For what’s it’s worth on the Friday OPEN thread
Shot by Dan on Campbell Avenue Thursday
“A nickel ain’t worth a dime anymore.”
Yogi Berra
February 8, 2013 - 10:00 AM
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February 8, 2013 - 10:00 AM
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Friday, May 24, 2013
THE ROANOKE TIMES
The Virginia Petroleum, Convenience and Grocery Association has admitted that the gas tax needs to be increased:
“The Virginia Petroleum, Convenience and Grocery Association issued a statement Thursday supporting an increase in state’s gasoline tax from 17.5 cents per gallon cents (to 23.5). It’s the first time in the organization’s 65-year history that it has endorsed an increase in the gas tax. The organization represents more than 400 businesses that own and supply most of the Virginia convenience stores that sell gasoline.”
Meanwhile, McD continues to distract people with his harebrained scheme.
Westboro Baptist Church is promoting their new Christian dating website… does it ever end with these people?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XbqiiY_Pam8
That one was really good, Justin.
Dan
Did you take those pictures in Canada?
Election official (Democrat) votes twice in the last election
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/340174/voter-fraud-never-happens-keeps-coming-back-john-fund
WOW, 19 out of 100 million, we gotta nip it!
What is up with those pics Dan….?
Wouldn’t keeping part of the money “for secretary” be considered paying her?
What is up with those pics Dan….?
Sandi
Sandi
Those pics are a view of liberal heaven. Socialized medicine will result in butcher doctors(hence the first sign) and bloodthirsty lawyers will have a field day in court prosecuting incompetent doctors and then collecting the patients reward(second sign).
Happy Valentine’s Day to myself…
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/71402_4920198595417_867341961_n.jpg
Congrats Dan and Sandi! I see in Mr. Dorner, one of your like minded-souls made the papers!
http://weaselzippers.us/2013/02/07/piers-morgan-fan-goes-on-shooting-rampage-killing-three/
And, a NRA-hater to boot! You must be so proud!
Have a great day!
Mrs. Saunders, I seem to remember some people who wanted to know of 1 case of voter fraud. Now that cases of voter fraud have been shown, it’s a meaningless number. So what you are saying is because it’s currently ONLY 19 out of 100 million it doesn’t matter and by extension every vote isn’t important. It’s not like she voted multiple times on local issues, or where there 100 million votes in Hamilton County Ohio? I do wonder how many democrats have their picture on facebook for everyone to see but become so shy about their picture on a voter ID card. Oh well must be a phobia or something.
Show me where Hannity took any responsibility for this guy and I will gladly take the heat for Dorner’s mental illness, walt.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/Jul/28/church-shooting-police-find-manifesto-suspects-car/
Keeping a good thought for everyone up north in the path of this monster storm. Stay safe, people.
Walt, that seems to me to be out of line. I don’t think for one instant that any sane person would condone these acts much less the people that you mention.
Mrs. Saunders, I do think instead of constantly talking about punishing law abiding citizens by restricting there freedom of what types of equipment they choose to own. We should be having a serious discussion about how we handle people with mental health issues. It seems to me that everytime we have a massacre, there seems to be a psycology type person who knew about them. Mr. Dormer I think will most likely fall under the same catagory of Mr. McVey. McVey was angry over Waco. It appears that Mr. Dormer is angry at the LAPD. I feel confident it will come out that somebody knew what he was up to but didn’t think he would go through with it. It always seems to.
“Dan
Did you take those pictures in Canada?”
–Terps
I want you to know Terps, I tried to hard to take those pix up there. I scoured the parking lot at Mt. Tremblant, then went over to Toronto and walked all the way round Eaton Center. Next I headed to Calgary, then Vancouver. No dice.
So I caught a ferry over to Victoria. A guy in a gas station there gave me directions to a $1-per-day honor system campground about 14 miles north of town. He had seen this car there, he said. But they were gone by the time I got there.
No, I snapped these pix as I was driving back across the USA, to Roanoke.
I took’em in Vail. Go figure!
