An atheist takes the Post of the Day
MarcusObal | Wikimedia Commons
Note from Dan: This comment came deep in the Thursday column thread from VVarlock, a longtime regular of the this blog and ardent atheist who lists in Missouri.
“Sane and reasonable people –
Much of my firebombing is not directed at you. If you are a christian who is not trying to force your beliefs upon the rest of us, then it really doesn’t bother me that you believe in a system I do not.
If your christianity does not try to restrict the rights of others, or spread hate and violence, then it can only be harming yourself and I will treat you like an adult and let you do to yourself as you would.
As Sandi points out, I do not believe in hell and I know many of you do not believe in the hell that is eternal fire and torment. I know many of you also do not think that there is only one way. I know many of you support dialogue between the faiths (and even non-believers).
If the god I describe is not your god, then I am not addressing you with my over the top flaming.
If we can show the fringe for what it is, a ridiculous backwards and evil remnant of christianity before morality, then we can push them back into the darkness, can keep them from forcing out public leaders to do evil in their name.
The more of you who push back against the evil in your midst, the better our society. Stop providing cover for the loonies and cast them out. Republican, gun-toting, screw the poor, fag-hating yee-haw Jesus is a myth they made. Show them that Jesus is not like they are, but more like we are.
I treat their ridiculous beliefs with ridicule. If your god does not use eternal torment, then that marks off that strike against him in my book. If your god really is more like Jesus than the OT Abrahamic horror, that marks off several strikes against him in my book. If your god doesn’t hate science or gays or the sick, there go another handful.
Heck, before you know it, nothing I have said (other than lack of evidence to cause me to believe) applies to your christianity and I have no beef with you, but instead would dialogue with you about moving forward, sustaining progress for this great nation, re-embracing education and science and morality to make this again THE nation to emulate in the world.
Stand up for what you believe, stop letting nutters steal it.
May this new year bring you happiness.
January 12, 2013 - 11:00 AM
“Heck, before you know it, nothing I have said (other than lack of evidence to cause me to believe) applies to your christianity and I have no beef with you, but instead would dialogue with you about moving forward, sustaining progress for this great nation, re-embracing education and science and morality to make this again THE nation to emulate in the world.”
VVarlock, you speak wisely here. Education, science, and morality, unencumbered by religious dogma, is the greatest strength of all mankind.
Having trouble with spelling and grammar today. My post should read:
VVarlock, you speak wisely here. Education, science, and morality, unencumbered by religious dogma, are the greatest strengths of all mankind.
+1 Jason Perdue!
If you do not believe in God there is no proof which would convince you that he does indeed exist. If you do believe no proof is necessary.
People such as yourself have succeeded in removing God from schools and we have seen the results of that. You have removed children from church
and now we’ve seen the results of that. Society fifty years ago had none of these problems, indeed people didn’t even lock their doors. Churches
were full, schools were silent and students were respectful to their teachers and elders. Now we live in a time where walking down the sidewalk in many areas could get you killed. Going to school is becoming more dangerous by the day, the Constitution is treated like a rag, and we
have Muslims dictating how many cities in America are to treat those that believe in their religion. The sad fact is America is far to gone at this point to recover. Soon I’m afraid you will reap what you’ve planted.
You cannot expect a harvest of flowers when you plant nothing but weeds.
Society fifty years ago had none of these problems, indeed people didn’t even lock their doors.
Comment by Doug Thompson — January 12, 2013 @ 6:00 pm
Mr. Thompson: atrocities have been committed since the dawn of time and in a lot of cases, locking their doors would’ve helped. Two minutes, sir, is all it would’ve taken you, and you would find dozens of massacres and heinous crimes committed pre-1963. To act like this just developed overnight and as a result of godlessness is ludicrous and disingenuous.
And if you really want to see how sick, twisted and depraved the world was pre-1963, there’s a great history book on the subject. It’s called the Old Testament.
Yes Doug, because nothing bad happened before “people such as yourself” started kicking God out of places. Nothing like slavery. The holocaust. WWs 1&2. Jim Crow. The Depression. It was all such a cakewalk before we kicked God out of the schools.
What blithering nonsense.
Doug –
I would imagine the majority of my comments DO apply to you then. YOU are what is wrong with this country. Your kind tried to keep slavery around using bible verses (causing the Baptist, Southern Baptist split). Your kind supported Jim Crow, separate but equal, and anti-miscegenation laws. Your kind is again on the wrong side of history, spouting bigotry in the name of Gawd.
I not only do not believe in your god, but if he is like the conservative literalist creo-tards believe he is, then I think he is an immoral monster unworthy of worship, even if he was real.
I have repeatedly asked for evidence. First, as a christian in doubt, then later as a recovering christian. Both in prayer (when I believed) and in conversation with believers.
If there were evidence of your god, evidence sufficient to overcome reasonable skepticism, then I would believe.
The problem is that no one has such evidence and every theist who has tried to speak to me about why they believes always, at some time (provided they don’t just snipe and run but actually continue the conversation), turns to ‘faith’ and ‘personal experience’ – thus conceding the argument.
If no proof is necessary for your belief, you are a gullible, credulous fool who either must also believe in tons of other BS or just exempts their religion from scrutiny for no good reason.
How would you believe without evidence in christian mythology but also discard any other belief system? Special Pleading. Cognitive Dissonance.
Noone removed god from schools. That is idiotic right wing garbage. My children still see people praying. The Fellowship of Christian Athletes met in my school. Campus Crusade is active on every college campus I have attended. Christian after-school groups meet in many schools (including the elementary and high schools 2 of my daughters attend).
The only thing which happened is that the schools were forced to stop official endorsement of any religion. The principal is not allowed to lead a morning prayer – which you scream about now; but I bet your screams would have a very different tone if the principal were trying to lead his school in the morning Islamic prayer to your little ones.
Removing children from church – while laudable and beneficial – is not something I can take credit for. Their parents not taking them (as I was taken as a youth) is not something I control. Personally, I think a good exposure to mythology is a good inoculation against silly beliefs and have taken my children or allowed them to go with friends/family in order to ensure exposure.
50 years ago we had almost all the same issues. Sure- the Negro was good enough to sit quietly in the back of the bus and didn’t think he should be treated like a human, and the fag wouldn’t dare raise his voice loud enough for us to tell he had a lisp, and a woman knew that rape could not occur inside the framework of a marriage, but most of remaining issues were identical (including the crime rate).
I have seen no evidence to support the claim that muslims dictate anything. Bring your evidence.
