Guest Post: Is a more civil conversation even possible?
Note from Dan: The following guest post is from Gina Holmes, a nurse, PR professional and writer whose third novel, Wings of Glass, will be published next month. I wrote about her struggles breaking into publishing back in 2009.
By Gina Holmes
Hey Dan! It was so good to connect with you at the Roanoke Regional Writers Conference.
I was thinking how funny it is that I like you so much, and, if you haven’t guessed, you and I sit on opposite ends of the political fence, though I try not to be too political since that’s not really my strong suit. I’m not a fan these days of many of those debates for personal reasons.
Anywho, you might consider doing a column on this subject matter. I think it would be fascinating.
From gun control to Jerry Falwell, I’m guessing that having a two-sided courteous discussion would bring people on both sides to open their eyes a little more and least consider the other side’s viewpoint. Because at least half your readership in this Bible belt-area are Republicans and conservatives, I think showing that you’re good at listening (and I know you are, 
which is what makes you a great reporter) as well as offering opinions would be really cool for lack of a better word on this bleary-eyed morning.
It could even become a regular feature. Sort of a he-said, she-said deal.
If you want a name of the perfect person to counter you, I think I know one. She’s a local writer. I’m putting together a nonfiction proposal with her basically on biblical promises for women. She’s smart as a whip, conservative but not in an obnoxious sort of way. Great writer.
Anyway, just throwing out an idea of depolarization 
Thanks again, Dan for the wonderful class at the writers conference. Your stories are always a highlight. Hope to see you next year.
Now I’m going to go and complain to the NRA about you!
February 6, 2013 - 6:00 AM
I think danny is afraid of her…lol
As a non-religious conservative, I wish that the Republicans would distance themselves from the religous right (which it sounds like Ms. Holmes’ recommendation would be).
Dear Republican Party,
Let’s preach Liberty. Economic and Social Liberty. Stay out of people’s lives and let them be who they are. Spread the word on the benefits of our conservative fiscal policies on the national economy. Supply-side economics work; spread the message. Please, distance yourselves from the religious faction of the party. Abortion, same-sex marriage, etc. is not how you win elections, not today. And regardless of whether you agree or disagree with it, default back to Liberty. “Freedom is seldom found
by beating someone to the ground”
You have a certain poster who clams she wants a more civil tone and championed it but she immediately turns around and refers to people as being “bigoted, ignorant and judgmental”.
Civility is impossible so long as people only expect it from others and can’t see incivility in themselves.
And it helps if the blog owner leads the way.
I’m guessing that having a two-sided courteous discussion would bring people on both sides to open their eyes a little more and least consider the other side’s viewpoint
We’ve tried that, Gina. The blog’s leftwingers have no interest in civil discussion.
No, a more civil conversation is truly not possible. First due to the crowd that is attracted to blogging and second because strongly held opinions are defended strongly as well. People, as a rule, are not respectful of those they believe are wrong, most especially if they believe they are willfully wrong as is often the case in politics.
Sure a bunch of truly moderate, not too political, politics not really their “strong suit” folks could be cordial, bash all sides and have a conversation like she believes would be productive, except it wouldn’t.
To have a real opinion on anything political, takes knowledge, research, paying attention for more than one administration, honesty and integrity. Having all that, you will form opinions and generally strong opinions. You can also form opinions, as the right wing does all too often, by wearing blinders and only seeing what is laid in front of you and only considering what is laid out for you, which leads to the accusation of “parroting”. Religion has clouded the field of vision for many on the right as well.
What makes me laugh are those who believe that Virginia liberals are the typical wild eyed leftists and that the Roanoke Times is “a liberal rag”. Both accusations only prove you have no clue what a wild eyed leftist is and have never read a liberal rag. Dead give away.
People who KNOW that politics affects our everyday lives cannot fathom anyone not being “political”. We do not understand how anyone can live uninformed or disengaged from such important matters and most of all, we cannot imagine thinking that “they’re all the same”.
Strong opinions do not have to be expressed without civility, that is a choice and a bridge that is hard to retract once extended.
Nice, Sandi, and as you and I have discussed, what I think would bring much more civility to the blog discussion is being required to use your full name…even some how of having that name verified as a real person. Because if it were to become a rule of using a full name, many would simply make one up, like William J. Brown and that person might even be a woman, or vise versa.
“Fan” mail.
Mrs. Saunders,
I agree that it is hard to find a civil conversation within the blogging community. This is mostly due to the fact that the sensationalist with the wild ideas are the ones that get the most attention. So, while I may not always be civil, the purpose of my comments are to shape the opinions of the casual reader of the blog rather than the blogger and I need to get their attention.
Now getting to your accusation that right wing people have blinders on let me ask you this… What is your definition of fair share? What do you think the roads that the state builds are for? Have you ever ran a small business that has to put up with gov regs while trying to keep your employees and make a profit?
I find it interesting that many right wingers find the left media and strong opinions of those on that side of the fence hateful and bigoted, but it’s the same arguments on the left. We may never agree on everything or anything, but we can at least hear each other. You’ll never be listened to unless you’re willing to listen. I’ve found that to be true. We can say oh well, that’s just the way it is. People on the right, people on the left will never change, but it starts somewhere, with someone, why not you? Why not me? I say I’m not “political” not because I don’t care about those issues, I do very much, but because I don’t want to come at people with my strong opinions without hearing theirs. If someone comes at me right off the bat with a strong opinion about something, say gun control, or whatever, I will probably keep my opinions to myself because I don’t see them as someone who is going to listen to what I have to say anyway. This current rudeness and meanness on the internet has gotten out of hand. People say horrible things and really, it just makes them look bad. Calling someone else ignorant or bigoted makes the person making those statement look ignorant and bigoted usually. Thanks again Dan. Love having a kind, courteous back and forth. Iron sharpens iron.
Someone who calls themselves “Aryan” wanting to be taken seriously in discussion. Amusing.
Not everyone has anything that is worth “listening” to. People prove here daily that just because you hold an opinion, weakly or strongly, does not make it right. I am not under any obligation to respect an anonymous entity that I feel is ignorant, bigoted or just plain wrong. I owe a higher level of respect to anyone who puts their actual name on their posts, and those who actually offer some substance that is not silken insult, but respect is still earned.
If I call you ignorant and bigoted and you are not, yes that does indeed make me look ignorant and bigoted. If I am right when I make that accusation. That just makes me right.
You are free to respect or reject whatever you care to. That is a personal choice. I will not pretend to respect an opinion or position I feel does not deserve it. Not from anyone. Too much damage has been done in this nation by those self-righteous ignorant and bigoted people to let them come to the table as an equal partner.
Please Suzie, you remain the most polarizing, name calling, partisan and unyielding participant this blog has ever seen and you complain about others being “uncivil”? To claim the “leftwingers” here have no interest in civil discussion while you yourself have seldom engaged in it is shamelessly hypocritical, almost laughably so.
Obviously Ms. Holmes has met Dan who charmed her with his wit and smarts. Of course what she doesn’t know is that Dan’s trademark is the “provacateur” label which he so proudly wears and will never abandon. As long as this is Dan’s blog, there will be no “depolarization”!
Many of my opinions over the years, even strong ones have been changed or at least challenged by asking, “why do you feel that way?” If I were to come out and say I think abortion is legalized murder I would (and probably will now) get called a bunch of names. But if you were to ask me WHY I feel that way and actually listen, I may not change your mind, but you might at least see that that strong opinion is not motivated by hate or bigotry but by love. Assuming the best of people and showing that you at least heard them will make them more likely to hear you. That’s how change happens. No, not everyone wants to have their thoughts challenged, but c’est la vie. Are we so arrogant that we honestly think that only we are right, or 100% right? Dan mentioned that he thought I was probably a moderate. I never thought so but I thought about what he said and I think he’s right. I may be further to the right on the moderate scale than him (I know I am, ha!) but I know he’s intelligent and a good man and I assume when he has an opinion that his motivation is good even if I don’t agree. I think he assumes the same as me.
Yes, not really interested in listening to and seriously considering the notions that minorities and gays are somehow inferior, poor people morally defective parasites, and the interests of profit trump all other interests. If the belief that all people are of equal value is somehow “polarizing”…oh well. Happy to be polarized.
“Please Suzie, you remain the most polarizing, name calling, partisan and unyielding participant this blog has ever seen and you complain about others being “uncivil”?”
It’s part of her ever-revolving troll act.
You chose the screen name “Aryan” and expect “to shape the opinions of the casual reader of the blog”? Interesting approach.
I am at a real and sincere loss as to what “right wing people have blinders on” has to do with “fair share”, “the roads that the state builds”, or running “a small business that has to put up with gov regs…”. But then, that might explain why I see them as wearing blinders too.
Since time began, there has never been “fair share”. Someone always has more, does more, gains more, wins more, and the opposite of each as well. The elderly, the disabled, the over employed/compensated, the under employed/compensated. It is just to simplistic to speak in generalities of “fair share” and since the right wing is notorious for doing so ONLY in the context of the poor and “dependent” and virtually NEVER in the context of the rich and parasitic, that is just a meaningless question IMO.
