great seeing you at the picnic…and I WAS surprised, but it was a pleasant surprise
My husband enjoyed meeting you, and it was fun chatting with Zach…he’s a pretty cool kid.
VT Hokie… I’m sorry I didn’t run into you.
Jack, me too, but since you identified yourself in the photo in post #2, I know who to look for next time
Dan – thank you so much for attending and your candid observations. The picnic was a great demonstration of how people feel about such misleading laws.
Disgruntled Car Owner – I am shocked and dismayed. Also much confused – you see I’m the member that brought the stickers seen at the picnic and they were all “Guns Save Lives”. There was not one “No Guns, No Funds” sticker in my bag. Hope to meet you one day and further set the record straight.
I certainly enjoyed our conversation, Dan. I was pleased that you and Zach could make it!
And it was OK for you to not bring your notebook. Our invitation was for social purposes, not to make you work on the weekend
My impression was that Disgruntled Car Owner’s vehicle was not stickered at the picnic, but at some other gun-related event.
Dan glad to have met you at the event. good to have met your son too, fun watching him and Dave interact
i think it is interesting that you are having a hard time figuring out the laws too
to Disgruntled Car Owner, i can assure you that no one in the VCDL would have stuck one of those stickers on your car. could it be that a person that is anti did it to make someone mad? it was a sticker that we gave out at the collage protests
15.”Gotta be honest…the rain made me lazy and I ended up not showing. Sorry!”
I gotta be honest too. I was hoping to meet Miriam. Jack is right, we can do something whenever. Just let me know.
Nice that scores of armed citizens can gather and no crimes are committed, no shootouts, no thievery, no rapes, no drugs, no confrontation with police or any violence; hopefully this helps to dispel the myth that folks with guns ruin our society.
As a bonus the place was left in better shape than it was before their arrival.
Maybe there is a lesson here for future gatherings of the 99 percenters.
“Maybe there is a lesson here for future gatherings of the 99 percenters.”
What do you think this was? A Bain shareholder meeting?
#27 Guess what, mike O, the Roanoke Occupiers have gathered numerous times WITHOUT guns and there have been no assaults, shootouts, rapes, thievery, confrontations with police or violence. And they’ve generally left the park in better shape than when they arrived.
Re: Comment by Dan Casey — July 16, 2012 @ 1:38 pm
Dan,
If that is the case, there is a high likelihood that is was not a VCDL member that did it. Those “No Funds” stickers were handed out at college protest. Thousands were given away to students, faculty, staff and other passersbys. Most wore then, put the on book, laptops, etc. A few threw them away.
I hope that:
1) If Disgruntled Car Owner is/was sympathetic to restoring the 2A rights, that he will not be put off by the childish actions of someone who could very well have not been sympathetic to restoring the 2A rights that we support, and was very unlikely to be an actual member.
2) I hope he will attend one of our future events and meet (as you did ) the “welcoming and friendly folks… nice and intelligent folks.”
I did an Interview with Phil from VCDL about two weeks ago, thought you might like to share it. He does a great job of covering the issues.
http://youtu.be/Ry_vNHxSKKA
Yeah, those Occupy camps were known ’round the country for their lawfulness and cleanliness.
#32 Read my post more carefully, Chuck. I was speaking of the local group. Do you have some sort of evidence that the local group has done anything wrong? Can you refute anything I said about them (HINT: Don’t use any of terps’ earlier comments about them; those were all lies).
If not, quit embarrassing yourself.
Are Sandi, Kristen, 13 Suns, etc. still interested in a gathering too? If so, why don’t we just plan for one night next week after work…? I’d prefer Salem or the Salem-ish side of Roanoke. (Warren? OJ? Dan?) Everyone? Let’s do this!
Yeah, gun owners are known around the country for their shootings, accidents and issues too. Bad apples spoil every bunch, but you think no one should hold you accountable for “yours”. Return the favor sometime and people might actually consider it. If you don’t like blankets, don’t toss them!