I just refuted a similar claim on FB. Some Falwellian Reich member posted a claim that Muslims were imposing Sharia law in the US. I asked him for evidence. He produced some tool’s website which listed a bunch of cases), but instead of laughing I diligently went there, picked the MO case (since I am from MO and don’t have the time or inclination to look at all 20 cases), and read it on WestLaw. The case said nothing about Sharia, instead it was a case about jurisdiction of a MO court when the child involved was in a foreign country and resident thereof. Nothing about Sharia law, despite the website (probably linked to by some Freeper) and its claims. The claim must have been based entirely upon the scary Muslim name since the facts sure didn’t support said claim.
Muslims, like everyone else, can choose to arbitrate their civil disputes outside the court system. Both people have to consent to this and it can not be an issue involving a child (best interest of the child standard prevents private arbitration of custody), but this is typical. If 2 people choose to settle a dispute through a sharia arbiter, they can. Just like if 2 christians want a christian counselor or christian arbiter they can.
BTW – you have all agreed to arbitration (instead of court) several hundred times in the past few years. Almost every contract, receipt, credit agreement and legal document has a binding arbitration clause.
Twisting the Knife-
Oh, and Marriage Equality – here to stay. Hope that makes your black twisted bible-believing hearts bleed a little every night when you realize that gays are going to get “MARRIED”… Oooh – and churches are going to line up to host these marriages, so many of these marriages will happen in a christian church.
Marriage Equality – June 2013.
If someone does not believe in God there is plenty the Christian, Muslim, Jewish and every other religious community COULD do to prove that not only does God exist, but that his followers are made different, better, more, and special for that belief. Unfortunately, most of the adherents to all of them chose not to show that, some not in any discernible way at all other than their often profane and absurd assertions of their belief and why you are worse than pus for not agreeing. THAT is the problem, not Atheists, Agnostics or those lost, unsure or questioning.
Faith does not need proof. But getting to have faith is built on something very tangible, provable and real, the actions, the life and the blessings of joy that those who believe in God are supposed to show. So little that has been said during this discussion has been anything that meets that criteria. Much that has been said in these discussions has been the opposite and it does convince Atheists and others that they are right about us all.
It is childishly simplistic (but convenient) to claim anyone has “succeeded in removing God from schools”. No one is capable of “removing God” from anywhere unless you believe he is not there. And without parental obedience, it is not possible that anyone has “removed children from church”.
“Society fifty years ago” had a whole slew of problems and yes we were all too polite to discuss them openly but they were there.
Blaming the choice of free will rejection of religious dogma from people who seldom show any reason not to is a big cop out for people without the honesty and integrity to argue our problems with either. You can want to blame others and pretend you have done no sowing of your own. But you are wrong.
Great. Another Hater of Islam speaks his mind. Islam believes in eternal judgement for the infidels.
Warlock isn’t an atheist. He has created a god in his own image and wants everyone to agree with his version of God (i.e. God wouldn’t…..)
I also love it with an Anti-Theist says “We haven’t removed God from school” and then says “There is no place for God in public school”.
A side. Pick one.
“fag-hating yee-haw ”
You said fag. I guess there is a place on Dan Casey’s blog for the word “fag”. Especially fag-hating yee-haw Muslims.
Oh and I told you civility stuff was garbage. I knew Dan didn’t believe in it. He just meant that to silence everyone who disagreed with his opinion.
Going to school is becoming more dangerous by the day, the Constitution is treated like a rag, and we
have Muslims dictating how many cities in America are to treat those that believe in their religion. -Doug Thompson
So… what you are saying is that because of Secular society we have all of a sudden started going down hill?
The only people treating OUR constitution like a rag is the conservatives and religious fundamentalists who think they know what a god says when apparently he hasn’t said a word in 2,000 years. You use a book that you say is God’s Word one minute, and then when you point out how insane it is with its stories of rape, incest, murders, and then you want to say it was written by man. Which is it? Either it is the word of your deity, or its not. Either your god is real or he is not. No in-between.
Then you have the audacity to talk about Muslims??? This whole world has had Christianity shoved down its throat around 1500 years now. So now the tables are turning, and Muslims are going to be shoving their prayer down your throat… GOOD! How does it feel you hypocrite? So it seems that YOU and YOUR fellow Christians will reap what YOU have planted. Meanwhile us Secularists will have to clean up your disastrous mess. Why? Because you planted the seed of cramming your superstition down other’s throats. Sounds like you have given up on MY country… plane, train, boat, or automobile! Chuck-a-deuce!
Seems to me you have been planting barrels of gasoline…
One thing for sure is that if the atheist are right we Christians are as well off as they are. However if we Christians are right and I am sure we are, the atheist will not be as well off as we are.
And why should we care what a fag-loving liberal atheist feels about God? He’s not even supposed to believe in God. Now he has an opinion about a God that he doesn’t even believe exists? That illogical. If God doesn’t exist, how can you assign attributes to him?
Sandi –
When I was working the jail, I had many an inmate, inmate’s family member or member of the public comment on what a good christian I was. The Gideon leader who dropped off the bible for the inmates always hugged me and told me what good work I was doing.
See, as a professional, my religion did not matter. I was the law,the embodiment of the constitution. My duty was fairness. Virtually no one (not counting close co-workers) had any idea of my religion. Many more knew of my extra-work charitable activities and my strenuous insistence on fair-play. More than one was disciplined for favoritism or bigotry.
Charity, decency, compassion – these things are not the purview of religion, they are the cornerstones of a morality more decent than that available in the literal reading of the bible.
It’s curious that atheists tend to be Republican haters. With the exception of the homosexual agenda, an atheist would logically be Republican or Libertarian (assuming an atheist cares about the rights of the helpless unborn). Democrat is the last thing an atheist should be especailly in terms of economic policy. Reference Ayn Rand, Charles Darwin, et al. I assume you’re an atheist based on your logic but your political logic is even more flawed. I suspect it’s because of your blind bias.
I removed children from church? I removed God from schools? I don’t remember doing that. I am an ardent foe of organized, teacher-led prayer in school. Christians can pray with their children before and after school. Prayer in school seems less about letting your kid pray (they can pray anyway) and more about forcing my child to pray.
There is prayer in school. In EVERY school. In every PUBLIC school. Nobody wants to stamp it out. Nobody is trying to stamp it out. Some parts of the Christian right whine this is the case. That is 100 percent false.
I think prayer in school is good, for the most part. If people want to pray, they should be able to. Anywhere, anytime.
What has been banned (in public schools only) is government agent-led prayer. With all of the crap (most of it false) that you hear from RWers about the evil government, and especially with the federal government being led by an alleged (according to some RWer Christians) Muslim, you might think that they, too, would look askance at government agent-led prayer in the schools.
