Can America’s middle-class learn something from France?
If we apply conservative American economic and political dogma to France, that country should have imploded decades ago.
Here’s a short list of France’s blasphemous offenses towards self-evident laws of prosperity, as defined by America:
• A debt-to-GDP ratio of 90%.
• Average GDP growth from 1978 to present of 0.5%.
• A top tax bracket of 45%. The new government has proposed a “millionaire surcharge” effectively creating a 75% top tax rate.
• Universal health care and national health insurance.
• Labor laws that require a 3 to 6 month process to fire an employee, after which the employer incurs further costs for up to an additional year if the former employee stays unemployed.
• Perpetually high single-digit or even double-digit unemployment rates.
• State investment and management of industry, highlighted by companies such as Renault, EADS/Airbus, France Telecom, and SNCF, the French National Railway Corp.
• $8 per-gallon gas.
But rather than imploding, France is doing just fine. That applies particularly to its middle class. Consider the following:
• All three of the giant American ratings agencies rate France AAA, as compared to S&P’s AA+ rating of the U.S.
• According to the last World Health Organization Survey of health care systems, France was rated No. 1 in quality and No. 4 in costs. By contrast, the U.S. health care system was rated No. 37 in quality and No. 1 in cost.
• French workers get full-benefits retirement at age 60.
• There’s five weeks annual vacation for all full-time employees, plus numerous national holidays.
• France has a first-rate education system.
• French national infrastructure is the envy of the world. This includes perfectly maintained roads and highways, the amazing high-speed train network (TGV), and ubiquitous broadband Internet.
Of course France has its problems. There are assimilation issues with the large numbers of black and Muslim immigrants from its former colonies. There are economic issues caused by the Euro crisis and EU integration, etc. Nevertheless, the French middle class is doing quite fine and there are few who have any interest in trading it for our American way of life.
I suspect that most Americans’ gut reaction to the above is to argue the French system is unsustainable. However, with a few adjustments along the way, the French system has been in place since the end of World War II. That is long-term sustainability.
How do they do it? I don’t have the answers to that one. But I suspect two factors play large roles.
The first is military spending. U.S. defense spending is larger than the next 10 highest countries combined! It accounts for 25% of our budget, and apparently, that does not include overseas spending. While France’s GDP is about 15% of U.S.’s, its defense spending is only about 3.5% of U.S.’s.
The second issue is whether GDP growth automatically translates into improving the lives of the middle class. Could it be American-style capitalism has evolved so the middle-class benefits of GDP growth are disproportionately small and on a trajectory to shrink even further?
The fact is that while U.S. GDP has been growing at a reasonable clip since 1990, the average middle-class income has been stagnant or dropping. This is a bipartisan phenomena, given that we’ve had 12 years of Clinton & Obama and 10 years of Bush & Bush during this period.
It’s time for the American middle class to reassess and question the economic and political dogma that has taken root over the last 30 years in the U.S. The Reagan Revolution has had a good 30+ year run, but times have changed.
We can’t keep tweaking the status quo and hope for fundamental improvements. America needs to find a visionary leader willing to prune away obsolete dogma and set a new course for the next 30 years.
That course should be a new American way. But the new way must take into consideration the modern hyper-connected world, and pay attention to what works in it — and what doesn’t.
October 3, 2012 - 6:00 AM
How many people live in France? How many in the United States? I also love how mark has no solutions. “We need to reassess” and vote out Obama is all I read.
And since you’re not Living in America, the middle class has been buried the past 4 years.
Do you not watch the nightly news or read articles from other sources. Your rosy picture is completely different from what I’m seeing. The last few days has shown a real bleak outlook for France.
1. 50%+ unemployment of the younger generation
2. overall unemployment at 20%+
3. multi-generational homes where no one is working
4. lines of people eating out of dumpsters, and it’s the only food they can afford
From what I’ve been able to ascertain from reading and/or watching other media, they did what every other person / country did in the last few decades. They assumed the good times would last forever. We’ve spent every nickle that came in and neglected to plan for the ‘bad’ times. We cannot sustain the status quo any longer and gov’t spending must be reined in. If not, we might find ourselves in the same situation here in the USA.
I am swamped at work today, so I can’t devote the time to addressing this ridiculous post yet. But at first blush, I think the French should invite those peace loving Russians and Indians over to teach them how to get along with blacks and Muslims. More later.
hey Mark,
what do you think vp joe meant the other day when he said, “the middle class has been.. BURIED ..over the past four years”? Of course, he was talking about America’s middle class.
wasn’t vp joe the, ah, vp during the past four years?
But rather than imploding, France is doing just fine.
You have to be freaking joking. They’re on the verge of bankruptcy right there with Greece and Spain.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/thomaspascoe/100018992/why-france-is-on-the-road-to-becoming-the-new-greece/
France’s unemployment was 10% back in the mid 2000s when Bush had ours down to 5%. Yeah, they don’t spend much on the military but guess who they get to fight their battles, as they did in Iraq. This is the original white-flag tuck-tail country.
As for heslth care, the United States leads the world in private R&D spending. Oddly, that expense used as a pejorative by the left as they lump it with government spending on health care. What does France do in the R&D area? That’s what the hell I thought.
So it looks like the biggest thing America can learn from France is what NOT to do. But if you notice, we are doing the same things they did as they slide towards insolvency.
“there are few who have any interest in trading it for our American way of life.”
Really!!!?! Holy cow. You mean they think their country is great!?! What! This is some kind of crazy, new concept. I would bet that 90% of any population of a country would never want to change their ways for another way. Mark I think you fit into the 10%.
