Sunday’s column: PFLAG’s coming back in the Star City
Community.pflag.org | Altered by Dan
A couple of years ago, Tegan Edelstein, then 15, informed her mom and dad, Carolyn and Eugene Edelstein, that she was a lesbian.
“I was sort of shocked and stunned at first,” Carolyn Edelstein told me. Questions swirled through her mind, such as: At that young age, how could Tegan know what her sexual orientation was?
“It took me a few months to accept it,” Carolyn Edelstein said. ” Once I did accept it, I decided to support her. That was the very best way to deal with it.”
Unluckily for the Roanoke couple, there was no local chapter of Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays at the time. An earlier PFLAG chapter, established in the early 1990s, disbanded eight years ago. That’s about to change.
The Edelsteins and some others are involved in re-establishing PFLAG here in Roanoke. About 25 people showed up at the first organizational meeting Jan. 10. The next one is Feb. 21, and it’s open to anyone who’s interested.
The first meeting included some familiar faces in Roanoke’s gay community, such as Rev. Joe Cobb, Pastor of Metropolitan Community Church in Southeast Roanoke, which has many lesbians and gays in its congregation.
There were newer faces, too, such as Shelley Ionescu of Roanoke County. She has a 17-year-old transgender daughter, who was born a son and came out last year.
“It was a hard thing for me to comes to terms with, with my child being transgender, rather than being gay,” said Ionescu, an occupational therapist who works with students in public schools. “At first I thought, ‘gosh, why can’t you just be gay?’
“I tried to find a PFLAG chapter in Roanoke and I couldn’t find one,” she said. It left her feeling quite alone while she served, with little support, as “a sort of a clearinghouse for my family and friends who had questions.”
“I tried to find a PFLAG chapter in Roanoke and I couldn’t find one,” she said. It left her feeling quite alone while she served, with little support, as “a sort of a clearinghouse for my family and friends who had questions.”
Such children — and their parents — face myriad issues. They’re more likely to be bullied in school. Their suicide rate is much higher. In some cases, their own parents reject them.
An offshoot of gay rights group Roanoke Pride Inc. called DESTINY was established for young people a little more than a year ago. The acronym stands for Diversity, Education & Support To INspiring Youth. The 15-member group meets twice monthly, said Leslie Graye Miller, president of Roanoke Pride.
But some of those members are still in the closet, guarding secrets from their families, and PFLAG is the kind organization that could help them come out, she said.
Cobb, the pastor of Metropolitan Community Church, said PFLAG has four chief purposes: education, advocacy, outreach and support. An overarching goal is to help others “to understand and be more welcoming of lesbians, gays, bisexuals and trasngendered poeple in their lives.”
According to the national organization, there are 11 PFLAG chapters now in Virginia: Alexandria, Winchester, Norfolk, Charlottesville, Richmond, Keysville, Floyd, Abingdon, the New River Valley, Martinsville and Danville.
Roanoke’s original chapter formed in the early 1990s after Mary Boenke, a retired psychotherapist, moved to the Roanoke Valley with her husband. Shortly before that, their college-student daughter had revealed to them that she was a lesbian.
In those days, Boenke was helping organize workshops on a variety of topics at Hollins University. So she pitched the university administrators on a workshop for parents and friends of lesbians and gays, and they agreed.
“There were six brave people in the workshop, here in the middle of the Bible Belt,” the Vinton woman recalled. It became the launch of Roanoke’s founding PFLAG chapter. Boenke went on to become a regional PFLAG coordinator for Virginia, West Virginia, Delaware and Maryland.
Over the next decade or so, the local group grew. Its monthly meetings at the Unitarian Universalist Church on Grandin Road eventually numbered 30 to 35 regular attendees. But in 2005 the chapter withered, following the sudden death of a key member.
By then, Boenke said, the Metropolitan Community Church was well established, and society had made important strides in accepting gay people.
Toward the end, “when we did get new parents, at least they didn’t come in crying,” Boenke told me. “They were aware of the fact that gays are among us, and their child was not a freak.”
But there still are parents out there, like Ionescu and the Edelsteins, who have struggled to come to grips with learning about their children’s sexual orientation. Some take it much harder than others.
“These parents who disown their own children because of their sexuality, I think that’s just absurd. They’re still your children,” Edelstein told me.
“How does that child help their parents understand what they’re going through? And their friends and family?” Ionescu asked.
“This will help save some lives,” she added. “This is something that’s really important for Roanoke.”
February 3, 2013 - 6:00 AM
Link to rest of story just takes you to a page listing all of the columns you’ve done. :/
Thanks Dan for this great article about this wonderful new addition to our LGBT community resources. Congrats to those who spearheaded this initiative to bring PFLAG back to Roanoke. It is surely needed and will be appreciated by many I am sure. It is through groups such as this that we, as an oppressed minority, can educate and break walls of misunderstanding and intolerance down for the betterment of all of Roanoke and beyond. Onward!!
Joe Cobb isn’t gay. He was married to a woman for years and has two children from that relationship. It dismisses the notion that he had no attractions at all toward the opposite sex.
And he was a pastor then too.
Henry, who are you to tell someone who or what they are? I have met and spoke with Pastor Cobb, and I am pretty sure he is a gay man because… that’s what he said. I wish there were more tolerant and well spoken Pastors like him. This country wouldn’t be in half the mess its in now.
I am really glad there is such a great religious leader in this community to support the Christian LGBT community.
Right on, Frank House! I hope we get a chance to work together soon!
Henry I would encourage you to read Pastor Joe Cobbs book “Our Family Outing” which he co-wrote with his amazingly supportive former wife! That is exactly what this article is about…people coming together and showing unconditional love and support for LGBT people and their families.
I base my decisions more on evidence than pure emotion. As this story shows, feelings can be wrong.
God loves all people, including gays. But only heterosexual sex within marriage is permitted according to God’s law. If you don’t like the sound of “God’s law”, just substitute “natural law”. And bad things tend to happen to people who violate God’s law or natural law. Again, just look at the AIDS pandemic. Whether you attribute it to God or nature (which are really one and the same), the cinsequences are the same.
suz at 12:54 queefed the following nuke puke upon thee series of tubes also known as the internets; “If you don’t like the sound of “God’s law”, just substitute “natural law”. And bad things tend to happen to people who violate God’s law or natural law. Again, just look at the AIDS pandemic. Whether you attribute it to God or nature (which are really one and the same), the consequences are the same.”
Your thesis begs the question of what about matrimonial unions like hubbys and yours that can’t conceive? Which one of you two violated Gods Law so badly he punished you with a barren womb? Anywho, it’s just like you said;”…the consequences are same”. Yup, God’s obviously punishing you just like the gays.
Don’t worry, though. God still loves you and hubby and the gays in spite of your sins but he clearly loves those of us that can still conceive much more. ‘Cause it’s like God’s Law, as you just clearly explained to us.
I guess I have just lived too long. I don’t recognize this world anymore.
There is an organized group in town who’s main focus is limited government and curbing runaway federal spending and entitlements(the tea party)…..and the collective wisdom here is that they are crazy.
There is another group(PFLAG) which is oriented around a 15 year old that somehow is sure that they are a homosexual and a 17 year old “transgender” woman….and the collective wisdom is that these people represent the epitomy of virtue.
The truth is that those kids are in for very sad lives and we in society are guilty of enabling that sadness by engaging in absurd political correctness. Those kids deserve compassion, but not encouragement and celebration.
Maybe you have lived too long terps. Or maybe the world has just passed you by.
I won’t bother asking you at what age you figured out you were heterosexual, because I don’t care and it’s not relevant. What you and people like you need to understand is that your judgments are meaningless and probably best kept to yourselves.
Poor Pastor Cobb…straight and just doesn’t know it.
terps, this has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with love and support for them and their lifestyle. They deserve compassion because they have people like you and Suzie talking down to them because they are different than you. They deserve encouragement for living the life that does in fact make THEM happy. You and the Cackling Horde that opines its a choice and then use your religion/xenophobia into bullying them into hiding is repulsive to say the least. They deserve celebration because we are at a time in our history that people of the LGBT community can be proud and live a life as their civil and human rights deem necessary.
