A labor union-dissing ‘Post of the Day’
Grafic by Dan
Note from Dan: NU Scott is a small business owner who posted this provocative mini-rant on the Labor Day OPEN thread. I didn’t want it to get buried there.
Labor unions and minimum wage actually devalue labor. When each person is paid the same rate simply because they are hired it leaves no room to compensate the high achievers with better pay and benefits.
If you are rewarded simply because you stay at a job long enough the true producers pay the price. There is no money left to honor the WORKER because you have had to pay the LABOR for being at the job. There is something inherently wrong with a worker filing a grievance on a supervisor who is helping them get their work done.
As a business owner I pride myself in paying a wage that is reflective of the performance of the job but also within the ability of the business to stay healthy. My top performers are not paid as high as they should be because the low performers are required to be paid a minimum just to show up.
As a worker it made me madder than a wet hen to see loafers who I knew were paid more than me, do half the work I did. The day of the union is over and we need to understand that minimum wage is not doing what the romantics that created the law envisioned.
Businesses will rise to the occasion and pay top performers top wages and conversely pay low performers what they are really worth if left to make the wage decision themselves. Workers who are dependable and actually work will find those employers and stay with them because they are treated with respect and fairness.
People who do not live within their means will always have trouble making the month regardless of how much money they are paid.
September 3, 2012 - 1:30 PM
Cow manure is best left in the barnyard or spread on fields to fertilize crops.
Well said Scott. The days of “everyone gets a trophy” must stop. Paying on performance, quality of work, and level of importance should be a no-brainer. For now, America still lends us these choices to choose where we work and how we get paid. Let’s hope it stays that way.
In your idealized world, all business owners are pure and good and true. That’s not what I’ve seen during my lifetime of work.
Scott, Wow, not many of us could have said it any better. Ol’ gdad acts like he was one of the ones paid for just “showing up”. i bet gdad would spread whatever minimum he thought could get away with spreading…
Scott, do you really think the harder workers do not realize they gave up something in voting in a Union. In order to get fair wages, they had to forfeit some of the incentives for additional labor for the good of the labor force. It was the only way to force the employer into paying a reasonable wage for services rendered. You yourself state that you base wages on the health of the company. The health of the company is not the employees’ problem; the company’s health is the owner’s problem. The owner is responsible for having a company that can afford the FMV of labor. If you cannot, then you must change the company to afford the labor. You are kidding yourself about your company otherwise. You could always give some ownership as compensation to the employees to give them the concerns of ownership.
You see, that has always been the problem with under capitalized businesses. The owner seeks to have labor work for less than FMV to cover for the lack of capital or income to support the business. That’s fine if the labor agrees to it readily and openly, but they are entitled (if they help build the company for less than FMV) to require concessions from the owner in future wages, ownership, or other benefits. Otherwise, you are stealing from the labor.
“Labor unions and minimum wage actually devalue labor.”
Yes, of course they do. You’d just love to pay everyone two dollars an hour, wouldn’t you?
NU Scott, is certainly entitled to his opinion but it’s important to point out that what may be true for businesses individually may not be true for society as a whole. For example, I’ve heard it said when a business is having a hard time it may make sense for them to lay off people but when all the businesses do it at the same time, you have a recession/depression.
So it depends what the goal is. Are we debating what works best for NU Scott’s particular business or are we debating what works best for society?
I still don’t understand why NU Scott doesn’t just replace his underperforming minimum-wage workers with high-performing ones. Or is that too much of a hassle for him?
Perhaps he’d be better off if he adopted a business model with NO employees, and ALL independent contractors. Then, assuming he could precisely quantify their “production,” he could pay them X% of whatever they produced, with no benefits whatsoever, much reduced payroll administration expenses, and no minimum-wage outrages.
In the early 80s that’s what the messenger service I worked for in DC did. When I started there, I was paid about $8/hour (which was way above minimum wage). The job offered health insurance (at a low-benefits level) & I was covered by worker’s comp, and the employer’s liability policy. We got paid vacation, holidays, and paid sick leave, too. We were provided uniforms and radios.