It’s clear that Mr. Dormer should not have guns. It’s also clear that there are many powerful interests in this country who will continue to vehemently oppose any and all legislation that could prevent people like him from getting them.
Very nice, Jack! I got a few Glock mags a couple weeks ago, well ahead of the schedule I was initially given. Once we get a decent and somewhat dry/warm weekend, I’m heading to the range to give them a few run throughs.
GO84, I believe the link mentioned that the cases were being looked at and some charges have been brought. Do you want me to nail them to a tree as well? We have never said that voter fraud does not happen, I specifically have said that the absentee ballot system desperately needs to be looked at in fact. But yes, in something this massive, scale matters. Turning the whole process into a “prove it” situation for millions when only a handful are known to have committed fraud is shooting flies with an elephant gun IMO.
GO84, I think instead of whining that gun control is “punishing law abiding citizens by restricting there freedom of what types of equipment they choose to own”, you should be able to realize that society has made the laws it sees fit for a reason. Not liking them all is not part of the equation. The freedom of what types of equipment to choose also is there for the angry criminal now. THAT is the problem. There would still be hundreds and hundreds of “types of equipment” for gun lovers and self-defense guards, and yes, angry criminals to choose from, even if we banned all the guns some think of as “assault weapons”.
I am not so quick to say that all people who kill, even the mass shooters, were actually, medically and certifiably “mentally ill”. When they take their life or are killed, that is supposition. Our “having a serious discussion about how we handle people with mental health issues” will involve spending billions of dollars no right winger will ever sanction so you need to face some reality. It is far more efficient to restrict an inanimate object than to restrict human beings.
Anger, is not mental illness. Maybe we need to reconsider how we handle angry, disgruntled, anti-power, anti-control people?
Here are some pictures of people having fun. This may not be your cup of tea, but they don’t seem to be involved in massacres. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=162956
I wonder how many have ever heard of Mike Dillon who owns an ammo company. He is probably the most armed person in our country, and yet he doesn’t seem to be massacring people either. These all appear to be law abiding citizens. I heard that Adam Lanza broke several dozen laws, which didn’t seem to stop him. How many people thought that he had mental issues and no one was able to help this young man. Shouldn’t we be asking why? Criminals never have problems obtaining guns. Mexico has a strict gun ban, what a wonderful place it is right now with the drug cartels.
Here is an article discussing England and Austalia.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323777204578195470446855466.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop
“It’s clear that Mr. Dormer should not have guns.”
He was a policeman until last week.
It seems clear Dorner should not have guns. As a Navy lieutenant decorated for his marksmanship, who served overseas, honorably discharged, no record of institutionalization for mental illness – there is not one single reason for this guy not to have a houseful of AR whatevers. He’s highly trained with his weapons and is a prototypical law-abiding gun owner. Not one thing about him disqualifies him from owning as many guns as he wants. Welcome to America.
So restricting a human being from owning an object, restricts the object not the human. So it’s the gun that causes the killing of people. I wonder how people were murdered for thousands of years before the gun was invented.
Enjoyed the discussion, but I’ve got to go.
I personally am less concerned about voter fraud – it’s election fraud like that perpetrated by many republican governors – voter suppression and disenfranchising voters through legislative bills and rules – that is more problematic during elections.
It would take many many people to illegally vote and change an election…one vote amongst the millions of votes cast is decidedly voter “fraud”, but hardly of the magnitude of election fraud. It was estimated by the Brennan Center for Justice that because of new voter ID laws, and the cornucopia of other laws used to discourage voters, as many as five million eligible voters could have met difficulties on Election Day.
“Voter fraud” is a joke. What, there were 19 instances out of 135 million votes? The fact that the GOP continues to fixate upon this is ludicrous. It’s like rushing to a doc because you’ve got a pimple on your butt — never mind that lung cancer!
The ONLY thing good about it is that it exposes the people who are whining about it as completely and totally unfit at prioritizing and acting on problems in this country.
