Russia: The other melting pot
Fort Ross, Calif., a National Historic Landmark, in 2005 | Introvet | Wiklimedia Commons
Earlier this month a delegation of Native Americans and U.S. park officials visited Russia to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the founding of Fort Ross. The Moscow Times had an article about it.
Fort Ross was Russia’s southernmost North American colony, located approximately 73 miles north of San Francisco. It served as a hub for Russian trappers and agriculture in the region along the Russian River in Sonoma Valley. The chief agricultural purpose was supplying the vast Russian colonies in Alaska. The Russians withdrew from the area by 1849, having outsourced the supply of foodstuffs for its Alaskan colonies to the Hudson Bay Company.
Typical of Russian colonial history, the relations between the Russians and the local Kashia Pomo indian tribe were relatively harmonious. Lester Pinola, A Kasia tribal elder, favorably compared the relations with Russians to the later relations with English-speaking colonists. “They didn’t force us to talk Russian. When the English came… [we] were forced to talk English, otherwise [we] were beaten.”
The Russians proactively engaged with the Kashia Pomo Indians. Records show that some Kashia women married Russians and returned to Russia. When smallpox and measles devasted American Indians throughout North America, it was a Russian doctor at Fort Ross who conducted the first vaccination program in California history. The Russians’ disease prevention policy also included quarantining ships that came from regions known to carry diseases for which the local Indian’s had no immunological defenses.
Of the great empires in world history, Russia’s relations and integration with non-Russian populations are exceptional. In fact, the roots of the Russian Empire go to the 9th century, when leading Russian princes invited the three Rurik brothers from Sweden to come and rule them using modern governing techniques.
The Rurik Dynasty lasted until the late 16th century, followed by the Romanov Dynasty. Catherine The Great was in fact a minor German Princess who married into the Romanov family, becoming Empress after murdering her weak husband. The great grandfather of Alexander Pushkin, the giant of 19th century poetry, was a black African “page” raised by Peter The Great.
Many of the key Bolshivek / Soviet leaders were not Russian either. Stalin and Beria were both Georgians who spoke Russian with an accent. Trotsky was Ukrainian; Dzerzhinsky, Polish. And today, it only takes a short walk in Moscow to see the large role that Asians play in Russian society, having come from the vast central Asian territories of the empire.
Further, the claims of rampant Russian anti-Semitism often repeated in the West do not mesh well with how many political and business leaders are Jewish. Trotsky and Dzerzhinsky were both Jewish. Lenin’s grandfather converted from Judaism to Christianity. Many of the so called Russian Oligarchs who became instant billionaires in the 1990s are also Jewish, including Roman Abramovich, Mikhail Fridman, Viktor Vekselberg, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Boris Berezovksy, and Vladimir Gusinsky.
It’s ironic that Russia had such a great impact on the 20th century American psyche, and yet Americans know so little about Russia. They know little about Russia’s rich contributions to science, the arts, education, and the European political order.
The Fort Ross 200th anniversary commemoration is a good opportunity for Americans to learn more about Russia’s inclusive culture. It is time to begin building better bridges between these two great melting pots.
September 26, 2012 - 6:00 AM
I’ve spent a lot of time in Northern California and had no idea of this. Thanks for the interesting info.
As the right wingers will shortly prove, some Americans need only to be told what to believe and the rest is magic. Having spent so many generations hating and fearing Russia, there is no other response some are capable of. Even Romney considers them “without question our No. 1 geopolitical foe“.
There are always more perspectives than one and quite often more right answers than one. Nations and cultures that last for centuries deserve to be studied and learning about more than just the “evil empire” aspect is productive, respectful and important. We go around the world teaching about how our nation is superior and expecting others to learn our history and learn from our history and our example. The idea that we can learn nothing of value from studying the total history and story of any nation is a self-inflicted wound.
Thanks for another good, thought provoking commentary!
Yes indeed!
A Sakhan (Yakutian) delegation from far N-E Siberia carves and erects two ‘serge’ (totem hitching posts) at Fort Ross, California, in 2012 to commemorate their ancestors’ work there: http://diaspora.sakhaopenworld.org/fort_ross_serge_4.html
Thanks for the blog, Dan. That was extremely interesting and enlightening. Very much appreciated. I’ll admit, I’m a history person, but I never knew the Russians inhabited so far down into continental North America. Shame on me for ignoring the West Coast faction of history.
Thanks for the history lesson, MarkJ!I enjoy history but knew little of this.
And thanks for the proper use of the term “ironic.”
OMG
Please tell me you are kidding. Did you miss the chapter on the 20,000 Polish officers murdered at Katyn? Ask ANYONE in Poland if the Russians treated them any better than we treated the Indians.
Do you think the East Germans liked being shot trying to escape over, under and through the Berlin wall.Watch “Lives of Others”. It was the best movie ever made about life behind the iron curtain. Tell me that is where you would want to live.
You imply that Americans forced immigrants to speak English when they came to America. The immigrants WANTED to learn English so that they could SUCCEED and provide for their families. Unlike every other wave of immigrants, we are now changing every aspect of our daily life to accomodate the language of our latest wave of immigrants. That is CRAZY and does nothing to appease people who hate America like you.
