The Post of the Day is from J.M. White
Note from Dan: The erudite diver, fisherman, handyman and soon-to-be-stepdad J.M. White posted this yesterday on this thread, about churches, taxes, and the phony “Pulpit Freedom Day.”
{deep breath}
Aaaaaand, away I go.
I have no problem with any church endorsing and encouraging their members to vote for whomever they may please. In fact, I’d encourage all of them to do so. Their tax-free status can then be revoked and BLAM, instant increase in tax revenue. Win-win, right? They get their freedom of speech that they claim is being squashed and it’s revenue-positive. Remember: only job creators deserve tax breaks; everyone else must pay their fair share. Render unto Caesar … but tax not the churches? I don’t recall that line being in the Bible … or our Constitution.
Now, on to the ridiculous comments:
I like how Doug Thompson seems to think that we can somehow completely remove God from this country, but not Allah. By his logic, that would make Allah more powerful than God by default, would it not? Apparently, Mr. Thompson’s God is weak and somewhat incompetent.
I, too, hope I live long enough to see God removed from everything, Islam take over and our communist government that we covet so very much come to fruition. Since it’s not going to happen, it means I’ll live forever.
Kendra says:“There is a point where God laughs at all of this and then there is a point where He will bring judgment and order.”
You’re right if the prophecies are true. It is prophesied that God will indeed bring judgement and order to His creation – after He lets his biggest mistake, Satan and his army, reign for a thousand years of hell on Earth … but that’s after he unleashes the Beast upon us in the first place … which is after War, Famine, Pestilence and Death are let off their respective chains to kill a third of the population.
Until then, as you say, He’s sitting up there laughing at all of this suffering, hatred, anguish, and other various and sundry evils which He allows to exist. He created us, doomed us to suffer evil and also apparently finds it humorous. Strange … that’s not benevolence; that’s sadism. It’s worth repeating: having the absolute power to completely end suffering and choosing not to wield it while watching said suffering is utterly sadistic.
So, we’ve established that:
- God won’t stop His creations from completely removing Him from this country;
- He won’t stop Islam from taking His place;
- And also seems to find great pleasure in our doubt and pain;
- God also kills and allows killing, but tells us not to kill;
- He covets our worship to the point of our eternal damnation if we don’t, but tells us not to covet;
- He tells us to guide and discipline our children, but lets his own petulant child, Satan, do as he pleases, even to the point of making God have to start this Grand Experiment over, twice.
Exactly why is He worthy of my worship again?
It seems to me that worshiping God as you people define Him is little more than a rabid case of Stockholm Syndrome.
October 9, 2012 - 1:30 PM
My favorite line:
“I like how Doug Thompson seems to think that we can somehow completely remove God from this country, but not Allah. By his logic, that would make Allah more powerful than God by default, would it not? Apparently, Mr. Thompson’s God is weak and somewhat incompetent.”
J.M. White is one smart guy. One of these three MUST be true:
1. “God” (protestant God, “the” God, etc.) really is weaker than another god.
2. God has such an ego, that he must kill his own children for allowing their worship of him to fall into disrepair.
3. God’s ways are greater than our ways and we cannot understand his perfect plan.
Something tells me the low-effort readers here who are literally afraid to embrace any amount of healthy skepticism will default to #3 in part because it is the lowest effort choice, but also because I pre-formatted it for them in fluent RW church lingo.
let the firestorm begin. You are QUITE the agent provocateur, Dan.
What firestorm? JMW’s comment is completely logical and perhaps Mr. Thompson would like to respond in a likewise logical manner. Some people unfortunately have fallen into the habit of thinking they can beat others around the head and neck with their preferred mythology and go unchallenged.
Nothing new here. People have been assailing the God that gave them life. Writers and thinksrs like Voltaire, Sartre: comedians like Kinnison and Carlin. They come and go and God and his word remains. Wise in your own eyes, but His word says “the fool has said in his heart there is no God.”
Read or listen to a Christian apologist like Zacharias or Lewis if you really want answers to the pain question we all wrestle with or why He is worthy of our worship. The bullet points are more like confused questions. Nowhere does the bible say Satan is anyone’s child.
Again, nothing new here.
“Christian apologist”?
Swift –
The bible says lots of stupid self-serving stuff, of course it also says that if you think it is incorrect you are a fool (while also saying not to call anyone a fool).
(Matt 5:22) – “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”
Not really surprising that the christian god operates a double standard.
Listening to apologists – why there is nothing new there? They have been saying the same thing – basically ‘we don’t need no stinking evidence’ for hundreds of years.
If humans are god’s children because he made us then Satan is god’s child as he not only made him, but made him and his kind first (your story, not mine man).
