Tuesday’s column: Patrick Henry High’s ‘required’ dues are illegal in Va.
One of the best parts of Virginia’s Constitution is Article VIII. It’s about education. It runs 1,444 words, so allow me to boil down the important bits:
1. The General Assembly will provide for quality public elementary and secondary education.
2. Attendance is compulsory.
3. Local schools are governed by local boards.
4. The schools are free.
For our purposes today that’s the important stuff, especially the part about free.
It’s interesting in light of a postcard, from Patrick Henry High School, that arrived at our home at the end of June. It advised of orientation for parents of new students — my son enters ninth grade there in August.
Prominently situated on the card’s left side were these lines:
2012-2013 Dues
*Underclass Dues $30 (required)
*Senior Class Dues $50 (required)
Then on the right it listed a bunch of “optional” fees for things like student parking. It helpfully noted: “Class schedules may be picked up when paying fees!” It was signed Connie Ratcliffe, principal.
My son Zach picked up his class schedule July 16, forked over his $30 in “required” dues, and got a receipt. And that made me wonder:
How much are the dues at other public schools that are supposed to be free?
READ THE REST OF THIS COLUMN HERE.
July 24, 2012 - 6:00 AM
Dan
Wake up and smell the coffee, nothing is free! You libs are awlays complaining that we don’t pay enough taxes and fee’s. what I think you really want is the kids from wealther families to pay the fee’s for the rest of the kids? I don’t have a problem paying my own way or my families. This comment is not meant for you Dan as I know you can afford them but for others if you can’t afford to have kids, don’t have them DUU!
Amazing,
Dan could care less about getting fleeced for 2% more in meals taxes to support city public schools but chafes at paying an annual due of $30 to the school itself.
Dan: I guess the only way they get around this is by calling it a “due.” If you use liberal logic, a due is not a penalty or a tax, so therefore the children are still attending for free. I’m sure Judge Roberts would concur!
They should make the wealthier students pay more, then raise the meals tax.
Dan, I gotta be honest, I’d rather pay twice as many “dues” and completely do away with any school sponsored “fund raisers” for all the various clubs and crap. I don’t care about the constitutionality, I’d rather pay one flat fee and not have the whole candles/wrapping paper/popcorn/car washes/etc. etc. stuff going on during the year.
I’m sure this post will make you an even more popular parent among PH staff.
Thirty dollars for a whole year of my child’s education seems a small price to pay, and I’m willing to do it. As long as everyone participates. As it stands, I’d guess about half pay and half don’t. Kind of like taxes, don’t you think?
I recently got the supply list for my sixth grader who attends public school. Noted at the bottom of the list is ‘Advanced 6th gr English students will also need: $15 for Vocabulary for Achievement (purchase at registration).’ Out of curiosity, I called to see if any other ‘group’ at the school has an additional book fee. ESL students? Nope. All their materials are free. Special Ed? Same thing. Those requiring remedial reading services and materials? Again, no extra charges. So, as usual, the ones who are succeeding in school are being penalized for their success by being the only ones charged an additional fee. But, the secretary was quick to note that ‘if you can’t afford it, you don’t have to pay it. If your child receives free breakfast and lunch, or you receive welfare of SNAP benefits, you’re exempt.’ As always!
I’d pay the dues anyway. Schools need all the help they can get.
I quit joining PTAs, though. Too much drama and hassle. You don’t have to be a member of the PTA to volunteer time or donate supplies.
I disagree with their “dues”. They should raise Suzie’s taxes to cover the shortfall.
Last week I paid my fees for the 7th time all together, and was told the same thing I’m always told…save your receipt because you might have to prove you paid them when your kid’s a senior in order for them to graduate.
We paid the dues… all four years. I never questioned it. I think I remember getting that same post card last year and asking my daughter.. “What are we paying for exactly?” Of course, she didn’t know.
I think the most concerning thing here is the idea that public schools are “free.” The only way schools are in operation is our tax dollars. NOTHING the government provides is free. All government benefits and institutions are paid for by us.
6
You nailed it. Many kids simply WON’T pay…whether they can or not.
But, Dan will.
What a CROCK.
Omg Miriam I am SO with you on that. Hate selling, it hate buying it, and would rather stroke a check any day to get out of it.
Suzie lives in the county, her taxes don’t go to PH, JohnW, but nice try.
There are exaclty 2 high schools in Roanoke City. I find it very unlikely that Bishop’s office was unaware of these postcards, especially in light of the fact that some of her staff must be receiving them.