Oh, also… the US is roughly 5 times the size of France and roughly 3 times the size of your beloved Russia in population. Not exactly fair comparisons.
Shouldn’t Mark be citing sources of information as well?
Notice Mark makes no mention of unemployment in France which hovers in the mid teens. No need to work when all of your cradle to grave needs are provided by government.
I wouldn’t choose to live there, but I have some friends who go frequently for work and vacations and absolutely love it. Some of their friends live in or near Paris, and have said they will continue living there as long as they can.
The one thing I’ve never liked about the French, though, is the air of smugness often given off. This is exemplified with their wine industry. More than 30 years ago, they were truly at the top of the wine world, with their products generally regarded as superior to the competition.
But, wineries around the world began catching up, and surpassing those in France. Places like California, Australia, South America, New Zealand, etc started producing top-notch vino, and beating out French wines in taste testing. The most notorious was the Judgement of Paris, in which 2 Califorina wineries bested French ones.
But, the French vintners, convinced of their superiority, discounted the tasting competitions as biased (organized by a Brit) and that their wines were still the best. They were so convinced of this that most failed to keep up with marketing their wines around the world, thinking it would sell itself simply by virtue of being French wine.
Well, fast forward to today: the French wine industry has largely imploded under the weight of unsold inventory, price collapses due to the glut of unsold wine, and impending bankruptcies of hundreds (maybe more) of vintners. It’s so bad that millions of liters of wine got distilled into ethanol!
Wineries around the world have supplanted French products in sales, quality, and reputation. My local Kroger, as an example, had fewer than a dozen French wine varieties…but dozens from various countries in South America (Chile and Argentina primarily), Autralia, New Zealand, and even Portugal, Spain, and Italy. Not to mention the huge variety of domestic wine from here in the Commonwealth all the way to California.
But to most of the French wine makers, they remain convinced of their own superiority, even in the face of facts that they aren’t…and it will lead to their ultimate demise.
Sound familiar?
Ten posts in and not one defending this Communist blather. Leftwingers know there isn’t much they can defend here. Either that or they haven’t gotten up yet.
OtherJohn, have you ever seen the movie Bottle Shock? It’s the true story of a California wine that won a competition in France in 1976. With your interest and knowledge of the subject, you’d like the movie.
Terps#8 – “Notice Mark makes no mention of unemployment in France which hovers in the mid teens”
Better read again Terps. I certainly do mention it.
Mo#3. You ought to do some fact checking before hitting that “Post Comment” button.
To you and some of the others who posted about France’ dire straights, please do remember that all 3 Major U.S. rating agencies still rate France AAA.
But this is not the point. The point is that the American middle class has been getting a bad deal not just under Obama – its been a bad deal since 1990. That’s 12 years of Dems and 10 years of GOP. The Reagan Revolution of 1980 made sense for the time. I believe its time for an equally charasmatic leader as Reagan to emerge and lead an equivelent fundamental change that focuses on giving a fair break to the middle class.
All of you who joined me to point out France’ faults, many incorrectly,should ask yourself, how is it possible that the middle class has it as good as it does. And, that, among other things, includes unemployment benefits which make being unemployed not such a tramatic event as it is in the U.S.
I assume most of you on this blog fall into the category middle class Americans, like myself. Join me in exploring why we have gotten such a raw deal for the last 22 years. The GDP is growing, but we the middle class keep seeing our financial situation eroding. I believe this is what we should be discussing, in a civilized bi-partisan manner.
Kristen, I’ll have to look that up. I haven’t heard of it, but it sounds interesting. The IMDb snippet I found said it’s based on the Judgement of Paris competition. The cast roster looks impressive enough, not sure why I wasn’t aware of this movie…
OtherJohn, I think we got it streaming on Netflix. I have no memory of it ever being in theatres, but I thought it was great.
#8 Hey, terps:
“Perpetually high single-digit or even double-digit unemployment rates.”
Geez, maybe you need to go back to your insights about the OWSers in Elmwood.
My cousin has lived in Paris for many years now and while he would agree that many of the French are too smug, he also likes many things about it. He also makes much better money there than he could here.
Gdad#17 – Your cousin mentions that many of the French are to smug.
Question – How do you think the French, and Europeans in general, would describe the attitudes of the Americans posting comments on this thread (as well as the Prague and Fort Ross threads)? Would they call it smug? Or something more colorful?
Gdad, while I do not live in France, over the years I have worked for and with French companies. Currently, business takes me to France often, and I work on a daily basis with a number of French colleagues.
Lovely and cultured people. Beautiful country. Really fun cities. There is a reason why France is perpetually one of the top tourist and vacation destinations of the world.
#18 MarkJ, I believe their descriptions would be something comparable to “looney tunes”.
I love France… it’s got mountains, beaches, great cities, and fabulous countryside. Adam Gopnik has a book out called “From Paris to the Moon” where he talks about the 5 years he and his family lived in Paris…it makes Parisian life sound very tempting.
MarkJ, I’d hope that no one in France would judge all America from this blog. I don’t think the people there have any more uniform characteristics than we here in America do, or less positive ones.
Kristen#21. Thanks for the comment. It is becoming a recuring theme on this blog. I have hear really nasty hateful comments about the people of the middle east, Russians, Czech and French. The comments towards the South African Bishop Tutu weren’t the greatest either.
But today’s essay is not about France. It is about about the fact that since 1990 the American middle class has been getting screwed. The causes are systemic and it has happend on the watch of Democrats and Republicans. Please see my comment #13.