America is no longer a melting pot. Unfortunately, America has now become a mosaic.
#6 Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner in the contest for the first right winger to go bonkers on this thread. And little surprise — it’s terps!!!!
Hey Mark
The “Fort” photoed above has high protective walls and a watch tower. If the Russians had such a lovefest going on with the local Indians, why did did they take such extraordinary measures to protect themselves?
Nicolas#3 – fantastic photos. For those that can’t read Russian, I think you can run it through Google Translator. It is about 80% accurte, and most of the other 20% are obvious mistakes that you will catch on your own.
And finally, Mark, read “Undaunted Courage” about the Lewis and Clark trec. They got along great with the West Coast Indians without the need for a Fort. They explain in great length the difference in aggression between the Indian Tribes. It is ridiculous to isolate one Russian Fort surrounded by passive West Coast Indians and then present the notion that Russians have been benevolent colonialists. You would be laughed out of anyplace but this crazy blog.
So Terp#6 considers the Kashia Pomo Indians immigrants. Cool. I guess he also hasn’t read my recent essays posted on this blog regarding:
1. American School Of Warsaw
2. Modern American Immigration Policy.
Oh good grief, terps. He doesn’t “hate America”…he spends a lot of $$ to keep his kid in an American school!
“Hey Mark
The “Fort” photoed above has high protective walls and a watch tower. If the Russians had such a lovefest going on with the local Indians, why did did they take such extraordinary measures to protect themselves?”
Hey Terps, let’s go camping this weekend in the Alaska wilderness. I know a nice spot alongside a river where the salmon run. Don’t worry about the wildlife. Some of them are big, fast, ferocious and their teeth are huge, but they’re no bother!
#8 That was down right funny.
As to the story, I included myself in not being aware of how far Russia made forts in this part of the world. Now I will have to do some digging to find out more.
Mark Jurkevich, my apology for crediting DC and not you for the contribution.
As for the comment trying to justify the forced speech of English, it seems someone was in too much of a hurry to criticize and not comprehend the reading. It was the native ‘Indian’ tribe that was forced to speak the language of the immigrant English at the threat of brutality. Mark contrasted that with the immigrant Russians not feeling the compulsion to force their lifestyle on that of the local natives.
But then, what do facts matter, when you can be misguided so easily by irrational emotion?
@2- “There are always more perspectives than one and quite often more right answers than one.”
Exactly, so why bash others in your opening statement? Sorry because I’m “told” to hug my fellow Russian and drink some vodka and learn their history that I’m not immediately open to do so.
Dan
Please tell me that you don’t buy into this notion that the kind, benevolent Russians have a unique culture of peace and love while the Americans just force their immigrants to learn English.
I have read alot of crazy things on this blog, but we have gotten off into the far fringes of loonland now.
#16 I have a friend who went with Patch Adams over to Russia. He brought some America clowns to meet some Russia clowns. They went to a lot of Russia hospitals and performed for free.
It got me thinking maybe we need more clowns in the world and maybe we can get along a bit better.
My Mother wants to go to St. Petersburg because of how beautiful the city is.
Mark
Do you propose that Indians never should have learned English? Would Indians be better off now not learning English? Would we all be better off now if we spoke some Indian dialect and roamed the wilderness on horses?
No wonder Obama is winning. People in this country have lost their minds.
The “Fort” photoed above has high protective walls and a watch tower. If the Russians had such a lovefest going on with the local Indians, why did did they take such extraordinary measures to protect themselves?
BEARS BRO, BEARS. That’s why they are the UCLA Bruins.
Thank you for the pictures Nicholas Zvegintzov!
It’s amazing to me how easily threatened some people are. What could be the downside of learning something? Learning something about another country doesnt mean you “hate America”.
This is why we get laughed at.
Terps,
You must be having a bad morning. You seem unusually reactive today. You’re conflating Russians with communists, and with respect to the Cold War-era of your birth and upbringing, I can understand that. But it ignores the fact that the world didn’t begin when you first opened your eyes in 1958.
There have Russians in Russia for centuries. There have been communists in Russia for less than a century, and they they were in control for an even shorter period of time. Mark probably hates them more than you do.
Typical for Uptheriver, never mind that the right wingers here are so predictably negative, just slam me for saying it is coming. You will never get the point apparently.
Just for one second, think about it. Why is it that I could say that? Why is it never wrong to predict what the right wing response here will be? Is the problem with me knowing that or them being like that?
So, somebody first rails in favor of forcing native people to adopt the language of the immigrants that overrun their country in one post, then rails AGAINST the concessions currently made by Americans towards current immigrants in a post shortly following. Then, same poster reverts to railing AGAINST immigrants adopting the language and socioeconomic behavior of the country they’ve immigrated into?
‘Mark
Do you propose that Indians never should have learned English? Would Indians be better off now not learning English? Would we all be better off now if we spoke some Indian dialect and roamed the wilderness on horses?