Kristen,
My daughter Anna swears they were told the same thing over and over last year: You can’t graduate unless you’ve paid all your dues and fees.
BUT, state law is quite clear about this. Schools and school boards are prohibited from charging mandatory dues. Also, they are prohibited from withholding diplomas from any student who doesn’t pay dues or other fees.
Hmm, Michael and Bob H griping about Dan exposing an illegal “mandatory” fee from a government entity.
Hey, Bob H, nobody in the whole world was being forced to pay the 2 percent tax; PH parents are being told this fee is mandatory. See the difference?
BTW, Bob H, weren’t you one of those folks who wrongly predicted that the meals tax would never be allowed to expire? Good call, buddy.
Who pays the dues for the under privileged students?
I thought the lottery was supposed to be the saviour of educational funding in VA.
In the past my wife and I always just sort of smiled when we got the “mandatory” fee notice because we knew that schools were supposed to be “free.” However, we always paid it because it didn’t bother us.
Dan
You need to hire John Fishwick and sue the school system. This is an outrage. Kids need to know that society owes them an education and administrators need to pay dearly if they ask families to chip in a nickel to help out.
But that’s not all that should be free. Health care is a right and should be free. We all need food and shelter and that also should be free. The rich are skating by only having to pay 50% of their income in taxes and it is about time we go after them.
roanokemom answered part of my question.
But don’t you realize roanokemom that children that achieve cannot do so without the help of the underachievers? At least that is what our esteemed “educator in chief” believes.
#16 “I thought the lottery was supposed to be the saviour of educational funding in VA.”
Where did you get that idea, will? Did you just make it up? Don’t tell me, you have religious objections to the lottery.
Even if SOME people made that claim, the majority didn’t. Everybody knew that lottery profits would hit a plateau and pretty much stay there or even decline, but school spending would increase. So there’s no way the lottery could be the “savior.” However, I don’t think you’d want to remove those hundreds of millions, either.
Obama to the kids whose parents cannot ‘afford’ to pay the fees… “If you’re school fees are paid, you didn’t do it on your own, someone else did it for you.”
Seriously though, it’s a joke just like the School Supply lists. I have seen about 16 of these lists over the years. Some of them ask for 6 glue sticks, 3 packs of loose leaf paper, a pack of dry erase markers, 3 boxes of tissues, hand sanitizer, etc. etc. Is it mandatory that you buy them?? No. Does your kid get what he/she did not use sent home with them at the end of the year? No. In fact, they all get piled up in a closet or on a shelf and they are used throughout the year… all 30 packs of dry erase markers… all 90 packs of loose leaf paper… etc.
If these supplies are puchased by the parents that CAN afford them, then you have to wonder what happens with the leftover $$ that each class or grade level has budgeted for supplies?
We finally decided to only puchase notebooks, pencils, erasers, and whatever else our kids needed to get through the year… not purchase extras for everyone else’s kids to get through the year as well. Like Will stated, shouldn’t the lottery be covering some of this?? Especially since it is a fact that the parents who usually cannot ‘afford’ school supplies are the ones that are out squandering money on lottery tix?
terps, if you don’t believe public education should be free, per the Constitution of Virginia, you need to hire some RW politicians and get the constitution changed.
The idea that lottery proceeds would be used solely for public education was true, but only in the most literal and accounting sense.
As soon as the proceeds began rolling in, the legislature started draining the general fund of other money it was putting in to fund education. This what virtually every other state has done.
And when they go for casinos in Virginia, which will be soon, it’ll be the same ruse.
Dan
I think everything should be free. Just like it is in North Korea.
Gdad,
“If the rate was the same as this year, that means I’ve shelled out $450 in “required” dues over the years, counting the $30 Zach got nipped for last week.
Which makes me wonder: How many other families are out hundreds they never had to pay?”
This article is a gripe about how much Dano has paid out. Get it?
Now tell me conservatives run the educational institutions……
#20 AND what Dan said in #23.
gdad
it was not “some” who made that claim. It was by far the majority of the advertising promoting passage of the bill.
But like most things liberal government promises ( remember the Social Security Trust Fund) the funds have been hijacked to pay for other programs (read “buying votes” and cronyism here).
The lottery passed under the guise of educational funding period.