Love the pics. As far as medical care, I would settle for getting what I pay for. As it is now, I always feel like I am getting fleeced, even when the outcome is good. I had a couple of surgical procedures last year. Even when I asked the doctors “how much will this cost”, it was impossible to get a straight answer. And the bills. You get multiple bills from the surgeon, a bill from the anesthesiologist, one from the hospital, etc. It took a fair amount of time to reconcile what the hospital charges with what insurance pays, and the remainder that I was responsible for, which was not trivial by any means.
Some large companies are negotiating fixed prices for common surgeries with hospitals that are known to have good outcomes. Not every employee qualifies, based on medical history, but for those who do, both the employee and his company can save a boatload of money. I think it’s the wave of the future. Until we tackle the cost part of health care, we are just pouring money down a rat hole.
What department was he serving with, Henry? He was fired from the LAPD in 2008…and I haven’t seen anything in the news mentioning a current employer, only that he was a reservist and former LAPD officer.
“The ONLY thing good about it is that it exposes the people who are whining about it as completely and totally unfit at prioritizing and acting on problems in this country.”
Dan
I beg to differ. The problem with the country is that people are voting to increase benefits for themselves that we can no longer afford. The only way to stop the madness is to stop electing democrats. People who are too stupid or lazy to get an ID always vote for Democrats.
So, Voter ID laws are priority #1 for a good reason.
“He was a policeman until last week.”
-Comnent by Henry @1:15
No he wasn’t, Henry. Dorner was fired from the LAPD in 2008.
He was fired from the police force in 2008. He was a reservist until last week.
Look at Jim Crow ride again!
DAN: “The ONLY thing good about [THE SILLY WHINING ABOUT VOTER FRAUD] is that it exposes the people who are whining about it as completely and totally unfit at prioritizing and acting on problems in this country.”
TERPS: “I beg to differ. The problem with the country is that people are voting to increase benefits for themselves that we can no longer afford. The only way to stop the madness is to stop electing democrats. People who are too stupid or lazy to get an ID always vote for Democrats. So, Voter ID laws are priority #1 for a good reason.”
Terps, you should be voting Democrat! The GOP has proven over and over again it can’t be trusted to mind this country’s fiscal store — its track record on that is long and blotched with red ink. That is the reality.
Beyond that, I’m stunned by the cynicism of your comment, given that the putative problem is 19 votes out of 130 million cast. The scientist in you has got to be screaming, “BUT VOTER ID WON’T SOLVE MY PROBLEM!!!” Thus, what you’re advocating is unfairly disenfranchising voters to cure a problem that you wrongly view as unfair. That’s despicable, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
On another topic. For anyone interested in which pesticides are on non-organic fruits and vegetables, here is an interesting website. The alphabetical list is an easy way to check.
http://www.whatsonmyfood.org/index.jsp
Go84, if you are going to be silly, you should go.
Of course restricting an object also is a restriction on whatever human being wants it, but it is easier to restrict the object across the board, than to do the deep invasive and subjective screening required to determine who among those human beings has the serious potential to snap one day and kill one or many people. Do YOU know of a test for it?
Unfettered gun access allows criminals as easy a path as legal, law abiding gun owners. It just does.
I am not a firearms person, as all here know. It seems to me there are a number of false assumptions inherent in all the “guns for self defense” arguments.
1. The owner will be the one holding the weapon when it is used against another human.
2. The weapon will be fired at a “bad guy”.
3. That the weapon will be readily available for defense if a bad guy does break in.
I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind, but it doesn’t take too much thought to understand how things can go wrong.
1. The gun is use by one angry family member against another.
2. The bad guy overcomes the gun owner and uses the weapon against him.
3. The weapon is locked up for safety (e.g. children in the house) and is unavailable if someone tries to break in.
” Thus, what you’re advocating is unfairly disenfranchising voters to cure a problem that you wrongly view as unfair. That’s despicable, and you should be ashamed of yourself.”
Dan, the country will cease to function when half of the electorate figures out that they can live off the other half. And the left has an insatiable appetite for more benefits.
Again, people too lazy or stupid to get an ID SHOULD be “disenfranchised” because they have “disenfranchised” themselves from society.
