Getting nervous on the Monday OPEN thread
Shot by Dan
“You better stop,
Look around,
Here it comes,
Here it comes,
Here it comes,
Here it comes
Here comes your nineteenth nervous breakdown.”
Mike Jagger, Keith Richards
Here’s the YouTube video.
November 19, 2012 - 10:00 AM
I am at a meeting in Ohio the next 2 days so am not likely to post much. Just wanted to let Dan know & let him know my check to the Rescue Mission is on its way to the Mission. Hope my fellow bloggers will join me in support of the Rescue Mission in lRoanoke. Happy Thanksgiving to all!!
So, Frank. How am I a Nazi? I am willing to bet you don’t even know what “Nazi” is short for…
hey justin true,
…spoken like a true NAZI! I dub thee, “true nazi”.
Hey folks, speaking of Thanksgiving, I thought I’d post a riddle that I found funny…Happy Holiday!:
THE QUEEN’S RIDDLE
Obama met with the Queen of England. He asked her, “your majesty, how do you run such an efficient government”? Can you share any tips with me?
“Well”, said the Queen, “the most important thing is to surround yourself with intelligent people.” Obama frowned, “But how do I know the people around me are intelligent?”
The Queen sipped some tea, and said, “oh, that’s easy…just ask them to answer an intelligent riddle.” The Queen then pushed a button on the intercom. “Please send Tony Blair in here, would you?” Blair walked into the room and said, “yes, Your Majesty?”
The Queen smiled and said, “Answer this please, Tony. Your mother and father have a child. It is not your brother and it is not your sister. Who is it?” Without pausing, Blair said, “That would be me.” “Yes! Very Good,” said the Queen.
Obama went back home to ask Joe Biden the same question. “Joe, answer this for me. Your mother and your father have a child. It’s not your brother and it’s not your sister. Who is it?” Joe said, “I’m not sure, let me get back to you on that.” He went to his advisors, and posed the question to them. They had no answer as well.
Finally, Joe ran into Sarah Palin while out eating one night. Biden asked, “Sarah, can you answer this for me? Your mother and father have a child and it’s not your brother or your sister. Who is it?”
Sarah answered right back, “That’s easy, it’s me!” Biden smiled, said “thanks”, and went back to speak with Obama. “Say, I did some research, and I have the answer to that riddle. It’s Sarah Palin!”
Obama got up, stomped over to Biden, and angrily yelled to his face, “No, Joe, you idiot! It’s Tony Blair!”
Chuckle, chuckle!
Dan, I thought folks might want to know that the annual war on the nonexistent War on Christmas has started. Apparently kicked off by none other than good ol’ Part Robertson.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/robertson-miserable-atheists-trying-steal-christmas
Them mean ol’ Atheists… always trying to pull a fast one on P. Rob… Maybe he should have lunch with, Yahweh, and send an Earthquake in Africa… to punish US for OUR transgressions. The reason why Christmas is going away is because we are educating our women and *gasp* letting them vote!
Krugman, on The Twinkie Manifesto.
“There are, let’s face it, some people in our political life who pine for the days when minorities and women knew their place, gays stayed firmly in the closet and congressmen asked, “Are you now or have you ever been?” The rest of us, however, are very glad those days are gone. We are, morally, a much better nation than we were. Oh, and the food has improved a lot, too.”
Along the way, however, we’ve forgotten something important — namely, that economic justice and economic growth aren’t incompatible. America in the 1950s made the rich pay their fair share; it gave workers the power to bargain for decent wages and benefits; yet contrary to right-wing propaganda then and now, it prospered. And we can do that again.
It’s a good essay. Read the whole thing.
hey justin,
…glad you asked. ya see, when you go off and flippantly spout your belief that people who think differently than you should be “spayed or neutered”…well, you should be PROUD to join with the ranks of folks who make that very thought an anathema to most humans. the first thing that comes to mind with your comment is, “Nazi”. The second thing which comes to mind is, “Margaret Sanger”.
Which would you prefer? true nazi? or ms true?
Justin, I read this one time and need some clarification.
To be a true Atheist, you essentially have to know for a fact there is no God. Otherwise you are Agnostic which means you don’t believe it can be proven that either God does or does not exist.
Also, if you don’t mind, I am curious to know what has led you to become an Atheist?
Again, I am just curious to learn more as a believer, not as an attack or in a negative way.
pistol pete,
I can’t speak for Justin (we can only speak for Leon around here), but I can say that no one “becomes” an atheist. No one is a born believer.
pistol pete, we need to meet in person!
I think I’ve asked this before. Has anyone heard about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac? He lies awake all night, wondering if there really is a dog.
Frank, your son, lower case matt, called me a dog on several occasions and also mentioned I should be “put down” so mayhap you should back off whatever Justin has said that has you calling folks Nazis.
#8: PP, I read this and need some clarification.
To be a true Christian, you essentially have to accept for a fact that there is only the god of Christian theology, in particular the god of one’s chosen doctrine. Otherwise you are an ecumenical Theist, which means you think there is only one god for all theistic religions, from Hindu to Jew to Islam to Southern Baptist, a god who does not favor or legitimize one denomination over another one.
Also, I am curious to what has led you to become the denomination of Christian you are. Is it an outcome of a lifelong comparative study of the theology of a wide range of different religions? Is it different from the denomination of the family you were born into? If not, how much did the social circumstances of your life create a momentum for you accepting the particular beliefs you do?
pistol pete,
First, let me get a few definitions out of the way.
Atheist- a person who believes there is no god(s). OR A person who denies the existence of god(s).
Agnostic- An agnostic is a person who believes that the existence of a greater power, such as a god, cannot be proven or disproved.
Deist- Someone who believes that God created the universe, but completely separated himself from it.
Pantheist- The belief that God is everything and that everything is God.
OK, I just want to reach an agreement with you and other readers that these definitions are correct. Often when debating the existence or nonexistence of god(s), people want to play with words. I do know how to word play, but I prefer not to when being serious.
Second let me say that I am an Atheist in the sense that believe there is no such thing or being that we humans would name god. This includes all gods, Abrahamic, Hindu, Greek, Buddhist (although I think Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a supernatural belief).
I am an Atheist because I do not have the knowledge that proves the existence of any god(s). To be somewhat short, my personal morals will not let me believe in the god of the Abrahamic traditions. I believe those religions that stemmed from Abraham are disgusting, and truly immoral. Today, our morals as a society have superseded any and all morals that any ancient religion has tried to teach us.
We can have a go at this if you would like. I have no issues with that.
What type of believer are you? and why?
No one as far as i know knows for a fact God does or doesn’t
exist.
I believe there is a sun..at least as far as my senses go.
It could be an illusion..but if it is its a good one.
Some people used to and some still do that the sun is God..
and since it is the reason everything is alive on earth
that point is a little hard to argue.
I haven’t seen God..but Ive seen the sun..and it is powerful.
So much so that you do not dare look directly at The Source.
PP – “To be a true Atheist, you essentially have to know for a fact there is no God.”
Actually, atheism refers to the absence of theistic belief [that is a belief in the existence of some sort of god or gods]. Atheism doesn’t mean anything else – it isn’t a religion, a philosophy, a worldview, or anything similar. It actually is not the conviction that there are no gods, ghosts, angels, etc. Rather, it is the absence of a belief in those things.
