Thursday’s column: The atheists are laughing, all the way to the bank
Generic board meeting | Aeryn | Wikimedia Commons
Somewhere in an office building in Madison, Wis., the directors of the Freedom From Religion Foundation hold strategy meetings.
Let’s imagine some of the discussions they’ve been having in the last few years about religion and public life in Southwest Virginia.
“Next we’ll hear from the atheist in charge of the Blue Ridge mountains area. Lucifer — er, I meant Luke — can you give us a status report?
“Happy to, madam chairwoman,” says Luke.
“As you know, we’ve been in a fierce court battle with the Giles County School Board over the hanging of the Ten Commandments in their high school. That’s been going on for about 18 months now.
“First the local churches got everyone riled up to keep the commandments. So we sued, and the board tried to ‘out’ the unnamed student plaintiff in the case. But a federal judge ruled the student could remain anonymous , so he wouldn’t get or teased or beat up or have his house egged.
“Things kind of came to a crux earlier this year over the board’s insistence that the commandments were an educational tool key to understanding the historical development of our nation’s laws, rather than the promotion of religion.
“The judge responded with the wisdom of Solomon. He suggested the board remove the four commandments that mentioned God. But the board more or less admitted their ‘history’ argument was a crock when they yanked down all 10, rather than just those four. So the case is settled.
There was a brief round of applause.
READ THE REST OF THIS COLUMN HERE.
July 26, 2012 - 6:00 AM
Folks have the right to laugh all they want but there is coming a day of reckoning but not on this earth. It would be wise to be in the right camp when you meet your Maker.
I’m not sure if Dan is being sarcastic or just wants to see how riled up he can get the god lovers. Most atheists don’t “attack” Christianity in public because they want to profit. In fact, there isn’t much profit to be had by outing yourself as an atheist and having to suffer the wrath (and worse, the repeated attempts at conversion) of the bigoted, small-minded, god fearing people of southwest Virginia. I can’t tell you the number of times that I’ve told someone I’m an Atheist and they’ve immediately tried to convert me by berating me. Really? Tell me again how I’m going to hell and that’s supposed to make me want to come to your side of the religious coin! Hell sounds super nice! If only I don’t screw up too many times I’ll be able to go to heaven. Too bad I’m human and make mistakes regularly. Science has disproved most of the “miracles” of the bible. Even the bible contradicts itself! Maybe Christians should read a text book and not push the bible (which I’ve read cover to cover, thank you) on those of us who know better. Oh, and PS – I work at a church so I KNOW there exist tolerant, lovely Christians out there who aren’t hell bent on conversion, but even then, I have to listen to things like “God Bless” or, my personal favorite, “Have a Blessed Day!” So profit? More like pain!
**facepalm**
I see that faceplam, and raise to a **double facepalm**
I doubt that the Freedom From Religion Foundation is rolling in dough. Challenging an overwhelming majority that is passionate and in control of all levels of the American political and social system is rarely good business. Christians dominate American culture and society, yet somehow still manage to consider themselves persecuted. One would think that people as successful and educated as the members of the County Board could rise above such phantom victimization.
A little perspective on the term atheist – in ancient times the word
atheists meant the person was either an Epicurean who denied the gods’ providence, but not their existence, or Jews and Christians who
worshiped one god, their own, while denying everyone else’s.
In antiquity, the term pagan [pagani] was given by the Christians to
those not enlisted through baptism as “soldiers” of Christ battling the powers of Satan.
So times have changed as to the definition of atheists – once defined as the Christians.
[Info from "Pagans and Christians", Robin Land Fox]
It sounds like the Freedom From Religion Foundation has found there is a lot of money in Hate.
Gee, it sounds like Christian communities could save a lot of money by simply following the constitution. My friends at the FFRF don’t go looking for these cases; the cases come to them, brought by locals. Some are settled before they even make the news.
Henry,
Requesting compliance with the Constitution is not Hate (at least not the Constitution I support). Nor does a civil disagreement with one’s political or religious views constitute Hate. I think this country would be much better off if more people understood the difference.
@1 Well, I don’t know about your maker John Calvin, but my maker has a sense of humor (just look at the platypus). Furthermore, my maker doesn’t get hung up over silly stuff like this.
#7 We’ll wait for your examples of hate in all this, Henry. The ones who are trying to make localities follow the Constitution are usually the ones who get death threats and expletives deleted, but, hey, if you can show us the hate from this organization, please do.
I predict all we’ll get from you in response is crickets, though.
Dan loves poking the nest with a stick…..
The Giles county dust up is a constitutional issue, not an atheist issue. It protects all religions, not the banning of them.
Is the ACLU affiliated with The Freedom From Religion Foundation?
First, let me say I’m not an atheiest. Second, I have no objection to public agency boards pausing before meetings. During that pause board members should reflect on the purpose of the board on which they serve and recommit themselves to staying focused solely on that purpose. Boards would function more effectively & get more done should they choose to stay thus focused.
Finally, #1, we are all God’s children whether we are Christian, Muslim, Buddist, Hindu,wickan, or atheist & we will meet our maker one day. When that happens our creator will say, “I’ve been expecting you my child.”
Henry, I don’t see FFRF as the ones who are hating. Those forcing the worship of a spiteful, vengeful god (as taken from the bible) are the ones pushing hate – hate and intolerance of those not like them. You want your freedom to practice your religion the way you desire, and I want MY freedom FROM your religion!