“Again, people too lazy or stupid to get an ID SHOULD be “disenfranchised” because they have “disenfranchised” themselves from society.”
–Terps
Except, that won’t work to accomplish your goals, terps, and you know it. It hasn’t worked in the last 2 presidential elections.
SO . . . we need to game the system even more. I know! Let’s CHANGE THE ID REQUIREMENTS EVERY YEAR, OR FOR EVERY ELECTION! That’ll keep the riff-raff so confused that sooner or later, they won’t be paying attention, and they’ll get disenfranchised! (“SORRY, buddy, you can’t vote. No, you can’t used that ID that you used last time! We changed the rules, ha ha!”)
The fact is, Terps, Virginia changed the rules for the 2012 election. AND NOW, they’re changing them again for the 2013 election. You like that, and you support because, you believe, this end justifies that means.
OK, Terps and others. Get this straight. Social Security and Medicare are NOT welfare. I personally paid into these programs for 40 years or so, often at or near the limit for Social Security. I, and most of you, paid for our parents’ generation’s benefits, Now it is, or should be, our turn. I believe I am entitled to get something for my money. For most folks 65 or older, Medicare is the only game in town for healthcare insurance. Individuals plan their finances around its availability, and it is the rare company indeed that provides any healthcare insurance after the retiree turns 65.
Mrs. Saunders, I wasn’t intending to be silly. I just wrote what you wrote differently. Unfettered gun access allows law abiding gun owners as easy a path as criminals. A criminal by definition will not obey the very laws you create for safety. It is better to free the guilty than jail the innocent. You in essence want to punish those that have done nothing wrong in order to feel safe. Those that give up their freedom for safety get neither.
@Dan ““Voter fraud” is a joke. What, there were 19 instances out of 135 million votes? The fact that the GOP continues to fixate upon this is ludicrous. It’s like rushing to a doc because you’ve got a pimple on your butt — never mind that lung cancer!”
One could say the same thing about fixating on the transgressions of a few CHP holders who commit crimes.
If a meager few instances of voter fraud are not indicative of a problem with our voting process, a handful of CHP holders committing crimes does not indicate a problem with how CHPs are issued or where they permit one to carry.
When your “freedom” hinges on owning a military styled semi-automatic rifle, you do not have much freedom to start with.
“Unfettered” gun rights make it easier for every mentally ill person and criminal to have an unimpeded market of guns to choose from.
If gun control did not work there would be machine gun mass shootings and gangs with RPG’s and grenades. Gun control does work but the gun rights advocates and the NRA make sure that the same pipeline that makes a law abiding gun owner able to freely access and purchase guns does the same for criminals. All we can do is wait for the carnage and look for the bad guys.
Part of the reason that many ask “are the thousands of gun regulation we have right now not working” is because the ATF has only had an “acting director” due to Congress’ incompetence for years and the NRA efforts to block effective law enforcement tools.
There is nothing that will prevent all violence but we have already proven that we can remove the worst and most damage inducing guns from our streets.
We already proved gun control works. When gun shooters kill as many people as car drivers, and that IS the direction this is heading, sensible people see the need to start looking at universal background checks and stiffer penalties for straw purchases (which means gun tracking), and removing some of the most often used guns in such terror activity.
This is not rocket science.
Ah yes, it’s wonderful to hear former U.S. Senate candidate & Republican Presidential candidate Allen Keys speak. He states current Republican values and ideas. Perhaps Fox News can get him to replace Dick Morris & Karl Rove. God preserve us.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/alan-keyes-making-sense
Maybe this guy and the Virginia Republicans should get together on how to improve public K-12 education in Virginia. Just another mainline Republican idea.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/feb/05/bill-requires-all-idaho-kids-read-atlas-shrugged/
Another example of mainline Republican thought right now.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/swanson-wombs-women-birth-control-embedded-dead-babies
Finally, this Republican legislator from Mississippi clearly shows why Mississippi ranks dead last in science instruction. How do we elect these people??
http://www.wapt.com/news/politics/Mississippi-lawmaker-proposes-bill-banning-human-animal-hybrids/-/9156836/18360138/-/item/0/-/qe8iuo/-/index.html
Terps is admitting that the GOP can’t run a winning candidate, and the only way to get a republican win is to keep people from voting.