No wonder Obama is winning. People in this country have lost their minds.’
Well, it’s pretty easy to see where logic does NOT reside…
“There have Russians in Russia for centuries. There have been communists in Russia for less than a century, and they they were in control for an even shorter period of time. Mark probably hates them more than you do.”
Communists? Aren’t they the people who came to power in the Russian Revolution? And wasn’t the Russian Revolution about the hatred of the “1%” and how government would equalize outcomes in life.
Why would Mark hate these people? They have the exact same beliefs as the libs on this blog. We call it “OWS”, “progressivism” and “liberalism”, but the ideology is the same and it leads us to the same place…statism that creates equal misery.
I hereby nominate crooked road for the “blog take down of the day.”
@25 – That I want to listen to what you say but you completely undermind the actual truth in your first sentence of the second paragraph with your first paragraph.
One could predict the same response of the left wingers or loony liberals or whatever the nickname du jour is.
Minus the undermining, you’re exactly right – “There are always more perspectives than one and quite often more right answers than one.”
Because one wants to hug and drink vodka with the Russians and another is a more skeptical doesn’t make either one wrong.
Only Americans conflate ignorance with virtue. Somehow here we got to a place where not having facility in a foreign language, thinking “Vienna” and “Venice” are interchangeable, and having no remote clue of the history of any other country (and barely even this one) is considered a mark of “exceptionalism”.
And Dan
Your arguing that Russians were pure and good before communism and turned evil for 70 years. But Americans have ALWAYS been predators who take advantage of Indians and immigrants. It is amazing how the people who live in by far, by any yardstick, the greatest country ever, look to corrupt and failed societies for guidance.
“And wasn’t the Russian Revolution about the hatred of the “1%”
The Russian aristocracy was considerably less than 1% of the population.
I’m beginning to believe all that I read about schools on this blog. The general ignorance is depressing.
“Communists? Aren’t they the people who came to power in the Russian Revolution? And wasn’t the Russian Revolution about the hatred of the “1%” and how government would equalize outcomes in life.
Why would Mark hate these people?”
Terps,
I’ll let Mark answer for himself on this. But it’s silly for you to assume, based on an article he wrote about Russian history, that he doesn’t believe in free markets, that he’s not in the 1% (I don’t know if he is or not) or that he’s a supporter of OWS.
We shouldn’t force them to assimilate into American society by making them learn English but we should write the Welfare forms in their language so they can assimilate into our American Welfare system.
“And Dan
Your arguing that Russians were pure and good before communism and turned evil for 70 years. But Americans have ALWAYS been predators who take advantage of Indians and immigrants. It is amazing how the people who live in by far, by any yardstick, the greatest country ever, look to corrupt and failed societies for guidance.”
Will somebody give Terps a handful of Xanax? I’ve got a column to write for Thursday’s paper. . .
Fascinating. I have heard of the Russian River in California because of the wines that are sourced there. But I had no idea how the name came about. Terps sounds a little nuts, doesn’t he?
“We shouldn’t force them to assimilate into American society by making them learn English but we should write the Welfare forms in their language so they can assimilate into our American Welfare system.”
Henry, you wrote that message in a foreign language. What is your fascination with Brits, anyway?
I wish you would write in American.
Dan, you have succeeded in making me respond to some of terps less flawed rants, above.
Firstly,most will agree that the colonial Russia period ended with the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. For simplicity, lets say that is when the Soviet era began. From the mid-1920s into the 1950s this horrible bloody era was run by Stalin (a Georgian, not a Russian), with the terror operated by Dzerzhinsky, the father of what became KGB (a Pole, not a Russian), and Beria who perfected the KGB internal terror methods (a Georgian, not a Russian). These 3 non-Russians killed about 20 million citizens that they ruled over.
And yes, as a direct outcome of the Molotov Riebbentrop pact (German/Russian), Stalin/Beria occupied eastern Poland and slaughtered about 20,000 of Polish aristorcracy and military officers. Those were two really bad Soviet Commmie Georgians! For what its worth, the damage inflicted on Poland by Germans in WW II was far worse.
I don’t think we should cut any slack for terps for his offensive comments based on poor reading of this essay and concluding that American Indians were immigrants. However, we can forgive terps for not reading my recent essay on American School of Warsaw. Had he read that he would know I live in Poland and have roots there. But it is funny when he challenges me to just ask anyone in Poland about how Russians treated them.
The feelings are actually quite good and generally speaking there is a feeling of Slavic brotherhood. Of course there are a few nationalist stirring the pot in a political party called PIS. If terps would fly into Warsaw national airport and take a taxi to down town, just as he enters the city, he will see on his right side a giant monument to the Soviet Army that liberated Poland from the Germans. After the war, although the Soviet Union was also completely broke, it was the Soviet army and labor that rebuilt Warsaw from scratch, including the amazing story of how the old town was replicated.
terps seems to really be stepping into it today. As Dan suggested – he is having a really bad day.
32.“And wasn’t the Russian Revolution about the hatred of the “1%”
The Russian aristocracy was considerably less than 1% of the population.