Cuttlefish
You mean where the Constitution guarantees the right to worship as we please and the right to free speech or do you mean the imaginary right to not be offended by someone else’s beliefs?
imagine a meeting in a newspaper editor’s office in downtown Roanoke, whereby the editor tells the paper’s opinion journalist, “dan, you are not pissing off enough of our newspaper’s detractors. I want them ALL to be pissed off, and some doubly so”! “you were hired to stir the pot, so get stirring”, she said. dan eagerly replied, “yes mam”!
“You want your freedom to practice your religion the way you desire, and I want MY freedom FROM your religion!”
Religious folks want to be able to practice their religion anywhere at anytime, just like you want your freedom from religion anywhere at anytime. There’s an overlap.
Why should those who want a freedom from religion expect that their wants are more important in the overlap?
Why should those who want to freely practing their religion their way anywhere at anytime expect their wants to be more important in the overlap?
Could it be that real tolerance means that we’re all gonna have to deal with sometimes be exposed to religious practices, or lack of religious practices, that we don’t agree with?
Henry – I’m not offended by your beliefs. If you want to believe in some imaginary god to make yourself feel better, go ahead. Just don’t push him on me.
I’m a typo machine…
*…freely practice their…”
*…sometimes being exposed…”
No, it’s the constitutional preclusion from the agents of governmental bodies cramming their personal system of mythology down everyone else’s throats.
As for the money-making aspect, if there’s someone reading this piece that can’t tell it’s satire, they probably shouldn’t be allowed to comment.
“Could it be that real tolerance means that we’re all gonna have to deal with sometimes be exposed to religious practices, or lack of religious practices, that we don’t agree with?”
Not in a taxpayer funded building housing a governmental body going about the taxpayers’ business we won’t.
“Henry – I’m not offended by your beliefs. If you want to believe in some imaginary god to make yourself feel better, go ahead. Just don’t push him on me.”
Hate is slowly appearing.
” Just don’t push him on me”
Quit forcing your beliefs down my throat.
There is a Hindu temple in Roanoke County. Imagine the reaction of some to a request by them that the BOS open a meeting with one of their prayers:
“We worship the three-eyed One (Lord Siva) Who is fragrant and Who nourishes well all beings; may He liberate us from death for the sake of immortality even as the cucumber is severed from its bondage (to the creeper).”
Frankly, I think it would be kind of cool. And it would be fun to watch Butch Church as it’s uttered. But I bet it would be the last sectarian prayer every said aloud before a BOS meeting.
Uh, did Jesus ever say anything about public prayer?
As I said in another thread and as Sandi pointed out here, why can’t the meetings begin with a minute of SILENCE during which everyone there can pray, think, mull or whatever? You want to know why? Because this is not about giving Christians a moment to pray before a meeting inside their heads. It is about making prayer an open and intregal part of the meeting. And not just “prayer” but Christian prayer.
I’d be very curious to see what objection the stupid group could come up with to the “minute of silence” compromise. If it wasn’t acceptable, they would have to admit to what the real issue here is and what it is that they truly want.
Amen Kristen @21. It is such an obvious issue. And the compromise is also an obvious one. But there is no interest in compromise, I suspect.
That Girl “Hell sounds super nice!” REALLY
Jesus says more about hell than any other biblical figure. His warnings of the eschatological judgment are liberally colored with the imagery of hell ( Matt 5:22 ; 7:19 ; 8:12 ; par. Luke 13:28-30 ; Matthew 10:15 Matthew 10:28 ; Matthew 11:22 Matthew 11:24 ; 18:8-9 ; par. Mark 9:43-49 ; Luke 17:26-29 ; John 15:6 ). He portrays this future judgment through pictures of Sodom’s destruction ( Luke 17:29-30 ): fire, burning sulfur, and a fiery furnace ( Gen 19:24-25 ). These images of God’s judgment were well established in the Old Testament and intertestamental literature. Important portrayals of hell are also present in Jesus’ parables, including the tares ( Matt 13:40-42 ), the net ( Matt 13:50 ); the great supper ( Matt 22:13 ), the good servant and the wicked servant ( Matt 24:51 ; par. Luke 12:46-47 ), the talents ( Matt 25:30 ), and the last judgment ( Matt 25:46 ). Here “weeping and gnashing of teeth” ( Matt 13:50 ; 24:51 ; 25:30 ) and “darkness” ( Matt 22:13 ; 25:30 ) are key descriptive phrases.
“Oh, and PS – I work at a church so I KNOW there exist tolerant, lovely Christians out there who aren’t hell bent on conversion, but even then, I have to listen to things like “God Bless” or, my personal favorite, “Have a Blessed Day!” So profit? More like pain!”
Epitamy of hypocrisy. If you are an atheist why are you working at a church? Have you told your employer how you feel? I hope you do not work with the children. There are so many demons attached to you the prayer cover must be awfully week there or else you would feel very uncomfortable walking through the door.
I pray you will find the truth before you step into eternity without God.
But will, what did Jesus say about public prayer? Anything?
Matthew 6:5-6?
hokie24, you put you finger right on the nub of the issue. the rub lies in the overlap, and as long as the “shouters” and “finger pointers” on both sides continue to decide to shout and finger point, opinion writers of all sorts will be obliged to stir the pot.