Not too much later the owners changed the model. All messengers became independent contractors. We bought the uniforms, rented the radios, had no insurance or workers comp. My pay was 50 percent of what the company billed for my work. The more I carried, the more I made.
My gross income jumped from $64/day to $100/day. But I had to pay self-employment tax on that, and I had no coverage if I was injured in what was a fairly dangerous job, and there were no benefits.
No doubt his business could stay “healthy” if he paid his staff $2/hr. So what? If you can’t afford to pay your workers, you’re not really in business.
In my opinion, the best business model is a co-op. A business in which the employees of the companies are all co-owners of the company and vice versa. The owners of the company are also the workers.
The fact NU Scott has employees instead of co-workers would probably go a long way to explaining why he has business problems.
hey dano, two questions:
1. why is union membership falling? to hear you and beason tell it, “unions are great”.
2. why is Wisconsin throwing off the shackles of public unionization…if it’s been so good to the way of life in Wisconsin, why are they doing that?
oh, darn i thought of two more questions..please bear with me…
3. why did obama insist on stiffing his union benefactors by holding the democrat convention in non-union Charlotte, NC? the BIG BUCKS which could have lined the pockets of union thugs would have flowed right back to obama.
4. why did obama sue to stop Boeing from building a plant in non-union South Carolina…when he himself insisted on holding the democrat convention in a non-union state?
My post at 6 was flippant. It’s been my experience most bosses aren’t as altruistic as NU Scott.
I spent over 30 years in supervision and I know that low performers should be trained so they can be good performers. If they don’t become good performers why are you keeping them on payroll. One of two things are wrong here, either you need to get rid of the low performers or your company needs to get rid of the management not doing their job.
Labor Unions…The US Postal Service.( how are they doing) In 1973, I had a job paying $5.73 per hour. 18 year old with no skill other than I a could read zip codes and sort mail. Did get to move the cage (handle all money from other 240 zip codes)A government program that allowed student to help fund their college education.
I had a REDNECK supervisor promoted only by seniority and the union. One night I asked the supervisor if I could leave early to go to a party..(my hours were 6pm to 10pm). “as far as I am concerned you can working all f…ing night). Another postal assistant (Pretty young girl,midriff sweater) asked the supervisor if she could get off early to go to same party. “You can leave now if you like”. She did.
2AM in the morning working in the “cage” a supervisor asked “Nelson why are you still here” and told him the “supervisor” told me I could work all night so why not. I was making $5.73 an hour in 1973 and I need a car..(dad ain’t buying me one..had to pay for my own).
Because I worked 4 HOURS MORE then my schedule
THE UNION RULES were the USPS was going to have to PAY EVERYONE on both the 2nd and 3rd Shift 4 hours of overtime because I WORKED 4 hours over my schedule.
The issue became a HUGE scandal. The USPS Postal Inspectors, the Union reps from Richmond came in and finally..
WE ARE GOING TO A HEARING IN PHILADELPHIA..I was to fly to PHL, PAID for my time all for 4 HOURS over my 4 hour shift..(8 hour day..wow a novel concept today)
TODAY the USPS is going bankrupt…based on UNION rules.
A case in point!
THE USPS advertises DIRECT MAIL ON TV. I had several small business owners call me about this and asked me if I could help them. They knew I was unemployed and thought I could help them and I could get some extra income.
I WENT to the Cave Spring,South Roanoke and MAIN POST OFFICE….NO ONE HAD A CLUE about DIRECT MAIL…yet it was advertised ON TV.
I call Congressman Bob Goodlatte’s office…(they know me) about ALL OF the TAXPAYER dollars BAILING OUT the USPS.
I got a call from Richmond USPS representative. I asked him about lack of training and knowledge of an ADVERTISED PRODUCT from the USPS.
“The postal employees have a lot on their plate and all of the new products”.
My quote…don’t ADVERTISE until you know what you are doing.
