Post of the Day: Err on the side of belief in God, he says
Note from Dan: This comment from Other Aaron came in on the Thursday column thread. The author is a newcomer to this blog.
“What’s the point in being an atheist?
One of 2 things happen when you die, either nothing if God doesn’t exist or you burn in hell. Those are your only choices right?
If you believe in God when you die one of 2 things also happens, either nothing if it isn’t true or you go to heaven. Why choose to be something that has no single outcome that is possibly beneficial when you die? Only thing I can see is to try to prove to those who do believe that they are wrong and you are right.
Problem with that is you won’t find out until you’re dead and there is no one to tell at that point so really it accomplishes nothing. Just like Christians get labeled as soul winners Satan is just as good at winning souls.
Those who are atheists if they take pride in “being right” or thinking they are “not deceived” who’s to say they aren’t the ones being deceived? If they are wrong and God does exist then they are.
Something to think about. . .”
January 10, 2013 - 2:00 PM
One time an atheist asked me, what will you do if you die and find out there is no God? He actually asked this with a straight face.
Knowing God doesn’t mean much if God doesn’t know you.
Pascal’s Wager.
Although I disagree with the vandalism, I did find putting up the boards during the Christmas season disrespectful. Atheists are certainly entitled to their non belief. It all comes down to respect. I felt disrespected seeing the signs at the holidays and felt they were put there during this time for inflammatory purposes. Then they were oh so shocked someone would deface their advertisement.
The problem with Aaron’s post is that people don’t choose to be atheists as in choosing to be Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist or Roman Catholics. There is no theology to accept or deny. People become atheists because they examine the evidence proffered for god and decide that on close examination (rather than simply choosing) to be non-believers. Many people examine their beliefs through the lens of history, science, and the examples of others who believe likewise and often, these people retain their beliefs and I applaud them because their faith is confirmed through this process, similarly to those who come to the conclusion that there is no god. What is worse is when people accept a faith without examination, without wonder, without any intellectual exercise whatsoever. To paraphrase Arthur Clark, a faith which cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth having, nor is a faith unexamined.
sherry, I feel:disrespected every time i drive past that anti-choice billboard on 220. Sometime we all get to feel “disrespected”. But that’s life.
There is no way to prove the premise that there is no god(s). You either know there is a God or you don’t. If you have never seen evidence of God, why would you believe in Him? An atheist can’t say “There is no God”. They can only say “I have seen no proof of God” or “I doubt there is a God”.
When someone tells me they believe in Zeus, I don’t say “There is no Zeus”. I ask “Why?”.
He has a point. Even if God doesn’t exist things like the golden rule, charity, and morality are just good guidelines for life. Thomas Jefferson didn’t necessarily believe in the miracles of the Bible but still defended the basics.
The point of being an atheist is exactly the same point as being anything else. There is no mystery involved. Atheists are not some other species or mutation of humanity.
Every person, whether indoctrinated with religious dogma from birth or never having heard a word of God or the Gospel of Jesus, progresses through life absorbing information, making decisions based on that information, observance and experience.
You are not born knowing God, you have to learn about and accept that God exists, or that he does not. Your walk is yours.
I do not believe anyone has the knowledge to tell anyone what will “happen when you die”. Granted, many of us believe in the final judgment from God and divine justice in the end, but you do not know that will happen any more than an Atheist knows it will not happen. Over and over again the Bible tells us that we do not know, are not meant to know and should not try to “guess”. God is God and yes, the invasion and projection of many is clear in the Bible and in religious dogma. It just is. I think maybe even on purpose so that the goats and the sheep are easier to separate, but I could be wrong. I do not believe that God is like man. I do not believe that God is rigid, judgmental, unforgiving or coarse and vile. That would serve our projection but not God.
If an Atheist concludes that God is not real, does not “exist” or has no meaning for them, that is their choice to make and I do not believe God has given any of us leave to judge, condemn or challenge that. We are to be able to explain our faith and why we believe, not browbeat others into believing. God does not want slaves, God wants servants who come willingly and make that choice for the right reasons. God will be the one to judge if you made it for the right reasons, He knows what is in your heart. No man does, no man can.
You can believe God will “punish” or send to hell anyone who does not believe, but what if instead he forgives them and sends you to hell for your judgment? Sticky wicket, and a smart person would avoid that trap. When he says not to judge, to be without sin before throwing stones, to serve with all of your heart, your mind and your body, He might just mean it.
You are proffering Pascal’s Wager first presented by Blaise Pascal in the 17th century.
Can you be forced into believing something you don’t? Will you believe in fairies if I promise that you will go to heaven and live forever with the Fairy King? Or, better yet, maybe I can scare you into believing in leprechauns by saying that otherwise you will spend eternity in hell with the Anti-Leprechaun.
If I don’t believe in your god but decide to only pretend to believe, wouldn’t an omniscient god be able to detect a “true believer” from a “poser” or is he/she that easily fooled? Maybe I should pretend to be a Christian so that I can go to heaven; is that the sort of morality that would impress you: someone who lies to get into heaven? Maybe I should attend church as a non-believer for the sole purpose of avoiding hell; once again, there’s not much morality there.
But what if you, Aaron, are worshiping the wrong god? After all, mankind has postulated at least 2,800 deities (a conservative estimate). Will you one day have to explain yourself to Sol or Jupiter or Thor or Zeus and have to explain why you chose to believe in a god named Yahweh (or is it three gods?) rather than the true creator of the universe? Using Pascal’s Wager, the only choice would be to believe in all deities. Unfortunately, I think that is most likely expressly forbidden by the god you worship.
Everyone’s entitled to their own beliefs. Reminds me of the inscription on an old tombstone: “Here lies an atheist. All dressed up and no place to go.”
I think the thing that troubles me most about Aaron’s post (and the reason that I am surprised that it made the post of the day) is that he intimates the only reason NOT to be an atheist is because being an atheist isn’t beneficial when a person dies. In other words, the fear of what happens when you die is the reason for a person to have faith–so, to hedge your bets, you’d better not be an atheist. Seems to me fear of death or the afterlife a shallow reason for believing in god in the first place.
PRATT is not worthy of ‘post of the day’ status.
The problem with Aaron’s post is that people don’t choose to be atheists as in choosing to be Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist or Roman Catholics. There is no theology to accept or deny. People become atheists because they examine the evidence proffered for god and decide that on close examination (rather than simply choosing) to be non-believers
I don’t give most atheists elevated status of arriving at their beliefs through thorough examination. I think many default into it out of depression or just giving up on life. Others were born into families who didn’t give much thought to religion.