Yes, Dan…he did!
Matthew 6:5-6: “And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men….when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret.”
In other words, shut up, go home, and do your praying in private.
Maybe someone should go to the BOS meetings holding up a sign with Matthew 6:5-6 on it, like the John guy at football games.
“There are so many demons attached to you the prayer cover must be awfully week there or else you would feel very uncomfortable walking through the door.”
Yes will…this is definitely the sort of sentence educated open-minded people are going to take seriously. Seriously? “Partly cloudy, with prayer cover lasting most of the morning, until being burned off by eternal hellfire around lunchtime leading to a nice sunny afternoon”.
Look guys and gals. I see that we have a freedom of religion that prevents the federal government from establishing a religion to which we all must belong. The state of VA has basically incorporated that into the state constitution. What we do not have is freedom FROM religion. Maybe I am simple unobservant or insensitive, but if I walk into a government building and see a religious document of whatever type or variety, I do not feel compelled to join that particular religious variation. Really, no one should feel a compulsion at the sight of a religious document hanging on a wall. I can’t honestly think that any atheist feels this compulsion at the sight of a document hanging on a wall. That is what you are arguing when you object to a display. You are saying that your will and sense of self is so weak that it cannot withstand the sight of a religious document hanging on a wall in a school, courthouse, wherever.
What you are really doing is denying religious freedom to those that have to exist in government buildings. If the Ten Commandments is hanging there, and you are a Muslim, ask for some Muslim document equivalent to be posted near by. If you are an atheist, either do not read it or request that an atheist code of morality be posted.
Now the truth is that it is government that can’t harass you religiously by an imposition of a religion to which you must belong. If you are going to argue that a Satanist at a school may not feel comfortable asking that his moral document be posted on the wall, you would be right. However, that uncomfort is not from government. That discomfort is the disapproval of his peers. There is NO right that you have that says that you can’t be ostracized or censured by your peers for your beliefs.
I believe that the real reason that this fight occurs is that because in this country,the majority of people are christians. Non Christians do not want to feel that peer pressure and discomfort – even though it comes from their peers. So by eliminating public religious displays, the atheist thinks that they eliminate the disapproval of their religious choice or lack thereof.
What is actually happening is that as the militant atheist screams for government to do away with that that makes him uncomfortable, it fires up resentment against the atheist community. They increase the disapproval that they seek to eliminate. This is unfortunate. I have no issues with atheists. Most are decent people. What these few are doing is not fighting for their rights. Their freedom of religion has never been denied. They wish to impose a freedom from religion which means denying the rest of us freedom of religion while in a school or courthouse etc. We do not check any part of us at a door. What is being done is a few militant atheists are imposing their beliefs on the rest using the courts and twisting the first amendment into saying something which it never said.
Though I am delighted to see the FFRF force Christians to honor our Constitution and First Amendment by keeping church and state separate, for the protection of us all, I must say that the FFRF, when you get to know them, is generally run by the hateful, militant kind of atheist. And they are dishonest, too.
The following is an email I sent them (there have been several). The best thing about my one year membership in that group was the day it expired.
_________________________________________________
Far From Real Freedom
To: Freedom From Religion Foundation
From: Dave Gresham (emailed 6/2011)
Has the FFRF that once advertised inclusion of deists, free thinkers and independents evolved into atheists and agnostics only?
I have been told the majority of members were always atheists or agnostics. But is the percentage higher than it might be because almost every opinion in your paper reflects only one or the other? Maybe independents like me leave when they never hear opinions similar to their own? It is one thing to be a minority, but I feel like an orphan.
Wouldn’t a larger and more diverse group of members promoting freedom from religion be more helpful in achieving your stated objectives? True religion is entirely individual and independent anyway, representing the innermost essence of our beliefs. No one has ever believed everything someone else does, and no one ever will. So the FFRF needs to allow a wider variety of opinions in its publications, even things you do not agree with. In short, print letters from deists, free thinkers and independents, not just atheists and agnostics, your core membership.
For example, the FFRF appears only to believe that there is no life after death, or that such a thing cannot be known. This means millions of potential independent members who believe in life after death are repelled by an organization where nobody seems sure of an afterlife that they (potential members) accept as a fact. Indeed, the emphasis seems to lean the other way.
In addition, the FFRF often name-drops famous deists like Paine and Jefferson, yet never publishes their detailed views. Thomas Paine said this about his book Age of Reason, “the people of France were running headlong into atheism, and I had the work translated and published in their own language to stop them…” In short, it is unfair to cherry pick quotes for your benefit, but never voice anything that might foster deism. (Note I am not a deist. In my opinion we have progenitors, not creators, but this is not the place to digress further.) The point is about integrity and the lack of less popular viewpoints.
All of that having been said, perhaps you will allow me to share some of my beliefs on the certainty of life after death? If so, here are few…
The reason we cannot understand the next life is the same principle as if a baby in the womb tried to understand its parent’s existence. Or imagine if an acorn tried to describe what being an oak tree is like. The caterpillar knows nothing compared to the butterfly, yet it sleeps in confidence of a glorious awakening. And we can do the same. An unborn bird somehow knows to break thru its shell to a much greater life. Even though what awaits is unknown, it presses forward with confidence. These examples, and endless others, show us that life can progress from one age to the next. We don’t understand it, but when our body dies our spirit goes on somehow.
