Thursday’s column: All hail, Roanoke County’s king of the zealots
Roanoke County Supervisor Butch Church | The Roanoke Times | File
Pop quiz: What does sectarian prayer before government meetings have in common with efforts to curb greenhouse gases in Roanoke County?
The smart alecks out there might answer that both issues have generated lots of hot air recently before the county Board of Supervisors.
But they’re also great ways to bog down a government in mostly meaningless debate. Nowhere was that point made better than at the supervisors’ afternoon and evening meetings Tuesday.
At the center of both controversies was Supervisor Butch Church, who represents the Glenvar district. Until recently he chaired the board, and he ought to know better.
READ THE REST OF THIS COLUMN HERE.
August 30, 2012 - 6:00 AM
Why does Church need to consult Liberty Counsel? That’s why he has County Counsel. The County should not be abdicating it’s legal responsibilities to an evangelical special interest group.
he is a politician…..what better way to appear to be doing something…..when a politician is too gutless or lazy to do anything he or she resorts to this kind of posturing…..it has to be Obama’s fault
Just a few comments:
1. The zealots are the folks who live in Wisconsin, who have nothing to do with Roanoke County and intend to meddle in our affairs. It must be exhausting when your anti-religious bigotry is so strong, you look all over the country to spot people who might be praying.
2. Prayer accomplishes more than anything else in this world. Congratulations to Mr. Chuch for understanding when you abandon God, you’ve lost your way. If anyone is wondering why the United States is in deep trouble, look no further than the godless people running it the past six years.
3. Thank God, the council is “tied up” discussing something as important as this. Otherwise, they might be thinking of ways to spend my money. Like the ridiculous water recreation center in NoCo.
A journalist criticizing free speech is like a politician criticizing politics.
Maybe the Lord and prayer are important to some. It is one of the foundations of our country. You ever heard of the lake of fire?
The actions of Butch Church and Ed Elswick were an embarrassing display of pandering to the Tea Party. When local government leaders – and I use that term loosely – begin to listen to fringe elements who are uninformed and seemingly living in a world full of paranoia and suspicion rather than their trained and experienced staff we are all in trouble. Just the fact that the issue of ICLEI was back before the Board, when just 7 months ago they decided on a 3-2 vote to remain in the organization, is ridiculous. The Tea Party did not prevail and they need to politely concede that fact and deal with reality.
Recent events at Roanoke County Board meetings…
7/27 7:00 pm meeting. After listening to 20 speakers, including myself, pro and con about the prayers, the Board went into closed session to discuss what to do. They said they would make a decision and deliver it to the public that very night…
7/27 9:45 pm meeting continuation. Board reconvenes and says it has decided to develop a non-denominational prayer policy.
8/14 3:00 pm meeting. I attended to publically thank board members on their decision at the last meeting to keep church and state separate. After I left, Butch Church spoke (I watched the board meeting video afterwards) and said the Board had not reached a decision!
Many of us are willing to die for our personal beliefs. Butch is the kind of guy who is willing to kill for his.
Church and state must be strictly separate. There must be neutral ground concerning the one and only thing (government) that we are all forced to submit to!
#3 So, suzie, when is the 10 Commandments issue going to become this huge, pivotal issue in the presidential election? You promised us. We’re still waiting.
No, JamesSwingle, but I’ve heard of the Ring of Fire.
This fiasco makes the City’s council activities seem downright productive and sane.
#5 Hmm, so we’re all doomed to the lake of fire if we don’t allow open, loudly proclaimed Christian prayers at all public body meetings, James Swingle? Really? Well, ancient Egyptians also believed in the lake of fire so maybe we need to hunt down some of their prayers as well.
Must be frustrating to pray so hard for the Lord to give you your way and have so many mortals thwart the desires of the almight. Kinda like prayer works just as good at making things happens and taking the initiative to make things happen.
I don’t judge or doom anyone. They will do that themselves. gdad if you are so good with history you won’t have to go back to ancient Egypt try researching our founding fathers. There were plenty notations of belief and faith in the Lord. Did you know that the founding fathers also were….government officials?