References to religion not withstanding, outwardly the perfect atheist life should mirror the perfect believer’s life — untiring service to others, standing up for what is right, charity of words and action, and meditation. I see that life in many Christians I know, but I don’t know any atheists who live that way. If they did, then Justin’s “club” would be a service organization, and its members would speak with nothing but charity towards others. Judging from Justin’s withering criticism of God and people who believe in Him, that doesn’t appear to be the case.
“They’ll know we are Christians by our love.”
Now I know what comes next: “Suzie, you don’t seem filled with love”. Well, part of that is the need I feel to be outspoken of here to stand up for things that are right. That will sound negative, even ‘hateful” to those who need to hear it. But the other part is, yes, I still need to work on it. I still enjoy zinging folks in here a litle too much. I try to be good, but then fall right back into it. I will be a work in progress until that urge to slap people around is no longer there. And that probably won’t happen until I give this place up completely.
I do not believe anyone has the knowledge to tell anyone what will “happen when you die”. Granted, many of us believe in the final judgment from God and divine justice in the end, but you do not know that will happen any more than an Atheist knows it will not happen. Over and over again the Bible tells us that we do not know, are not meant to know and should not try to “guess”
This is just flat incorrect. The Bible absolutely speaks of an afterlife. That’s its whole basis. All God says is we don’t know the day or hour.
——
If an Atheist concludes that God is not real, does not “exist” or has no meaning for them, that is their choice to make and I do not believe God has given any of us leave to judge, condemn or challenge that.
You don’t think God allows to challenge the concept of atheism? That makes no sense, whatsoever.
Sandi,
Re: “He (God) knows what is in your heart. No man does, no man can.”
Dan seems to know what is in everyone’s heart and mind; as he continually tells others what they are thinking.
God does expect us to spread the “good news” and you are correct not everyone will choose to believe and that is their prerogative; and ultimately God will decide their fate. Why is it necessary for these folks to “preach” their non-belief at the same time they are telling believers they should remain quiet?
“church of atheism”
I drive by three of these signs on a regular basis and never noticed them until the first defacing article. I don’t believe the billboard campaign unhindered would really increase the membership significantly. It doesn’t work for Churches either. But if it did, so what? Meet and have fun. I will ask this, please let us know of your next community project so that we can meet and make life better for ourselves and each other. I will work beside you to better life if you will allow me. I am a believer by the way! (In the God of the Bible)
P.S. If some Bible Thumping Loon did this to your ads I apologize for the folks who really believe in the message of Christ. We do not and would not condone destruction of someone’s property.
Dan is right. Vandalizing the signs was a dumb move. But nothing will approach the stupidity of a bunch of able bodied OWS losers protesting that others were not giving them enough goodies. That is the benchmark for which all stupidity needs to be measured.
I realized how stupid this argument was when I was 9 years old. I’m still amazed that anyone really believes they can affect a person’s religious beliefs by engaging in some sort of cost-benefit analysis. I would question the sincerity of anyone’s “faith” if they truly believe Pascal’s Wager is a legitimate theological argument.
NU SCOTT,
Well said. I believe it was an inside job.
Mike o, I do not think “these folks “preach” their non-belief“. I think they defend their choice the same as many Christians here have done. They have every right to create a group of like minded folks same as many Christians do and they have the right to “spread” the good news of their choice as they see fit just as Christians do. This being Dan’s blog, they also have the same right “telling believers they should remain quiet” as believers do in telling them the same. Try to look at it from another perspective even if you do not agree with it.
When in doubt, refer to the Bible you claim to believe in:
“Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone,” Colossians 4:5-6
“But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.” 1 Peter 3:15
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?” Matthew 5:43-46
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
Matthew 25:34-36
Think about the woman at the well in John 4, the sinful woman in Luke 7, the adulterer in John 8, the people Jesus healed, hung out with, forgave, preached to. Jesus did not come for the believers, he did not base his love, his guidance, his efforts or his blessings on someone being a “believer” and you might want to think hard on why that was.
I know you miss the absolutely delicious irony of your posts Suzie, but I am thankful to God that I and others do not.
And that probably won’t happen until I give this place up completely.
Comment by Suzie — January 10, 2013 @ 4:45 pm
Much like the love (and wrath) of God, you’ll never know until you try it.
hey terps,
…perfect analogy for ows! what stupes they were, fed by obama and ol’ dano…during the time they were needed politically, then they were kicked to the curb.
where is ol’ dano’s hit piece on lew?
I sometimes wonder, if Adolph Hitler in the split second before he pulled the trigger accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, would he in fact be saved? There are those who say yes. How exactly would that work?
I’ve never had a Jew, gay, Muslim, or atheist try to convert me. The only people who’ve tried to offload their beliefs on me have been Christians.
Frank, we know you enjoy an active fantasy life.
@18 NU SCOTT, you ask about the next community event. One we’re working on that I’m copying directly from the Meetup site:
SHOR members join together to support the Roanoke Clean Valley Council’s annual Clean Valley Day cleanup on Saturday April 13 from 8:30 to Noon.
I don’t know enough about this one yet as it’s being organized by another member but if you contact the Clean Valley Council they may point you to the right time/place.
Best wishes.
My personal philosophy is that if I treat others as I wish to be treated, if I show compassion and caring for others, honor my friends and family I’m going to be okay with anyone’s God. If there is an after life, the key word being “if”, then I figure I should be okay there too, but that does not govern my behavior. I’m comfortable with this and am not the least bit concerned if anyone agrees with me and I’ve no interest in showing others the “light”.
Comment by Art Hill — January 10, 2013 @ 7:32 pm
According to the Bible, if Hitler truly believed in God at that moment and truly wanted forgiveness, then he was welcomed with open arms into the kingdom of heaven. It’s the “easy-out clause”. There is no sin too great to be forgiven if only you believe.
Also, it’s amazing what you’ll believe in when two armies are marching through what’s left of your country, coming to shove some lead boots in your ass for all the atrocities you’ve committed. Everyone’s a badass until the bombs start dropping and bullets start flying at you.
If they did, then Justin’s “club” would be a service organization, and its members would speak with nothing but charity towards others. Judging from Justin’s withering criticism of God and people who believe in Him, that doesn’t appear to be the case. -Suzie
First, I have come to know how you post so you you really don’t bother me at all. But I do need to say something.