Kristen
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/apologetics.html
Swift –
Zacharias has been as thoroughly manhandled by the crowd who actually understands logic as the rest of the apologists. Lewis’ apologetics weren’t even convincing for me when I was 22ish and didn’t know anything.
JSwift: At no point have I denied the existence of God. What I deny is how humans have defined Him. Here’s your chance to enlighten me:
- If God created everything, then from whence came Satan?
- If God created Satan, why does he not claim him as one of His own?
- If God is perfect in every way, how did he create something imperfect? – Was that imperfect creation intentional, and if so, wouldn’t that mean we were created specifically to suffer? After all, being omniscient and omnipresent means there is nothing that you do not know before it happens.
- Why can’t God vanquish Satan without forcing us to suffer from his evil?
- Furthermore, if God is omnipotent, why can’t he just make Satan into a good guy?
- How did Satan come to have nearly as much power as God?
- Why did God make a bet with Satan over something so serious as the fate of a man’s immortal soul (Job)?
- Why are the New Testament God and the Old Testament God seemingly so different?
- Bonus questions: Do you even know, outside of what your religion has told you, how your religion actually came to be and what religions, ideals and philosophies influenced its creation? Do you honestly think that no other religions existed before the Abrahamic religions?
Again, I never said there is no God. I refuse to just “take it on faith” that a perfect being, who is the embodiment of good, is even capable of creating something so obviously imperfect and corruptible. That is all.
He can fix this easily and guide me back to His flock: Speak to me. Identify Yourself in no uncertain terms to me. You can even answer my questions directly. Show me something. He can do any of these and I’ll be right there on the front pew every single Sunday morning if that’s what he wants me to do.
J.M.White,
What do you say we get a bet down on the fate of Suzie’s immortal soul?
One day you might get to ask those questions yourself. Maybe not if there is no God. I guess we won’t know until then. And if it is true, how will you let us know? And if God is as powerful as to create life and matter from nothing, how will you debate him? I wish I knew these things…
J.M.White,
I am not a theological scholar, but am a devout Christian. In a series of comments I will try to respond to the questions you pose. I doubt you will be converted to my beliefs, but I feel as tho I must try. Here we go…
For what reason or reasons should God have not created the devil even if he was going to fall? Just because God knows what will happen doesn’t mean that the person (or angel) isn’t free to make choices. Satan freely chose to rebel against God. God knew this would happen. Nevertheless, let me offer some possible reasons why God would create Satan even though He knew he would fall and rebel.
1.It was necessary to have the fall so that God could then have a reason to die for our sins thereby demonstrating that God can and does provide the greatest act of love which is to lay down one’s life for his friend (John 15:13).
2.The fall of Satan provides yet another method for God to be glorified in that God can use sin to prove that sin is “bad” and that God’s Word about righteousness is true.
3.If God is to have creatures with free will, then the risk of rebellion is part of that freedom. Satan had that freedom and used it to rebel.
4.If God had not created Satan and instead another angel fell, then we’d be asking why God made that angel knowing he would fall.
5.God has reasons about which we know nothing.
That’s the best I can do with question 1.
preferred mythology and go unchallenged.
As I recall, Kristen asked the group to pray for someone not long ago. Now it’s ‘mythology’.
See the Pew poll..no, not the new one that’s favorable to Mr. Romney, the one that says about 20 percent of Americans aren’t very religious. That number keeps going up for some reason.
J.M. White,
Here’s a shot at several other queries you made about Satan.
God created man to His own image, and claims as His own all who bear this stamp of God’s likeness. The devil strives to destroy this likeness to God in the human soul by inducing man to sin, and thereby substituting his own likeness. God does not prevent this activity any more than He prevented the fall of Adam. God rules every soul by love; the devil seeks to rule by hate, destruction of grace, and frustration of God’s mercy. As God never changes, so also the devil never changes; he always was and always will be the enemy of God, the hater of souls, the father of lies and deceit, and the one through whom death has entered the world.
The liberals aren’t very religious. We already knew that, Mike Scott. That’s yet another reason they are out of touch with the mainstream.
Common Sense -
I fervently hope that if I die and am confronted by the god I deny I have the courage of my convictions to spit in his eye in person as I have done here on earth and demand an explanation for the horrible evil that is the christian system (Substitutional Atonement, Heaven/Hell and original sin).
I am not a theological scholar, but am a devout Christian
You are not a devout Christian, Liberal Ron. It is impossible to follow Christ yet believe the destruction of His most innocent children still in the womb is acceptable.
Dan, here are the odds:
50-1 – She floats in limbo, likely haunting the chocolate fountain at GC.