During the practice of paganism, anyone who believed in just one god [monotheism] was considered an atheist.
6 America could overcome unions and high taxes (only for the extremely small super-earners) in the 1950s because Democrats at that time had some decency. They believed in everyone working and hated communism. This was before the “Great Society” which got so many Americans on the dole. It was also before the takeover of the media by the far-left extremists.
Just saw on the evening news that the University of Maryland’s Board of Regents voted to move to the Big Ten (or Twelve or Fourteen). A few threads back, I observed that the economy in the US couldn’t be all that bad if we can spend upwards of 6 BILLION dollar on the 2012 elections. That Maryland will spend 50 MILLION dollars to buy its way out of the ACC is equally dismaying. Now, I understand that the Terrapins stand to make a boat load of money in the Big Ten, but what good could be done for Maryland were a portion of that sum used to offset the costs of higher education for struggling undergrads? What about the lesser athletic programs that were just eliminated at Maryland because Maryland couldn’t afford them? Charades anyone?
Dan, Mr. Krugman’s article is indeed a good read – and insightful. I especially like how he posits that the “stakeholders” of the 1950′s have given way to the “stockholders” of today. When it is all about the money, most of us don’t do so well.
Dobbs #10, I do not believe that dog and God have those spellings for nothing. A dog will devote his life to you, give his life for you and never betray or leave you, by choice.
nosaj:
“That Maryland will spend 50 MILLION dollars to buy its way out of the ACC is equally dismaying.”
It’s all about the money. I know we live in a time where the geographical boundaries are more feasible to stretch, but regional rivalry games attended by true fans still hold a lot of appeal to me. WVU, Boston College, and Texas A&M have jumped to “foreign” conferences too. It’s a shame, but we’ll work through it and at least enjoy the games on TV.
A Christian is a follower of Christ and a believer in God. The denominations and divination of that simple truth are ALL man-made, man-driven and man-centric choices.
Faith (no matter the religion) is complete trust in something/someone you cannot prove exists. If there were iron clad facts you could touch and examine, it would be history, or explained phenomenon, but it would not be faith.
I cannot fathom that the earth, the cycles of life, the flora and fauna, the atmosphere, weather, innate love and devotion even before birth, the majesty of the oceans, the mountains, the incredible similarities in animal families and human families, etc are all just some uninstructed, unconnected event. THAT seems more far-fetched than a God of Creation to me.
And, even if it is all a fantasy that we sell ourselves, and I am wrong as wrong can be, I have lost nothing in the end.
Krugman nails it as usual. The difference is greed. There is no other difference.
hey sandi,
you can make all the assumtions you want…you know what doing that does, eh? now, it seems to me that you were being referred to, hypothetically, as “man’s best friend.” good ol’ ms true was referring to both Suzie and I by name, along with folks who think like us.
now, here’s a few thoughts for you to sink your canines into:
1. i think we have no chance of seeing obuma in his muslim head garb until after the mid-term elections.
2. i think Israel should enact an immediate “6-day war” approach to their current dilemma.
3. i think today’s stock market growth was due at least in some part to a correction to an under-valuation of Apple. This will pause, and the market will soon resume going sideways.
4. i think obuma will not voluntarily divulge the source of the revised “talking” points regarding Benghazi…unless he throws billary under the bus.
5. i think the U.S. economy will stay stagnant for the forseeable future.
6. if I’m wrong on #5, it will be that I missed the economy’s contraction.
7. i see NOTHING from the libs regarding jobs…except Twinkies.
8. I still chuckle at the post at #3.
What say you, or any other lib?
John Wilburn,
I was dismayed when Penn State joined the Big Ten. I became ok with it within several years. I’m still ok with it. At the end of the day, I think we’ll still cheer for our teams…along with missing the way things were.
I’m very pleased that my “adopted” team was begged to join the ACC.
Rutgers University is next for the Big 14. Both want the revenues from the Big 10 Network that they wont get from the ACC or the Big East. However the ACC got Notre Dame.
Frank, I think you are offensive and an idiot.
Kristen, I trust you’ll see this here: the announcement we saw was on Dec. 19, 2004, on the announcements page of the RT Sunday lifestyle section. I’ll bite my fingers to avoid posting jokes about this miracle birth occurring in that season of the year. There’s an old RT legend, maybe apocryphal, about a Dec. 24th traffic accident in Wise Co. headlined “Three Wise Men Die In Crash”.
I wish I’d saved the one with the smoking pregnant lady complaining about dust.
And does anyone know the name or anything of the chap from Roanoke who played guitar while contorted into a human pretzel on Letterman’s “Stupid Human Tricks” back in the ’90′s?
sandi,
Is that all? I was going for at least a trifecta. Two out-a three just doesn’t cut it. Darn.
By the way, do you, or any other lib, think that Israel should give in to Hamas’ demands to stop kicking their butt…hollow road?
When I want to discuss foreign policy with you Frank, I will go to the zoo.
Very interesting to be coming from the RSC
http://ia701204.us.archive.org/0/items/RscThreeMythsAboutCopyrightLaw/rsc_policy_brief_–_three_myths_about_copyright_law_and_where_to_start_to_fix_it_–_november_16_2012.pdf
**
RSC Policy Brief:
Three Myths about Copyright Law and Where to Start to Fix it:
November 16, 2012
SNIP
Thus, according to the Constitution, the overriding purpose of the copyright system is to “promote the progress of science and useful arts.” In today’s terminology we may say that the purpose is to lead to maximum productivity and innovation.
This is a major distinction, because most legislative discussions on this topic, particularly during the extension of the copyright term, are not premised upon what is in the public good or what will promote the most productivity and innovation, but rather what the content creators “deserve” or are “entitled to” by virtue of their creation. This lexicon is appropriate in the realm of taxation and sometimes in the realm of trade protection, but it is inappropriate in the realm of patents and copyrights.
SNIP
**
Hum?
Change afoot?
To have wit and a genuine sense of
Humor are admirable traits. Unfortunately Gomer (er Frank) has neither .
Re: my last.
Another book for my reading list — maybe yours, also.
http://tinyurl.com/bmaub4l
**
Forthcoming book on conservative and libertarian skepticism about our copyright system
by Jerry Brito on November 19, 2012
SNIP
I also hope that this dust-up sparks a debate within the “right” about our bloated copyright system, and so it’s propitious that in a couple of weeks the Mercatus Center will be publishing a new book I’ve edited making the case that libertarians and conservatives should be skeptical of our current copyright system. It’s called Copyright Unbalanced: From Incentive to Excess, and it is not a moral case for or against copyright; it is a pragmatic look at the excesses of the present copyright regime and of proposals to further expand it. The book features:
Yours truly making the Hayekian and public choice case for reform
Reihan Salam and Patrick Ruffini arguing that the GOP should take up the cause of reforming what is now a crony capitalist system
David Post explaining why SOPA was so dangerous
Tim Lee on the criminalization of copyright and the a use of asset forfeiture in enforcing copyright
Christina Mulligan explaining that the DMCA harms competition and free expression
Eli Dourado calculating that the system we have today likely far exceeds what we need in order to offer authors an incentive to create
Tom Bell suggesting five reforms for copyright, including returning to the Founders’ vision of what copyright should be
SNIP
**
#3
That’s a good one, Frank.