Here is the definitive answer to if the world would be a better place without guns…
http://old.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel120501.shtml
Here’s a quick excerpt from the longer essay…
To say that life in the pre-gunpowder world was violent would be an understatement. Land travel, especially over long distances, was fraught with danger from murderers, robbers, and other criminals. Most women couldn’t protect themselves from rape, except by granting unlimited sexual access to one male in exchange for protection from other males.
Back then, weapons depended on muscle power. Advances in weaponry primarily magnified the effect of muscle power. The stronger one is, the better one’s prospects for fighting up close with an edged weapon like a sword or a knife, or at a distance with a bow or a javelin (both of which require strong arms). The superb ability of such “old-fashioned” edged weapons to inflict carnage on innocents was graphically demonstrated by the stabbing deaths of eight second graders on June 8, 2001, by former school clerk Mamoru Takuma in gun-free Osaka, Japan.
When it comes to muscle power, young men usually win over women, children, and the elderly. It was warriors who dominated society in gun-free feudal Europe, and a weak man usually had to resign himself to settle on a life of toil and obedience in exchange for a place within the castle walls when evil was afoot.
jack burton, I’d say that most of the violence enacted today against the poor, weak, and female is economic.
No wonder they are all scared and carrying guns. They are fat and out of shape
Slap, ouch. Sorry, couldn’t resist.
I’m on vacation next week, Miriam, and on a business trip to New Jersey the week after that. How about we plan for some time in August… that much advance notice would probably make it easier for everyone.
Wow, Ernie.. that’s pretty low, even for the antis.
Congrats, Jack…you’re headed for God’s country!
(And hopefully your vacation will be nice too)
@39 Have a great vacation Jack. Yep, let’s just look at August.
Hey Jack, relax, it was a bad joke. I was going to do something with the stand your ground thing but figured I’d let that one go.
Sounds good. I will be back from my trip the weekend of August 3, so sometime after that would be great. I’d love to meet a bunch of you.
I’d be up for it, whenever it would be. I’ve got a lot of additional work going on through the end of the month, and my Monday evenings are tied up with a golf league through the summer, but I’d try to be there! I concur with August though, chances are I’d be better able to make it then…and coming from the NRV, Salem-ish would be far more convenient for me, but I don’t mind driving to Roanoke either. I just hate that I’ve been unable to keep the first Tuesdays free to make it to Flannary’s as often as I’d like.
Do Tuesday nights work for folks? How about something like August 14th? I also was thinking Salem would be good. I’m in Northwest Roanoke, but I know people like John Wilburn would be driving from NRV and OJ and probably others, too, so that would be a nice middle ground.
I know some of you wouldn’t be okay with sharing email addresses, so I’m trying to figure out a good way to set it up so we can keep track of who is coming.
I’m voting for the weekend as I am out of town during the week. I think a get together is a great idea.
How about Sunday Aug. 19 at Loch Haven (that’ll cost ya’ll $5/head).
Dave H. looks about like I imagined. John W is a young dude. That surprises me. It may explain why you can insult him and it rolls off his back. Same with Scott. Same with OJ, although we’ve been in a lot of agreement lately. Older folks take this stuff too seriously. Dan’s probably the only lefty over 50 in here who doesn’t hold a grudge except for that rough patch from the first of the year through about May when he was deleting everything.
That Sunday the 19th is looking pretty good for me. Like Other John, I have no problem going to Roanoke, but Salem is a shorter drive. Having the time free with my unpredictable schedule is the obstacle.
Suzie:
“John W is a young dude.”
I’m likely between you and your avatar in age.
19th works for me.
I wish I could have been there. Not sure when I’ll get back to Virginia for a visit. The gun laws in Florida are comparable to Virginia other than you can’t open carry. Got to keep it concealed at all times.
Bug/Tom
Welcome back!
“The gun laws in Florida are comparable to Virginia other than you can’t open carry. Got to keep it concealed at all times.”
If you’re on your way to or from hunting, camping or fishing you can open carry in Florida. So, with a little preparation, you could open carry just about any time you want.
