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American misconceptions about U.S. exceptionalism

Wikimeda Commons | Text by Dan

By Mark Jurkevich

Many Americans have a flawed view of the USA’s standing among the community of nations. The self-perception is that we are number one by practically every meaningful measurement.

This view is not surprising given that every politician and all mainstream media saturate us daily with slogans such as:

American exceptionalism (Does that mean we are the chosen people?);
America is the leader of the free world (What countries belong to this club? Who is the leader of the unfree world?);
America has the best health care system in the world;
Most of the world supports the huge U.S. military because they know it is there to protect them (From who?);

My inspiration for writing this post came from a comment about the huge U.S. military, left last week on this blog. The following comment was in response to my post Global Prosperity Index Boots America From Top 10:

“. . .Also, something that continuously chaps my a$$ is that so many countries can use their resources to prosper because they can invest a relatively small amount for their own ‘defense’ as they know/believe that the USA will protect them.”

I replied this could be the greatest misconception of how Americans view themselves compared to how the rest of the world views Americans.

Martin Varsavsky | Wikimedia Commons

My other inspiration is Martin Varsavsky’s recent essay So What’s Wrong With The States? Varsavsky is a telecom visionary who made a fortune building and selling a number of disruptive companies. He’s a true global citizen, who loves America, a country that has been good to him and his family.

He’s a Jew from Argentina, educated in the United States, and has lived a great deal of his life in Europe. His family likely has Polish roots (“varsava” is the phonetic spelling of the Polish word for Warsaw). Currently, Varsavsky teaches at Colombia University in New York, among many of his activities.

In his essay he writes “But when I speak to some American friends they seem to be unaware of the shortcomings of the USA compared to others, and this is what I would like to focus on. Here are some quick examples:”

He goes on to list and expand upon a number of claims about USA global ranking, including:

1. Health
Ranks 38th in life expectancy;
This generation is the first one whose average lifespan will be shorter than previous generations;
The highest percentage of obese, 30%;
Ranks 72nd in overall health
50 million uninsured (in an earlier column I noted that USA health care system ranks 37th in quality and 1st in cost)

2. Society
Ranks 1st in death penalty /execution rates in developed world;
Ranks 1st in incarceration rate in the developed world;
Ranks 1st in divorce rate in the world;
Rapidly rising inequality –  since 1979 the top 1% of population enjoyed a 275% wealth gain, compared to 40% for remaining 99% of population.

3. Other
The USA spends almost half of what the whole world spends on military;
Ranks 1st in per capita pollution in the world. (I would argue with Varsavsky that in terms of pollution per dollar of GDP, the USA is relatively green);
Consistently ranks around 20th in PISA (Programe for International Student Assessment) evaluation of high school students worldwide.

The Varsavky essay is an eye opener for most Americans, and it’s a good read. It’s important for Americans to develop a deeper awareness of how they rank in the community of nations; we have many strengths, and many weaknesses.

Varsavsky finishes with an inspirational quote of Bill Clinton “There is nothing that is wrong with America that cannot be fixed by what’s right in America.”

I would add the following: Everyone should be open to learning from others, for which the key is awareness of one’s universe.

Join the conversation [ADD A COMMENT]

44 COMMENTS

  1. Nosaj | November 12, 2012 at 7:07 am

    This is good stuff, Mark, and I think it entirely appropriate that we discuss these issues on The day that we celebrate our Veterans. Our Veterans have fought and died for the collective freedoms of a free society, yet several facts from observations made by Mr. Varsavsky hint that our collective good is being eroded. Our justice system favors those with resources. Our health system does not provide great bang for the buck. Wealth inequality has skyrocketed in the past 30 years. I think this economic disparity must be ameliorated. Call it wealth redistribution or Socialism or whatever, we become a stronger society when the playing field isn’t such a slippery slope.

  2. Angela Allen | November 12, 2012 at 7:40 am

    Thoughtful points. I’m amazed at people who think our health care system is far better than Europe’s. I have quite a few friends who live in or have traveled to Europe and found that their health care is not only good but considerably less costly.

  3. Liz | November 12, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Maybe I’m more informed than most but these facts don’t surprise me. What surprises me is that people think that the USA has no flaws. Health care in the USA is a joke unless you are of the 1%, which I’m not.