25-1 – God forgoes judgement altogether and makes fun of her as she stands forlornly at the Pearly Gates for eternity.
15-1 – God says, “Suzie who?.
5-1 – God miraculously pulls the stick from her rear end just in time for her full repentance and acceptance into the Kingdom.
3-1 – She gets to meet her God, only to find out how terribly mistaken she was and is sent into the abyss.
2-1 – She goes straight to hell, is unaware of it, and starts telling those around her how God is such an outstanding conservative for not wasting the denizens’ money on air-conditioning.
And for the truly adventurous:
Eleventy gajillion to 3 – God looks at her and says, “Since you seem to have this well in hand, I’m taking a vacation,” hands her the keys and walks out.
I’ll put $50 on the 2-1 and $10 on the 50-1 You know, just to hedge the bet a little.
BTW, thank you for this, though I’m undeserving of the flattery.
Is it me, or is most ill-informed/aka Suzie’s newest avatar @12 look suspiciously like Elly May Clampett from The Beverly Hillbillies?
Dan #9… Suzie? A soul? That’s funny right there, I don’t care who you are!
RonMay
An all powerful god had options that do not involve eternal torment, original sin and blood sacrifice.
The problem is that the small minds of the men who created him failed to understand that they were creating a horror because they were immoral savages who had the morality of immoral savages.
Jesus did not ‘lay down his life’. When the decision was made to come to earth the story places Jesus in heaven. John places him there from the very beginning, most christians believe he is part of god, eternal. So, he knows that he is eternal and isn’t really going to ‘die’ in any meaningful way when he comes to earth. Then he comes to earth for a couple of decades, has a bad afternoon and is back in heaven shortly. An eternal, supernatural, immortal being comes to earth for a bit and goes back to eternal bliss.
The sacrifice of Jesus is the functional equivalent of me stubbing my toe for you. I would stub my toe for your sins. You’re welcome.
Ron May,
I look forward to your next post.
Thanks.
“That number keeps going up for some reason.”
Probably for the same reason the prison population keeps growing.
Common Sense: Thank you. Your comment exhibits a lot of common sense (no pun intended). I truly hope that I can ask God these questions one day myself. If He chooses to damn me for them, so be it.
Ron May: I welcome your ideas and answers, and please don’t take my apparent blasphemy of your religion as anything more than seeking the truth. I look forward to reading your thoughts on the other questions. I’ll try to address your answers to me in a few minutes. If I don’t go get this casserole started, my fiancee is liable to gnaw on me and I’ll be damned (okay, that was a pun… a bad one) if I’m going to let that happen.
…again.
I’m going to close by commenting on the God of the Old & New Testament. Again understand that I am not a theological scholar.
God, in the Old & New Testaments made several covenants with His people. Among them were…
1.With Noah to save him and his family: (Genesis 6:18, NKJV throughout)
Sorry here’s the rest of the above comment.
2.With Noah and his descendants to never again destroy the world by flood (Genesis 9:9-17)
3. With Abram to give him and his descendants the land we call Israel today and to destroy the inhabitants of that land because of their great sins. (Genesis 15:18-21)
4.God’s follow-up with Abram, changing his name to Abraham, and designating him the father of many nations and millions of descendants, and adding the covenant of circumcision, and promising him Isaac as a son and the inheritor of it (Genesis chapter 17). God made His covenant with Abraham unconditional. (Genesis 22:12-18)
5. God’s conditional one with the children of Israel, requiring their keeping God’s law and circumcision, in return for physical blessings. (Exodus 19 – 24). Further terms (conditions) of this covenant were expounded later. (Leviticus chapters 25 – 27; Deuteronomy chapters 29 – 31)
6. With the children of Israel concerning the Sabbath. (Exodus 31:14-18)
7. God’s concerning the Ten Commandments and Holy Days designated by God. (Exodus 34:10 – 35)
8.God’s concerning the bread in the Tabernacle, and later the Temple, to be eaten only by the priests, descendants of Aaron. (Leviticus 24:8,9)
Several more covenants.
9.God promised a new covenant in the Bible:
“‘Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah – not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.’
“‘But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. . . .’ ” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
10.God, in the Bible, spoke of His unconditional covenant with King David of Israel and of His continuing, unconditional covenant with Jacob’s descendants. (Jeremiah 33:19-36)
11.God spoke of “divorcing” Israel and Judah, thus ending the earlier covenant, and of establishing a new one with them. (Ezekiel 16:59-63)
12. The most important one – the new covenant – established by Jesus upon His death. (Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews chapters 7 – 10). Paul described the only new ritual of it. (1Corinthians 11:23-30)
The basic difference between the Old Testment & New Testament God, in my view, is that God finally decided that He had to send His son, Jesus, to save His creation.