Myself and another great Atheist/Secular Humanist started this “club” or group. We have the intentions of building a community and we do charitable works whenever it becomes possible for us. I am not going to say like a church does charitable works, because we do all out of love and respect for our fellow man. Our opinion is that no one is watching, so the only reward we receive is knowing that we have done right by our fellow human… that’s it. No threats, no rewards needed. I don’t need to think a hurricane is going to hit if I don’t help the old lady cross the street, and I don’t think I will walk on streets of gold if I don’t forgive a pedophile. We are who we are, or I am who I am because I think religion is superfluous to not only humankind, but to all of nature.
I am an Atheist because I did grow up in a religious home, and I know the teachings and threats made by Christians… it is rather sad to think some folks would rather presuppose there is a god to be good, but to each their own. Personally, I don’t need it, and the great people I surround myself with don’t need it either.
Lastly, this is not just MY group. It is ALL Atheists’ group. Southern Virginia Atheists is a place where we can ALL enjoy each other’s company without be judged and threatened by monsters under YOUR bed. I can’t criticize something I deem nonexistent(god), but I can criticize it’s works of fiction(bible), and the audacity of someone to tell me how to interpret those works.
As for the “miracle” at Fatima, the only miracle I see is how gullible you are to believe it. This supposed miracle is trumped up by an organization that helped hide one of the worst crimes against humanity the world has ever seen, the Holocaust, and one of the worst pedophile rings the world has ever known!- and you expect me to believe this insane little bed time story? LOL! wait… LMAO!
I can never say that a god is not real, but I can say that if he is, surely he is not as insane as the bible makes him out to be.
Art Hill, Adolph Hitler was a Catholic.
Frank, there are a few ways I can tell an Atheist did not do this.
#1 We would have used red. Its the color of Satan.
#2 We would have rolled it. Do you know how long it took to spray that big word?
#3 We have a sense of pride in our community. Vandalism is done by ignorant criminals with no life.
#4 Atheists Can’t see at night.
#5 Atheists would not spill our finely crafted micro-brew to destroy something we helped create.
#6 Back in my younger day, I was called god all of the time… you know what I mean everyone with a full set of teeth? Sorry Frank. BUT! I didn’t have the foresight of a god to think some little group of non-theists would get lots of attention by destroying a sign… and also risk everything you have worked for to gain attention.
No thanks… I will break the law how everyone else does. I will do 55 in a 54, because I got 99 problems and a theist ain’t one, HIT ME!
“Art Hill, Adolph Hitler was a Catholic.”
Stalin and Mao was both atheists and they killed more people than Hitler.
BTW what was the name of Hitler’s priest? Surely that should be easy to find out.
So, the fact that Stalin & Mao killed more people than Hitler makes Hitler okay, Henry???
Henry… this guy? http://www.redicecreations.com/ul_img/4836hitlereugeniopacelli.jpg
Pope Pius XII???
I believe that if there is an almighty God, that “he” would be supremely self confident and have no inferiority complexes. Such a being would certainly appreciate that a thoughtful mortal might have doubts about God’s existence.
Thus, if God exists, “he” would never damn someone to “hell for simply “not believing”. Only an egomaniac God would do that. Please pardon the expression, but to hell with such a God.
Rather, I believe that if there is a God, he will reward all mortals who treat all others, and nature in general, with dignity, respect and dignity. Also, given that forgiveness comes with self confidence, security, and awareness, if there is a God, I believe “he” must be more forgiving than any mortal can imagine.
hey ron,
i think henry’s responce to jt was not in any way an indication that Henry thinks hitler “is okay”. you’re a smart guy. please re-read the exchange, and see if Henry was REALLY implying the he thought “hitler was ok”. All three mass murderer “leaders” were horrible folks, and jt’s comment appears to impugn Catholics, and Henry threw back some examples of known godless mass murderer leaders. it’s really no more complicated than that.
Markj,
well said. i suspect that many of us who have faith do so believe there is the God you speak of.
@35 Henry, I think it greatly ironic that Stalin started his career studying to be a priest.
I wonder if that’s where he learned to be such a control freak?
“Also, given that forgiveness comes with self confidence, security, and awareness, if there is a God, I believe “he” must be more forgiving than any mortal can imagine.”
Mark is counting on that forgiveness part. (Me too!)
Terps, you mean those “stupid” OWSers you hallucinated defecating in Elmwood Park?
According to the Bible, if Hitler truly believed in God at that moment and truly wanted forgiveness, then he was welcomed with open arms into the kingdom of heaven. It’s the “easy-out clause”. There is no sin too great to be forgiven if only you believe.
If he said those things, then pulled the trigger, that would seem to indicate he wasn’t sincerely interested in turning his life around. But if he were on his deathbed some other way, then, yes, God forgives you no matter how much you’ve done. Now Catholics believe there would be a tremendous price to pay through purgatory, but yes, you would ultimately get in.
I frankly have my doubts guys like that ‘get religion’ at the last minute, though. Saddam didn’t. Ceaucescu didn’t. They cursed their executioners until the very end.
Forgiveness, regardless of where you are trying to find it, you have to forgive yourself. Living life to the fullest is best served in comfortable skin.
In other words, lessons not sin. Life lessons never regrets. I have learned that just because you don’t believe in hell, that doesn’t mean your conscious wont make one for you. The beginnings of religion begins with the lack of understanding of our self-awareness, conscious, and mental capacity to understand that you are ultimately responsible for your own actions and the atmosphere you create. We have carried this tradition on with heavy burdens that we cannot understand or explain. How much longer can we as a society take this abuse?
Fascinating discussion here and in the vandalism thread. Many very thought provoking comments. I value the wisdom of Scott Whitaker:
“My personal philosophy is that if I treat others as I wish to be treated, if I show compassion and caring for others, honor my friends and family I’m going to be okay with anyone’s God. If there is an after life, the key word being “if”, then I figure I should be okay there too, but that does not govern my behavior. I’m comfortable with this and am not the least bit concerned if anyone agrees with me and I’ve no interest in showing others the “light”.”
Comment by scott whitaker — January 10, 2013 @ 7:49 pm
Faith is intensely individual, carved by a mix of intuition and experience. Debating whose faith is the most worthy is wholly unproductive. Someone once said somethng to the effect that “true intelligence was the ability to hold two opposing thoughts in your mind at one time.” I think an honest discussion about faith requires it.
Lastly, this is not just MY group. It is ALL Atheists’ group. Southern Virginia Atheists is a place where we can ALL enjoy each other’s company without be judged and threatened by monsters under YOUR bed. I can’t criticize something I deem nonexistent(god), but I can criticize it’s works of fiction(bible), and the audacity of someone to tell me how to interpret those works.
