Thursday’s column: The atheists are with Jesus on public prayer
Rembrandt | Wikimedia Commons
Sectarian prayer at its twice-monthly meetings was once again before the Roanoke County Board of Supervisors Tuesday. And for fans of irony, it was a really great show.
For one thing, the supervisors felt compelled to have their discussions about public prayer in a private session — with an attorney from Liberty University’s Liberty Counsel.
For another, public comments preceding that meeting featured an atheist quoting Jesus. And she made more sense than anyone else in the room.
At least three members of the five-member board — Chairman Richard Flora, R-Hollins; Supervisor Mike Altizer, R-Vinton; and Supervisor Charlotte Moore, I-Clearbrook — would like to avoid a long, drawn-out and potentially expensive lawsuit.
That’s been threatened by some atheists who want the board to halt a practice of opening supervisors’ meetings with sectarian prayer . Previously, that majority seemed willing to change the board’s policy to allow strictly nonsectarian prayer, which would avoid a legal fight.
But two supervisors —- Butch Church, I-Catawba and Ed Elswick, I-Windsor Hills — want to keep some form of sectarian prayer. It was Church who engineered Tuesday’s meeting with Liberty Counsel.
After the executive session, Flora seemed optimistic that by the end of the year, Liberty Counsel could help supervisors craft a prayer policy that’s both constitutional and satisfies each side in the debate.
Maybe he’s correct about that. But Liberty Counsel’s recent record track record in the area of religion and public policy isn’t a stellar one.
READ THE REST OF THIS COLUMN HERE.
September 27, 2012 - 6:00 AM
I’m guessing the atheists don’t know that the tax payer funded Greenridge Rec Center now has church services onsite twice a week. I wonder if they would allow the atheists to hold a service there twice a week? Somehow I doubt they would.
Folly? Meet Waste of Time.
AMEN to Judith!
They held a private session with a Liberty Council lawyer? Seems to me that ex parte communications with an advocate on one side of an issue is a big no-no. Imagine if they had let an ACLU lawyer in their little session instead; oh, how the righteous would HOWL!
Sadly no, “the ideal solution” is not often what these “supervisors” choose.
It is beyond pitiful when a moment of silence is not good enough. That alone tells you all you need to know about these “vain hypocrites”.
It is always suspect when atheists quote the bible, for they don’t believe in the words, themselves. But as for bibllical passages on group prayer, there are plenty of examples from Acts and Chronicles. In the New Testament, Matthew quoted Jesus himself:
Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven, for where two or three come together in My name, there I am with them.
Matt. 18:19,20.
Given the obvious power of prayer, I wish the atheists could find more productive uses for their ample free time than coming to meetings and railing against something beneficial. If praying as a unit helps get these councilmen get focused and in the right frame of mind to work in a common cause, let them do it their way.
Hello My name is Dan Casey.
Back when I first interviewed with the Roanoke Times, I was given the ultimatum to draw in readers. So, based on my political beliefs, I decided that the only way to do that is to write all of my columns based on getting once group of people angry with all of my columns. The other side would love me because I will write columns nobody else writes about..mainly because it is not journalism, but rather divisive rhetoric. I am like the little boy who put the fake chattering teeth in the teacher’s desk, while hiding behind the door giggling under my breath. I spew anti-christian and anti-conservative jargon and then sit at my desk and giggle as the RT and myself gets hammered with letters and emails.
Once all the angry letters and emails start coming in, I will take the letter that has the most spelling and grammar mistakes and post it on my blog so we can make fun. Although there were probably many letters that were well written. My job as a “journalist” sure is fun.
I know there would be no chance to write for the Washington Post or other news editorial or commentary staff. My writings are not scholarly opinions. They are my attempt to keep a job to support my family. Without me, the Roanoke Times would be boring.
So, for all you students who want to make it as a journalist. Here are some tips on how to make it as a writer.
- Don’t worry about all those classes in college.
- Create hate and division for others.
- Write columns about how dumb Christians are, and that God doesn’t exist. – Attempt to divide the country by uttering liberal garbage that angers one side over the other.
Thanks to all of you ignorant God believers, and right wing moral conservatives who I target every week.
Your Athiest, Liberal, child-like, writer (haha),
Dan Casey
Hopeful Journalist
Huck Finn came to the correct conclusion:
““Then Miss Watson she took me in the closet and prayed, but nothing
come of it. She told me to pray every day, and whatever I asked for I
would get it. But it warn’t so. I tried it. Once I got a fish-line,
but no hooks. It warn’t any good to me without hooks. I tried for the
hooks three or four times, but somehow I couldn’t make it work. By and
by, one day, I asked Miss Watson to try for me, but she said I was a
fool. She never told me why, and I couldn’t make it out no way.
I set down one time back in the woods, and had a long think about it.
I says to myself, if a body can get anything they pray for, why don’t
Deacon Winn get back the money he lost on pork? Why can’t the widow
get back her silver snuffbox that was stole? Why can’t Miss Watson fat
up? No, says I to my self, there ain’t nothing in it. I went and told
the widow about it, and she said the thing a body could get by praying
for it was “spiritual gifts.” This was too many for me, but she told
me what she meant–I must help other people, and do everything I could
for other people, and look out for them all the time, and never think
about myself. This was including Miss Watson, as I took it. I went out
in the woods and turned it over in my mind a long time, but I couldn’t
see no advantage about it–except for the other people; so at last I
reckoned I wouldn’t worry about it any more, but just let it go.”
It would be good if a few more supervisors went back into the woods and had a long think about it.
I’ve been touting the Moment of Silence as a great compromise for many months. I’m not sure how anyone could be against it.