The New Testament is the story of the new covenant God made with His people.
You don’t know me SuzieQ! And you need to just shut up!
“Suzie’s newest avatar @12 look suspiciously like Elly May Clampett “
I think he looks more like Jethrene.
You don’t know me SuzieQ! And you need to just shut up!
Sounds like you are having some doubt about the abortion view, Ron. It really is difficult to reconcile the pro-choice position with a devotion to Jesus. if you are having difficulty with that issue, I applaud you. it means you have a conscience and the potential for growth is there.
RonMay,your posts are always welcome and illuminating. You stake out your position without hostility or defensiveness. Your gentle and heartfelt faith exerts a lot more influence than the more strident and aggressive advocates of Christianity we get treated to here.
Is it me, or is most ill-informed/aka Suzie’s newest avatar @12 look suspiciously like Elly May Clampett from The Beverly Hillbillies?
No, Elly May is a television character. This is Donna Douglas with whom I share a number of similarities. Both of us were raised under relatively poor circulmstances and both of us have done fairly well in the world, despite people trying to pre-judge us by our appearance. Donna rejected numerous roles in which she would have been required to present an un-Christian image. I would have done the same thing.
Art Hill…bwahahahahaha
Exactly why is He worthy of my worship again? Comment by J.M.White
Is your worship worthy of GOD? This is the question that must be asked,
and answered, by each of us individually as none of us are worthy to judge GOD.
16.Common Sense -
I fervently hope that if I die and am confronted by the god I deny I have the courage of my convictions to spit in his eye in person as I have done here on earth and demand an explanation for the horrible evil that is the christian system (Substitutional Atonement, Heaven/Hell and original sin).
Comment by VVArlock — October 9, 2012 @ 8:32 pm
Your hope will be answered. You will surely die.
@30 – “It really is difficult to reconcile the pro-choice position with a devotion to Jesus.”
Now on your point of view…let me fix that for you ….
It really is difficult to reconcile [your] position on the poor and needy with a devotion to Jesus.
Again, I never said there is no God. I refuse to just “take it on faith” that a perfect being, who is the embodiment of good, is even capable of creating something so obviously imperfect and corruptible. That is all.
He can fix this easily and guide me back to His flock: Speak to me. Identify Yourself in no uncertain terms to me. You can even answer my questions directly. Show me something. He can do any of these and I’ll be right there on the front pew every single Sunday morning if that’s what he wants me to do.
Comment by J.M.White — October 9, 2012 @ 7:09 pm
GOD is LOVE. Sometimes it is tough. Sometimes it hurts. Perhaps GOD has
already communicated with you and you do not realize it or are you so naive as to expect GOD to communicate in a manner that you readily comprehend. It is my personal experience that 1) prayers are anwered and
2) GOD Winks.
Jesus said because he was persecuted Christians would be persecuted also. We will survive the persecution. The world today will continue to take everything away from Christians that they can. There will not be a supreme court in Heaven to get them to support everything they can against Christians. Christians will be in Heaven. Unsaved will be in hell.
Would you guys feel as comfortable and superior deriding Muslims about Allah and their Islamic faith?
The sacrifice of Jesus is the functional equivalent of me stubbing my toe for you. I would stub my toe for your sins. You’re welcome.
Comment by VVArlock — October 9, 2012 @ 8:46 pm
Do you really think GOD has toes? A toe is not a son. IMO, Ron will forgive you for your insulting post.
Wow, Leon. Thanks for weighing in with such provocative and enlightening prose. /sarc
I don’t worship, so of course it’s not worthy. I am, however, worthy to judge God because He tells me to seek knowledge and seek Him out. That’s exactly what I’m doing, too. And thus, another paradox is revealed: if I challenge Him and are damned to hell for seeking the truth, then He is not benevolent and as such, not worthy of my worship. So be it.
9.J.M.White,
What do you say we get a bet down on the fate of Suzie’s immortal soul?
Comment by Dan Casey — October 9, 2012 @ 7:31 pm
Seems like you could find something / anything better to do. This is
a disgusting post, even for this Liberal POS blog.
#32 suz,
“Donna rejected numerous roles in which she would have been required to present an un-Christian image. I would have done the same thing.”
Comment by Suzie — October 9, 2012 @ 9:33 pm
I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure most large animal veterinarian commercials are/where fairly secular in nature. This might have something to do with why your film career never really took off. Who knows, that guest star playing second fiddle to Mr. Ed could have been kicking down some serious royalties today…
BTW, Leon, doubt is not the same thing as judgment.