I figured you would be against the lottery. After all it is just another tax on the poor. Do you know any rich folks that hang out at the quik – mart buying tickets? WOW once again rich liberal demacrats paying for their programs on the backs of the lower middle class.
terps, you’re cracking me up.
—-
On the lottery, doesn’t it concern you folks that most people that buy lotto are “under-privileged”? I’ve heard others call it a “Stupid Tax”, a tax on stupid people…for being stupid.
Does it bother you that our education system is supported by revenues that ultimately HURT the “least” in our society?
If attendance is compulsory and dues are required, isn’t this pretty much the exact same argument as the ObamaCare SCOTUS debate? That you can’t be taxed for simply being a citizen? Kids are citizens, with a requirement to attend school and thus, pay the dues. Adults are citizens, with a requirement to have health insurance or pay ‘dues’ if they don’t. I guess the ‘way out’ is to homeschool, with it’s requisite costs, and avoid paying the penalty of required dues.
The thing about fees, dues, penalties, etc are they are additional taxes as the Supreme Court recently stated. The State of VA decided parents should not have to pay additional taxes at the school level long ago, yet when the local, state, and federal governments have not adequately funded the schools (per their own guidelines for funding) the schools seek to raise money in the form of fees and dues. This amounts to a tax being assessed by the school system for which they have no authority. Yet, from the comments above, the RWers sure don’t mind paying them.
The schools should be funded by the state and local governments, the selling of merchandise by the students door to door should be eliminated as a rip-off of parents and as a safety concern.
The politicians should stop hiding their tax increases through fees and penalties and hidden legislation and be upfront in their tax needs and spending. That goes for the ACA as well as the local schools.
#25 Why am I not surprised that Bob H doesn’t get it yet again?
#27 We’ll wait for your proof that the majority of people sold the lottery as the SAVIOR of education.
#s 27 & 28 I’m certain that it doesn’t concern conservatives who buys tickets. After all, it’s not the government’s job to be a “nanny.”
O lucky Connie Ratcliff when she gets back from vacation.
33
Just something to think about gdad. No need to get so defensive.
Getting a real kick out of how the hater regulars are all making up motivations for Dan writing this column. Un-bunch your shorts from your collective arses and relax. All Dan did her was show you that many schools are routinely collecting nominal fees from students with varying consequences for not complying. And right off the bat he showed that the Virginia Constitution prohibits it. Very simple. Supply drama, boogeymen, hidden agendas and conspiracy theories at will. Oh wait, you’ve already jumped that shark.
Dan,
I am so glad you brought this up. I was always astounded to see how many obligations students would have. I know that guidance and administration would send out a huge list of all students who owed obligations and teachers were told to tell students what they owed and that they couldn’t go to prom or participate in any of the senior activities if they didn’t pay. Some students literally had hundreds of dollars of obligations for textbooks and student dues. If memory serves correctly, they also had sophomore and junior class dues. While Bishop’s is to be respected for not supporting this policy, how could she not know?
BTW: these are not nominal dues: 30-30 dollars is a lot of money for the average low income Roanoker. Why does Roanoke City charge do much more than other localities?
I don’t know if any kid was ever actually kept from graduating or walking across the stage due to owing obligations, but I bet there have been kids who couldn’t buy a prom ticket because of them. The point is, perhaps the school system knows they can’t really collect, but they pursue the kids as if they could. I do know personally of a student who was told he couldn’t participate in graduation practice due to obligations for a textbook. The teacher took responsibility for the missing book so the kid could run and catch the bus to the Civic Center.
Longthoughts, I can’t believe she didn’t know. Half the city is getting these postcards, and she’s never seen one?
And keep in mind…if you have two kids, it’s twice as much. I can pay them and they don’t really bother me, and if another $10 from me would ensure that a kid from another home got a planner too, I’d go for it. I think the problem is in the straight-up threat of not being able to graduate. It’s not implied, it’s flat said outloud.
Maybe this is why PH has the PTA doing the collecting, and the “save the receipt if you want your kid to walk” business.
#38 “Why does Roanoke City charge do much more than other localities?”
Roanoke City has a whole lot more students from low-income families, refugee families, and special-needs students than pretty much any other locality in the region.
Regarding the “can’t graduate” threat. So, you think this is the FIRST time school employees have ever lied to you or your children? What a charming thought.
That’s the thing, old blue…they’re not school employees. They have moms there collecting the cash.
#42 I’m trying to figure put who said they thought this was the first time a school employee lied to them. Can you point that one out to us, old blue?