Finally, this Republican legislator from Mississippi clearly shows why Mississippi ranks dead last in science instruction. How do we elect these people??
–Ron
Wait . . . you mean they teach actual science in Mississippi schools? I thought the curricula were limited to the the subarea of physics regarding casino riverboats floating in manmade ponds. They’re getting pretty damn progressive!
How did fugitive mobster Whitey Bulger manage to by 15 at least handguns and 2 shotguns during his 16 years on the run? Sounds like he got’em at gun shows.
Perhaps Terps is onto something. I wonder if the Dems would ever have the cojones to take it a step further, and require intelligence tests for candidates? It would vastly limit the Republican field, judging by the current crop in office now.
Terps keeps spouting the 47% meme. How’d that work for you last time?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/08/joe-walsh-michelle-obama-_n_2646699.html
“Tea Party Favorite” is FCC acceptable code for several other less acceptable descriptions.
Dan, only honest citizens buy guns at gun shows. Don’t you know that?
Jordan Dorner. Backs Hillary in 2016. Backs Obama and his gun fiasco. An extreme left-wing ideologue gone mad. As of this posting, Mr. Dorner is hiding somewhere in California after murdering 3 people. Armed and extremely dangerous. Ex-military, Ex-Policeman. Decided to kill a daughter of a man who was on the Police force that helped see that Mr. Dorner was releived of hi duties. Jordan Dorner…another leftist mass-murderer. The man has obviously been `sick` for a very long time, as were the vast backlog of leftist mass murderers we`ve witnessed in the past few years.
Hillary’s approval rating is over 60%. She’s the most popular politician on the national scene. Everyone supports her…why would Dorner be any different.
Comment by applewood — February 9, 2013 @ 9:21 am
Okay let’s play…although you presented no links to your suppositions, here’s a few for you [with links] to look over – you know a good look at the “RW murdering kind”…
☻Nothing like a RW murderer to commit the crime in a church…
2009 – The killing, of Dr. Tiller came about 16 years after Tiller survived another shooting outside his Wichita clinic- his murder took place shortly after 10 a.m. Sunday at Reformation Lutheran Church. Officers found the 67-year-old dead in the foyer, police said. If Tiller was killed because of his work, he would be the fourth U.S. physician killed over abortion since 1993
Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry, who is no longer affiliated with the group, called Tiller “a mass murderer.”
Or,
☻RW murderers like James Kopp
In 1998, a sniper killed Dr. Barnett Slepian in his Amherst, New York, home. Anti-abortion activist James Kopp was later arrested in France and is serving life in prison.
Or,
☻RW ideologues
In a 1998 bombing by Eric Rudolph, – who included abortion among his list of anti-government grievances -. a nurse at the Birmingham, Alabama, clinic was maimed and an off-duty police officer was killed
Rudolph admitted to that attack and three other bombings — including the 1996 attack on the Olympic games in Atlanta, Georgia — and is currently serving life in prison.
Or,
☻RW former minister who committed murder
In 1994, Dr. John Bayard Britton and one of his volunteer escorts were shot and killed outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida. Paul Hill, a former minister, was convicted of the killings and executed in 2003.
Or,
☻Just another day in the RW killings…
And in 1993, another doctor, David Gunn, was shot to death outside another Pensacola clinic. His killer, Michael Griffin, is serving a life sentence.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/index.html
Or,
☻The typical RW anarchist
Four army soldiers killed a former comrade and his girlfriend to protect an anarchist militia group they formed that stockpiled assault weapons and plotted a range of anti-government attacks, prosecutors told a judge Monday.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/27/soldiers-fort-stewart-murder-plot
And,
☻Lest we forget the Christian anti-government ex-military guy…
In 1995 Timothy McVeigh was responsible for detonating a truck bomb in front of the federal building in Oklahoma City killing 168 people, children included, and injured over 800 others. McVeigh was a militia movement sympathizer who sought revenge against the federal government…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
I will go one for one with you all day long as there is a vast list of RW crazies who kill with impunity – in large numbers and small – usually with the excuse of doing “god’s work” or fighting for “liberty”.