See what I mean, Justin? Even in that short answer, you couldn’t help but attack and denigrate theism and theists. That tells me your organization doesn’t stand for love or public service, or any of that.
————
<emAs for the “miracle” at Fatima, the only miracle I see is how gullible you are to believe it. This supposed miracle is trumped up by an organization that helped hide one of the worst crimes against humanity the world has ever seen, the Holocaust, and one of the worst pedophile rings the world has ever known!- and you expect me to believe this insane little bed time story? LOL! wait… LMAO!
I can never say that a god is not real, but I can say that if he is, surely he is not as insane as the bible makes him out to be.
OK, after sifting through all the insults, I still don’t see where you have addressed that a child predicted a supernatural event to the date and hour that was witnessed by tens of thousands, including non-believers.
I know you miss the absolutely delicious irony of your posts Suzie, but I am thankful to God that I and others do not.
Sandi, is that the third or fourth unsolicited hate-filled comment you’ve made to me the last couple of days? Then you say you won’t be civil to some people no matter what. After that, you support every atheist comment in here, while blasting Christians. You’ve also said you know abortion kills human beings, but support it anyway. For someone who claims to be an active Christian churchgoer, I’m just wondering what church you belong to.
I try to be good, but then fall right back into it. I will be a work in progress until that urge to slap people around is no longer there. And that probably won’t happen until I give this place up completely.
Comment by Suzie — January 10, 2013 @ 4:45 pm
We can only hope.
I “belong” to no church. I worship Christ and believe in God, I love the church I attend and the people in it, but I have little use for religious dogma and refuse any interpretation of God or Christ from the likes of you.
Christ taught me everything I have “blasted Christians” with.
I did not “support every atheist comment in here”. I took Dave G to task just today.
I have never, not ever, said I “support abortion”. I support everything that I believe will give women the chance to make a better choice, but I support a woman’s right to decide for herself.
No, I will never be one scintilla more civil to you than I have to be to participate here. Not ever.
Jason Perdue @10:26
Well said. Those are my thoughts as well.
Allen:
“Even if God doesn’t exist things like the golden rule, charity, and morality are just good guidelines for life.”
None of which come from belief in God. If someone thinks his/her God is transmitting those qualities to him/her, they can be turned off instantly. That kind of instability is not worht passing on.
Kristen:
“I’ve never had a Jew, gay, Muslim, or atheist try to convert me. The only people who’ve tried to offload their beliefs on me have been Christians.”
No kidding. There may be 10,000 beliefs in the warehouse, but Christianity sure monopolizes the loading dock.
Justin True:
“Frank, there are a few ways I can tell an Atheist did not do this.
#1 We would have used red. Its the color of Satan. #…4 Atheists Can’t see at night… I will do 55 in a 54, because I got 99 problems and a theist ain’t one, HIT ME!”
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA…. ROFLMAO!
This was the only reason to look at this blog today.
Suzie:
“OK, after sifting through all the insults, I still don’t see where you have addressed that a child predicted a supernatural event to the date and hour that was witnessed by tens of thousands, including non-believers.”
For what it’s worth, I too think that claim of a “miracle” is pure crap.
JW,
You didn’t like the video of the gun guy from Tennessee? I’m crushed. . .
I didn’t even click on it, Dan. Maybe I’ll do that now…
Justin, You need to understand the context of the bible better.
Old Testament – Man fall into Sin, God tries to fix/help/control the sin many different ways before his ultimate plan is put in place. The Old testament is Law and full of severe punishments for those in sin. Yes, harsh stuff to get their attention. Why? God provide the law through Moses and the people still kept blowing it.
New Testament- But then he sent a Savior. The savior that even Sandi talks about and the love/grace/forgiveness/mercy that is shown to everyone. Most people read the Bible as a Hero story. I believe he saved us by sending his son, and as a Christian my job is to follow and live as he did to the best of my ability. Do I fail as a Christian–you bet. But when I stumble–I have the grace that has been given by a love that passes all understanding. This is what Christians believe…this hate and horror story you are talking about …is one big reading comprehension failure.
For what it’s worth, I too think that claim of a “miracle” is pure crap.
I guess it’s easier than looking at all the circumstances.
“I will be a work in progress until that urge to slap people around is no longer there. And that probably won’t happen until I give this place up completely.”
Riiiiight. suzie was a perfectly kind, gentle, civil soul until she started posting here, and she’ll turn back into one if only she can force herself to leave the blog.
Brooklyn Bridge for sale! Brooklyn Bridge for sale!
Late Score Christians 0 Atheist 2013 – With the Roanoke Times publishing full color photos of atheist billboards and their advocates, you now have your own newspaper. I am, however, reminded by Art Hill’s brief contribution ” Pascals Wager ” and 3rd Fred’s ” all dressed up and no place to go ” on a tombstone. I had the good fortune to play the part of Father Charlie Dunbar in The God Committee at Attic Theater a few years ago and shared lines; Dunbar: Dr., Banks, you mentioned heaven and hell – do you know Pascal’s Wager?” The reply something like “if you’re right you’ll find your way to heaven and if you’re wrong you’re a crispy critter.” And, this morning’s Non Sequitur displayed a tombstone that read “Seeing Life From Both Sides Now”. Why gamble? Perhaps the Christians don’t know but neither do the atheist, so why gamble, the odds might just be in your favor.
For what it’s worth, I too think that claim of a “miracle” is pure crap.
Comment by John Wilburn — January 10, 2013 @ 11:46 pm
Personally, I always enjoy reading what you have to say, JW, Whether I agree or not.
Justin, You need to understand the context of the bible better.
“Old Testament – Man fall into Sin, God tries to fix/help/control the sin many different ways before his ultimate plan is put in place. The Old testament is Law and full of severe punishments for those in sin. Yes, harsh stuff to get their attention. Why? God provide the law through Moses and the people still kept blowing it.
New Testament- But then he sent a Savior. The savior that even Sandi talks about and the love/grace/forgiveness/mercy that is shown to everyone. Most people read the Bible as a Hero story. I believe he saved us by sending his son, and as a Christian my job is to follow and live as he did to the best of my ability. Do I fail as a Christian–you bet. But when I stumble–I have the grace that has been given by a love that passes all understanding. This is what Christians believe…this hate and horror story you are talking about …is one big reading comprehension failure.”
–Comment by pistol pete
pp, to the extent you are trying to persuade people to a point of view, this statement is a rotten strategy. Because essentially you’re saying God tried hard, in different ways, for thousands of years, to keep his creation on the straight and narrow — and blew it time after time until in frustration he turned it over to a third party and even that didn’t work. It paints God as a screwup.