I’m beginning to believe all that I read about schools on this blog. The general ignorance is depressing.
Kristen
I’m glad you agree that both movements are about hating the rich and that we only differ on the number of rich that are being hated.
wow, terps, i’m with you! Well done sir.
ol’ dano and his pack of libs appear to have a distinct distaste for themselves and their own history as Americans. of course the russians let the natives speak in their native tongues, and contrasted that to what the American’s did, all the while flogging themselves along the way.
those same libs won’t refer to what hasan did to the Fort Hood soldiers as a terrorist act, nor to hasan himself as a terrorist. by NOT-doing so, it helps them to be able to self-flog to their bleeding hearts’ content…which of course, know no bounds.
This phenomenon of self-hatred reminds me of a former NFL player by the name of “HE HATE ME”….who was one of the strike-breakers back when the NFL players struck some years back, and “HE HATE ME” did well enough that he hooked onto the NO Saints for a year or so (i may not have all the facts exact, but i’m fairly close).
well, anyway, I’m reminded of “HE HATE ME” when I think of ol’dano and his minions…who should have as their moniker, “I HATE ME”.
Oh, enough with the assimilation already. There was a Polish language newspaper in Hamtramck (an enclave of Detroit) at least until the 1980′s. There may still be one for all I know. Does this mean the Poles did not assimilate? Not hardly. It takes time for any immigrant population to assimilate. Each wave of immigrants has had to overcome prejudices. (NINA once sttod for No Irish Need Apply, and I grew up with jokes that made fun of Polish people). And, by the way, if you are vehemently opposed to “illegal immigaration”, don’t expect help from either political party. I am sure that both parties have smart advisors who have run the numbers and concluded that illegal immigration is a net positive for the economy.
The amount of hatred and anger coming out on this thread is amazing. And its all guys blowing off this bile. They clearly are not getting enough champagne and sex.
You know what else is along the Russian River, right? Bohemian Grove, the swank summer camp where captains of industry get together each summer to drink and wander around naked in the woods and sacrifice pagan idols while they plot world domination.
Last year, a Roanoke Tea Party member laid this all out to the Roanoke County Board of Supervisors, with a straight face. He traced how the UN was a plot hatched at Bohemian Grove, which spawned Agenda 21, which spawned ICLEI — and how those drunk naked evildoers were planning to force every RoCo resident into cluster villages.
Henry Kissinger was a big Bohemian Grove guy…it’s hardly all wild-eyed liberals there. And I doubt any of them have even heard of Roanoke County.
“This phenomenon of self-hatred reminds me of a former NFL player by the name of “HE HATE ME”….who was one of the strike-breakers back when the NFL players struck some years back, and “HE HATE ME” did well enough that he hooked onto the NO Saints for a year or so (i may not have all the facts exact, but i’m fairly close).”
What?
Oh yes Frank, Henry and terps, it is us, not you. Good thing for America that we are not all as “smart” as you three.
Golly, terps, you’re even worse off in this thread than when you claimed OWSers were destroying Elmwood Park and chasing families away. Or than when you were blaming Carilion for all the evils in the world. You’ve really gone around the bend.
Frank, you should really look up facts before posting.
Rod Smart, aka He Hate Me, was a player in the short-lived XFL, for Las Vegas. He played college ball at Western Kentucky, and was undrafted after graduation. He signed in 2000 for the Chargers practice squad, but didn’t make the full roster. He then went on to the XFL in 2001, and had ‘HE HATE ME’ stitched onto his jersey (they let players pick what they wanted on their jerseys, just one of the many gimmicks of the XFL), the best-selling XFL jersey ever produced. At the end of the XFL season, he signed on to Edmonton in the CFL, playing one game, then got signed by the Eagles…mainly for their practice squad, and was released at season’s end.
In 2002, the Carolina Panthers claimed him off waivers, and was on the team through 2005, including their Super Bowl appearance. He was then claimed by the Raiders in 2006, but was not selected for their final roster, and has not played since. He was later selected by Tennessee for the 2008 season of the All-Maerican Football League, which didn’t get off the ground, so he was released before playing that year.
The reason he picked that monicker for his XFL jersey was that he felt that his success would cause his opponents to hate him, so he went with it…it had nothing to do with self hatred. His own words, from an interview with the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel: Basically, my opponent is going to hate me. After I win, he’s gonna hate me.
Oh, and he never broke a strike…in fact, there weren’t any NFL labor disputes that even remotely resulted in the potential for a strike, or a lockout, during his playing career.
OMG. How the hell did Mark’s Russian-history essay get turned into a discussion of the XFL?
(But OJ, thank you for the info and I mean that sincerely).
Other John, it is always nice to see your clarity and sanity in a sea of madness! I mean that sincerely too!!
Thanks for putting all those puzzle pieces together Dan! Who knew that Bohemian Grove was Perestroika?
