No jumping off the Sunday OPEN thread
Shot by Dan at Union Avenue along the Roanoke River greenway in Salem
“Living at risk is jumping off the cliff and building your wings on the way down.”
Ray Bradbury
March 10, 2013 - 9:00 AM
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March 10, 2013 - 9:00 AM
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Monday, May 20, 2013
THE ROANOKE TIMES
Great & successful evening in Chicago last night. A poster I saw yesterday expressed a profound thought in my view. The quote was not attributed to anyone, so I don’t know its author. Just know that I didn’t come up with it. Think about this as you go through your day.
“People were created to be loved. Things were created to be used.
The reason why the world is in CHAOS is because things are being loved and people are being used.”
Ron,
…am glad you had a successful fund-raising evening in Chicago.
The first sentence of the quote you offer above has profound personal meaning for me. The rest of the quote certainly rings loud and true.
I’ve seen that quote on Facebook, Ron. Sadly it is all too true.
Ron – I use to have a sign on my wall that said:
“The Best things in Life, are not Things”, and there were small children pictured…
Wow, when did Bailey’s Irish Cream become so expensive? Bought a 12 1/2 oz bottle and it cost $15. We’re celebrating St Patrick’s Day a little early, and between the cost of Bailey’s, the corned beef, and Irish Soda bread, for a meal that use to be relatively inexpensive, it is becoming almost prohibitive! Our family toast…
May the leprechauns be near you,
To spread luck along your way.
And may all the Irish angels,
Smile upon you St. Patrick’s Day.
hey folks, here’s one for you.
In yesterday’s (Saturday’s) Roanoke Times, page 3, there is a wire report article titled, “Woman eats poisen, is accused of killing baby.”
In Indiana, Ron May’s state, the athorities are prosecuting a woman for ingesting poison while pregnant, with the intention to kill herself and her baby. She is charged with murder and feticide. The baby was born alive, but because the baby’s death was precipitated by the ingestion of poison, the charges were brought.
I thought women had the right to choose?
Had the woman done this in Chicago, would she have been charged with murder? Feticide?
When does a late-term fetus feel misery and discomfort? Who cares, right?
“Love the small children.” Good idea.
I cannot make up my mind whether Atwood or Frank was the twin – separated at birth – to the one who will not be named…
Who would have thought so much misinformation and asinine comments could be replicated by so few on Dan’s blog…
According to a banner in the city market area, March 11th thru the 17th is Brain Awareness Week. A day early, but has anyone on here ever heard of this neurological disorder, synesthesia? I saw a cooking competition show on the Food Network the other night, and a contestant said she has synesthesia, she said she doesn’t see colors, shes tastes them. I looked it up, it’s a strange and fascinating disorder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
“Synesthesia (also spelled synæsthesia or synaesthesia, plural synesthesiæ or synæsthesiæ), from the ancient Greek σύν (syn), “together,” and αἴσθησις (aisthēsis), “sensation,” is a neurological condition in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway.”
I’ve read about it, Debbie. People see letters and numbers in certain colors, in some cases. It’s fascinating. I read this piece years ago…best part is when the subject and her father are debating what color 5 is.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/23/science/when-people-see-a-sound-and-hear-a-color.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Ron, this story in the NY Times today, fits perfectly with the quote you posted. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/opinion/sunday/living-with-less-a-lot-less.html?pagewanted=all
Re: Ron May at 9:41 am & Debbie at 1:42 pm
I heard and subsequently used “Use things and love people, not vice versa” in one form or another since I was a child.
Speaking of the NYT, the following lengthy front page article is a great read:
http://tinyurl.com/awactkm
**
How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs
WASHINGTON — One morning in late September 2011, a group of American drones took off from an airstrip the C.I.A. had built in the remote southern expanse of Saudi Arabia. The drones crossed the border into Yemen, and were soon hovering over a group of trucks clustered in a desert patch of Jawf Province, a region of the impoverished country once renowned for breeding Arabian horses.