I celebrate the diversity of our community, you renounce it because you are afraid of change and you fear what you do not understand.
You think that being gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, or transgender is a choice. Reality tells us something very different. The great thing about reality is that its true whether you believe it or not. I see a sad person on this thread, but it isn’t anyone in Dan’s stellar column.
Congratulations to all involved in this endeavor! Your work is so very important and of this you should be proud, especially the parents! I look forward to supporting your cause!
Right on, Kristen!
Comment by terps — February 3, 2013 @ 2:25 pm
“There is an organized group in town who’s main focus is limited government and curbing runaway federal spending and entitlements(the tea party)…..and the collective wisdom here is that they are crazy.”
The tea party created its own image and received the designation “crazy” all by themselves with the candidates and comments like those below:
“If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down,” Senate Tea Party candidate Rep. Todd Akin
”I wish the American media would take a great look at the views of the people in Congress and find out: Are they pro-America or anti-America?”
—Rep. Michelle Bachmann, calling for a new McCarthyism, Oct. 2008
”I want to help clean up the state that is so sorry today of journalism. And I have a communications degree.”
—Sarah Palin, Fox News interview with Sean Hannity, Nov. 22, 2010
”George W. Bush did a incredible job in the presidency, defending us from freedom.” —Texas Gov. Rick Perry in 2010
“It is not enough to be abstinent with other people, you also have to be abstinent alone.” Delaware GOP Senate candidate Christine O’Donnell,
Pregnancies resulting from rape are “something that God intended to happen,” despite the “horrible situation” from which they derived. comment by Richard Murdock, a Tea-Party candidate,
“People ask me, ‘What are you going to do to develop jobs in your state?’ Well, that’s not my job as a U.S. senator.” —Sharron Angle, May 14, 2010
The National Institute of Mental Health reports that mental illness in the general population is approximately 6%.
Less than 8% of Americans self identify as members of the tea party…an interesting coincidence, no?
nuke puke
Nuclear vomiting?
lol
terps,
Political orientation is a choice. Thus (hypothetically) if your family rejects you for being a right-wing nutjob, it’s fair to say you played a role in bringing that upon yourself. That doesn’t excuse their hate. But if you make a choice to have Dick Cheney’s visage tattooed on your forehead, you need to learn to live with those consequences.
Sexual orientation and gender identity arent’ choices. I know how proudly heterosexual you are. You didn’t choose to be that way — one day, you realized you were attracted to the opposite sex.
Personally, I’m glad you don’t have to experience the shame and rejection that many people who are not attracted to the opposite sex have experienced. Or similar feelings from the realization that they identify with a gender different from the one they were born into.
Btw, my wife has an uncle who used to be an aunt. The change was made decades ago, after a long and tormented struggle, which was eased to an extent by the fact that his family did not (and does not) reject him. You would never meet this bearded, balding man today and ever believe for a minute that he had not been born a male.
“I base my decisions more on evidence than pure emotion. As this story shows, feelings can be wrong.”
It’s amazing how right wingers frequently think they know even better than the people they’re talking about. I remember when MMM assured us that he alone knew why a guy in Blacksburg closed his business, and it wasn’t at all the reason given by the owner himself.
I guess I have just lived too long. I don’t recognize this world anymore.
There is an organized group in town who’s main focus is limited government and curbing runaway federal spending and entitlements(the tea party)…..and the collective wisdom here is that they are crazy.
There is another group(PFLAG) which is oriented around a 15 year old that somehow is sure that they are a homosexual and a 17 year old “transgender” woman….and the collective wisdom is that these people represent the epitomy of virtue.
The truth is that those kids are in for very sad lives and we in society are guilty of enabling that sadness by engaging in absurd political correctness. Those kids deserve compassion, but not encouragement and celebration.
Extremely well said, Terps.
Unfortunately, both fit in with the ideology that has infiltrated and taken over the mores-shaping MSM. These are the folks who are actively working towards the disintegration of America.
I’d be ok having a gay child, but if one showed signs of RW nuttery I’d have them in therapy pronto.
“You didn’t choose to be that way — one day, you realized you were attracted to the opposite sex.”
Yes, apparently some time after the age of 15. I can’t imagine spending 15 years making my mind up.
Perhaps Suzie and Terps long for the simpler, less crude and more refined America of yesteryear.
You know, when homosexuality qualified as a mental illness and was treated with crude torturous procedures.
“The good ole’ days”, indeed.
Gay doesn’t mean impotent and sterile. There’s nothing on earth that precludes a homosexual from being able to impregnate a woman. Scientific method fail.
I’d be ok having a gay child, but if one showed signs of RW nuttery I’d have them in therapy pronto
What Kristen means is she would like a society in which Christians are put in asylums. You know, like the Soviets used to do.
It seems that society is much more open and supportive of alternative lifestyles now that it has been in any other point in history. TV, schools and the other forms of MSM all portray alternative lifestyles in a positive light and tend to include this demographic in plot lines, etc., at a disproportionate rate when compared with the rest of the population. Additionally, people are quick to point out that those with alternative lifestyles need support from the community at large, family, etc. particularly in the case of teens due to the alarmingly high numbers when it comes to depression and suicide rates. Not saying that is a bad thing, just an observation. It does lead me to a question though. If society is more tolerant than ever before and there are more support mechanisms in place than ever before, why are the suicide rates still going the wrong way?
This was in the NY Times magazine today.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/magazine/should-i-become-a-woman-and-risk-causing-pain-to-my-wife-and-children.html?ref=magazine
“If society is more tolerant than ever before and there are more support mechanisms in place than ever before, why are the suicide rates still going the wrong way?”
–Question from Chuck
The question assumes facts that aren’t in evidence, to wit:
1. That “suicide rates are still going the wrong way.” The assumption here is that there are more now than in the past. How do you know that’s true, Chuck?
For that to be true, you’d have to compare the rate of gay teens committing suicide say, 30 years ago, to the rate of gay teens committing suicide today. The problem with this is that it assumes teen suicides were categorized as “gay” and “nongay” 30 years ago (because otherwise you can’t make the comparison). That’s simply not the case.
“What Kristen means is she would like a society in which Christians are put in asylums.”
What suzie means is she just made up another lie.
“What Kristen means is she would like a society in which Christians are put in asylums.”
No. Just republicans.
Interesting, Chuck, and thought provoking. I don’t know if seeing Kurt Hummel in Glee (who has the best father character ever on televion) with his boyfriend Blain is of much comfort to a kid who’s facing personal battles with unaccepting family members or bulling at school. I read around and found this. Apparently 30% of all teen suicides are of gay kids.
http://www.pflagphoenix.org/education/youth_stats.html
50% of all gay and lesbian youth report that their parents reject them due to their sexual orientation. (2)
26% of gay and lesbian youth are forced to leave home because of conflicts over their sexual orientation. (1)
In a study of 194 gay and lesbian youth, 25% were verbally abused by parents, and nearly 10% dealt with threatened or actual violence. (12)
So take heart, terps….there are still plenty of good solid American value folk out there driving their gay teens to suicide. There’s hope for the country yet.
Dan, thank you for this wonderful article. Your deft strokes at the keyboard at once shine the light of hope for members in our community while exposing profound ignorance.
Actually Dan, you can capture that group by just comparing all teen suicide rates. If you will actually do a little research instead of just assuming you know the facts, you will find that the suicide rates across all demographics decreased from 1991 to 2000 but have been on the rise form 2000 until now.
If you don’t have an answer, just say so.
Debbie at 4:19 p.m., what an intersting link. The man’s letter and the response from Mr. Klosterman are great examples of an ethical dilemma where both options can be right. I’ve always been interested in this struggle between right and right. We are so conditioned, especially in today’s political climate, to see things as right or wrong, good or bad, win or lose, when the real world rarely is so clean.