JW, when it becomes overwhelmingly about the money and very little about the collegiality of collegiate sports, I am no longer interested.
I second that Ms. Saunders! #26
I have noticed the, Frank Dirt, likes to change the subject and start name calling when he doesn’t have a point to make. Perhaps we shouldn’t feed the trolls, but what then?
Heads up for January:
http://dls.virginia.gov/pubs/briefs/Brief56.pdf
**
2013 Session: General Assembly Issues
This Issue Brief contains
descriptions of some of the
issues that appear likely to
capture the attention of
legislators at the 2013
Session of the General
Assembly. It is not intended
to be a comprehensive listing
of every issue that will be
considered. Unanticipated
issues will undoubtedly
surface, and some of the
issues discussed in these
pages may not be considered
during the 2013 Session.
Finally, and most importantly,
these descriptions are not
predictions of how the
General Assembly will
respond to any issue.
SNIP
**
Ms. Saunders,
I believe that we have pretty much settled our differences in the matters of religion on a prior thread, but I would like to make a point if I may?
“I cannot fathom that the earth, the cycles of life, the flora and fauna, the atmosphere, weather, innate love and devotion even before birth, the majesty of the oceans, the mountains, the incredible similarities in animal families and human families, etc are all just some uninstructed, unconnected event. THAT seems more far-fetched than a God of Creation to me.”
I can see your point in saying that you can see proof in a god in all of the beautiful things this Earth has to offer, but what of the nasty ugly things? Such as hunger? Cancer? HIV/AIDS?
What of the people of this world of whom do not deserve the suffering that is imposed on them, whether it be by religious folks or irreligious? I watched a crime show a few months ago, a man broke into a house, killed the parents and the oldest son, he was 12, and then he kidnapped the 9 year old boy and 7 year old girl. He camped in the woods with these beautiful, innocent children for 6 weeks. The whole time molesting and raping these children until they could bear no more… for 6 weeks! He then took these children to an abandoned cabin, tied the little boy up, vertical with his hands tied to the wall and raped him in front of his sister… he forced her to watch. After he was done, mind you he is forcing the sister to watch, he got his shotgun and shot the little boy in the face and then set him on fire in front of his sister. He took the little girl to a diner, and a waitress recognized the little girl, and called the police and the man was arrested. The cops asked why he done what he had done to such an extreme and he said, “It has always been a fantasy to have two little ones at the same time.”
My point is this, if people who worship any god, a god-creator, can give this deity credit for creating mountains, for putting food on their plate, for getting them a job, for getting their son into college, for getting them elected to president… if he gets credit for those wonderful things, if you give him credit for those wonderful things, you must give him credit for the torture and deaths of the 2 children I told you about here, and you must give him credit for the children in similar circumstance. You can blame the Devil all you like, your God still must stake claim to these deeds.
You and many others say what if I am wrong… well what if you are wrong as well? What if the Muslims are right? Then you will be in hell with me.
What if you are right? Well simply for what your God let happen to just these 2 children alone I would rather spend eternity in hell than grovel at the feet of such a god as that! I will spend my life as a great and moral man simply off of my own morals, and the morals afforded to me by our ever progressing and ever evolving society that in fact do supersede the morals of such a dastardly, disgusting, and outdated morals of this supposed Christian nation.
If there was a god, the god you worship, don’t you think he would have stepped in and stopped this event and many others? I cannot say there isn’t a god, I CAN say there is not any evidence for a god’s existence.
#23 Seeing that it comes from you, Frank, I’d say odds are it’s almost completely wrong.
From Daily Beast; The story behind the most viral photo ever.
From Raw Story; Democrats sweep last undecided House races.
Daily Beast; The story behind the most viral photo ever.
Of course it was real. After all, this was at a political rally.
Reminiscent of the “spontaneous” photo of Clintons dancing on the beach that showed just how much in love they were. I believe it was a month before the Lewisnky story broke.
What if you are right? Well simply for what your God let happen to just these 2 children alone I would rather spend eternity in hell than grovel at the feet of such a god as that! I will spend my life as a great and moral man simply off of my own morals, and the morals afforded to me by our ever progressing and ever evolving society that in fact do supersede the morals of such a dastardly, disgusting, and outdated morals of this supposed Christian nation.
God does allow free will. And He does allow bad things to happen. Earth is not a perfect place. God calls upon us to make life the very best we can for our fellow man.
Justin, I hear what you say about following your own morals and such. But I honestly can say I have never met an atheist whose life is in order. Most of them have a giant chip on their shoulder. I don’t think I’ve met a single one who was unfailingly kind and generous. They live for themselves and for today. I admit this is just my anecdotal experience.
#41 Look, now suzie’s suggesting that Obama is about to have an affair.
Suzie,
Free will is free will whether or not a god or gods exist or not. But the truth is the Christian god does not allow free will. If you believe prayer has any effect on your life or life as a whole, you are saying that god interjects, curbs or flat out changes the outcomes of events that free will was supposed to set into motion. This happens many times in the bible. Even the god of both Testaments do not allow total free will.
I refuse to believe a god would allow someone like Paris Hilton have such a worry free, extravagant life, having not really worked a day, but having everything given to her by her god supposedly and then he sits back and watches children get raped with indifference. One thing I hear Christians say all of the time, “God doesn’t put anything more on you than what you can handle”. Really? How about this little fella? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8JORl1CAAAnnKx.jpg:large
The fact that some live such horrible and unbelievable lives and people use that line for their suffering is unfathomable to me.
I also understand that most Atheists, to you, are arrogant. I wish I could say that I would come off different to you or any other believer. But I can’t. Some people feel threatened by someone believing differently than they do and their reactions and situation interpretations are different.
My life is in order. I have a beautiful family, a great job, a small business, and I am a full time student at VWCC, and I will be transferring to VT within the next year. I didn’t have the best upbringing, but I am making the best of my short life and trying to prove to my children that no matter where you start in life you can in fact do whatever, and be whatever you want if you work for it. I raise my children with the best morals and walk the straightest of lines possible, and I do all of this with the love and support of my family, no deity needed. I do not need a promise of reward to live my life to the fullest, with morality.
When I speak to believers on the subject of god, I try my best to not speak with an attitude or arrogance, but sometimes it calls for it. One of my favorite things to do is to sit and discuss this, if you or anyone would like to contact myself and meetup somewhere, I think it would be fun. Email me at: atheismbyfire@gmail.com
- Sandi, did you ever see my post from Friday open thread?
- I didn’t ask my questions to get into a contest. Justin, thanks for the information..
- Warren, I am a Christian because I believe the Bible to be true. Its that simple
Suzie:
“But I honestly can say I have never met an atheist whose life is in order.”
Selective observation
“Most of them have a giant chip on their shoulder.”
No, your talking about the bible bangers
“I don’t think I’ve met a single one who was unfailingly kind and generous.”
No, you just assume all kind and generousfolks are religious
“They live for themselves and for today.”
Pure crap.
“I admit this is just my anecdotal experience.”
This last line was the disclaimer. The post was written for attention, is total BS, and she knew it when she wrote it.
One of my agents had a client who was overboard religious. Complete with an end-times flow chart on her wall (for real! She had young children to scare with hell). I went with the agent to meet the client for a second opinion on listing price and other suggestions. The client seemed to like me and said I “have a nice spirit”. She then said “you’re a believer, aren’t you?” I said “No, I’m a skeptic”. It surprised her. Had it not come up, she would never have assumed such. Like Suzie, she assumes a lot in the name of making what she sees fit her ideal.