You scoff at the Giles Count situation, Dan, but just you wait. suzie has super-secret information that any minute it’s going to become a big issue in the presidential election. A gang of right-wing evangelicals set it up. All that settlement stuff and Giles agreeing to stop posting the Commandments, that was part of the plan. Just wait. It’s going to happen any minute now. It’s going to burst out on the national stage just any minute now. They’re waiting to spring it right here in the last weeks. Really.
I attended this meeting, and I spoke for the Atheist side as well. Judee, the Atheist who quoted, Jesus, did a really great job at getting the the non-theist view across. This issue with prayer is one reason why me and Judee, created the local group, Southern Virginia Atheists, http://www.meetup.com/SouthernVirginiaAtheists/ We want to represent the Atheist community as the upstanding and moral people that we all are.
One thing really did irritate me the at the Board Meeting. When Pastor Irby was giving his speech to the Board, he made it a point to make threats to the board. Not direct threats from himself, but threats as in his god would inflict some type of punishment if they voted prayer to stop at the meetings. So when the prayers stop at these meetings, if something violent happens or if some type of monetary loss happens to the Roanoke County, its his god punishing us for taking prayer out of the meetings, a place where prayer should have never been in the first place! Frankly, I found his comments to be extremely ignorant and disgusting and he should be embarrassed to use his god as some form of terrorist threat to our community, and then move on to say if and when something does happen, it would be the Boards fault,I kept looking for a sign from Westboro Baptist Church when he was speaking. Pardon us, Mr. Irby, we are not superstitious. Keep your fear tactics to yourself.
Not atheists. They are anti-theists. When I was an atheist, I never cared about the religion of other people. If someone prayed before a meeting, whatever. It was no different to me than someone standing up to recite a poem before a meeting.
These are bigots trying to restrict the speech of others because they disagree with them. If the supervisors said “We will not allow speakers to disagree with us”, it’s the same thing as what these anti-theists are trying to do. They want to shutdown speech because they don’t like the content.
Democrats called out the “Big Dawg” when they invited former President Clinton to speak at the Dem’s National Convention…
and now, the the Christian right/republicans are calling up their “Big Dawg” – God.
“All around us, we see economic decline, immorality, corruption, growing secular humanism and attacks on religious liberty.”
There is a website called 40 Days to Save America – and you can join so you can pray “For 40 days leading up to Election Day, we will humble ourselves before the Lord, and cry out to him with one voice to save America.” http://40daystosaveamerica.com/
and a video too…http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MtqvsAFI30w
See how easy this will be to defeat President Obama? Just pray him away…
#1 OG, public facilities can generally be used for religious functions, and they would HAVE to allow atheists to use it, too, although you might be right about them trying to stop it. I remember when Fredericksburg tried to stop baptisms in the river on public property and the ACLU stepped in to defend the church doing the baptisms.
Saintbridge
Love the comment.
#7 PP STILL doesn’t understand what a columnist is or does. Sad.
#7 PS, but boy does PP keep on reading and participating despite his disdain for Dan.
Has the “Liberty Counsel” ever won?
Pistol;
#7 One of my favorite blog posts I have ever read here. Awesome. I will laugh about that one all day. Thank you.
It IS possible for religious groups to use or lease government-run spaces for their own use, provided the groups are charged the same amount as other users and do not proselytize. http://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14033-churches-meeting-at-public-schools
If I ever attend a Board of Supervisors meeting–or any government-sponsored event, really–and there’s a call to prayer, I’m reciting the sh’ma and the v’ahavta at the top of my little Jewish lungs.
I’m guessing the atheists don’t know that the tax payer funded Greenridge Rec Center now has church services onsite twice a week. I wonder if they would allow the atheists to hold a service there twice a week? Somehow I doubt they would.
Yet the government has no problems using churches as polling stations. Amazing how the separation nuts are quiet when it comes to government using churches
Nice article Dan. Love and the golden rule is all the religion anyone needs. Using fake affection, woman have always sold physical comfort while men have always sold spiritual comfort. Argue which profession is older, but we know what the profession is.
“These are bigots trying to restrict the speech of others because they disagree with them. If the supervisors said “We will not allow speakers to disagree with us”, it’s the same thing as what these anti-theists are trying to do. They want to shutdown speech because they don’t like the content.”
Here’s how we know Henry is incorrect about this: In the commandments debate, the people demanding they be taken down very specifically objected to a school-sponsored display, whether it was put up by the school or by a private entity on space the school provide. Either way, it was school (i.e. state) sponsored. And THAT’s what they objected to.
They had no problem with individual students putting the 10 Commandments on their lockers.
I think the BOS is going to solve this issue in that way. They will adopt an official nonsectarian policy for opening prayers, and at the same time communicate to the public that they’re not going to restrict any religious-natured speech in the the public comments section of the meetings.
There will only be a problem if ardent members of different faiths show up at meetings and begin reciting 3-minute-long prayers in the public comments section. You get 8 or 9 of those at each meeting (Chritsian, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Sufi, Santeria, etc) and it’ll turn what was supposed to be a government meeting into an ecumenical mishmash.
Those meetings are already weird enough with the stuff the Tea Party spouts at each one.
Way to show you were ignorant even when an atheist Henry. This is about GOVERNMENT sponsoring ONE religion over others and specifically ONE branch of even that! The government has no role in religious matters and that should be maintained. A simple moment of silence accomplishes the goal of a respectful government, the sectarian prayers do not. Period.
While the cause is most often pursued by atheists and strict believers in separation of church and state, it is NOT only supported by atheists. I pray. I believe in God. I do not support my government sponsoring any religion. That is not their job. That is why we have churches.
No one can remove God or prayer. But they sure can demonize over both.
If Suzie thinks praying serves the purpose of getting the supervisors “focused” then she needs to watch a meeting when the babbling incoherency of Butchie and Eddie are on display. In addition to praying it would take four Red Bulls and a handful of Adderall to get those two “focused for the comon good”.