A group of men who had just finished breakfast scrambled to get to their trucks. One was Anwar al-Awlaki, the firebrand preacher, born in New Mexico, who had evolved from a peddler of Internet hatred to a senior operative in Al Qaeda’s branch in Yemen. Another was Samir Khan, another American citizen who had moved to Yemen from North Carolina and was the creative force behind Inspire, the militant group’s English-language Internet magazine.
SNIP
Eighteen months later, despite the Obama administration’s effort to keep it cloaked in secrecy, the decision to hunt and kill Mr. Awlaki has become the subject of new public scrutiny and debate, touched off by the nomination of John O. Brennan, Mr. Obama’s counterterrorism adviser, to be head of the C.I.A.
The leak last month of an unclassified Justice Department “white paper” summarizing the administration’s abstract legal arguments — prepared months after the Awlaki and Khan killings amid an internal debate over how much to disclose — has ignited demands for even greater transparency, culminating last week in a 13-hour Senate filibuster that temporarily delayed Mr. Brennan’s confirmation. Some wondered aloud: If the president can order the assassination of Americans overseas, based on secret intelligence, what are the limits to his power?
SNIP
**
And yet another outstanding read, Lincoln Caplan’s “Sunday Observer” essay: http://tinyurl.com/axkaclu
**
The Right to Counsel: Badly Battered at 50
By LINCOLN CAPLAN
Published: March 9, 2013
A half-century ago, the Supreme Court ruled that anyone too poor to hire a lawyer must be provided one free in any criminal case involving a felony charge. The holding in Gideon v. Wainwright enlarged the Constitution’s safeguards of liberty and equality, finding the right to counsel “fundamental.” The goal was “fair trials before impartial tribunals in which every defendant stands equal before the law.”
This principle has been expanded to cover other circumstances as well: misdemeanor cases where the defendant could be jailed, a defendant’s first appeal from a conviction and proceedings against a juvenile for delinquency.
While the constitutional commitment is generally met in federal courts, it is a different story in state courts, which handle about 95 percent of America’s criminal cases. This matters because, by well-informed estimates, at least 80 percent of state criminal defendants cannot afford to pay for lawyers and have to depend on court-appointed counsel.
Even the best-run state programs lack enough money to provide competent lawyers for all indigent defendants who need them. Florida set up public defender offices when Gideon was decided, and the Miami office was a standout. But as demand has outpaced financing, caseloads for Miami defenders have grown to 500 felonies a year, though the American Bar Association guidelines say caseloads should not exceed 150 felonies.
SNIP
**
I have little, as in no, sympathy for American terrorists who get caught in drone hits on al Qaeda cam
Sorry,camps. You don’t want to get blown up with a bunch of terrorists? Don’t hang out with terrorists. The fact that he’s American is of no import.
Here looking at ya, Dan.
.
.
And maybe a few other of us, more indirectlly.
http://tinyurl.com/a4h9ch2
**
Mar 10, 3:13 PM EDT
Jeb Bush: Political reporters are ‘crack addicts’
WASHINGTON (AP) — Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush on Sunday likened political reporters to “crack addicts” and “heroin addicts” during a tour of morning talk shows that drew repeated questions about the still-distant 2016 presidential election.
SNIP
But as Bush wrapped up a conversation with NBC’s David Gregory,” he likened journalists and their questions about the 2016 campaign to drug addicts.
SNIP
**
The GOP continues to flail in the wilderness, they can’t seem to find anyone who clicks with the electorate. Jindal, Rubio, Gingrich, Christie, McDonnell, all run up the flagpole and rejected. In their desperation they’re turning to yet another Bush. Good luck with that. Now go outside and play.
Dave Hicks,
I read that NYT drone story, too. It’s a good one. Like Kristen, I have a hard time getting worked up over people killed in drone attracts on Al Qaeda camps and Al Qaeda gatherings. Their nationality doesn’t matter to me at ALL. That is some weird and very artificial distinction. And if some kids get killed because terrorists have brought them to the camp/meeting, then so be it.