  4. sammasati | November 12, 2012 at 9:25 am

    Why would Americans believe that their army will protect some other country if this will not be a good business and big bucks for America? Give me one example of when the US Army went to fight “free of charge”, just because it is such a noble country :)

  5. Sandi Saunders | November 12, 2012 at 9:50 am

    Few parents know their child is ugly (funniest Seinfeld episode ever!). Few sports fans view their teams critically. Few Americans see the faults in the foundation. It is innate to some degree.

    What this nation proves writ large and this blog proves in a microcosm is that we are not good at self-evaluation on any level. We are pedigreed judges of others however. To admit your own or America’s faults is seen as unpatriotic or even treasonous by far too many invested in the golden myth. It has held us back in so many areas that it does indeed need to be examined, discussed and ripped off the veneer used to cover over just what American exceptionalism really is.

    It is indeed our freedom, our rights, our “out of many, one” and our progressive, inclusive, opportunity laden country that still makes us exceptionable. We have such a well run system and such uplifting ways to our culture and way of life that we still inspire other nations. The right wing cannot embrace that mantra for obvious reasons so they chose to make our exceptionalism about something else, something more fearful, sinister and fantastical IMO.

    For well over a century America was about striving to meet and exceed our own expectations. Now, many are about maintaining prejudice, malfunction and even malevolent systems as long as we do not appear liberal or progressive to the world. Game lost, but they will never admit the defeat.

  6. scott whitaker | November 12, 2012 at 10:11 am

    Awesome post Sandi!

  7. Shrillary | November 12, 2012 at 10:11 am

    Thank you Mark for touching on a subject that most wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole. It is thoughtfully laid out and, I believe, a fair assessment. I especially like your quote, “Everyone should be open to learning from others, for which the key is awareness of one’s universe.”

    It has been the history of humankind across the millenniums to learn from each other and spread innovative ideas from one community to another, from one culture to another – and eventually one country to another. The American “exceptionalism” myth portrays us as arrogant and narrow-minded – often leading to unilateral actions which separate us from allies, and fuel the anti-Americanism often found outside our own ‘bubble”. I think learning from others in our own lives, as well as in the greater sphere, is a positive, not a negative trait.

    To look at the ranking of the United States on many levels, the CIA-World Facebook site is an eye opener:

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2223rank.html

  8. Nosaj | November 12, 2012 at 10:25 am

    Good stuff, Sandi. You are so right about how well our systems work. Flawed as they can be in isolated instances, as a whole, our country is run, well, exceptionally. Evidence of that abounds, but that many folks from other countries come here to be educated or move their families here for a better quality of lie is quite telling.

  9. Kristen | November 12, 2012 at 10:32 am

    I have no problem with Americans who think their country is the best, I’m just amused by Americans who are surprised to find out that other people in other countries feel the same way about their own homelands. As though the “We’re #1!!” syndrome should only apply to Americans.

    America is a fine country on a planet full of similarly fine countries, all of whom could learn something from eachother.

  10. Ron May | November 12, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Today, the distribution of total defense spending between the U.S and European allies stands at 3-1. I, for one, would be more than happy to have the U.S. defense operations removed entirely from Europe. I’m sure the Europeans would gladly pick the defense costs now being born by American taxpayers. Should that actually happen savings to our federal budget would total $2.5 trillion over the next 10 years. We could allocate some of that to better health programs and education programs for our own citizens.

  11. Mark Jurkevich | November 12, 2012 at 11:46 am

    Ron,you are using the word “defense” and “defense costs” very loosely. Calling it military and military costs is more accurate. One must really go through some mental gymnastics to argue that all of our military spending is for defense. Exhibit A for my point is the Iraq War.

    What is it that Europe has to defend itself from? When you answer that, then, I believe you can make a quick business plan to calulate the cost of designing a commensurate defense. Anyone who goes through this excercise will realize the cost will be miniscule compared to US military spending.

    Our military is an incredible war machine that we can not afford and that has been doing more harm than good since the cold war ended over 20 years ago. The terms “US defense spending” and “US defense budget” are euphemisms.

    It is no accident that Martin Varsavsky used the term “military spending” rather than the term “defense spending”.

  12. Dave Hicks | November 12, 2012 at 11:48 am

    Well done Sandi et al.

    I cannot see how anyone is surprised.

    FWIIW, this issue has been covered in the press for years.

