Sunday’s column: Sleight of hand at the gas pump
Savannah, Ga. | Lukelastic | Wikimedia Commons
The price of regular gas is around $3.15 per gallon, give or take. I bet you’d like to see that dip below the $3 mark, right? Who wouldn’t?
That’s one of the things Gov. Bob McDonnell is counting on with his eyebrow-raising proposal to end once and for all Virginia’s 17.5-cents-per-gallon tax on gasoline in order to solve Virginia’s long-running transportation-funding problems.
But reaction seemed mixed among Roanoke Valley motorists last week shortly after McDonnell trotted out the idea. I drove around town and pestered them at the pumps for their thoughts.
Before we get to those, here’s a brief outline: McDonnell would end Virginia’s tax on gasoline (but not diesel fuel) and he estimates that will save Virginia motorists $3.5 billion at the pump over 5 years.
To replace that lost revenue, the General Assembly would increase the general sales tax from 5 percent to 5.8 percent. That would apply to clothing, food at restaurants, furniture, appliances, autos, and just about any other item you purchase other than medicine or groceries or vehicle fuel. The current 2.5 percent sales tax on groceries would not increase.
READ THE REST OF THIS COLUMN HERE.
January 13, 2013 - 6:00 AM
In favor of the removal of the gas tax and i am in favor of the .8% increase in the sales tax IF it goes to support the roads which badly need it, just not a fan of the increase in the registration price on cars because we pay enough now along with the county sticker i still pay for ( but dont have). We have one vehicle we use for transportation to work for my wife because our daughter uses 1 car to travel to Bridgewater college and we have 1 car that my son uses, 3 vehicles x the $15 plus the fee that was already there and it gets very expensive. But i guess i have found a way to make it this far i can just keep on keeping on as they say.
Why would anyone want to remove the gas tax? It’s nearly a direct consumption tax (is for gas, nearly so for road use due to different fuel efficiencies) that’s collected to the state and is marked for transportation. The two problems are that the gas tax hasn’t been increased since 1986 and the Virginia General Assembly has plundered the VDOT’s construction trust fund. So increase the gas tax and index it to inflation, the budget, or VDOT’s budget. Not only does the state get more transportation revenue but the indexing means they wouldn’t have to vote for increasing the gas tax in the future. VDOT’s construction trust fund needs to be partially replenished to make sure that Virginia doesn’t miss out on Federal matching funds and can actually construct. But the trust fund (and all trust funds (like the social security trust fund or the Virginia Retirement System) should be protected, or in Al Gore’s words, put in a “lock box”. I assume politically that would mean a vast supermajority of the legislature would have to vote to remove funds and simultaneously create a pathway to put the money back in. Why would anyone believe that McDonnell and the GA would direct the extra general funds (sales tax) revenue to transportation when it was just 2 years or so ago that they stole money out of the Virginia Retirement System to balance the budget?
The gas tax is effective. Look at North Carolina. Their gas tax is twice is much but their gas prices are only about 5c/gallon more than VA’s and their road system is vastly better than ours. The difference is that in the 80′s they indexed their gas tax. See the article at
http://www.dailypress.com/news/traffic/exclusive/dp-nws-series-transportation-history-two-20130106,0,4641193,full.story
Is there any step any conservative could offer to increase revenue other than “raise the income tax on the rich” that wouldn’t be met with the tired old meme about unfairly penalizing the poor and elderly? I am so tired of the liberal double-talk. They constantly whine about “everyone needing to pay their fair share” but then wail like banshees anytime someone suggests a tax that actually hits everyone.
McDonnell has actually done what you wanted. He came up with an actual, workable way to increase funding for transportation that might actually pass through the obstinate clown college that is the General Assembly. That’s a feat the democratic governors of recent years have not been able to pull off. So I ask you, are the objections to this because you really think it is a bad idea, or is it because of who proposed it?
“Is there any step any conservative could offer to increase revenue other than “raise the income tax on the rich” that wouldn’t be met with the tired old meme about unfairly penalizing the poor and elderly? I am so tired of the liberal double-talk. They constantly whine about “everyone needing to pay their fair share” but then wail like banshees anytime someone suggests a tax that actually hits everyone.”
–Comment by Chuck
Yes, Chuck. Raise the gas tax. It’s the simplest, fairest and most direct way to raise transportation revenue — 11 percent of which would come from out-of-state gas buyers. You just don’t get that, do you?
I know you’re starry-eyed over McDonnell’s gimmick. You proabably likes the silly, sell-the-ABC stores idea, too. The fact is, anyone who wants to see cuts to education AND other key state programs (like prisons) down the road WOULD like this plan. Because if it passes, transportation will be a general fund expenditure that will compete with those other programs for funding. And the scheme is surely admired by anyone who would like to spread the cost from people who necessarily DO use the highways to people who DON’T necessarily use them would like this plan. And anyone who wants to stick it to uppity greenies for buying hybrids would love this plan. That is about the ONLY rational explanation for the $100/yr hybrid fee, once you have abolished the gas tax and declared that no long will roads be funding by users fees by the people who actually use them. It’s like revenge on those snobs who dare to pollute less, because HEY, pollution is GOOD.
So which of the above 3 really floats your boat, Chuck. Or is is all three? Or have you not bothered to consider the implication of this set of gimmicks? We’re dying to know!
well,
I fully realize that I am likely only scratching the surface, but, while we are alive:
we’ve got hotel taxes.
we’ve got meals taxes.
we’ve got telephone taxes.
we’ve got various utility taxes.
we’ve got sales taxes
we’ve got “food” sales taxes
we’ve got real estate taxes.
we’ve got personal proprty taxes.
we’ve got medical device taxes.
we’ve got business personal property taxes.
we’ve got house-buyin’ taxes.
we’ve got house-sellin’ taxes.
we’ve got FICA taxes.
we’ve got Medicare taxes.
we’ve got gasoline taxes.
we’ve got dividend taxes.
we’ve got capital gains taxes.
we’ve got income taxes
Then, after we die, we’ve got estate taxes.