Mark
I have spent considerable time in Poland and you couldn’t be more wrong. The hatred and fear of the Russians is widespread. The #1 attraction in Wroclaw is a museum depicting one mural of Poland’s fight for independence from Russia. Go there sometime and you may appreciate Poland’s struggle for freedom from Russia and not some fantasy you’ve dreamed up about Russian benevolance to it’s neighbors. You are alone among those who appreciate Polish history in thinking that Russia has been anything but a violant predator.
terps I hope my comment #38 had a sobering effect on you. Or is this the calm before the storm, and you’re going to come roaring back like Freddy Krueger at any moment? After all, there are still a few of those damn ungrateful Native American Indian immigrants who have not assimilated into our country.
I’ve been more a lurker than commenter in recent weeks, but I couldn’t let that one go, especially since I was a fan of the XFL when it debuted. And how he got pulled into this thread originally, I’m still trying to figure it out. And no problem…I’ve mostly made an effort to stay out of political discussions simply because I gain little in the exchange, and others are far more eloquent than I am. But something related to sports, I’m probably diving in.
BTW, this was an interesting bit of history. I had wondered about the origins of the name for the Russian River, and was previously unaware of their presence that far south. From what I do know, they were in somewhat close proximity to the extent of the Spanish Empire, so that may have had something to do with the fortifications and defensive means employed at Fort Ross.
Living in today’s world would be helpful for terps, Gomer (er Frank), and Henry. There is no more iron curtain. The Russia of today is not the Russia of the 1920 t0o the 1980′s. There is no Soviet Union. For thsat matter, the Germany of today, the Japan of today, the Italy of today, and even the China of today are not the same ones of the World War 2 and post war/cold war era. Listening to the neocons, and buying into the litany of the coporate military industrial complex that is fighting to protect its cash cow is distorting what America stands for and negating any claim that we have to moral authority or the high ground. We have been and still are a great country. The stand that we had to take in rewponse to Germany and Japan and our initial actions after the war through the Marshall plan were examples of america at its best. Since then, we have become a bully, attempting to be the world’s policeman and forcing our views and our culture on people and nations with century old traditions that do not adapt easily to ours. The freedoms that we fought to proterct have been allowed to slip by the watside as we did what was expedient in the middle east, vietnam, and around the world .I grew up in the world war 2/cold war era. I lived through the periods when we had air raid sirens posted on school buildings, built bomb shelters, had air raid drills in schools, and taljked of how to survive a nuclear attack. That is not the world we live in today. And the sooner that people like terps, Henry, Frank, and those like then on this blog and in our country learn this lesson, the sooner we can return to sanity. Ignoring history or only selecting the parts of it that conform to your ideology is neither smart nor sane.
So…we’re blaming the refs’ strike on ICLEI. Got it!
terps, the conclusion you need to draw from the Russian revolution is that serfs will eventually tire of their servitude. Russia’s not unique that way. It’s something to keep in mind here.
MarkJ, are the feelings about Katyn really that much appeased? In the 80s I had some professors from the University of Warsaw and they were quite bitter about it.
hey other john, good bio on the Smart guy! what i enjoyed about his moniker, as you described, was that he did it in an effort to gain an edge over his opponent (he was either a receiver, or a db)…and after seeing his moniker on his back, it’s kinda hard to forget entirely. That said, I figured I’d bring Smart’s personal moniker back to the folks’ minds as we witness yet again ol’ dano’s self-flagging flails at trying to paint Americans in the worst possible light.
Hey ol’ dano, did the American colonials…ever do any good? Must you always find the bad American power, while at the same time, never find the radical islamist terrorist?
Well, i know the answer to that, which is why i dub thee, and thy followers, the “I Hate Me” tribe.
Dave
Who is the one “ignoring history???
and, “one more thing”…i think it was opportune timing for the russians’ exit from that area to occur when it did….preserving the manifest destiny of the name of San Fransisco’s NFL team.
53.terps I hope my comment #38 had a sobering effect on you. Or is this the calm before the storm, and you’re going to come roaring back like Freddy Krueger at any moment? After all, there are still a few of those damn ungrateful Native American Indian immigrants who have not assimilated into our country.
Ok, history according to Mark….
If the Russians had discovered and populated America, they would have merrily cohabitated with the Indians and even today Indians would be roaming the frontier leading Buffaloe off of cliffs. The Russians would not dare go anywhere near any land with Indians and no Indians would speak Russian.
For extra credit, Mark will teach you that centuries of Russian invasions of Poland are propaganda from the west and that modern Russians are completely different loveable peacenicks. Americans are now the warmongers who kill Indians and force immigrants to speak English.
Thanks, Mark, we are learning alot on this blog.
I did not know Terps had spent a lot of time in Poland.
Mark, if you and Terps met you would actually like each other.
Frank, as Mark would say, “you’re dancing with the shrimp.” Who swim backwards, ya know.
terps
You spent a lot of time in Poland. Was it in the last thirty years or are you trying to equate Poland before the collapse of the iron curtain to today. I seem to recall wee had the same problem on the time you spent in South Korea relating to the health care issue.
Dan
Frank swims with the shrimp , philosophizes with the crabs ,m and communicates like the North Carolina Pyles.