    For more check out:

    http://tinyurl.com/3opqvrf — (From Foreign Policy, my favorite source of news and input of international politics and global affairs. Big surprise, right, as I often link to it or quote it here.

    IMHO, the following nails it, “The only thing wrong with this self-congratulatory portrait of America’s global role is that it is mostly a myth. Although the United States possesses certain unique qualities — from high levels of religiosity to a political culture that privileges individual freedom — the conduct of U.S. foreign policy has been determined primarily by its relative power and by the inherently competitive nature of international politics. By focusing on their supposedly exceptional qualities, Americans blind themselves to the ways that they are a lot like everyone else.

    This unchallenged faith in American exceptionalism makes it harder for Americans to understand why others are less enthusiastic about U.S. dominance, often alarmed by U.S. policies, and frequently irritated by what they see as U.S. hypocrisy, whether the subject is possession of nuclear weapons, conformity with international law, or America’s tendency to condemn the conduct of others while ignoring its own failings. Ironically, U.S. foreign policy would probably be more effective if Americans were less convinced of their own unique virtues and less eager to proclaim them.”)

    —–

    http://tinyurl.com/abtsket

    —–

    http://tinyurl.com/azvdfqs

    http://tinyurl.com/abakwqw — (This one has a couple of lines I love, “The will not to believe is the shifting sand beneath the unstable entire architecture of American Exceptionalism. Because our attachment to the idea is theological, and not empirical, we can neither look at our history nor our politics honestly. Eventually, the lies pile up, one atop the other, and you get a Willard Romney…. [emphasis added])

    —–

    http://tinyurl.com/bjkyu2q

    —–

    http://tinyurl.com/3phfuok — (A classic from 2011 and again, “The phrase has an odd history. As Princeton history professor Sean Wilentz reminds me, American exceptionalism once applied to the hostility that the American worker — virtually alone in the industrialized world — had toward socialism. Now, though, it is infused with religious meaning, which makes it impervious to analysis. Once you say God likes something, who can quibble?)

    —–

    http://tinyurl.com/y11s

    —–

    Thanks MarkJ, for spurning discussion on this important subject.

  13. gdad | November 12, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    #11 Unfortunately, Mark, we have too many who DO go through the mental gymnastics and who argue either that a good offense is the best defense, or that being heavily armed and bristling for action makes for a more peaceful world (sound familiar?). We cannot afford to continue down this path.

  14. Mike Scott | November 12, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    Don’t know if Chris Rodda’s take on american exceptionalism is covered with all of his timely links, but her account says the term was ever supposed to be a compliment in the first place.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/fyi-republicans-tocquevil_b_1847387.html

    Cue the “we hate america” dialog for speaking openly about this topic. That is a predictable outcome of challenging the position of those who have come to believe that our country is the product of devine creation instead of reason.

  15. Ron May | November 12, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Mark,

    My comment was not meant as a snarky response to the article. I really do want to see the U.S. pull its military presence out of Europe. I believe that because many of the “enemies” both Europe & the U.S. perceived being present aren’t there anymore. I’m willing to let Europe define its own “enemies list” and choose how it wants to defend itself from those enemies.

    I am also willing to pull our military operations out the middle east and let the middle east solve its own problems. Our nation does not clearly understand middle eastern societies nor do the middle eastern societies understand the U.S. by and large. Do we have interests there? I would say yes. But I don’t believe we need to consult with Europe, Asia or the Middle East in how we choose to manage our interests there.

    I realize you and others might consider my views, as expressed here, as parochial. That’s your choice.

  16. Nosaj | November 12, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Ron, I definitely agree that we should get out of the Middle East for the reason you state. Not sure about Europe, but it certainly seems worth exploration. We do not need to be the world protector.

  17. Mark Jurkevich | November 12, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Ron, I always appreciate your views, and your clarification. Keep them coming!

    So since you did not intend to be snarky, please allow me (or forgive me) to take a shot at it. Here goes. Your comment reflects this rather new American view of “you are either with us or against us”. On this subject, Europeans generally take a more mature view that everyone can be a competitor in some areas and an ally in other areas. For them, your advise of defining an enemies list and then building a military to destroy those on the list is both “so yesterday” as well as so American.

    A great example is the relationship between Russia and Germany. Former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroder is the Chairman of the North Stream Gas route controlled by Gazprom. That project is reviled by US politicians of both parties (for really weak reasons I may add). Ron Sommer, former CEO of Deutsche Telekom (i.e. German Telecom), is now the Chairman of The Board of MTS, perhaps the most powerful telecom company in Russia & CIS.