Personally, I’d like to see some more common sense applied to our taxs, so that we get to gain a better perspective on exactly how much largess we send to the gov’mint every day, month, year, and life-time.
I support McDonnell’s efforts to eliminate one tax, and send the bucks to the general fund, and let the politicians deal with how to allocate it. Afterall, it’s their job to make the tough choices.
Sheesh.
Sweet. So this is just like the lottery screw-job.
That’s awesome – just really, really awesome. Let’s consolidate transportation, education and everything else into one big pot, to be redistributed at a whim. Now we can have buses full of undereducated kids who can’t read or write a coherent sentence plunging into giant potholes on the highway. It’s interesting how we can be shown the numbers of what it’ll “save” us over ten years but the hemming and hawing commence when you ask for the numbers showing how transportation funding will actually increase over the next decade (“That will be decided as biennial budgets are passed, so there’s no definitive answer as yet.”). Way to go, Virginia – aim low and pray to God you fail upwards. Great plan.
Long live the Communistwealth.
Re: Dan Casey @ 1:16 pm
Yes, Chuck. Raise the gas tax. It’s the simplest, fairest and most direct way to raise transportation revenue — 11 percent of which would come from out-of-state gas buyers. You just don’t get that, do you?
——————
Once again we agree. Raise the gas tax.
In my experience conservatives, in Virginia, often hype “user fees” (or forms of use taxes under another name, in order to avoid “raising taxes”) — save meal taxes and gasoline tax. Think the old “I don’t have kids in school…” or “Why should my income be taxed to provide…” or “Build toll roads”, or “We need paid parking on public streets, or “Increase taxes on the use of public transit”, etc.
IMHO, the whole mess is classic NIMBY and/or WYSDWYS — or in other words “It is all about me.”
It is interesting that the left tends to do the same NIMBY and/or WYSDWYS, taking the opposite direction on such issues.
FWIIW, your “11 percent of which would come from out-of-state gas buyers” might well drop as folk fill up before entering a higher taxes gas state. I travel to WVA quite often and always top-off before entering WVA. And there tends to be a disproportionate representation of WVA and OH vehicles filling up just over the line. Ditto going and coming from NC & MD. Factor in 18-wheelers doing the same and I would expect a reduction in that 11%.
BTW check out: http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-overview/industry-economics/~/media/files/statistics/gasoline-diesel-summary.ashx
The savings for the average family with the elimination of the fuel/sales tax on gasoline – as proposed by our illustrious governor – according to a news report on WDBJ, is $87 per year. Without doing any math, I would assume the impact of that additional .8% added to the sales tax will be far greater than the projected fuel tax saving of $87.
another scam just like the car tax.. The ever popular financial/revenue shell game except there is NO pea. I am heartily sick and tired of all the contortions done so as not to utter the T word. I am frustrated with all the ” we did not raise your taxes” chest beating when in fact our pockets get picked every day. ALL money paid for public use is a tax. This fiction that fees, licenses, tolls etc are some how not taxes needs to stop. (toll roads are a stupid, unnecessarily complicated , expensive, and outdated notion and a mere band aid)
This, like all plans in recent years, is flawed from the start because there is no transparency as to real costs. Cutting taxes
NEVER saves money. It merely shifts costs, hidden or otherwise, some where else whether it is out of pocket payments for reduced services, robbing Peter to pay Paul, or increasing all the nickle and dime nonsense on all the countless smaller fees etc.
Perhaps it is a ploy to get more tourinjsts herej will add more wear and tear on the roads and not have to pay a penny for their efforts. One of the many Unintended consequences not thought of?
The state taxation system needs a complete overhaul. This will not fix anything if other government services continue to suffer along with future transportation diversification.
“we’ve got hotel taxes.
we’ve got meals taxes.
we’ve got telephone taxes.
we’ve got various utility taxes.
we’ve got sales taxes
we’ve got “food” sales taxes
we’ve got real estate taxes.
we’ve got personal proprty taxes.
we’ve got medical device taxes.
we’ve got business personal property taxes.
we’ve got house-buyin’ taxes.
we’ve got house-sellin’ taxes.
we’ve got FICA taxes.
we’ve got Medicare taxes.
we’ve got gasoline taxes.
we’ve got dividend taxes.
we’ve got capital gains taxes.
we’ve got income taxes”
–Comment by Frank
Frank, I know you didn’t intend it, but this blog owes you a debt of gratitude for so ably stomping to bits a favorite meme repeated ad nauseum by some RWer mergatroids here — that the poor pay no taxes. They pay almost ALL the taxes you listed, and because those taxes are regressive (and, in the case of FICA taxes doubly regressive), it’s a sure bet that they pay a higher percentage of their income in those taxes than the rich do.
On behalf of the blog, thank you.
I would personally benefit from McDonnell’s proposal, but don’t agree with it. In general, I prefer taxes based on consumption. One unintened, but slam-dunk guaranteed consequense is what would happen in my hometown of Bluefield. Being right on the state line, the West Virginia residents would fill up in Virginia and an incentive that big might well put the WV gas stations out of business. Further accelerating Bluefield WV’s demise.
Those who use the product and the infrastructure such taxes support are the ones who should pay the bill. The article linked below discusses this on the federal level and the challenges we faced because we haven’t increased the federal fuel tax since the early 1990s. Virginia is in the same boat and the time has come not to do away with the tax but to increase it.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/18/opinion/tsay-gordon-gas-tax-myths/index.html
“Those who use the product and the infrastructure such taxes support are the ones who should pay the bill.”