“If the Russians had discovered and populated America, they would have merrily cohabitated with the Indians and even today Indians would be roaming the frontier leading Buffaloe off of cliffs.”
We should note that the colonialists curbed this barbaric practice of the natives by shooting all the buffalo.
I have to say I am LMAO at you today, Terps.
My understanding was that Terps was in Poland in the very late 1970s as a union organizer, following in the footsteps of his hero and former union president, Ronald Reagan.
(Just kidding!)
hey ol’ dano, were russians the predominant nationality of the former Soviet Union? Was lenin a russion? was stalin a russian? was kruscheck(sp?)? was yeltsin(sp?)? how about the guys in-between that ol’ shoe slammer, and yeltsin? is medvedev a russian? is putin a russian?
yeah boy, you and mark can sing the praises of russian power…and in selected areas, probably for the right reasons. i challenge you to do the same with American power. according to what you and others in the “I Hate Me” tribe fuss about, it’s pretty easy for outsiders to your tribe to get the clear impression that, according to you, American power has no redeeming value.
Dan, Terps does not seem to be in a joking mood today. Is it safe to tease him that way?
Dan, if he has a coronary you are gonna feel bad.
Kristen #57 Katyn, an early WW II event, will always be significant for Pols who are interested in history. Part of the frustration that your professor had was that the Soviet’s denied they were responsible, and blamed it on the Germans. Some 20 years ago, the Soviet archives were opened and it was clear that this happened on the orders of Stalin. As WW II evolved, the horrors the Germans did in Poland dwarfed what the Soviets did in the early months. This is why the Poland still keeps a giant monument in its capital for the Soviet Liberating Army.
It should be noted that the relations between Pols and Germans are now good also. And, the relations between Germans and Russians are very good now. And the relations between Germany and France are very good now.
While there will always be a few wingnuts like terps in every country who are reliving this period, there seems to be a lot more terps in the US than in Europe. I would guess that is because the Europeans have almost constant interaction with each other and because they have a history of gong to war with each other and then putting it behind them. The terps in the U.S. are an ocean away living in a time-warp bubble.
As an aside, I wonder if terps knows that Poland invaded Russia in the 17th century and got all the way to the outskirts of Moscow and held that territory for several decades. Also, Poland invaded the Soviet Union in 1920 and got all the way to Kiev. That was actually a double-cross of the Red Army after Poland double crossed the White Army during the Russian Civil War. The vast majority of historians believe that had the Pols not double crossed the White Army at that juncture, the White Army was within weeks of defeating the Red Army. I.E. There would have been no Soviet Union, no Stalin terror etc.
Such is life in Europe. Europeans move on.
Dave
I was in Poland 10 years ago for my second visit. I stayed with a family of a friend who’s father was still alive and he had dinner with us. The Russians came to his town during WW2 and gave everyone in town 1 hr to pack up and get on a train. The whole town was packed into cattle cars and shipped to Siberia for 3 years. Both of his parents died. He kept his brothers and sisters alive by foraging in the sub zero siberian forests for food to feed them. The Russians left them there to die.
Poland is one country where the people seem to really love America and they certainly fear the Russians.
Frank #68. Your suggestion that Stalin was a Russian suggests that you are have not read the subject of this thread. Read it again, and you will discover that in fact Stalin was not a Russian. Read comment #38 and you will again discover that Stalin was not a Russian. Kind of reckless, Frank.
“If terps would fly into Warsaw national airport and take a taxi to down town, just as he enters the city, he will see on his right side a giant monument to the Soviet Army that liberated Poland from the Germans”
And Mark, until a few years ago, there were monuments to Saddam Hussein for liberating Iraq. And in North Korea there are monuments to Dear Leader for liberating North Korea.
That monument was erected when Poland was an oppressed satelite of Russia and those monuments were erected to appease their rulers.
For God’s sake, please tell me that you understand this. No one can be that gullible.
Thank you to Mark for the fascinating history lesson, and ti Ncik for the pictures.
Wow, the history of international-relations double-crosses is a well that runs deep.
That’s why I’d like some clarification from Iran on what exactly “only for peaceful purposes” means in terms of its nuke research. Because that statement is designed to make other countries believe it’s NOT pursuing nuke weapons. And I don’t believe it necessarily means that at all.
Terps says the U.S. is “…by far, by any yardstick, the greatest country ever” This is brainwashed patriotic poo for the lemmings.
Imagine if you told the guy next to you that he is inferior… So how does telling an entire group of people (country) the same drivel improve your conceit?
, the conclusion you need to draw from the Russian revolution is that serfs will eventually tire of their servitude. Russia’s not unique that way. It’s something to keep in mind here.
MarkJ, are the feelings about Katyn really that much appeased? In the 80s I had some professors from the University of Warsaw and they were quite bitter about it.
Poor Kristen tries SO hard to sound educated. Trying to make up for that little math contretemps yesterday that got her laughed out of the blog.
terps#74, The Communist government in Poland collapsed 23 years ago. The Soviet Union collapsed 21 years ago. Poland has been in NATO and the European Union for about 10 years now. If they wanted to tear down the monument to the Soviet Liberation Army, they would have done it a long time ago.