But no. They WANT government agent-led prayer in the schools. They’re DEMANDING government agent-led prayer in the schools.
This is weird. It makes no sense. Their kids already can pray in schools. Why are they demanding the prayers be led by government agents?
They oughta be glad they’re not. I don’t understand those people.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — January 12, 2013 @ 7:44 pm
Sandi, your faith is inspirational. You stand for your beliefs without belittling those with different beliefs. Even as you call on others to listen with an open mind -
“Blaming the choice of free will rejection of religious dogma from people who seldom show any reason not to is a big cop out for people without the honesty and integrity to argue our problems with either. You can want to blame others and pretend you have done no sowing of your own. But you are wrong.”
- theists threatened by a rational doubt in God’s existence prove your point. Keep the faith, Sandi. You well know there is room at the table for more than one view.
It sounds like Warlock approves only of religions that are non-critical of atheist values.
Probably the one most visible manifestation of atheism is its inherent selfishness. That stands to reason. If your focus isn’t outward on others, it has to be inward on yourself. Furthermore I don’t know of any atheist that practices self-denial of the flesh in any form.
Nobody is trying to stamp it out.
Really? So how about we have a rousing “Our Father” before the next PH basketball game?
Henry @ 8:01; you make it all that much sweeter to be an Atheist, and avid supporter of the GLBT community. Good luck with that hatred little man.
Re: Dan Casey @ 10:13 pm
Don’t worry, Dan.
As long a teachers call on students to answer questions, there will be prayers in school.
Ditto test.
Thanks Jason! I am tired of people making something beautiful look bad.
VVArlock, I know well what you are saying, when you comment: “Charity, decency, compassion – these things are not the purview of religion, they are the cornerstones of a morality more decent than that available in the literal reading of the bible.” But, it is MY experience that if you read the Bible and study the words of Jesus with the right frame of mind, the Bible tells us the origin of the morality that is more than available in the overall message of the Bible. I cannot apologize enough for the Christians that cannot understand that message and their role as servants of God, but I will not have their behavior, demeanor or dishonest representation blamed on the Bible. Even with its man-made flaws, the message is clear and the true love of God is there to find for anyone not there looking for a cudgel to beat society with or words to hurt anyone with another perspective. I think we see the choice many made. The easy one.
Just as the fundamentalists in Islam have given that religion a bad name and misrepresented the faith, so have far too many people who claim to be christian but act like anything but. You would think they not only do not read and correctly interpret the message of Jesus, the sermons, or the hymns, you would think they glory in it.
I can only imagine the people their comments have led to Jesus in the last few days here.
Probably the most regular quality of Suzie’s posts is the inherent selfishness they express.
You cannot expect a harvest of flowers when you plant nothing but weeds.
One man’s weeds are another man’s flowers…just sayin’.
“Really? So how about we have a rousing “Our Father” before the next PH basketball game?”
Yeah, that would be some proof all right.
Henry just went more than a little nuts.
Susie, I don’t know of a human that practices self denial of the flesh… why are you so infatuated with how us moral atheists act?
#11 Don-
Pascal’s Wager. PRATT.
#14 JB
Until 2002-ish I was nominally a Republican. I still have strong libertarian and third party tendencies, but I was forced out of the Republican Party. The Fundagelicals and Falwellian Reich had too much influence, the god bothering was to incessant, the anti-science/education/decency was too strong.
All that said, I was always pretty independent and never have voted a straight ticket in my life.
I remain independent, but now the R’s almost never get my vote (only the ones I know personally to be decent human beings). I have never been a single issue type of person so you can stuff your abortion bs.
I loathe Rand. Selfishness is not a virtue. Lumping her and Darwin makes little sense.
You don’t really know anything about my politics (other than what I posted here). You presume too much.
#18 – I know this is a waste but – Suzie
There is no such thing as ‘atheist values’. Atheism is not a religion with dogma. Atheism is a single responsive position which refers to a single issue. In my local atheist community we disagree on virtually everything and in the online community, I know atheists who disagree with me on every single one of my positions.
I approve ONLY of those who have morals similar to mine. Yes. If your morals differ from mine, then we have 2 possible paths. We discuss the positions (in the event I am unfamiliar with your reasoning) or we do not (in the event your reasons are PRATT).
I have spent 20+ years reaching out to those with other positions on these issues. I have discussed, argued, debated and studied christian morality, christianity, and the history of the christian church.
We can discuss, but really there is little purpose. I know the bible and Christianity better than 95% of the lay christians I have ever encountered. I doubt strongly that any of your ilk could say anything that has not already been said to me.
That aside, I love the moral discussion, since secular morality is always superior to religious morality.
Atheism has no inherent selfishness and much of my time is spent giving to my fellow man (not money this year, school makes me poor). I have no intent to brag on my endeavors, mentioning them to someone like you would cheapen my efforts.
But to imply that my focus is on self and yours is outward is possibly the most laughable thing you have said this week (and that takes some doing).
What/who you don’t know – well that is too large an ocean to swim. Right off the top of my head I can think of 2-3 non-theistic religions who practice extensive self-denial.
BUT- why would an atheist practice self-denial and why is self-denial itself a virtue? What would it have to do with not believing in a god?
Sandi –
I try to take the useful where I can find it. Combine that with my childhood indoctrination into Christianity and I find that I give undue preference to that morality that your sort of christian would attribute to Jesus.
While I do not believe in the god, nor the divinity of Jesus (and his historicity is dubious) I did absorb the ‘christian’ morality of my country. I have since pared it down to the bits that are actually moral, but undue deference still remains.
My firebombing is aimed at marking out the Falwellian Reich’s idiocy but occasionally it overturns some remnant of christianity in my mind that must be examined for its moral correctness.
The evil of christians, their bigotry and hate is quite a turn-off, but I left for other reasons. I do know some atheists who left christianity because of the PoE, morality, or other issues, but the diversity of atheists is almost without match, almost as many reasons as there are faces.
#12 Henry
I do not believe I assigned any attributes to ‘god’. I am usually pretty careful with my language, but if you have a couple of examples I would love to see them.
Hey don….maybe the Vikings were right. Then we’re all screwed.
“Furthermore I don’t know of any atheist that practices self-denial of the flesh in any form.”
I have a few thoughts on what “self denial of the flesh” might mean.
Hmmm.