It astounds me that the participants of this blog, the very people being affected, have no desire to discuss this subject. Rather they prefer bashing everyone who doesn’t belong to their tribe.
Sorry for gross generalisation regarding partipants of this blog. Certainly, there are many exceptions, including folks like yourself and Gdad.
Unemployment in France isn’t the family catastrophe that it is here because people STILL HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE that isn’t tied to their jobs the way it is here. There’s also a more comprehensive safety net in France, as in many countries in Europe.
Why the middle class here just gets constantly screwed, I can’t answer, and you’re correct in that it’s a constant regardless of who’s in the White House. I don’t think the answer is 5 weeks of vacation or early retirement, and those sort of perqs don’t address the underlying problems of repressed wages and incorrectly apportioned tax burdens.
Kristen#24, I couldn’t agree with you more. In my essay, I suggested the following two areas that play a significant role:
1. the enormous funding burden placed on the American middle class to fund the so called Department of Defense. This Department was called the Department of War until 1947. Probably that name is more appropriate now that it ever was from 1789 – 1947. The middle class should look to see if it is happy with the results of this spending, and whether they want it to continue on the same track.
2. The systemic structure has evolved so that the middle class gets screwed out of its fair share of GDP growth. This is influenced by corporate American, its lobbying influence on government and the revenue raising methods of the US government. By revenue raising methods, I mean that folks like Warren Buffet who admit to having a lower effective tax rate than his secretary.
In short, before Reagan, the power of unions and various great society legislation swung the pendulum to far towards socialism and against business and enterprise. The Reagan Revolution reversed the direction of the pendulum. After 30 years of Reagan Revolultion, the pendulum has now swung to far in the direction of big business and captains of industry. Its time for someone to start the pendulam’s motion back towards the center again.
#18 I’m sorry, MarkJ, I was incomplete in my remark. My cousin’s comment was in regard to the French attitude about their national soccer team more than anything. Too smug for his taste.
My cousin has lived there for more than 20 years, has a French girlfriend, and is probably nearly as “French” or European as he is American now. He plays a progressive style of jazz drum all over the continent and is VERY happy that Europeans appreciate his talent more than do Americans. He was also certainly happy to have been there when he started suffering from a congenital heart ailment and the French health system paid for him to see one of the top experts on his problem in the world. He still sees him regularly, and this doctor even looked for free at the tests of two young family members back here in the U.S. who were having potential problems.
I don’t want to even think what Europeans think of many Americans.
Oh c’mon, gdad. We all know that anyone who gets sick outside the US just dies on some waiting list! You lie, sir!
Since France is so vibrant, why don’t we let them protect themselves and the rest of the free countries, while they also find innovations in health care, space exploration, modern warfare and take the lead in assisting countries in need from emergencies and natural disasters, they could also throw a few billion our way in foreign aid and we might be in better shape.
#27 If my cousin had come back to the U.S. with that heart condition and unable to get insurance because of the pre-existing condition, he’s likely be dead by now. Either that or his family would be bankrupt.
Pretty sure the French would easily say “taire grandes gueules dans des maisons de verre!” or ‘shut up big mouths who live in glass houses!’
MarkJ,
Many years ago, I worked with a group w/ some members/representatives from France. One of the US citizens in the group had made some comment about the lack of French smugness in the French Representatives.
One of the Frenchmen replied, “Make you a deal. I’ll not judge you by the manners of alleged Americans driving NYC cabs and you don’t judge us by the manners of the alleged French waiters in NYC.”
.
#28 If you’re proposing that we cut our military and stop babysitting the whole world, I’m right there with you, mike O. Including Israel. But right wingers are insisting that Obama is trying to cut the military when it needs to grow.
How convenient. Gdad has a “cousin” who can get a job in socialist France but not here, well, even though their unemployment is even worse than ours. That’s about as believable as his character “Contra”.
Re: Comment by MarkJ — October 3, 2012 @ 12:01 pm
Bad analogy — without taking into consideration what some here would think of / would describe the attitudes of some of the Americans posting comments on this thread (as well as the Prague and Fort Ross threads).
An Afro-american friend of mine was working in Poland during the lead up to a US POTUS election. Someone asked him what the Blacks in the US thought about some hot issue. He replied that there were some 30+M Black Americans or Afro-Americans over here, (IOW about the same population as all of Poland) and that he couldn’t speak for the US Blacks on a decisive issue any more than his Polish questioner could speak for all of Poland.
Like the NYC cabs drivers or “French” waiters, non-scientifically selected subgroups seldom represent the universe of a population.
Re: Comment by gdad — October 3, 2012 @ 6:51 pm
+1
anyone notice that ol’ gdummy has yet to get up the gumption to leave our horrid land, and go live in france? go for it, gdummy. you can cash your gov’mint check over there.
#36 Frank, you seem to be even more ignorant than suzie or pammalalaland.
#33 Umm, he’s been working more than 20 years in Europe, troll. Well known in the jazz world there (some blues as well). I sent Dan a youtube video of him playing because I thought MarkJ might be interested, but since it has his name on it, I didn’t want it posted here. Can’t have a handful of dolts like you knowing who he is.
Our own Brad Jones aka Buster B. Jones was well-loved in France. He played there quite a bit, I believe. Rest his gifted soul.
http://youtu.be/WU5uVjjK1t8
http://youtu.be/eK9UUCKVw4o
gdad#38 – I look forward to seeing the video. Thank you. And thank you for your consistantly thoughtful comments.