John Wilburn,
Nice shot on every point! I think that being an Atheist, or a person who believes in a differing faith than that of Christianity, is quite difficult right now in the bible belt. I think one thing that would help our society move forward from this issue would be for the vast majority if Christians to throw away the predisposition that in order to be a good moral, and even happy as, Suzie, pointed out, you have to believe in god, or be a Christian. Since I started Southern Virginia Atheists in September, we have grown from a few Atheists who wanted good conversation with like minded people to close to 40 Atheist/Agnostic folks who get together with families and do fun things with our kids, and we talk about issues in the world and how to be better people. Not only for ourselves, but for all of our society, and world. We do not feel the need to look to the sky for answers when we have our own logic, and rationalism right here in front of us, and now we have great friends and family to help us along the way.
We Atheists are a minority, we are good, moral, and just people as well. Christians fail to realize one thing… you say Thor, and Zeus do not exist. So that makes you an Atheist too. We are all Atheists, I just take it one god further than you.
Justin True:
“and I will be transferring to VT within the next year.”
When you do, feel free to stop by. My office is right in downtown.
pistol pete, I’m the skeptic in my house sharing a roof with a believer, and we had a big religious debate last night at Fork on a topic I’d like your input on. To me it’s a huge sticking point with buying into the Christianity narrative, and I keep waiting for someone to give me an answer I can accept.
I know there’s this bit in the Bible that claims that people can only get into Heaven through Jesus, which seems to have spawned this whole “Born Again” movement and a borderline fetishization of him. My question is…where does that leave 1.25 billion Buddhist Asians? Are they born immediately doomed to burn in hell because of a matter of geography over which they have no control? If everyone is a “child of God”, he surely should be able to do something about that.
This makes no sense to me. I refuse to believe in a God that consigns 25% of the planet to hell over something they have no control over.
John,
Will do! I like to get up that way every once in a while to see friends and partake in a beverage or seven… so I will definitely look you up.
Though my stance on religion is known here, I’ve tried to stay out of discussions on the topic lately. Ron May and pistol pete have made me realize that I’ve really been attacking religion and not actually debating it. I don’t want to drive anyone away from their faith; some people truly need it. I don’t necessarily think that having faith is a sign of weakness. The hope and faith that something better is just beyond the horizon has driven us to great accomplishments. One could argue that without faith, we would’ve have never striven to further our species.
I’m a logical guy, though. When I see the illogical, it’s hard for me not to highlight and often ridicule it. I seem to have no problem with tearing apart Christianity online, but rarely am I so rabid in the real world. I volunteer my work and time with Mormon, Methodist and Catholic churches and I keep my mouth shut while within their respective temples. I enjoy the work I do there and respect the people I’ve met. They are genuinely goodhearted people and I admire them, and so I bite my tongue.
In my experience, just as I tend to be more extreme online, so do religious zealots. These people are seldom good representatives for their religions and in fact, they often drive people away from it. In that same vein, I can’t be a good representative of the agnostic POV if I’m railing against Christians.
My experiences in life have soured me to Christianity. More accurately, my experiences with so-called Christians have soured me. I’m fine with the religion as it is, but I can’t tolerate the people who just won’t allow themselves to see the imperfectness of it all. I can only hope that I get to question my creator one day as to why. I don’t think many of today’s fundamentalist Christians would be able to handle the answers their God would give. The sheer indifference of it all would be too much for them to bear.
IMO, the major downfall of all religions is their inability to adapt to changing societal norms. Without adapting to environmental stimuli, be they physical or spiritual, the human race would’ve perished long ago. Setting beliefs in stone, and condemning all who question or attempt to modify them is an unsustainable strategy. Human history has proven that all religions change; those that are more willing to bend with the winds of change last the longest, while those that were most rigid or illogical fall to the wayside. It’ll take at least another thousand years to see how the Abrahamic religions play out. After all, almost six thousand years worth of polytheistic religions predate them.
Justin True:
“I think one thing that would help our society move forward from this issue would be for the vast majority if Christians to throw away the predisposition that in order to be a good moral, and even happy as, Suzie, pointed out, you have to believe in god, or be a Christian.”
This is a HUGE problem. They are taught from birth that we are all sinners and bad by nature until we are “washed by the blood of the lamb” and saved. While it’s a brilliant system for perpetuating beliefs, it is detrimental to society. Just like scientists one day figured out that the earth was not flat, but it took a while to convince everybody, it will take a very long time for people to realize there is more truth beyond the Bible.
“We Atheists are a minority, we are good, moral, and just people as well.”
I’ve been burned by many a “Christian” in business, but not by one openly atheist customer or client. There’s a particular ethical disconnect that only a “Christian” client can acquire where they aren’t concerned about their fellow man because they have only one “person” to please, their Heavenly Father. It’s not all or most of them, but more than enough of them to dispell any notion of “good Christian church-goin’ people” getting more trust or credibility in business. That happens all too often. In fact, there is one particular, reputable church in the New River Valley whose members I have had so many bad dealing with in business, that I have and am still considering contacting their pastor to ask what gives? By contrast, the atheist clients are usually better if only for the simple reason that I can virtually always appeal to their logic and reason when making decisions.
I even had one of the “Christian” clients, and I mean a talk-the-talk, professed to be devout “Christian”, drop me in favor of another buyer’s agent claiming it was “God opening a door for them”. In reality, they were unable to qualify without the sale of their current home and did not like my reality-based advice which supported what they showed when looking, but not what they were telling me. I had them figured out, but just couldn’t agree. A few months later, despite saying they wanted a house in the country with an acre, the overpayed for a shiny fairly new townhouse. Though I would gladly have sold them whatever they wanted, I encouraged them to buy something with better resale because of their situation. A year later, they sold the townhouse at a loss. This was before the market downturn, too, and solely because they made an awful deal. Then, I heard through the grapevine they were telling their friends how the “trials” were from God.
NO, the trials were their own making! They had professional advice that proved worthy of taking, but wouldn’t listen to it. This is just ONE example of many like it and several worse, of dealing with this kind of Evangelical. I could write a whole book about doing business with “Christians”.
Christians: Don’t like this reputation? Earn a better one!
Justin, I hear what you are saying. Unlike a lot of Christians, I do not believe God micromanages the world He created. Even in the cycles of life that create chaos for a moment and grief for a lifetime, there is something to be learned, something to be gained and something to be treasured. I have been in churches all of my life, spread over several denominations and I have had many Agnostic and Atheist friends. I accept that I am not meant to understand everything. I would not want to know it all at any rate. The majesty convinces me of God’s power of creation and the tragedy, natural disasters and man made evil convinces me that he left us to our own devices to make of our life what we will as we will.
I do not argue that any religious text is the “inerrant”, “infallible word of God” or that mankind, myself included is solely “right” about any belief in God. I accept that I could be wrong, I just fail to see the harm in it either way. I do not use my faith or religion as a weapon, I do not use it as a wedge and I most assuredly do not use it as a soapbox unless directly asked/challenged, or in such a discussion as we are having. Faith is a personal journey that may be witnessed but it cannot be undertaken by anyone except the person involved.