–Comment by Ron
Correct! It’s the other side that’s saying, “Those of us who use the product and infrastructure are NOT necessarily the ones should pay the bill. We SHOULD NOT, do you get that? Because we’re selfish and stupid!”
you are SO welcome, dano.
I’m so glad you SPECIFICALLY brought up those dastardly ol’ FICA taxes.
You remember those, don’t you? Well, maybe you don’t, since all we heard from your ilk, led by your illustrious spokeman obama, was that “the rich don’t pay their fair share”, and, by golly, “we libs just aren’t gonna raise the taxes on the middle-class, or the working poor”! We heard that from you lib-hypocrites ad nauseum, month after month after month. Uh huh. Not once did your spokesman, obama, let the rest of you lemmings know what was in the cards, did he? Nope, he told you zip, zero, zilch, nada…about what he was gonna do. And as is your sad “no-thinking” process, YOU NEVER THOUGHT TO QUESTION HIM! I’m serious! Not one question was raised about that to obama by a lib-reporter!
Then, judgement day rolls around, and what did you lib-hypocrites do? YOU RAISED THE FICA TAX ON THE MIDDLE-CLASS AND WORKING POOR! You raised the taxes on someone earning $50k per year by about $1000 per year, or said another way which even you will understand, YOU LIBS REDUCED THE TAKE-HOME PAY OF THE MIDDLE-CLASS AND WORKING POOR BY ABOUT $25-$85/month. Ah, Dan, That’s not chump change.
The sad but true part of all that is, you hypocrite-libs NEVER told the middle class and working poor what you were willing to sacrifice just so you libs could get your political jollies by raising tax rates on the rich. I’m serious! I couldn’t make this up! The rich aren’t gonna be hurt at all by what you folks did to’em. And, the deficit won’t be helped by what you libs did to the rich. So, just what was it, again, that you lib-hypocrites accomplished, anyhow? Ahhh, you raised the tax rates on the rich. Well, whoopty do.
Furthermore, from the interviews you wrote about in today’s column, looks like you had to dig a bit to find someone who felt as you do concerning McDonnell’s tax plan. And, he was a gas retailor who you folks want to see go out of business anyhow! And yet, HE’S the one you have to lean on to get something for your, ah, opinion-journalist article!
“Then, judgement day rolls around, and what did you lib-hypocrites do? YOU RAISED THE FICA TAX ON THE MIDDLE-CLASS AND WORKING POOR! You raised the taxes on someone earning $50k per year by about $1000 per year, or said another way which even you will understand, YOU LIBS REDUCED THE TAKE-HOME PAY OF THE MIDDLE-CLASS AND WORKING POOR BY ABOUT $25-$85/month. Ah, Dan, That’s not chump change.”
Frank, you’re claiming “liberals” did this unilaterally.
That is false, like so much of the other stuff you write here. The House GOP voted for that sunset, too. I’m sure it was actually one they LIKED and didn’t want to take back, like the game they played with the Bush tax cuts.
Frank,
Ending the 2 year pass on the FICA tax was not part of the fiscal cliff negotiations. Republicans & Democrats realized it had to go back to the standard rates. Social Security can be made solvent for 75+ years by simply increasing the income subject to the FICA tax. Getting it to 90% of average annual wages, as was intended in the Ronald Reagan FICA tax increase, would subject the first $190K. That wouldn’t hurt anyone you are talking about.
Social Security is the easiest fix to be done of all the challenges we face at the federal level.
Frank – to get you up to a factual “speed” about the FICA increase you are griping about…
First this was part of the so called “Fiscal Cliff” legislation which was voted on and passed by both parties.
Second – Because the payroll tax holiday was not extended, and was never intended to be permanent, 2% more of paychecks are now going toward Social Security. For a total of 6.2%.
This new legislation returns the Social Security tax to what it used to be in 2008.
Nothing to do with your favorite bogeymen “libs”…
Ron,
I agree with what you say. I think NOT raising the FICA tax salary cap is NOT good thinking.
My point was, the year-end FICA tax increase was not part of ANY conversation. The only thing we heard out of lib-mouths was “make the rich pay more!”
And, many middle-class and working poor, the staple of democrat support, now get to hear ol’ Gomer Pyle saying, “surprise! surprise! surprise!”
That’s what I mean about lib-hypocrisy.
dan,
I’m saying that you libs did nothing to stop it. I’m saying that in order for libs to get republican support to raise tax rates on those earning over $400k, you libs agreed to NOT object to raising the FICA tax rate on the middle class and working poor. In fact, you libs never made any issue of it, period. When FICA was reduced, your spokesperson was front and center and all over the country proclaiming he was “reducing taxes” on the middle-class and working poor”. Yet, I never heard a peep out of your spokesperson when he nodded to Congress to raise those same taxes on the middle class and working poor.
Did you?
The “Payroll Tax Holiday” was a joke.
I believe the first year was “paid” for by debt and the 2012 extension was paid for by a fee on FHA mortgages initiated during 2012.
I forget the exact number but I believe for a $200k mortgage, the borrower would pay an extra $15-20 per month for the 30 year life of the loan.
The entire idea of cutting payroll taxes was very short term with minimal benefit and the financing was long term. The idea was horrible and was supported by representatives on both sides of the isle.
Frank,
The revision of the FICA rates to 2009 rates was no surprise. It was not discussed because everyone, Republicans & Democrats, knew it had to go back up. There was no tradeoff made. The fact that it was going up was well covered by all the news outlets.
Comment by Ron May — January 13, 2013 @ 8:04 pm
Damn it, Ron! Don’t confuse people with facts! What’s wrong with you? You’d better get back in line, buddy, or else. We, the people, only deal in propaganda, fear-mongering and finger-pointing. FICA is the least of our problems. What about the Muslim invasion, the men kicking down our doors demanding our guns and the overwhelming, ceaseless tyranny of that filthy Marxist, Muslim, socialist, communist, America-hating Obama and his oppressive administration? What about the terrorists and the coal industry-killing regulations? What about the cultural hegemony and systematic corruption, brainwashing and manipulation of our children, Ron? What about the environmentalists trying to kill our wasteful way of life so our ignorant, godless, illegitimate children might have a semi-livable planet after we’re all dead and dusty? Those hell-bound, unwashed, commie-loving liberals will NOT cease until everyone gets a little bit of everything and all games end in ties. It must be stopped.