#54 Good lord, applewood, you came back to post that POS? Seriously? Sad.
Actually VT Hokie, I don’t think it is the proportion of bad actors in the CHP crowd that has been the subject of Dan’s ire, so much as the system that will enable more of them. If bullets did not travel past your personal space or could not be more deadly than an ineligible vote, you might have a point.
The “meager few instances of voter fraud” are investigated and can result in a felony conviction in addition to losing your right to vote just as the “handful of CHP holders committing crimes” can result in a felony conviction and losing your CHP. The problems both sides are complaining about however are not comparable because we advocate a better system for granting a CHP (like not just taking an online test) while they advocate disenfranchising legally eligible voters by making the voting process harder not better. The “problems” are similar, the solutions being asked for are not. Not at all.
I don’t think applewood realizes how desperate he sounds.
And applewood, I will tell you the same thing I told walt. Show me where the right wing took any responsibility for this guy and I will gladly take the heat for Dorner’s mental illness.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/Jul/28/church-shooting-police-find-manifesto-suspects-car/
While you are looking, find that “vast backlog of leftist mass murderers we`ve witnessed in the past few years” and list them.
Does it even register that discussing the opinions, motivations, integrity and credibility, much less the “politics” of a demented, insane, evil or psychotic individual is very much a waste of time?
That you believe that a person’s killing spree is the “result” of their political or religious beliefs is an offense in itself. There is no political or religious justification for killing innocent people. Not one and not a million. That such an action is decided upon and taken is an aberration, abomination and abdication of the political or religious teachings, not the enactment of it!
If what you read and agree with, are even devoted to, leads you to harm or kill people, you are sick and twisted, not motivated and devoted to a cause. That there might be those that goad and welcome such violence is also no excuse. They are wrong too, and sure, call them out on it, but they do not pull the trigger.
Killers are evil, twisted to the soul. They are either psychotic or a psychopath, they are not normal people expressing their beliefs. What they “say”, like the fiction of Ayn Rand, is not credible, should not be considered, debated or respected as worthy of examination.
What “makes” a person harm or kill others is a sick abnormality not the expected reaction to the thoughts or opinions of anyone. Dorner did not kill anyone because he “supports” Hillary and climate change, he did so because he has lost his mind.
RE: Sandi Saunders @ 3:46 pm
The “problems” are similar, the solutions being asked for are not. Not at all.
——————
Sandi,
You are right.
I don’t know of anyone who is asking for citizens to pay for and take extensive / expensive training in order to be authorized to vote.
I don’t know of anyone who is asking for the creation of a tougher test to vote — to be taken at the perspective voter own expense.
I don’t know of anyone who is asking for more extensive background checks on voters at their expense.
I don’t know of anyone who is asking for a periodic renewal of any or all of the above in order to vote.
——
Disclaimer: I would not support that any more that I support such draconian requirements on ant Constitutional right.
Question: Why would anyone?
Re: Sandi Saunders @ 4:27 pm
Does it even register that discussing the opinions, motivations, integrity and credibility, much less the “politics” of a demented, insane, evil or psychotic individual is very much a waste of time?
—————
Yup.
I have never understood why the pro-prohibition / more restriction on firearms folk continue to do it.
IMHO, we all need to focus on the problem of dealing with “demented, insane, evil or psychotic individuals” not chant the pro-prohibition / more restriction on firearms mantra.
Dave Hicks, I don’t know anyone stupid enough to think a vote can kill anyone either.
But they most assuredly want citizens to pay for and go through an extra process in order to be authorized to vote. And since their holy grail DMV ID does expire, they are asking for a periodic renewal of the ID at the expense and effort of the voter.