I am fairly certain that the roads are built for commerce and transportation. Is there more to that question?
I actually have run a small business and what I know is that you have a product or service for sale and you factor in the expenses and the profits and hopefully the demand creates enough profit to cover the expenses. Taxes, employees, insurance, rent, power, advertising, regulations, overhead, are ALL expenses and obligations. Whining about one as opposed to the others strikes me as petty unless you can prove you are being discriminated against in some manner by any of them. No business is in business trying to keep employees. All business is in business to make a profit.
Wearing those right wing blinders IMO has many business folks concentrating so much on taxes and regulations that they do not take care of running the business. All business has regulation, taxes and obligation. Unless you get big enough not to. Like the old saying goes, “If you owe the bank $100, that’s your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that’s the bank’s problem.”
Gina Holmes, you participate in a blog over the period of several years and you get called name after name, have your home, your job, your intelligence and your integrity insulted, demeaned and trashed at every opportunity by a blogger hiding in the safety of internet anonymity and then tell me about listening and asking them why they hold an opinion and try to see the good and intelligence and motivation they have for their POV. I am no longer interested in trying with such people.
Sandi Saunders:
“You chose the screen name “Aryan” and expect “to shape the opinions of the casual reader of the blog”? Interesting approach.”
And then there’s this guy…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Foster
Gina, 20 years ago your views would have put you squarely in the heart of mainstream conservatism. The fact is, the entire political spectrum has shifted far to the right since then. The most liberal of the liberals of 20 years ago are either gone or they’re so far out of the mainstream now that they’re totally irrelevant. Former moderates are now the evil liberals.
Meanwhile, formerly mainstream conservatives are now highly suspect by today’s conservative movers and shakers. They’re either derisively referred to as RINOs (Republican in name only) or “liberals” and sometimes they’re called “commies.” And beyond that, that stretched-to-the-right spectrum has offshoots: social conservatives, libertarians, constitutionalists, and they often disagree with one another.
The “leaders” of the new far right have engaged in a propaganda campaign that encourages slogans, simplistic solutions and the demonization of political opponents at the expense of thought and common sense.
People think I’m a liberal because I favor some tax increases (such as: slightly higher taxes on income above $250k, and higher state gas taxes). But I’m against a general sales tax increase. Is that a liberal position? Or a conservative one? They also believe I’m anti-gun because I’m against laws that allow concealed carry permits for people who have never TOUCHED a handgun before (as Virginia’s law does), or because I’m against concealed carry in bars.
My positions are rooted much more firmly in pragmatism than anywhere else. I suspect you’re in the same boat, tho perhaps a little more to the right than me.
Sandi, I hear you. I’ve been called many names in my life and have had to retreat for a time to lick my wounds. Try writing books and then reading all the negative anonymous reviews of people not attacking your writing so much as your faith. It’s hurtful and really not fair. Anonymous attackers, to me, scream of cowardice. We’re all human after all and we all have feelings. I think in this anonymous internet age, people forget that. I can understand tuning out and it’s so hard to not go there, but I really think if we have something important to say, it’s the only way to be effective. Taking the high road when others aren’t goes against our human nature. I have a sharp tongue and a quick wit and when I can cut someone down to size quickly, it’s hard not to. Some people assume because you’re kind or don’t lash back, that you can’t. Real strength, in my humble opinion, lies in restraint when appropriate. It goes back to communication 101… What I’m hearing from you is … and I can understand or agree with this, but here’s where I’m coming from. The people who attack you probably aren’t going to ever hear you, because they don’t want to. Some people are terrified of having their beliefs or opinions questioned because deep down, they’re really not that confident in them or maybe a little narcissistic? Maybe not. But if we’re just spewing our ideas out there abrasively, what are we really accomplishing? My time’s valuable and if I’m going to put time into something, then I want it to at least have a shot of being effective or else it’s just a time waster. I thought your post above the last was well written and thought provoking btw.
Oh well sure John Wilburn, they are certainly the same thing.
Thanks Dan. Despite how you can sometimes come off, I assume the best of your intentions which is why I do more listening with you than talking. I’m genuinely curious to see where you’re coming from. I don’t see the right as a whole as being over the top. I think the far left is just as over the top. But the funny thing is, if Washington, and obviously us citizens, would listen to each other–like you and I, we’d see there is more agreement than we initially thought when we were more worried about getting our point across than hearing the other side’s thoughts. For instance, many of my good democratic friends have said they don’t mind being taxed more if it helps the poor. I might have a knee-jerk reaction to that and go on the attack about the government mismanaging money and resources (which I think in many cases they do), and start calling people commies. ha. But what I heard, because I was actually listening, was they have a heart to help the poor. This is common ground. Me too! The difference is I don’t want the government to do it for me. I don’t think they do a particularly good job at this. I give more than 10% of my income to charity. I help feed the poor, provide glasses, operations, wells, you name it. If the government takes another 10% of my income than I may no longer be able to afford to help these people. The charities I give to our well-managed and over 90% of what I give goes directly to those in need. Do I think the government will handle the money that well? I don’t. So, the right and left on many issues are closer than we think. Our motivations are largely the same. We, and the political parties, just aren’t listening to each other. This is so dysfunctional and the cause of many of our problems I think.
My daughter sent me this one just this morning, I am a big Iris Dement fan:
“Mama Was Always Tellin’ Her Truth
♫…Right there in that little house was a bigger world than I may ever see
Some people liked it and some people didn’t
For some of what she said she may never be forgiven
But that was mama and she just told her truth
Life with my mama could sometimes be a rough road
She could say somethin’ and blood would pour from my soul
But I wouldn’t trade one mile of this journey me and her have been on
Cause I’ve loved my mama like I’ve never loved another
Long as I live there will be no one above her
I know my mama cause she told me her truth
Life as I know it can be a little confusing
I don’t know the difference between winnin’ and losin’
Everytime I find a line that I can walk on, it slips from view
But when it all goes dark and I start losing vision
I just think about her and I know just what I’m missin’
I gotta go back to tellin’ my truth” ♫
Read more: IRIS DEMENT – MAMA WAS ALWAYS TELLIN’ HER TRUTH LYRICS
I can be as civil and patient as any debate requires and the person I am conversing with wants it to be. I do not duck and I do not miss.
Sorry, link messed up: http://www.metrolyrics.com/mama-was-always-tellin-her-truth-lyrics-iris-dement.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXN1w2iUG4g
Gina wants a point/counter-point type of thing, saying she is “putting together a nonfiction proposal… (based)on biblical promises for women.”
The bible = non fiction for women?
1 Timothy 2 -12 says “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” So Gina, you are forbidden from doing what you propose, because it runs the risk of instructing men, unless you actually have nothing to teach, in which case, why bother.
Here’s another disgrace that says to kill everyone in every family, except “keep the virgin girls for yourselves”. (Numbers 31-17-18).
Sex slaves? Owned by murderers? Of their families? This might be the word of Charles Manson, but it isn’t God.
Shame on anyone who would replace Love and the Golden Rule as the true authority over us. (Innate ideas that carry their own authority as something we should follow.)
Well, Gina, I want to thank you for not objecting to waste, fraud and abuse in the realm of government spending on defense.
Because then, a defense contractor I’m very close to might have to give up his company-leased Maserati, which is built into the company overhead that taxpayers pay 108 percent for.
Really.
/mild snark off
E. Duane Howard: what I think would bring much more civility to the blog discussion is being required to use your full name…even some how of having that name verified as a real person.
I think I know where you’re going with this: if people use their “real” identities, they’re less likely to say mean or hurtful or embarrassing things.
Anonymity is a gift. Sadly, most of the anonymous groundlings here choose to squander it. Their trolling and derailing gets on my nerves too. However, relieving them of their anonymity means taking away mine.
Sandi, clever way to get your point across. Dave, the book is aimed at women for the record and there is a huge debate with opposing interpretations and translations if you care to do a little research on the matter. I understand where reading certain scriptures would be a turn off, but it has to be read and understood as a whole. Be careful about taking a scripture verse out of context. If you read it as a whole, it makes much more sense. The old testament (which is where that verse is) is a hard book and some of it makes me cringe as does the law in general. Thank God for the new testament and grace. I do not believe the Bible is fiction but I understand others do. God has proven Himself to me time and again personally and my life is a miracle of grace. I appreciate hearing your thoughts and while it was a somewhat inflammatory way of putting it (comparing God’s word to Charles Manson), it was nice of you not to call me names personally. God bless.
I agree that there is much waste and taking advantage of the government and ultimately the tax payers by the rich and by SOME receiving government assistance. You won’t have argument with me there.