Thanks for giving a spotlight on this new group and those who might be looking for them. Typically, people who want respect for their tea parties and religious dogma cannot bring themselves to offer the same to this group or their families. There will always be those who prefer to be part of the problem instead of part of the solution, or just to shut the hell up and leave people alone. You believe God is God and controls weather, pandemics and all else, he just messed up with these “alternate lifestyles”. You believe your agenda and ideology should be listened to and respected but theirs has you lamenting the passing of humanity.
I pity some of you, I truly do.
The debate of right or wrong is unnecessary and only wastes time. The only relevance is LOVING ONE ANOTHER despite our differences…
1 Corinthians 13
1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Jason Perdue, I thought it was interesting too. I had never thought of such a situation in ethical/unethical terms before. I would want my family member to be happy above all else, but I have to think it would be difficult at least for a while, to have your father or mother change genders. I agree, the world is rarely strictly black or white, right or wrong.
PFLAG isn’t really a new group, it’s been around for years, just not here.
“Actually Dan, you can capture that group by just comparing all teen suicide rates. If you will actually do a little research instead of just assuming you know the facts, you will find that the suicide rates across all demographics decreased from 1991 to 2000 but have been on the rise form 2000 until now.”
–Comment by Chuck
Chuck, here’s an honest question that you’ve implied you know the answer to:
What was the gay teen suicide rate in 2000, and what is it now? In other words, how much worse is it getting?
Debbie, I would want my family member to be happy, as well. However, we know little about his family – how long married, children’s ages, etc. I thought Mr. Klosterman’s suggestion was reasonable – talk to your spouse.
Right, Jason. I agree.
Dan
I think your right. Most homosexuals don’t choose to be homosexuals. For most it is a genetic orientation and I would fight for their right to be accepted in society. But we have moved beyond acceptance and into celebration and promotion. Low key grace has been abandoned by the left and “in your face” promotion is now the norm. I think this has led some very young and confused people down the path to a gay lifestyle when that may not have happened without the media and pop culture promotion.
“But we have moved beyond acceptance and into celebration and promotion.”
–Terps
You know, the Irish used to be put down in our society, many years ago. They were the dregs of the immigrant classes. They had to fight long and hard for societal status.
Nobody bitches and moans about St. Patrick’s Day now, but I bet you that during the first few St. Paddy’s Day parades, there were some change-averse WASP reactionaries who were horrified at the notion that the damn Micks not only had been “accepted,” but that now they were throwing that acceptance into society’s face by, egads!, staging PARADES!
And now, my God, there are Irish bars. And they even advertise their Irishness. What is the world coming to?
Come on, buddy. You are better than this and I know it.
Low key grace has been abandoned by the left and “in your face” promotion is now the norm. I think this has led some very young and confused people down the path to a gay lifestyle when that may not have happened without the media and pop culture promotion.
Bingo, again. Terps is right on the money.
And Chuck makes a great point by daring to ask WHY the LGBT suicide rate is high (as it is according to LGTB advocacy groups). The LGBT people will tell you it’s because of homophobia, and that’s the accepted MSM meme. I posit it may be the opposite. Society is now accepting the gay lifestyle more than ever before. Is it not possible this growing acceptance is leading young gays to act on their orientation and violate God’s (and nature’s) law? The Bible holds that a lifestyle of sin leads to depression and all sorts of other maladies. Might the suicides be the result of immoral actions, rather than some perceived “homophobia”?
You believe God is God and controls weather, pandemics and all else, he just messed up with these “alternate lifestyles”. You believe your agenda and ideology should be listened to and respected
Sandi,
We are simply stating the Christian and biblical perspective on homosexual behavior. You claim to attend Christian services, yes?
The debate of right or wrong is unnecessary and only wastes time. The only relevance is LOVING ONE ANOTHER despite our differences.
Bobbie has cited today’s readings at Mass. Very good. But the readings do not say love excludes condemnation of sin. We are called on to love everyone, including gays. But that doesn’t mean we are to support immoral actions.
Comment by Suzie — February 3, 2013 @ 6:30 pm
“Sandi, We are simply stating the Christian and biblical perspective on homosexual behavior. You claim to attend Christian services, yes?”
The bible does say in Leviticus, in Timothy, and in Romans, that being gay is wrong. Your justifying the condemnation of gays by relying on the literal interpretation of the bible for guidance seems rather hypocritical. Were you really to follow the bible, then according to Matthew 19:21: “To be perfect, sell all you have, give the money to the poor, and follow Him.”
And yet you are still here….nice to pick and choose the passages that you can live with or reflects your bigotry, no?
Dan
Expressing pride and promoting pride in ethnic heritage is completely different than promoting a sexual preference. And neither one celebrates achievement which ought to be what these young kids ought to be celebrating. Would it not be a better world if the left and right just shut up about what happens under the sheets and spent more time trying to find a cure for cancer? If we do that, I’ll go hug the first guy I see(except you).
Dan, are you saying gay teens are mentally ill because we consider suicidal people to be mentally ill?
How about those Biblical verses about adultery? Ooops….
Crickets from Chuck as to my question, which, including the original response, was not at all arrogant.
suzie used to say she had nothing against homosexuals. Changed her mind — or what passes for her mind — I see.
Suicidal people are not considered “mentally ill”.
Were you really to follow the bible, then according to Matthew 19:21: “To be perfect, sell all you have, give the money to the poor, and follow Him.”
And yet you are still here….nice to pick and choose the passages that you can live with or reflects your bigotry, no?
Comment by Hillary — February 3, 2013 @ 8:16 pm
Five dollars says she either ignores this NT smackdown completely or breaks out her handy-dandy “common sense” escape clause.
Sorry, Hillary, Gdad, and JM White. I’ve never said I had anything against gays. Just illicit sex acts.
Thanks, guys.
Under no reading except the most narrow, judgmental, Old Jewish Law and no longer relevant after the Grace of Christ and the teaching of his life are you “stating the Christian and biblical perspective on homosexual behavior”. Again, you defame God and project your own judgment, nothing more.
What other support groups do you think are wrong?
terps, why would you need a cure for cancer as an excuse for hugging a guy, why wouldn’t you hug a guy right now? Some kind of repression going on there?
terps, do you do something that you just don’t like? I am a “straight” man and I couldn’t imagine engaging in sex with another man. I am not attracted to men in the least. So, why do you think that teens would? Why would they try it and then live their life as if they were gay? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
I don’t like collard greens, I am not going to act like I like them for no one. I hated my Granny’s potato salad growing up(she out pickles and too much mustard) and I would take an ass beating from my mom because I wouldn’t eat it. So… thinking about sex and how wonderful it is to express that, I wouldn’t do that with someone I was not attracted to… So why are we assuming others would? Thinking about this, would you?
Under no reading except the most narrow, judgmental, Old Jewish Law and no longer relevant after the Grace of Christ and the teaching of his life are you “stating the Christian and biblical perspective on homosexual behavior”. Again, you defame God and project your own judgment, nothing more.
So does the Christian church you attend support homosexual sexual behavior?
Suzie, and others who feel as if Christianity’s teachings are completely against being gay, I would like to encourage you to speak with, Pastor Cobb, about it. I think he does a great job reconciling the bible and being gay. I know this may seem a little crazy coming from an Atheist, but I attended a Human Rights meeting at Virginia Western and I was very glad I went and met him and others who needed to hear his message. There were many students there who were, Atheist, Straight Christians for and against the gay lifestyle, and Gay Christians. It was a great group discussion!
I would like to explain what it was he said for those who won’t contact him, but I am afraid I would butcher his message. Perhaps, Dan, could ask him to write a guest post???
Suicide rates highest among atheists, lowest among religious.
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=177228
This basically supports what I have been saying all along. No group is more depressed, humorless, or angry than the far left.
Maybe it’s time for a change, people. I guarantee it will work.
Suzie: Define illicit sex acts! Could it be priests molesting alter boys?
PFLAG is a great organization. I hope that it thrives in this area.
Christians need to realize that not everybody believes in god. Who defines what is right or wrong? When I was young I was told that homosexuals go to hell. Who was qualified to tell me that? Answer: a youth pastor who was later found to be a sex offender (not gay).