Dan, the 19th is fine for me as well. Can we drink at Loch Haven? If not, or if the weather is bad, we should have a back-up location in Salem like Mac & Bobs or some silly thingy like that. What if those of us who want to gather, email Dan? If Dan doesn’t want to fool with it, I’m happy to keep a list and coordinate: themiriam@comcast.net
“56.Dan, the 19th is fine for me as well. Can we drink at Loch Haven?”
Not sure if I’ll be there, but I do like Miriam’s priorities.
$55 So, what, you’re headed to a wedding or work and you throw a sleeping bag or fishing pole in the back and claim you were on your way to fish or camp? Sounds a lot like your rationalization for carrying in VV.
Drinking is permitted at Loch Haven, BYOB.
Would August 26 work better for folks?
Either the 19th or 26th would work for me, well, at least based on what I know now. We’re still waiting to find out when a friend of ours has a 4-day leave from the Army, which is supposed to be in August, and we’re planning to be back down in Georgia for that since it looke like he ships off to Afghanistan in October.
Either date is fine with me.
As far as a I can tell at this point, either Aug. 19 or 26 would work.
As of now, either the 19th or 26th work for me.
As the self-appointed social coordinator, it appears that the 19th will work. We will plan for Loch Haven (time to be determined a bit closer) but will stay in the Salem area (in the event of rain) to accommodate the NRV folks. I’ve gotten some emails and created a distribution list so that, among other things, we can communicate here and quickly by email in case it rains or is just too darn hot to meet at LH; or for any reason folks would rather meet in AC near beer on tap. Shoot me emails at themiriam@comcast.net – the gonzo list grows. Want to hear from the women here. Just saying.
Either date is good for me as well.
#64 “Want to hear from the women here.”
Well, you can forget about suzie or pammalala. And we’re not sure which gender category Big Momma falls into.
Hey, Dan, you may have addressed this before, but does LH allow guns, either open or concealed? Just curious for the gun carrying folk.
And if you are a gun carrier, what the heck do you do when you go swimming? Are there waterproof guns? If not, do you lock it up somewhere so that somebody else won’t pick it up? Do you then leave yourself unprotected from random gun-wielding crazies? Or do you just not swim because of the potential danger of being unarmed? I’ve never been worried enough to carry a gun, so I’ve truly never thought about these things.
Either date works for me as well.
gdad:
“And if you are a gun carrier, what the heck do you do when you go swimming? Are there waterproof guns?”
4.5 ounce stainless revolver on a neckchain or drawstring. A revolver will fire underwater.
gdad:
“I’ve never been worried enough to carry a gun, so I’ve truly never thought about these things.”
My friends Ban, Billy, and Larry have never been worried enough to wear a seatbelt. They may have plenty of time to think about it in hindsight laying on an operating table one day.
@gdad: “And if you are a gun carrier, what the heck do you do when you go swimming? Are there waterproof guns? If not, do you lock it up somewhere so that somebody else won’t pick it up?”
I usually leave my gun somewhere safe when I swim. The guns I have (as are most) are waterproof, though, yes.
Not the best thing for the finish, but they will function in the water. A semi-automatic may not cycle properly when fired under water, but the bullet won’t go more than a few feet anyway. The most important thing is to not use hollow points if you’re going to shoot in the water… at least not if there is the potential for water to be in the barrel.
“4.5 ounce stainless revolver on a neckchain or drawstring. A revolver will fire underwater.” Comment by John Wilburn
That’s good to know, in case I run up on a shark or something when I’m swimming (humor)
Alfred E.:
“That’s good to know, in case I run up on a shark or something when I’m swimming (humor)”
That’s good to know, in case I run up on a shark or something when I’m swimming (serious)
That would be interesting, fending off a shark with one – NAA .22 revolver. Actually, I have heard of an alligator being killed with one. It’d be good to have for an attacking dog too. The shorter barrel would be good with snake shot as well. The mini revolver is a neat back up/deep concealment piece if you practice with it to stay proficient.
By the way, Alfred E., are you going to try to make the bloggers’ get together next month? I’d like to meet you.
I’ve seen them use bang sticks on alligators on the Discovery Channel before. They were chambered in .22… at least the ones I saw.