    Unlike the EU, and Germany in particular, we in America have folks like Mitt Romney declaring recently that Russia is America’s number one geopolitical foe.

  18. Sandi Saunders | November 12, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    That is just it Nosaj, ARE we the world’s “protector” or the world’s bully? What we perceive our role as being and what the rest of the world sees it as is quite eye opening. Our interests cannot always be at the end of a gun or a blockade. We cannot boss the world and we need to seriously stop trying. So what if there is mutually agreed destruction for the Theocracy that gains a nuclear weapon and decides to go out in a blaze of glory? Will troops all over the world stop that? It appears the answer is no.

    We need to redefine ourselves (in light of those states petitioning to secede) and we need to redefine our role in the world as a leader by example not always by might. That being said, I do not look for either to happen in my lifetime.

  19. Mark Jurkevich | November 12, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Ron wrote: I am also willing to pull our military operations out the middle east and let the middle east solve its own problems. Our nation does not clearly understand middle eastern societies nor do the middle eastern societies understand the U.S. by and large.

    Ron – your view here is butting up against the interests of “our closest ally” and its U.S. lobby, which happens to be a huge contributor to both political parties. In fact that lobby understands the U.S. very well. They play us like a fiddle. Oy vey!

  20. Charlie Self | November 12, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    We really need to change the Department of Defense’s name to its original: Department of War. It is much more accurately descriptive. Last night, on 60 Minutes, the piece on job openings mentioned the number of small contractors, small businesses, who depend on DOD contracts. IIRC, it was 120,000. Corrections welcome, but just the F35 has over 1000 subcontractors.

    Military-Industrial complex anyone? I was young and in the Marines, when Ike made that speech. It was over 50 years ago; his prediction has come to pass.

  21. John Wilburn | November 12, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    So, Sandi, Kristen, Dan, et al, should the US “unincorporate” so to speak and go to a shared global currency (and governemnt perhaps) and take the UN thing as far as possible?

    Forced equlity by poverty for all!

  22. Suzie | November 12, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    American have rightly believed we were the beacon of freedom and capitalism in the world. It is understandable that many now think we are rapidly falling from that lofty perch.

  23. gdad | November 12, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    #22 The Department of War has become a welfare department for businesses ripping off American taxpayers. Talking about takers.

  24. Old blue | November 12, 2012 at 9:30 pm

    The so called military industrial complex goes way back. Once they were called merchants of death. Read general smedley butler’s “war is a racket” for a soldier’s take on this subject.

  25. Nosaj | November 12, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    Mark and Ron, what would European countries say about the US reducing or eliminating a military presence there?

  26. Nosaj | November 12, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    Sandi, I agree that we need to examine our role in the world. We so often, in a know-it-all tone, profess that our interventions in the Middle East and elsewhere are for the purpose of bringing Democracy to an oppressed people. Do we seriously ask if these peoples want Democracy. Democracy as we see it? What happens when elections are held, and the “bad guys” are elected?

  27. John Wilburn | November 12, 2012 at 11:34 pm

    Nosaj:

    “Do we seriously ask if these peoples want Democracy.”

    Why should we, we can’t keep the government from shoving all kinds of stuff down our own throats we don’t want, much less anyone else’s.

    The world is full of people who live to tell others how to live and would be a better place if we all kept our noses on our side of the fence and not in others’ bedrooms, holsters, or medicine cabinets.

  28. MarkJ | November 13, 2012 at 3:00 am

    Suzie #22 – Well put. I agree.

    I suspect that if we started discussing timelines about when “now” began” we would have some disagreement.

  29. Ron May | November 13, 2012 at 7:47 am

    Nosaj,
    From what I have read I believe the reaction would be different in western Europe than in eastern Europe (countries formerly under control of the Soviet Union.) There are approximately 40-45,000 U.S. Army personnel stationed in Germany & Italy right now. Multiply that number by the dependents of those personnel.(Approximately 100,000 dependents) Assignments to Europe typically are for 3 years at a time. Many army personnel ask to be reassigned to Europe posts regularly. Bases there are fully stocked with the amenities of American life. My cousin, now retired, spent 21 of his 30 years in the Army stationed in Germany. His children are more European than they are American.(That’s not meant to be derogatory) Plans are to withdraw approximately 10,000 military personnel from Europe in 2012. Approximately 25,000 dependents will leave with those soldiers.