Look at the facts: homosexuality is found in nature. Homosexual behavior in animals has been observed by scientists.
So these kids that are facing these challenges as to whether they should fake heterosexuality or risk the ridicule, scorn and violence (yes this happens more often than reported), need the support of adults. Especially their parents. Everyone says that suicide rates are more common today but nothing has changed. America wants to move forward but is stifled by an archaic doctrine that no one ever truly follows.
Christian: Homosexuality is wrong
Atheist: What about divorce and adultery?
Christian: We can ask for forgiveness and wipe the slate clean.
Atheist: But I am gay.
Christian: You are going to hell.
I am able to laugh at this logic because I am a free thinker with much self confidence. A teenager that is just realizing that he or she is gay is unsure and harsh words will make them question if they are worthy to live. That is why they need support from family and friends.
Nothing against those christians who are tolerant of different lifestyles. They are a tiny minority.
60.Suzie: Define illicit sex acts!
Answer…”Anything with the lights on”
The Christian church I attend has never discussed sexual behavior. What kind of crazy church does?
Comment by Suzie — February 4, 2013 @ 7:27 am
Suzie, the reason why your study showed that Atheists, or religiously unaffiliated people commit suicide on a higher rate than, religiously affiliated is because the study was conducted on a worldwide scale. The top 5 countries with the highest suicide rates were in fact secular countries that did not have laws against self assisted suicide. Which I agree with. I believe if you do not want to live any longer, you should be able to leave life, its a selfish decision most of the time, but none the less it is your life, and your body.
Sandi, need I remind you of this rodeo clown? LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=w2839yEazcs
Right on, James H! I hope more folks like us stand up and stand out for the minority that feels left out, and outcast by their families. Being gay is no more wrong than having blue eyes is wrong!
Our society is taking the right steps in correcting this issue. The more we understand that there is nothing wrong with being gay, the more folks will come out and start living their life freely, and just as happy as the rest of us… or just as miserable! LOL! I can’t wait to watch Divorce Court after Gay Marriage is legalized! Its bound to be a riot!
Does anyone know where Chuck is?
He assumed a fact not in evidence (that the gay teen suicide rate is growing) for the sake of posing a thinly veiled rhetorical question, and I respectfully asked him for substantiation of his assumption.
He responded with the “fact” that the overall teen suicide rate is growing, which really wasn’t a response.
Come on, Chuck!
“I can’t wait to watch Divorce Court after Gay Marriage is legalized! Its bound to be a riot!”
Maybe better dressed.
figures…sandi “can’t wait” until she gets to “watch Divorce Court after Gay Marraige is legalized! It’s bound to be a riot!”
So says aaaa… lib.
Sheesh. Sorry, Sandi. I mean, you are a lib, …but the quote I attributed to you was made by Justin True. I apologize for getting the two of you confused.
Hey Justin,
…it figures that you would have made that comment (looking forward to watching gaus on Divorce Court…), rather than Sandi.
Suzie, and others who feel as if Christianity’s teachings are completely against being gay
All I said is the Christianity opposes gay sex acts. Please try to be accurate.
The Christian church I attend has never discussed sexual behavior. What kind of crazy church does?
To what denomination does your church belong?
Suzie: Define illicit sex acts! Could it be priests molesting alter boys?
Yes. I already said all gay sexual activities are wrong.
Like I said Justin, “crazy”. There is no other word for anyone who is so wrapped up in what consenting adults do in their bedroom. It is not some everlasting tenet in the Bible and if the Grace of Jesus saved us from the old Jewish laws, that INCLUDES the one they continue to use to discriminate and judge. Typical, but still sad. Defaming God is not the business of Christians but some seem to have missed that memo.
Suzie, why are you so concerned on what others do in their bedroom? That’s kind of gross when you think about it. Do you care what straight people do? Since your faith thinks its OK to procreate with their daughters, can a father marry his daughters? Or is sex with your daughter only OK if said daughter “date rapes” their father in a cave?
Suzie, what is up with you obsession about where I “belong”? That is also not for you to judge or discriminate against.
Can you be so ignorant as to assume only what you consider “gay” sexual activity is wrong? Adultery, Rape, Incest, and MOST pedophilia is NOT “gay sexual activity” Suzie. Your deliberate lack of concern for anything not “gay” in nature tells us a lot of why you continue to be so morally bankrupt.
Sure most pedophilia in the Catholic Church was possibly what you call “gay sexual activity”, although not all by any means. You are simply wrong to blame homosexuality for the Catholic pedophilia. You are on a roll with wrong.
Sandi, perhaps she is trying to convert you to Catholicism? She is doing a bang up job, right? LOL
All Suzie and people like her have EVER done is turn people away from God and Jesus’ teachings. Their twisted views are what has driven the church to sanction so much evil that God has to weep over such assistance. Being held accountable for what they spew only begins to cover the damage they have done to Christianity and God.
Suzie, what is up with you obsession about where I “belong”? That is also not for you to judge or discriminate against.
Well, I’m asking because most denominations believe homosexual sex acts are sinful, yet you’re accusing me of being un-Christian for saying it, as if it all originated with me.
Can you be so ignorant as to assume only what you consider “gay” sexual activity is wrong? Adultery, Rape, Incest, and MOST pedophilia is NOT “gay sexual activity” Suzie. Your deliberate lack of concern for anything not “gay” in nature tells us a lot of why you continue to be so morally bankrupt.
Sure most pedophilia in the Catholic Church was possibly what you call “gay sexual activity”, although not all by any means. You are simply wrong to blame homosexuality for the Catholic pedophilia. You are on a roll with wrong.
I have repeatedly said all sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong. The reason for the focus on LGBT is it’s the topic of this thread. And for the 100th time, yes, individuals in the Catholic Church have done wrong by molesting.
Suzie, why are you so concerned on what others do in their bedroom? That’s kind of gross when you think about it. Do you care what straight people do?
Let me turn it around and ask you if you are concerned with the AIDS pandemic in Africa. Or if you are concerned with the high rate of broken relationships of cohabitating couples. Are you concerned with the social effects on children from broken homes?
Those things are why I am concerned with what others do in their bedrooms. It affects ALL of us.
Like I said Justin, “crazy”. There is no other word for anyone who is so wrapped up in what consenting adults do in their bedroom. It is not some everlasting tenet in the Bible and if the Grace of Jesus saved us from the old Jewish laws, that INCLUDES the one they continue to use to discriminate and judge.
Sandi is apparently saying the OT teaching of sex outside of marriage was declared permissible in the NT. I haven’t seen the passage where that is said
No apologies needed, Frank. We all know that you lack the mental capacity to keep peoples names straight. You should probably stick to putting your Cheerios in alphabetical order.
All I was trying to say, facetiously, was that gay folks have the same issues as others do, and will give more insight to their lifestyle. But they just won’t be fighting over who gets to keep the, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, eight-track tapes like, Frank, and his 4 ex-wives and 1 illegal marriage to his 1st cousin<—("damn libs and their laws"-Frank).
I have repeatedly said all sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong. -Suzie
So are yo saying that once gay folks are able to wed legally, you will be OK with the LGBT community? Or dare I say it… gay sex? *gasp* Yes I do kiss my mother with this mouth.
Sandi is apparently saying the OT teaching of sex outside of marriage was declared permissible in the NT. I haven’t seen the passage where that is said
Comment by Suzie — February 4, 2013 @ 1:21 pm
So you are saying that sex outside of marriage is a sin in the OT? I can think of around 10 places in the OT where folks are getting them some dirty sex outside of marriage. Even your homeboy Abraham was raping his slave outside of marriage. If I was walking around with 12 other dudes claiming to be the Son of Man, that would have been the first thing I took care of. People are not property, and rape is bad… mmmkay?
Yes because Suzie and whatever backwoods circus church she goes to says “homosexual acts are sinful” We should all change our lifestyles…..yeah whatever. Ever wonder why the most homophobic people end up saying this crap with their church to back them up? It is self-loathing for one reason or another. It’s really sad that people can’t think for themselves and learn anything new. Suzie, your type judges immediately without the possibility that the person you are judging might have been your best friend, your nurse or doctor, your waiter/waitress and etc. I have dealt with Suzies all my life and what I have found is that they are just sad drones that never change. I’ve read enough of your comments on this blog.