And Dave, thanks for bringing that scripture to light, because it encouraged me to do some reading. I read the Bible, but I’m no scholar. A great apologist is Ravi Zacharias. Genius really. What I did find was a lot of commentary on it. “This chapter records the war of extermination commanded by God against Midian. It was not a war of personal vengeance, but a war of execution of the wrath of a just God against a people who deliberately became God’s enemies and sought by every device they knew to frustrate the Divine purpose with regard to Israel.” So, these people were trying to poison God’s people with idolatry apparently and God is kind, but he doesn’t tolerate some things. He admits He is a jealous God. He is jealous over our hearts and since He created us, when we worship statues and false Gods, none of which can do a thing for us, it angers Him. The God of the Old Testament was both forgiving and full of wrath when provoked. But then comes Jesus. To fully understand what a gift His sacrifice was to pay for our sins, we first have to understand where we would be without it. Not trying to convert you, just talk out my thinking. As for the sex slaves, I don’t see where it says the women were used for that purpose. Slaves, yes. There was a lot of that in that time period. Do I like it? No. Does it make complete sense to my human mind? Not entirely. God is much more wise than I am. When I get to Heaven I have a lot of questions and I think He’ll be okay with that. Thanks again for the comments.
oops, that should have read by SOME rich and SOME not so rich and SOME middle-class.
A. RYAN my name there kristen
Civil discussion? With dan as the leader? HaHa! …putting the fox to guarding the hen house, sounds like.
Sorry didn’t really see that connection blame my parents
I guess this is better
Gina, I think you disprove your own point. Obviously some of your listening is falling short of actually informing you.
If private charity had been doing the job, none of the government (local, state or federal) efforts would have ever seen the need. They saw the need, back in the day of tarpaper shacks and barefoot school kids for a reason. It is also far more efficient, even given the waste, fraud and abuse, to have a centralized system that treats everyone fairly and the same.
Given the power of churches and religion, many are not comfortable with the judgment and rules that come with that charity nor the way it wains, is limited and is harder to find. Going to the Social Services office and filling our forms is not nearly as dehumanizing as going hat in hand to a church or charity group from what I understand.
That the government is involved and there is STILL room for so much private charity that most folks are “double dipping” should also be a bit of a clue.
I will not even bother with your typical choice to use the ‘most sure to press buttons’ subject of “welfare” for the poor and indigent as being your “gripe” with government inefficiency when the abuse, fraud and waste in government earmarks and contracts by the educated, powerful and affluent is a target much more suitable to a civil discussion.
Ok Aryan, if you say so. You might want to consider capitalizing the R. Much in the same way if someone’s intials were KKK, they might be putting the wrong impression out there on the internet if they used their intials as their handle.
Thanks for the clarification A. Ryan. Maybe you should adjust the name for future posts. Just sayin’
I don’t know what you think is “clever” Gina. I found it interesting that my daughter sends me the Iris Dement link this morning as we are discussing the truth that I tell. She wrote the song, I just happen to live it.
Apparently civility is like beauty. An eye of the beholder issue. Or maybe more accurately, it is the log in everyone else’s eye.
Sandi, that’s a valid point. Do I think no one needs welfare? Of course not. My mother worked in Philly driving around and getting mentally ill homeless of the street. There is absolutely needs that are valid. If I were to lose my job writing and had to be in the position of needing government assistance, I’d hope that it was there. Personally, I’ve seen family members abuse both Christian charities and government programs. They see it as a right and don’t work because they don’t have to. They know how to work the system.That’s certainly not everyone and hopefully not any kind of majority. So, that’s where some of my understanding lies. As a nurse, I’ve seen many who need help and absolutely aren’t abusing anything. I don’t think that there should be no government programs, but I think we probably can all agree that there is a lot of waste. Do I think the democrats are the wasteful ones? No. I think government is wasteful in many cases. A friend who worked for the government just told me the other day of all the abuse of time management and money they witness. It’s human nature to take the path of least resistance. Do I have the answer? I really don’t which is why I try not to get into debates. Some are really gifted at this. You’re probably one. My soapbox is just that in many cases, most of us in both political parties want the same things, or many of them. . . for those who need help to get it, to live our lives without be overly tied down to the point where we can’t do what we need to, etc. I don’t complain about the taxes I pay right now because I love being able to pick up the phone and call for an ambulance or the police. I love that the roads are there. I love that there are schools to educate our children. As a nurse I loved seeing those without insurance still getting the medical care they needed in an emergency. Do I believe we need to be a socialist country? Absolutely not. I grew up for the first years of my life in poverty. It was tough but we made do. I’m middle class now and one day, I’d love it if my books hit the NYT list and I had plenty of money. Do I want that for myself? Not entirely. I want to have the means to do even more for others. Not all rich people are selfish. And we jump to a lot of conclusions. You might see that I drive a BMW and make some assumptions. But the thing is a 99 (though it doesn’t look it) and has 230k miles and I paid less for it than my newer civic. The rambling point I’m making is that neither side has it completely right I don’t think and if we could sit down at the table, eye to eye and listen to each other, we’d find we’re in closer agreement to the heart of the matter than we first believed. I could be wrong. I certainly am often enough. If you really want to change other’s viewpoints, then I think you have to be open to have yours changed.
As far as someone being demoralized for going to a church for a need, I’ve heard that from someone but I don’t think that’s every church and shame on anyone who makes someone feel bad about really needing help. But on the other side, I’ve heard horror stories of some taking advantage of charity and it hardens hearts and makes some skeptical of the next person.
The clever comment just meant you got your point across in a song and that was different. We are all guilty of seeing the splinter in other’s eyes while missing the log in our own. Me included.
Civility is not possible when trying to reason with people who see nothing wrong with the fact that there have been over 54 million babies exterminated at the altar of convenience (and profit) in the US since Roe V Wade. Who speaks up for the most vulnerable and innocent members of our “civil” society? It is more dangerous to be an unborn child in America today than it was being a Jew in Nazi Germany.
Who speaks for the millions and millions of children who are victims of broken homes in America because men and women refuse to submit to the Holy God who created them.
The problem is people want to make God into their own image. The minute you say “Love and the golden rule” is the ultimate athority you have replaced God with an idol built according to your opinion. Yes God is love. That is part of His nature. But God is foremost and above all Holy. The same God of love is also the God of justice and judgement for all who refuse Him.
Galations 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man (or a nation)reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Not sure you will read this Mrs. Saunders because I’m a little late on the discussion but…
Yes I’m saying you have the blinders on. Those are the answers I expected and here is my retort…
fair share and compassion are liberal buzz words that get thrown about. I just wanted a definition. I think it is funny you think of the rich as parastic. I guess you believe they took all of the money and left none for us. I believe wealth is created and not a pie the everyone gets a cut of.
My roads comment is in response to President Obama’s comment that we didn’t build that. I think we did. We built those roads for us to use for business. That is something the gov can and should do to help business.
Lastly congrats on runing a small business. All I’m saying is that having to deal with so many gov regs was the final straw and my father sold his company. It was profitable, and yes one of his main concerns was the well being of his employees. But, after too many sleepless nights worrying about the inspector closing him down because of paperwork and which way a shovel was facing, it was time. My point is so many gov regs force small business to sell out to big business and then you complain about losing local jobs. You lump hard working small business owners in with the fat cats on wall street and villanize them. Maybe one day they just won’t create those jobs.
It’s amazing that A. Ryan never noticed that spelling and capitalizing the name as Aryan would be taken first as meaning Aryan. Almost unbelievable, in fact. It’s only made marginally believeable in light of all the other mid-wittedness constantly displayed on the ‘net.
In any case, Sandi has a point, and now that’s it’s been brought to A. Ryan’s attention, we’ll see what happens. Because surely Aryan knows that the Aryan Nation racists are a bunch of ignorant losers who all have African and Jewish genetic heritage, evem thought they’re too stupid to admit it, and would never want to be mistaken for such savage idiots.
#31 Well, A. Ryan, it sure nuff reads like Aryan. Some bad connotations there.
Civil discussion? With dan as the leader? HaHa! …putting the fox to guarding the hen house, sounds like.
Yeah, I know what you mean, Frank. Here he calls for civility, then in the next breath, he implies I’m a prostitute.
Gina:
You’ve substituted man-made words for your “god” given knowledge of the authority of love and the golden rule. Anytime there is a conflict in one’s beliefs, common sense dictates that we must defer to love and the golden rule – ideas which carry their own authority as the highest truths.
As for the apologist you cite, it’s all drivel from a man who intended to keep milking the sheep. Stop and think: If god destroyed Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, why does he need us to kill for him?
If I kill a couple of dozen people in a grade school or theatre, can I really claim is was god’s will? Or would I be crazy? Yet the Jews murdered whole nations in the name of “god”. We rightly put people in jails or asylums who obey voices that tell them to kill. Right?
As for your assertion I need to study the bible, it is you that needs more study. That book is a story about a demon (Jesus) who found the key to life (love) and tried to share it with us other demons (those unruled by love). Jesus is not a god, but merely an enlightened man, turned into a business by opportunists after he got killed trying to end the Moses’ business.
Since the dawn of time, woman have sold physical comfort in the form of sex, while men have sold spiritual comfort in the form of “what god says”. Both are false love and false truth, (i.e. lies). We can argue which profession is older, but we know what the profession is.
PS: If you are compelled to keep attempting to “instruct” me here, in violation of your own professed word of god, then I politely decline further correspondence with disobedient you.
Dave, my polite response and prayer is may God have mercy on your soul.
“I think danny is afraid of her…lol”
pammala, why do we have to keep telling you to back away from the Mad Dog?