It’s an unadulterated invasion of our wasteful, spoiled rotten, self-centered lives! I wanna be able to shoot black rhinos with a GE mini-gun from my moving, 33-inch tired 4×4 while dumping used motor oil into the watershed and eating blue whale steaks with a side of scrambled condor eggs! This is Amurica, damn it! FREEEEEEEEDOM!!! Are we really going to stand for this?
FICA… pfft.
Frank, in addition to (#17)Hillary and (#21)Ron’s clear and simple explanations, also understand that the FICA holiday was conceived as an economic stimulant during the worst of the Great Recession. Many “conservatives” opposed any stimulus, and many more sought to end them sooner than now. So making FICA your non-issue of the day leaves you yelling in an ignorant vacuum as much as all your others.
Looks like Suz..err..I mean Frank failed Government 101.
The decrease in the FICA tax was never designed for or meant to be a permanent change. It was temporary, for the purpose of putting a few more dollars into middle class budgets which would be spent, thus adding some stimulus to the economy. The degree of its success has yet to be analyzed, but the fact is that we now have 30 months of job growth instead of losing 750000 jobs per month. The President would have extended it for one more year, at the most but acceded to the demands of Republicans in order to accomplish a more important task, that of beginning to increase revenues as part of an overall plan of deficit reduction. The upper end tax increases are not THE answer but they are part of the answer and must be followed up with more revenue increases and targeted spending cuts, especially in the military budget and in social security and medicare reform to accomplish that goal over the long term. Frank’s misguided diatribe is not just wrong, it’s actually
just silliness.
J.M. White, if you have a 4×4 with 33 inch tires and a minigun, I am so jealous.
.
Are we really going to stand for this?
Comment by J.M. White — January 13, 2013 @ 8:50 pm
Nope, I’m going to go hide in my closet. Please call my boss and tell her I won’t be in tomorrow.
Miriam,
I’m with you. I think it was stupid to cut FICA in the first place.
And, if obama had any real thought for the middle-class and working poor, he could have pushed to increase the salary limits for FICA to cover the cost of leaving the rates for middle and low-income folks at their already reduced levels. But, nope! Restraining themselves for all of two years was about all obama and his fanatical lib tax-disciples could contain their zeal before they just had to begin, again, to take more of everyone’s money…even from the middle class and working poor. However, the libs kept a lid on the FICA tax being increased at year end…all we heard was “soak the rich”. HaHa. obama ended up joyfully shafting the typical low-information people who voted for him.
obama thought so much of the, ah, impact it would have on those folks that…. he ………..kept real quiet about it, didn’t he?
He proposed to “tax only the richest among us…those that can afford it, like me”.
HaHa. Yeah. Right.
suzie’s posting hero, Frank, shows his complete lack of understanding on yet ANOTHER issue. SUZIE, Frank needs propping up again. Hurry before he falls over.
hey Big Momma, my response to Miriam above should have been addressed to you. I’m with you on FICA.
Miriam, I posted to you by mistake.
hey ron, jm, dan, debbie, and all you other libs out there (wow, i feel sooo much better, now!),
When did obama inform his low-information supporters that their FICA taxes were being increased, huh?
Did he do so by responding to a question at a news conference? …Nope.
Did he do so by discussing it at any of his campaign speeches? …Nope.
Did the newsmedia make it a feature of any newscast? …Nope.
Did his press secretary discuss it at a press conference? …Nope.
Did Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid mention the FICA was going up? …Nope.
Did ol’ Dano mention it in any of his columns? Ahhh, …nope.
All we heard about any taxes at all was that the rich were going to “pay their fair share”. What a joke. Except, the joke is on those who are getting smacked with a FICA increase after all they’ve heard from obama and his libs was that it was “the rich who were gonna get soaked”.
g’ night, John-boy.
Stop posting, Frank. Every other post is a screw up. Take a break.
“Hey ron, jm, dan, debbie, and all you other libs out there (wow, i feel sooo much better, now!),
When did obama inform his low-information supporters that their FICA taxes were being increased, huh?”
–Comment by Frank
When he ANNOUNCED it, 2 years ago Frank. He said then it was a temporary 2-year cut. It was necessary stimulus for the economy and he won GOP leaders’ support for it. It was passed as a temporary 2-year measure. The main difference between Obama and the GOP is that he stuck to his guns with the “temporary” part of it. The GOP passed temporary tax cuts (the Bush tax cuts) and then they tried to renege on the temporary part. They STILL want to renege on the temporary part.
Frank,
What Kristen said in #32 x 2.
Stop already; you’re making a fool of yourself. In spite of your many recent attempts, the law of gravity still prevents you from being able to pee up a rope.
That’s funny, Frank. I remember very specifically being told that everyone would have to sacrifice to get out of this hole we’re in. Well, I was either told that or I used some common sense and figured it out on my own. I mean, whoa, man, you mean I might have to tighten my belt to help get my country out of an untenable situation? Heavy, dude, but I’m willing to give it a shot.
I’m a [copulatory adjective] burn-out and I’m still smart enough to figure that [excretory adjective] out on my own, man.
…
No offense. I’ve had too much to drink. G’night, Gonzos.
Stevec@11:29
Not ” making a fool of himself”. Just removing any doubt
31.hey ron, jm, dan, debbie, and all you other libs out there (wow, i feel sooo much better, now!),
When did obama inform his low-information supporters that their FICA taxes were being increased, huh?