If the atheists were truly consistent in their adherence to separation, they should abstain from voting if a church is their polling site.
StillLearning, funny!
I don’t get why anyone needs a prayer, poem, of moment of anything to sit the heck down and do their jobs. What exactly is the problem with that? They weren’t put there to sit staring into space gathering their thoughts. Get to work!
#21 Once again, suzie, you didn’t understand the post.
Hello, my name isn’t Pistol Pete,
I hide in the safety of online anonymity and attack anyone who does not think or believe as I do and on top of that I insult them for not having the same political beliefs that I do. Instead of being glad we have a local newspaper, I gripe and complain because it is not the right wing propaganda I need to validate my beliefs and political positions. How damn dare they! Don’t they know who they are messing with? We are willing to go to the mat for God, our beliefs and even our pitiful candidates, all from the safety of that internet anonymity of course.
No, I am not forced to read the columns or editorials I disagree with but darn it they should just not be there! If you cannot agree with us, then you should shut up. That’s just the way I see it.
How dare the people who do agree with their columns, editorials and who pay for the subscriptions dare to comment on their website! That is not the American way. We are all supposed to believe in my God and my politics and my truth!
How dare a newspaper or some columnist for them dare to define journalism? Journalism is not supposed to make people think, it is supposed to make them happy and justified in their beliefs and if it doesn’t, well, it is wrong!
Worse, like the skunk at a picnic, they dare to challenge my plans. They dare to question what I say. They even dare to disagree with my sources. Who are my sources? Well FOX News and right wing websites that tell me what I want to hear. THAT is journalism. THAT is honesty. THAT is the American way!
No, they never come right out as being “anti-christian” or “anti-conservative” but my time on FOX News and right wing websites assures me that I am to look at their “jargon” and question their integrity if they dare not agree with my POV. And so, I do. From the safety of that anonymous internet identity, I “give ‘em hell”!
I don’t know why they can’t be honest and forthright like my FOX and Friends, weasel zippers, drudges, and wing nut dailies. I guess it is because they are Godless heathens. When we lose an election, it is their fault. When I lose an argument it is because they cheated and used facts!
One day, I will be called before God and when he tells me that I did a good job loving my neighbors, not judging others and living only for Christ, they’ll all be sorry they won’t be there to see that.
Who knows, maybe someday my anonymous integrity will be on the great one’s website for all to see! I’ll tell them all about my scholarly opinions those damned liberals refused to believe. I’ll show them how an education pays off, I’ll show them that love and understanding for others is all I write about, I’ll show them how Christian love can cure that devil that rides them to be so heathen, wrong and wicked. Why, I’ll unite this country with my conservative support of the glorious past and the glorious future of more of the same! No more of that “garbage that angers one side over the other”. Not from me! I won’t ever target anyone. I’ll just tell my truth.
From the safety of my anonymous internet identity.
Elections are not “government business”. They are OUR business.
PP and Sandi Saunders:
Great stuff!
I don’t get why anyone needs a prayer, poem, of moment of anything to sit the heck down and do their jobs. What exactly is the problem with that? They weren’t put there to sit staring into space gathering their thoughts. Get to work!
Hon, admittedly it doesn’t take a lot of psyching to answer a phone or assemble a value meal, but for people who do serious work, mental preparation is very important. You let them do it however they need to do it, and you don’t niggle them over 30 seconds.
Elections are not “government business”. They are OUR business.
But you know what? The business of God is truly our business. Our manmade stuff is pretty trivial in comparison.
Suzie, I’m one of those separation ‘nuts’. We DO object to having polling places in churches (along with public school graduations, etc.). But one must be pragmatic. Some time, depending on how the district is laid out, etc., as much as it pains me, a church is the most convenient place to have the polls.
I’m sure you’ll understand that I continue to vote instead of trying to prove some superior sense of consistency to you or anyone else.
(please note the respectfulness of this posting)
#26 From what I’ve seen, churches don;t force religion on you when you go there to vote. So your post makes no sense at all.
In Sandi’s diatribe: 11 exclamation points
PP’s: 0 exclamation points
Sandi is a very angry and irrational person, and it shows.
Kristen, you ask have Liberty Counsel ever won one of these things?
Sadly, the answer is yes and quite a few actually. Part of it is due to the inconsistency of rulings from higher courts. A lot of it though is a new tactic meant to re-package religious speech as protected political speech. That’s why it’s generally OK for the valedictorian of a high school class, as part of her commencement speech, to preach away despite anything that the attendees want to hear.
If you’d like to read more about the efficacy of Mathew Staver and his Liberty Counsel ilk, you can read about them in a book called THE GOOD NEWS CLUB.
http://thegoodnewsclub.com/
But free speech isn’t really their goal of course. It’s about ensuring a hegemony of Christianity in this country. Not just ANY Christianity though. It’s a certain kind of Christianity. If you’re a liberal Christian, that’s the wrong kind.
And because they’re well funded, it’s relatively easy for them to drag these things out and ‘run out the clock’ on less well funded entities like the FFRF and the ACLU.
What I want to know is, and I mean this sincerely, why isn’t Attorney General Cucinneli (sp?) in here telling the BOS to shut it down? I’m quite sure I know the answer of course but dammit, as the top law enforcement officer in the commonwealth, he should be doing this.
I wonder if I can sue him for breach of duty??
Some other links of interest Kristen follow:
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/08/liberty-law-school-profiled.html
(with a link to a story in our very own Roanoke Times)
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2008/11/newsweek-criticized-for-article-on.html
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2008/12/8th-circuit-hears-arguments-in-gideon.html
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2008/09/aclu-seeks-attorneys-fees-in-10.html
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2006/02/unconstitutional-school-prayer.html
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2011/05/student-delivers-graduation-prayer.html
Actually Suzie I don’t think churches should be used for polling places. I’m sure your head was about to explode when you read my post which was my point. Your hate for tax payer rec facilities that you are too lazy to use versus your belief that your god belongs in everyones life whether they want it or not.