GOVERNMENT UNIONS!…No complaints about earning a decent wage but the MINIMUM WAGE in 1973 was $1.65..maybe $2.00 and I was making $5.72..would have done the job for $2.25!
.the PO job sucked..I had OH/MI mail and hated the NW checks that came out every two weeks but BOVINE SCATOLOGY and RIGID RULES..
EVERYONE IS OFFEND and NO INCENTIVE to BE BETTER!
I wish I could just say that it was all just the hooey it is, but many business owners do feel that way about their workers and many would indeed love to get away with paying some people even less than minimum wage and no benefits at all and the ones they like (or who have them snowed), a lot more than they are worth with better benefits. Owning a business does not make you smart. It never has and it never will.
What idiots
Steve Nelson, something tells me that for you, every job “sucked.”
Ya’ll need to know that capital M Matt used to post here as Dublin Dawg.
“18 year old with no skill other than I a could read zip codes and sort mail.”
So what happened.
eve Nelson, something tells me that for you, every job “sucked.”
Comment by Dan Casey — September 3, 2012 @ 5:42 pm
Is this your only comment based on union rules…shallow and pathetic. It was a BORING JOB and I was only 18.
THE ONLY THING THAT SUCKED was UNION RULES.
I spent 17 years with PIEDMONT AIRLINES…started at the bottom and worked my way up to senior management prior to USAIR buying us. I was successful in the financial biz.
You asked me to defend my positions with facts and I do yet I get snide remarks or insults.
Dan you work for the Roanoke Times.
YOUR paper allegedly report the news…(how are the subscription renewals) If it were not for the Local sports, obituaries and classifieds you would be out of business.
I am here to HELP YOUR RATING!
I am here to CHALLENGE you, your company and the lack of journalistic integrity.
I suggest you, the RT and ‘drive by media” are a propaganda machine for a FASCIST PRESIDENT and LACK the journalistic integrity to DO YOUR JOB.
I and believe me…(millions more then me) are awakened but we are the silent majority. We carry a big stick!
I would suggest The Roanoke Times, you and anyone else you want to bring to have a ECONOMIC SUMMIT.
I defend my comments and facts…yet juvenile response!
The GIG is up…
Steve Nelson, I mean this sincerely:
You wouldn’t know a fact if it hit you in the head.
Bernadette Gorin?
Names are “facts,” dude. And you’re standing by that one. Jeesh.
Dan…there was no incentive to work at the USPS. Just show up and get a check..
Grateful for $5.73 an hour in 1973. I was 18 AND OVER PAID based on UNION RULES. I would have done that for $2.25.
I worked at Roanoke Fruit and Produce on Sat/Sun after football games for DATE MONEY.
I MOWED yards for $1.15, 1.25 and $2.50 (RICH GUY in da hood)
I started at Piedmont Airlines earning $11,700 a year. After graduating from college working on my internship for MPA I got a part time job for Piedmont. I came home and told dad I got a part time job…his response was “part time son…no full time”.
I loved it yet you do not get the point and all you HAVE is some ignorant response.
Pathetic
Steve Nelson, I mean this sincerely:
You wouldn’t know a fact if it hit you in the head.
Bernadette Gorin?
Names are “facts,” dude. And you’re standing by that one. Jeesh.
Nit picking..
Berandine Dohrn. AND I will stand by this one. (spelling..got me again..damn)
Only game you have but you can not defend the facts.
Desperation to defend Democrat President Barrack Hussein Obama!
At Sandi Saunders…good grief, you all spout off…which business owners? And Dan, I have friends in a variety of unions (one is BIG One up in Covington)that tell me that they will not work themselves out of a job (per instructions from supervisors) and they actually have a lot of “downtime” each shift (and as he tells me, quite proudly, to play Rummy). Unions were important in the bygone days, when there was little to no oversight of labor practices, however nowadays, no. Labor Unions benefit the big bosses (internally) and are detrimental to businesses remaining in the US.
Dan…I can feel the love!