From the content of his posts it is quite clear that the real “low in formation” voters out there were Romney supporters like Frank.
Frank, I hope you got that knock out of your knickers before you put them on this morning. Have a good day!
While the discussion??? of Federal fiscal and budgetary issues is amusing at best, the question at hand concerns the State of Virginia’s specific taxation smoke and mirrors proposal. What does Obama have to do with a STATE tax. Virginia has been a bell weather for national political trends, some unfortunately counterproductive,. But perhaps there is a glimmer of hope that Virginia could set some meaningful policies. ????
Virginia is a relatively wealthy state but ranks well below the national average in some categories. What is with the POINT 8 %? Round it up to one percent, ( easier to figure out) and start funding state services properly. We nedd to do
more than just basic fixing of roads.. We need to invest in the future and I see none of that, state or federal. We had a visionary leader in the former Governor Godwin who instituted the sales tax to fund a community college system in this state which has more than paid for itself. where has that vision gone?
Stop playing the games with budget issues, simplify the system, and set the state on a sound course for the future. That means serious cooperation from all involved. Instead we get blather and bluster, as evidenced right here on this blog. Costs are more than just monetary. We all pay one way or another. I can’t even get my rural road frontage mowed with any consistency. I have small trees starting to grow in a deep drainage ditch. The state no longer mows the entire right of way,. They just make one pass along the road edge. The rest can grow up until you complain that the line of sight is compromised and them MAYBE it gets done properly. All that goes to saving money which in the long run it does not. I can’t, nor should I have to, get out there and do the state’s job. false economy!!!!!
Stop all the useless finger pointing and actually DO the math. Clean up the tax system. Make taxes up front instead of all the creeping fees, licenses, etc. This latest proposal is just more Smoke and Mirrors and does little to modernize Transportation. ( which is more than just roads!!!!) in tis state. We need a sound answer to all transportation options and this does not get us there. Penny wise Pound foolish.
PS. Even if you don’t use the roads, most of what you buy comes in on roads. A gas tax may be part of the solution or it may be outdated, perhaps a mileage based use fee as is done elsewhere.. But all the hollering gets us NOWHERE
Hey, Frank, are you REALLY criticizing Dems for being more honest and better at sticking to their word than Repubs?
yep. not one could give an answer other than their typical bs.
When did obama inform his low-information supporters that their FICA taxes were being increased, huh?
Funny, every news article I read that detailed the plans from Obama, the Democrats, and the Republicans…including both House and Senate versions, all mentioned that the FICA taxes were returning to their previous levels under ALL plans being evaluated.
I enjoyed the 4-year tax break we had…beginning with the Making Work Pay tax credit, and then carrying into the 2-year FICA withholding reduction. Our taxes are basically back to where they were when Bush was still in office.
I had a recent Facebook discussion over the FICA tax so many are complaining about. This was instructive: “The FICA rate went up to 6.2% in 1990. That is the same rate we paid until 2010. In 2010 the Tax Relief bill was passed. In the Senate the bill was passed by 43 Dems and 37 Reps. and 1 independent. There were 13 Dem Nays, 5 Rep Nays, and 1 independent nay. So in the Senate there were more Dems against this than Reps.
In the House there were 139 Dems, and 138 Reps who voted for this tax relief bill. There were 112 Dems against it, and 36 Reps. against it. Again…more Dems than Republicans against this bill.”
Big Momma is right, BOTH parties passed the bill and every worker had the two year “holiday” tax break. And yes, we will all pay for it. In the end, we always do. So please stop whining.
There are indeed a myriad of taxes we all or many of us as well as businesses pay. This list is 100:
Personal/Consumer Taxes & Fees:
Federal income tax
State income tax
Local income tax
Employee social security tax (your employer pays the other half)
Employee Medicare tax (your employer pays the other half)
Property taxes
Road toll charges
State sales tax
Driver’s license renewal fee
TV Cable/Satellite fees & taxes
Federal telephone surtax, excise tax, and universal surcharge
State telephone excise tax and surcharge
Telephone minimum usage and recurring/nonrecurring charges tax
Gas/electric bill fees & taxes
Water/sewer fees & taxes
Cigarette tax
Alcohol tax
Federal gasoline tax
State gasoline tax
Local gasoline tax
Federal inheritance tax
State inheritance tax
Gift tax
Bridge toll charges
Marriage license
Hunting license
Fishing license
Bike license fee
Dog permit/license
State park permit
Watercraft registration & licensing fees
Sports stadium tax
Bike/nature trail permit
Court case filing fee
Retirement account early withdrawal penalty
Individual health insurance mandate tax
Hotel stay tax
Plastic surgery surcharge
Soda/fatty-food tax
Air transportation tax
Electronic transmission of tax return fees
Passport application/renewal fee
Luxury & gas-guzzler car taxes
New car surcharge
License plate and car ownership transfer taxes
Yacht and luxury boat taxes
Jewelry taxes & surcharges
State/local school tax
Recreational vehicle tax
Special assessments for road repairs or construction
Gun ownership permit
Kiddie tax (IRS form 8615)
Fuel gross receipts tax
Waste Management tax
Oil and gas assessment tax
Use taxes (on out-of-state purchase)
IRA rollover tax/withdrawal penalties
Tax on non-qualified health saving account distributions
Individual and small business surtax (page 336 of Obamacare)
Estimated income tax underpayment penalty
Alternative Minimum Tax on income
Business Taxes & Fees:
Federal corporate income tax
State corporate income tax
Tax registration fee for new businesses
Employer social security tax
Employer Medicare tax
Federal unemployment tax
State unemployment tax
Business registration renewal tax
Worker’s compensation tax
Tax on imported/exported goods
Oil storage/inspection fees
Employer health insurance mandate tax
Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals (page 2001/Sec. 9007 of Obamacare)
Tax on Innovator Drug Companies (Page 2010/Sec. 9008 of Obamacare)
Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers (Page 2020/Sec. 9009 of Obamacare)
Tax on Health Insurers (Page 2026/Sec. 9010 of Obamacare)
Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans, i.e. “Cadillac” plans
Tax on indoor tanning services
Utility users tax
Internet transaction fee (passed in California; being considered in other states and at federal level)
Professional license fee (accountants, lawyers, barbers, dentists, plumbers, etc.)