“Screwzie says,
No, Elly May is a television character. This is Donna Douglas with whom I share a number of similarities. Both of us were raised under relatively poor circulmstances and both of us have done fairly well in the world, despite people trying to pre-judge us by our appearance. Donna rejected numerous roles in which she would have been required to present an un-Christian image. I would have done the same thing.”
Don’t leave out the most glaring similarity. Both you and Donna Douglas (née: Dorothy or Doris Smith, depending on which celebrity bio you read) have an unhealthy aversion to the reality that neither of you are spring chickens anymore. Ms. Douglas’ is evidenced by the fact that she still makes public appearances at nearly 80 years old as Elly May. Yours is evidenced by your use of much younger women’s pictures as your avatar.
Well described, Ron May. Thank you.
Sounds like you are having some doubt about the abortion view, Ron. It really is difficult to reconcile the pro-choice position with a devotion to Jesus. if you are having difficulty with that issue, I applaud you. it means you have a conscience and the potential for growth is there.
Comment by Suzie — October 9, 2012 @ 9:30 pm
Yeah, because abortion was such a hot topic during the time of Jesus. The New Testament contains volumes of information where Jesus decried all the aborted fetuses being bandied about by the Egyptian and Roman Empires.
Wait… {places finger to hidden earbud}
Okay, I’m being told by my producers that Jesus did NOT, in fact, have anything at all to say about abortion. In fact, the topic of abortion is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, even though it existed. I apologize for the erroneous reporting.
God sure didn’t have any problem slaughtering the first-born sons of Egypt, though. As a matter of fact, God commanded the Hebrews to murder any male children they came across as they journeyed toward what would become Jerusalem. Oh, and kill their parents, too. Virginal females were safe to take as spoils of war, of course, but any unmarried females who had ever been within intimate proximity of a penis were to be executed, as well.
Also, God would have no problem with me raping you as long as I had the fifty shekels of silver to pay your father and I agreed to marry you. The great thing is that it wouldn’t even matter if I already had a wife!
Eh… I’ll just keep the money.
I have a theory: Leon is a masochist. He called this a “Liberal POS blog,” yet he hangs out here, posting inanities, that do little except make RWers look confused and idiotic.
You’re entertaining us Leon. Don’t you get that?
It really is difficult to reconcile [your] position on the poor and needy with a devotion to Jesus.
I believe Jesus wants my husband and me to continue helping the very poor in Zimbabwe. You don’t?
Would you guys feel as comfortable and superior deriding Muslims about Allah and their Islamic faith?
Comment by Chuck — October 9, 2012 @ 9:57 pm
I sure would, Chuck, although to be fair, I don’t feel superior to anything or anyone.
Regardless, it’s the same God and the same faith; only the prophet is different.
Ain’t it funny how a prophets’ interpretation of the Word of God can take so many different directions? It’s almost like the interpretations are remarkably and uniquely… human. Hmmm.
Your gentle and heartfelt faith exerts a lot more influence than the more strident and aggressive advocates of Christianity we get treated to here.
Hon, you just said religion was “mythology”. What bearing does your view on Christianity have on anything?
Leon: if you wouldn’t mind terribly could I have your address? I have an extra sense of humor laying around that I’m not using and I think it would benefit you greatly.
39.”Would you guys feel as comfortable and superior deriding Muslims about Allah and their Islamic faith?”
When they say stupid things? Yep.
Would you guys feel as comfortable and superior deriding Muslims about Allah and their Islamic faith?
–Comment by Chuck — October 9, 2012 @ 9:57 pm
Chuck, I feel that Muslim children have the same rights to pray in public schools as Christians, Jews, Hindsu, B’hais, Unitarians, Shintos, Sufis, Sikhs, Buddhists, Scientologists and other faiths.
And the same goes for adherents all those religions at the opening of Board of Supervisors’ meetings.
(Silently, of course)
Jesus said because he was persecuted Christians would be persecuted also. We will survive the persecution. The world today will continue to take everything away from Christians that they can. There will not be a supreme court in Heaven to get them to support everything they can against Christians. Christians will be in Heaven. Unsaved will be in hell.
Comment by don — October 9, 2012 @ 9:55 pm
When you bring a dualistic, Far Eastern philosophy to a polytheistic empire, persecution is kind of par for the course.
What did that godless heathen just say?
Oh, that? I merely said that the monotheistic religion of the Old Testament was likely an iteration of Zoroastrianism (coincidentally developed along a major trade route to the Far East, where the dualist base of monotheism was first developing) and that Jesus was remarkably Buddhist in his philosophy and teachings.
Oh, and don? Nobody gets out of life alive. I do hope that you’re right, though, and get to have your seat at the feet of God. Put in a good word for me, would you? I obviously need all the help I can get.