I think the folks who created property insurance policies are atheists, …as the “acts of God” clause always refers to non-man-caused calamities and such…
VVArlock,
Please re-read your second paragraph…i’ll paraphrase:
“If your christianity does not try to restrict the rights of others, or spread hate and violence, …then it can only be harming yourself…”
hmmm, …seems bizarre that you bomb my religion (believing “can only harm yourself”),even if my religion “doesn’t restrict you, hate you, and do violence to you”. In my opinion, that’s a pretty intolerant position to adopt, if all you really want is to be respected as non-believers. There’s no understanding…no forgiveness…in your thinking.
I think we all should “do unto others as we would have them do unto us”. Now, I realize that THAT sentence might not be the exact wording of everyone’s Bible, but I suspect we all know what it means.
Probably the most regular quality of Suzie’s posts is the inherent selfishness they express.
Comment by Dan Casey — January 13, 2013 @ 12:05 am
Right to the heart of the matter, Dan. Well said!
Sandi
” But, it is MY experience that if you read the Bible and study the words of Jesus with the right frame of mind, the Bible tells us the origin of the morality that is more than available in the overall message of the Bible”
The problem with that is that outcome only exists as because of your innate experience. Who is to say that someone else, reading it in the right frame of mind, might conclude that women are second class citizens, genocides and slavery are sanctioned by God, or it’s necessary to remove objectionable pieces of flesh from male genitalia. Reading it in the right frame of mine is a totally subjective experience. Any proponent of the aforementioned ridiculous biblical admonitions believes they come such positions by reading the bible in the correct frame of mind. The whole argument between you and less judgemental Christians is one of differences in interpretation.
Doesn’t it make more sense that morality is the sum total of what a large number of people come to see as fair, just and equitable? Does it really take a supernatural message or short list of rules to live by to realize that cheating someone is wrong? Do you think that it really required a god to convince a culture that “Thou shalt no kill” was a good rule to follow?
I don’t. I think most of the real issues of morality have some innate quality through emotions of empathy and sympathy and reasoning. Religion has long staked a claim that God is responsible for these useful societal tools, and that just ain’t so.
Frank
I believe that christianity is wrong. I believe that there is no good reason to believe that there is a god. I believe that the BS believers go through is a waste of time and effort. I believe that there are better moralities which embrace the value of humans and do not denigrate them.
If you are not out pushing these things on others, I am not trying to beat you in the face though. I don’t care if you think you are worthless, as long as you are not trying to teach my children that they are worthless. I don’t care if you waste your money, giving to an organization which is the most wasteful form of charity. I don’t care if you get up on Sunday morning and waste a couple hours singing to a being which does not exist.
I believe these are harms to your self. BUT if you are not trying to hurt others, to stifle science, to abuse your fellow man, to insinuate your beliefs into our shared government, laws or schools…etc.- what business is it of mine what you do?
I don’t think the position –‘ if you are causing no harm to others do as you will’ – is really that intolerant.
I do not want only to be respected as a non-believer. I want it not to be the second question anyone asks. I want it to be a non-issue in my personal life and in politics. I would prefer if every christian, overnight, turned into the moderate reasonable version and we could move forward considering the best outcome for our nation as a whole and our laws.
I know this isn’t reasonable.
So, I will settle for the continuation of the slow decline christianity has seen and the surge in the ‘nones’ as more people realize it is ok to identify as something other than ‘christian’. I will settle for the growing acceptance that non-believers are decent moral human beings and valuable members of our society.
This will take time. It will take a generation of out spoken atheists of all types continuing to make our presence known. The firebombing, in-your-face kind will point out the evil of religion and the horror that is the bible. The accommodationist kind will try to build bridges and promote dialogue with the faithful.
How do you think that there is no ‘understanding’ in my thinking? Why would there be forgiveness in my thinking?
Do unto others is a sentiment much older than christianity and one which many non-religious persons agree with. How is leaving you alone if you are not causing harm to others not ’do unto others’?
I think I’d like to here a bit on the VVarlock’s evotion from believer to nonbeliever. How did that transpire?
“I don’t know of any atheist that practices self-denial of the flesh in any form”
I know of many priests and even some popes who haven’t practiced self-denial of the flesh.
Dan-
There really isn’t too much to tell. I grew up Midwest small town farm kid. There were good times and bad, financially, emotionally, physically. I stayed quite a bit with both grandmas (Summers, evenings while the folks were at work) and learned a lot from that generation.
My parents loved me, worked hard, instilled a sense or right and wrong on me, … My upbringing was very similar to those around me.
Religiously, I did not go to church a lot as a young child, but by the time I was 7 or so I was going every Sunday (G’ma taught a Sunday School class). By the time I was 10-11 I was staying for church and active in the youth program and helping with it. Religion had always been of interest to me, all religions, especially my own christianity and the mythologies of Greece and Rome. By 15-16 I was a Junior Deacon, attended adult Sunday School class and helped some with the youth studies.
At some point in High School I decided (probably through the influence of a book – I was an avid reader) that there was no Big Foot (or perhaps it was the Yeti or Werewolves). I had loved old monsters and mysterious beasts and there was quite a bit of adjustment for me there to push out the likelihood of werewolves and Big Foot and Vampires (my favorite). Casting out those things as unsupported by evidence changed my perspective enough that I decided to examine my beliefs.
I had decided that I cared what was true, I decided I cared about the evidence, the reason something should be believed.
Christianity was of course not subject to examination. I took everything else I believed and examined it, beat it up, criticized it.
I modified and discarded many things.
It was not until later that I applied the same razor to my religion. While searching for answers about our world- I read the bible (not as I had all my life – in assigned sections or piecemeal, but cover to cover). By the time I finished it, I had decided it was not something I could support. I decided that there was no good reason to exclude it from the razor of criticism that all my other beliefs had been forced to endure. My religion did not survive the scrutiny and by the time I was 23-25 I called myself an ‘agnostic’. I continued my study of religion and within a year or so I realized that I was an atheist and that agnostic was not a middle ground for non-combatants.
I have told most of those pieces previously here in some way or another.
Hey VVarlock,
you’ve sure gone through the litany of bad things about religion. i am not a church-goer, but i have very strong faith. i find comfort in my faith, even if it doesn’t fly in formation with established religions. i am in frequent direct contact with jewish, methodist, baptist, and catholic faiths, and i have not felt pressured to change my ways to their ways.
yes, man, within the cover of religion, has done some horrible things…just like man has done within the cover of government…and i suspect as will man do under the cover of godlessness.
i don’t believe that men are inherently good. we seem to have to work at it. nor do i believe that men are inherently evil. we seem to have to work against that. i find earth’s and it’s life’s mysteries too incredible to comprehend the absence of God.
aren’t there good aspects to religion?