On the other hand, I am concerned about innocents who are killed via the use of drones because of bad intel or incompetence of the drone operator. There’s no doubt this has happened, and I don’t think this country should be very forgiving of the people who make those mistakes.
Drones. You liberals get your panties in a wad over a couple of cases of water boarding, where we received valuable info from terrorist. NOW, Obama blows these terrorist heads off, and we get no intel, and far more increased hatred of those crazy muslims
U all, but leave the horse you rode in on alone. He didn’t do anything!
Re: Kristen at 3:00 pm
I understand the feelings.
However, I don’t ever believe that “the end justify the means.”
Did you read down to the legal issues starting at the heading “A Legal Quandary”?
Are you comfortable with all that?
Dan and Kristen, I think the real issue is limits on executive power. We have seen this power grow under administrations of both parties, and there seems to be no end to it. Warrantless wiretaps, monitoring of all electronic communication, the concentration camp that we call Guantanamo bay, the FBI’s National Security Letters, etc. The executive branch now serves as judge, jury and executioner in some cases. Many are OK with that at present because of who is being targeted. But if we were looking at another country that was following these policies, we might very well conclude that that country was a police state. I think that is where we are headed with this.
Kristen | March 10, 2013 at 3:02 pm
Sorry,camps. You don’t want to get blown up with a bunch of terrorists? Don’t hang out with terrorists. The fact that he’s American is of no import.
+2 on that
Hillary | March 10, 2013 at 12:43 pm
I cannot make up my mind whether Atwood or Frank was the twin – separated at birth – to the one who will not be named…
Who would have thought so much misinformation and asinine comments could be replicated by so few on Dan’s blog…
Maybe they were triplets!
Kristen @ 3:00 and 3:02 +1
So glad to hear the support of targeting those who want to destroy us, no matter if they are US citizens. Hypothetically had we prior knowledge (should I say more than what we did have) of 9/11 and were aware one of the perps was a US citizen, do we not take measures, say a drone strike, against them because one is American? Hell no. Imagine the terrorists figure out we don’t kill our own they’d be recruiting us as shields. I see the day coming when they will allege we killed regular US citizens with our own drones. Rand Paul would never stop talking…
HELP, I HAVE A REQUEST!!!!
I HAVE BEEN TEMPORARILY SIDELINED WITH SHOULDER SURGERY. NEVER MUCH OF A TV WATCHER, I HAVE STARTED WATCHING MORE. HEARD OF A SHOW, HOMELAND, AND BOUGHT THE FIRST SEASON FROM ITUNES. OMG! I HAVE BECOME ADDICTED AND WE WATCHED THE WHOLE SEASON IN 3 DAYS. WENT BACK TO GET #2 AND FOUND IT IS ONLY AVAILABLE TO SHOWTIME CUSTOMERS. DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THAT IS THE CASE? IS THERE ANOTHER MEANS OF GETTING SEASON 2? I AM DESPERATE MAN…PLEASE HELP!
SORRY FOR CAPS, EASIER TO TYPE….
Dave Hicks, I am sorry for the innocents who were killed. I have no sympathy for Mr. Awlaki or Mr. Khan either, though he wasn’t on the kill list. He was working with Al Qaeda, so I have a hard time considering him to be an innocent victim.
If they had been captured and tried by the American justice system, isn’t there a strong possibility that they would have received the death penalty? When you are dealing with people who want to murder as many people as they can, I disagree with your position that the end never justifies the means.
hey Kristen and Debbie,
Check out the link below. It is a very detailed article on Barack obama’s older brother, and his perspective on things obama. Wait till you get to the part where you learn that Kenya has named a, wait for it…, named a ….rest stop…. after our obama!
I’m serious! This stuff can’t be made up!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290803/My-little-brother-Barack-Obama-Hes-12-wives-accused-o-beating-wants-President-Kenya–Meet-Obamas-VERY-outspoken-sibling.html
Debbie at 5:00 pm
“… I disagree with your position that the end never justifies the means.”