Suzie’s head must be about to explode. What is she to do with this election? Is she going to vote for a Mormon who she doesn’t consider to be a true christian or is she going to vote for a black man who she doesn’t think should be president because he is black?
Suzie, Church voted for the water pit you loathe and thinks it’s the greatest accomplishment the Counties ever had. $50 million plus cost to the taxpayers after interest and he bragged about it at his State of the County speach. But now you thank God for Church on the issue of prayer? You two deserve each other. Maybe you could be Butchies his sixth wife and come to think of it, your boy Mitt would love that. Local Republicans even forced Butchie out of the party because he was too crazy for them. Currently the school admninistration is talking about closing an underused school (Fort Lewis) in “his” District as he likes to say. Mark my word he will go hillbilly nuts when he gets the chance to weigh in on that issue. Maybe he should have thought about that before the supported the water pit. Or…….maybe he’ll pray on it and they’ll find money to keep the school open. The only thing dumber than your comments and Churchs were little Eddies from Bent Mountain. Church and Elswick, Dumb and Dumber.
Gdad I also did not mean lake of fire for all who did not pray at governmental meetings. Sorry about not being more specific. But open ridicule of prayer and things of the Lord individuals may be in trouble…
People who live near fracking know about “lakes of fire”.
There were so many bizarre ironies and other items that came out of Tuesday’s meetings that I didn’t have space to fit them all into a column. Here are a few:
1. The afternoon meeting was opened by a Hindu priest who uttered a prayer in his native language, then provided a translation. Part of the translation was a message to God to “help us separate the unreal from the real.” Then later the Tea Party started in with their garbage about ICLEI.
2. One of the evening agenda items was a ordinance that would allow county homeowners in residentially zoned areas to have up to six hens on their property. Chickens are barred now on residentially zoned land (and there’s no chicken limit on land zoned for agriculture). Two citizens who clearly didn’t understand the measure got and spoke against it. One was from Bent Mountain (all of which is zoned agriculture). They opposed it partly because it seemed to them to be clearly a case of government infringing on a property owner’s right to have roosters, “which keep the hens happy,” one said. They also thought some people who had large residentially zoned lots should be able to have more. Elswick and Church tried to derail the legislation (they failed) because of those two speakers. Talk about pandering! They were trying to change the law for the sake of people who misunderstood it.
3. Ben Peyton, owner of Fox News Radio 910 was there. He threatened the board that if they adopted a nonsectarian prayer policy, he would keep that news on the radio 24 hours a day, day after day. It was clearly a warning that they better not adopt it, or he would let them have it.
Ol Butch Church knows a little bit about roosters keeping the hens happy. I bet he was grinning during that presentation.
Gather ’round, folks! Time for a refresher for some of the people here…
The First Amendment to the Constitution says in part that, “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion…”
Now tell me where that says we can mix our governance and religion? Where does it say that only Christians can have a voice in the affairs of our nation?
Do you really want to open meetings with passages from the holy books of Muslims? or of the Baha’i? or the Sikhs? or the Jews? or the Wiccans? or the Pentacostals? or the Catholics? or the Zoroastrians? or the Taoists? or the Celts? or the Shinto? or the Rastafarians? or the Messianics? or the Hindus? or the Mormons?
I mean, we can’t just allow a Christian prayer to be spoken w/o also giving every other religion a turn. Fair’s fair.
There is a Very Good Reason why the founders were wise enough to say “no” to allowing the government to pick one religion as the “official” faith of the nation. Can you imagine the fight you’d have every time a new president was elected and he wanted his particular religion to be The One American religion?
We have enough on our plates now. We do not need to argue this point over and over again when it was settled more than 200 years ago by the founders most folks revere — even if they don’t understand them fully.
Butch Church can push his religion on folks on his own time. The county has no business telling anyone how to worship. He will lose — absolutely lose — as has been the case for years. He spends taxpayer money on this at his own political risk, but be assured that it is the folly of a man who is ignorant of history and legal precedent.