FWIW, a God who would meddle and interfere in situations is a gamer, not a God IMHO. That is man’s projection. Bad things have to happen or we never can truly appreciate the good. Death has to happen or we never appreciate life. I think that we are God’s creation, not his toys, not his friends, not even his worshipers. I think some will be surprised to find that last part to be the secret.
I watched the sweetest woman ever born on this earth die a slow, painful humiliating death of inches due to Parkinson’s. My dad that I worshiped died suddenly when I was 23. My brother struggles with mental illness and alcoholism. I am working class stock from a long way back. I know and have known suffering, defeat, agony and pain. When I needed the strength to persevere, I was granted the Grace of God to do so.
I cannot prove I am right, you cannot prove I am wrong. Let’s just live and let live and be happy with our choice.
Here’s another one from just a month ago…
A friend of mine owns a large equipment repair facility where I have done lots of work over the years. One of the employees was a dedicated, professing “Christian”. He had a history of bickering with the other employees on occasion about religious matters and had a notable verbal fight with another devout “Christian” of a different flavor, the black activist flavor. His last argument was with another employee over the radio. The other employee was listening to rock, but the “Christian” would ONLY listen to a certain reigious station. He also could not tolerate the country or rock, from a regular FM radio station, that his coworker played at a considerate volume. The “Chritian” felt as if the secular music would cause him to “backslide”. The boss had to get rid of him.
The “Christian” had an opportunity to witess to everybody in that shop by being the change he wanted to see, but absolutely blew it! No body wants to be that neurotic! Everyone in that shop remembers him as the “Christian” who couldn’t get along with anyone. Remind you of a certain blog?!
Despite what one blogger here would tell you, there is no war against Christianity. Christianity is harming its own reputation one stupid event like this at a time.
Kristen:
“My question is…where does that leave 1.25 billion Buddhist Asians? Are they born immediately doomed to burn in hell because of a matter of geography over which they have no control?”
Yep! That’s what the Christians believe.
J.M. White:
“IMO, the major downfall of all religions is their inability to adapt to changing societal norms.”
But in their opinion, society shouldn’t be changing and is only doing so because they are straying from God.
Kristen:
“I refuse to believe in a God that consigns 25% of the planet to hell over something they have no control over.”
J.M. White:
“It’ll take at least another thousand years to see how the Abrahamic religions play out. After all, almost six thousand years worth of polytheistic religions predate them.”
These two comments are perfect examples of the big picture that many faiths don’t want their followers to see. I’d love to read a history book printed 1,000 years from now.
Kristen,
I may be an Atheist, but I do like to study the Christian religion and I was raised in a Southern Baptist home so I may be able to answer your question. I am sure that a Christian somewhere may have a different opinion, but this is what I was told when I asked that same question as a little boy. What happens to people that never get to know the Christian religion, and people who are forced to believe and practice a different religion?
My dad and our preacher told me that god would overlook that. He would simply judge them on their life and nothing else. Quite simple right? I guess so, that is the only answer I was ever able to get.
The funny thing was my dad always threatened me with hell when I questioned things like that growing up, when I was taught evolution in the 7th grade he told me not to believe it or I would go to hell. When I questioned anything and tried to give my own explanation, I was not to question his god. So, when I meet a fundamentalist, I always like to ask how often they verbally abuse their inquisitive children.
Lastly, a Christian who condemns others of differing faith or no faith at all, is not a Christian as I understand the Bible. Period. The book they thump but apparently do not understand advises them again and again not to judge, not to condemn and not to belittle. It says plainly to love, to be patient, to be kind, to be forgiving, it actually does. It says God will judge, it never says we can. If you believe the Bible teaches you to bring people to God and to faith, you cannot do that by condemning whole groups of people, and by making it worse by doing so on the most specious and reckless of “evidence”. Even if you believe something is a “sin”, you do not combat sin by committing sin.
From my own observation, Atheist and Agnostic folk are just as moral, honest, decent and “upright” as any Christian I have ever known, more so than some. With very, very few exceptions.
J.M. White, All I can say is that I hope that you will stick up for your beliefs more often. Perhaps, pistol pete, and Ron May, may feel that you are attacking their personal religion and they are taking it personally. I really cannot speak for this because I do not know what exactly was said. I will say this, I do not like religion, and I do not think it has truly done anything to help our world. If anything it has hurt the progression of societies. I am what many would call an Anti-theist. You do not believe, you speak out against religion, you debate against it and you ridicule religion. So what? If you are willing to throw your religion around as if it is true, you need to be prepared to defend it. Like Christopher Hitchens says, “What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without it.” Religions are so used to having their way and forcing you to believe their superstition that when someone speaks against it, we are the negative ones. We are militant. And that is the funny thing about it. A Militant Muslim carries a bomb, A Militant Christian carries a gun, A Militant Atheist carries a pen… there is something wrong here.
God either is real, or he isn’t. This is no middle ground. Where is the evidence… nowhere to be found.
hey John Wilburn,
Unfortunatly, there appear to be many professed “Christians”…who clearly aren’t, which does tend to give Christianity a bad name. In fact, I believe that simple aspect of human life…dishonesty…is the bane of all institutions which are based on honesty.
I’d love to read a history book printed 1,000 years from now.
Comment by John Wilburn — November 20, 2012 @ 12:41 pm
JW,
Given the nature of what’s happening to print material in today’s world, I doubt books will be around in 1000 years. Nonetheless, if they are, perhaps you can read one in eternity.
Kristen, John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No One gets to the Father but through me”
This verse is the foundation of why some Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and that if Christians would live out the Great Commission like they are suppose to then all would have been at least reached with the presentation of the Gospel (Matthew 28:16-20 – Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them…) This is why so so so many churches who base all their doctrine on the bible, support worldwide missions so heavily.
I understand where you struggle with that. I would be lying if I didn’t at times as well. However, I also believe that if every Christian would live (including myself) as Jesus did, then we probably wouldn’t be having a discussion on here.
What “institution” is “based on honesty”?
pistol pete, that is such a dodge. Do those people go to hell or not?
Ron May:
“JW,
Given the nature of what’s happening to print material in today’s world, I doubt books will be around in 1000 years. Nonetheless, if they are, perhaps you can read one in eternity.”
Dr. May, not one particle of will exist in 1,000 years in any tangible or intangible way.
“Religion is like a pair of shoes…..Find one that fits for you, but don’t make me wear your shoes.” ― George Carlin
“We must hold to our particular and peculiar beliefs tenaciously, not pretending that all religions are the same, for they are patently not the same. We must be ready to learn from one another, not claiming that we alone possess all truth and that somehow we have a corner on God.” — Archbishop Desmond Tutu
“Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith” — Benedict XVI.
“For you see, in the end, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.” ― Mother Teresa
“The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom.” — John Paul II
“Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.” — Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church
“God has no religion.” ― Mahatma Gandhi
God is not upset that Gandhi was not a Christian, because God is not a Christian! All of God’s children and their different faiths help us to realize the immensity of God. — Archbishop Desmond Tutu
And my favorite:
God’s love is too great to be confined to any one side of a conflict or to any one religion. — Archbishop Desmond Tutu
well, sandi,
I’d say that many good ones are, or are intended to be, until the dishonest aspect of human nature appears. Take religion, as one example. The institution of religion is about as good as the folks who follow it. Religion can be good, it can be over-whelmingly good, or it can be awful, and all things in between…based on, in my opinion, the success-level of dishonesty.