I confess. My essay failed to achieve the discussion that I had hoped for and that is clearly needed.
Even though it did not happen here, American middle class needs to discuss why it is not getting its fair share of the wealth generated by America. Why its wealth is not growing since 1990, while the wealth of America as measured by the GDP is growing.
The American middle class needs to ask itself – If its not getting its share, where is this wealth going. After identifying that, it must decide if it wants to reprioritize in ways that are more beneficial to the middle class of America.
I used France in the essay as an example of a country where perhaps a disproportionatly large amount of wealth goes to the middle class. France generates less wealth, but more goes to the middle class. How do they do it? One large example is that they don’t spend nearly as much time killing people in far away lands and trying to install puppet governments. That on th other hand results in less people hating them. Which completes a virtuous circle of not needing to spend as much money on homeland security (i.e. real defense).
Military spending and foreign policy is of course not the only expendeture that France and U.S. prioritize differently, but it is an obvious example and a big elephant in the room.
Mike O#28 28.Since France is so vibrant, why don’t we let them protect themselves and the rest of the free countries, while they also find innovations in health care, space exploration, modern warfare
Mike O – Free world? That term lost any relevance since the cold war ended over 20 years ago. Who in your opinion is America protecting and against who? If there ever was a global consensus it is against America’s militaristic actions around the globe. The world doesn’t want it, America can’t afford it, and its costing the American middle class.
Regarding innovation in health care, as my essay pointed out, U.S. is ranked 37 in quality and 1st in cost. France, 1st in quality and 4th in cost. Gdad has pointed out an anecdotal example supporting this subject.
Oh, and regarding space exploration, the EU leading a lot of interesting work in this area and other pure science. Research their contribution to the Int’l Space Station. CERN is also a one of a kind Research center.
Mike O – I trust you are part of Middle Class America. Why has none of the American GDP growth since 1990 gone to you and the rest of the middle class? Do you know why? Are you happy about it? Are you ready to explore repioritization options that will allow the American Middle Class to benefit as the GDP grows?
“Mike O – I trust you are part of Middle Class America. Why has none of the American GDP growth since 1990 gone to you and the rest of the middle class? Do you know why? Are you happy about it? Are you ready to explore repioritization options that will allow the American Middle Class to benefit as the GDP grows?”
Allow me to answer for mike O: It’s because he didn’t deserve it. He didn’t work hard enough to deserve it. Other people deserved it.
“My essay failed to achieve the discussion”
It wasn’t well written. It also fails to account for the population differences. 300+ million vs. 65+million.
#40 You’re welcome.
♫ Whatever happened to Randolph Scott
has happened to the best of me. ♫
I still think that these two commentaries tell the tale:
Four Deformations of the Apocalypse
How the GOP Became the Party of the Rich
The inside story of how the Republicans abandoned the poor and the middle class to pursue their relentless agenda of tax cuts for the wealthiest one percent
Add to that the complicit money whores in the Democratic Party and away this nation went. There is virtually no one “speaking truth to power” anymore. Power has learned it needs the money of the wealthy to get re-elected.
Somebody sure had our number, one of he best presidents we ever had:
Theodore Roosevelt
The last great Republican
“…At every stage, and under all circumstances, the essence of the struggle is to equalize opportunity, destroy privilege, and give to the life and citizenship of every individual the highest possible value both to himself and to the commonwealth.
… this means that our government, National and State, must be freed from the sinister influence or control of special interests. Exactly as the special interests of cotton and slavery threatened our political integrity before the Civil War, so now the great special business interests too often control and corrupt the men and methods of government for their own profit. We must drive the special interests out of politics.
…The absence of effective State, and, especially, national, restraint upon unfair money-getting has tended to create a small class of enormously wealthy and economically powerful men, whose chief object is to hold and increase their power.“
Sorry, forgot to notice the hyperlink was not off!
MarkJ, given the mentality of almost all of Dan’s right wing bloggers, your talents and perspective are somewhat wasted. Since there is apparently no separating the wheat from the chaff, it is catch what you can as far as intelligent discussion goes. It is too bad really, because you, like Dan, make some excellent points and ask some excellent, but integrity required questions.
I think America’s middle class forgot where they came from, what got them their status and became too complacent and satisfied. We should all be working hard for the generations to come after us. The poor have done the best they could, the rich have achieved and closed every door behind them they could. The middle class has languished and allowed the current to take them on the ride without realizing the falls ahead.
As I always say, forget your roots, you deserve to fail. Ever watch the movie, “A Face in the Crowd
How about the Bible story of The Wise and Foolish Builders?
We have lost our way.
#40 BTW, MarkJ, if you want you can look him up in the jazz encyclopedia online to see more about his career. I loved it when he lived in New Orleans because he got us into all the good stuff — the Neville Brothers at Tipitina’s for one — free. We plan to visit him in Paris and a friend in Cologne next spring.
I think Mark is letting Dan use his name and mug so that he can go even more socialist and wacky without taking the flak. This is super nutty! I’m surprised the Roanoke Times even allows this kind of stuff in the blog section.
John Brown #50. Please explain what is socialist and wacky about the fact that the US Middle Class income stagnating, or going down, over the last 20 years, while the GDP has grown at a reasonable clip?
I would even be more curious to know why you are happy with that fact and want more of the same.
Now what would people born and raised in another country know about their country that we Americans don’t know better?
Say what you will about the French, but Americans have solidly cornered the global market on… arrogance.