——————-
And therein lies the great difference between me an quite a few folk in both extreme wings.
Scott Whitaker, I hope this works for you.
http://www.ovguide.com/tv_season/homeland-season-2-247897
I’ve never considered myself an “extreme” liberal, Dave Hicks.
scott whitaker,
Next, check out “Breaking Bad” if you haven’t already. It’s the best TV show ever.
It seems to me ‘the end justifies the means’ is mostly only quoted when the means are questionable.
‘Breaking Bad’ is definitely one of the best tv shows ever. Who’d a thought Malcolm’s dad had such a dark side?! Bryan Cranston is one helluva talented actor and I’m glad he’s getting some movie roles.
“Drones. You liberals get your panties in a wad over a couple of cases of water boarding, where we received valuable info from terrorist. NOW, Obama blows these terrorist heads off, and we get no intel, and far more increased hatred of those crazy muslims
U all, but leave the horse you rode in on alone. He didn’t do anything!”
–Bob
Bob didn’t mention it, but his chief objection to drones, and the chief reason behind his advocacy of waterboarding (which does not produce useful intel, btw) is that death comes too quickly and cleanly via drones. Whereas torture, why, there’s FUN in that.
Remember the demented kid in your neighborhood who liked to put firecrackers in a cat’s butt and then light them? Ho, ho, ho, the reaction! It made them feel powerful. At least half of those kids are prison long-term these days.
Fortunately for Bob, he’s not. Yet.
Re: Debbie at 5:13 pm
And she-who-must-not-be-named has repeatedly disclaimed being extreme in the other direction, too.
.
-
For ‘Breaking Bad’ fans:
Who would you put money on in a fight? Walter White or Chuck Norris? My money’s on Walt.
Dave Hicks, AAAGHH!!
Seriously Dave H, what do you think should be done in cases such as Awlaki’s?
“Drones. You liberals get your panties in a wad over a couple of cases of water boarding, where we received valuable info from terrorist.”
Really? When was this?
DaveHicks, I’m with Dan in that I differentiate between incorrect strikes on innocent bystanders and strikes on legitimate targets where some non-combatants (or not) happen to be. Drone strikes should be subject to the highest level of scrutiny and quality of information used, and if after that some terrorists child or adventuring American gets killed in the process…that’s what happens. I find use of drones infinitely superior to invasion, occupation, or massive inconveniencing of Americans here at home in the interests of security theatre. Ditching my shampoo samples and flip flops in the security line at the airport makes me feel no safer at all. Killing the bad guys before they have a chance to execute another attack here makes me feel somewhat safer. Not that there’s any constitutional right to feel “safe”.
Sure there are potential legal issues, as there are with most of our foreign policy for the last 12 years.
I think the following quotation from 1945 might be of interest in the things which are happening that are contrary to the traditional America values:
In Germany, they first came for the communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Catholic.
Then they came for me –
and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.
-Martin Niemoller 1945
The non-field-of-combat nature of today’s terrorists / war-on terrorism presents some serious challenges to such a question, to be sure.
However, I distrust the world-policeman role and the star-chamber nature of the legal issues starting at the heading “A Legal Quandary” in my 2:43 pm post.
When there is no true battle field and no recognized “state/country” v. “state/country”, I question unilateral designation of someone being a “combatant.”
I think Old blue suggested an important question at 4:14 pm, “But if we were looking at another country that was following these policies, we might very well conclude that that country was a police state.” Say for example, were North Korea to unilaterally declare that Jean H. Lee, of the Associated Press, was exciting other to attack them and target her, during the current tension, would that be OK?
In fact, the whole issue of “exciting other to” bothers me.
Then we have the whole issue of the host countries’ sovereignty.
The very fact that Mr. Barron and Mr. Lederman had such problems with the issues suggest that these questions are far from settled.
The very fact that, “Then a senator, Mr. Obama had called the Bush theory that a president could bypass a statute requiring warrants for surveillance “illegal and unconstitutional” [also see: http://tinyurl.com/35jo46 ] carries over to this issue, IMHO.