I do not consider eliminating the online test to be “draconian” and I am truly sorry you do.
We concentrate on “prohibition / more restriction on firearms” precisely because we have no test for demented, insane, evil or psychotic until there is a reason to do so. That is where the rights of the individual trample all over your gun rights. Few, if any people are or would be for such restrictions if these criminal, demented, insane, evil or psychotic people did not have such an easy time getting guns thanks to gun rights.
Re: Sandi Saunders @ 4:48 pm
Although I am in favor of Constitutional carry, I’d compromise at the same level of requirements needed for a cHP as are need for a DMV ID card.
Do we have a compromise position we can both work toward?
I actually do think it is important in many cases [see post #56] to discuss the motivation of killers. Those who espouse abortion as “murder” have no problem murdering those Doctors who work in clinics which allow women to make choices about their own bodies.
Putting targets on political opponents [Sarah Palin] can lead to events such as the Gabrielle Gifford shooting.
Constant talk against the federal government allows the Timothy McVeighs of the world to justify their horrific actions that caused the murders of dozens.
I believe Words matte; Motives matter.
Re: Sandi Saunders @ 4:51 pm
Sounds like do what’s easy not to what’s right.
Re: Dave Hicks @ 4:58 pm
Hey!
The solution just came to me. Let’s pass a law that anyone with a DMV issued Driver’s License or ID card or the equivalent from any State can carry concealed in Virginia.
We might be getting some where.
Make it a gun without bullets and it is a deal.
Re: Sandi Saunders @ 5:14 pm
Why does a “poison pill” tend to get introduce whenever sides appear to be reaching a compromise?
.
.
Dave Hicks:
“Although I am in favor of Constitutional carry, I’d compromise at the same level of requirements needed for a cHP as are need for a DMV ID card.
Do we have a compromise position we can both work toward?”
Dave, we already have Constitutional carry, it’s just not recognized for discreet carry, yet. The other side simply favors government intervention in whether or not we can wear a jacket.
Exactly, John. If I don’t have a permit, it’s not carrying the gun with me that is illegal, it’s the fact that I put on a jacket or a sweater.
“The “problems” are similar, the solutions being asked for are not. Not at all.”
Yes. The “problems” are similar. In that in both cases the supposed problem is non-existent.
Dan once launched a series of blog posts titled “Great Moments in Concealed Carry”. His point, I think anyway, was that not every single CHP holder is a “law-abiding citizen”.
That is effectively a straw man argument though, because no one, at least that I can recall, has ever made that claim. All that has ever been stated, by myself and others, is that less than 1% of CHP holders are ever responsible for the death of another with their firearm. That is not a claim of “all”, but it is certainly tantamount to “most”.
True, voter fraud isn’t deadly. But equally true, our current requirements for issuing CHPs hasn’t resulted in any deaths. You can’t point to even one shooting where the CHP enabled someone to kill another, and that the lack of a CHP would have prevented it. Voter fraud isn’t deadly, CHPs are not deadly.
Bottom line, in both cases, you have people offering solutions that are looking for problems.
“I do not consider eliminating the online test to be “draconian” and I am truly sorry you do.”
Case in point. Precisely what problem would eliminating the online test be solving? What specific harm has come from allowing the online test? What measurable difference would it make in reducing violence?
A solution looking for a problem.
Actually VT Hokie, unless you are dismissing the “law abiding citizen” mantra, there have been instances where “the CHP enabled someone to kill another, and that the lack of a CHP would have prevented it”. In the several cases we have discussed here, if the CHP had not been issued and the person had not been carrying a gun, someone would not have ended up dead. (the grandmother with the gun in her purse, the father with the gun in the car…) You know this. You also know that the straw man is comparing the permit process to carry a lethal weapon and the voter ID efforts is hooey.
If the permit process cannot withstand a debate on its own, it is not worth having. There is no need except for the straw one, to even try and compare it to anything else.
“(the grandmother with the gun in her purse, the father with the gun in the car…) ”
In either case, would it have mattered if they received their CHPs after taking an online test rather than in a classroom? Dan usually focuses on the lack of being able to demonstrate “competency” with a gun before getting a CHP. In neither case you cited would this have made any difference.