Another irony:
The nonsectarian prayer that Paul Mahoney drafted was almost a complete copy job of the Chesterfield County ordinance, which has been upheld by the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals. The reason they adopted it was a Wiccan priestess came to the board and demanded to be allowed to open meetings with some Wiccan prayers. When that happened, a bunch of Christians went to the board and demanded that they adopt a nonsectarian policy.
Saintbridge…
You listed known religions. It’s also true that the definition of religion in this country is so freaking broad that basically anyeone can invent their own, and give it the same legal standing as any other. That could be fun. I might make one just so I can do fun prayers at government functions. Shoot, I might even make Dan Casey the high priest of it all cause he is already clergy, and has a concealed carry permit. That’s good 2′fer right there.
The Holy Church of Concealed Carry?
I nominate John Wilburn as the bishop, and Dave Hicks as its pope.
I’m waiting for the first Wiccan group that wants to do a weekday relgious education program in any of the surrounding counties whose religious communities promote such things. That would be a fun thing to watch.
Rave on, brothers!
Another irony – the Hindu priest who opened the afternoon board meeting asked people to move “from ignorance to knowledge”. Too bad more people didn’t listen!
And
Dan, you left out the bearded speaker who appeared to be a pastor of a Church who shook his finger at the Supervisors and told them that adopting this ordinance would make each of them, individually, responsible for the removal of Jesus Christ from county government.
I hav been raised as a Christian, attended church, have been active .
But the job of the Roanoke County government is not to pander to my religion or any other. They have serious and important business to discuss. If they want to establish a thoughtful and contemplative atmosphere at the beginning of each meeting, observe a moment of silence, allowing each person present time to pray if they wish , or just to contemplate the importance of whatever issues are coming before them that day. That is simple, it requires no ordinance to codify it, it doesn’t step n anybody’s toes or endorse or restrict anybody’sa faith. It is a common sense solution . That is why Butch church and Ed Elswick will never understand it. For Butch it would take away his opportunity to fawn and pander for votes. And for Ed, who knows what thought processes lurk in his weird mind.
As for the ICLEI nuts, you also left out the speaker who wanted to know if anyone had “ana;lyzed that software, and checked the algorithims and if anybody knew if using the software was not infecting the county’s computer systems with a trojan horse that was stealing all the county’s dasta and sending it to that secret UN group that is plotting to destroy property rights all over the world. Absolutely paranoid, schizoid, unbelievable.
The immense waste of time and talent that these false issues costs the board is inexcusable. And the same thing is true at the state and national levels with the extreme social agendas being pushed by primarily Republicans. When we have pressing and important problems to deal with like infrastructure, job craeation, reforming medicare and social security, dealing with debt issues, doing something serious about setting priorities cutting where cuts can reasonably be made, and increasing revenues where necessary to deal with problems, House Republicans have wasted immense hours of time introiducing and pushing social agenda items.
The crazies are not all at meetings of the Roanoke county board.
#3 So, suzie, when is the 10 Commandments issue going to become this huge, pivotal issue in the presidential election? You promised us. We’re still waiting.
I already told you, I explained the Giles situation at length, but Dan deleted it. Take it up with him.
OG,
What is she to do with this election? Is she going to vote for a Mormon who she doesn’t consider to be a true christian or is she going to vote for a black man who she doesn’t think should be president because he is black?
First, a Mormon is a million times better than a godless atheist communist. Secondly, I supported Herman Cain as did the Tea Party, and he’s 100% black. You only support 0bama because he’s an acceptable black to you. (i.e. half white, talks white, acts white).
No one has ever been able to keep me from praying except me! My prayer life includes praying to get up on 581 from Orange Ave.. My God is so great He can care about little things like that and about the big things like the cancer of friend. I don’t look for permission to talk to Him from anyone.
Dan:
22.”The Holy Church of Concealed Carry?
I nominate John Wilburn as the bishop”
I accept your nomination so long as I can stash my mini revolver in a band on the funny hat and conceal my Glock underneath it!
Suzie:
“First, a Mormon is a million times better than a godless atheist communist.”
I agree. How would you feel about a communist Mormon versus a capitalist atheist?
#27 You told us something or other — and it hasn’t happened. The !0 Commandments case is a non-factor, putting the lie to whatever it was you said. No wonder you won’t repeat it.