What I would recommend is that, at a minimum, the whole statutory area of the Executive authority to bypass a statute needs to be reexamined and re-legislated in this country. Maybe, some world-wide public dialogue — not on does “x” person belong on a “kill list”; but the very existence of such list and, if approved, criteria for be on one.
Contra, There are a lot of things that make “Breaking Bad” utterly fascinating.
1) The camera work is like nothing I’ve ever seen on TV.
2) Walt, the mild-mannered high-school chemistry teacher, becomes the epitome of everything (presumably) that he despised. He steps into another words and it transforms him into a master game-player.
3) The chemistry. Before “Breaking Bad,” not too many people knew or understood the P2P + methylamine + metal catalyst cook. That was way, way, way old school, since ephedrine reduction (or pseudophedrine reduction) came along. It is also the all-time simplest method. For folks that don’t necessarily cotton to the history of clandestine methamphetamine production, the P2P + methylamine + metal catalyst cook produced racemic meth, which is half d-meth and half l-meth. The l-meth is inactive, only the d-meth is the good stuff. The favored (these days) ephedrine reduction, by contrast, produces 100 percent d-meth. 30 years ago I spent 3 solid weeks in the chemical reference section at McKeldin Library at the University of Maryland sorting all this stuff out (I’m a curious mofo).
4. The plot of “Breaking Bad” is amazing.
I agree. If Walt had a couple seconds to think about it, the other guy is toast.
Re: Doug Thompson at 6:16 pm
That’s one of my favorite quotes.
From the RT re: my comment @ 6:45 pm
http://tinyurl.com/9wc88p9
Anyone want to try for the Capitol Quip: Somewhere, Over the Rainbow … @
Heard on the Hill — Roll Call’s Gossip Blog?
http://hoh.rollcall.com/capitol-quip-somewhere-over-the-rainbow/
Read the Constitution. Then make a decision on the drone killings.
Dan is incorrect scott whitaker,
The best show that has ever been on television is The Wire. The best character on the show is Omar, case you ponder’n.
Awesome entertainment, you start season one and you’ll go have more surgery so you can finish the rest.
Breaking Bad is good and you will be entertained, but the Wire just rocks.
Walter White has become a firm believer in the end justifying the means.
THANKS FOR THE RECOMMENDATIONS.HAVE SEEN SEASON 1 OF BREAKING BAD BUT IT WAS TOO VIOLENT FOR MY WIFE. WILL CHECK OUT THE WIRE. Y’ALL HAVE TO CHECKOUT HOMELAND, REALLY GOOD.
ALSO, HOMELAND’S TOPIC IS VERY CONTEMPORARY; DRONE STRIKES.
I FIND IT IRONIC THAT CONSERVATIVES ARE OPPOSED TO DRONE STRIKES WHICH CAUSE CONSIDERABLY LESS COLLATERAL DAMAGE I.E. CIVILIAN DEATHS, THAN CONVENTIONAL WARFARE YET THEY ROUNDLY SUPPORTED BUSH’S CONTRIVED WAR AGAINST WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. THAT WAR KILLED OVER 4,300 AMERICANS. COLLATERAL DAMAGE I.E. CIVILIAN DEATHS: NUMBERS RANGE FROM 66,000 TO AS HIGH AS 120,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
SOMEHOW CONSERVATIVES “GET THEIR PANTIES IN A WAD” OVER THE DEATH OF A US CIVILIAN WHO COHABITATED WITH AL QAEDA BUT WITH SOME TWISTED FORM OF RATIONALIZING, MYOPIA, WHATEVER, SEES NOTHING WRONG WITH KILLING OVER 4,000 AMERICANS AND SCORES OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS. THIS LOGIC TOTALLY ESCAPES ME, YET I KNOW POLITICS AND THE SHORTSIGHTEDNESS IT PROMOTES IS PRIMARILY RESPONSIBLE.