Don’t feed the trolls, people.
Chuck?
Chuck?
You got those stats yet, buddy?
Suzie, your type judges immediately without the possibility that the person you are judging might have been your best friend, your nurse or doctor, your waiter/waitress and etc.
James H,
You are doing to me exactly what you accuse me of doing. All I have said is II have respect all people, but I believe homosexual sexual acts are wrong, as per my religion and the bible.
So you are saying that sex outside of marriage is a sin in the OT? I can think of around 10 places in the OT where folks are getting them some dirty sex outside of marriage. Even your homeboy Abraham was raping his slave outside of marriage. If I was walking around with 12 other dudes claiming to be the Son of Man, that would have been the first thing I took care of. People are not property, and rape is bad… mmmkay?
Yes, and I also said New Testament dealt with homosexuality as well. Atheists don’t like to talk about the NT.
I have repeatedly said all sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong. -Suzie
So are yo saying that once gay folks are able to wed legally, you will be OK with the LGBT community? Or dare I say it… gay sex? *gasp* Yes I do kiss my mother with this mouth.
Gays are incapable of mutual coitis, so that nullfies your gotcha. Sorry about that.
Don’t feed the trolls, people.
I would assume Art Hll is talking about whomever brought up this contentious subject in the OP.
OK, so we know suzie lied in the past when she said she had nothing against gay folk.
Suzie: I only judge you by what you post on here. For all I know you could be the archdio…whatever it is. Who knows you could actually be a nice person. But the way you interact with people on this blog and your history here leads me to make a biased judgement. That being said you would judge me not how I treat others or how I treat you. You would judge me solely on the fact that I am gay. But I am used to that. It’s the same old story. It’s ok to admit it. go one we’re listening.
Wow, I guess what some of the more negative comments resoundingly demonstrate are that PFLAG is indeed needed in the Roanoke Valley. The level of misinformation, supposition without experience or knowledge, vitriol and lack of compassion is mind boggling. Yes, these children need compassion. Some of you have no idea the journey that my daughter and family have been, and are going, through. Please tell me why my daughter shouldn’t be celebrated. She is one of the bravest people I know. She is true to herself. There is no way on God’s Earth that a person would willingly choose to be subject to hate, ridicule, active, open discrimination, and the pain that my daughter has already experienced at seventeen.
She has more courage than the people who are threatened on a very primitive level by her very existence. Realizing who she is as a human being, owning that, and moving forward is more than many can ever hope to do.
My job as her mother is simple. Love her. Accept her. And yes, celebrate her.
Before I spout off in a public forum, I generally educate myself. Whether you people, who are judging others who you know almost nothing about, and clearly haven’t bothered to find out about, realize it, you have a high statistical probability of caring about or loving someone who is LGBT. You probably just don’t know it. I hope if/when that person identifies themselves to you, YOU have the courage for self-examination and to love them regardless of whether they match your definition of sexual or gender typicality.
Shelley, very well said.
Terps, I challenge you to read what she wrote and NOT get a lump in your throat, and to NOT agree with her.
You and your daughter deserve to be recognized and celebrated, Ms. Ionescu! There are many of us here on this blot that understand the daily struggles your daughter goes through. I hope to meet you both one day and show how much you are appreciated and loved by many of us in our community.
Comment by Shelley Ionescu — February 4, 2013 @ 8:50 pm
“My job as her mother is simple. Love her. Accept her. And yes, celebrate her.”
Shouldn’t that be all of our jobs?
“I would assume Art Hill is talking about whomever brought up this contentious subject…”
“Suzie,” click here.
Beautifully said, Ms. Ionescu. I wish for your daughter an ever changing world. Change has begun. I see more and more young folks unconcerned about sexual orientation, and I take that as a good sign. No doubt there are many who still ridicule what they don’t understand. The refusal to consider the biology of gender identity is quite sad. In the final analysis, it all comes down to basic human decency. Treat others as we would like to be treated. Nothing more.
So many comments here many negative and so many supportive. I urge those of you who are supportive of our LGBT community to join PFLAG at the next meeting on 2/21/13 at 7 PM at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Roanoke. We need all of you and those with negative comments may want to do some research and educate yourselves!
You would judge me solely on the fact that I am gay.
I don’t judge people, James H. That would imply I know if they are going to heaven or not. I merely judge actions. Chances are, if I met you on the street, I would not even know you’re gay. If I did happen to know, then I would have no idea what your sexual life is like. Nor would I think about it.
But in here, the way you speak, you reveal your attitudes towards a sinful action, and it’s these actions, only, that I am commenting on.
Good article Mr. Casey and timely, as friend’s transgender nephew attenpted suicide this weekend – luckily he failed. I took my friend your article so she would know there is community support. The nephew is loved and supported by the family.
I have often wondered what people found so frightening about LGBTs. Is “different from me” that scarey? Slavery has been abolished and schools intergrate in spite of biblical pasages, separation of church and state (respecting other religions or lack of), physcally and mentatally challenged childn have been mainstreamed in public schools over parental protests and the list goes on. What is so scarey about different? Just because some in society can’t identify with people who are “different”, that does not make that different person wrong in need of fixing, bullying or persecution.
More than 30 years ago,when I worked in a hospital operating room we would have hermaphodites as patients. A hermaphodite is a person born with the genitalia of both sexes – having a penis and vagina. The parents would select the sex they wished to raise the child and surgery would cosmetically reflect the gender the parent chose. I always hoped they got the gender right. No matter how we appear, how we feel and think of ourself is specific to each person. Who – we are attracted to is specific to each person. I have yet to see where someones sexual/gender orientation effects me or society. I am effected, however; by fear mongering, hate speech and attempted suppression or segregation of any segment of socety. These actions against fellow humans should make us cringe in shame.
The level of misinformation, supposition without experience or knowledge, vitriol and lack of compassion is mind boggling.
Shelley,
The only vitriol you’ve seen on this thread are from those who agree with you. No one here has bashed LGBT people. No one has said they didn’t love them.
Ok yes it’s mentions same sex relations in Leviticus , a book of PRIESTLY laws 600 priestly laws. Why are the other 599 ignored and broken by all ? Then Corinthians , which is Paul talking to idol worshipers and condemning all they are doing, including heterosexual relations in this setting . The fact is Jesus never , not once , mentioned anything remotely close to condemning homosexuals , transgendered, bi- sexuals or any other group of people you use the bible to condemn . As a matter of fact he preach acceptance . Something many in these comments seem to have forgotten . No one in their right mind would ever CHOOSE to be gay or transgendered or anything else that brings hate and fear from others . We have the right to be protected under the law and live happy and with who we love. We have the same right to be who we are without someone telling us we are going to hell. What’s wrong with you so called Christians ? Have you completely thrown away what Christ died for? He show us ALL HOW TO LIVE. Judging and condemning was not his message .
Keep talking about sex Suzie. It’s the best way for the casual informed reader on the blog to come to the conclusion that religious admonitions about what people do in private are whack. Having sex rule obsessed judge of private actions is the best advertisement of tolerance yet. Keep up the good work, in fact, try a little harder and be more descriptive in what god finds objectionable.
Keep talking about sex Suzie. It’s the best way for the casual informed reader on the blog to come to the conclusion that religious admonitions about what people do in private are whack. Having sex rule obsessed judge of private actions is the best advertisement of tolerance yet. Keep up the good work, in fact, try a little harder and be more descriptive in what god finds objectionable.
Mike Scott,
What percentage of children at your school come from parents who had sex within a marriage environment? Less than half? Do you think that has been a positive or negative in terms of student development, performance, and overall well-being.
And Scott. of the 22.9 million AIDS cases in Africa, how many of them do you think resulted from monogamous sex within the confines of marriage? 1/100th of one percent perhaps?