Frank, most religions as a guidepost are great. Religion as a foundation is where it gets dangerous. Most people can handle having a guidepost knocked over, but they seem to get downright irate and irrational if you rattle their foundation.
Mike Scott, given the preponderance of people who do indeed read the Bible and study their religion who do not have my experience and have chosen to use it as the cudgel I mentioned, I take your point.
Far too many, “conclude that women are second class citizens, genocides and slavery are sanctioned by God, or it’s necessary to remove objectionable pieces of flesh from male genitalia” among other ridiculous ideas. Too many people prove that “Reading it in the right frame of mine is a totally subjective experience”. However, I think that is not so much the “right frame of mind” as the most self serving frame of mind.
The Bible that endorses your bigotry, prejudice, arrogance and superiority is easy to read and follow. It is the path of least resistance for many, many Christians. That does not make it right. That Bible is the gospel of prosperity, the “saints” versus the sinners, the judge early and often weapon.
The only way to read the Bible and study/practice religion is from a place of selfless searching and service. It requires not so much an “open mind” as a willing mind. It also requires you to be able to differentiate the history, the hyperbole and the parable from reality, truth and admonition. Some people are not capable. Or can only do so for the verses they like, the premise they agree with and the message that affirms the place they are in. Convenient hunh?
These are the people that most often respond in a blog, or in public because they believe they have the answer and the answer suits them fine. They never examine that answer or how it differs from what Jesus actually said, did and advises. Humility is a big one in the Bible. Just about any book or chapter will advise humility. How often do you see that here?
The story of Jesus is the ultimate story of God made human, “just like us”. He walked among us, He healed us, He advised us, He tried to give us the path to peace, comfort, happiness and life on earth and after earth. No one, not me, not you, not anyone can walk a person’s path for them and if in the end one is wrong and one is right, that too is on them, or not.
It is and remains my contention that people living a life of humility, service, respect, morality and love ARE God’s people. I am sorry ANYONE believes this is about you or them “claiming God”. That is just not how it works IMO. The ultimate irony is that those who claim the Atheist is the one in for a rude awakening, might just be off by one.
Sure, many believe themselves right; that is not what makes anyone right. It never has been. Yes “differences in interpretation” but it is a HUGE difference.
I do not disagree that “morality is the sum total of what a large number of people come to see as fair, just and equitable”. I just disagree that HOW the vast majority of people get there is without a belief in something bigger, better, more powerful than we can comprehend, setting it all in motion. You are free to think that is not the case. It does not make it so.
A “supernatural message” is much more believable than an accident of atoms (or whatever anyone attributes the universe to) IMO, but I readily acknowledge I cannot “prove” that for the folks who demand proof.
Whether you use the Bible or organized religion or fairy tales and folklore, we all learn “rules to live by to realize that cheating someone is wrong”. The fact that there is a mechanism for that learning is very very supernatural to me. Evolution is not a fast track and I do not believe it can explain from instinct to reason completely.
I think it required God for the world to exist, but apparently even God cannot completely “convince” a culture that “Thou shalt not kill” is a good rule to follow. Which is why God actually has far fewer followers than they claim?
To some extent morality does have “some innate quality through emotions of empathy and sympathy and reasoning” but innate has to come from somewhere too. Religion and those who have a vested interest in being in power have indeed “long staked a claim that God is responsible for these useful societal tools” and whatever else helped them control people. The Bible is a creation of religion, put together by theologians, clerics and the hierarchy of the times. God is not about the Bible, the Qu’ran or the Torah. Those are what believers study, research and receive affirmation from, like attending church, serving missions etc., but they are just words (and meaningless words) without the faith and the intelligence to correctly interpret them. It is not easy serving God. It is in fact, hard, selfless, humbling, sacrificing, labor. It is not for the feint of heart, the headstrong, arrogant and self-important.
When you meet a real Christian, you WILL know them by their love.
Frank-
I am in frequent contact with theists. I am constantly threatened with hell and told that I have no basis for morality or that I can not possibly be a good person without a surveillance system in the sky threatening eternal doom for disobedience.
Perhaps you get a pass because you are a theist as well?
The christian religion is more than just a cover for the bad things men would do. Is if helpmeet. It is a willing partner. It almost begs to be used to subjugate and abuse others.
If the earth is so wonderful and complicated that it needs a god, then what is needed to explain god since it is allegedly much more wonderful and complicated? Special Pleading always enters at this point.
Good aspects of religion – no.
The charity that religion does is the most wasteful outside complete fraud. 80% or more of donations go to the building and salary of the functionaries – in a non-church charity this would amount to the worst sort of failure for a charity rating.
Good deeds – I see no reason why people need the church to be motivated to do good, I know I do not.
Good works – when people see a need, they fill it. If the churches were not feeding the homeless, either we would demand the state did it or a secular charity would be formed (as has been done already – see AHH).
The Catholic Church sponsored education when no one else could – perhaps this is because they felt bad about burning all the learning of the previous world and plunging us into the dark age? OR perhaps they sponsored to to control it as is their tendency.
I find in religion nothing useful that can not be accomplished (or accomplished better) without it.
“I have never been a single issue type of person so you can stuff your abortion bs.
I loathe Rand. Selfishness is not a virtue. Lumping her and Darwin makes little sense.”
What can be more selfish than to end a helpless life in exchange for sexual pleasure? But, since you see it as “bs” it’s clear how much you care for your fellow human beings. You are even more selfish than Rand.
Lumping in her in with Darwin makes perfect sense. They both believe there is no higher authority. They both adhere to the survival of the fittest.
Who are you to decide what is a virtue and what makes your opinion superior? If you find Rand detestable and Rand found you detestable, what makes you right and her wrong? Your point of view? Your personal moral code? Your “virtue?”
It’s a problem for atheists, a common moral code. It will always vary from person to person, culture to culture, era to era. Maybe you should write it up. Will it discriminate against thoughs who don’t share your beliefs?
Hey Sandi,
The further I got into reading your response to Mike Scott, the more I found myself agreeing with what you had to say. I think your post is one of the most heartfelt and intelligent things I have read on this blog.
Self denial of the flesh is no doubt responsible for some of the crabbiness around here.
“What can be more selfish than to end a helpless life in exchange for sexual pleasure?”
–Comment by JN
JB that’s not what it is and you should know it. Let’s reframe the question:
What can be more selfish that to end a helpless life that was created by a selfish and brutal rape?
See? It still doesn’t make any sense.
hey VVarlock,
I don’t inquire about other’s faith, or lack thereof. I can’t remember the last time I was asked about my faith…it’s likely been years. I don’t congregate with people of like mind on any regular or scheduled basis. I am not part of any anti-faith group.