Franchise business tax
Tourism and concession license fee
Wiring inspection fees
Household employment tax
Biodiesel fuel tax
FDIC tax (insurance premium on bank deposits)
Electronic waste recycling fee
Hazardous material disposal fee
Food & beverage license fee
Estimated income tax underpayment penalty
Building/construction permit
Zoning permit
Fire inspection fee
Well permit tax
Sales and Use tax seller’s permit
Commercial driver’s license fee
Bank ATM transaction tax”
Occupation taxes and fees (annual charges required for a host of professions)
http://www.balancedpolitics.org/editorials/100_taxes_you_pay.htm
Taxes is a fascinating subject and you can make the statistics say a lot of things. What you cannot do, is get blood out of a turnip.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/how-we-pay-taxes-11-charts/255954/
We do not ALL pay them ALL but we ALL pay some of them. The idea that no one pays anything is ludicrous. The idea that consumers are not critical to our economy is ludicrous. The idea that low paying jobs are ever going to be the solution is ludicrous. The idea that the poor are the problem, is ludicrous.
So what did the FICA reduction mean in terms of real money?
The “federal government general revenues are funded to a large extent with debt, which means we actually borrowed the money to fund our own FICA tax cut. The two-year cost for having reduced the FICA payroll tax to 4.2 percent from 6.2 percent was $240 billion not including interest for who knows how many years.
The tax cut amounted to $50 per month for a wage earner making $30,000 a year, $100 a month in savings for earners making $60,000 and $150 a month for wages of $90,000 per year.
Both parties in Congress have let this tax cut quietly die because Democrats insist that it was to be only a temporary measure and Republicans, unenthused with the program overall, are not in favor of additional entitlements.”
http://tinyurl.com/aljocl8
So Frank, are you telling us that when you were whining about the deficit or debt, you really didn’t care about them? Because you evidently don’t mind the additional $240 billion continually be added to our borrowing…
rather than say that the problem is “the rich”, or “the poor”, i’d say the problems are “the spending” and “the taxing”.
“rather than say that the problem is “the rich”, or “the poor”, i’d say the problems are “the spending” and “the taxing”.
–Comment by Frank
Frank, in the 1930s a majority of the elected leaders of this nation enacted Social Security. In the 1960s, they enacted Medicare. In the 1990s, they amended Medicare to include coverage for medicine. Over many decades, they’ve also decided to pursue a policy that makes the United States the No. 1 military power on Earth, and we now spend more on defense than all the other industrialized nations combined. Those are the three (by far) dominant categories of spending, and they are all constitutional and legal.
If not through taxation, how do you proposed we fund these things? By conquering other nations and raping them of their wealth?
There are basically 3 categories of people who objected to the temporary FICA cut.
One is the rich. Because they pay a smaller portion of their income in FICA taxes than, say, your average order taker at McDonalds, they stood to realize the least annual gain from it on a percentage basis.
The second is the dumb. They didn’t grasp the trouble the economy was in, and they didn’t realize that almost all the people who got the cut would spend the money — i.e. put it back into the economy — and that the additional spending would help the economy, which it did.
I don’t know how to describe the third, exactly. They aren’t necessarily dumb, and they aren’t necessarily rich, but they aren’t poor either and they don’t have blazing IQs. Perhaps their entire world is so colored by ideology that they can’t see the bigger picture.
Anybody want to take a stab at coming up with a better articulation of the 3rd group?
Wouldn’t Group 3 be the Tea Party?
I’d say the third group be designated:
The dogmatic- FoxNews watching- Limbaugh listening – vote against their own interest – living in their own hypnotic state of ignorance group..
soo, ol’ dano, have ya noticed any comments on social media concerning the FICA tax increase? What category do you place those folks in (the ones who are commenting)?
hey dano at 11:02, glad you asked.
i suggest we grow the economy by: lowering the tax rates on everyone; lower the corporate tax; increase the FICA salary cap to $200,000; give a tax holiday to persons and corporations who hold their cash over seas.
Then, increase the SS and Medicare retirement ages on a graduated basis up to 3 years for all folks under age 50; means test for Medicare Part A as well as for Medicare Part B premiums.
Then, tax the heck out of anti-stomach acid pills that will be in heavy demand by you libs as you watch the economy take off, more people get jobs (we’ll all hear the good ol’ “Silent Scream” on that, won’t we), and America is strong once again.
soo, frank, have you noticed all those pictures of Grumpy Cat on social media?
“i suggest we grow the economy by:
1) lowering the tax rates on everyone;’
2) lower the corporate tax;
3) increase the FICA salary cap to $200,000;
4) give a tax holiday to persons and corporations who hold their cash over seas.”
–Comment by Frank
Frank, we should definitely try No. 3, or remove the cap altogether. We already tried 1 and 2 during the Bush administration and by now we should realized they don’t work — they’re merely a sop to the rich. No. 4 is little more than BS by corporations who don’t want to pay taxes on income they should.
Most of the people commenting on Facebook about FICA, are clueless.
“give a tax holiday to persons and corporations who hold their cash over seas.”
Um…reward the offshoring of cash? Frank, do you have any remote idea what you’re talking about?
Debbie,
No haven’t seen any grumpy cat on social media. Got one at home, however. She doesn’t like the dog.
Certaintly and for sure, the folks commenting on social media about their FICA taxes going up are “clueless”, which is exactly why I labeled them “low-information voters”.