“If you want a name of the perfect person to counter you, I think I know one. She’s a local writer.” Hey Dan, I thought I was your foil! Speaking of negative, anonymous reviews — try writing a book with a couple of curse words in it and see how the “Christians” react. It’s a good thing I know how to bite my tongue, and turn my cheeks…the butt cheeks, that is.
Dave Gresham:
“Jesus is not a god, but merely an enlightened man, turned into a business by opportunists after he got killed trying to end the Moses’ business.”
+1
Gina, it is a very valid point that “in many cases, most of us in both political parties want the same things, or many of them”. I agree that all of us are too often poor vessels for real communication due to the baggage we carry and the suspicion of any opinion not in agreement.
You sound like a genuinely decent person who tries to make every situation you are in better. The world could use more of you. Building a consensus is important as is seeing things from as many “angles” as possible. I do not assign motives to laws or legislation other than wanting to make things better, but I acknowledge that they too often don’t.
My own “soapbox” is fix the fraud, abuse, greed and inefficiency from the top down, not the bottom up. By the time we get to reforming “welfare”, we will likely have a pretty good handle on what is and is not good to try.
I do not believe that ALL of any group is one thing. No, “Not all rich people are selfish” or greedy (many are far from either). Not all poor people abuse the safety nets either. I agree that “neither side has it completely right”. I also agree that “if we could sit down at the table, eye to eye and listen to each other, we’d find we’re in closer agreement to the heart of the matter than we first believed”. You are not “wrong”, just maybe expecting too much in a forum like a public blog that allows anonymity and insult.
I do not “want to change other’s viewpoints”, I believe a view is as valid as you can prove it to be. I just wish that when someone is proven wrong, shown evidence of their being mistaken, overstating, or the missing side, they had the decency to acknowledge it. Simply acknowledging that someone might have a valid point would do wonders for any discussion. Right wing ideology, on religion and politics is too rigid and heavy for most to ever even think such, much less admit it. And yes, much more rigid, judgmental and critical than left wing ideology on either IMO.
Thanks Sandi. Changing from the top down is interesting and I’m chewing on that. Maybe like before you can change a child’s heart, you might need the change the parents? Anyway, I think I get what you’re saying. The only thing we wouldn’t agree on is that the right is much more judgmental than the left. I listen to both left talk radio and right and both give me a headache because everyone wants to be heard and no one wants to listen. They are both so passionate about calling each other bigots and ignorant and well, you name it. It’s a lot of hate mongering in many (certainly not all) cases. They don’t see themselves that way of course. We all see ourselves as hero and the other side as the villain. That’s human nature, but not all that helpful or correct. Most of us want to see others prosper, be healthy, happy, go to Heaven one day, and all that good stuff. None of us want our kids gunned down, but we have different thoughts on why that’s happening and how it can be stopped. Politics are a difficult topic as is religion. I’m much more passionate about someone’s soul than their political views which is why I try not to spend my resources as much on the former. It’s not that I don’t think it’s important. It is very much so. I think we all have gifts and others are more gifted in the area of debating than me. I’d rather have a conversation. No one’s ever changed my mind by yelling at me, but from a considerate, two-sided conversation, many times. It was interesting and though-provoking to listen to your thoughts. I don’t think we’re all that far apart on a lot of things. Thanks for your kind words, Sandi. Just when I was ready to answer the initial question of this blog title with a “probably not”, you give me hope. Thanks for that!
Wow, Gina. I am impressed with your stuff. Keep up the good work.
Please Suzie, you remain the most polarizing, name calling, partisan and unyielding participant this blog has ever seen and you complain about others being “uncivil”? To claim the “leftwingers” here have no interest in civil discussion while you yourself have seldom engaged in it is shamelessly hypocritical, almost laughably so.
On the contrary, I am one of the few who took Dan’s directive toward civility seriously. The leftwingers haven’t.
Will R, I have it on good authority that God also is not fond of those who are repeatedly dishonest.
You continue to claim that anyone who is pro choice, meaning we side with the woman who is the incubator, as being “people who see nothing wrong with the fact that there have been over 54 million babies exterminated“. That is patently dishonest, self-righteous and offensive. None of us have ever said we “see nothing wrong” with abortion. Abortion is an extreme choice. There is plenty wrong in a world where any woman feels she must choose that option.
Instead of just robbing her of that option however, we seek to make available comprehensive sex education, free prophylactics and sterilization, as well as safety net programs that help her not get into the situation or to choose life. THAT is the only real difference between our positions. You do not see her as having any choice once she is impregnated and we do.
Present your own opinions as you like and stop stating ours, you do it badly.
Comment by Gina Holmes — February 6, 2013 @ 2:41 pm
“Dave, my polite response and prayer is may God have mercy on your soul.”
And therein lies the problem with conversing with those with affected piety – the arrogance of a prayer, “may God have mercy on your soul” as a “polite” parting shot. Very “conciliatory” of you and very telling.
Thanks Pistol Pete. I missed your comment before. On the abortion issue, I’ve only heard one person ever say they were pro-abortion. But here’s where some of us, no, make myself, are coming from. I don’t believe in giving the woman the right to kill her own baby. From a religious stand point, and this only holds water if you’re actually religious so my argument won’t end here, God says in the Bible that He knew us in our mother’s womb, that He fashioned us. I believe He grieves these children personally. From a human standpoint, I was an OB/GYN nurse and held a baby that could have been legally aborted. I assure you, it was very much a baby. My mother was pressured to abort me, (she was a teenager). I was encouraged to abort my oldest son because he was inconvenient (I got pregnant between my last two college semesters. Thank God my mother didn’t take that advice and thank God I didn’t. The world is a better place because of my son. If you can legally kill a second trimester baby, then why not be able to legally kill a newborn? Both are dependent on others for life. I find abortion to be a modern day holocaust. I don’t judge women who’ve felt that had to do this. It’s not the unforgivable sin. But I do think many of them go on to deeply regret it.
“Is a more civil conversation even possible?”
No.
A.Ryan, perhaps I should have put parasitic in quotation marks as I did not coin the phrase.
http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2013/01/americas-four-socioeconomic-classes.html
“America’s Four Socioeconomic Classes
A titanic political battle is brewing between the parasitic aristocracy, the dependent class and the two classes creating value with their labor.
In the conventional view, America’s socioeconomic classes are divided by income and wealth into various layers of Wealthy, Middle Class and Poor.
If we extend the analysis presented in Why Employment in the U.S. Isn’t Coming Back (January 29, 2013) and Why Employment Is Dead in the Water (January 28, 2013), we get an entirely different framework that breaks naturally into four classes:
1. Parasitic financial Aristocracy (creates no value, skims national surplus)
2. High value creation (employed, heavily taxed)
3. Low value creation (employed/informal economy, lightly taxed)
4. No value creation (unemployed, dependent)”
If “fair share and compassion are liberal buzz words” why are you using them?
I use a dictionary when I want a definition and I suggest you do the same.
You may believe as you see fit, that is the beauty of the human mind. You have offered not one whit of evidence to back up your belief however.
Explaining your “comments” after the fact is an ambush not a discussion. I am literally not interested.
Roads help health care, religion, families, agriculture, transportation, defense, law enforcement and this entire nation, not just business.
If you believe “having to deal with so many gov regs was the final straw” that too is your belief to have. Many businesses manage to do so.
I agree that small business is closest to caring about “the well being of” their employees. It is among the many great reasons to work for a small business.
I will not argue that regulations and the cost of employees are not a bane to business, but that comes with the profits.
I am sorry to see any family business sold, but for many that 24/7 commitment and the pressure is hard to bear.
I would NEVER “lump hard working small business owners in with the fat cats on wall street” I try NEVER to “villanize them” either. With the exception of my first job, I have always chosen to work for small business and when I ran a small business with my sister, it was grueling. I think that American entrepreneurial spirit will always “create those jobs”. When I say business, I mean Big Business like Wall Street and Exxon Mobil and Wal-Mart and GE and ATT and Bank of Ameerica – the Fortune 500. Not small business. IMO, small business pays for the mistakes and abuses of big business.
Below are links to two videos. One is of Pres. Eisenhower warning us of the developing military industrial complex in our nation. That was from 1961. The second video is current. It features Robert Reich talking with us about the current Military Industrial Congressional Complex and its impact on us today. Pres. Eisenhower warned us in 1961 and we didn’t listen. We are paying the price for that failure today.
This strikes at the heart of the problem, the reason for three wars and over 70,000 American deaths. It is also the reason our educational, health care, and safety net programs are poor. It is the reason we have decaying roads, collapsing bridges and poor public transportation. It is the reason why American workers work longer hours and have fewer vacations than other economically mature nations.
I realize that my comments, the two videos and the comments I suspect will follow in response will not aid in encouraging civility on this blog. However, I could not resist reminding us what a great Republican president told us so many years ago and what it has cost us today. Each video only takes about 2 minutes to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ_1VtFQZJs
Ron, I thought you did a fine job at civility. The videos were interesting. I for one am not for cutting back our military to the point that we are no longer on the cutting edge of technology or can’t defend ourselves. Hello, North Korea. Nor do I think all wars are propagated in a conspiracy to line pockets–WWII was a righteous war if such a thing exists these days. That said, I did find it very interesting to think of the government waste, if these are true (and I’m of the trust, but verify camp). I’m guessing there’s a little more to the story than what is shown in these shorts.