I don’t wear my faith on my sleeve. I don’t compete with others on their record of faith. I try to convert no one.
My faith is strong. It is based on choice. I don’t fear God.
I don’t ever re-call doing something good that I thought would be viewed well by God, or because of God. I don’t keep score of my, or other’s, good deeds relative to God, or anything else.
You don’t understand, and that’s ok.
Sandi@44
Your theology is a particularly liberal compared to other self righteous members of this forum. It also expresses similar views that I once held when I was still seeking the solace of faith as a component of my own life. About that time I was teaching Sunday school for the Society of Friends. You would be a good fit with those very decent people. Politically and spiritually.
You don’t have justify your particular version of faith to me. I readily admit the majority of religious people are very nice, but not matter how eloquently you state your own case, my original point will quickly be born out as those less liberal in their own theology attempt to disabuse you of the errors in yours.
Thank you for considering and commenting on points I made. We will continue to have such discourse as time goes by.
Dan, Teacher led Prayer was in Sandy hook when they were in the closets with their students…. Its perfectly fine then.
But not any other time.
, you speak wisely here. Education, science, and morality, unencumbered by religious dogma, are the greatest strengths of all mankind.
“Morality without religious dogma.” As if they are inseperable.
And leftwingers are the ones who subvert true education and science with their ideology.
inseperable = inseparable
Probably the most regular quality of Suzie’s posts is the inherent selfishness they express.
Nice that we could shift from the subject of atheism to a personal attack on Suzie. And this by the host?
I am in frequent contact with theists. I am constantly threatened with hell and told that I have no basis for morality or that I can not possibly be a good person without a surveillance system in the sky threatening eternal doom for disobedience.
Perhaps you get a pass because you are a theist as well?
The christian religion is more than just a cover for the bad things men would do. Is if helpmeet. It is a willing partner. It almost begs to be used to subjugate and abuse others.
This is probably where you the most misled, Warlock. If one has fully evolved as a Christian, the “threat of hell” part is meaningless. They’ve moved to a higher plane — one of love; of a desire to do good from a positive standpoint. It’s like a super dedicated football player on a team who is waiting at the door for the weight room to open at 6 a.m., because he is so motivated to improve. The coach’s threat of punishment for those who do not work out is meaningless to him.
I honestly don’t know where the abuse or subjugation comes in that you refer to. If you have examined the life of Jesus as you have claimed, I don’t see how you can apply all the negative stuff to his words or actions. It sounds more like your beef is with people who have acted decidedly UN-Christian. So it’s a people problem; not a religion problem, sounds like to me.
And leftwingers are the ones who subvert true education and science with their ideology.
Comment by Suzie — January 14, 2013 @ 9:27 am
If “true” education means denying climate change and global warming in addition to substituting “creationism” for, you know, the actual fact of evolution… well, you got us “leftwingers” there.
Let’s just replace all fact based education for mumbo jumbo…and then wonder why the US is declining in the education field.
Mike Scott & VVArlock, I am more than well aware that most people of any religious persuasion make faith in God, the Bible, Qu’ran and Torah seem worthless and even destructive. It is a battle I fight almost daily. We see it here in many discussions. These so called Christians prove your points all day long; mine, not so much and seldom.
What I will not do, is let them dictate my faith or my view of God. They try hard, but they cannot do it. End the end that is what faith is. At the core, you and I have far more in common than many of my fellow Christians and I. That is why I do not reject, scorn or disrespect any Atheist or Agnostic.
I apologize for writing War and Peace but this is an especial passion for me. I despise what some self-serving people have turned religion into and how they manipulate God as being what they project. I will never respect them or their methods. I reject that they are serving God or living a life of faith. They simply are not.
If the world can’t tell you are a Christian, how is it you believe God will?
Mike Scott, Jesus was also “particularly liberal compared to other self righteous members of this forum” and his own time.
Your theology is a particularly liberal compared to other self righteous members of this forum. It also expresses similar views that I once held when I was still seeking the solace of faith as a component of my own life. About that time I was teaching Sunday school for the Society of Friends. You would be a good fit with those very decent people. Politically and spiritually.
Sandi’s account is correct, but there are two sides to that same coin She has only accounted for only one. Yes, Christian living is based on love, but love it not only active service towards others, but it also following God’s laws, and the two are one and the same. One cannot truly love God and serve others without following the laws of God.
Sometimes, for those who have not reached the developed state, the reminding of God’s laws are necessary. OFten they cannot see the connection between love of fellow man and some of God’s rules as presented in the bible. A perfect example is premarital sex. Many people see this as harmless. But it’s not. It is a selfish act because it dulls the desire for commitment. People thrive best in secure trusting committed relationships. Sex outside of marriage diminishes that security, lessens commitment, and leads to distrust and disappointment. And when people are hamstrung by those negative experiences, their ability to reach out, serve, and love is sidetracked. This is aside from any harm to done to children of broken relationships.
So my point is, love, and serve your fellow man, yes. But in order to love and serve them fully, you have to also obey the laws of God. And remember Jesus was not all peaches and cream. In addition to His message of love, he also forcefully reminded and in some cases rebuked people that they must follow the laws of God.
Now again, I know people will read this and say, “Well you certainly don’t act the part”. To that I will say, in here, that has been true. But I’m trying to improve, though I still have lapses. Frankly when Sandi wrote her piece, I felt the same. IMHO she certainly hasn’t acted in accordance with her words. But I realize it doesn’t make her words less true. I am sure she is trying to improve as well all are.
Suzie,
You’ve got ol’ dano pegged. Well, I guess he’s pegged himself.
It is my opinion if the man named Jesus appeared now, his “politics” or beliefs would be diametrically opposed to the so-called “Christian” right…
Many who call out to Jesus (their Savior) practice their own bigoted, racist, misogynist, and selfish form of Christianity. It is horrifying to me that it is the people who claim that we are a “Christian nation” and that government policies should reflect this, are the one’s who are usually most against the government carrying out the most basic premise of Christianity.
“Do not look to your own interests, but let each of you look to the interests of the others! Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus” (Phil 2:4-5).
The same people who preach about “Jesus’ love of everyone” – cloak their own rhetoric in bible passages, but what really motivates them is transparent – to deny certain Americans the rights enjoyed by other Americans based upon who they are and who they love.
James 2:1,3-4 “My friends, as believers in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, you must never treat people in different ways according to their outward appearance.”
Some of us, even without organized religion, take that bit about “doing unto the least of these my brethren” very seriously. There are some on Dan’s blog [and in the greater population] that no matter how much they pray in public, or profess to love Jesus, their words and actions speak of another more loudly.