8.I still don’t understand why NU Scott doesn’t just replace his underperforming minimum-wage workers with high-performing ones. Or is that too much of a hassle for him?
I wondered the same thing. If he has people working for him who don’t pull their weight, why bother paying them anything, and just replace them with better employees? Of course by that logic, given that he said he can;t pay his best employees more because of the lackluster ones, if he has too many good employees, they would all get paid even less, by the same logic he just stated. Sounds like perhaps there’s more than meets the eye there…
10.In my opinion, the best business model is a co-op. A business in which the employees of the companies are all co-owners of the company and vice versa. The owners of the company are also the workers.
Scott M, I worked for one of those companies…everyone was a part owner. It took years of service to gain larger shares of the company ownership, but it was a really nice setup. There was a general egalitarian atmosphere there. The CEO and other executives got paid about 2.5-3x more than the average employee, not 250x like in some other companies. And we had room for additional profit sharing, bonuses, overtime, etc to take the pay and benefits even higher. And, they were 100% open-book…every bit of the company financials were open and available for any employee to see. Nothing was hidden, and everyone could attend the Board of Directors’ meetings.
#16 I agree, Matt. All of those who think if the minimun wage is done away with that business owners out of the goodness of their hearts will pay all workers a decent wage, are indeed idiots.
Owners take advantage, as do unions. Unions are substantially responsible for improvement in worker rights and working conditions, as is government labor law. That being said, businesses need to stay in business. The balance is often tricky. In today’s world of shareholders demanding ever increasing profits, labor suffers, perhaps unfairly. My father’s generation could reasonably expect to work an entire career for one company. That is no more. So what does that tell the newest generation of employees?
I love reading comments about how “business” should operate, from liberals who have no concept about running a business.
I particularly like the, if they don’t produce get rid of them comments. Trying to replace someone these days almost takes an act of congress, not to mention the unemployment folks and lawyers; even in the “non-union” states.
I could go on a 300 word “screed” but Dan might get offended…
“18 year old with no skill other than I a could read zip codes and sort mail.”
So what happened.
Comment by Kristen — September 3, 2012 @ 6:00 pm
I left to attend college. No government assistance and even my mom criticized me for quitting a good paying job. You can work for 30 years and get a retirement at AGE 55…I AM 57.
I was not satisfied sorting mail for a wage, union rules and waste of my talents. JUST CURIOUS about the world and not just a job.
The rest is history…Did get a degree in Public Administration and was to become a county/city manager…Living in Boston I was invited to Harvard Business School by a buddy who graduated from there HBS with honors to come over to on my days off. I would go over there (tues/wed…my days off) and SIT in the classes.
This changed my mind about government and capitalism. I enrolled at their night school while working full time studying Business Administration and Economics.
Managed a $200M portfolio.
More exciting then sorting mail and zip codes.
Mom is still mad…Her dad (1896-1995) retired from NW (1920-1960) and ga gold watch but HELL of a retirement plan…( loved to see him on weekends and he would give us some cabbage leaves back in the sixties..he had a coffee can filled with quarters and one hell of a garden)
My issues are with Dan Casey and the Roanoke Times and Dan’s article on Democrat President Barrack Hussein Obama and the speech on 7/13/2012.
He accused the outcry as OBAMA SABOTEURS article.
The implications are someone is trying to destroy Democrat Barrack Hussein Obama’s speech as an attack on the PRESIDENT.
This is so far from the facts but THE AGENDA and TONE of the speech.
This was a speech that could have been given BY Mussolini,MARX,Lenin and based on the HISTORY of Democrat President Barrack Hussein Obama’s CHOICE of friends, Bernadine Dorhyn (sp) Bill Ayers, (killed NYC COPS and tried to blow up Pentagon..regrets he wanted more)..Reverend JERIMIAH WRIGHT..(suppport from REVS..Jackson, Sharpton…can not call them REVZ…JUST RACE baiters)
This Election is not about race…THE LEFT wants it to be…only game they have left and WHY the LEFT nominated BARRACK HUSSEIN OBAMA thinking no MAJORITY would complain or STAND UP because of THE HISTORY…
BOVINE SCATOLOGY..(can not cuss on this blog..General Norman Swartzkoff gave me this word)
We are way beyond the RACE CARD..