We seek to make available…. free prophylactics and sterilization
She talks about this ghoulish stuff with the ease and banality of someone taking out the trash. That’s how successful the far-left has been in desensitizing people to evil.
(This comment was held due to a filter so I’ll fix and repost) Elena, snarkiness aside, you have a good point about Christians and cursing, but it’s a generalization and a stereotype. My friend Mike Duran wrote an excellent post on this entitled “counting cusswords”. If you google it, you might find it an interesting read. Not all Christian writers (and I took it out of quotes on purpose) think a curse word is half as important as pat answers, piousness or many other things. Some Christians have margaritas, say sh*t when they smash their toe, and are more concerned with being kind to others than whether or not their skirt touches their ankles. I’m sorry that’s the impression you have, but believe me, I can understand how you got it.
“I for one am not for cutting back our military to the point that we are no longer on the cutting edge of technology or can’t defend ourselves. Hello, North Korea. . . .”
–Comment by Gina Holmes.
North Korea is no threat to us, seriously. For anyone who fears it is, I strongly suggest they read the following trilogy of stories, which are
A) fascinating;
B) hilarious; and
C) so WONDERFULLY written that I get green with envy every time I re-read them
I made pizza for Kim Jong-il Part 1: Welcome to megapolis
I made pizza for Kim Jong-il Part 2: Hot ovens at the seaside
I made pizza for Kim Jong-il Part 3: The great man eats
I will read them right now, thanks Dan. How about hello islamic radicals then?
Gina,
Big standing armies, aircraft carrier, ICBMs and other ultra-expensive weapons projects are horribly ineffective at fighting Islamic radicals. Mind you, they will work sometimes, but it requires perpetual occupation, a hell of lot of blood, and enormous amounts of money.
Our military is set up for warfare, not terrorist actions. In fact, the bigger our military is, the more vulnerable it is to terrorism.
Mr. May, I think you’ve got too many zeros in your death toll. That’s getting equal to Korea and Vietnam together. As far as our roads and bridges are concerned they were built for military purposes. The bridge height is based on the height of a missle on a flatbed truck. I have a close family member that started with VDOT in 1956 and retired from VDOT. The other benefits were a bonus. The fed gives money to the states for roads and other related projects this is in addition to what the states provide. A large problem with the decay is due to the corruption within some states. For example: look up how much was given to New Orleans for the levies to be upgraded over decades and yet they never seamed to be upgraded. Louisiana is notorious for these types of things.
As far as education is concerned the government developes the learning standards and have since I believe Woodrow Wilson. I think the biggest problem is the lack of discipline in the schools and many parents not keeping up with there kids. You have kids threatening their teachers and being disrespectful. This was not tolerated when I went to school. I have family and friends that are teachers. I realise that there are other issues but we need to start looking at this first IMO. What happened? When I went to a local High-school kids had loaded rifles in their trucks during hunting season. We had fights not shootings. Is it society? How we raise our kids?
Maybe not, Dan. You’re probably right. I believe in a strong military though the ins and outs are out of my realm of expertise. I do think if we were militarily weak, there are plenty of folks who are quite vocal at letting us know they’d be happy to see us exterminated. When I worked in a mental health facility, when a patient went ballistic and violent, they would call as many staff there as possible as a show of strength. We didn’t usually have to do a thing but stand there in numbers. It deterred a lot of violence against staff. The article is so long. Ha. I read the first part and found it amusing and sad at the same time. I’ll save part II for tomorrow. Ironically, it’s this sort of thing that many on the right fear. May it never be so.
I guess a lot depends on how you define “defense”. A population that’s sick, hungry, and uneducated has already lost. The best defense is a strong, healthy and forward-thinking citizenry, with the economic and intellectual wherewithal to keep us on the social and economic pinnacles to which we feel entitled.
It’s a matter of priorities, which is where all our disagreements start. They can be discussed civally or uncivally, but no amount of discussion is going to convince me that the government has no role to play in the well being of its population, or that private AND public entities should work together towards this goal. I’m never going to believe gays are less than full citizens no how many well-meaning or “civil” people patiently explain to me why they are.
Mr. May, as far as the US being economically immature I just don’t feel that we are. After WWII the entire world was basically destroyed. They needed goods and we were the only country with the goods. It took about 20 years before they really started humming again. Some of the benifits that they give their workers I feel are too much. If you look at France and what it takes to fire a worker, it causes businesses to be reluctant to hire. This I feel is the reason for the 50ish% unemployment rate of young people. This I feel also causes their nightly car burnings. Just something to reflect upon.
It is also the reason our educational, health care, and safety net programs are poor.
They are the most bloated programs in the world. More proof socialism doesn’t and can never work, because it’s not based on results. It’s based on government insatiability.
Again, you choose to betray your own mantra IMO Gina.
Seriously, in what realm can you say “I find abortion to be a modern day holocaust” and then in the next breath say “I don’t judge women who’ve felt that had to do this“? Do you not see your own hypocrisy, judgment and condemnation? Are you judging the doctors?
You were allowed to have the choice, THAT is the point of privacy and human rights. Not being Solomon, you may well feel you made the right decision, that does not make it the right decision for every woman and nothing gives you the right or authority to decide for her.
You are no different from the blatantly insulting Suzie’s of this blog, you just want to think you are because you do not call anyone names.
Like many before you, you want us to be civil and respect what you say and ignore how you say it or what it implies. No thanks.
You might want to do a little more research on both God’s and early Christian “value” on a fetus. What he conveniently said to Jeremiah was very specific to Jeremiah. He did not say it of everyone.
Your “justification” for our military industrial complex and the money we continue to spend is telling and typical as well.
I hear you, Gina, but you know what? Nobody’s messing with Bolivia, Switzerland, New Zealand, Canada, Malta, or Norway. Nobody’s pushing these countries around.
It’s fine to be prepared, but it’s quite another to use a military as an instrument of foreign policy that as often as not is pushing corporate interests rather than national ones.
Enjoy those North Korea stories. They are amazing. I’m not even convinced they’re true — but they’re damn interesting.
I know I will kick myself for this but what pray tell us Suzie, is “ghoulish” about preventing pregnancy?
Sandi, you now there’s nothing wrong with it. And you know that suzie thinks everybody should be FORCED to follow Vatican beliefs (notice I don’t say “Catholic” because we know that a large percentage of Catholics use birth control). Either that or she’s just trolling again.
“I don’t believe in giving the woman the right to kill her own baby.”
Technically, she doesn’t kill her baby. She pays another person to kill her baby.
GO84,
First, U.S. Defense Department statistics indicate that deaths attributed to the conflict in Vietnam totalled 58,209. Conflicts in Afghanistan & Iraq since 2001 has resulted in 13,036 deaths. That totals, by my elementary mathematical ability, more than 71,245 combat deaths. That does not include deaths due to the first Gulf War nor many other military actions involving U.S. military personnel since 1961.
Second, I don’t recall mentioning in my post anything about the “immaturity” of the American economy.
Third, much of the U.S. transportation infrastructure was built during the 1960s, 1970s & the early 1980s. Certainly there have been repairs to that system since that time. However, the Virginia Legislature, along with most other state legislatures in the U.S. are struggling with finding revenues to repair and update that transportation system. Congress is paralyzed right now and unable to make decisions about how to productively spend money updating our transportation system.
There are many other comments I could make right now, but will hold off. What I do agree with Mr Reich about is that we should ban Defense Department Contractors from spending money the U.S. government gives them to build our weapons systems, etc. on lobbying the very representatives who approve the appropriations they receive. I also agree with Dan that we currently have a military that is prepared and equipped to fight wars, but not very well equipped or focused on fighting terrorism, which is the real threat to our national security.
I guess “civility” requires smiling nicely and listening meekly while being called baby killers. Mmmk.
Thanks for having me on Dan. A great reminder of why I avoid these things. Most people don’t want to listen, they just want to be heard. I don’t think any minds were changed or even challenged much but I appreciated the experiment.
@warren I honestly didn’t make that connection. I always thought of it as a Ryan like a person from the Ryan clan and my first name happens to start with A. For the record, racism, sexism and homophobia are dumb. The best person should get the job. I hope it dies out with your generation so my generation will flourish.
And mrs. Saunders I agree that small businesses are the ones punished by big businesses messing up. I’m glad we could agree on something. I hope to discuss a different topic soon and you won’t think I’m a racist bigot named aryan.
Thank YOU Gina! Come back some time!
Great name, ARyan. Funny.
Gina Holmes,
I hope you will come back. I have tried, sometimes without success, to be civil with others on this blog. Admittedly, many bloggers have and express strong opinions and are rarely, if ever, moved to the other side.