“Even Satan can disguise himself to look like an angel of light.” (2Cor.11: 14)
If “Christians” were more like Sandi, instead of being dismissive of every other religion, belief, or point of view – there could be discussions and the exchange of ideas, instead, “diissenters” are judged and relegated to hell and satan by organized religions.
Paul: “Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.” (Romans 2:1)
Who is posting using Suzie’s name?
Comment by VVArlock — January 14, 2013 @ 11:32 am
“Who is posting using Suzie’s name?”
St. Maria Goretti
“Now again, I know people will read this and say, “Well you certainly don’t act the part”. ”
No, I read this and say “Who are you plagiarizing from this time?”
Very good stuff here from Suzie, Sandi, and Hillary.
Finding Balance….. this is where Christians fail.
We are told in Matthew 28:16-20 – to go out and make disciples of all nations. In other words, reach others with the Gospel. This is something I take very seriously, but how one goes about this is the key.
The other side is that shoving fear of eternal damnation may work for some, but disgusts others. This can be detrimental to the faith, and has been for years.
Witnessing sometimes becomes badgering. Jesus did point out sin to those he encountered, but he also showed love to them that today’s Christians sometimes fail to give.
Yes, I get angry when my faith gets attacked by those on here, and that usually leads me to give the wrong response.
Bottom line: Love never fails…something that all Christians must put before all else to show others the love that Christ had for us.
Many who call out to Jesus (their Savior) practice their own bigoted, racist, misogynist, and selfish form of Christianity. It is horrifying to me that it is the people who claim that we are a “Christian nation” and that government policies should reflect this, are the one’s who are usually most against the government carrying out the most basic premise of Christianity.
Hillary, that’s you saying stuff. I have no idea what you mean about Christians being bigoted, racist, selfish, etc. It’s easy to take shots at an invisible bogeyman as a way to bash those whose politics you don’t like
————–
The same people who preach about “Jesus’ love of everyone” – cloak their own rhetoric in bible passages, but what really motivates them is transparent – to deny certain Americans the rights enjoyed by other Americans based upon who they are and who they love.
I think it’s gays you’re talking about here. Again, I don’t know where you get Christians don’t love gays. I do know the Bible, as well as your professed religion views sexual acts outside of the context of a heterosexual marriage as wrong, and therefore inhibitive of man’s ability to fully love his fellow man.
“Morality without religious dogma.” As if they are inseperable.
And leftwingers are the ones who subvert true education and science with their ideology.
Comment by Suzie — January 14, 2013 @ 9:27 am
Suzie’s response – that religious dogma and morality are inseparable – is the crux of the conflict. I could not find a dictionary definition of “morality” that mentioned religion in any form, though my search was not extensive. But her point is clear. Morality can only exist within the confines of religion. Suzie is not alone in this judgment. I cannot agree. Morality, faith, spirituality are concepts that are not the exclusive purview of the religious.
Comment by Suzie — January 14, 2013 @ 5:00 pm
“Hillary, that’s you saying stuff. I have no idea what you mean about Christians being bigoted, racist, selfish, etc. It’s easy to take shots at an invisible bogeyman as a way to bash those whose politics you don’t like”
You are my example of a “bigoted, racist, selfish etc” “Christian”. Your new “persona” does not fool me…past statements that you have made against minorities, gays and a whole host of others is not easily wiped out by your recent metamorphosis…
Comment by Suzie — January 14, 2013 @ 9:27 am
“Morality without religious dogma.
”As if they are inseperable (sic).”
Please expound on the “morality” of priests who molest children.
Please expound on the “morality” of the Vatican moving those pedophile priests to other unsuspecting parishes.
Please expound on the “morality” of taking sums of money from the poor while the Pope sits on millions of dollars.
Bless me father for I have sinned…but much less than the Catholic church.
Well, I see this dog is still hunting so…. lemme take a crack at some of Sandi’s
epsitle..
” The fact that there is a mechanism for that learning is very very supernatural to me. Evolution is not a fast track and I do not believe it can explain from instinct to reason completely. ”
“some innate quality through emotions of empathy and sympathy and reasoning” but innate has to come from somewhere too.’
Both of these beliefs ignore a lot of what we know about behaviour and evolution. Let’s start with “Evolution is not a fast track”. That much is true. Evolution never did anything fast. But there’s plenty of evidence that evolutionary train leads right to brain we have without any magic wands or special brain dust. There’s nothing supernatural about learning. Look around the natural world and there’s an entire continuum of organisms that learn. Look into human history and there’s ample evidence that intelligence we possess was the end point of many small changes that lead to us. To people who think like me, the evidence is both clear and fascinating. But it isn’t magic.
It’s also not accident of atoms. That’s one common perception of evolutionary processes that commonly gets mentioned as reason why it can’t have happened that way. It’s the winning hand that gets passed along, and all those traits of humanity that you list as desirable part of theology also just happen to serve quite will in cooperative societies. Again, if you desire to look into the evidence, it exists. (EO Wilson and sociobiology…or the whole discipline of ethology.)
But why is this important important in a discussion of morality or theology? You so eloquently described your vision of Christianity and listed elements that you find uniquely supernatural. In particular, you mentioned such things as learning and the “positive” innate emotions as supernatural in origin.
Here’s the problem, not everyone gets the full measure of the positive attributes you describe. You admit as much in you comments about the reading of scripture. We are people who mostly do the right thing, but mixed in, we have a range of things that aren’t so wholesome or “Christian” if you will. I teach kids, and well know the differences in cognitive abilities with groups of children. Some of their brains don’t work so good. I know people who are psychopaths. Clearly their moral IQ leaves something to be desired.
If you assert that an ability to learn is a supernaturally obtained, and the positive qualities of humanity derive similarly, what about the stuff that ain’t so good? It’s a long list. Please don’t tell me that the devil is responsible for that side of the supernatural order, although I’m sure someone shortly will.
It’s way easier for me to look at the world in naturalistic terms and just accept that it is the way it is. Nothing supernatural to it, it’s the end point of eons of life and not celestial puppet strings are making it any better for me personally, or trying to make it suck for anyone else. To me that would be hellish and arbitrary. I also realize that in the biological and historical lottery, I got a really good hand. That makes me lucky, not blessed.
Next..que up the religious who can now tell me my life cannot be complete and that I have no purpose. I would say to them that I live in a time and place where I have more choices in purpose than ever before. It’s a great time to be alive.
But her point is clear. Morality can only exist within the confines of religion
I didn’t say that. You implied morality and religious dogma were mutually exclusive, and I disagree.