Justin True: Ron May was incredibly respectful and sincere in presenting his side of the religious argument. His forthright and non-proselytizing manner was a very productive approach. I have nothing but the utmost respect for him.
pistol pete has had something of a conversion lately. He used to be very assertive, even aggressive, in his comments about God. He was one of the rare few who’ve come to realize that they’re doing more harm than good when they present their faith in such a manner. For this, I award him huge amounts of respect, as such an epiphany seems to be increasingly rare these days.
It’s been their actions, not their words that have convinced me to ease back on my anti-religious rhetoric. I am rewarding civility with civility. My beliefs haven’t wavered one bit, and I don’t hesitate to share them. I’m just toning down my aggressiveness and ridicule.
I still hold firmly to the belief that we don’t know all the variables involved in this universe. I believe that until we can define all variables in the equation, we cannot even begin to accurately ponder the origin of the equation itself. With that, there’s something in your comment that warrants further clarification, if you’d humor me:
God either is real, or he isn’t. This is no middle ground. Where is the evidence… nowhere to be found.
What is “real”? How do you define reality? If you mean the things constrained within our three-dimensional universe, can you not accept the possibility that the construct of reality is the creation of an entity that would by definition exist outside of that reality? I know it’s a Schroedinger’s Cat scenario, but quantum mechanics postulates that God could both exist and not exist until observed from the outside. Given that we’re constrained within this reality, is it not paradoxical that we could observe God at all, since he [in this scenario] exists outside of it?
Also… does that mean that he’s not real? Relative to his reality, of course, he exists but perhaps his reality contains our own within it. Wouldn’t that mean that in our reality we’re real but he isn’t, and in his reality, we’re both real? I don’t think that the reality of God is as black-and-white as you think it is. I’m not searching for middle ground at all; I just don’t think that we have a firm grasp yet of what is “real” and what is not.
WOW! I would just like to say what a thoughtful and great thread this has turned out to be. There are so many questions and scenarios to think about at this moment.
I would like to say that I am particularly impressed with Ms. Saunder’s interpretation of her faith in God. The way she chooses to follow her faith and use faith to live her life in a positive way, I feel that even an Atheist can learn something from her interpretation; her life’s walk.
John Wilburn, with his life experiences on why he cannot and will not trust a Christian, well not that far, perhaps he is more weary of Christians than he should be, as are most Atheists. I had never thought about what the authors of our time period in history would say… or I have thought about it, but not in depth until John W. mentioned it.
J.M. White, I think reality is what we can understand with our known five senses. We can ask the questions of “What if God lives in another dimension?” To be honest, I cannot give a detailed answer on God and our reality, but I can say this, I do not see any evidence of any God that resides in our KNOWN reality. There are some things I just cannot answer at this point in my life.
I think if God does exist outside of our time/space and he refuses to step in, I would hope that he would have enough intestinal fortitude to understand why I doubted his existence. If he exists and he can step in and change things anytime he wanted, and never did, I hope he understands why I hate him as bad as I do. As I go through my life and I think about all of the horrible atrocities that has happened in the past and we mortals were forced to witness these things, shear torture to most of us… things what nightmares are made of.
But the great thing for me is this. I do not believe in God. I will live my life as this is my only life and I will treat others as if it is their only life. Religion and the God hypothesis is man’s first attempt at science and philosophy. I don’t think there was ever a truly positive driving force from religion. I think it is time that humanity to reside in rationality, reason, logic, and most of all, an observable reality.
“And here is the point, about myself and my co-thinkers. Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
Justin,
If you look upon the night sky, with all it’s wonder and beauty, can you believe it just “happened”?
If you look upon the interaction of a mother and a child, can you believe it just “happened”?
If you have ever felt the complete peace of doing “that which is right”, or a night when things have gone wrong, and you can still find peace… do you believe that just “happened”?
None of us have all “knowledge”, I would love to have that myself. Ultimately many of us work on faith, “that which is not seen”.
There is a greater force working towards your betterment, it is emblematical in your post… I wish you the best in your search…
Justin True:
“John Wilburn, with his life experiences on why he cannot and will not trust a Christian, well not that far, perhaps he is more weary of Christians than he should be…”
Not really, but I certainly don’t give them extra trust or credibility because of it like a lot of folks I know do. Christians and pseudo Christians are all I knew growing up. It has given me a broad perspective on the varieties they come in.
I have many trustworthy friends who are Christians, but it was not that Christianity that earned my trust.
Justin True,
To me, you are admitting your outspoken atheism is of a negative essence, rather than a positive one. For example, I don’t go to mass or meet with other Christians to blast nonbelievers or their agenda. We meet to celebrate God.
I find it odd you would make such a cause out of something you don’t believe in as to create an organization for other non-believers in the area. It validates my contention atheists have a chip on their shoulder. I mean, your group obviously doesn’t get together to discuss the joy of atheism. I am sure, and can tell by your posts your mission is to somehow “stop” theists, especially Christians.
This makes no sense to me. I refuse to believe in a God that consigns 25% of the planet to hell over something they have no control over.
That’s certainly not true of the Catholic Church. We believe virtuous non-Christians can make it to Heaven, as well. From all accounts, I would suspect Gandhi is in Heaven.
pistol pete has had something of a conversion lately. He used to be very assertive, even aggressive, in his comments about God. He was one of the rare few who’ve come to realize that they’re doing more harm than good when they present their faith in such a manner. For this, I award him huge amounts of respect, as such an epiphany seems to be increasingly rare these days.
I’ve notice Christians are not allowed to be assertive or aggressive in their views, while atheists are. It’s the same with conservatives and liberals. You see that in this blog all the time.
It’s also why Republicans who were caught in a scandal real or imagined always resigned while Democrats who did far worse never resigned. David Vitter was the first Republican to tell the media to drop dead, and he stayed on.. Since then our side has smartened up and refused to play their game.
But it is a technique of communist strategies as voiced by Saul Alinsky:
Alinsky rule #4:
“Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.”
Suzie:
“I mean, your group obviously doesn’t get together to discuss the joy of atheism.”
I’ve never been to one of their meetings, but I would say that they discuss all kinds of things because of thier free thought and speech that the religious never know. There is joy in being truly free of the ingrained guilt and fear that religion preserves itself with. Once people are free of those shackles, it makes life and socializing much better. Just my two cents; your mileage may vary.
“I am sure, and can tell by your posts your mission is to somehow “stop” theists, especially Christians.”
I’ll let Justin speak for himself, but you have it bass acwards. It’s the Christians who seem to have less tolerance and want government to reflect their values. Persoanlly, I don’t want to stop anyone from being a Christian, but do want them to know the freedom and real peace of mind that I have from getting out from under the spell and firebranding of my youth.
Suzie: You don’t have to post Alinsky strategies for us to see them in action. All anyone needs to do is review your comments on this blog for the past year. You’ve covered pretty much every strategy in Saul’s playbook. Were you highlighting by example? In fact, your employment of those tactics by your own definition makes you an America-hating communist. Give it a rest and leave the accusations to people that have some shred of credibility remaining.
Until you can admit that you were wrong about, well, pretty much everything over the last year without blaming someone else, voting improprieties or capitalist-hating aliens from Jupiter, you remain a running joke with nothing to add even remotely worth considering. No one here is yet convinced that you’re a leopard which has changed its spots.