The progression from one world to the next can also be seen by examining ourselves. First, one physical seed (sperm) and one physical seed (egg) united in the womb to conceive us. We grew in the womb and eventually emerged to a life on earth. But when we were born, our placenta, which had received everything first, was discarded. Just like the placenta that preceded us, our physical body receives all things first. But the spiritual seed of love joins with our physical body and conceives a spiritual life for us, here in the womb of this earthly life. When we die here it is simply our emergence as a spiritual birth into a new world, while our body here will be discarded as obsolete, just as our placenta was.
Having subjected myself to be ruled by love above all other things, an idea that carries its own authority, I have no doubt my life will go on somehow when this life ends. But I have yet to talk to anyone in the FFRF, or read anything in the magazine that mirrors my total confidence. Am I alone here?
Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts and encourage others who may see the same things I do. True religion is ultimately the most personal thing for each of us. This makes it critical for the FFRF to respect minority opinions and keep them from being unwelcome, or even silenced, lest its influence be diminished.
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
Our battle is not against the Freedom from religion folks or the atheist, God bashers and Christian haters on this blog or anywhere else. It is against the prince of the power of the air and his demonic forces that are influencing these individuals. The enemies’ goal is not to get these folks to “worship” him or even acknowledge his existence. It is to deceive them into stepping into eternity without God and by doing so accompany him for all eternity in the lake of fire. Satan hates these people way more than they hate Christians and the things of God.
May we who are the body of Christ rise up, put on the full armor of God, And stand in the gap for these lost, deceived souls.
Eph 6:17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Dan- why do you care about what Jesus said about anything? You do not even believe in Him.
President Obama belives in prayer. Quote “”This, I think, is a day for prayer and reflection,” he said.
Where are te freedom from religion folks on this?
23
Dan brings up a very good point. Jesus prayed alone, away from everyone else, to be alone with God and to be able to commune with Him without distraction, to give himself entirely to God.
While I support freedom of speech, the more I consider this topic, the more I think it is a VERY bad thing to mingle Christianity and worldly government. From a Bible-believing perspective, I can’t think of anything from the current/modern government (on any level) that I would want to associate with Christ.
Do I think citizens should be allowed to pray on public property? Sure. We have the freedom of speech.
But, having a government official do it? Regardless of that person’s personal faith, they represent the GOVT., which is decidedly not in line with Christ in many, many ways.
In my view, this only distorts the Gospel and potentially angers the lost even further. That’s a BAD thing.
GOVT. (“current worldly wisdom”) and Christ are not equals, nor do they teach the same lessons, offer the same thing, etc.
While it is frustrating for Christians to see society sliding into depravity with the ever-increasing aid of govt., I think we need to realize that THIS is not our purpose. Why would we wish to preach the gospel from the man-made pedestal of worldly government of all things, think about it?
Jesus’ message of salvation through Him alone was not taught from a position of worldly power.
I think this is VERY important for believers to get. Including myself. It is the WORLD that tells us we need “power”.
The apostle Paul said in Romans 12:2 , “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.”
Excellent post David in Salem. +1
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Kristen – There are many “educated open-minded people” who will die today, face the judgement’ and spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Rev 20: 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21 : 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
For those who may be interested, and I hope Dan doesn’t mind me providing this link, but if you’re a non-believer or pretty much an apatheist (one who’s apathetic about religion), consider joining the Secular Humanists of Roanoke.
http://www.meetup.com/Roanoke-Area-Non-theists/
“Henry – I’m not offended by your beliefs. If you want to believe in some imaginary god to make yourself feel better, go ahead. Just don’t push him on me.”
It’s great that you’re not offended, but you made an attempt to offend Henry by calling his belief imaginary? Why would you do that, if all you want is tolerance from others to not push their beliefs on you?
Friends, another thought. One of our members is working on a public presentation titled, “What is Secular Humanism?”. Would anyone here be interested in attending the talk when he’s ready to give it?
If you want an introduction on-line, you can find one at the link below. Sorry, but the document is somewhat lengthy.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page=declaration
David in Salem, I think the problem is that just about every time a non-Christian religion requests to have their documents posted or an equal display of some kind, the same Christian groups that fight tooth and nail to get their own stuff displayed fight the display of other religious documents different from their own.
But I generally agree. If you’re going to permit one, permit them all. Allow the Ten Commandments to be displayed alongside the Five Pillars of Islam, the Wiccan Rede, etc. for everyone to read and digest. Doing so, you might just realize that we all have a lot more in common at the base level than you did previously.
But it can’t be selective/biased. It’s pretty much got to be an all-inclusive display for anyone wanting to display what their religion holds true, or none of it can be permitted within a public building for display.
As it is, religious documents, debates, and prayers are incredibly personal and belong more in houses of worship, people’s homes and their hearts…than in a government building.
Our Founding Fathers did not just happen upon the idea of a separation of church and state – they learned from experience that mixing government and religion, did not allow for freedom of everyone’s religion. A system of imposed religiosity was exactly what their forefathers lived under and fled to be “free” of the constraints of a government endorsed religion.
The suggestion, that some on this thread have made, that God is somehow banned from individuals’ lives because they enter a public school or government building is both logically and theologically ridiculous. I would suggest that if your beliefs are so tentative that they are unable to be sustained without glancing at the Ten Commandments upon entering these buildings, than it is your lack of faith, not the government’s that needs to be adjusted.