Suzie, enlarge the picture you stole and you will see that she is in costume as Elly May, so don’t pretend your affection for the woman while portraying the character you frequently sound like.
http://florida.thejoyfm.com/asheard/2008-09-26
FYI Suzie, “the liberals” would not have to be very devout, religious, or Christian to not lose ground to you and the judgmental right wingers here.
It really is not difficult to reconcile the pro-choice position with a devotion to Jesus, not at all. Jesus forgave and said, “go and sin no more”. He condemned no one, not even those who persecuted, taunted and crucified him. He had compassion for the person in front of him, not the chattel they might bring into the world. How do you even know what “…Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God” means? You don’t.
The Bible is not clear on abortion, even though it happened then too. There is no sin God will not forgive so your angry lashing out may well be as sinful as a desperate woman seeking an abortion, in the eyes of a just God who repeats often “Love thy neighbor”! At any rate, you should seriously consider that you might not have the standing to cast those stones.
How did I miss this jewel?
“…are you so naive as to expect GOD to communicate in a manner that you readily comprehend[?]”
Well yeah, actually. It sure would help to clear up any confusion. I know this is a far-out, radically progressive idea, but bear with me: I’d like to think that a sheep lost from the flock would get more than a vague motion of the hand and a grunt to get me back into the fold. He does love me, right? That’s a strange way of showing it.
Again, someone illustrates how God sets us up to fail, sets the rules in opposition and then damns us for eternity when that failure occurs.
Sadism, sir. The Khmer Rouge was kinder.
One more thing and I’m off to bed:
Ron May: Thank you for your respect, kindness and guidance. Since you’ve taken the time to reference things in the Bible for me, I’d like to be able to address them in an educated and respectful manner. Though I’m familiar with many of the passages you quote, I need to brush up on their context.
I’m going to read through my Bible as I go to bed and take some notes. It may shock some of the readers of my missives here but yes, I do have a Bible. It sits on my desk, was not taken from a hotel and doesn’t even get dusty. I’m currently analyzing the fascinating numerology of Revelations, but that’s a subject for another day.
Regardless, I’ll be back tomorrow and only hope that I can maintain the same decorum, tact and goodwill as you’ve given to me. From the bottom of my heart, I thank you, sir. I do hope we can continue this.
You’re entertaining us Leon. Don’t you get that?
Comment by Dan Casey — October 9, 2012 @ 11:33 pm
Stamping out Lypocrisy wherever I find it…and it is on this blog big time. Better go Burka shopping Dan.
58.How did I miss this jewel?
“…are you so naive as to expect GOD to communicate in a manner that you readily comprehend[?]”
Well yeah, actually. It sure would help to clear up any confusion. I know this is a far-out, radically progressive idea, but bear with me: I’d like to think that a sheep lost from the flock would get more than a vague motion of the hand and a grunt to get me back into the fold. He does love me, right? That’s a strange way of showing it.
Comment by J.M.White — October 10, 2012 @ 12:32 am
You look but do not see; you hear but do not listen. I hope that you do come to understand GOD. I thank you for your later comments to Ron May whom I do not know but see sincerity in his posts. I also see the ridicule of such by others who do not, can not or will not try to understand.
J.M. White:
“It may shock some of the readers of my missives here but yes, I do have a Bible.”
Nope. I went to a private Christian K-12 school. The most skeptical people with the best arguments are the ones who have actually read and studied the Bible.
Chuck, please find me a Muslim that shows up on this blog and runs their big judgmental gums at everyone else. A Muslim who sits on their butts here all day explaining exactly who’s going to hell and who’s not.
Let me know when you come up with one. In the meantime, the loudest and most obnoxious “Christianx” here get reamer because theyre asking for it.
One RWer: “obummer comy erg deth pannelz tak are contry back !!!!!”
Other RWer: “Oh terrible well done, old boy. Spot on indeed!”
““Christianx” here get reamer because theyre asking for it.”
WTH?!?? A few Uh’s and Um’s and that mumbling, bumbling statement could have been a quip from obama’s ‘debate’.
For a long while Josh (no longer here) and Sandi were my favorite posters here. Then it was Art Hill and Blue John for a while. Now, I sincerely have to say that JM White has moved into the lead.
Ron,
“The basic difference between the Old Testment & New Testament God, in my view, is that God finally decided that He had to send His son, Jesus, to save His creation. ”
In all due respect to a person who is always civil in such conversation, I have to ask why this is necessary? It’s God. If you believe in the personification of of this diety as all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then why didn’t said entity just set up everything correctly the first place?