“First, a Mormon is a million times better than a godless atheist communist. ”
….but still not good enough to get into Heaven, though, right? I mean, aren’t he and the atheist both going to end up in Hell?
I am still wondering why the DNC shunned a Catholic Cardinal but is allowing muslim terrorist sympathizers’ a special “prayer” event before their convention.
sharia law for all? Is that the next mantra for democrats?
Great idea for the party of “women” if they want to be beheaded for showing their ankles… (there goes the entire abortion debate).
Go figure…
13 Suns:
“….but still not good enough to get into Heaven, though, right? I mean, aren’t he and the atheist both going to end up in Hell?”
If Suzie makes it to Heaven, I’ll svae you a seat in Hell, 13 Suns.
Put me down for a 6 pack in he’ll. Cold.
Speaking as a godless atheist communist, I feel compelled to ask why a Mormon would be 1 million (Austin Powers voice in my head) times better than me. Simply because …. well, why?
Also, for what little it’s worth, I think the feelings held by Mr. Church are sincerely held. I disagree profoundly with his view point but don’t think his action can be credited to political cynicism. For him, this is truly a rough spot.
To try to better understand my opponents, I try to imagine a country where religion is somehow legally allowed to push itself into our government affairs. I find that idea so anathema, I don’t have words adequately strong to describe the anger I would feel.
I imagine it’s perceived the same way by Mr. Church and others in our community. Although I disagree, I imagine they feel religion or god is being pushed out. He actually has my sympathies.
Still, any god that needs that much defending probably isn’t really godlike to begin with.
I think Butch Church should read the Bible.
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6)But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (7)And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. (8)Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. – Matthew 6.5-8 NASB
@#38: And that’s Jenga!
aka, “I rest my case.”
aka, “take that, beyotchezz”
aka, “Good morning, good afternoon, and goodnight.”
aka, “I got a whole six-pack … I won’t think twice about opening another can on ya!”
aka, “Really? Is this what is being done in My name? Did you learn nothing in remembering me?”
Scott M:
37.”Speaking as a godless atheist communist, I feel compelled to ask why a Mormon would be 1 million (Austin Powers voice in my head) times better than me. Simply because …. well, why?”
Scott M, just reading your post confirms the same problem I see every time with these cases. You, as most atheists, are very intelligent. Generally, folks who have leased or given over their mind to a deity are not as intelligent, by definition. Therefore, you’ll never get a satisfactory answer from them.
Nope, suzie won’t talk about her 10 Commandments prediction. Because she was SOOOO wrong.
Probably still thinks the Democratic Convention is four days, too.
Re: Comment by gdad — August 31, 2012 @ 8:30 am
Nope, suzie won’t talk about her 10 Commandments prediction. Because she was SOOOO wrong.
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And he/she has never re-posted anything, either. She/he says it once and if folk don’t get it he/she lets it drop. Very consistent that way.
[satire font off]
Until you really decided to want to understand the property rights issue behind UN Agenda 21 and one of it’s proxies, ICLEI, you will remain ignorant on the subject. I encourage you to educate yourself on the UN Agenda 21/ICLEI issue through experts on the issue, Tom DeWeese and Rosa Koire:
Tom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoyxnkfGANo
Rosa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-qLUQlmBk4
Rosa Koire is a gay liberal democrat who had a wake up call with this issue years ago in her hometown of Santa Rosa, California. See her biography at the bottom of this webpage:
http://www.postsustainabilityinstitute.org/presenter-bios.html
We aren’t finished with Roanoke County’s involvement with ICLEI and are in for the long haul as long as UN Agenda 21′s socialist tentacles remain.
Roanoke Board support of ICLEI demonstrates the power of Junk Science. The disciples of Al Gore proudly display their ignorance about CO2 & pretend to save the planet. The board with a narrow majority play politics trying to act like they are weighing both sides. I get the feeling the board will play this role as they zone Roanoke county residents into ICLEI approved housing areas with higher taxes for those out of the zone. The uninvolved uninformed “save the planet” residents get what they deserve. Church & Elswick are not the issue, it’s the other three, the majority with their alternate agendas to fear.