There are several outlets for information but contend the Roanoke Times has an agenda. My history with them goes back since over 10 years.
Gotta go…watching the HOKIES!
mike O, by all mean, write a 300-word screed about how business owners have no rights, and can never fire anyone without a big hassle. And then cry me a river.
Your screed won’t be true, of course. Virginia is an employed-at-will state. It’s the law of the land that an employer can fire any employee for almost any reason. And slacking on the job is one of those reasons. Being fired for slacking would be “for cause,” btw. “For cause” firings don’t affect the level of unemployment premiums employers pay, so long as you give them a couple of specific warnings. Is that too much of a hassle for you?
And you if fire someone because you don’t like their eye color, you just pay a little higher in unemployment premiums.
Sure, fired employees can sue. If you fire an employee because she resisted your sexual demands, and she can prove it, that’s gonna cost you. And it should. If you fire someone because of their race, and they can prove it, that’s may cost you too. And that should, too. But the answer to that is to not sexually harass employees, or discriminate them on the basis of race. (You can discriminate against them if they’re gay, though).
But employers can sue them, too. Anybody can sue anyone else for anything. That doesn’t necessarily mean they can win.
Dan, I am flattered by the choice of the Post of the Day and I inadvertantly placed an “NU” in front of my name. You have my email so please give me a shout. I would love to sit down and talk with you about your questions to me over a cup of joe. I did not post to have a mud slinging political discussion or to create a negative discussion on labor unions. This issue is beyond party lines. I do think it is a little mean spirited to call my opinion a “rant”. I have worked in many fields as a union and non-union worker. I have been what I consider to be successful at every level of employment from newly hired to tenured management. I am what most people would consider the average American who wants to make my situation better and also help other people do the same, but on my own and accepting the risk that comes with doing it on my own.
For the record to all who have posted and have assumed. Both of my businesses are healthy and none of my workers are paid minimum wage.I would like to hire a few HS students to help with some mundane tasks that would also introduce them to some very marketable skills in the work force.(Some positions and the people who are needed to fill those position do not need to be paid $7.00 an hour to do them) The tasks required of these positions should not demand the current minimum wage so I will forego that and do the tasks myself as an owner. I bought the businesses and both were declining and failing and I, with the help of my employees, have turned them around and have seen growth every year since the acquisitions.
I will not divulge what my businesses are but Dan you can see by the email address. Please grant me the grace of not divulging that information if you accept my offer to meet. (Or if you do not accept my offer!
mike o,
I’m the CEO of a 100 employee not for profit. It’s my second gig at that level. I’m also the chairman of a family corporation which operates a 640 acre grain farm.
I have to deal with budgets every day. In the 6 years of my current position at the not for profit, we’ve managed to develop a contingency fund in excess of $3 million. We’ve done that through very tight budget management and having high expectations of every employee. Non performing programs were eliminated and new programs have been added. Employees know that if they don’t produce they will be encourage to seek employment elsewhere. We deal with federal and state regulations each & every day. We just went through our annual audit and for the 6th year in a row, we had no findings.
As Chairman of the family corporation which operates the family farm, I am less involved,but nonetheless responsible to the extended family for the successful operation of the farm. We’ve been profitable for more years than I can count. This year will be a challenge because of the extended drought we’ve experienced. The farm has less than 10 employees and they are paid based upon performance.
SuzieQ says I am a liberal. I don’t really believe I am,but I’m certainly more moderate than she appears to be. Your suggestion that those of us who hold different views than you do is a large stinking pile.
Steve Nelson,
Bill Ayers didn’t kill any New York City cops. That’s another “fact” for which there is absolutely no basis. Your “facts” are bad jokes, bub.
NU Scott
I put the NU there, to differentiate you from many other Scotts on this board. I emailed you about this, fyi.