The First Amendment prohibits organized or COERCIVE prayer in public schools and government buildings – it protects the right of EVERY student or person to engage in PRIVATE personal prayer while in school, on campus or at BOS meetings. Bow your head and pray to any deity of your choosing, just don’t demand that I do too.
From Dan’s Column -
“A board member raises his hand. “Can the treasurer tell us how much money we raked in from this effort?”
“Sure,” the treasurer replies. “Let see. Here it is: $1,486,369. Most of it came from California.”
I’m sure Dan was trying to be “cheeky” with this column. Unfortunately this part probably has a lot of truth to it.
Follow the money. The love of it is the root of all evil. Maybe someone should call for an audit of the FFRF. As their website states “FFRF is a non-profit, educational organization. All dues and donations are deductible for income-tax purposes”.
Just sayin——
There is no more need for prayer at a governmental meeting than there is in discussing governmental issues at church. Religion belongs behind the church doors and not at meetings of government officials. If you want to pray, please do so before you attend the meeting.
will, do you know where the word ‘Hell’ was translated from originally in the New Testament? From ancient Greek mythology, from the name of a valley outside of Jerusalem, and from an ancient Hebrew word that means ‘grave’.
http://ecclesia.org/truth/hell.html
Obviously some of you have a serious problem separating the government and their duties, authority and power from your own. Which is interesting because some of the same people WANTING the imprimatur of the government on your religious sacraments, beliefs and displays, and the rest of us to shut up and take it, are the same ones whining about the government being in your business, in your gun holster, in your car, in your home and in your wallet. Odd the places you want them and the places you don’t.
Why you think this is serving God or meeting God’s purpose is totally beyond comprehension.
One day you are berating me for wanting the government to follow the teachings of Christ and offer justice, aid and respect to the poor, the next you are berating me for not wanting your denominational puppet show of prayer or displays at government meetings and schools. Why do you get to have it both ways?
Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
They should challenge our calender and time now. I am sure they are getting sick of B.C and A.D.
When one looks at the definition of “religion” it is defined mostly as a “set of belief systems”.
In the extreme’s some “religions” believe that our God has created a place for us to worship, flourish, and appreciate the gifts he has provided for us as we move towards our ultimate destiny; some believe we receive our ultimate destiny by killing those who disagree with us, while others believe in nothing at all.
Our oldest documents, our Declaration of Independence, and our constitution acknowledge that we have rights “endowed” by “our creator” and freedom “of” religion; however that freedom does not extend to one “religion” having a trump card over another and all should stay in due bounds of the sanctity of life and the tenants of human decency.
I have recently wondered, since we now know that citizens can be penalized for doing absolutely “nothing” (ie.. SCOTUS ACA) do those who’s religion is “nothing” have exposure when “nothing” is posted on a wall? Why should one’s religious “nothing” trump another’s religious “something”?
Strange indeed, but consider the evolution: decades ago when our economy was based on agriculture (would anyone have thought a government would outlaw smoking, or growing your own wheat?). More recently could anyone have guessed that a government would regulate “soda”?
We have now decided that doing “nothing” can be punished by government. Does it not follow that if doing “nothing” can be punished then doing “anything” can also be punished.
I will watch with much interest, when a suit is brought against a school “or other government entity” because of what they “do not” place on their walls.
sooo, should rahm emanual prevent chic-fila from opening restaurants in his fair city because of the company’s owner’s religious beliefs? before you offer a response, remember, rahm was/is obama’s biggest supporter…
well said, David in Salem. it’s often the few of a movement who screw things up, be they the worm in a barrel of apples, etc. however, they only have power through the acquiescence, or silence, of the many.
THAT girl:
“Tell me again how I’m going to hell and that’s supposed to make me want to come to your side of the religious coin! Hell sounds super nice!
As insistant as the pushy religious jerkwads are that they won’t be there, I have to agree with you. I like you blog “handle” by the way; it reminds me of the 60s sitcom.
JP Hanson:
“Christians dominate American culture and society, yet somehow still manage to consider themselves persecuted.”
Christianity is fashionable everywhere from church to the football field. Skepticism and atheism are what folks are reluctant to admit for persecution. Standing up for God is easy. Standing up for reason will make you a social pariah in many circles.
THAT girl:
“I want MY freedom FROM your religion!”
+1
will on THAT girl working for a church:
“Epitamy of hypocrisy.”
NONSENSE! A good Christian person who works for an atheist is doing right for his or her family and has the opportunity to witness, but by her workign for a church, you call her a hypocrite. I bet she fears for her job if the church were to know who she is. That’s not hypocricy will, that’s bravery in the face of bigotry like yours.
David in Salem:
“I believe that the real reason that this fight occurs is that because in this country,the majority of people are christians.”
No the majority of people don’t really care, but have gereations of guilt passed down that tell them to default to “Christianity.” Just like presidential elections where maybe 2 out of 10 vote for the winner. Real Christians are not as big a group as you might think. It sickens me how many people have been fearmongered out of making that decision for themselves and must technically be a “Christian” and never explore their natural skepticism to prevent getting an indelible black mark from friends and the family. Saying you’re a Christian unquestionably makes everything easier and keeps the lid on the can of worms.
will:
“There are so many demons attached to you the prayer cover must be awfully week there or else you would feel very uncomfortable walking through the door.”