It seems that some people just can’t fathom the idea that someone out there is doing better than we are. And for what? Because some country governs differently than we do? Nevermind that we’d still be sipping hot tea with milk and speaking the Queen’s English if it weren’t for the French. That’s just an inconvenient fact that gets in the way of, “AMERICA! #$@& YEAH!”
They’re just a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkeys, after all. Who cares if they gave us one of our most revered icons in this country? Who cares if they were instrumental in the liberation this country from the British Empire? Oh yeah, they were pretty handy in our dealings with the Natives, too, but like I said, who cares?
Please forgive the over-saturation of sarcasm above.
Another well-written article, Mark. I’m sorry it didn’t have the intended effect. Thank you for being a level-headed, rational ambassador for us. I certainly hope that none of your friends over there are as judgmental, dismissive and narrow-minded as so many of us seem to be. We’re not all like that, I promise.
Cue some clueless jackass telling me that if I don’t like it here, I can just leave.
J.M:White,
I want to thank you and all the others who have given me words of encouragement. It means a lot to me. I seem to have the bad habit of not responding to folks who make a point that I agree with, focusing more on those that make reasonably serious points of disagreement.
#52 “Cue some clueless jackass telling me that if I don’t like it here, I can just leave.”
Note that we’ve already had Frank the clueless jackass say that very thing. It’s pretty much like mentioning Hitler or the Nazis, once you resort to it, everybody knows you’re brainless.
gdad#49. The YouTube clip blew me away. What a tight group. Glen Ferris is incredible.
My wife and I spent our honeymoon in New Orleans. It was a magical time. We somehow got “adopted” by a jazz band that played/partied after the bars in the French Quarters closed down. They would lock the doors to this restaurant and keep on playing and partying. The musicians were all over the place – behind the bar, at tables, on the stage. Earlier in the evening they played seperately, at various bars, mostly very commercial music. It was like Dr. Jekell and Mr. Hide.
One of our biggest regrets was when at 3:00am they said they had a 48 hour private gig for some “important guy” at his fabulous mansion deep in the bayous. They were ready to packs into one of the cars. Unfortunately, we had our return flight later that day, so we punked out.
I doubt JohnBrown even read the piece. With certain whackos, all you have to do is say “France” and they preemptively start squawking.
There are certain people here whom I suspect have never left their own holler, much less the country. It’s probably better that way.
#55 Glad you enjoyed it. We got to see a full Glenn Ferris show. Amazing.
New Orleans can be an amazing place to visit.
MarkJ, perhaps it’s because I’m a relatively young 32, and have been accustomed to the economic realities of today for most of my adult life, but I am doing better today than ever before, personally. But, I’ve only been in the full-time career-based workforce since 2004, so just as my career was getting going, the economy tanked. I left one job due to incredible uncertainty and the looming threat of layoffs, in 2006. Then, just 2 years later, I had to let the 2 people working for me go in early summer 2008 due to the development market being completely gone. A couple months later, I had to find another job as well. Now, 4 years later, I’m in a much more stable career position, making more than I ever have, and we’re in better financial shape than ever as well.
But, that said, we have a lot of concerns for the future. The ACA helped fix 2 huge concerns for us: it eliminated the possibility of my wife being denied health insurance coverage due to preexisting chronic health conditions she has (and always will, they’re genetic), and the possibility of facing a cutoff for hitting lifetime coverage caps (we fully anticipate a lot of costly procedures some 30 years down the line). So the threat of it being repealed concerns us greatly…it not only would impact her health directly, but our financial well-being.
Then, the continual push by conservatives to massively overhaul Medicare and Social Security, effectively removing people my age from ever being able to claim benefits as currently defined, also concerns me. What happens if I’m forced into a privatization? Will I, and my wife, get a reimbursement of our lifetime payroll contributions? Or, will that money simply be seized and rolled into the government coffers, never to be seen again? Will we have really paid some 8% of our incomes for nothing, and have to start over by trying to make up for that confiscation of money by investing heavily in the stock market, hoping to realize enough high-yield gains to offset the loss?
Then, more directly for me, what about the funding mechanisms for our infrastructure? As it is, funding is barely keeping up with an already reduced maintenenance schedule and cannot fund a lot of critical upgrades and new construction that is sorely needed, to maintain our public servies, roads, bridges, highways, etc. Will we continue letting the infrastructure degrade to a point where it is no longer functional? Or, will we sell it off to the highest bidder, who will then levy large fees to use them (i.e. tolls on roads)? Or, will we realize we need to invest at the government level, for the good of our economy and the citizens, and revamp the revenue streams accordingly, to improve our infrastructure to make of for decades of under-funding, and to provide the funds to construct the thousands of projects that need to come on-line for us to maintain our economic productivity?
These are just a few of the questions I have, that I ask whenever elections rolls around, or simply when I’m looking at current events…trying to figure out what’s coming down the line. There’s dozens of others, like higher education, basic K-12 education, environmental quality, immigration, foreign policy, domestic tax policy, corporate subsidies, trade and tarrif agreements, etc, etc.
Other John #58. You mention infrastructure investment. This is an issue which Obama blatantly lied about when running 4 years ago. He kept talking about shovel ready projects and that was a key reason for my enthusiastic support for him, even though I historically lean Republican. In 2008, we clearly new that government spending would be needed to keep the crisis managable. And we do need huge infrastructure investement.
Sounds like a no-brainer and Obama repeatedly talked the talk about shovel ready projects. But he had no intention of keeping this promise. Instead he delivered a 80% pork fat $1 trillion stimulus plan that put money in the pockets of old line democractic constituencies. The rest went via small time checks so that people could go to WalMart and buy a new Chinese made flat panel TV. After a one year sugar high, all we have is even a bigger deficit.