Suzie is certainly proving her capacity for dishonesty and that the right wingers study Saul Alinsky ten times more than any liberal does.
It is always a good discussion when people will check their hatred and dishonesty. Some are not capable but it is the only way we progress. Thanks for the genuine posts guys.
well said sandi.
Suzie,
John Wilburn is correct. We get together and talk about many things. The mast recent meeting was myself and five other families got together with our kids at Longwood Park in Salem and carved pumpkins. We carved pumpkins, had lunch, bragged about how smart our children were, played on the playground… just an all around good time. The only thing being worshiped was our kids. We do not need to worship anything to enjoy each other’s company. That is why myself and others want and need a group like Southern Virginia Atheists. So our children can just be children without the judgement that comes with being around a strictly Christian atmosphere. We talk about how to raise our children morally without the threats of a religion.
I often get asked, what if your children choose to worship a god, or more specifically, what if they grow up to be Christian? That is their choice. I do not want to force them to believe as I, nor do I want them to feel as I would be disappointed. The only way I would feel disappointed is if they made tat decision to follow, or out of fear for what they do not know. I want them to make an educated decision on their own, not to follow me or anyone else.
Another reason why I started this group is for the diversity. We have such a great group of people. We have physicists, lawyers, doctors, nurses, engineers, laborers… we are from all walks of life, people that my children can look up to and learn from because they are intelligent free thinking individuals who have struggled with life’s choices and have done well and know where to place the credit.
voting improprieties
Glad you brought that up, J.M.White, Did you know you have a better chance of sinking 10 straight holes in one blindfolded on a par-5 hole than 0bama had of sweeping 59 precincts by a vote of 19620 to 0.
Sure, Suzie. Now explain to me your methodology of coming up with that comparative probability. Until then, you’re talking out of your rear-end, as usual. Still, I’m all ears if you’d care to explain how you came to that.
When you come to me with evidence of around 3,000,000 fraudulent votes, we’ll talk. You’re 2,980,000 votes short.
Do you sleep with those clown shoes on?
John
Have you read, Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett? Great book! Your last post reminded me of that book. I have 2 copies if you would like to read it. Dennett, is one of my favorite authors.
And to our Christian friends I would suggest, Godless by Dan Barker. He was an Evangelical Christian into his forties. Great read regardless of your faith or lack thereof.
I also enjoy reading books from every angle of religious view points. So I welcome any suggestions anyone may have.
Suzie, you are truly the gift that keeps on giving.
Justin, when my dad died, a dear friend (and my boss) gave me the book
When Bad Things Happen to Good People. It helped me see my faith and the truth I adopted. It has served me well for the many years since. I think we are all entitled to define our journey as we see fit and IMO, we should all live our life as if we will have to account for it at some point whether it is true or not. We can choose to do that through faith in God or in our own capability or any combination we choose. That is the beauty of it. Force or coercion is wrong.
I enjoy sitting in church, hearing the sermon (which often leaves my toes bruised), singing the hymns, learning and discussions in Sunday School, the pot luck dinners, and the friends I know love and value me. To each their own.
I’ll not be reading “Breaking the Spell” but is the premise that we are brain-washed or under some influence other than the free will to worship God or not?
Sure, Suzie. Now explain to me your methodology of coming up with that comparative probability. Until then, you’re talking out of your rear-end, as usual. Still, I’m all ears if you’d care to explain how you came to that.
Actually my model was too generous to 0bama due to a miscalculation. Thanks for pointing it out. But to give you a clue, J.M. White, assume a given probability of 96% 0bama, which as I said was probably too high. So, take an average precinct total of say 400 votes. 96% is 388. Then if you apply a perfectly random expectation for the remaining 12 votes, which again gives 0bama a generously unrealistic edge, the chances of his sweeping that precinct are 1 out of 2 to the 12th power which is 1 in 4096. for one precinct. Now take that 4096 to the 59th power. The chances are actually 1 in 2 to the 12th power, to the 59th power. What’s that? About 1 in 2 to the 700th power? So that’s like a BB within the Milky Way plus several hundred other galaxies.
Good luck finding that puppy.
Suzie, you are truly the gift that keeps on giving.
Translation: “I have NO idea what those big numbers mean.”
A chance of 1 in 2 to the 700th power of 0bama sweeping 59 counties. That WOWS me. And this little ol’ cowgirl ain’t easily wowed.
Well said, folks. I enjoyed the freedom of this thread.
Again Suzie, they were precincts not counties. 19620 divided by 59 averages 330+/- people per precinct. Not AVERAGE precincts but predominantly minority and Democratic precincts. 3.5% of the 1687 total Philadelphia precincts. Get over yourself and your ridiculous “big numbers”, you are looking more foolish with every post. Whining does not become you Norma.
John Wilburn is correct. We get together and talk about many things. The mast recent meeting was myself and five other families got together with our kids at Longwood Park in Salem and carved pumpkins. We carved pumpkins, had lunch, bragged about how smart our children were, played on the playground… just an all around good time. The only thing being worshiped was our kids. We do not need to worship anything to enjoy each other’s company. That is why myself and others want and need a group like Southern Virginia Atheists. So our children can just be children without the judgement that comes with being around a strictly Christian atmosphere. We talk about how to raise our children morally without the threats of a religion.
If you don’t talk about religion, or lack of religion, why even bother with the “Atheists” handle for your group?
It’s absurd to say your “children can be children without judgment.” Do you think Christians (or any other group) sit around and judge each other’s kids? They don’t.
Justin True:
83.”John
Have you read, Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett?”
No, but I’ve been wanting to read “The God Delusion”. I’ve heard it’s good. I read more technical and history books than anything. “Breaking the Spell” or “The God Delusion” would be a nice change of pace.
I accept your methodology, Suzie, though I do not agree with it. Personally, I’d apply the 96% like a half-life, given the precincts’ abhorrence to the other candidate. Even then, the odds of him sweeping the votes are around the same as flipping a coin and having it land on edge.
I’m willing to play this out, though. I’d like to see if you can carry your theory far enough to tip the election in Romney’s favor. Please demonstrate, with a rational explanation, the exact number of votes that should be given to Romney and how many should be disqualified for Obama?
Suzie:
“Do you think Christians (or any other group) sit around and judge each other’s kids? They don’t.”
You can tell how many church functions and uber-religious family reunions she doesn’t go to.
J.M. White:
“I’m willing to play this out, though. I’d like to see if you can carry your theory far enough to tip the election in Romney’s favor. Please demonstrate, with a rational explanation, the exact number of votes that should be given to Romney and how many should be disqualified for Obama?”
Here’s your chance to shine, Suzie! Not many here have ever given you the fair chance. Take some time, do some research, and surprise us!
For whomever cares, one cannot apply statistical assumptions and methodology (which are are based on and designed for application to independent random distribution) to non-random populations of data.
Statistical tests do not provide reliable support for the inferences when applied to non-random samples.
OTOH, check out “If hindsight bias and confirmation bias had a baby, it would be the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy”: — http://tinyurl.com/2v3npo2
Read the whole article. Sound like someone we know?
Wonder why suzie keeps talking about counties?