Looking at your earlier comments, its quite clear you have created an enormous fantasy in your head based on a couple of anecdotal experiences that you had.
I think the other participants on this thread will find it ironic that I am sitting here in Poland at 11:30 at night and my Polish wife is asking me to come to bed – and instead I am letting some guy from Roanoke tell me how it is in Poland and what Polish people really think.
Good night.
The typo queen strikes again. That should be, to Nick.
While there will always be a few wingnuts like terps in every country who are reliving this period, there seems to be a lot more terps in the US than in Europe. –Mark J.
Good job, Terps.
It generally only takes one pointed challenge to puncture the ‘objective’ veneer and cull these leftwingers down to what they’re really about. But really, if Mark J. weren’t a leftwinger, do we think Dan would be featuring his essays regularly?
“I think the other participants on this thread will find it ironic that I am sitting here in Poland at 11:30 at night and my Polish wife is asking me to come to bed – and instead I am letting some guy from Roanoke tell me how it is in Poland and what Polish people really think.”
Mark, that is kind of like choosing to dine on beef jerky instead of filet mignon.
Take your beautiful wife over Terps any time. I know the guy and he’s not all that.
What it all boils down to is leftists for some reason think America should emulate the Europeans even though everything about our country is superior in every way (for the time being),
Nobody in the media ever notes “Gee. 0bama’s plan is exactly the same path Greece and Spain have been following for the past decade, and they’re going bankrupt. Since we are the world’s #1 economic power, why would we want to fundamentally change our turbocharged system to match their failed anemic socialist model?”
They never ask that. Dan never asks that. Why not?
Also, has anybody ever noticed when a guy claims to be “down the middle” or undecided, Invariably. he always ends up being a lib? There’s a long list of people like that in here.
I’ll end my posts on this blog the way I started it, while making sure I avoid the idiocy of terps & Suzie (of course the phony ‘wife of a wealthy man’ had to weigh in)
Thank you, Mark for providing enlightenment into the settlement of what became the Western US. It gives me incentive to learn more about those events. Keep the informative and enlightening contributions flowing!
Re: Comment by MarkJ — September 26, 2012 @ 4:06 pm
Europeans have almost constant interaction with each other and because they have a history of gong to war with each other and then putting it behind them.
—————–
MarkJ
Interesting observation — given the current relationships between the US and Germany and Japan vs. forgiveness or lack thereof in European tension:
1991 Ten-Day War
1991–1992 South Ossetian War of Independence
1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
1992 War of Transnistria
1992 Ossetian-Ingush conflict
1992–1993 First War in Abkhazia
1992–1995 Bosnian War
1994–1996 First Chechen War
1997 Unrest in Albania
1998–1999 Kosovo War
1998–present Republican Dissidents Conflict
1998 Second War in Abkhazia
1999 Dagestan War
1999–2009 Second Chechen War
1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley
2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia
2002 Perejil Island crisis
2004–present Kurdish–Turkish conflict
2004 Unrest in Kosovo
2004 Adjara crisis
2007–present Civil war in Ingushetia
2008 War in South Ossetia
2009–present Insurgency in the North Caucasus
2011–present Kosovo–Serbia border clashes
Also, this issue of holding grudges was not well dealt with in thread on the middle east / Afghanistan / Pakistan. Tell us about the forgiveness and putting hostilities behind them might play into that thread.
“Take your beautiful wife over Terps any time. I know the guy and he’s not all that.”
Yeah Dan, that’s the one thing we have in common….along with having great wives.
Tell Mark he needs to expand away from his extreme left wing circles over in Poland in much the same way you need to reach out to conservatives here in Roanoke. He may learn something….like the Polish have not forgotten the Katyn massacre.
Poor Kristen tries SO hard to sound educated. Trying to make up for that little math contretemps yesterday that got her laughed out of the blog.
Comment by Suzie — September 26, 2012 @ 5:14 pm
You mean the same thread where you got repeatedly sliced, diced and served up in a salad with no dressing by me? The same one where your pom-pom carrier, yaj had to come in and highlight your one perceived victory in a avalanche of defeats? It’d be cute if it weren’t so pathetic. You managed to reach out and scratch Kristen on the ankle as she walked past your broken, battered carcass and you contrive that into some kind of victory? If you didn’t act like such a sanctimonious turdblossom all the time, I might actually feel sorry for you.
Regardless, the subject of this thread is far too complicated and in-depth for you to even fathom. Why don’t you go drool and slap your helmet all over some other thread, where comprehension of the topic at hand doesn’t require you to actually consider and understand a world beyond the end of your nose?
MarkJ: Another excellent contribution. Thank you, sir. There are a lot of things about European and Asian history that Americans don’t know. It’s nice to see someone helping to enlighten us. Keep up the good work.
Terps says the U.S. is “…by far, by any yardstick, the greatest country ever” This is brainwashed patriotic poo for the lemmings.