I just spent several days in Washington, DC. Some of that time was spent on Capitol Hill calling on members of Congress. What I have witnessed, in my lifetime, is a hardening of the lines in the sand members of Congress use to separate themselves from other members who are somewhere on the other side of those lines. I happen to believe that has made it more difficult to get anything done in our country. What I have found, as recently as this past Monday, is members of Congress putting their own interests before the best interests of this country. That saddens me and leaves my frustrated. More than at any time in my lifetime, Will Rogers’ old line about Congress, is truer than it has ever been. Of course that line says “We have the best Congress money can buy.” This past Monday afternoon, myself and two other presidents of not for profit colleges had our meeting with a member of Congress shortened when a hig ranking official from a for profit college showed up and wanted to meet with that member of Congress. That for profit college had contributed several thousand dollars to the member of Congress’ 2012 campaign. None of our colleges nor their presidents had contributed anything to that member of Congress’ campaign for election. In short, money talks and you know what walks. I’ve know that is true, but have not seen it so crassly displayed.
People like you and I, who may not always agree on every subject or idea, need to continue to engage each other. We can’t stop talking to one another. Neither can we allow the influence of others to isolate you and I from having discussions on topics on which we disagree. Ultimately, if you and I are permitted to continue to have our discussions, we will find a mutally beneficial solution to our differences and make progress on solving the challenges confronting our country. That part of the conversation isn’t being permitted right now. Hopefully, before our leaders destroy our nation we can restart that conversation.
Civility is not possible when trying to reason with people who see nothing wrong with the fact that there have been over 54 million babies exterminated at the altar of convenience (and profit) in the US since Roe V Wade. Who speaks up for the most vulnerable and innocent members of our “civil” society? It is more dangerous to be an unborn child in America today than it was being a Jew in Nazi Germany.
Who speaks for the millions and millions of children who are victims of broken homes in America because men and women refuse to submit to the Holy God who created them.
The problem is people want to make God into their own image. The minute you say “Love and the golden rule” is the ultimate athority you have replaced God with an idol built according to your opinion. Yes God is love. That is part of His nature. But God is foremost and above all Holy. The same God of love is also the God of justice and judgement for all who refuse Him.
Galations 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man (or a nation)reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Very well said, Will R. Common sense like that should be spoken more often in here. This blog needs it.
Comment by Gina Holmes — February 6, 2013 @ 2:41 pm
“Dave, my polite response and prayer is may God have mercy on your soul.”
And therein lies the problem with conversing with those with affected piety – the arrogance of a prayer, “may God have mercy on your soul” as a “polite” parting shot. Very “conciliatory” of you and very telling.
Comment by Hillary — February 6, 2013 @ 3:48 pm
Right to the heart of the matter, Hillary. +1
I guess “civility” requires smiling nicely and listening meekly while being called baby killers. Mmmk.
And to liberals, we are uncivil if we don’t embrace the perverse misappropriation of God’s gifts and the evil destruction of little babies.
Sorry, but I’m always going to continue to stand up for the most defenseless among us, and I will keep identifying evil godless actions for what they are.
No kidding, Hillary and Jason. Maybe we’re supposed to affect gratitude for being informed we’re going to burn in hell. Yawn.
Comment by Gina Holmes — February 6, 2013 @ 2:41 pm
“Dave, my polite response and prayer is may God have mercy on your soul.”
And therein lies the problem with conversing with those with affected piety – the arrogance of a prayer, “may God have mercy on your soul” as a “polite” parting shot. Very “conciliatory” of you and very telling.
Hillary,
I thought Gina was being polite as she could have, given the circumstances. When I feel someone has said something callous, hateful, and self, I just want revert back to my former self and give it to them with both barrels, as I think everyone in here knows I can do. But I am trying hard not to give in to that temptation. That’s why I respect what Gina said.
Kristen, I was simply telling you WHY I felt that abortion was murder. If you had held a baby that could have been aborted, perhaps you would feel differently? Each of our life experiences effect our world view and passion on one topic over another. I’ve had good friends and family members who’ve had abortions. I don’t look at them and think “baby killer”, I simply think what a tragedy. My heart aches for them. Can you at least understand why I am so passionate about this? If you thought millions of babies were being legally murdered, would you be passionate about it? You don’t have to agree, but an emotionally healthy person will try to understand the other point. And NO WHERE did I say you were going to hell. Interesting that you went there.
Ron, you give me hope.
To those who are offended by my prayers. Seriously? If someone of a different religion said they’d pray for me, even if it was after I did something I didn’t find wrong but they did, I would just say “thanks”. I understand that not everyone is of my faith. You don’t have to believe as I do (God gave us free will so we could choose or not to choose to love and follow Him), but where’s the tolerance so many claim?
Dan, you’ve given me food for thought.
Suzie, I enjoyed the dialogue. My former self was a two-barrel responder. I had to take a break and come back to finish responded because that human side of me was beginning to win.
Sandi,
I might want to research “fetus” in the Bible. I’m no scholar but I’ve read the Bible several times cover to cover and I don’t recall what you’re implying. I find it interesting that you didn’t address my non religious argument about the baby I was blessed to hold that could have been legally aborted. Do I believe it’s legalized murder, yup.
As for:
“Seriously, in what realm can you say “I find abortion to be a modern day holocaust” and then in the next breath say “I don’t judge women who’ve felt that had to do this“? Do you not see your own hypocrisy, judgment and condemnation? Are you judging the doctors?”
There are two possible meanings here of “judge” one is to come to a conclusion of right vs wrong. Since I call abortion murder, obviously that’s not my meaning. The other is to condemn. That’s my meaning. Do I condemn the women, no. Judgement in the way of condemnation lies in God’s hands alone. He tells us if we are guilty of one sin, we are guilty of all. So by my having told a lie, or stole something or dishonored my parents or whatever, I am a murderer. Before that’s attacked, I believe God says this to show we are all sinners, equally guilty, equally in need of a pardon for our sins by Jesus’ sacrifice of love on the cross. I didn’t contradict myself. There have been inconsistencies by others here, yourself included that I could have chose to point out but I’m not reading your responses to “get” you. I’m just listening and responding.
Those who are defending the Bible, keep on keeping on, but please do it kindly and listen as much as you speak. People are judging all Christians by your actions and words.
Thanks again everyone. I’m bailing now because I have actual work to do. If anyone wants to ask anything or say anything, you can contact me through my website.
“Sorry, but I’m always going to continue to stand up for the most defenseless among us, and I will keep identifying evil godless actions for what they are.”
Comment by Suzie — February 6, 2013 @ 11:10 pm
Ah,yes; suz’s demonstrating her convictions for the most defenseless among us, just as long as she doesn’t have to adopt or raise any.
Real stalwart advocate for children, that suz…changing the world one blog post at a time.
Steve, I adopted and am raising a child that a mother chose not to abort even though the circumstances of her conception were ones I’m sure most would have defended if she had. My child is super smart, gifted, talented, loving, caring, creative, artistic, and has certainly made the world a better place. She transformed our families from a culturally diverse perspective and enriched all of our lives in more ways than we could have ever achieved from forming our family any other way. I look at her every day and thank God the birth mother had the strength and courage to make the decision she made.
So from one such person that is living it, I advocate for those children who never got a chance to experience life and change the world.
Ms. Holmes, I hope you can see why what you suggested is never going to be possible. Never.
Good for you, Bugman.
Gina and Suzie, there is no realm in existence on this planet that calling something a woman does “murder” or “a Holocaust” is not condemning and judging that woman. Play word games as you like, it remains the truth.
If I say your posts are vile Suzie and your newly adopted piety sickening, I am judging you and condemning you. No way to spin it any other way. Surely you remember when you did that too.
It is not “tough love”, it is not tangential discussion of a topic. It is judging and condemning a person for their legally provided choice. I am not sure what insult is worse than accusing someone of willingly participating in “a Holocaust” or committing “murder”.
Bring all the barrels you posses or pretend to lovingly insult us. There is not much difference IMO. Smiling while you slip in the dagger has never made it hurt less that I am aware of. You are taking a piety you have not earned IMO.
Typo: Bring all the barrels you possess…
Ah,yes; suz’s demonstrating her convictions for the most defenseless among us, just as long as she doesn’t have to adopt or raise any.
Funny, coming from Steve C., but actually you have no idea what I do in that department because I haven’t cared to share it in here.
Judging isn’t the same thing as condemning. If you steal from me I’ll judge that wrong but it doesn’t mean I think you should go to Hell. If I think something is murder than whether or not I am politically correct or step on toes doesn’t matter so much. I think I put it as nicely as was possible. You don’t like it? That’s okay. That’s how I feel. Do you judge and condemn others who you think are committing atrocities? I’m guessing you do and/or would. Sometimes we call a spade a spade.
And those who are attacking Suzie… are you adopting or raising any? We could all do better and not everyone is in a position to adopt or foster. Some aren’t well suited for it. Did you point out a typo? This is a blog.
Sorry, but I’m always going to continue to stand up for the most defenseless among us, and I will keep identifying evil godless actions for what they are.
Comment by Suzie — February 6, 2013 @ 11:10 pm
LOL! That’s funny… So I guess you don’t care about the evil things your people do in the name of god, huh?
And aren’t you judging me for my personal beliefs?
“but actually you have no idea what I do in that department because I haven’t cared to share it in here.”