Don’t worry, I’m not going to disclose your business.
Just checked the email. Thanks Dan, let’s meet sometime.
Dan you are a reporter from the ROANOKE TIMES.
Did BILL AYERS not try to BLOW UP THE PENTAGON..
You can not defend any issue and YOU are an employ of the Roanoke Times guaranteed FREEDOM OF THE PRESS under The United States Constitution.
SORRY…BILL AYER’s BLEW up a NYC POLICE STATION..
Bring it on…BUT I do not want a bs blog posting..
ME…YOU AND THE ROANOKE TIMES…and ANYONE ELSE
ANY PUBLIC FORUM
I am UNEMPLOYED…NO “KOCK BROTHERS” Rush,Hannity…etc..
This is a challenge TO YOUR OBAMA SABOTEURS REPORT…
Give me a date..a time..anytime anyplace!
I contend you report to ignorance!
“You see, that has always been the problem with under capitalized businesses. The owner seeks to have labor work for less than FMV to cover for the lack of capital or income to support the business. That’s fine if the labor agrees to it readily and openly, but they are entitled (if they help build the company for less than FMV) to require concessions from the owner in future wages, ownership, or other benefits. Otherwise, you are stealing from the labor.”
Comment by Richard J Beason, CPA
Richard I sure hope you are not encouraging your clients who own businesses to spend all of thier cashflow on labor. Practicing this will almost always require layoffs during lean times due to lack of capital. We prefer to use the flow of cashflow to keep a steady workforce who can count on a regular paycheck during the ebb of cashflow.
By the way, minimum wage eliminates the concept of Fair Market Value for labor. When someone outside of the situation decides what a person should be paid for the work demanded it is not using Fair Market Value. Fair Market Value is determined by what you can get done by having several different people tell you what they will do it for. Or in the case of hiring, showing the public what the job entails and telling them what YOU feel like the job should pay to start and letting them decide if they want to do the job for that rate. If you feel like the job should pay no more than $5.00 an hour to start and there is an individual who agrees and wants the job why should it pay $7.25 an hour because someone 200 miles up the road says so?
0bama was a good friend of the terrorist Ayers. Odd the MSM had no interest in that connection. Odd they had no interest in Biden’s plagiarism which forced him out of the 1988 campaign. But boy they obsess over ‘macaca’, ‘potatoe’, and a guy’s marathon time.
You’d think the minimum wage earners would jump at the chance to wash the owner’s cadillac, after work, on their own time. Ungrateful whiners.
The more I listen to this guy, the more I’m hearing “I got mine and to hell with you.” It’s called a living wage, Scott, it’s a cost of doing business. Profits are one thing, obscene profits quite another, it’s what brought this country to it’s knees. You’re just another business owner who doesn’t want to pay his help, regardless of how you couch it.
Art Hill:
“It’s called a living wage…”
I’ve always been intrigued by the idea that the business owners must pay a minimum wage and has to be all or nothing in hiring. Whereas, the business owner himself can legally live well below that same minimum wage in the name of making payroll.
Would it be better to cut unemployment in half and hire folks for $6.00 an hour? It’s not a living, but it’s better than nothing.
Steve Nelson,
You wrote, Bill Ayers “killed NYC COPS.”
And you wrote he was married to “Bernadette Gorin.”
And you wrote: “Democrat President Clinton lowered taxes and we had balance budget.”
And you wrote: “BHO graduated from Harvard LAW TO BE A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER.”
And you wrote: Obama was a “guest lecturer” at the University of Chicago Law School.”
And you wrote (and this is the really good part): “I stand by my facts.”
Fact: Ayers killed no NYC cops.
Fact: Ayers wife’s first name is Bernadine.
Fact: Ayer’s wife’s last name is Dohrn.
Fact: Clinton raised federal income taxes on the richest 1 percent, and it helped balance the budget.