It’s 100% true, Dave Gresham. Name one instance in which we are not superior. And don’t start on the crap like “Iceland has fewer murders and cleaner air than the United States.”
Commit this phrase to memory and carve it in granite:
“No socialist European hell hole can ever match the United States in any meaningful way”.
Suzie, not for nothing, but when you want to denigrate someone else’s intelligence, reasoning, integrity or honesty, it severely hampers your chance at success to reveal your own lack of same.
You struggle to honestly convey what the right wing you shill for “thinks”, so do not push the limits of your ability and take on explaining what others think.
America can learn from older nations and cultures just as you might have been able to learn from the older wolves in your pack, had you not been such an arrogant young pup.
NOTHING that President Obama has done or has in his “plan” is remotely the “same path Greece and Spain have been following” much less “exactly the same path”! Your delusions of grandeur have led you to believe you know things and your posts prove you simply do not. We are used to it. Please spare poor Mark. Nothing good can come of your efforts. You are terribly outgunned in this one.
Terps..
Using the logic you used above and bringing it a little
closer to home..
Point out for us on what Indian Reservation(s) one of us
might find a stature honoring Andrew Jackson?
Im sure they loved clawing for a life in Oklahoma.
DaveG, I’ve never understood why some people are incapable of expressing their love for their country without immediately denigrating every other country. Most people think that their country is “best”. “Best” is a completely subjective and meaningless modifier in this case.
The US is a fine country on a planet full of fine countries, most of whose citizens think their own country is the “best”.
crooked road,
Don’t end your posts!
Oh Crooked Road, please say you are only done in this thread. You have to know how much we need people like you contributing here!
Go to bed Archie Bunker!
regarding post #68, hey markj, my point was, at least the great majority of those leaders were/are russian. Ergo, the russian power structure isn’t “all that” now, is it/was it? Of course not. and “biased as hell”, ol’ dano, the leader of the “I Hate Me” crowd, will exploit any opportunity he can to pound the US.
I’ll end my posts on this blog the way I started it, while making sure I avoid the idiocy of terps & Suzie (of course the phony ‘wife of a wealthy man’ had to weigh in)
C’mon , Crooked Road, deep down you enjoy my idiocy. You’ll never find a nicer conservative than me and there is always Dan there to come to your defense. And no one can match Dan in a war of the written word. I promise to tone down my Indian and Russian bashing and I may even find something nice to say about OWS. If GDAD can put up with me, anyone can.
“regarding post #68, hey markj, my point was, at least the great majority of those leaders were/are russian. Ergo, the russian power structure isn’t “all that” now, is it/was it? Of course not. and “biased as hell”, ol’ dano, the leader of the “I Hate Me” crowd, will exploit any opportunity he can to pound the US.”
That was Frank, dancing with the shrimp –again.
Re: Comment by J.M.White — September 26, 2012 @ 7:40 pm
Plus 1, here.
MarkJ, keep ‘em coming.
88
Thanks for the compliment, J.M.White. I generally save my best smackdowns for those who preface their stupidity with an insult as Kristen did about the ‘engineer’s math’ in Monday’s thread.
Keep propping her up like that, and she’ll probably agree to a ride in your junky ’78 Firebird. Gotta get it off the cinder blocks and running first, tho.
hey ol’ dano, you quoted me exactly. thank you for making my point yet again!
America can learn from older nations and cultures
True. We can learn from those in Europe what not to do. Why are leftwingers such slow learners?
“smackdowns” – big LOL there. Slapping your leg or patting yourself on the back after clicking “Post Comment” doesn’t qualify as such. Well, yes, that you have the manual dexterity to do so without your helper monkey is quite an achievement… but it’s still not a smackdown.
Still fascinated with my personal life, I see. I suppose that’s to be expected, since I bomb you to the Stone Age on any issues with actual substance. Your lack of intellectual integrity is astounding.
Unfortunately for Kristen (and your weak attempt at an insult), my dad and I sold the ’78 Firebird several years ago (it was a drag car, so no passengers anyway). My father and I jointly own a ’62 Austin-Healey 3000 Mk II and a fully-restored ’88 Jaguar XJ6, though. My personal work vehicle is a ’00 Acura 3.2TL (damn right, it’s a Type-S) and I have a ’92 Ford Taurus wagon for hauling materials. Maybe she’ll want to ride in one of those. I’m not losing hope, yet.
I feel like we’re growing closer each day, Precious. What kind of car do you drive? Do you prefer puppies or kittens? Thai food or Chinese? Why do we park on driveways and drive on parkways? Why do you think apartments are called apartments when they’re all together? What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen European swallow? I’m afraid I’ll have to have some answers to these questions before we can proceed further in this blossoming relationship, sweetie. I wouldn’t want to commit myself to you and find out later that you’re a hateful, ignorant troglodyte, harboring myopic, horribly skewed world views. It would just devastate me.
my dad and I sold the ’78 Firebird several years ago
Jeezus. Right on the mark. LOLOL!
It made me laugh. Good call. I just did the wrench work, though, and it was never on blocks. We have a lift.