John Wilburn,
“The God Delusion” is a great book and is a great place to start with Dawkins’ books. I have an extra hardback of that book if you are interested.
Another great book to read if you are looking for a change of pace would be “god is not Great, How Religion Poisons Everything” by Christopher Hitchens.
Other Atheistic authors to look at would be, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. All great authors that stand up for non-theists.
You are more than welcome to any of the books I have if you are interested.
Ms. Saunders,
Breaking the Spell, deals with many cultural issues as far as religion goes. He does speak about brainwashing at times in the book, but it is more about how and why societies believe and adopt religions, how they are bad for said societies, and how we can… Break the spell.
I know that many folks don’t have time or the interest to read. So, you could always go to youtube and watch the debates with the authors I have mentioned, and watch lectures that they have given to religious and philosophical crowds.
Suzie,
The reason why we call ourselves, Atheists, among many other labels including, Anti-theist, non-theist, and Secular Humanist, is because of people like yourself. You use your religion as an excuse to say and do hateful things. Such as being against the LGBT community, and not only being anti gay, you go as far as supporting people who who propel this type of bigotry.
We call ourselves Atheists because there is an opposite to our belief. Why do you refer to yourself as a Catholic? Why not just, Christian?
We do sit around and talk about religion and Atheism, but we are about more than that. We are about community, we are trying to break the spell by leading by example. We show our surrounding communities that you do have a choice in a belief system. We believe our belief system is a moral and just choice given today’s religious zealots… like Romney, Aiken, and Santorum. It is people such as them and yourself that we feel the need to make that separation.
As long as religion feels the need to stick its nose in our govenrment, and we have the level of ignorance that the religious leaders have displayed in this past election.
Not AVERAGE precincts but predominantly minority and Democratic precincts.
Ergo the 96% expected rate for 0bama.
I accept your methodology, Suzie, though I do not agree with it. Personally, I’d apply the 96% like a half-life, given the precincts’ abhorrence to the other candidate. Even then, the odds of him sweeping the votes are around the same as flipping a coin and having it land on edge.
I’m willing to play this out, though. I’d like to see if you can carry your theory far enough to tip the election in Romney’s favor. Please demonstrate, with a rational explanation, the exact number of votes that should be given to Romney and how many should be disqualified for Obama?
Thanks for being reasonable, JM White and agreeing in principle. Although you many not be able to find enough Romney votes in these particular precincts, remember these are the 59 that went 100% for 0bama. What about the hundreds of others that went 99%, 98% 97%” And these exist in many many midsized cities with a black population. Like the Melrose precinct’s 99%. Then you have to ask about the veracity of the hispanic precincts. How widespread IS the cheating. I say it’s ubiquitous. Why would the cheaters stop at just a few?
“Do you think Christians (or any other group) sit around and judge each other’s kids? They don’t.”
In what world do Christian’s and any other groups NOT sit around and judge others children. There are entire religious facilities and a micro industry dedicated to “fixing” your troubled non-believing child.
#103 Gee, I wonder why suzie doesn’t thank Dave Hicks for his engaging post? Maybe because it pretty much destroys suzie’s little diatribe?
Suzie: I haven’t agree to/with anything, in principle or otherwise. I accepted your methodology for the sake of debate; that is all. I don’t want to play games with you. I’m asking you specifically how Romney was cheated out of the election.
If you’re claiming that the alleged cheating occurred in all fifty states, then please forward your theory, state by state. (mind you the difference between “theory” and “hypothesis”, please) If you only want to argue enough swing states to win Romney the election, that’s fine, too. Either way, show me the numbers. Show me the statistical anomalies. Show me evidence that the anomalies are caused solely by fraud. Show me the proof of where Romney was robbed of votes. Pretend I’m from freaking Missouri if you need to and just show me, please.
{in my best Brooklyn accent}
Yo gdad! I’m workin’ here!
Suzie: I haven’t agree to/with anything, in principle or otherwise. I accepted your methodology for the sake of debate; that is all. I don’t want to play games with you. I’m asking you specifically how Romney was cheated out of the election.
JMWhite,
You’re the one who said the odds of the Philadelphia precincts actually happening would be like a flipped coin landing on its edge. You were right. Why back off?
Dave Hicks is correct in that an arbitrary result for 0bama votes after 96% is inherently too generous for 0bama. In fact, the votes are far more likely to be for Romney.
But even being generous, the chances are essentially zero.
Seriously? You think it will make more sense if you humor it? In my best Brooklyn by way of Bedford County, “Good luck with that”.
The election is way past over, Suzie. Give it up and move on.
#109 Well, at least suzie finally agreed that Dave H was correct in setting her straight and calling her on her BS.
The election is way past over, Suzie. Give it up and move on.
Sure. Just sweep the fraud under the rug. Did you people do that after 2000 after you made up voter fraud charges?
Seriously? You think it will make more sense if you humor it? In my best Brooklyn by way of Bedford County, “Good luck with that”.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 21, 2012 @ 9:16 pm
Nah, Sandi. She’s been complaining about lack of civility, while putting up her post-election front of “genuine concern” for the nation. I was civil and gave her more than a fair chance to illustrate what she’s been blathering incessantly about since Nov. 7. She wants to play games instead. I was merely doling out the rope, so to speak. I just wanted to see how long it would for Suzie to expose herself as just a less nasty version of the same old troll.
I knew that she didn’t possess the intellect to lay out a plausible case for the election turning in Romney’s favor. Almost everyone else in her party has moved on from this “issue”. Casting doubts upon 3,000 or even 30,000 votes is easily achievable in any election, but attempting to do it with 3,000,000 is a futile act. Human beings are neither random nor evenly dispersed, therefore you cannot extrapolate data from one segment of a population and apply it everywhere.
It was a simple yet daunting task, I know. The offer to listen and debate it is still open, of course. I’m being more than generous by accepting a dubious and plainly immaterial methodology as the fundamental piece for her theory, with even further concessions as to which states are in play. I’m genuinely interested to see if she has the capability to work out the math and make it logically applicable.
Whether she’s got her good-girl undies on for the holidays or if she’s on better behavior for Dan’s upcoming meeting about the blog, this is the Suzie we have now. Personally, I think she’s a lot more boring, even if her opinions and obsessions have gotten a bit more whacked. It’s like she’s dosed on Xanax or something. Still irrational and illogical… just more subdued.
Yes, I have noticed the “more subdued”, but I think she is just letting Frank, Leon pammala and lower case matt carry the water for a while.
I think J.M. White is angry he agreed with me about the Democrats cheating in Philadelphia, because he’s trying desperately to back off of that.
But I already answered his question. If they stole votes in Philly as he agreed, and we proved they stole it in Chicago, Cleveland, Miami, and Roanoke, why wouldn’t they steal it in every Democrat precinct in America? Only a fool would think Philadelphia was the only place
if she’s on better behavior for Dan’s upcoming meeting about the blog,
This one gives me a chuckle every time I read it. Art Hill said the same thing. Does anybody really think the RT needs a reason to ban anyone?
#116 Yep, suzie’s giving Obama credit for some amazing powers. Before the election she was saying he’s an idiot and completely incapable of accomplishing anything. Now she says he’s capable of manipulating the election every single precinct in the country and then taking it over and making it wholly commie.
Basically, suzie has gone bonkers after being totally humiliated over her election predictions. It’s a sad, sad thing to watch.