Suzie:
“It is always suspect when atheists quote the bible, for they don’t believe in the words, themselves.”
Exactly the opposite. Atheists have no scripture to sanitize or religuous peers to please. You, on the other hand, are awfully selective which words you choose to believe…. or not or in certain company. After all, you are just an anonymous blog entity. I bet some of the people you share a pew with at mass would be horrified to know how you conduct yourself here.
“Given the obvious power of prayer”
How often do you pray Suzie? Do you pray to a white Jesus’ Father? With the decline our county has been on for so long and all of the prayer it has had, please tell us about the obvious power of prayer… and without any lame argument that we aren’t capable of understanding it.
“If the atheists were truly consistent in their adherence to separation, they should abstain from voting if a church is their polling site.”
That’s stupid. If there is a problem with the government, refusing to vote is the worst thing one can do. I don’t see any problem with a church renting space for a polling place or local government community centers renting space to a church so long as they’re willing to rent to any church.
Section 16 of the Consitution of Virginia states that “No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever”.
Given that the Board of Supervisors makes decisions that materially and directly affect citizens, and that citizens provide input into the decision-making process during these meetings, a citizen may be considered to be compelled to attend these meetings to protect their material interest and rights. Prayer, either sectarian or nonsectarian, is a form of worship. Since citizens are at times compelled to attend meeting to protect their material interests and rights, prayer before BOS meetings violates Section 16 of the Constitution of Virginia (being compelled to frequent religious worship).
The BOS are paid a salary by the citizens via compulsory taxation. Probably the most important duty of this salaried position is conducting and making decisions at regularly held public meetings. For the BOS to sanction/mandate prayer, i.e. worship, as part of the meetings violates Section 16 of the Constitution of Virginia (being compelled to support religious worship).
Furthermore, choosing to have prayer at the meetings is a choice that will clearly and directly lead to being sued and incurring the taxpayer-funded costs of litigation for something that was not necessary or even constitutional. Again, the BOS choice of compulsory worship leads to litigation costs resulting in citizens being unconstitutionally compelled to support religious worship.
Screwzie quotes the Bible:
“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven, for where two or three come together in My name, there I am with them.
Matt. 18:19,20.”
Okay, is it two or is it three? Is the third person necessary to be the tie-breaker?
Kristen and I–the two of us–agree, as per the Scripture Screwzie quoted, that we’d both like new cars and boats. Should we go check our driveways?
How people in a nation are treated is not “trivial”, certainly not to God. He is very specific about leaders and how they are to lead. Just as Jesus is very specific about followers and how to follow. Do you believe you are doing the “business of God”?
Coming from little m matt, that is a compliment. I think that your own posts prove you have no clue what is angry and irrational, but that is certainly just an opinion. Counting someone’s exclamation points? Really? Is your degree in OCD?
If we’re going to have governmental sanctioned/compulsory prayer, why have prayer just at BOS meetings? Let’s put it into other govt situations. I propose prayer before getting serviced at the DMV. I’m picturing a short prayer followed by a short song or two by the DMV Choir. Perhaps one song could be about how God doesn’t want you to smile while getting your DL picture taken. It’s not even as ludicrous as prayer at BOS meetings because I’m sure nearly everyone that has gone to the DMV, perhaps even atheists, has resorted to some form of prayer waiting to be called.
This isn’t Facebook, Matt, calm down. Some people use exclamation points when they are excited, happy, angry, or perhaps when they are pointing out that someone else is being irrational. Just because you do not agree with another person’s rationality, and/or logic, does not mean that they are irrational and angry. Its called, Tolerant- Inclined to tolerate the beliefs, practices, or traits of others; forbearing; or, able to withstand or endure. Perhaps yourself and “PP” could use this definition to help you at your next meditation, or celestial dictator worship service. Whats sad is that you took the time out of your busy schedule on Xbox, and the riveting articles in the magazine, “Highlights for Children”, to count the exclamation points. But, what do I know… I am just a lowly rationalist that relies on facts and enjoys his sense of reading comprehension.
Interesting, ScottM…that Shaver person must be quite a character. I did laugh at the Newsweek cover and its “Antichrist” question…Obama’s as likely to be the tooth fairy as the “antichrist”.
Contra…I’m going to be adding a “Most Bestest Boater” award to my collection!
Sandi,
Rest assured, I certainly didn’t plan on counting all the sentences in which you were yelling. There were just so many that it reminded me of a small child, angry about not getting what it wants.
And, it’s funny to note that you brought up my degree…again. Psst, hey Sandi, what was YOUR degree in? (Crickets) Lol.
Jesus said, “when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret.” Matthew 6:6
…what’s hard to understand about this??
Funny stuff Sandi, That was fun.. but you still are a mystery to me.
I just have not figured out why you think im evil and judgmental. I judge actions NOT PEOPLE. Hate the sin, not the sinner.
I also am perplexed on your views of the Gospel. ..The Great Commission??
What denomination are you? The things you say on here are way off from most of the basic beliefs of the bible. How do your views line up with Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, John Hagee, Ravi Zacharias, Moody, Jonathan Edwards. These guys interpretation line up with mine and 95% of Christians in this country. How are your views so different?
@43 Kevin, makes an interesting point.
If one prayer before the meeting is good, then two must be better right? Why not stop the meeting every 10 mins for a touch-up prayer?
One can see the obvious absurdity in this. But I don’t think it absurd to look at it in reverse.