“New Testament- But then he sent a Savior. The savior that even Sandi talks about and the love/grace/forgiveness/mercy that is shown to everyone.”
See, this is is perverse in it’s own right. Simply creating a god in human form and having it tortured and killed isn’t a moral or ethical act. It’s scape goating, the only difference is the sacrifice was human, and not a goat. This practice was going on in cultures for thousands of years all with idea that taking a life can appease supernatural power in some way. The ethical or moral shortcomings of my life cannot be thrown upon another person, and in my opinion the belief that they can causes more more moral and ethical ambiguity, not less.
Give you an example. We now know that child molestation in the Catholic church was a big problem. We also know that church leaders around the world were well aware of this behaviour, and did little but move perpetrators from one community to another to deal with the issue. Nobody called the police. Nobody intervened to stop the molestation. The church circled the wagons and protected its own.
I bet everyone of those priests confessed to privately to their god, or to through their earthly intermediary for forgiveness and found solace in their relationship with Christ. Then they molested kids again.
Now, imagine how different the situation would be if those who molest had to seek forgiveness directly from the person whom they have wronged, or from that person’s family. Hardly ever happens because real repentance, that which involves the conscious understanding of pain caused, and a direct face to face discussion of forgiveness, is just a little to hard form most people to face up to. It’s particularly hard when the position of authority one holds claims a moral high ground.
Tell you what, Liniel, at the end of the year let’s add up the stories that the RT has run where religion/Christianity is the central character and is cast in a good light versus the stories they run specifically about atheism. I’m willing to bet Christianity will win in a knockout.
Not true Dan, Jesus birth and resurrection are both talked about in Isaiah ..which Historians factually present was written hundreds of years before. The point being, He had a divine plan…but He gave man free will. His greatest creation couldn’t live up to the law, so he sent Jesus.
OK, after sifting through all the insults, I still don’t see where you have addressed that a child predicted a supernatural event to the date and hour that was witnessed by tens of thousands, including non-believers.
Comment by Suzie — January 10, 2013 @ 10:48 pm
Nothing supernatural happened at Fatima. The sun danced around in the sky (which happens anytime you stare at it for an extended period of time – they’re called phosphene effects and are a result of retinal damage occurring). The witnesses didn’t all see the same “miracle”, either, including some believers who saw nothing at all, which makes this whole “miracle” thing a bit ambiguous (God seems to have cornered the market on ambiguous messages/visions).
As for the predictions: First, everyone knew that Russia was going to undergo a revolution. It had been building for years. Such a massive country with a plethora of resources and people is almost destined to become a superpower, too (see also: China). Sure, Russia was eventually consecrated as the “prophecy” foretold, but the promised period of peace never materialized.
As for the prediction of World War II: Lúcia dos Santos waited for over a decade, witnessed the most intense aurora in over 200 years and then said that that was the sign. Hitler was also very heavily into the occult and could’ve also interpreted this as a sign to begin the rise of Third Reich. That’s not a miracle; that’s an astronomically-influenced coincidence.
The third prophecy is a non-issue for two reasons: one, it hasn’t happened and two, the Catholic Church, in their ever-consumptive greed, didn’t follow the Blessed Virgin’s directions. The third secret wasn’t revealed until 2000, 40 years after it was instructed to be released. Now why wouldn’t they release the third secret as directed? The Church had never kept any secrets before then, right?
Ostensibly, one could tie the Church’s stalling back into this missing period of peace that was prophesied and never materialized. One could argue that all the upheaval and unrest of the late 20th century and early 21st are the fault of the Catholic Church. Perhaps the world is being punished for the Church’s greed.
When it all washes out, Sister Lucy is batting .500 on her prophecies and if the intervention was truly divine, the Blessed Virgin should’ve foreseen this transgression by the Catholic Church and specifically instructed Lúcia dos Santos NOT to release the information to them.
Oh, by the way… one of the the shepherd childrens’ penance exercises was to not drink water on hot days. Guess what one of the side effects of dehydration is – hallucinations.
I also question why the first vision given to those young, impressionable children was one of hell and demons. What better way to express your benevolence than to show children a terrifying vision and then tell them that they must flagellate, cause extreme pain to and intentionally dehydrate themselves! I can’t help but think that God has one sick, twisted sense of humor; we have to suffer even when we have done no wrong. I’m sure He just passes it off as a character-building exercise.
So there’s your “miracle”, Suzie – a century-old tale that gets more convoluted and inaccurate as time goes on, much like all of history and subsequently, religions.
“Not true Dan, Jesus birth and resurrection are both talked about in Isaiah” -pp
That is not true, pp. You are talking about Isaiah 53. Isaiah was written sometime between 740-680 b.c.e. and even has two very distinct authors to this book. If you read Isaiah, it is so incredibly vague and presumptuous. It would be like me saying, “Soon a man will come to Southern Virginia Atheists, and he will be a great speaker. He will write very well and will be well read. Then he will start up a web page just for SVA.” And then around 6 months from now, it happens. Holy Mother of Mithra! I am a psychic! Write it down folks, you heard it here first, the sun will consume the Earth one day! Man, pistol pete, I just keep cranking these predictions out!
Its funny that Jews, the ones who started all of the Abrahamic myths don’t believe anything in the New Testament… You know the New Testament, the cannon originally written in Greek and Aramaic?
pp, what do you think these passages mean? Just curious…
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
Here’s what really sucks for atheists:
http://youtu.be/wogta8alHiU
. suzie was a perfectly kind, gentle, civil soul until she started posting here, and she’ll turn back into one if only she can force herself to leave the blog.
Are you the same in real life as you are in here, Gdad? I hope to God not.
But I would argue that nobody is except maybe OJ and Michael Howdyshell.
As for the predictions: First, everyone knew that Russia was going to undergo a revolution….
No, the miracle I’m talking about was the one predicted at 12:00 noon October 13, 1917 where up to 70,000 were waiting to see it and saw it, including believers and non believers. Where it was raining buckets stopped suddenly, the sky opened, the sun appeared to whir like a top, extraordinary colors were cast on the earth, and the sun appeared to approach the earth and dry up the mud.
The event was extraordinary in itself, but the fact that it was predicted down to the hour –months in advance –makes it a miracle.
I still haven’t seen you debunk it, J. M. White.
I have never, not ever, said I “support abortion”. I support everything that I believe will give women the chance to make a better choice, but I support a woman’s right to decide for herself.