So by saying it’s perfectly fine for people to engage in whatever sex acts they please, you’re giving your blessing to tens of millions of AIDS cases and thousands of troubled children here in America.
So maybe religion has it right on this.
Thanks for putting the matter into the proper perspective Shelley Ionescu. I wish your daughter a happy life and applaud your support!
Suzie, you are hiding in the safety of internet anonymity, your “religion” and what you “believe” to judge people, their behavior, and their relationship with God with every offensive post you make and NO ONE, especially God has commissioned you to do so. That is on YOU, and YOU alone.
You do not begin to touch the surface of honesty, integrity and decency when all you grudgingly admit is that “individuals in the Catholic Church have done wrong by molesting”. The issue goes so far beyond just the molesting and rape of children, the robbing of their innocence and corruption of their faith and we all know it.
YOUR church not only knew of the abuse, they covered it up, allowed it to continue, moved and protected the pedophiles instead of the children. You, of all people have no room to hold your religion or your church up as any moral example for anyone. I repeat, you defame God.
suzie says: “But in here, the way you speak, you reveal your attitudes towards a sinful action, and it’s these actions, only, that I am commenting on.”
I will consider myself judged by out of touch suzie
Shelly Lonescu: Very uplifting comment. If my Dad would have been that supportive I would have had a better adolescence, but he wasn’t nor was his second wife. It is such a struggle at that age. I first went through a denial period. I tried to date girls but it just didn’t work out. I can remember being attracted to a man at the age of 4, but at that age I knew nothing about sex or anything like that but the feeling was definitely there. I want to stop here and note that this particular man never did anything inappropriate to me; he was a friend of the family. So going through the denial as a teen did not work out, but neither would acting on my feelings. So I was stuck with all of these pressures to be what people thought I should be. Because a lot of boys my age weren’t taught to treat others with respect, now comes the bullying. They didn’t know I had feelings for men; they just knew I was different and that’s enough fuel for the fire so to speak. One harsh truth that I learnt from this period of my life was at the time teachers, principals, guidance councilors, parents and other family members gave no support and sort of turned a blind eye. Fortunately for me, I am strong minded and independent so I was able to work through these problems. High School was pure hell and though I made it through I still refuse to attend a class reunion. I didn’t take any actions on my feelings for men until I was 21 years old. At that time, my mother (whom I did not grow up with)was supportive and it meant so much to me that she would be this supportive despite the fact that she didn’t raise me (by no fault of her own).
PFLAG is a great organization and I’m really happy that many of these parents are beginning to support their children. It will make a huge difference.
Should lesbians between the ages of 18-25 be required to register for the secret service, as gay males are?
oops. I meant Selective Service.
Suzie, you are hiding in the safety of internet anonymity, your “religion” and what you “believe” to judge people, their behavior, and their relationship with God with every offensive post you make and NO ONE, especially God has commissioned you to do so. That is on YOU, and YOU alone.
You do not begin to touch the surface of honesty, integrity and decency when all you grudgingly admit is that “individuals in the Catholic Church have done wrong by molesting”. The issue goes so far beyond just the molesting and rape of children, the robbing of their innocence and corruption of their faith and we all know it.
YOUR church not only knew of the abuse, they covered it up, allowed it to continue, moved and protected the pedophiles instead of the children. You, of all people have no room to hold your religion or your church up as any moral example for anyone. I repeat, you defame God.
1. You claim to go to a Christian church, and though you won’t admit it, your church is even more stridently vociferous against homosexual actions than mine. So why do you belong to denomination that in your words is “judgmental”?
2. My posts in this blog have all been civil, polite and nonjudgmental towards people. I have simply echoed what the bible and Christian churches say about an immoral action.
3. I have admitted dozens of times, the actions of some priests in the Catholic Church have been wrong, and the actions of some bishops, if they knew they were enabling abusive priests, were wrong as well. I don’t know what you want me to do. Stand on my head?
But I also realize you are using these incidents as a way to try to discredit the teachings of my faith. And I will again reject the notion that bad actions of imperfect mortal men should or could diminish the validity or purity of the tenets of the Catholic faith.
4. I realize, too, the tools of the trade of the far left is to demonize and condemn as “evil” anyone who disagrees with them on any issue. And that is exactly what we’re seeing here.
The fact is Jesus never , not once , mentioned anything remotely close to condemning homosexuals , transgendered, bi- sexuals or any other group of people you use the bible to condemn . As a matter of fact he preach acceptance
Jesus may not have mentioned homosexual actions by name, just as he didn’t a variety of sins, but clear reference is made in the New Testament:
Romans 1: 26-27
For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.
Corinthians and Timothy also have references against homosexual behavior.
“I have admitted dozens of times, the actions of some priests in the Catholic Church have been wrong, and the actions of some bishops, if they knew they were enabling abusive priests, were wrong as well. I don’t know what you want me to do. Stand on my head?”
–Suzie
Come on, Suzie, dozens of times you’ve blamed the Catholic Church’s problems on a relatively small number of gays. That has been your stock response. While the above seems to break some new ground, it doesn’t go far enough. Now you have to add cardinals to the list. We’re climbing higher on that ladder, eh?
on, Suzie, dozens of times you’ve blamed the Catholic Church’s problems on a relatively small number of gays. That has been your stock response. While the above seems to break some new ground, it doesn’t go far enough. Now you have to add cardinals to the list. We’re climbing higher on that ladder, eh?
Even if the pope were involved, tell me why it should change what I believe as a Catholic? There have been some immoral popes in past centuries. The Church endures because it is of God and not men.
Frank has a new stupid trolling question to harp on.
Your obsession with where I “belong” and to what denomination I “belong to” is truly sad. I have repeatedly stated I “belong” to no church and no denomination. I attend a church that posits: “The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve…”. That is WHY I do not belong to the Church. I am not a member of the church or the denomination. Can you please store that somewhere in that hate file you use to post your offensive use of God?
Your long and “storied” career on this blog has not “all been civil, polite and nonjudgmental towards people”. You are reaping what you have sown, surely you know that Scripture as well? If you indeed “simply echoed what the bible and Christian churches say”, you could choose not to use the Bible as a weapon. You don’t and that remains telling.
I want you to live with what you have created here and stop trying to use sophistry and religion to further your prejudice and condemnation.
The practices and words YOU use are what will “discredit the teachings” of your faith. And you are truly delusional if you believe that the only problem with the Catholic Church is the “bad actions of imperfect mortal men”. I will further note that is precisely the tool you use to “diminish the validity” of everything and everyone you disagree with. Ironic, huh?
I think you also “realize” that “the tools of the trade”, specifically “to demonize and condemn as “evil” anyone who disagrees with them” is used by yourself and your church.
You cannot refute what I say, so you attempt to discredit and insult me, while claiming that is what I am doing to you.
Please note that in the Scripture you use to condemn homosexual activity, it clearly says “unnatural”. You do not know, nor can you know, that meant homosexual people, for whom such attractions and activities are quite natural. Or do you think God wasn’t smart enough to know that? Kinda like if the God you believe is as spiteful, hate-filled and judgmental as you project decided to make you behave unnaturally and speak well of liberals or President Obama. Would you understand then?
Stop defaming God and I will leave you alone.
“I have admitted dozens of times, the actions of some priests in the Catholic Church have been wrong, and the actions of some bishops, if they knew they were enabling abusive priests, were wrong as well. I don’t know what you want me to do. Stand on my head?”
It’s truly been interesting watching this evolution of your opinion on the matter of your church and it’s shortcomings at they relate to properly dealing with illegal actions. Anyone who can remember many discussion on this blog will recall your initial reaction: Blame the victims. You characterized them as greedy people whose only real issue was their desire to extract money from the church. Then there was the argument from antiquity; the objectionable behavior happened so long ago that it really didn’t matter. From then came the position that it was the problem of homosexuals who had infiltrated the church in which you used the term homosexual and pedophile interchangeably. Let’s see, there was also the “but the church is all about forgiveness” in which you seemed to think the abusers sincerely sought forgiveness for the acts and were rightfully given “do overs” in other parishes, which led to more “do overs” in other parishes.