If prayer is OK just before the meeting, why not move it to 10 mins. before the meeting? Would an hour before the meeting work or does it’s efficacy wear off? If you can move it to an hour before the meeting, can you move to Sunday and maybe in a church or does locality matter too?
In fact, if it doesn’t matter how far back you move it, does it matter if you have a prayer at all?
Hi Justin False,
I imagine counting must not be a liberal attribute. You seem so shocked that someone took the time (a few seconds) to actually count the number of exclamation points in anothers’ rant. A rant that contained more yelling than any kind of rational and/or calm intellectual discourse. But, thanks for your completely non-partisan and unbiased opinion, Justin False. Now, speaking of busy schedules, isn’t there a park near you just waiting to be occupied and used as a toilet? No? Well, maybe your parent’s basement will do? Or, perhaps Sandi’s? Good luck with that, Justin False, as I don’t see there being enough oxygen for the both of you under one roof.
most ill-informed @ 33 posted,
“But you know what? The business of God is truly our business. Our manmade stuff is pretty trivial in comparison”. Comment by Suzie — September 27, 2012 @ 11:48 am
And this from someone who is so insecure they must brag about flying here or there [broom maybe?] – and boasts on the number of air conditioners – and how much money the spouse is making…
Why not do away with all that “man made” stuff – the answer: because you are a hypocrite. Every day you break many Catholic tenets and then you think you should “preach” to others about religion…way to funny.
“Suzie says:
If the atheists were truly consistent in their adherence to separation, they should abstain from voting if a church is their polling site.
Posted on September 27th, 2012″
Actually, if an atheist really has a problem with a church being a polling place, they can cast an absentee ballot.
I imagine any atheist who votes in a church feels that casting their ballot is more important than where it is cast. Kinda like your reasoning for voting for a Mormon. I mean, if you were truly consistent in your Catholicism, you would abstain from voting in any election where there were no Catholic candidates.
“Given the obvious power of prayer…..”
I’m pretty sure it works as good Enzyte, buy it is cheaper.
Man, just look at how riled up they get by a few exclamation points. Imagine how they’re gonna be when Obama is re-elected.
!
Re: Comment by Dan Casey — September 27, 2012 @ 11:25 am
Dan,
Was that irony, tongue-in-cheek, parody, satire, sarcasm or some other form of “I’m not being literally serious” or “there is a discrepancy between what I’m saying and what is meant?
Or, were you referring to others’ tongue-in-cheek, parody, satire, sarcasm or some other form of “I’m not being literally serious” or “there is a discrepancy between what I’m saying and what is meant?
Show me the beef, show me the …. — make that the font.
Show me the font, show me the font.
Ohhh Dano,
A few? I guess that makes sense, considering the source. A few = 11. Gotcha. Obama must have used similar logic when he said: “today I’m pledging to cut the deficit we inherited in half by the end of my first term in office.” Oops.
@54 – Pretty sure if he doesn’t win it will be 10X worse.
Sandi, that was a wonderfully pointed parody, and it’s no surprise that small mind matt didn’t realize that you were writing as the voice of pissed ol’ pete. Coupled with yesterdays’ fine op/ed letter, not to mention all you do to puncture the ignorance of teawingers here, you’re really hitting a great stride. Thank You!
Thanks Warren, coming from you sir, that means a lot!
@57 – Or 100x. Better get your ophones while they last, people.
Oh Warren, the true voice of reason on this blog. Complimenting Sandi’s angry rants are just par for the course for a pseudo-intellectual such as yourself. I tend to agree with John W. I believe he said you have absolutely no class. Yep, it shows. That John W is a smart guy.
As anyone who ever argued with or read VVarlock’s posts here knows, often times atheists are much more knowledgeable of the Bible, the history of the time and the big picture than almost anyone on the right wing who is thumping it.
Pistol Pete, I am a follower of Christ. If I have two coats I will give one away if someone needs it. I live simply, humbly and with the hope of being in the presence of God when this life is over.
I revere the Bible and appreciate the overall themes and stories, but I do not accept the Bible as the “literal” word of God because I have seen too many “men of God” hide their shame behind God and it is just not feasible for that to be a newfangled event.
I also have a serious and deep aversion to the Catholic Church and their control of so much of the Christian archives and I KNOW that the scriptures were chosen by man and arranged into the Bible. I know there were writings left out, Gospels we do not get to see and judge. Not to mention their hoarding of riches as people starve and their refusal of birth control and prophylactics even as they would save so many lives and so much suffering.
I take it on faith that Jesus said and did much of what is in the New Testament because Islam corroborates some of those same stories. And frankly, because I want to believe that something majestic, bigger than, better than, more intelligent than happenstance explains us and the earth and the continuum.
If I am wrong, I have risked nothing. I harm no one. If I am right, I will see God’s justice done. That alone is worth the effort and keeping the faith.
If it helps you any, I grew up in the Church of God, adored attending the Church of the Brethren and I have attended a United Methodist Church for a decade but I will never join until they accept full equal rights for all mankind.
I am not the least ashamed of my faith and I bear no ill will towards those who reject it. Free will has to be respected or it means nothing. Faith without works has no meaning IMO. The Bible is not a weapon.
Well said Sandi.
matt,
Obviously didn’t pray hard enough to get your brain to generate an adult response to my post. So, matt, you must digress into middle school, insecure, little boy rants. Thanks for affirming my thoughts on your level of ignorance; or to bring it down to your level–stupidity. Just remember, from now on when you speak, ask permission first. We adults are trying to have a conversation about some big-boy things. Do us a favor, don’t reproduce.
Oh, and take your hate and bigotry with you!!!!!!!!!!!<—– Don't waste your precious brain cells, there are eleven exclamation points.