Fact: Obama was a community organizer before he went to Harvard Law. After his graduation, he was hired by the University of Chicago, where he was a lecturer for 12 years. He did do a 6-month stint running a voter registration drive after law school. But he notion that he went to law school to become a community organizer is made up Obama-hater horse hockey. He was a community organizer BEFORE he went to law school.
Steve, stuff like this is why I say you wouldn’t know a fact if it hit you in the head. With your words here, you sound someone has programmed you to ignore truth and swallow anti-Obama fiction.
If you were honest you would simply admit this is true and go slink off in shame.
“Would it be better to cut unemployment in half and hire folks for $6.00 an hour? It’s not a living, but it’s better than nothing.”
John Wilburn,
Do you know what a depressionary spiral is? Cutting the minimum wage by 17 percent is a great way to put us in one, or to further exacerbate the one we may already be in.
You’re in the real estate business. You really want that?
“It’s not a living, but it’s better than nothing.”
Oh puhleese, John, I’m a small business owner myself, do you honestly believe we live below the minimum wage just to make payroll? Listen to what Scott is saying, one breath says all his employees make more than minimum but the next says school kids aren’t worth the cost. Minimum wage exists for a reason, and it’s been the bane of the Right as long as I’ve been alive. IMHO, it’s too low as it is, there have got to be some bootstraps somewhere. And don’t get me started on unions…
PROVE he went to Harvard danny…lets see that !! I mean I dont see any evidence he actually went to school there so lets see it !
yesh sure like he attend for 20 years and learn a lot from racist white hater wright that screams gd America….of course his drunk wife beater daddy was his hero !!! Even his brother George says so.
The more I listen to this guy, the more I’m hearing “I got mine and to hell with you.” It’s called a living wage, Scott, it’s a cost of doing business. Profits are one thing, obscene profits quite another, it’s what brought this country to it’s knees. You’re just another business owner who doesn’t want to pay his help, regardless of how you couch it.
The reality is it’s the minimum wage folks who have the “I got mine, and to hell with you” attitude. Sure they have THEIR jobs, but because of the artificially high wage, so many of their poorer brethren can’t get hired.
Time to look into the damn mirror.
Oh puhleese, John, I’m a small business owner myself
I believe Poodle calls himself a horticulturalist or a farmer. I guess he weather’s always sunny and warm in that basement.
Would it be better to cut unemployment in half and hire folks for $6.00 an hour? It’s not a living, but it’s better than nothing.
You’re correct in principle, but don’t name ANY artificial wage. Let the market determine the wage. Why the leftwing wants to cut the poorest out of the workforce is beyond reason. They are cold and heartless.
If it’s “not a living” how is it “better than nothing”? Spending your day toiling away for some guy just in order to NOT support yourself and family?
Theres nothing new with this guy. He doesn’t want to pay his workers. I’ll say again…if you can’t afford the employees it takes to make your business run, you’re not in business.
39. NU Scott – I appreciate the advice. But, I have been preaching cash flow for decades. Cash is crucial to the operations of any business hence my comments on operating capital.
Hence the tough choices in business, do I hire more employees to get the jobs done faster, do I push for higher productivity and will that hurt quality, can I grow fast enough to pay for the new employees, can I manage a larger staff? Every businessman must know the answer to these questions.
As for the minimum wage and FMV, as with any regulation there is a trade off. Yes, the minimum wage stifles employment at the bottom, however, it also protects employers from taking advantage of those at the bottom. A trade off that our representatives believes is weighted toward fairness. There are arguments as to how it affects the economy both good and bad; however, the studies again show that overall minimum wage helps more than it hurts.
#40 Odd that suzie obsesses over a dead liberal movie or rock star who might have had intercourse outside of marriage and/or taken a few drugs, but worships a Romney supporter who has fathered 7 children by 5 women and had affairs with a lot more women than that, including living for 14 years with a woman married to another man.
#16 I see that DD’s posting abilities haven’t improved any.
“Grateful for $5.73 an hour in 1973. I was 18 AND OVER PAID based on UNION RULES. I would have done that for $2.25.”