God’s solution makes no sense at all: Bring a son into the world, who is then tortured and killed to correct the flawed system that God set up in the first place?
This is scapegoating, pure and simple. Throwing the sins upon another goes back much further than Jesus and makes no more sense than curing the ills of a community by sacrificing a goat at the alter.
Nobody bears the responsibility of my actions except for me and whatever misdeeds I have done, the responsibility for them cannot be thrown up a dead person from 2000 years ago.
It’s impossible to have all knowing, all loving God who constantly creates new convenants cause old ones aren’t working so good.
What it really looks like is humanity struggling with morality and ethics of a long period of time and eventually progressing toward the respect of individual freedoms.
I can longer accept such convoluted rationalizations for the nature of god.
And for all you fundies out there, I do have a Bibles, and have read them. It’s part of how I have come to my current position on the matter.
Leon spreading it on thick:
“You look but do not see; you hear but do not listen. I hope that you do come to understand GOD.”
After you, sir. It must be awful to live in such a two-dimentional world.
I saw that too late, Marked. Of everything I type on, the ipad’s the worst. I do better with my phone.
Well done, J M White and Dan. Very entertaining. And provocative, of course.
Mike Scott,
Do you have children? Think about it.
@71
Of course I have children. I can’t imagine a mess that I could create in which the sacrifice of one would fix it.
From the pen of Bob Dylan (Highway 61 Revisited):
Oh God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son”
Abe says, “Man, you must be puttin’ me on”
God say, “No.” Abe say, “What?”
God say, “You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin’ you better run”
Well Abe says, “Where do you want this killin’ done?”
God says, “Out on Highway 61”
I can’t imagine that either Mike Scott. However, as parents, we are continually working with our children to get them to go in a particular direction or live life according to some set of parameters. We love our children despite some of the things they do or say or the behaviors they exhibit. As parents we love them almost more than we love ourselves. We make sacrifices for them all the time.
The Old & New Testaments are stories about the relationship, often difficult, between God and His children (creation). We wander away from the direction He wants us to go. He forgives us, rightly or wrongly, when we acknowledge our mistakes and ask for forgiveness. Think of the story of the Prodigal Son. For many people the story of God and His relationship with His children makes no sense. It is beyond me to understand why God would sacrifice His son for me. But my faith says He did.
As humans we are imperfect. We were given “free will.” Because of that we make mistakes and do things God would prefer we didn’t do. I’ve certainly made my share of mistakes over the course of my earthly journey. Nonetheless, because of my faith I know that I can confess my mistakes(sins) and my God will forgive me and still count me as one of His children. It’s amazing!
J.M.,
I am neither here nor there on Christianity. I know that people like my mother don’t allow themselves to be caught up in the politics of the day. She is very old school but doesn’t wear it on her sleeve. I think there are more like her out there who just want to read their bible and worship in their own way without all the judgement and name calling.
As with anything today, we mainly pay attention to what the extremists say and do.
That aside here are a couple of links to podcasts by Robert M. Price. He is an atheist, but knows the bible inside and out and goes over it in a matter of fact way. Thought you might be interested.
The Bible Geek
The Human Bible
I would like to address the image of Jesus as a shepherd who looks after his “flock”. As a Catholic school child, the indoctrination of this image started immediately in first grade. We were told the story of Jesus, who sacrificed himself for “us” and would always protect his “lambs” from evil…there were pictures hung on the walls in each of the lower grades with a blond haired, blue eyed Jesus sitting on a rock, shepherd’s hook in one hand, his flock in the background and little children sitting around him. This was my childhood image of the man called Jesus – the protector of children.
Fast forward to the adult Catholic working with violent families and abused children. Protect his “lambs”? No.
Children killed, physically and mentally abused, sometimes beyond repair. The reality of Jesus looking after his flock was destroyed after the first one hundred burned, bruised and dead babies and children. I heard a lot about “free will”. What does free will have to do with a 9 month old stuffed into a suitcase in a closet, so starved, that this became their final view of the world – a locked suitcase?
The reality of life in no way conforms with this image of a good and all knowing god. What type of god should be worshiped while not “protecting” the young innocents? What kind of god “calls this child home” only after being brutalized?
Some will get comfort from their religion, and I am happy for them. But many others will see the deception in a god who demands blind faith with a weekly monetary contribution to get into heaven, while allowing millions of these “lambs” to die of violence, disease, and starvation throughout the world.
Shepherd? No, more like the guy who runs the slaughterhouse.
“We wander away from the direction He wants us to go. He forgives us, rightly or wrongly, when we acknowledge our mistakes and ask for forgiveness. Think of the story of the Prodigal Son.”