Of course you support abortion, because you believe it’s OK if it happens.
As an illustration, do you support a man’s choice to rape? Do you think he should have the right to decide to for himself whether to rape or not? Of course you wouldn’t. That would be obviously absurd.
Comment by Suzie — January 11, 2013 @ 3:09 pm
As always, a litany of false equivalences
Sandi, re: 7:16 “think hard…”
I understand your words.
I also understand that Jesus wanted the “good news” spread. In fact you noted it in your post. He gave for “all” and wanted the “unbelievers” to “believe”.
For “believers” there is a useful purpose to “preach” salvation; because we do love our fellowman.
What is the “useful” purpose of these folks?
I don’t understand why they might find it necessary to spend their wealth in this manner unless they are trying to get people to move away from believing in God. Would not their wealth be better spent on the poorest amongst us?
I think what they are doing is silly, but they have the “right” to do it. It seems to me they are only trying to stick a finger in the eye of believers. No matter…
Dan: re: 10:39 “screwup”
You might consider that it paints “man” as a “screwup” when given the ability to make decisions.
My personal comparison of a loving God, is like that of a loving parent. We attempt to instill in our children right and wrong. If they make mistakes, we admonish them; as they grow, if they continue with these mistakes we punish them, in adulthood, if they continue further, we ultimately have no recourse but to let them suffer for the mistakes they might make. We don’t love them less, but in adulthood, their decisions are their own.
A bit simplistic, I know, and I realize that God sees a bigger picture than I could ever imagine.
My 2 cents…
“No, the miracle I’m talking about was the one predicted at 12:00 noon October 13, 1917 where up to 70,000 were waiting to see it and saw it, including believers and non believers. Where it was raining buckets stopped suddenly, the sky opened, the sun appeared to whir like a top, extraordinary colors were cast on the earth, and the sun appeared to approach the earth and dry up the mud.”
Comment by Suzie — January 11, 2013 @ 3:01 pm
That would be fine, except that you’re mixing the many different things that the people saw as if they all saw the same thing and misrepresenting the weather conditions, too. The rain didn’t suddenly stop, though that makes the drama of the story that much greater. Many of the witnesses’ testimonies state that the rain came to an end around 11AM that morning. The descriptions of the sun’s dance differed greatly between witnesses, as well. The multiple colors and the sun “approaching” the earth were also all described differently by various witnesses. Some believers saw nothing at all and some non-believers saw phenomena. It’s like being at a football game; depending on your bias, location and attention span, you might see different aspects of the game than I do.
I’m not saying that something phenomenal didn’t happen at Cova da Iria, but it’s not a miracle because of the ambiguity of the entire event. People witnessed many different things. Some people saw nothing. Some witnesses later changed their stories to match what their peers said they saw. What was the big deal about Mary showing herself to the children, but not to anyone else gathered to witness it? Why couldn’t God, in His infinite power, allow everyone to see the same thing? It would have the same, if not a greater impact and been less likely to be misconstrued and twisted by later generations.
In that respect, the God of the Bible is a lot like Loki from Norse mythology – a trickster god. He gives us free will, sets our rules and desires in opposition and is vague and vaporous in His divine miracles. Then He turns us loose. It reeks of the human race being set up to fail, and what entity would do such thing and still be worthy of being considered benevolent? It’s like putting a kitten in a box with toys that shock it when it plays with them.
Oh, and predicting something to the hour and day and then having to be there and point out the event to others by telling them where to look does not a miracle make. By that date, the entire area was in a hysteria over these little children. They were threatened to be boiled alive by Artur Santos, the town administrator, if they didn’t reveal their secrets! You’re setting people up to see exactly what they want to see.
Given that it’s virtually impossible to debunk a century-old event, this is, of course, an academic discussion. If you apply Occam’s Razor to the event, however, it gets pared down pretty quickly and God is nowhere to be found. Phenomenal, yes. Miraculous, no.
I wish I could find my old research materials on this event. I did a term paper on the Fatima Phenomenon for my theology class when I attended Washington College Academy. The various stuff on the subject around the web pales in comparison to the clippings, books and microfiche that I had on it. It truly was a fascinating event, but the evidence for it being a miracle just isn’t there, IMO.
Alas, just as the church cannot dictate to me, I cannot dictate to the Catholic Church.
Oh, and predicting something to the hour and day and then having to be there and point out the event to others by telling them where to look does not a miracle make.
I don’t believe she specified in advance what the miracle would be or that it would come from the sky.
———–
It’s like being at a football game; depending on your bias, location and attention span, you might see different aspects of the game than I do.
Thank you for explaining the disparate accounts of the event and making my case.
When you have 40,000 or 50,000 or 70,000 people seeing something, it’s not unlikely you would have a naysayer or two, saying they didn’t see anything. Just like with the 59 Philadelphia precincts that gave obama 100% of the vote. Exponentially unlikely not to have a few dissenters.
I don’t believe she specified in advance what the miracle would be or that it would come from the sky.
I never implied that she did and there is no evidence to support it. I just said that she had to be there and tell them where to look, which in no way lends credence to a “miracle” occurring. A rare weather phenomenon coupled with the power of suggestion can make people see a lot of things.
Sometimes on the ocean, you can see land that is many miles over the horizon, beyond the curvature of the planet. Yet, still you can see it. It appears like a floating island. These islands can even be seen “moving” as the angle of the refraction changes. Moving, false “suns” and radiant colors happen around the globe, too – http://bit.ly/VYOX5z . Is that a miracle? Thunderstorms also cause false suns and they can be spectacular – http://bit.ly/ZRP61c . Is that a miracle? What about if you were looking for and expecting a miracle?
You still don’t get it, though. In my research, I didn’t find a “naysayer or two”. I had reported testimony from over 700 witnesses and less than than 200 of them had identical stories. That is a massive disparity in the reports. Using the football game analogy, that’s a lot like a sizable chunk of the stadium said the losing team won the game, even though the scoreboard says they lost by 35 points.
I know I’m not going to change your mind, Suzie, and I didn’t expect to. I do, however, think you should try to apply your infamous skepticism and cynicism to some of the dogma the church tries to pass off as reality. There’s nothing sinful about that; it’s even healthy. God commands you to seek knowledge and nowhere does He say that the church is infallible. You and I both know that there’s ample evidence out there of that fact.