What really pisses me off is that Obama and is proxies are now again talking about how he will invest in infrastructure to get the economy going again if he is elected. Ed Rendell was on Meet The Press the other day feeding us this line again.
By the way – it is worth noting that the Chinese are dealing with the current global slowdown by pouring huge amounts of money that they have been sitting on until now into national infrastructure. Pretty wise. Build up a rainy day fund in good times, and then invest it on infrastructure in bad times.
Let’s simplify this for the right wingers. The middle class has been losing ground in this country for a long time (much farther back than Obama, if your mind can grasp it) for one reason. There is nothing to take from the poor. You get it yet? They might have come for the poor, and they may yet again, but as we say in the south, “you can’t get blood from a turnip”. The increased profits, increased CEO pay, increased market share, increased tax deductions for the wealthy all had to come from somewhere. Let that sink in a bit and get back to us on who they came for.
Markj, I’m admittedly not very learned and knowledgable in global economics, this govt. v that govt, etc., and for this reason, I enjoy learning from your posts.
Here’s my limited-world-view take on your point about middle-class complacency. I’m interested to find out if you (or Dan, or any other blogger) agree at all with me.
There’s a lot of talk about class warfare in America because it does exist. But I see it as more than just the “1%” against the “99%” or the haves against the have-nots. What I see is politicians bought by the wealthiest Americans pitting the middle-class against the poorest class by convincing them that almost everyone who receives SNAP or TANF benefits, or Medicaid, or even disability benefits are lazy, good-for-nothing layabouts who are draining our economy. The wealthiest and their paid-for politicians want the middle-class to be more outraged by a young, single Mother using foodstamps and WIC checks to supplement her minimum-wage job because she also has the audacity to have a cell phone and microwave oven than be outraged by someone who has so much money they hide it in other countries to avoid paying taxes on it. And it’s easy for them to convince the middle-class because the middle-class sees these working poor a lot more than they see or rub elbows with the very wealthy. So the wealthy and their pols ring out the battle-cry, “Do you want YOUR taxes supporting these deadbeats?!” and the middle-class ignorantly votes against their own best interests.
To sum up, the wealthy and their politicians know how to play the class warfare angle to their benefit and the middle-class blindly go along.
(I hope this post made sense. I’m not sure I got my point across very eloquently.)
OJ, despite what Mark says about no shovel ready projects being funding by the stimilus:
You know that $20 million straighening job on the S-curves on U.S. 221 that has been on the books for years (but unfunded) in SW Roanoke County? The one they are literally moving (small) moutains to do? That’s one of the stimulus funded infrastructure projects Mark says aren’t getting funded.
It’s getting funded with stimulus funds (according to VDOT). It’s 3 miles from my house.
“Shovel-ready was not as…uh…shovel-ready as we expected.”–Obama(and don’t forget how he chuckles after he says this).
Wasting billions and billions of taxpayer dollars is funny to Dear Leader.
Does anyone think a senator knows beans about “shovel-ready”, or did maybe some lobbyist put that fire in the hopper?
Cities, towns, counties and states are STILL awarding projects with ARRA money attached. In many cases, matching funds had to be secured and other roadblocks like a hitch in procuring land, ROW, wetlands, etc. happened, but to blame Obama for being wrong about “shovel-ready” is simplistic. Many were, all were not.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/20/mitt-romney/romney-ad-says-stimulus-money-went-buy-electric-ca/
The Stimulus spent money over a wide spectrum of the economy.
http://www.recovery.gov/Transparency/fundingoverview/Pages/fundingbreakdown.aspx#TaxBenefits
297.8 Billion = Tax benefits
242.1 Billion = Contracts, Grants and Loans
234.0 Billion = Entitlements
A nation hurting as bad as we were (and still are) cannot spend 840 Billion on infrastructure alone, shovel ready or not.
But hey, if you vote based on lies, Romney sure made it easy on you last night. Jack squat for the middle class though.
#59 MarkJ, it’s my understanding that the project Dan just named, the U.S. 460 widening west of Salem and the I-81 widening on Christiansburg Mountain are all nearby projects that would not be happening right now without at least some stimulus funds. In the past, I remember driving by signs in other states claiming that road work was the result of stimulus spending. Am I being fooled?
I’m sure that at least some of the money went where it shouldn’t have, and I certainly agree with you about putting money into infrastructure.
13 Suns@1:34
I think your post was plenty eloquent and moreover right on point. The billionaires are spending immense sums of money to promulgate their lies in 30 second sound bites to convince the middle class that they have their interests at heart. They do not. Sherman Adelson is spending 100 million dollars in this political campaign because the upside to him if he wins is several billion in additional profits. The same is true for the Koch Brothers and for the people who control hte U>S> Chamber of Commerce.Middfle class people are not paying attention and are allowing themselves to be used to promote a plutoicracy that they would never support if they truly had the facts.
Yeah lower case matt, right up there with “now watch this putt” while troops were dying for Bush’s vanity project!