But I bet you think palm reading and tarot cards are stupid, don’t you.
Here’s an idea, Dan. You Christians stop violating the Constitution, and us atheists will stop taking you to court and making you stop. Not that we don’t just love having to constantly fight to keep you from using your majority position to impose your views on everyone, but as a society I just feel we could make more progress if we could agree that not every public place needs to respect your special Jesus time.
Being free of the fear of hell is the freest free some will never know.
Davis from Salem, I’m sorry, but it’s ridiculous to make the claim that ‘freedom of religion’ does not mean ‘freedom from religion.’ True religious freedom, if it means anything, means I can choose to follow no faith. The alternative would to force someone to believe in something, which is coercive even if you don’t force them to believe something in particular.
It is certainly true that none of us have a right to never see religion in public–I can’t demand that churches take down their crosses, or that people (even government workers) don’t place nativity scenes on their front lawns. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about government expressions of religion, which the Constitution clearly prohibits. It’s swell that you don’t mind government expressions of religion, but if you were a member of a religious minority, you might understand why some find this alienating. Not to mention, what do you propose be done if both the devout Christian and devout Muslim at town hall wish to hang their emblems on the wall? Should they fight it out, or maybe take turns? Or perhaps we should just acknowledge that religion is a personal choice, and one that shouldn’t be endorsed or compelled, however weakly, by government.
will:
“If you are an atheist why are you working at a church? Have you told your employer how you feel? I hope you do not work with the children.”
You’re a bigot and make me sick. I once worked for a large firm with a Christian boss and the receptionist was an atheist. She didn’t dare tell and needed the job. It was none of his business either.
Why on earth shouldn’t she work with the children? Are you afraid she’ll accidently slip and make a rational, secular statement that doesn’t further soften their impressionable, fearmongered little minds? I hope you aren’t implying that she is immoral or would harm the children simply because she doesn’t subscribe to your God. Something tells me that you never had a chance.
Frank several cities are interfering with Chik Fil A opening. Good lesson for the owner. He can voice his views and the market can respond. It really doesn’t matter. The world hardly needs more fast food.
#5 “Successful and well educated like the Board of Supervisors”??? Have you ever watched one of Roanoke County’s Board meetings? Have you ever tried to understand anything Butch Church says? Is having no job and five ex wives successful? And Eddie Elswick from Bent Mountain? “Successful and well educated”…..not so much.
Actually the First Amendment forbids CONGRESS from PASSING A LAW respecting the establishment of religion. However, the activists have been successful in mutating that into basically meaning ANY religious expression in a public setting is forbidden. It’s quite a stretch. I mena you folks have actually equated the legally-binding act of Congress passing a law establishing only one religion with someone saying a prayer before a high school football game. Like that has the same weight of law. I mean the band boosters also tell everyone to buy a hotdog to support the team before the game. Does that mean I am legally obligated to do that? Will the ACLU sue the school for me if I don’t like hotdogs?
Sorry to all the Freedom From Religion Foundation fans, but the Constitution simply does not guarantee the freedom FROM religion, no matter how much the haters wish it did. The Constitution guarantees the freedom OF religion.
The irony of it all is that we always hear atheists bitching and whining about how the religious people are forcing ther views on them. You never actually see it happening, just people complaining about it while they in turn do their damndest to force their views on everyone else.
Athiests seem to live by the mantra that they don’t believe in religion and anyone else who does is wrong. They can’t seem to even discuss it without calling names and denigrating anyone who expresses faith. They do alot of talking about how people try to convert them, but all we see here are atheists who seem to feel compelled to insult and disaparge anyone who doesn’t share their non-beliefs, and who do so in the name of tolerance.
I new you wanted my input. Atheist, Occupy RoanokeVA and Anarchist are most likely going to Hell when they die, not by my word, but what’s written in the Bible. I feel bad for youz guyz. I’m purt near sure I’m right!
Wisconsin has some good cheese. Stay there!
I’ve been running a three part series on the situation in Roanoke on my blog. It’s pretty detailed so take a look:
http://etratio.blogspot.com/2012/07/adventures-in-prayer-land-part-1.html
will in comment #36 brings up an interesting point. Many of the speakers supporting public prayer at the council meeting were explicitly opposed to anything remotely connected with President Obama. And yet other members in the crowd supporting public prayer, presumably LIKED President Obama precisely because he called for prayer following the Aurora shootings.
The cognitive dissonance was astounding. People hated the president and loved the president depending on the situation. I wish some people would be more consistent.
@37 – Lake Claytor, it gives me hope that you see the importance of this issue even if you approach it from a different angle.
I would like to point out to everyone here that clearly conversation on this forum can result in consideration of one’s stance on an issue and Lake Claytor’s post is proof of that. I do not believe his response to this issue would have been nearly the same when he first started posting months ago. I also find it refreshing that he is coming to the same conclusion but from a Christian point of view. I hope you are able to make more folks consider this issue in the light that is now being shed on it, Lake Claytor.