It was good to see the Pope finally come around to “the evil is in our church” instead of preaching the litany of blame.
How come it takes religious leaders in your church so long to see what others find inherently abusive and wrong.
The decades of cover-up, payoffs and denials on the part of the Catholic Church has to represent the biggest CYA operation in history.
None of this is about us trying to get you to “change” what you “believe as a Catholic”, that is all on you and you are welcome to it. This is about refuting what we see as lies (or in my case, blasphemy and lies). Trying to claim “The Church endures because it is of God and not men” while clearly and deliberately projecting the worst in man onto God for your own reasons, is truly disturbing. That you completely refuse to see that, is as well.
If you can distinguish between real and imaginary keep your trap shut. Well in this case fingers from typing. Being gay shouldn’t even be an issue. Oh your gay ok. Oh your black ok. What do you want to do for lunch? Equality is the issue. I think some of your reading material needs to be updated. We are in the 21st century. Read a science book for your Christs sake. The earth isn’t flat, I can walk on water it’s called snow, and the only zombie-ish people we should concern ourselves with are people on bath salts. Another thing isn’t not like when you go to kroger all he gays are in hoards trying force you to scissor or take it from behind. Until they do (that will never happen) let everyone marry who they love, I can only assume that you all are against gays and lesbians raising children as well. I do suppose a loving monogamous relationship between two homosexuals as parents is much worse then the straight couple that beats their children. -_- Everyone is equal and should be treated as such. No one is better then anyone else. Hate, fear and misunderstanding is the problem.
the gays*
Once again, those who choose to use biblical references to unnatural acts as a means to judge homosexuality miss the mark badly. In fact, science teaches us that homosexuality has a very strong biological component, making it quite natural indeed. To deny LGBT folks the comfort of a loving relationship is patently unfair and violates the tenets of human decency.
There is a changing tide in this country (and the world), and it is unstoppable. The biological and “natural” arguments against homosexuality have all fallen and those left still opposed have become absolutely desperate to maintain their positions. They grasp at the straws of morality and the fogs of ancient religious texts in an effort to constrain and subjugate others to their will.
They can’t see the inherent selfishness in their bigotry that destroys any chance of their actions being good and just. They bleed from self-inflicted wounds and arrogantly blame it on the “disgrace” of homosexuals. Beyond rending their garments and gnashing their teeth, they have virtually committed seppuku in lament of something that rarely touches their lives and in no way influences their own free will. Their God gives free will to all of His creations, yet they believe they are worthy and right to force their own selfish will upon another. This irony escapes them, for they are blinded by their own delusional piety. They have placed themselves above their God and have done so at the risk of extinction.
There is nothing they can do. There are only two paths here: there is the path of the inevitable – the path of acceptance and tolerance – and there is the path of obsolescence – the path that leads to isolation and inevitably, hate. No amount of judgement, condemnation or consternation will change the fact that what people do in their own bedrooms is a private matter and as such, should be left in the hands of God. None of us are fit to judge and certainly no one has laden us with such a burden.
Be proud and be strong, LGBT community! You are winning the war. Do not mistake the asperity of the dwindling opposition as strength; it’s nothing more than the gasps of the desperate and drowning. We support you, we believe in your fight and we fight it with you. You will never fight alone. Not anymore. It’s time for the plague of intolerance to be cleansed and unity is the cure.
It’s truly been interesting watching this evolution of your opinion on the matter of your church and it’s shortcomings at they relate to properly dealing with illegal actions. Anyone who can remember many discussion on this blog will recall your initial reaction: Blame the victims. You characterized them as greedy people whose only real issue was their desire to extract money from the church. Then there was the argument from antiquity; the objectionable behavior happened so long ago that it really didn’t matter. From then came the position that it was the problem of homosexuals who had infiltrated the church in which you used the term homosexual and pedophile interchangeably. Let’s see, there was also the “but the church is all about forgiveness” in which you seemed to think the abusers sincerely sought forgiveness for the acts and were rightfully given “do overs” in other parishes, which led to more “do overs” in other parishes.
There has been no change in my position. All these things are true. But I never said all homosexuals are pedophiles. I did say, correctly, that all male molesters of boys are homosexual.
Your obsession with where I “belong” and to what denomination I “belong to” is truly sad. I have repeatedly stated I “belong” to no church and no denomination. I attend a church that posits: “The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve…”. That is WHY I do not belong to the Church. I am not a member of the church or the denomination. Can you please store that somewhere in that hate file you use to post your offensive use of God?
So you’re saying you attend a church but don’t belong to it because you disagree with its positions? That makes no sense whatsoever.
There is a changing tide in this country (and the world), and it is unstoppable
I haven’t seen it. Not even the bluest state has passed gay marriage in a referendum And you’re mistaken if you think the caprices of man can change the law of God. You’re also mistaken if you think man can violate those laws without horrible consequences, which we see in the AIDS pandemic
There has been no change in my position. All these things are true. But I never said all homosexuals are pedophiles. I did say, correctly, that all male molesters of boys are homosexual.
Comment by Suzie — February 5, 2013 @ 3:08 pm
Suzie, your assertion that “all male molesters of boys are homosexual” is just flat wrong. Research shows that most men who molest prepubescent children do so because they have not or are unable to establish an adult sexual orientation. The science on this is fairly settled.
Research shows that most men who molest prepubescent children do so because they have not or are unable to establish an adult sexual orientation. The science on this is fairly settled.
That’s utterly ridiculous. Male molesters of boys are gay by definition. Look at NAMBLA’s website, and read how they see themselves. That ought to clear things up for you.
I swear. Leftwingers would ask us to believe up is down.
“Look at NAMBLA’s website…”
No thanks, but it sounds like you speak from experience.
Look at NAMBLA’s website, and read how they see themselves. That ought to clear things up for you.
Comment by “Suzie”
This is the first time I’ve ever heard or seen anyone admit that they check out the NAMBLA website, much less that they’ve learned from it.
What a creepy poster.
That’s utterly ridiculous. Male molesters of boys are gay by definition. Look at NAMBLA’s website, and read how they see themselves. That ought to clear things up for you.
I swear. Leftwingers would ask us to believe up is down.
Comment by Suzie — February 5, 2013 @ 11:53 pm
No, Suzie, you are the one being utterly ridiculous. Do some real research through legitimate scientific channels. If you do, you will find that what I posited is accurate. As you have often chastised others, you really should know a little something about the topic before posting.
I wonder what systems are pinged when you take a peek a NAMBLAs site.
suzie, you’re pretty much the only person I know who looks at NAMBLA’s website. The rest of us consider it too disgusting to go there.
It is beyond “utterly ridiculous”, it is bigoted, ignorant and judgmental on a level you are unfit to attain Suzie.
There is no truth to your assertion, we have told you that, proved that and refuted that every time you have slung it out there in your attempts to malign homosexuals and mitigate the blame the Catholic Church bears.
It is your delusion, not ours.
Homosexuality is an attraction to the same sex, not children. An attraction to children is pedophilia and the vast majority of pedophiles are not same sex. That you refuse to see anything through any but your own prism is your problem. That you are categorically wrong and bigoted is as clear as it can ever be.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
http://www.joekort.com/articles50.htm
Homosexuality happens naturally and between consenting adults is none of anyone’s business. Just as your own consenting behavior isn’t.
Sexual contact with children is a perversion, a crime and a deviant behavior that has no consent involved. Not even when the Catholic Church looked the other way and enabled it. Not even when the ancient Biblical times looked the other way and enabled it. NEVER has it been right, natural or moral. And it never will be. Neither you, nor your oft cited NAMBLA can change that. It is “statutory” for a reason.
You need to realize your roto-rooter approach is covering you in some ugly stuff even if it is throwing it out too. You are defaming God and innocent people. The Catholic excuses continue.
Suzie, I belong to God. Not a church, not a denomination, not any group. I follow Christ, I believe in and worship God. Period. Your tribal needs and judgments are not my concern and what I believe is not yours.
“Homosexuality is an attraction to the same sex, not children.”