Dan, you’re right about the 221 project, and more. I believe the Route 114 widening project now underway in Christiansburg was funded partly through Stimulus money, and another project I was involved heavily in, was funded largely by stimulus money. Before that, it had largely been designed, but had no money for construction. Today? It’s almost complete…
http://www.vamegaprojects.com/news/featured-headlines/vdot-breaks-ground-for-interchange-at-fair-lanes-parkway/
Markj
You ignore the fact that huge amounts of the stimulus money went to struggling state governments (including va.) to help them shore up their budgets and prevent more massive layoffs of teachers, firemen and public health and public safety employees. Va.’s Govv McDonnell who uses his balanced budget to score poklitical points could never have done it without the almost 2 billion in stimulus funds received by the state. You may call that shopring up traditional democratic constituencies because public employees for the most part have supported democrats. But I think they are as importawnt a part of the “infrastructure” as buildings and roads and rail lines because they are that important to a civilized society.
MarkJ,
Virginia got $4.8 billion in stimulus funding. More than anything else, THIS is responsible for Gov. Bob McDonnell’s brag that he didn’t have to raise taxes.
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2009/mar/05/stim05_20090304-221501-ar-50632/?referer=http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEMQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.timesdispatch.com%2Far%2F50632%2F&ei=GehtUPe8BNLW0gGBNg&usg=AFQjCNEVRr7i_vF0isfG02D9jS-PTrBveA&sig2=o11U76fJvdsekmp8Tvom1A&shorturl=http://bit.ly/eQDrr3
You have it exactly right 13 Suns and it is almost that blatant if you read the tell all books and the behind he scenes machinations of campaigns and donor relationships.
“Austerity War Revs Up: Peter Peterson Drops Millions On New Budget Campaign”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/03/austerity-war-peter-peterson_n_1937089.html
“Billionaire private equity mogul Peter Peterson is investing millions of dollars in a new Washington-based campaign for austerity, planning to blanket the airwaves after the election to bolster the case for a “grand bargain” in Congress’ lame-duck session that would slash Medicare and Social Security spending in exchange for new tax revenue.”
Also, they work hard to be sure we ONLY have two choices.
“Behind the Secret Republican and Democrat Effort to Shut Out Third Parties”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/democracy-now/post_3962_b_1939572.html
Matt#63 – I saw that interview with Obama also. Pretty disgusting. Of course Harry & Nancy played a role in this. Obama basically outsourced the first two years of his presidency to Nancy & Harry. In particular the Stimulas Bill and ObamaCare.
America badly needs that once in 50 years great leader. I don’t care if its a Democrat or a Republican. We now know Obama is not one. I would be shocked to discover that Romney is one. His foreign policy statements and advisors disgust me.
I don’t always agree with this guy, but this one sure has a lot of truth in it:
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-09-11/lies-damn-lies-and-disappearing-middle-class
“In conclusion, the middle class is not “disappearing.” It’s becoming weaker, poorer and struggling to maintain its identity. Government action that has helped lower income groups (transfer payments), and rewarded the wealthiest (tax structure, tax breaks), is sucking life energy from the productive middle and upper middle classes.”
Like I said, they came for us.
13 Suns #61. You use rather dramatic and inflamitory language that I don’t personally use. However, I would like to add the following to your point. Have you noticed that whenever anyone points out the fact that the wealth gap between the top 1% and the middle class is growing wider very rapidly over the last 20 years, that the top 1% and their lobby immediately accuse the person of starting class warfare. The class warfare accusation is now as scary a label as being called a racist, anti-feminist or anti-semitic. Once you get hit with one of those labels, there is just no come back. The accused can only retreat with their tail stuck between their legs.
But, you did not mention another big point that I keep raising. If the U.S. would cut out the trillions of spending on the needless military adventures, the middle class boats could all be lifted even if we let the ultra-rich continue to pay less taxes than their secretaries.
“Have you noticed that whenever anyone points out the fact that the wealth gap between the top 1% and the middle class is growing wider very rapidly over the last 20 years, that the top 1% and their lobby immediately accuse the person of starting class warfare. The class warfare accusation is now as scary a label as being called a racist, anti-feminist or anti-semitic. Once you get hit with one of those labels, there is just no come back. The accused can only retreat with their tail stuck between their legs.”
Mark, you’re mostly right about this but there IS a comeback. It’s this:
“You poor victim (NOT!). Don’t you dare cry any more about ‘class-warfare.’ Those are crocodile tears. The reason why the income gap has been growing for most of the last 30 years is that YOU have been waging class warfare, by insisting on tax cuts that will balloon the deficit, and get added to the national debt, and ultimately be paid for by down-the-road tax increases on the middle class, or severe cuts in welfare programs to the most disadvantaged citizens in years out. I reject this hypocritical sloganeering, given all that you have reaped for most of the past three decades. Except: it is not hypocritical for right-wingers to accuse others of playing games that conservatives have been playing for years. It is their stock in trade.”
(BTW, the income gap did not grow during the Clinton years. It closed (slightly) during most of his two terms.)
Here is another good take on the issue 13 Suns:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/middle-class-war/Content?oid=13385574
“Outrage is divided into three sections. The first explains the growing division of classes and why the United States’ gradual slide into economic conservatism has ruined us. If you’ve been paying attention to our financial mess, this is the slightest of refresher courses, but Reich—an economics professor at University of California, Berkeley—knows to throw in the occasional head-turner of a fact to keep your attention. As an argument to the conservative and libertarian canard about how the wealthy should be allowed to choose the charities and causes they want to support rather than handing that money over to the government, Reich explains that the majority of tax-deductible donations from wealthy people and corporations go toward “investments in prestige” like universities and high-end artistic enterprises such as operas and museums. “I’m all in favor of supporting the arts and our universities,” Reich writes, but “only an estimated 10 percent of all charitable deductions are directed at the poor,” who really need those funds.“
It is only called “class warfare” when we fight back.