BTW, I’ve also aware that I’ve been lied to by politicians of all stripes, private business people trying to sell me goods or services, doctors, co-workers, bosses, relatives, Christians…
old blue, kristen and others,
What seems to have happened is this: Some schools have been telling parents the dues are “required” and they’ve been happily collecting the money from all of those who didn’t question it or complain they can’t afford it. The former they let slide and the latter they covered on a case-by-case basis with some other funds.
When I saw the word “required” on the post card, I decided to question it because I strongly suspected that was wrong under the law. And now they’re falling all over themselves to say “required” doesn’t really mean “required” but it still kinda sorta does.
MMM’s point about the laundry list of elementary school “supplies” is a good one, too. It’s a shame that glue sticks and whatnot are not provided.
And Kristen’s point about the warning to save receipts that you’ve paid the dues (so you can prove it later on) is an interesting one. So is the one made by my daughter, Anna, who graduated from PH in 2011: She says students were warned they couldn’t graduate if they hadn’t paid their dues/fees.
The latter seems buttressed by the language from the PH handbook which calls dues/fees and obligation that must be paid.
So it sounds like there’s a disconnect between the law and what the schools have been telling parents and students and what they have finally acknowledged in the column.
The school supply argument is a VERY good one. Back in the day I was poorer, my kids were younger, and I was more intimidated by stuff that came from the school…it used to really tick me off when they’d have things like “Crayons…preferably Crayola. Gluestick…preferably Elmers”. No generics.
http://crystal.rcps.info/modules/cms/pages.phtml?pageid=188863&sessionid=4140fffec2906a19cbde1ef4429e1c59&sessionid=4140fffec2906a19cbde1ef4429e1c59
This is the Crystal Spring list. Oy. And rife with spelling errors. Double oy.
Excellent answer about why Rnk. City’s obligations are higher, Gdad. On a related note, the ELL/refugee kids are some of the ones with the most onerous obligations, as in hundreds of dollars. I don’t really know what happens when they can’t pay them.
Parents should not be expected to provide crayons and glue for their children. We need to demand that the government provide these supplies.
Also, kids need socks and underwear to go to school. I want socks and underwear distributed to my children by their teachers on the first day of school so my kids can get their “fair share”.
Kids need to learn to rely on government and not their parents.
The schools claim they are broke but they have millions. Stop falling into their trap. It’s all a facade for Rita bishops power plays. Money is her answer to everything and the school board is clueless.
Terps,
The list is much longer than that. Napkins, tissues, hand-santizer, ziploc baggies (boys need to bring a box of gallon-sized; girls have to being a box of pint-sized), boxes of baby wipes, 48 presharpened Ticonderoga pencils, 50 pencil cap erasers, 4 boxes of 24 count Crayola crayons, bottles of Elmers glue (no gel) ….. and that’s just the beginning. Seriously, the lists go on an on.
http://crystal.rcps.info/modules/cms/pages.phtml?pageid=188863&sessionid=4140fffec2906a19cbde1ef4429e1c59&sessionid=4140fffec2906a19cbde1ef4429e1c59
#48 Schools DO have clothes closets because some kids really DON’T have parents, terps. I’m guessing, though, that you’d prefer just to let them run around naked to teach them a lesson for being born to such worthless parents. That’ll show those kids, by god.
Dan
Right! The government should provide all of that stuff and more. In fact, we should just do away with parents. We ought to just hand over our kids to the government when they are born and let the government raise them and pay for everything.
Liberal utopia would be achieved.
Ha! Love the Crystal Spring list. Especially the last entry in 3rd grade: DO NOT LABLE YOUR SUPPLIES. Don’t label them, boys and girls, so we can redistribute them to others who didn’t bring any. Wish I could LABLE my tax dollars that are redistributed to everyone else.
Mr. Beason said it best. It is time for federal, state, and local governments to again fund public education in a reasonable manner. Gone unsaid is the hundreds of dollars teachers spend every year to purchase materials needed in their classrooms – paper, pencils, etc. A public education is “roughly” free Dan, but it’s value cannot really be measured in dollars.
The weirdest school supply I ever had to send in to Crystal was a tin of Altoids. I was told the teacher dumped the mints all into q bag and the kids used the tins for something.
I have two WBHS grads and was surprised to see Roanoke County state the fees aren’t required. For 7 years at WBHS the postcard came stating fees had to be paid to pick up their schedule. So it sure sounded required to me. Same with the computer fee – you could refuse to pay it, but then your student wasn’t issued one. However teachers were told to put tests and in case of an AP class even the textbook was online, so how is it not required?