Ron, what about the part in the OT when God burns alive 250,000 or so men, women, and children who were wanting meat to eat during the exodus?
Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
@74
I don’t understand seeking forgiveness from God. If I need to clear my conscience, I find no solace from pretending a supernatural being has forgiven me. I do find a clear conscience from doing my best in makeing things right between me and the person or persons I have wronged. What good is assurances in my mind that are easy to get as air if my neighbors still see me as thief, crook or rapist.
This strikes as a problem with religion and I’ll cite pedophile priests in making my point. No doubt these priest knew they had committed a terribly immoral act. Not doubt each and everyone prayed for foregiveness. At least some slept well at night knowing God forgave them for their actions. No doubt few of them actually went to the children, or to the families of children who they harmed. Forgiveness can only be granted from the those harmed, and it seems in my mind that Christianity would rather undertake the easy work of finding supernatural intermediaries than difficult and hard work of personally approaching those who suffered because of ethically or morally reprehensible behavior.
sigh…..
I see we got Will started up again.
Will, I think, is Jerry Falwell’s ghost. Who said there’s no reincarnation?
Good post will, you struck a nerve with that timely post. That all you have guys? Insults?
Dan:
“Will, I think, is Jerry Falwell’s ghost. Who said there’s no reincarnation?”
Jackie Mason gave me a reason to hope reincarnation is real. I want to come back a women’s bicycle seat.
And guys, will was just the messenger in his post. Those be the words of god. How about you both explain how that’s not happening in the world around us? And explain to us how completely asinine those “words” are?
hey Chuck, you’ll NEVER see anything negative about the muslim faith on ol’ dano’s blog….no ridicule of muslims. no questioning of allah.
the libs loathe themselves, the way they were raised, the ideals they have determined to be false, etc. they weren’t raised with islamism, so allah, muslims, and islamist terrorists are off their list of things to cr-p on.
hey Chuck, there’s all kinds of negative stuff about the muslim faith this humble blog, including ridicule of muslims, questioning of allah, etc.
You’ll find it in the comments by Frank (among others).
68.Leon spreading it on thick:
“You look but do not see; you hear but do not listen. I hope that you do come to understand GOD.”
After you, sir. It must be awful to live in such a two-dimentional world.
Comment by John Wilburn — October 10, 2012 @ 9:30 am
Your assumption is incorrect. How many dimentions to you live in?
Is mattyr suggesting in post #84 that Will R channels god? Isn’t that blasphemy?
Frank @ 85 “the libs loathe themselves, the way they were raised, the ideals they have determined to be false, etc. ”
Project much?
Muslim bashing, even though there are no Muslim Qur’an thumpers on this blog, is a typical right wing effort. They are not even smart enough to know that denigrating other people’s faith belies the argument theirs does not deserve it.
Suzie, I applaud your concern for the Zimbabwean poor and believe you should go live there and use you education as well as your money to enrich those poor people and their children. You can obviously afford it, though Jesus did not mention that in his admonitions. Apparently they are “poor enough” for you. No cushy Section 8 housing or food stamp steak for them! Go Saint Suzie!
Re: Comment by Mike Scott — October 10, 2012 @ 9:13 am
“The basic difference between the Old Testment & New Testament God, in my view, is that God finally decided that He had to send His son, Jesus, to save His creation. ”
——————-
And introduce the concept of Hell.
No he didn’t …
“After you, sir. It must be awful to live in such a two-dimentional world.
Comment by John Wilburn — October 10, 2012 @ 9:30 am
Your assumption is incorrect. How many dimentions to you live in?
Comment by Leon — October 10, 2012 @ 5:54 pm ”
Really?
VVarlock,
In fairness to Leon, I believe that he certainly believes he lives in a two-dimensional world. In Leon’s world the dimensions are “truth” and “fiction. The problem he has is that he has them mixed up. That’s why he posts so much fiction as comments on this blog.
leon:
“How many dimentions to you live in?”
Was this really just asked?
BAHAHAHA!!!
I bet that whole two-axis political scale would blow Leon away! Duck and cover in the Right, Leon! That’s where all the “truth” is. LOL.
I think you’re smarter than that shill. You know exactly what it is.
Actuallu, Dave Hicks, Jesus never used the word ‘Hell’ in any part of the Bible.. in its original language.
I believe the word they used meant ‘an area outside the city/town where trash, dead animals, etc are all put.’ When they would say in the Bible that someone would surely be banished to ‘Hell’ (the current translation), they actually wrote that they would be banished to that location outside the city.
mattyr @ 85. Evidently not, What is it if not blasphemy? I think a guy named David Koresh claimed god spoke through him, no?
and the word “purgatory” was never mentioned in the bible either.