Ladies and Gents,
If you are looking for solutions to the middle class plight of the last 30 years, your discussion must include the budget spent on wars an war hardware. Total cost of just the Iraq an Afghanistan wars is now at $2.5 trillion. And these expenditures are treated differently from core DOD budgets, as pointed out in the essay at the top of this thread.
Is that money well spent for the middle classs? Is it a necessary cost? Did the middle class get its money’s worth because you are now safer and can sleep better at night?
If not, why don’t you start advocating for cutting it all way back, permanently. You can buy a lot of roads, trains, schools, health care, college scholarships and social security for that cash. And please don’t buy into that silly line that this is all necessary because the world is begging America to protect it from itself.
78. MarkJ – indeed. We have kept the military complex stockholders and CEOs well heeled since Reagan. Romney is promising another 2 trillion.
“If not, why don’t you start advocating for cutting it all way back, permanently.”
How do you know we don’t? Eisenhower didn’t warn us of the military/industrial complex for nothing. Defense contracting is big money, and the contractors, defense department, and military are the same incestuous bunch of people rotating from place to place. I’m one of those who will be perfectly happy when sick patients get the care they need, schools get all the money they need, and the air force has to hold bake sales to fund another friggen bomber.
Thanks for the responses.
one of those who will be perfectly happy when sick patients get the care they need, schools get all the money they need, and the air force has to hold bake sales to fund another friggen bomber.
How will you feel when the hospitals and schools get blown away by a dirty bomb because the military didn’t have enough money to stop it?
Leftwingers think we fund these people for the hell of it.
#78 The military is one area where we very obviously need to cut back.
BTW, I had somebody either here or on one of the other blogs just recently trying to claim that the two wars cost us just $100 billion during all of Bush’s years and $400 billion during Obama’s. Some people will swallow anything.
I’m not a fan of cutting the military. I do think that perhaps we should be a little more prudent in regards to how we commit troops to overseas engagements though. If that results in savings and reduced military spending, that’s a bonus.
Perhaps it’s because I am a Navy brat, and my wife is an Army brat, but we both favor maintaining a strong, technologically superior, well-trained military force. Being that we are targets for international terrorism, I think it would be foolish to cut military capability. But if we can maintain readiness and do it more cost-effectively, I’m all for that.
Other John #84, ironcially, the single biggest root cause of terrorism against the US is our militaristic approach of the last 35 year to Middle East issues, both directly and via our “closest alley in the region” Israel. This is a classic opportunity of creating a virtuous circle, where if we cut back this costly strategy, there will be less need for it, even by the definition of those who support the strategy.
Our militaristic strategy is hated and resisted. For as long as we continue it, it will b resisted using asymetric techniques. Since the beginning of history, great empires called all asymetric resistance “terrorism”.
Richard#79 – I believe that the Reagan military buildup of 30 years ago made a lot of sense for those times.
Since then, times have changed. Its time for the next great leader to emerge and start the pendulum swinging back towards the center.
BTW, MarkJ, since you mentioned being in Prague recently, my cousin once played with the Prague Symphony Orchestra.
As we learned on 9/11, our vast and expensive armory of high-tech weapons poses little advantage against terrorist attacks. We’d be better off dumping that money into better intelligence and cultivation of local sources and information networks. If someone wants to bring a knife on a plane, all the bombers and fighters in the world aren’t going to stop them.
MarkJ, I do realize that, and that’s a big part of why I dislike how we engage in forward deployments around the world, and get involved in various squabbles that we really ought not be entangling ourselves in. To me, it’s like we roam the halls, looking for a fight, and using that as a reason to justify it all. I would prefer to pull the majority of our troops back stateside and use them for actual defense of our country proper, and quit acting as the world’s police force. If other countries was to keep using our troops, they need to foot the bill, all of it, for whatever they wind up utilizing. A ton of money could be saved and recaptured simply by changing how we deploy and engage, without dramatically curtailing our readiness, responsiveness, or capabilities. And who knows, maybe that could even serve to help reduce geopolitical flare-ups related to our presence. It might not happen, but if it did, it wouldn’t be a bad thing.
Terrorism is tricky though. Be too aggressive in fighting it, and it becomes a rallying cry for more to fight back. Take a tempered response to it and it becomes a rallying cry for more because of percieved weakness. It would be different if we were fighting an organized group of people, fighting under the banner of a nation or a group of nations (as in many previous wars)…but this is a religio-political ideology that knows no national borders, that flies under no single banner. Extremism of that sort cannot change with outside intervention (peaceful or otherwise)…it can only come from within those who choose the path of violence and extremism against innocent people and those whom they define as the enemy.
All our ME friends except one tell us the root cause of antiUS terrorism is our one sided treatment of the Palestinian issue. In fact be. Laden said the same in a video released the day after 9/11. Our gov and mass media says its not true. Rather it is a religious thing and hatred of our way of life. Hmmm.
Of the Palestinian issue, I have no doubt that it is a contributory factor. I have had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know several people from there. Most still hold very strong feelings over how they and their families have been treated, hence why they left. The folks I’ve met have really been wonderful people, focused on building their careers, families, and lives here in the states. Many simply wish they had the freedom to do so in their homeland, without very real threat of being killed by missles, bombs, or gunfire. That next to nothing has been done to work out an amicable agreement is a tragedy for those who have endured prolonged suffering there. And as long as that area stays under continual tension and unrest, the whole of the Middle East will remain a hotbed for uprisings, violence, and the breeding ground for more terrorism.