Generally speaking, suzie, when you say you have no children, which you most certainly have said in the past, that means you have no children, birth or adopted. Now, if you’d care to amend that and admit to lying in the past, go right ahead.
“Did you point out a typo? This is a blog.”
Uhh, Gina, she corrected her own typo. Because she knew suzie would jump on it.
gdad,
You’ve got to admit, it’s a great line: “Did you point out a typo? This is a blog.”
I love it!
Yes, I pointed out a typo because among her many “attributes” Suzie loves to slice and dice the slightest and silliest of typos or misspellings by those with whom she disagrees. You have no idea who you are bedding down with, in other words.
Sure I judge, and condemn, I just generally do not have the hypocrisy on me so strong that I do it in one sentence then deny I am doing it in the next. There is no way to “nicely as was possible” say someone has participated in “a Holocaust” or committed “murder”.
I am not saying your should not stand up for what you believe. I am asking you to own it and stop pretending that it is not a horrible thing to say to the millions of women who have made that choice and the millions more who doubtless will. You said it, you should stop trying to defend it as being “nice” or not judging and condemning. It wasn’t and it is.
Every person on this planet has a path to walk. What YOU do or choose on your path is on you. What they choose or do is on them. It is childish to pretend a woman who chooses abortion has no idea what she is doing or what will happen to the fetus. It is a soul wrenching choice that is between a woman and God. Not any other mortal IMO.
And if, as you say, sin is sin and we have all sinned, your judging of this or that sin you object to is still offensive to anyone who hears Jesus tell us not to judge, to be without sin before casting stones and to go and sin no more…
As to the Bible and the way it speaks of a fetus:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%209:14&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205:11-21&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2031:15-18&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%2013:16&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%2015:16&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2015:3&version=NKJV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20137:8-9&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+1:16&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:20-24&version=KJV
I read your response, Sandi. We disagree but I appreciate the thought you put into it. Thanks everyone.
It is a soul wrenching choice that is between a woman and God.
I’m tired of all that hand-wringing gobbledygook to justify what is nothing less than a gruesome horrible killing of another human being. Yeah, it’s between a woman and God, all right. And God isn’t going to look kindly at his greatest commandment being trampled upon. The fact that Satan and his Communist Party minions have duped millions into believing that destroying another human being strictly for selfish reasons is acceptable will not lessen the consequences for the women involved.
So yeah, we are calling a spade a spade when it comes to a woman destroying her own offspring. She’s a killer, plain and simple. There really is no way to dress that up.
#103 Indeed, it was a good one, Dan.
Oh, sorry on the typo thing. I didn’t understand. I don’t know the inner workings or past dealings of y’all’s interrelationships. Thanks for correcting me gdad. (I’m not at all being sarcastic btw.
Even if we butted heads here, I hope if any of you see me out, you’ll say hello. I was honored to share with you and be shared with and I definitely have a better understanding of some ideas that are different than mine.
“And therein lies the problem with conversing with those with affected piety – the arrogance of a prayer, “may God have mercy on your soul” as a “polite” parting shot. Very “conciliatory” of you and very telling.”
Oops, Hillary, meant to respond to you. Let me get this straight. Someone calls the Son of God, my Lord and Savior, the one who took my sins on His shoulders and died for me a “Demon” and you call ME out for saying I’d pray for his soul? Are you really that jaded? Guess what, I meant it. What am I supposed to say to him? If I would have said, “dam*” you to hell, would that have been better? Guess what? I really meant it. I prayed for him. He didn’t want me to or care if I did and that’s okay. I find your comment telling of you.
The arrogance of prayer?
You can’t know my motivations and I can’t know yours.
As I read Suzie’s tantrum in #106 @ 2:07 pm, I literally got chills. Having just put this up on the Round Table in response to the demand for “evidence” of Hitler being a Christian, please notice with me the sad, dispiriting truth: his words echo today and his propaganda lives.
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord [p. 60].”
“…And so he tries systematically to lower the racial level by a continuous poisoning of individuals.
And in politics he begins to replace the idea of democracy by the dictatorship of the proletariat.
In the organized mass of Marxism he has found the weapon which lets him dispense with democracy and in its stead allows him to subjugate and govern the peoples with a dictatorial and brutal fist.
He works systematically for revolutionization in a twofold sense: economic and political.
Around peoples who offer too violent a resistance to attack from within he weaves a net of enemies, thanks to his international influence, incites them to war, and finally, if necessary, plants a flag of revolution on the very battlefields.
In economics he undermines the states until the social enterprises which have become unprofitable are taken from the state and subjected to his financial control.
In the political field he refuses the state the means for its self-preservation, destroys the foundations of all national self-maintenance and defense, destroys faith in the leadership, scoffs at its history and past, and drags everything that is truly great into the gutter.
Culturally, he contaminates art, literature, the theater, makes a mockery of natural feeling, overthrows all concepts of beauty and sublimity, of the noble and the good, and instead drags men down into the sphere of his own base nature.
Religion is ridiculed, ethics and morality represented as outmoded, until the last props of a nation in its struggle for existence in this world have fallen.””
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/kampf.html
May God have mercy!
Gina, I do believe you are a good heart and a good Christian woman, but seriously, your motivations for praying for anyone would be better served in just the doing and not the telling. You know the verse, “… don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street ….”. Come on, you are setting your own pins up to be knocked down and I can only pray that is out of not being a blogger not that very “affected piety” Hillary mentioned. You have to think how your comments will sound to someone not in tune or agreement with you.
I have looked rather long on how God and Jesus advised us to speak to non-believers and it was mainly -dust on your feet (move on) or help them want Me. Have you done that?
As I read Suzie’s tantrum in #106 @ 2:07 pm, I literally got chills.
Aren’t people who kill for no good reason called killers?
Sandi, you raise a good point. I always hope my motivations are right but I know I fail– I’m nothing but a sinner saved by grace. You’re right about the dust on our feet. But, I’m not sure the Bible was implying we are never to pray in public, just not do it just for show or to appear holy. I wasn’t. Jesus prayed on the cross, “Forgive them, Father for they know not what they do.” Do people want Him because of anything I say or do? Yikes, I sure hope so. I hope people see Him in me. I’m ashamed to say I’m not always the best ambassador, but I’m better than I was and not as good as I hope one day to be. I do understand how I can be seen as being pious for praying, but that’s really assuming the worst. I find it interesting that there is plenty of “tolerance” to go around, just less and less for Christians it seems to me. Thanks for your kind words and I do appreciate the thoughtful dialect.
Okay – I just have to say it…after reading all of Gina Holmes’ posts – I call phoney “moderate”:
@13 “If I were to come out and say I think abortion is legalized murder…”
Nice way to frame your opinion .
@13 “I may be further to the right on the moderate scale than him…”
Do you think? See above comment.
@20 “I have a sharp tongue and a quick wit and when I can cut someone down to size quickly, it’s hard not to.”
So much for a gentler kinder “moderate”.
@22 “I help feed the poor, provide glasses, operations, wells, you name it. If the government takes another 10% of my income than I may no longer be able to afford to help these people.”
Sounds like RW speak to me – ‘if I have to provide insurance then I will have to cut back on personnel, hours, salary,blah blah blah’.
@39 “Personally, I’ve seen family members abuse both Christian charities and government programs. They see it as a right and don’t work because they don’t have to. They know how to work the system.”
Now where have I heard this…oh yes, Romney’s 47% – the “takers”…
@52 “The only thing we wouldn’t agree on is that the right is much more judgmental than the left. I listen to both left talk radio and right and both give me a headache…”
Does anyone who is NOT a RW listen to RW radio? I think not.
@57 “I don’t believe in giving the woman the right to kill her own baby.”
Words matter – “right to kill her own baby” – nice, very nice.
@57 “I find abortion to be a modern day holocaust.”
Again, words matter…holocaust, really? Nothing like inflammatory language to start a “civil conversation”.
@61 “I for one am not for cutting back our military to the point that we are no longer on the cutting edge of technology or can’t defend ourselves. Hello, North Korea.”
Yes, let’s spend more on the military than those “abused” government programs and create new bogeymen…
@89 “If you thought millions of babies were being legally murdered, would you be passionate about it? You don’t have to agree, but an emotionally healthy person will try to understand the other point.”
Wow, nice backhanded slap…
@90 “Do I believe it’s legalized murder, yup.”
Ms Holmes loves that word – “murder”, but nothing divisive here, move along….
@109 “Are you really that jaded? Guess what, I meant it. What am I supposed to say to him? If I would have said, “dam*” you to hell, would that have been better? Guess what? I really meant it. I prayed for him. He didn’t want me to or care if I did and that’s okay. I find your comment telling of you.”
Nice of you to rail against “judgemental”, and then call me “jaded”. Not jaded, but I can spot a false person at one hundred yards, or by their comments. And here is a suggestion for you and your civil discourse, when someone indicates they are NOT receptive to your “proselytizing”, offering your “blessing” [may god have mercy on your soul”] is offensive, just saying
Your “moderate” label is a pretense – like the old analogy a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” you are more RW than not – nothing personal of course. And I hope the blessings of Allah follow you.
Hillary,
She told me she is a conservative. I told Gina I thing she’s a right-leaning moderate.