Justin True
Justin False,
I absolutely love your reference to an “adult response.” Let’s look at a couple examples of “adult responses” from your first comment to me: 1)”Perhaps yourself and “PP” could use this definition to help you at your next meditation, or celestial dictator worship service.” 2) “Whats sad is that you took the time out of your busy schedule on Xbox, and the riveting articles in the magazine, “Highlights for Children”…
Oops! And then you have the nerve to take issue with my similar response. It never fails; treat a lib as they treat you and soon enough they are bound to piss and moan about it. I love the hypocrisy. As for reproducing, Justin False, I am comfortable that we don’t have to worry about your progeny running around any time soon. Women usually don’t take very well to whiny girly-men such as yourself. And I don’t hate you, Justin False. I’m just laughing at you.
I have a great idea for all the lib’s on this subject….
Instead of posting, just take a moment of silence on your response, and post your name….
Hey sandi, I believe in another post you praised mohammad… should that be illegal? After all, according to lib’s (particularly al gore) the gov’t invented the internet. Do they not therefore “own it” and inclusive this site?
We should be careful the paths we trod.
#26 From what I’ve seen, churches don;t force religion on you when you go there to vote. So your post makes no sense at all.
From what I’ve seen, schools with the Ten Commandments posted aren’t forcing religion on you when you enter those buildings either. What’s the difference?
Thanks for falling into it, Gdad. I was waiting to see which big fish I would reel in first. I thought it was going to be one of the atheist reg loons like Saintbridge, Warlock, or Mike Scott.
Justin False
Loving it!
your belief that your god belongs in everyones life whether they want it or not.
OG, that’s as ridiculous as your saying “I don’t want the Law of Gravity in my life anymore”. It’s there whether you like it or not, ace.
“After all, according to lib’s (particularly al gore) the gov’t invented the internet.”
mike O,
It’s not “according to libs” or Al Gore that the government invented the internet. Rather, it’s a well-established and known fact. The net was a product of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. It published the first plan for the net (it was called ARPANET) in 1966, and that built off other research DARPA had done in packet switching that dated back to 1961. By the end of 1969 there were 4 computers on ARPANET and over the next two years it added hundreds more.
The whole thing was built to be a tool research scientists could use to communicate and pool their computer resources.
http://www.internetsociety.org/internet/internet-51/history-internet/brief-history-internet#Origins
“We should be careful the paths we trod.”
I’m sorry, what?
Justin True, no doubt you are aware that certain types (matt, Matt, Walker, pammala and Suzie et al) have no substantive discussion to offer so they use the safety and anonymity that Roanoke.com allows, and the leeway Dan Casey allows to torment the people who dare to try. They are the stereotypical right wingers, bitter, hate-filled and ignorant and needing someone to blame. They post hate, lies and insults and rely on the negative attention which is the only kind they can inspire.
Mike O
Also see:
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp
and check out:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000125065813/http://www.mids.org/mn/904/vcerf.html
**
Vint Cerf responded to MSNBC
From http://www.msnbc.com:80/news/249325.asp (which has apparently subsequently timed out). See also “Revisionist Internet History.” —jsq
Vint Cerf responded to MSNBC’s questions about the Net’s origins with this e-mail:
VP Gore was the first or surely among the first of the members of Congress to become a strong supporter of advanced networking while he served as Senator. As far back as 1986, he was holding hearings on this subject (supercomputing, fiber networks…) and asking about their promise and what could be done to realize them. Bob Kahn, with whom I worked to develop the Internet design in 1973, participated in several hearings held by then-Senator Gore and I recall that Bob introduced the term “information infrastructure” in one hearing in 1986. It was clear that as a Senator and now as Vice President, Gore has made it a point to be as well-informed as possible on technology and issues that surround it.
As Senator, VP Gore was highly supportive of the research community’s efforts to explore new networking capabilities and to extend access to supercomputers by way of NSFNET and its successors, the High Performance Computing and Communication program (which included the National Research and Education Network initiative), and as Vice President, he has been very responsive to recommendations made, for example, by the President’s Information Technology Advisory Committee that endorsed additional research funding for next generation fundamental research in software and related topics. If you look at the last 30-35 years of network development, you’ll find many people who have made major contributions without which the Internet would not be the vibrant, growing and exciting thing it is today. The creation of a new information infrastructure requires the willing efforts of thousands if not millions of participants and we’ve seen leadership from many quarters, all of it needed, to move the Internet towards increased availability and utility around the world.
While it is not accurate to say that VP Gore invented Internet, he has played a powerful role in policy terms that has supported its continued growth and application, for which we should be thankful.
We’re fortunate to have senior level members of Congress and the Administration who embrace new technology and have the vision to see how it can be put to work for national and global benefit.
**
BTW you do know who Vint Cerf is, right? If not see: http://internethalloffame.org/inductees/vint-cerf
And you do know that Vint was was a program manager for the United States Department of Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) funding various groups to develop TCP/IP technology, right?
#67: And DARPA is to thank for the rolling start now being enjoyed by private enterprise in developing autonomous cars, which utilize a host of things developed for unmanned miltary land vehicles, as well as GPS and other government funded innovations. They are quickly reaching developmental maturity, and three states have passed laws allowing autonomous cars on the road.
How soon until the wingnuts start to complain about a government conspiracy to take away our freedom to drive, abetted (secretly of course) by big oil astroturf groups?
OOPS, I was replying to Dan @#70, but the numbers changed as I typed!
#67 School. Government agency. Church. Not. The SC has clearly ruled against your school scenario.
Thanks for attempting to play. You lose again.
Thanks Sandi. I appreciate your explanation. It all made sense when you said you didn’t believe the Bible to be the literal word of God. That’s where we differ.
@77 pistol pete, you mean you actually believe in talking serpents?
@77: And you believe a man survived 3 days underwater in the belly of a fish/whale? Noah’s taking of 2 of EVERY kind of animal on a boat? C’mon!