Oh my. During the 38 years that I taught in RCPS, I provided supplies for the students as did most of my peers. After 6 weeks , many student still did not have a notebook. A notebook! We had Saturday car washes and bake sales to defray the cost of yearbooks so that more students could afford them. Lib-smib, what are you to do? Should students suffer? Of course not. So…?
Interesting that Bishop said she was unaware of the postcard. As a former educator in the city schools, I can tell you that students were asked for “school fees” for the first few weeks of school. Some paid. Some didn’t. After the first few weeks, we were told to withhold locker combinations from students who hadn’t yet paid. Along with several of my co-workers, I refused to do so.
There are MANY items central office personnel will refuse to admit having knowledge of when brought to PUBLIC attention. When in doubt, throw the principal or teacher under the proverbial bus.
As for supply lists, I’m sure that there are teachers who do not send home left-over supplies or use the extras during the year to supplement the needs of students whose parents cannot or will not supply everyday classroom needs. Over the past three years, however, my son has had teachers who have sent home any supplies that were not used by the end of the school year. The principal and teachers at his school worked together to create simplistic, SMALL lists of general supplies rather than request outlandish items. Hello? Altoids?
There are wonderful teachers in the city. I continue to question the ridiculous backtracking and “re-creation of the truth” those at the top continually display.
Lori,
They fooled you, like the rest of us.
NOT REQUIRED. Unlike what the post card says.
So you all think we all should pay higher taxes to provide the things the fees pay for. Taxpayers are going to pay one way or the other. I have three little boys at Crystal Springs and I / we have no problem paying the fees or providing supplies required. I would rather do this then pay higher Real Estate taxes as the fees are fair as only the users of the service actually pay. We also have a great PTA that raises money for the school. So Dan do you think taxes should be raised and folks that are nit users of the school system fund it further. I’m not going to use the “S” word but that’s what it sounds like.
“So you all think we all should pay higher taxes to provide the things the fees pay for. Taxpayers are going to pay one way or the other. I have three little boys at Crystal Springs and I / we have no problem paying the fees or providing supplies required. I would rather do this then pay higher Real Estate taxes as the fees are fair as only the users of the service actually pay. We also have a great PTA that raises money for the school. So Dan do you think taxes should be raised and folks that are nit users of the school system fund it further.”
Michael, I get the sense you would happily pay tuition for your children to attend public elementary and secondary schools. Am I correct about that? If so are you advocating a change to Virginia’s Constitution that would allow public schools to charge students?
And while we’re at it:
1. Do you favor state legislation allowing local governments to send a bill to a homeowner any time that homeowner calls the cops to their home?
2. Would you like to allow fire departments to bill homeowners, and business owners, for putting out fires at their extablishments?
I wish I could say I do not believe some of what has been said here.
Dan,
The money has to come from somewhere. We sent our boys to private school until we correctly figured out that we have one of the best elem schools in valley two blocks from our house. We pay Real Estate tax, sales tax and state income tax for most necessary Government services. If there is not enough money to pay for these services then I don’t mind paying a user fee as opposed to taxing everyone many of whom don’t actually use the service. To answer your question more directly no I’m not opposed to paying for services we actually use. I understand that quality public education is a common good and should be paid for by taxpayer funds (for the most part) but I don’t have a problem paying the extra fees they aren’t that much anyway.
I live in the city, and I don’t have kids. Yet I believe I benefit from an educated populace, and therefore I don’t mind my taxes funding public schools. In fact, I insist.
When my kids were in Roanoke County public school I was much more concerned with some of the stuff in the Student Handbook. In particular, this little item:
Students shall follow all directions given by teachers, principals, and all other school employees.
It’s missing the word “lawful”, as in “lawful directions”. Roanoke County has since fixed this, but when my kids were there, according to the conduct code in place at the time, my kids could have been punished for defying an unlawful direction. Nice.
for howdyshell-your conservative attitude of if a person is wealthy they are acceptable,all others jump off the planet is rather narrow to say the least.
He didn’t criticize it as too much for himself, READ!!!
He SAID that he wondered how much other schools might make kids pay.
For some people this is important because it’s hard to afford!
This practice is backed up by the threat of prevented or delayed graduation, by the way, so it’s very serious in that regard.
-A Patrick Henry Student