I might be the one who’s wrong here.
IOW, your argument might be with me, not her.
If calling people who are pro-choice “baby killers” is moderate….maybe she’s moderate. In the meantime, she’s praying for all of our damned souls, so I feel better about it.
I thought this thread was funny, and Onionesque.
No Dan, my disagreement is with Ms Holmes and her preachy “civil discourse” opinions, no matter what she may call herself.
Referring to a woman’s Constitutional right to control her own reproductive decisions as “murder”, “holocaust” …. is reprehensible for a “moderate” or “conservative”.
“Funny, coming from Steve C., but actually you have no idea what I do in that department because I haven’t cared to share it in here.”
Comment by Suzie — February 7, 2013 @ 10:50 am
What we do know is that you bray the loudest about your obsession with abortion but are mighty scant on specifics about what you do to rectify what in your words is murder. If you actually had any skin in the game you would have adopted….Which you didn’t…So you can shut your pious pie-hole now.
For someone who claims to pray the loudest you have remarkably little to show from your close relationship with God other than shaking your rosary beads in one hand and hitting the “send” button with the other.
suz; changing the world one blog post at a time.
Looks like I touched a nerve. Good.
95….it is not tangential discussion of a topic. It is judging and condemning a person for their legally provided choice.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — February 7, 2013 @ 10:42 am
————————-
Kind of like has been done to legal responsible gun owners who have passed background checks, huh. Not so cool when what you fling comes back to you. If the lefties would stop blaming legal responsible gun owners for crazed killers actions and trying to punish them for it then perhaps there could be some meaningful conversation. As it always goes down, it will never happen.
“Good” meaning, good we’re at least talking, and ouch! I’ve had my nerves touched too. I don’t think I’m phoney but it’s okay if you do. I think we all have life experiences that have shaped our perceptions and that’s interesting. It would be a pretty dull place if we all were cloned minds. Thanks again ALL. I’m going to cut out now. I don’t take being right wing as a dig. It’s not an insult to me. And if I say someone’s a liberal, I don’t mean it as an insult. God bless and take care. You’re a passionate bunch. Passion is good! Gina the “phoney moderate” and sinner who is no better than anyone else, just forgiven. I hope I am here too if I’ve hurt any feelings. Peace out
Gina,
Mark Jurkevich, a pal of mine who lives in Poland, is our normal Wednesday guest poster (usually he writes about some aspect of international affairs). He was indisposed this week. He’s might be a wee bit envious when he sees you stoked 115 comments out of this thread!
Looks like I touched a nerve. Good
Gina, if there is one thing that enrages this group more than uncivil discourse, it’s civil discourse.
You have to think how your comments will sound to someone not in tune or agreement with you.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — February 7, 2013 @ 5:01 pm
Pleaseeeeeeeez. . .follow your advice ! LOL
Everyone else. . .pray as you will and tell who you will. . .it is a free
country yet.
He’s might be a wee bit envious when he sees you stoked 115 comments out of this thread!
Comment by Dan Casey — February 7, 2013 @ 10:40 pm
This thread reeks of envy. Welcome Gina.
Symbols, up until now, no one has made a connection between calling a woman who has an abortion part of “a Holocaust” or a “murderer” and the legal responsible gun owners connection to crazed killers having access to guns. Well done. Excellent comparison.
What we do know is that you bray the loudest about your obsession with abortion but are mighty scant on specifics about what you do to rectify what in your words is murder. If you actually had any skin in the game you would have adopted….Which you didn’t
Again, you don’t know what we’ve done because we haven’t seen fit to share our private lives with Blogger Steve C.
Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.-Proverbs 23:9
As I pointed out, Steve C, suzie has very plainly said more than once in the past that she has no children. Unless she now wants to back out of that one.
Comment by Suzie — February 7, 2013 @ 10:48 pm
Looks like I touched a nerve. Good
“Gina, if there is one thing that enrages this group more than uncivil discourse, it’s civil discourse.”
And yes, Saint Maria Goretti, you might try civil discourse yourself…
Sandi you said -”None of us have ever said we “see nothing wrong” with abortion. Abortion is an extreme choice. There is plenty wrong in a world where any woman feels she must choose that option”.
You choosing to blame a world and a godless culture (that you and your like minded relativistic humanist friends have helped create and continue to support) for abortion does not make the act of killing an unborn child any less horrific. You imply by your vague remarks that you DO believe abortion is wrong yet with your actions you support it. That is the same attitude most Germans had during the holocaust. “I personally do not think its right to kill Jews but———–”.
Fill in the blank if you can “It’s ok to kill a baby in its mother’s womb when___________.
Will R – are you opposed to women having access to contraceptives?
Wouldn’t that access to birth control reduce the need for abortions?
Do you favor the Chinese government’s policy of forcing women to limit the number of children they are “allowed” to have?
If you disagree with the Chinese population control – governments forcing women Not to have children – then why would it be all right for a government to force a women to HAVE a child. Two sides of the same coin, no?
Last time suz started quoting scripture on me was when I busted her for lying about going to Zimbabwe on a non-existent Catholic mission trip. I think it’s her default knee jerk reaction when I expose her as a liar and she runs to google a phrase from the book she’s got at home with 7 or 8 years of dust on the cover. Perhaps it’s her Catholic guilt subconsciously trying to cover for her. If gurl went to confession every now and again maybe she could get a little absolution for the sin of lying and wouldn’t be so paranoid about how badly she sucks at imitating someone with a personal relationship with Christ.
Last time suz started quoting scripture on me was when I busted her for lying about going to Zimbabwe on a non-existent Catholic mission trip.
The trip wasn’t sponsored by any organization, nor did I ever say it was.
Stop lying again.
“Funny, coming from Steve C., but actually you have no idea what I do in that department because I haven’t cared to share it in here.”
Come on, suze, in the past you’ve said you have no children. Which is it? Lying some more?
Will R, I did not “blame a world and a godless culture”, nor do I agree we have a Godless culture. But, it is dishonest of you to claim that is the fault of “relativistic humanist” actions. What about the personal liberty, anti-government, anti-society, individual freedoms that the Ayn Rand GOTP pushes? Only someone in deep denial would claim that ideology has had no effect on society or culture. You people do not even support making folks pay for health insurance FGS!
I do not know that anything can “make the act of killing an unborn child any less horrific” for people who choose the fetus over the woman. For those of us who choose the woman you demand be an incubator, the right to privacy and a legal abortion remains something we support.
My remarks have not been “vague”, I know what abortion is. I do not believe it is wrong if it is what the woman wants to do. I am not without sin and I will not cast that stone.
I do not recall the Germans having any qualms about supporting the extermination of the Jews and others and I doubt seriously people like you, Suzie, Frank and Leon would lose a moment’s sleep over the gas chambers for me and my “like minded relativistic humanist friends”, so get off your high horse.
It’s ok to kill a baby in its mother’s womb when the mother makes that choice.
Evidently St Maria Goretti @133 has had a memory lapse when she denied her adventure in Zimbabwe was “sponsored by any organization, nor did I ever say it was.” Comment by Suzie — February 9, 2013 @ 10:24 pm
Well than this must be a lie:
“Accompany a CRS relief team out into the bush. Trust me, hon. YOU are the one who lacks education”
Comment by Suzie — December 10, 2011 @ 4:51 pm
Doesn’t CRS = Catholic Relief Services???
“Into the bush”? Lolol. Missed that gem.
“Evidently St Maria Goretti @133 has had a memory lapse”
Hard to keep your stories straight when you’re 5 different blog personalities.
Well than this must be a lie:
Um, no. As I said, we went to Harare on our own, then some contacts from CRS took us to a few places. But even had CRS sponsored us, so what? Not sure why the interest on this minor point, but thanks for taking all that time to look it up.
suz, you totally suck when you lie. Unfortunately, this natural state (for you, anyway) accounts for about 97% of the neck-puke you throw up on Dan’s blog culminating with the multitude of times gurl has a snit and noisily proclaims “I’m outa here!”
We should be so lucky. Now stop it with this Zimbabwe nonsense; I’m even starting to feel sorry for you. This is almost as dopey as the time you said the hubster and you jetted up to NYC for the day. Or the time you insisted your house had 4, count ‘em four AC units. Lest we forget about the time you claimed you had a master’s in engineering. And who could forget your Oscar worthy soliloquy about the fried fish joint in NW that hubby’s bidness did gratis ac duct for, except they were closed for like a year and a half. And then there was the small detail about how the hubster’s business grew from installing ac ducts and fixing up broken water heaters for poor black folk into a “top 25” Roanoke area business. There’s also the whopper about Hawaii. And who could forget about being for the GC before you were against the GC? And what about that Granddaddy of them all, that yarn you spun about Mitt winning in a landslide? A landslide, I tell you! What a thigh slapper that one was! And don’t even get me started on $50 hot dawgs!
Anywho, you get the point; you totally sucked at lying when you got here, you totally suck at lying today, and if you continue to resist my best efforts at driving you out of here just from the shear embarrassment of getting caught red handed lying so damn much, chances are about, oh, 99.9% that you’ll still totally suck at lying in the future. So just stop it, ok?