@77: And you also believe that a woman should be stoned for adultery, that it’s just fine to kill everything that moves in a certain area/village/town…just as long as the people are not in your tribe (the chosen)…oh I forgot, you are not supposed to kill the virgins…., that it’s an accepted revenge tactic to “dash infants against rocks”, and that slavery should be encouraged..again as long as those slaves are not taken from your own people?
If I was God and I had made a great book like the Holy Bible, I would’ve signed it.
Of course, since I’m God, my Bible would never be allowed to be changed or corrupted by a bunch of knucklehead humans who would use it an ambiguously selective rule book. You could set fire to it and it would not burn. You could try to change the words and they would instantly form back into my original message. Nothing would be able to change my words. My Bible would truly be infallible and indestructible. That “miracle” alone would be an undeniable testament to my power and glory. Through that one very simple act (after all, I’m omnipotent), very few would be able to deny my existence.
Then again, I’d never require my creations to bow down and worship me. Even if I did, I certainly wouldn’t allow some puny upstart challenger like Satan to come along and muck things up. I’m the pure embodiment of good, right? I would never allow my creations to experience or even understand evil. Evil is something that I, being all-good and all-powerful, wouldn’t allow to exist in my creation. Ego wouldn’t be allowed to get in the way, either.
I don’t need your servitude. I am omnipotent. I know every sin or bad decision that you’ll ever make. I am omniscient. I’ll be there for every single one of them, too. I am omnipresent. I forgave you before you even thought about asking.
But lo, I am not God. He does things just a little bit differently.
J.M. White you have been a fantastic addition to this blog. Please stick around for awhile.
hey J.M White, with your style of “God”, no one would need faith, would they?
And, who would you appoint to keep the folks like ‘ol dano, sandi, and a few rw’ers in line, eh? Would that entity be an extension of you, images of you, or, would that entity end up being self-appointed…like gasp! human beings like deciples, priests, rabbis, clerics, and so forth?
Would your message be one of love? What would your message be to those of your flock who conspired against you…or, to those of your flock who went to kneel at the feet of some charismatic speaker who was devoted to satan….who you said you wouldn’t tolerate?
What would you do to those who, in their worship of satan (i know, you said YOU wouldn’t permit satan…to “muck things up…”), dared to attack your peaceful flock? Would you say, “what the heck”?, and go about your business and look for another flock? or, would you join satan’s apparantly successful band of merry men, or would you just fade away, leaving what was your world…, to satan?
J.M. White, I did enjoy reading your missive, and I do find comfort in simple, plain old, faith…. along with some manifest destiny, and a few sprinkles of randomness mixed in for good measure.
Faith is the problem, Frank. As much good as it can do, it can be (and often is) just as easily used for evil. I, as God, would remove the problems of faith.
All you need is my Bible. If you doubt my power, try to destroy it or try to alter it. You won’t be able to and there will be your truth – your evidence of my divinity.
I see you can’t fathom a universe without strife and conflict and sin. I would fix that for you and you wouldn’t even have to ask. I’d have no need to “appoint” anyone to keep anyone else in line. Anyone following my Bible would have no need to police themselves for they would know no evil.
Life would truly be bliss for all of my creations and you wouldn’t have to jump through hoops for it, either. I’m not just talking about Earth or human beings, Frank. Evil would simply not exist in my universe, nor would its concept. Satan wouldn’t exist – couldn’t exist. There would be no dissent or strife. I’m all-powerful, remember? Erasing evil from all of existence would take less than a thought for a God of my omnipotence. That renders all but one of your questions immaterial.
Of course mine would be a message of love. How could it be anything but? I’m the pure embodiment of good, remember? I won’t allow my creations to even know what suffering is.
I created everything, right? Why would I create evil, unleash it on you and then make you repent for it? That falls under the mantle of sadism and I, as an all-good God, cannot be a sadist.
Do you not see the paradox?
Simple logical deduction: God created everything, therefore God created evil.
God now wants His creations to apologize for another of his creations.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’m sorry if these words rock some peoples’ foundations. This is where, on the rare occasions when I do rant on religion, someone invariably says that I have the Devil in me, they’ll pray for me or whatever platitude eases their confused mind. That’s okay, though; I understand how scary those words must be to contemplate.
BTW, I’m NOT an atheist. I may believe that the universe is largely indifferent to our collective existence, but that in no way means I discount the possibility that someone or something had a hand in our condition.
For the record, I’m not completely against faith, either. I abhor misplaced faith, but properly focused and tempered faith can enable us to achieve great and wondrous things. The problem is that very, very few of us know the difference between the two.
I understand your point J.M. White. Neither faith nor the Bible should be a weapon. Too many make sure that both are perceived that way. Fear and condemnation can bring a child to God (and have them live in some state of fear) but it cannot bring grown people willingly, hopefully and enthusiastically to God, to faith or to Jesus. Right wingers are so “secure” in “their” faith, they truly forget their mission IMO. Not that I will have to answer for them in the end, but the results of their efforts should dawn on a smart person at some point…oh wait, this blog proves that simply does not happen.
I am loving reading all the creative and intelligent comments on Dan’s blogs. We truly have some sharp minds in our area, and I’m thankful for the support. I realize, as J.M. White has said and also Sandi, that not everyone who agrees (at least in part) with me is an atheist or non-believer, and that’s as it should be. The point is that we all need to be free to be who we are without discrimination…as long as we do no harm. This is why separation of church and state is so extremely important.
As an atheist/secular humanist, I can tell you that I have faith. I have faith that the application of reason and science can steer us toward the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems. I have faith in the natural human capacity to choose good over “evil”…that is right over wrong…. without the expectation of reward in another life. I am trying to have faith that one day we will have a more open and pluralistic society protecting human rights from repressive majorities and that we will have more justice and fairness in society by eliminating discriminatioin and intolerance. I have faith that we can take responsibility for our own lives and that we can do that with integrity, honesty, and compassion for others…again with no expectation of reward either in the present or future.