Mike O, you can project and make it as simple as you feel necessary. All any of you are really doing is defending the man interpreted, man transcribed and man controlled scripture that was “released” by kings and clerics in power, as they willed. You have not begun to touch on what God is, nor will any of you IMO. God gave Moses 10 Commandments, Leviticus is chock full of confusing, angry, almost impossible to meet “laws” that Jews were and are to live under. Do you even comprehend that God did not write those? You are defending Christianity (or more specifically, your denomination of it), not God. The history of religion is not the history of God. Never has been, never will be. The Bible, the Qu’ran and the Torah barely touch God, they are descriptions and stories of man’s struggle to find and understand God, they are the history of our religious journey. Some of you do not seem capable of grasping that truth. No wonder you do not exemplify what you claim to believe, you do not even understand what you believe. It is also no wonder an Atheist or two can tie you in knots tighter than Houdini could escape.
Excellent point Mike Scott — January 11, 2013 @ 11:14 am #61! Most of these folks have not even scratched the surface of faith, forgiveness, redemption or God. Their attacks even in the face of the scripture they claim is the “infallible Word of God” proves their insincere belief and commitment.
I have always been blown away with the twelve-step program in AA. THAT comes closer to the idea of redemption that is our relationship to God than anything any of these Christians offers here.
They have to “seek forgiveness directly from the person whom they have wronged”, THAT is surrender, that is humility, that is redemption.
It bears repeating because you said it so well: “real repentance, that which involves the conscious understanding of pain caused, and a direct face to face discussion of forgiveness” is crucial and it is all too true that it is just too hard for too many people to face. You give them more credit than I do in saying “It’s particularly hard when the position of authority one holds claims a moral high ground”. I think it is especially hard when you believe you are superior to those you are supposedly confessing to and trying to save. You have to believe it is “good news” before you can sell it.
It bears repeating because you said it so well: “real repentance, that which involves the conscious understanding of pain caused, and a direct face to face discussion of forgiveness” is crucial and it is all too true that it is just too hard for too many people to face.
What is Sandi saying here? Does she feel wronged and want to be asked for forgiveness?
As always, a litany of false equivalences
In what way is the comparison not equivalent?
Using Hitler as positive reinforcement for any argument, not just atheism, is supporting pure evil!!!Really??
I don’t believe in God, I haven’t since I was about six or seven. The stories in the Bible just didn’t add up, and I really lacked any sort of proof he existed.
These billboards are great. People in this area are always talking about God, Church, Jesus, etc and are not very kind to people that have mentioned they don’t believe in their religion. It’s nice to know there are other like minded people I can be open with. They’re people I can actually open up to and be myself around.
I don’t care if you believe in God. I don’t want to argue with you about whether he’s real or not. While I don’t agree with everything in the Bible, I think it teaches some important lessons. We’re all grown ups, can’t we just put this one difference aside and get along?
I have a question that I’ve really wanted to ask religious people. Why do you think your religion is correct? There are so many different religions, how do you know that you’ve chosen the right one? Also, how do you feel about other religions? This is something I’ve always been curious about, but I’ve avoided asking anyone in person because I don’t want to offend them.
I have a question that I’ve really wanted to ask religious people. Why do you think your religion is correct? There are so many different religions, how do you know that you’ve chosen the right one? Also, how do you feel about other religions? This is something I’ve always been curious about, but I’ve avoided asking anyone in person because I don’t want to offend them.
Although I believe people can reach heaven through other religions, I believe my Catholic faith gives people the most tools to do it.
1. It embraces the New Testament more than other faiths.
2. The line of popes is unbroken in 2000 years despite all the upheavals that have taken place in that time.
3. It originated from Jesus and at the time of Jesus. it was not started by a mere man.
4. All of its teachings make perfect sense rationally.
5. Marian apparitions seem to take place to Catholics. Fatima is evidence of the supernatural.
6. Its views don’t change for every whim of man.
the saint @77 – here is an example of how illogical your thinking appears when you use a false premise to make a nonsensical point:
1.God is love,
2.love is blind,
3.therefore Stevie Wonder is god.
I’m pretty certain Stevie Wonder should not be deified…
Comment by Suzie — January 12, 2013 @ 8:16 am
“2. The line of popes is unbroken in 2000 years despite all the upheavals that have taken place in that time.”
Popes are nothing more than men who, by manipulation or trickery, become the head of the Catholic church. Many popes were evil men – nothing saintly about them…
Pope John XII “…[people] knew with certainty: he had fornicated with the widow of Rainier, with Stephana his father’s concubine, with the widow Anna, and with his own niece, and he made the sacred palace into a whorehouse. They said that he had gone hunting publicly; that he had blinded his confessor Benedict, and thereafter Benedict had died; that he had killed John, cardinal subdeacon, after castrating him; and that he had set fires, girded on a sword, and put on a helmet and cuirass.”
or
Pope Benedict IX – “…allegedly had few qualifications for the papacy other than connections with a socially powerful family…St. Peter Damian described him as “feasting on immorality” and “a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest” in the Liber Gomorrhianus, a treatise on papal corruption and sex that accused Benedict IX of routine homosexuality and bestiality…He was also accused by Bishop Benno of Piacenza of “many vile adulteries and murders.” Pope Victor III referred to “his rapes, murders and other unspeakable acts. His life as a Pope so vile, so foul, so execrable, that I shudder to think of it.”
or
Pope Alexander VI – “Born Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander VI is so famous for his debased reign that his surname has become synonymous with the debased standards of the papacy in his era.
it was not long before his passion for endowing his relatives at the church’s and his neighbours’ expense became manifest. To that end he was ready to commit any crime and to plunge all Italy into war.”
http://listverse.com/2007/08/17/top-10-most-wicked-popes/
These are but a few of the “line of popes [is] unbroken in 2000 years” -they too represent the Catholic church.
When religions, such as Catholicism, elevate humans to a holier status than everyone else, religion tends to become corrupted. Popes are men, nothing more, nothing less. How is a pope different than Jim Jones, David Koresh and many others who ask the “flock” to sacrifice while they either live in opulence, or decline to follow their own “teachings”?
I’m pretty certain Stevie Wonder should not be deified…
Comment by Hillary — January 12, 2013 @ 9:51 am
HERETIC! Burn her!
J.M. White @83 – That’s funny…uh-oh – people outside my home with pitchforks and torches. Should I be worried?
My favorite Stevie Wonder track…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_ul7X5js1vE
JM White…. I say we make a bridge out of her!!!
It’s all good, Hillary. I prostrated myself and prayed to Lord Wonder for two solid hours for Him to forgive you and He sent me a sign. One might even call it a miracle.