    I believe that the technological capabilities our military has today enables the U.S. to “defend” its interests in most parts of the world today. I believe that we could significantly reduce our “boots on the ground” without much dimunition of our capability. I’m sure there are others who will disagree with that.

    We’ve been deeply involved in Europe & other parts of the world to fight the spread of Communism since the end of WWII. That’s why President Eisenhower warned us against the development of the industrial/military complex when he left office in 1961. Unfortunately, in my view, we didn’t take his advice. That’s why, again in my view, our country is viewed in many parts of the world as a bully.

    I believe strongly that Israel has a right to exist. However, as Mark implied in a comment yesterday, the pro-Israel lobby in the U.S. has jerked our chain just about any time it wanted and we usually respond the way Israel wants us to. I believe that Israel is capable of defending itself. I know some will accuse me of being an anti-semite. I’m not.

    Bottom line for me is that I believe funds spent in assisting countries build water/sewer systems, provide infrastructure improvements, and generally are directed toward improving the quality of the lives of countries around the world is better spent than military support. Some suggest that I have a naive world view. That’s okay with me. I just happen to believe you can get further with sugar than vinegar.

    My extended family has felt the sting of war many times. I never met two uncles who died during WWII. I lost another uncle in Korea. I lost a cousin in Vietnam. I lost eleven high school friends in Vietnam. I often wonder what positive contributions each of those people would have made had they lived. Several cousins, several of their children, nieces & nephews have served in our military. One nephew has spent three of the last five years in Iraq or Afghanistan. He was not physically injured during that service, but he is going to have serious emotional problems for the rest of his life.

    Our nation has paid a very heavy price for our military involvements around the world since WWII. I just think we need to find another way.

  30. Kristen | November 13, 2012 at 7:56 am

    JohnW, please point out where anyone talked about “unincorporating” or anything along those lines? It’s almost impossible to try discussing this country’s flaws without someone getting all bent about it.

  31. Sandi Saunders | November 13, 2012 at 8:55 am

    Excellent point Nosaj, no, we don’t ask and we just assume they even know what it is we are pushing when clearly they do not. Our democracy was not foisted upon us, we chose it and fought for it. Destiny is a personal and a national thing and it has to be internal. You are right, often when we push in and force elections, we get a very different result than we wanted. We need to stop meddling in sovereign nations. And we seriously need to stop getting in bed with bad guys.

  32. Frank | November 13, 2012 at 9:50 am

    hey sandi,

    i can admit that our public education system is flawed. i can admit that our collective-bargaining system for taxpayer-funded employees is flawed. i can admit that our tax system is flawed. i can admit that our immigration system is flawed. i can admit that our aca is flawed. i can admit that our criminal justice system is flawed.

  33. MarkJ | November 13, 2012 at 10:11 am

    Nosaj#25 wrote “Mark and Ron, what would European countries say about the US reducing or eliminating a military presence there?”

    Nosaj – to add to Ron’s reply, in most of Europe, the U.S. base closings would be met with the same reaction that base closinngs in the U.S. would. There is a lot of local support business that has grown around the bases which would loose their main client base. It is worth noting that this client base is spending U.S. tax payer money, or shall I say transfering U.S. tax payer money. Other than that, I don’t think anyone gives a damn at this point. It is not considered a strategic question.

    A notable exception is Poland which is sharply divided on the subject, with a strong opposition party called PIS supporting US bases and participation in supporting US military adventures. PIS’ platform is quite narrow – ultra-Catholic doctrine (zero abortion policy), anti-European Union, and its favorite goal of hunting down “secret communist collaborators” from pre-1989 era. Not surprisingly this party is arguing that Poland needs U.S. bases to act as a trip wire to discourage a Russiann invasion which they think is imminent. PIS’ support is almost exclusively in rural Poland. Sound familiar?

    Other countries on the eastern side of EU do not have any movements close to PIS, although the 7 million people of the 3 Baltic countries that were former members of the Soviet Union have their friction with Russia. The Baltics issue is related to the fact that in much of that territory, ethnic Russians make up a majority and are stuck in a limbo – they don’t want to leave the lands where they set their roots, yet they consider themselves Russians who were members of the Soviet Union. Its a tough situation that history has dealt to this tiny corner of the world.