The idea that religion invented morality is absurd. We all have a natural proclivity to cooperate with and help each other. The principle of the golden rule is not only pre-historic but also pre-human, as much of the animal kingdom practices this natural caring and cooperation. Morality only breaks down when humans try to control others through some type of dogma …whether through religion or some other type of indoctrination.
Again, I am enjoying and learning so much. Thank you, Dan, and everyone who is contributing.
hey J.M., I don’t believe I mentioned the Bible. I do believe that personal faith trumps organized faith. I do believe that faithful humans are, well, human, and subject to and at risk to, human short-comings, theirs as well as others’. hence, in my mind, all the more need for faith.
I was reminded of the “free-will” aspect of faith by Sandi….which is in my opinion the most important aspect of what I believe is true faith. Thank you, Sandi.
And, I like most, but not all, of your train of thought, J.M. Thanks for sharing good thoughts.
Thanks,
Frank
Re: Comment by Judith Rauchle — September 30, 2012 @ 2:34 pm
“We all have a natural proclivity to cooperate with and help each other.”
———
I wish that I could agree with you.
However, I have seen far too much greed, contempt, selfishness, hate, pure evil, etc in the world to do so.
IMHO, even your “Morality only breaks down when …”, itself, calls into question that “natural proclivity to cooperate with and help each other.” Where does the breakdown in that “natural proclivity” come from, if there is not also a “natural proclivity” toward greed, selfishness, hate, pure evil, etc in human nature?
It is that “greed, selfishness, hate, pure evil, etc” that keeps me from being a true liberal. To me much of their dogma is just wishful thinking or magic thinking that is out of touch with the real world and ignores the side-effects / unintended consequences of their proposals. (BTW, the real world experience and ignoring the side-effects / unintended consequences of right wing’s proposals, also, keeps me from being a true conservative.
As an INTJ, my primary interest is not understanding a concept, but rather applying that concept in a useful way. Therefore I ruthlessly apply the criterion “Does it work?” to everything from the prevailing social norms to politics to religion to etc. That in turn frees from the constraints of authority, convention, dogma, sentiment, etc for its own sake. Having seen a great deal of the world and in it pure evil I can not buy a natural proclivity to cooperate with and help each other or much of the liberal political dogma.
As always, YMMV.
RE: Comment by Dave Hicks — September 30, 2012 @ 6:21 pm
“It is that “greed, selfishness, hate, pure evil, etc” that keeps me from being a true liberal. To me much of their dogma is just wishful thinking or magic thinking that is out of touch with the real world and ignores the side-effects / unintended consequences of their proposals.”
Dave,
I realize you also said the same of “right wing proposals”, but I’ve had a few life experiences of my own. I’m no spring chicken by any means, and believe me, I live my life with no “wishful and magical thinking”. There’s not too much “Pollyanna” blood in this old body. We all have different experiences in our lives, and I have not spent mine in a cocoon of delusion.
I don’t know how you conclude that because I’m a “liberal” and want human beings to progress in a positive direction that I also would just automatically ignore any “side effects and unintended consequences” of actions on either side of the question. On the contrary, our actions and our moral principles should be tested by their consequences. When they are not, that’s when greed and selfishness take over.
As far as your philosophy of “what works” being the answer, that’s fine as long as you want a society to progress in the right direction. I suppose genocide could “work” for some if you want to look at it that way….but it will not ultimately work toward a healthy society and will eventually, over time, destroy that society. I’m a big fan of Darwin, and he never introduced nor promoted the harmful concept of “social Darwinism”. I’m not saying that’s your philosophy, but I really can’t tell from your comments exactly what is. I think we humans have been around long enough to realize that what works best for survival is true cooperation….otherwise we eventually end up destroying ourselves. That’s exactly how the most productive societies “work”. Can we always achieve that? No…but does that mean we shouldn’t strive to make the world a better place by at least attempting to promote it in our actions?
We have highly evolved social instincts and we also have retained some of our more primitive instincts. These seem to be manifested more toward those we consider to be the “other”….those we consider to be different from us. But, even at “primitive” (less positively evolved levels) of social behavior, we have learned/realized that in order to live together in communities (as we must in order to survive) we have to have some basic mutual understandings and ground rules. This very basic idea was worked out, evolved, as a practical, social necessity ….independent of any “magical thinking or wishing”.
So, I don’t believe in the concept of “original sin”. I’m not saying that some people don’t have an inclination toward antisocial behavior…those are the people who will prove what does NOT “work”. I’m saying that the antisocial behavior is not the natural norm, since it doesn’t help us survive as a species. Of course, if this antisocial greed, hatred, etc. is cultivated and promoted by a large enough group (as some religions and other ideologies have)….meaning the control of enough people to make it dominant, we then arrive at precisely the state of our country and much of the world right now. And that’s why we “liberals” need to promote the opposite…some form of positive cooperation. That’s not wishful thinking and not dogma….that’s a commitment to working toward that and to action. In the end, it’s the only thing that “works”…the survival so far of our species has proven that if nothing else. When it breaks down, we all suffer. That’s very real…not magical in any way. We still survive at this point in time, because overall (as a species),we still have more cooperation than total chaos, but it seems that many of us are very selfish and are opposed to working together in order to solve our local and global problems. Those people are usually not considered to be “liberals”. I am opposed to any institution or ideology which seeds, supports and promotes this greed and hatred.
And this takes me back to the original topic….separation of church and state. Without it, we are promoting more control, more hatred, less tolerance (and therefore less cooperation) and ultimately a gargantuan step backwards in “what works” best for all of us.