Frank !51 posted, “sooo, should rahm emanual prevent chic-fila from opening restaurants in his fair city because of the company’s owner’s religious beliefs? before you offer a response, remember, rahm was/is obama’s biggest supporter… Comment by Frank — July 26, 2012 @ 6:34 pm
Not sure you are getting the point – it isn’t a religious affiliation that disturbs Rahn Emanuel is discrimination…for example, if the KKK decided to open up a hot dog stand, and said, we are firm believers in the lifestyle of the Founding Fathers…therefore only white, land owning customers please…
Your post is illogical and dead wrong, and your last sentence is an example of trying to redirect the discussion – not going to happen,
“…We’re talking about government expressions of religion, which the Constitution clearly prohibits…”
The Constitution prohibits an official government ENDORSEMENT of a religion, not expressions of religion. To me, there’s a huge difference there. Individual citizens holding government positions are still individuals with the right to freely practice (or not practice) their religion too.
Our Father,who aren’t in Heaven . . .
#49: belle, they’ve already done so. In scientific circles, “AD” is now C.E. (Common Era) and “BC” is now B.C.E. (Before Common Era).
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will believes that the quality and quantity of prayer can protect a church and its parishioners from the demons that infest ourselves and the earth… interesting.
Because of my sometimes frightening apathy and borderline sociopathy, I’ve been told by many that I’m “infested” by demons. This has been told to me by shamans, fundamentalist Christians, agnostics and a few others. Yet I seem to have no problem walking into ANY church, temple or otherwise hallowed ground. There is no sense of foreboding, no overwhelming urge to flee the place. No unseen force or entity repels me from such places and I’m in them all the time.
So, by applying logic to this (please, hold your laughter), there are two likely conclusions here: a) I am not, in fact, infested by demons or b) being infested by demons is not nearly the abomination to God as we’ve made it out to be.
You know what? Forget it. The Oatmeal does a better and infinitely more humorous job: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion
why are some liberal city governments banning chick-fil-a because of the owner having expressed his views on gay marraige? what about free speech? what about freedom from religious prosecution?
Here’s what strikes me as funny. This column, more than anything else, poked fun at local governments for fighting unwinnable battles with the FFRF, which does nothing but waste taxpayer money and help the FFRF raise it. Specifically, it took a poke at the RoCo BOS.
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In response, I’ve had many angry emails from FFRF members. They seem to have no sense of humor whatsoever
Chuck, that’s always been my interpretation of the 1st Amendment too. Our government is forbidden to erect a temple to any deity and force us to bow to it…nothing more, nothing less. Good thing we have the SCOTUS to interpret it for all us though huh? Great post top to bottom.
@71 – Sense of humor? Of course they don’t – look at what they do for a living.
Dan, is there ANYONE you haven’t inspired to send you an angry email or hateful blog post? I see you as an equal opportunity agitator…everyone is fair game!
Oddly enough, you all think that it is indeed a “Good thing we have the SCOTUS to interpret it for all us” when you agree with them.
Marked Man “47.will, do you know where the word ‘Hell’ was translated from originally in the New Testament? From ancient Greek mythology, from the name of a valley outside of Jerusalem, and from an ancient Hebrew word that means ‘grave’”.
Yes actually when Jesus gave an illustration of what hell would be like He pointed to the valley of Gehenna the Greek word “gehenna” is translated “hell” in the following scriptures
Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29 Matthew 5:30 ; 10:28 ; 18:9 ; Matthew 23:15 Matthew 23:33 ; Mark 9:43 Mark 9:45 Mark 9:47 ; Luke 12:5 ;
“The name means `valley of Hinnom,’ for it is the Greek form of the Hebrew GEHINNOM (Joshua 18:16, LXX)… This valley lay to the west and south of ancient Jerusalem. (Joshua 15:8; 18:16; Jeremiah 19:2, 6)
“Under the later kings of Judah it was used for the idolatrous worship of the pagan god Molech, to which god human sacrifices, mostly children, were offered by fire. (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31, 32; 32:35)
“To prevent its use again for such religious purposes, faithful King Josiah had the valley polluted, particularly the part called Topheth, and it came to be the dumping place and incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem (2 Kings 23:10).
“Here the bodies of dead animals were thrown to be consumed in the fires to which sulphur or brimstone was added to assist the burning.
The fire burned constantly and even where it smoldered along the edges wild animals and worms and maggots would eat the scraps.
Jesus was saying, “if you want to know what hell looks like, look at the valley of gehenna.”
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 ” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
Key words here spoken by Jesus 23 In hell, where he was in torment,
John Wilborn – I am not a bigot. Anyone who claims to be an atheist has no business working for a Christian church. There are unseen forces in the heavenly realms attached to the deception that is atheism. Read the scripture. Your argument is with God, not me. Tell Him he is a bigot. I’m sorry if the god you have made up in your head does not fit the description of the God that gave us His word so we could know Him.
And if you say there is no God you have set yourself up as a god and that violates the second commandment.
The fact is we have all sinned and fall short of God’s law but God loved us enough to send His Son to die in our place, satisfy the just penalty for our sins, and rise from the grave to give the assurance of eternal life to all who will repent (turn away from) of their sin and trust in the finished work of Christ.
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me>”
I am praying for you all.
Re: Comment by J.M.White — July 27, 2012 @ 12:54 pm
The Oatmeal does a better and infinitely more humorous job: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion
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Good link!
But do you really expect folk to “‘Read, Mark, Learn, and Inwardly Digest” the truth?