Debbie, that’s been my general observation. BTW, I enjoy those Grumpy Cat photos.
Debbie, that is very true.
Frank, the only thing you have proven, beyond doubt too, is that you do not pay any attention to what is going on, rely on specious sources and willingly spread disinformation (aka, lies). Wow, we are all shocked.
1) If taxes were the problem, sure lowering the tax rates might help. Taxes are not the problem. To few jobs and too many low wage jobs are.
2) If the corporate taxes were too high, lowering the corporate tax rate might help. Corporate tax rates are not the problem, some even manage to make a profit and pay none.
3) There should be no FICA cap, it should apply to all wages.
4) Why do I think “give a tax holiday to persons and corporations who hold their cash over seas.” is a boon to whatever Frank does for a living? Do you maybe mean give “tax amnesty” to those skirting our tax system while enjoying their life here?
…not trying to prove anything, sandi. …just putting forth information which i already know will fall on deaf ears, blind eyes, and little or no-brained libs. lemmings mindlessly follow their leader, and dutifully ignore any which point out the looming the cliff that their leader is gonna get’em all to take a flying leap off of.
…libs = lemmings…
hey Kristen,
yes, facebook folks who remember obama saying like a gazillion times during the campaign that he would NOT raise taxes on anybody but the rich are clueless. they had NO clue that the tax reduction which obama gave them 2 years ago was limited to only 2 years. the only sound they have bouncing around in their pointy heads is obama saying, “only the rich will face increased taxes”. then, those pointy-headed clueless libs are left with a light-bulb going off after they get their first paychecks for 2013…and their taxes jumped per month resulting in less take-home pay to the tune of $25-$85/month. That ain’t chump change, and, they weren’t expecting it, because their lemming leader kept it quiet during the campaign, didn’t he?
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!
sandi, good catch!
yes, that word “amnesty” was the one i was looking for! well done.
gee, you, dano, and i are even able to find some common ground. holy cow!
“yes, facebook folks who remember obama saying like a gazillion times during the campaign that he would NOT raise taxes on anybody but the rich are clueless. they had NO clue that the tax reduction which obama gave them 2 years ago was limited to only 2 years. the only sound they have bouncing around in their pointy heads is obama saying, “only the rich will face increased taxes”. then, those pointy-headed clueless libs are left with a light-bulb going off after they get their first paychecks for 2013…and their taxes jumped per month resulting in less take-home pay to the tune of $25-$85/month. That ain’t chump change, and, they weren’t expecting it, because their lemming leader kept it quiet during the campaign, didn’t he?
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!”
–Comment by Frank
As to the facts of what happened and the chronology, this is about as total a misstatement of what happened as it could be.
Frank, you’re one of those know-nothings you’re crowing about. But you don’t realize that, do you?
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! (NOT — given that it comes from Frank).
Other John, I enjoy them too. I enjoyed the Elf on a Shelf pics during Christmas, too.
The gov’t has no intention of giving a tax holiday to those hidng their money overseas. On the contrary, they are tracking them down.
Dan, re: 4:05
Surely you would admit that most folks have no idea of the deductions from their check; be it fed, state fica, (ika, lika, noa, mora).
They just look at what they brought home this week and see that it is less than it was last week.
If the R’s had any sense they would be playing this for all it’s worth; telling these same “intelligent” obama voters that “sometimes, you get what you asked for”.
Interestingly, these folk can multiply and are figuring out they now have 1k (or more) less money to spend this year. I am so tired of hearing “I thought the tax increases was only on the “rich”” , I just tell them “congratulations”.
Election day should be moved to April 16th.
Debbie,
I would be willing to consider reducing the corporate tax rate to somewhere between 25-28% if most tax expenditures for corporations be ended. I would also do away with the IRS exemption that permits those corporations to hide $1.5 trillion in earnings overseas.
I agree, Ron.
Mike O, the Republicans did nothing to stop the FICA increase. There were no discussions, they knew it was going back up to the previous rate. It was a bipartisan deal. The Republicans could play it, but they would be lying with every word.
hey dano,
Soooo, why don’t you lay out the, uh, “facts” you say i got wrong.
Wingnuts bitch because Social Security is going bankrupt, then they bitch when you raise the withholding to help keep it solvent. I’m sensing a pattern here.
Debbie,
You are correct. The Republicans didn’t do anything to stop the increase in FICA. I think they should have. So should have the fearless leader of the libs, and his senate henchman, harry reid.
However, it was not the Republicans who full-throatedly carped about “not increasing taxes on the middle class and the working poor” throughout the 2012 campaign. That statement was spouted ad nauseum by obama and reid. So, those two and the libs are easily associated with the FICA increase. And, people kinda know that ol’ obama is for increasing taxes, and that the Republicans are for, ah, DECREASING taxes, ya know?
I think you folks should wear badges of “honor”, saying, YES! It was us, the LIBS! that raised your taxes! Please tell us THANK YOU, ’cause it was for your own good! WE know how to spend your hard-earned money better than YOU do!
Just a curiosity, but if as you say the republicans would be lying about it if they “played” it, does that not mean that the libs were ostensibly telling the truth, in that they WANTED to raise the FICA taxes, and they did?
You can’t have it both ways.
Frank is just another right-wing parrot. Only dumber.
Frank: It’s your mentality and those like you that have driven people like me away from the Republican party in droves. Your willingness to continue a convoluted stream of the illogical reeks of insanity. You like to point out that liberals are feeding at the trough of their masters, yet you fail to see the irony of the fallow feed-lot in which you are imprisoned. The horn sounds and you take your place on the feeding line. You feast on that poison with an almost religious fervor and then rush out to attempt to regurgitate it to people who already know it’s rancid, bitter taste and want nothing to do with it.