A stinkbug landed on my second monitor and covered up the “not” in “should not be deified”. It stayed there for about five minutes and I had to explain to my better half why I couldn’t stop giggling. She told me to take a photo and share it.
Lord Wonder apparently doesn’t like photographic evidence of His miracles, either… just like that other God. I went to grab the camera and as I pulled it out of the case, the stinkbug flew away.
Do you see now? Do you see the error of your ways? Fear not, fair lady, for Lord Wonder is willing to forgive and His love for you knows no bounds. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwOU3bnuU0k
Stevie is great. Stevie is good. Praise Stevie and His arthropod angels!
Justin True: I’m not sure if we could get her to submit to the duck test, though.
J M White – First, thanks for almost saving my “soul”
However that thingy about false idols…bowing down…taking the name of Stevie Wonder in vain…you know that kind of stuff, well I don’t believe in it…[bolt of lightning avoided]
So now I have a song for you…in “His” own words!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX6SWmOwJCo
Hillary,
Sure. These popes are human, and humans sin. You’re saying the fact they do nullifies the unbroken chain started by Jesus through St. Peter?
As for their manipulation to get the top spot, take a look at Pius X, the only papal saint the last 300 years. He turned down the office before being begged to take it. He felt himself unworthy.
I thought you were Catholic, Hillary.
Well played, Hillary.
Well played.
JM White: it matters not! She was born with a vagina. So, she must submit!
There’s a 68-year knot in your unbroken chain, Suzie, which subsequently resulted in your chain having three (and arguably more) ends. That certainly dims the significance of your church’s “miraculous” lineage.
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/westeurope/greatschism.html
Comment by Justin True — January 12, 2013 @ 11:42 pm
I grew up in a house full of sisters with my ex-Marine (1963) single mother working a full-time job while earning a Master’s degree. You’re gonna have to fall on that sword by yourself, my friend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo
a 68-year knot in your unbroken chain, Suzie, which subsequently resulted in your chain having three (and arguably more) ends. That certainly dims the significance of your church’s “miraculous” lineage.
Not at all. Regardless of whatever authority someone else tried to claim, the unbroken line continues.
JM White –
Suzie just waved her hand over the other lines and ‘anti-popes’ and said ‘these are not the popes you are looking for’.
“I thought you were Catholic, Hillary.”
Comment by Suzie — January 12, 2013 @ 10:54 pm
I am Catholic but I’m a thinking Catholic… which is becoming more of an oxymoron each year…
Even if the “line” IS unbroken, so what? Big deal.
You don’t attend mass, and you disagree with major tenets of the Church. Other than that you’re Catholic, right Hillary?
Even if the “line” IS unbroken, so what? Big deal.
It’s a big deal because the unbroken papacy traces directly back to St. Peter and Jesus, It has endured when civilizations have faded away.
An “unbroken chain” would be more like a convoy of buses, since the pope is not the church. Without followers, there would be no church and there would be no pope. The problem with your “unbroken chain” is that parts of your convoy have taken different exits along the highway.
Essentially, you’ve broken your church from following the precepts of God into following the precepts of a man – a man in whom a large chunk of the original flock no longer believes. God is supposed to be the “unbroken chain” of your church, not some dubious papal lineage. The papal legacy offers no more credibility to the existence of God than Twinkies and Pop Rocks.
In the beginning, it was about consolidating the many disparate sects of Christianity – to unite the religion. Catholicism became nothing more than a way to exercise control of people and their money. St. Peter would be appalled at what you’ve allowed to happen to the church to which he dedicated and ultimately gave his life.
There has been no “enduring” of the church. It’s been a twisted, looping rollercoaster ride for two millenia that has left a rotten, corrupt carcass of an institution. Catholicism shows exactly how venal religion can become when greed, power and control become the objects of worship. The power structure within the church is set up no differently that history’s most despotic (and infamous) regimes. Your flock has been led to fallow pastures, Suzie. You may worship God in earnest, but the leaders of your church now bow to an unholy trinity.
So Jesus was a Catholic? Who knew????
Debbie, I bet there are plenty of people who’d be stunned to hear Jesus was Jewish, and would probably call you a communist for saying so.
Since moving down here, I’ve been told by more than one people that Catholics aren’t Christians. My older son has told me he has several friends of that opinion.
JM White… it twas but a joke my friend.
Re: Suzie @ 12:00 pm
FWIIW, other denominations (e.g., the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Church of the East, the Anglican Communion, the Liberal Catholic Church and some Lutheran Churches, etc) have an unbroken Apostolic succession.
So what is your point? The term “Pope” trumps Patriarch, Presiding Bishop, etc?
BTW, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also claim apostolic succession through the process of restoration.
FWIIW, Confessional Lutheranism rejects Apostolic succession, stating that that there’s no evidence the Popes have historic succession from Peter other than their own claims.
Believing something does not establish fact.
Comment by Suzie — January 13, 2013 @ 11:54 am
“You don’t attend mass, and you disagree with major tenets of the Church. Other than that you’re Catholic, right Hillary?”
Not that it is any of your business…however, I was raised in a Catholic family and attended Catholic school. When asked my religion, I say a non-practicing Catholic. At some point I no longer believed in dragons, Santa Claus or the tooth fairy…I also realized that there wasn’t some “guy” in the heavens protecting and guiding me, nor anyone. No loving Christian god or Muslim god…none.
As I have said many times before, having worked for 30+ years as a social worker – working with violent families and child abuse – the lesson learned was: there. is. no. loving. god. The dead and injured children had no “god” protecting them, and the nonsense of free will is beyond stupid when dealing with a beaten and battered dead child. No amount of prayers were ever answered – no amount of prayers lessened the battered and dead numbers of children – and certainly no comfort is gleaned from the priests, who never had children, saying, with a straight face, words like, “this is god’s will”. I want no part of that type of merciless and vindictive god.
Not one of your comments over the years – bigoted, homophobic, misogynist and cruel – represents anything “Catholic” and certainly would not inspire anyone to return to a religion you profess to represent.
JM White… it twas but a joke my friend.
Comment by Justin True — January 13, 2013 @ 2:18 pm
I know, man. I meant my comment lightheartedly, as well, then realized after I posted it that it almost reads like I’m chastising you. You have my apologies if that was also the impression you had.
Mainly, my response was because if my mother heard me talking about a woman submitting, even in jest, she’d beat me half to death. She may be 70 years old, but I still fear her a little – the strongest woman I’ve ever known, inside and out. When they made her, they broke the mold and then dragged the mold-maker into the street and had him drawn and quartered.
Hence, me linking The Gambler. I just had to “walk away” from that one.