  34. John Wilburn | November 13, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Kristen:

    30.”JohnW, please point out where anyone talked about “unincorporating” or anything along those lines? It’s almost impossible to try discussing this country’s flaws without someone getting all bent about it.”

    I’m just talking about the globalism in general. The weaker our country gets, the more attractive it looks. Yeah, people get bent out of shape when we discuss how a president gets elected playing Santa Claus with the taxpayers’ money because we have such overwhelming numbers in society that want to cash in and consume the wealth their forefathers have acquired without any concern for their counrty whatsoever.

    Sandi:

    “We need to stop meddling in sovereign nations.”

    Yeah, and stary worrying about our own sovereignty again.

  35. MarkJ | November 13, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Ron May # 29 wrote: “I believe strongly that Israel has a right to exist. However, as Mark implied in a comment yesterday, the pro-Israel lobby in the U.S. has jerked our chain just about any time it wanted and we usually respond the way Israel wants us to. I believe that Israel is capable of defending itself. I know some will accuse me of being an anti-semite. I’m not.”

    Ron its been over a decade since Israel and its lobby stopped using the demand “Israel’s right to exist”. Araft & Co. agreed to that one in the early 1990s. The demand now is “Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state.”.

    Do you support this new demand? In your opinion, can this demand be met, while at the same time achieving a democracy as the U.S. understands the term?

    In the U.S., white’s of European origin are on the verge of becoming a minority according to some projections. In Israel, counting the occupied territories, the Palestinian population growth threatens to overtake the Jewish population. Would it be equivelent if the US started to claim it has a right to exist as a white-bread state?

    Former President Jimmy Carter regularly explores these topics and more. For example his New York Times Best Seller Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.

    Looking forward to your thoughts.

  36. Nosaj | November 13, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Mark and Ron, thank you for a most enlightening discussion. You have surpassed the extent of my understanding re: Europe and the Middle East, so I will just continue to read with great interest. I will say that I find Ron’s positions feel solid to me, but Mark, you obviously have great insight. Great stuff, gentlemen!

  37. Dan Casey | November 13, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Nosaj (and others):

    Mark’s next post delves into the topic of drinking, and a very peculiar outside-the-U.S. cocktail. It’s far more entertaining than it is thought-provoking. It’ll be up first thing Wednesday morning. Enjoy.

  38. Ron May | November 13, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    MarkJ, Nosaj & others,

    I will respond later tonight to Mark’s questions on the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. Today, I’ve have had several meetings, a memorial mass and have one more meeting I’m headed to in a few minutes. My post will likely be after 9 tonight. My views on the subject are very personal and may not reflect the world experience Mark has. :)

  39. Sandi Saunders | November 13, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    John Wilburn, the education system turns out illiterate and ignorant adults, the prisons hold our mentally ill and hundreds of innocent people have been convicted of felonies they did not commit, some being imprisoned for decades, pardon me if your constant whine about how put upon you are falls on mostly deaf ears.

  40. Sandi Saunders | November 13, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    Thanks for always proving my point Frank.

  41. Ron May | November 13, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    MarkJ,

    I am aware that Israel now wants recognition of its right to exist as a “Jewish” state. The change in their position on that issue, from the right to exist to the right to exist as a Jewish state, reminds me of a certain blogger Dan has participate quite often here. They stake out a position until the opposition says okay, and then they shift position and say “what I really meant was this.” Since Biblical times the territory we now call Israel has been multicultural and multireligious. For the Israelis to now say, in effect, they want to “purify” the country to provide rights only to Jews is ludicrous on its face. It’s sort of like some in this country who try to say the United States is a Christian nation. I probably need to stop there before I get in too much trouble with some of my fellow bloggers. :)

  42. Kristen | November 13, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    Get over it, JohnW.

  43. nosaj | November 13, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    Frank at #32, I agree that the systems you identify are flawed, as are most systems, public or private, to some degree. Are they so flawed that they are not salvageable? I don’t think so, but like most things with worth, it takes hard work and collaboration to make improvements. So, now the question becomes do you want to be part of the solution?

  44. Suzie | November 13, 2012 at 9:49 pm

    I suspect that if we started discussing timelines about when “now” began” we would have some disagreement.

    Mark J,
    I may owe your Eastern European chums an apology. Apparently they’re moving toward the free market while we’re moving away from it.

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