Anyone with common sense knew from the beginning that the FICA reduction was temporary. It was an idiotic idea in the first place and we all got duped by our respective representatives, both (R) and (D). We’ve known for years that Social Security was in trouble. Again, it’s more of this untenable BS of taking specifically allocated funds into the general fund so they can be raped and pillaged for pet projects. The bunch of geniuses that we all hired decided the next best course of action was to reduce the specifically acquired funds on top of writing IOUs to cover money they’ve been borrowing. If the politicians had kept their filthy hands off of the SSA’s (read: our) money in the first place, it could’ve remained solvent indefinitely. After all, why fund the world’s most expensive military from just one pot?
You can also think of it this way: We were refusing to fix a roof leak in order to spend our money on fancy electronics. In fact, we were tearing off additional shingles and selling them so we could get even more stuff. Well, the inevitable monsoonal rains came and, surprise of all surprises, the roof fell in. At least we still have our fancy electronics, right? Except that the rains haven’t stopped and electronics don’t work too well when submerged. Now, we’ve wised up enough to throw a tarp over the hole but we still need a roofer. For the time being, we’re starting to dry out.
I’m sorry that you were too blinded by partisanship to understand the long-term implications (and always-temporary status) of the FICA reduction. The liberals didn’t do that to you; that’s a self-inflicted wound.
Meanwhile, while you were all shouting at and over each other about the coming Obamapocalypse instead of questioning the motives of your own masters, there were many of us who jumped from your doomed ship and paddled back to port. The lifeboats are still being lowered, man… Only fools and the foolishly loyal will ride that vessel to the bottom, and ride it they will. Quit listening to the band play on and get in the dinghy before it’s too late.
Frank,
The FICA reduction was always meant to be temporary. Always, Frank. As J.M. White said, lowering the rate was an idiotic idea. The mass howling about it on Facebook appears to have stopped, once the clueless learned the truth.
Are FICA taxes your howl du jour this week, Frank?
Ya’ll don’t put too much effort trying to confuse Frank with those “fact” things; he’ll only dig in his heels and do his little hook, line and sinker shtick like an obstinate child. Getting Frank to agree that he’s wrong as easy as getting congress to agree the President is right.
Wingnuts bitch because Social Security is going bankrupt, then they bitch when you raise the withholding to help keep it solvent. I’m sensing a pattern here.
Comment by Art Hill — January 14, 2013 @ 9:17 pm
Well said, Art.
The only people I hear bitching about FICA taxes are the poor. Of course, they are always whining about money.
hey JM,
Whatever. My point remains, the leader of the lemmings railed against “the rich” through-out his 2012 campaign. He “promised” that “only the rich’s taxes” would go up. He promised that taxes WOULD NOT INCREASE on the middle class and the working poor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you and i and bobby sue knew that FICA was going back up. But we ALSO knew that obama was pulling a slight of hand when he kept saying “taxes would only go up on the rich,” ’cause we knew that FICA was gonna go up, and it was gonna smack the working poor and middle class…many of whom are low-information obama-voter’s. The tax-rate increase obama put on “the rich” ain’t gonna touch those folks nearly as much as losing $25-$85 per month will “touch” the middle class and working poor, and you know it.
Yep. WE knew it. The folks didn’t. They took obama at his word, and voted for obama, and now as of January 1, 2013, are absorbing reduced take-home pay to the tune of about $25-$85 per month (i capped the annual salaries at $50k), because of obama.
By the way, this “slight of hand” ain’t nuthin’. Wait till you see what happens with the implementation of obama’s ACA.
hey Debbie,
Yeah, those clueless are sure stupid, aren’t they. Ya reckon they voted for obama? And, they still get to appreciate losing $25-$85 of their hard-earned bucks per month to the tax-man….all the while being CERTAIN that they only heard obama crow about “the rich’s” taxes going up.
Sheesh.
I haven’t heard a single person IRL talk about FICA, at all, not once. It’s an RW media/internet driven meme.
To follow up…Because Obama invented FICA. And no one ever not ever paid income tax before Obama. And he invented all the taxes while simultanously inventing the deficit. Hard worker, that Obama, out inventing things.
I heard he also performs abortions in the Lincoln bedroom in his spare time, Kristen.
“And, they still get to appreciate losing $25-$85 of their hard-earned bucks per month to the tax-man”
Which also would have happened under Romney, but you didn’t hear him telling the masses that during the campaign, either, did you? Of course you didn’t.
As both Kristen and I have pointed out now, you’re merely parroting right-wing nonsense.
“Whatever.”
Translation: J.M. nailed my butt to the wall on that one.
Frank, stop posting nonsense. This was on our internal website, the 1st week of January. “The Employee Social Security tax rate increases from 4.2 percent to 6.2 percent for 2013. This temporary rate reduction was first implemented in 2011 and extended through 2012. Unless congress extends the reduction beyond the Dec 31, 2012, expiration date, the rate will revert to the original rate of 6.2 percent.”
What part of “temporary” and “revert to the original rate” do you not understand? We are back to paying the rate we’ve always paid, with the exception of 2011 thru 2012.
You’re beating a nonexistent horse, Frank. Not a dead horse, Frank, a nonexistent one. Time to find a new fixation.
…everytime obama said, “i will not allow taxes to go up on the poor and middle-class” …he was lying.
I know of one person who was griping about the FICA taxes the day our paychecks showed up. Between his current position, his wife’s income, and his full retirement pension from a previous career…they earn well into the 6-figures.
And BTW, all the RW whiners haven’t thanked the President for saving them money for the past two years during the tax holiday…On average, middle-income families have enjoyed around $1,000 in additional income from the payroll tax cut per year.
So in those two years the average taxpayer collected an extra $2000. Why don’t I hear accolades for those savings? Nooooo, it is all about carping and harping on whatever this President does…
can you hear me Frank?
J M White, heck yes. That’s what pushed me over to his side! Dude is versatile!