Re: Comment by J.M.White — July 27, 2012 @ 12:54 pm
Mean time in real life:
http://tinyurl.com/cjkc99x
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Black wedding rejected at white church
WLBT|Added on July 27, 2012
A day before their wedding a black couple is told they can’t get married at a predominantly white church. WLBT reports.
[Video]
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Hi, Dan!
Don’t forget- A sense of humor is a precious thing. Unfortunately, when you get trampled constantly for fighting the stranglehold of religious privilege, you tend to be jumpy :/
Satire was relevant, but slightly dry- 8/10, would read again
Atheist Visitor number ???
#78 will, dude, the Bible lessons are getting tiresome.
I shared this link on July 16 on the Round Table and it is compelling in explaining how to look at public prayer IMO.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/prayer.htm
will:
“Anyone who claims to be an atheist has no business working for a Christian church.”
So can a Christian church fire an atheist? Can a secular non-profit fire a Christian? What’s wrong with a Christian working for a secular non-profit?
“Read the scripture.”
Oh, I have. You’ll find that the skeptics have read more of it tht anyone. Atheists are typically well-versed in the Bible.
“Your argument is with God, not me.”
God has never done anything bad to me. I can’t say the same for “Christians”.
“I’m sorry if the god you have made up in your head does not fit the description of the God that gave us His word so we could know Him.”
Your God burns cities and advocates killing children. You’re picking up right where he left off.
“And if you say there is no God you have set yourself up as a god and that violates the second commandment.”
If I were a god, I wouldn’t carry a gun.
will, are you afraid to challenge your beliefs? Do you think that accepting the Bible in faith without question could rightfully be considered intellectual laziness and a ready-made crutch for weak minded people?
Anyone who doesn’t have a bible needs only to keep reading this blog. Eventually the entire text will be posted verse by verse by will.
Step 1: You can’t prove your book of dogmatic literature/mythology is true by quoting it and using it as a source.
Step 2: Review Step 1.
“Oddly enough, you all think that it is indeed a “Good thing we have the SCOTUS to interpret it for all us” when you agree with them.”
As do you Sandi. I imagine you feel pretty good about the Obamacare decision right? But tell me, how do you feel about Heller or Citizen’s United?
Dave @ #86:” Anyone who doesn’t have a bible needs only to keep reading this blog. Eventually the entire text will be posted verse by verse by will.”
You’re on the right track, dave…how about a song patterned after Johnny Cash’s “One Piece At A Time”, but instead of a car that’s incrementally swiped by an autoworker, it’s a bellhop swiping pages from a Gideon’s bible. Then when he goes to reassemble it, he gets it scrambled, and can only refer to short random passages. Call the bellhop will, and it’ll be “The Free Will Bible”.
“And if you say there is no God you have set yourself up as a god and that violates the second commandment.”
Back to back lunacy. Stow it, will.
#86 Dave,
Yeah, ‘cause it makes so much sense for a guy who can’t capitalize his own first name to try to convert strangers on a blog…
#79 will posted, The fact is we have all sinned and fall short of God’s law but God…”
Please speak for yourself about sinning…and “falling short”, and do your own penance and stop worrying about the rest of us. If there is a heaven, we’ll meet you there.
Actually Will, ancient scripture makes no reference to an actual place called Hell. The word ‘Hell’ became a catch all replacement during translations through the years for each of the instances I told you about. Hell is not a place.
“Hell is not a place.”
I knew a person who once told me about an experiment conducted in which microphones were lowered deep into the earth and moans and screams, presumably from Hell, were heard. Some suggest it is in the center of the earth.
Persoanlly, I think Hell is located on the the empty seat that is around will, John Calvin, and Suzie’s Bible study table.
will, where exactly is Hell? Where exactly is Heaven?
On the subject of Chik-Fil-A:
I think it’s funny when I see an overweight person in Chick-Fil-A saying a blessing over their high-calorie, fat-filled meal. What could they be praying about? ”Dear Lord, Thank You for this food, which isn’t good for me at all, and will further my health and weight problems. I know I should be asking You for strength to lose weight so that I will be healthier, but this crap just TASTES SO GOOD! And it’s a BIBLE-based business, Lord! And please, Lord, if You don’t let those gays marry, next time, I’ll order the grilled chicken with my deep-fried waffle fries. I promise. Amen.”
Contrasuzie:
“95….I think it’s funny when I see an overweight person in Chick-Fil-A saying a blessing over their high-calorie, fat-filled meal.”
LOL. Since we’re apparently both going to hell, I’ll save you a seat!
Re: ChiFilA…if you have a product or concept to sell, the quickest and easiest way to build a market for it would be to slap the Jesus card on it. Tell certain people something’s “Christian” and they’ll line up like sheep for it. Fried chicken, frozen yogurt, mediocre quarterbacking…it sells like hotcakes with the holy imprimatur.
Kristen:
“Tell certain people something’s “Christian” and they’ll line up like sheep for it.”
You’re right, but in fairness to Chick-fil-A, they have a very good product. While I don’t agree with them on everything, they have a successful business model, charge high prices that folks gladly pay, better than average service for fast food, and all the while staying closed on what would be the most profitable day of the week, Sunday. I give them a lot of credit for that.
The Jesus card attached to anything does have a blind following, but that sells their product short.
That’s a good idea Dave. I’ll start here.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning–the first day.
And Steve C what is the hang up you have with my name?