Boys are the same sex as men. Just thought I would clear that up for you.
anyone who has sex with a child should be shot in the genitals and left to suffer. of course the islamists dont think so huh sandi? they force little girls ALL THE TIME and you approve of that huh?
I mean come on, you’re always defending them so what about this subject sandi, can you support that too?
“There is no truth to your assertion, we have told you that, proved that and refuted that every time…”
suzie does not care about facts. We know that.
Look at NAMBLA’s website, and read how they see themselves. -Suzie
Yeah, Sandi… go onto a disgusting site and read a disgusting opinion on how child molesters view themselves.
Next you can go read why the KKK thinks they are a stand-up group of people as well. The only reason why they are white supremacists is because they can’t get any other race to live in the trailer next to them. It is scientifically proven in an article written by Ted Nugent and printed in the latest issue of the NRA magazine.
No, Suzie, you are the one being utterly ridiculous. Do some real research through legitimate scientific channels. If you do, you will find that what I posited is accurate. As you have often chastised others, you really should know a little something about the topic before posting.
Try using some logic here, Jason. If these men didn’t have a homosexual bent, wouldn’t they go after girls and boys equally? But they don’t. It’s boys. Have you ever heard of NAMGLA?
” Male molesters of boys are gay by definition.”
Actually not true. Homosexuals are solely attracted to the same sex. Many of the molesters are married and have children which would imply they were bisexual, not homosexual. If they are attracted to prepubescent boys/girls, they are also pedophiles.
Suzie, I belong to God. Not a church, not a denomination, not any group. I follow Christ, I believe in and worship God. Period. Your tribal needs and judgments are not my concern and what I believe is not yours.
Your calling me bigoted because I attend a church that stands against homosexual behavior. Yet you do the same thing. So again, why do you attend a church whose stance on homosexuality you disagree with? You haven’t answered that yet.
Your quote:
I attend a church that posits: “The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve…”. That is WHY I do not belong to the Church
Your=you’re
This is the first time I’ve ever heard or seen anyone admit that they check out the NAMBLA website, much less that they’ve learned from it.
What a creepy poster.
Just putting the lie to leftwing claim that man-boy pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality, Warren. A look at the site will dispel that myth in a hurry.
pammala, I know it is hard, but do try to pay attention, I said sexual contact with children is a perversion, a crime and a deviant behavior that has no consent involved. I did not carve out an exemption for anyone. Perverting Islam to mean you can have sex with children is as wrong as perverting Christianity to mean that only homosexuals have sex with children.
It is wrong, perverted and deviant no matter who does it. Is that explicit enough for you yet? You folks sure like to wallow in the dirt.
Yes Henry, “Boys are the same sex as men”, but they are also children which means you are a pedophile if you touch them sexually. Which is why I said, homosexuality is an attraction to the same sex, not children. Was it the “children” part that threw you off? Children cannot give consent for sexual activity. Touching children makes you a pedophile, regardless of any other consensual sexual activity you may or may not have ever had. Period.
Suzie, I am calling you bigoted not because you “attend a church that stands against homosexual behavior”. That is fairly common, as I already said. I call you bigoted because unlike me and many other Christians, you use that as an excuse to judge and condemn homosexuals. It is not “the same thing”
I have explained my church issues with people here before. You are not worthy of any such sharing.
pammala, there are many Christian sects that force young girls to marry older men as well… that is not confined to Islam.
“of course the islamists dont think so huh sandi? they force little girls ALL THE TIME and you approve of that huh?”
Go ahead and point out where Sandi or anybody else said this, pammala.
Crickets.
Oh, you’re admitting that you were just lying when you wrote it? Decent of you.
It seems strange that pammala would equate child rape with one particular religion. Does any religion truly “own” pedophilia? Come on . . .
The fact that some here on this thread are trying to link pedophilia with being gay is just insane. One has nothing to do with the other, and never will.
Pop quiz for the blog’s leftwing geniuses:
Guess which presidential candidate NAMBLA supported in 2012:
Hint: It wasn’t the Republican.
Actually not true. Homosexuals are solely attracted to the same sex. Many of the molesters are married and have children which would imply they were bisexual, not homosexual.
Point taken, Henry. Although I’ve always lumped homos and bis together.
“The fact that some here on this thread are trying to link pedophilia with being gay is just insane.”
This have been one of suzie’s schticks for years now. Because it’s s wrong, she knows she’ll always get a response.
“Pop quiz for the blog’s leftwing geniuses:
Guess which presidential candidate NAMBLA supported in 2012:
Hint: It wasn’t the Republican.”
–Suzie
So what? Who did the Aryan Nations and the KKK support? Hint: it wasn’t the Democrat.
“I wonder what systems are pinged when you take a peek a NAMBLAs site.”
Perhaps a search of the hard drive is in order.
“Although I’ve always lumped homos and bis together.”
“Guess which presidential candidate NAMBLA supported in 2012:”
Pretty much tells us all we need to know about the IQ level of this troll.
“Pop quiz for the blog’s leftwing geniuses:
Guess which presidential candidate NAMBLA supported in 2012:
Hint: It wasn’t the Republican.”
–Suzie
So what? Who did the Aryan Nations and the KKK support? Hint: it wasn’t the Democrat.
The reason I pointed this little tidbit out was some of the resident geniuses tried to imply I somehow had an affinity for NAMBLA, as if that made an ounce of sense.
Justin says: “The fact that some here on this thread are trying to link pedophilia with being gay is just insane. One has nothing to do with the other, and never will.”
So true Justin! Most of us in the gay community view pedophilia as a horrible horrible crime (that goes for rape as well). The more a person like “suxie” posts these things the more I feel infinitely sad for her/his type. The more I read the more cynical I become, but I don’t get discouraged. My mind is free and I’m a fighter and I will call these sub-humans out everytime. So those who equate a horrible crime with loving who I want to love and be with better be ready because I’m sure their closets aren’t clean as we have already seen time and time again in the news.
Can I just simply say two things.
1: This is a great thing happening and there will be those who cry against it, and there will be those who love and support it. The bottom line is, if it helps one person from suicide, one family from disintegrating, one child from feeling terribly alone, then it’s worth it, and all the nay sayers are invalidated.
2: There’s a lot of people writing about lifestyles. Being a vegetarian is a lifestyle. Being a Christian is a lifestyle. Being gay is not a lifestyle. As a gay man, I don’t have a gay lifestyle, I have a life. I’m not living a gay lifestyle, I’m living life. Live, and let live.
Suzie,
You said: “2. My posts in this blog have all been civil, polite and nonjudgmental towards people. I have simply echoed what the bible and Christian churches say about an immoral action.”
Not exactly true. You’ve clearly associated homosexuality with pedophiles. For your information, most male pedophiles who consort with young boys do not consider themselves, nor live as homosexuals.
Also, it’s well-documented that the spread of AIDS in Africa is mostly because of heterosexual prostitution; not anywhere close to the Gay Scourge that you envision. Google. It works.
Simply stating that you’re polite by not using curse words, or thinking that you’re non-judgemental does not make you so. The fact that you have read testimonials by people on here that should touch anyone with one ounce of Golden Rule or agape in them, but instead choose to abide by the dogma in which you’ve been indoctrinated, indicates to me, that at the minimum, you are indeed judgemental. I’d like to invite you to our next PFLAG meeting, wherein you may express your views and meet some of the people about whom you seem to have such a professed informed opinion. In my world, actions are stronger than words.
A few years ago, my then teenaged daughter was being harassed, threatened, and bullied at her high school for being gay. A male student made many hateful remarks to her but the worst was, “Yeah, I see a hate crime coming at this school against gays.”. My daughter was terrified. As her parent, I was terrified. I went to the school principle and was brushed off because the boy was “just being a boy” according to the principle. Fortunately, no one killed. My mistake, which I truly regret, was in not going to the police. I am happy to say, my daughter is well, happy to be who she is, and a prominent person working for peaceful change. I couldn’t be prouder of her. As for the young man who threatened her, I wonder how happy he is being so full of hate and fear. Whose life is he trying to ruin by spreading his hate?