Not for nothing, SteveNelson, but that job you would have been happy to do for $2.25/hr? Today that translates into $11.95 hr. I’m sure many people would be more than happy to work for 11.95/hr. Unfortunately, even the crappy $7.25/hr minimum in our ‘business friendly’ little state is too much for some of our “small business owners” to stomach.
And please, stop talking about Harward. Just stop.
#47 Uhh, pammalalala, if he were lying about something as elemental as going to Harvard, both McCain and Rmoney would have brought it up. Do you think they’re so dumb they would have let that slide? Don’t think much of your candidates, do you?
Dan:
“Do you know what a depressionary spiral is? Cutting the minimum wage by 17 percent is a great way to put us in one, or to further exacerbate the one we may already be in.”
Dan, the market decided what houses were worth, the banks decided how much they would loan people (based in large part on selling the loans), and the people decided how much risk they would accept in taking the loans. Sure, one person with more and another with nothing helps me since I can’t sell to two people, each lacking enough to buy. I guess what you would rather see is one minimum wage worker that does enough to justify his or her value and one person with nothing.
This would be an alternative to either making enough or welfare and giving both work.
Okay, you’re right. Minimum wage it is. We’ll hire the best candidate available that can justify their pay, but the rest don’t get a check of nearly same amount for nothing.
Art Hill, I will and have lived very lean to meet my obligations including working for below minimum wage if that’s what it takes. I’ve put my money where my mouth is.
There has to be point at which people do or they don’t perform. The safety net is all people are guaranteed anymore. Many work it right into their plan. I disagree with raising the minimum wage for the purpose of giving people a bonus to get off of welfare. I say we roll up about half of the safety net. Minimum wage will look better than living under a bridge to some people.
Kristen:
“Theres nothing new with this guy. He doesn’t want to pay his workers. I’ll say again…if you can’t afford the employees it takes to make your business run, you’re not in business.”
And if you are required to pay people more than they are worth to the business, you’ll go out of business. I only want to hire people who are worth it, let me do that.
By the way, you people have no beef with me. I cannot afford a staff person and work a good 70-80 hours a week on average to cover all of the BS that I shouldn’t have to do; my business would be better off if I didn’t. All of the agents are paid commission; they’re performance-based and perform they do.
I guess what you guys are saying is that a pulse is worth minimum wage regardless of how sorry someone is.
JohnW, no employers makes job offers with a gun to their head. Don’t hire people who can’t perform. $7.25 isn’t all that much..what exactly does one have to do to be “worth” $7.25 an hour?
As for living under a bridge…working for minimum isn’t getting anyone off the streets. Do the math.
The Right is always bitching about illegal immigration but their “fair market value” is the root cause. Go figure.
Ron May,
I have no quarrel that you are good at what you do, you sound very successful.
However, I see no post from you above my comment. Therefore I am not sure why you would take any offense.
I would not be overly concerned that Suzie considers you a liberal; I do not agree with a lot of what she posts so she may also consider me a liberal.
Dan,
Surely, your “technical analysis” of what “is”, trumps my real “experience” in these matters.
That must be the reason there are so few employment law attorneys in this state…lol
You have made my job very easy…next time I have to deal with one of these issues I will just have the person give you a call so you can tell him/her “you can’t do that” instead of having to jump thru legal and regulatory hoops. Surely that is how the “real” world works… lmao
mike O,
Like I noted before, anybody can sue over anything. But they can’t necessarily win.
You will never win an argument, here or anywhere else, that employment law in Virginia is stacked in the workers’ favor.
It sounds like you’d prefer a law prohibiting employees from suing, ever, for any reason.
Virginia makes it so easy to fire people, it is not even a sincere concern. What you apparently are trying to avoid is telling the truth or having to pay for unemployment insurance. You can fire someone for no reason at all, or you can say they were not performing as well as their co-workers, either way, they are gone. You might be judged in the wrong by the VEC if they insist they were doing their best, had no warnings, did as well as anyone else, etc. But you absolutely can fire anyone with little blowback. It is just false to say you cannot.