You are my example of a “bigoted, racist, selfish etc” “Christian”. Your new “persona” does not fool me…past statements that you have made against minorities, gays and a whole host of others is not easily wiped out by your recent metamorphosis…
I speak the truth. Sometimes the truth makes some gays or minorities look bad. That’s not racism or bigotry. Your broad brush attempts to forbid and intimidate anyone from disagreeing with leftwing positions, lest they be labeled with the negative terms you used. I don’t play that game.
Please expound on the “morality” of priests who molest children.
Please expound on the “morality” of the Vatican moving those pedophile priests to other unsuspecting parishes.
Please expound on the “morality” of taking sums of money from the poor while the Pope sits on millions of dollars.
Bless me father for I have sinned…but much less than the Catholic church.
Comment by Hillary — January 14, 2013 @ 6:54 pm
Please expound on the “morality” of priests who molest children.
Priests are human. Sometimes humans to very bad things. Not all priests act according to their vows. What do the actions of a few wayward men have to do with the truth or teachings of the Catholic faith?
As for the moving around of priests by bishops, I’ve said this before; forgiveness has always been the theme of Christianity. You confessed and tried to start anew. Awhile back the harm and recidivism of molesting wasn’t fully understood. If bishops moved priests around knowing of the future likelihood, then that’s wrong. But again, human beings sometimes do bad things. You claim you used to be a Catholic. Are the actions of a few men the reason you abandoned the teachings of your faith?
————–
Please expound on the “morality” of taking sums of money from the poor while the Pope sits on millions of dollars.
The head of millions of people can’t exactly carry out his duties while livingin a 1000 sf ranch and drive a VW Beetle. The compound, the popemobile, the security detail belongs to the office, not the man. Do you object to obama living in a fabulous mansion and flying around on vacation in AF One? All priests take a vow of poverty. Personally, the pope has few possessions.obama, on the other hand, actually IS worth millions personally, thanks to his political career. Do you ask why obama keeps his millions while so many of his countrymen are jobless?
“Morality without religious dogma.” As if they are inseperable. Comment by Suzie on January 14, 2013 @ 9:27 a.m.
Okay, Suzie. Enlighten me. What does this statement mean?
1. Comment by Suzie — January 15, 2013 @ 11:39 am
“I speak the truth. Sometimes the truth makes some gays or minorities look bad. That’s not racism or bigotry. Your broad brush attempts to forbid and intimidate anyone from disagreeing with leftwing positions, lest they be labeled with the negative terms you used. I don’t play that game.”
You speak the truth? And with that statement the redemptive process is halted…
2. Comment by Suzie — January 15, 2013 @ 12:05 pm
“Priests are human. Sometimes humans to very bad things. Not all priests act according to their vows. What do the actions of a few wayward men have to do with the truth or teachings of the Catholic faith?”
The Catholic Church knew what was happening. While excoriating “sinners”, the Church was complicit in hundreds of “sins” and crimes. The Catholic Church knew the predatory behavior of all those pedophile priests was criminal, and so the church HID them by moving them from parish to parish, creating more and more victims.
The Catholic Church was a willing partner with these priest by denying the pain and trauma of those victims – and making it necessary for victims to take the priests,bishops and by extension, the Catholic faith, into court for a small bit of justice.
These court settlements have been estimated to have cost the “faithful” more than $1 billion – probably from the collection money and insurance policies.
This is the “faith” represented by a Catholic Church’s spokesperson:
Father Benedict Groeschel, founder of Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, is well known as the host of a weekly show on Catholic television network EWTN – says he believes “youngsters” are often to blame for sexual abuse by priests and that priests who are first time offenders should not be jailed for their crime. http://digitaljournal.com/article/331892#ixzz2I4o4VA6x
Your comment regarding a “few wayward” priests – really? The number of pedophile priests found so far in the U.S. Catholic Church is “extrapolated” to be as high as 10,969 according to Bishop Accountabillity.org, and they are still counting. This does not include the numbers worldwide…
3.Comment by Suzie — January 15, 2013 @ 12:05 pm
“The compound, the popemobile, the security detail belongs to the office, not the man. Do you object to obama living in a fabulous mansion and flying around on vacation in AF One? ”
Your specious comparison of the Pope and the President is ridiculous. The point is not the Pope’s wealth as he is but one of a long line of popes, it is the Catholic Church’s hoarding of wealth. Have you ever been to St Peter’s Square? Have you ever walked into Sistine Chapel? Visited the Vatican Museum? Walked into St Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC? Until you have seen the vastness of the holding of the Catholic Church – in artwork, the antiquities, the galleries not to mention the the international real estate – please don’t try to justify the wealth of the Church. It is beyond sinful that they will continue to extort “offerings” from the poorest of their followers in the poorest of parishes.
As a thinking human being and judging the Catholic doctrine by looking at the facts, I have personally determined the whole of Catholicism is a fraud. You however can choose to believe in whatever supernatural being or church you desire…please notice that I neither have the power to “forbid” nor care to “intimidate anyone from disagreeing with leftwing positions”. I can say with all sincerity that I really do not care what you believe in or not…
You however can choose to believe in whatever supernatural being or church you desire
OK, so Hillary is now officially on board with the atheists. Why did she earlier claim to be Catholic then?
—–
I have personally determined the whole of Catholicism is a fraud.
Hillary, all your accusations (including the bigoted anti-Catholic group’s crazy unsubstantiated indictment of 10,000 priests), even if true, involve the transgressions of mortal men. They have nothing to do with Catholic teaching. So I still don’t understand how some men’s actions undid your religious faith. Was it that flimsy to start with?
Your specious comparison of the Pope and the President is ridiculous. The point is not the Pope’s wealth as he is but one of a long line of popes, it is the Catholic Church’s hoarding of wealth. Have you ever been to St Peter’s Square? Have you ever walked into Sistine Chapel? Visited the Vatican Museum? Walked into St Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC? Until you have seen the vastness of the holding of the Catholic Church – in artwork, the antiquities, the galleries not to mention the the international real estate – please don’t try to justify the wealth of the Church. It is beyond sinful that they will continue to extort “offerings” from the poorest of their followers in the poorest of parishes.
Faithful Catholics over the centuries have willingly and enthusiastically created and donated beautiful buildings and artwork as their gift to God. As far as I know, the citizens of the U.S. haven’t donated a dime to the government’s vast wealth. It’s all been confiscated in taxes. Have you seen all the fabulous buildings in Washington D.C. built by the government on all that expensive real estate? Isn’t it beyond sinful the government has all that wealth while extorting more and more taxes especially from the middle class as obama has done?