“You also know that the straw man is comparing the permit process to carry a lethal weapon and the voter ID efforts is hooey.”
No, it’s not. It is the same logic being used. The logic is rejected for one situation but accepted for another. In both cases, a “problem” is identified by the actions of a few people that are but a drop in the pond compared to people who do not commit those actions.
It’s also worth noting that a person can “carry a lethal weapon” without a permit. The permit only addresses the manner in which it can be carried.
QUESTION: “You also know that the straw man is comparing the permit process to carry a lethal weapon and the voter ID efforts is hooey.”
ANSWER, FROM VT HOKIE: “No, it’s not. It is the same logic being used. The logic is rejected for one situation but accepted for another. In both cases, a “problem” is identified by the actions of a few people that are but a drop in the pond compared to people who do not commit those actions.”
I understand where you’re going with this answer. Where I think the analogy fails is what the permit accomplishes. The CHP process in Virginia grants a state license for people to carry a weapon that can kill and maim (or yes, defend), or injure the carrier, by shooting himself in a Lynchburg restaurant as he sidled up to the bar for some more beer (to use an infamous example).
A voter registration card is a more abstract thing, which never empowers anyone to hurt themsleves or others, whether deliberately or by accident.
Oh good. More gun talk.
“In either case, would it have mattered if they received their CHPs after taking an online test rather than in a classroom? Dan usually focuses on the lack of being able to demonstrate “competency” with a gun before getting a CHP. In neither case you cited would this have made any difference.”
VTHokie, the point you’re making is not an invalid one. You have read the law, I’m sure. So you know that it requires a demonstration of handgun “competency.” The GA in its wisdom (snark) saw fit it define “competency” as taking a hunter safety course (classroom) which doesn’t require gun handling. Then, in 2009, they further watered down the requirement for demonstrating “competency” by requiring that judges accept the online course as “proof of competency.”
We both know that neither the classroom course or the online course fit that bill. Still, the classroom course is better because attendees can at least ask questions. They can’t do that online.
VT Hokie:
“A solution looking for a problem.”
+1
“A solution looking for a problem.”
Statement by VT Hokie, endorsed by John Wilburn
JW, gunners have been railing on car deaths for years right here on this blog. Well, now that gun deaths are eclipsing car deaths in a number of states, and now that gun deaths are on a track to eclipse car deaths nationwide in a few years, you declare it “a solution looking for a problem?”
Don’t you think death by car is a problem anymore?
Dan:
“Don’t you think death by car is a problem anymore?”
I’m glad for the safety advancements in cars like sealbelts, air bags, and side impact door beams. Likewise, I’m glad for redundant safeties like firing pin blocks, grip safeties, and better designed holsters for guns. Both have been effective at reducing accidents.
I take measures of prevention everytime I get into my truck to help prevent getting killed by my or another driver’s vehicle and I take measures to prevent being killed by my gun or the gun of another.
My issue with deaths by car is how I’ve never heard of any outcry in my life to ban them, even the sportscars that supposedly no one needs, no matter how many fatalities we see. Why is that? Think how many lives we could save by banning cars. And it would be healthier for the planet. Why aren’t more people on board with that?
Dan:
“A voter registration card is a more abstract thing, which never empowers anyone to hurt themsleves or others, whether deliberately or by accident.”
Oh, I beg to differ.
.
JW, You have never heard me call for a ban on guns, either.
“My issue with deaths by car is how I’ve never heard of any outcry in my life to ban them, even the sportscars that supposedly no one needs, …”
In fact, John W, there certainly have been calls in the past to outlaw enormous SUVs that tend to maim and kill people at a higher rate in accidents, as well as bans on or changes to cars like the Corvair or Pinto that had proven safety problems. There are also limits on trucks and what cars can be considered street legal.
Personally, I almost never hear of anybody seriously calling for an outright ban on guns. Can you provide some examples of serious, truly theatening attempts to ban all guns?