The Wire is awesome. It was conceived, created and produced by David Simon, who was the editor of The Diamondback when I was at the University of Maryland. We weren’t friends, although we shared some. The best man at David’s wedding is a good friend of mine Tony Pipitone, who I’ve written about on this blog. He’s a great journalist.
The difference is The Wire is a seat-of-your-pants thriller. It’s more violent than “Breaking Bad,” which has a lot more black humor to break up the tension. I agree with Mike Scott that Omar is one of the best characters ever in any TV serial.
When David Simon was editor of The Diamondback (which published 5 days/week when school was in session) it was a GREAT newspaper. Probably the best college newspaper anywhere. Tony was his managing editor; they both went on to The Sun and moved on from there.
Doug Thompson, please let us know what you think is happening that are “contrary to traditional American values.”
Traditional American values are some of those things that everyone defines differently.
Oh, and for Ahead out there…”the end justifies the means” is another quotation attributable to Niccolo Machiavelli.
Scott Whitaker, if you’ve got access to Netflix (or don’t object to using back channels), I’d like to recommend House of Cards. Only one 13-episode season so far (season 2 has/is about to start filming), but great writing, excellent cast, and, like Homeland, very timely.
House of Cards is very good.
IMHO Lillyhammer (8 episodes on Netflix) is better. And . . . it’s not violent, and it’s funny as hell!
scott whitaker 9:20 pm
I don’t know what you classify me as, politically. Don’t really much care.
However, if you think that I ever approved of “BUSH’S CONTRIVED WAR” you are sadly mistaken. I fully agreed with Powell’s “if you break it, you own it.”
BTW, what’s with the all caps?
“Weeds” is also an excellent show.
Is anyone watching The Americans?
DAVE H, ADDRESSED ALL CAPS EARLIER. SHOULDER JUST OPERATED ON AND IT IS SO MUCH EASIER TO TYPE (WHICH I’M NOT GOOD AT WITH TWO HANDS). IT DOES LOOK OBNOXIOUS SO I’LL STOP.
CAN’T SAY I WAS ADDRESSING YOU, BUT CONSERVATIVES IN GENERAL AND THEIR DOUBLE STANDARD.
I didn’t stop did I?
I do believe in The Prince Niccolo Machiavelli say:
“The prince should be as strong as a lion and as shrewd as a fox, and he may have to trick his enemies and his own people.”
“in actions of all men, especially princes, where there is no recourse to justice, the end is all that counts. A prince should only be concerned with conquering or maintaining a state, for the means will always be judged to be honorable and praiseworthy by each and every person, because the masses always follow appearances and the outcomes of affairs, and the world is nothing other than the masses. The few do not find a place wherever the masses are supported. [emphasis added]”
———-
IMHO, good advice for the authoritarian — not so good for a Democratic / Elective / Representative leader or goverment.
Missed the line about all caps, before.
I don’t watch much TV. Don’t watch any “series.”
So, I didn’t get that far in the earlier post.
Hope your shoulder is better soon — CAP NOT WITHSTANDING.
-
-
Dave H,
Watch “Breaking Bad.” It’s amazing!
Listening to Solomon Burke radio on Pandora right now (I have a 5 speaker + subwoofer system hooked to my computer; it blasts). Holy smoke! The guy was amazing. Listening to him tells you exactly where Otis Redding came from.
I am so surprised. Who would have ever imagined such a thing?
[/sarcasm]
http://tinyurl.com/a7ejx8d
**
Before the conclave, horse-trading has begun
By By VICTOR L. SIMPSON, Associated Press – 11 hours ago
VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican insists that the cardinals participating in the upcoming conclave will vote their conscience, each influenced only by silent prayers and reflection. Everybody knows, however, that power plays, vested interests and Machiavellian maneuvering are all part of the game, and that the horse-trading is already under way.
Can the fractious Italians rally behind a single candidate? Can the Americans live up to their surprise billing as a power broker? And will all 115 cardinals from around the world be able to reach a meeting of minds on whether the church needs a people-friendly pope or a hard-edged manager able to tame Vatican bureaucrats?
This time there are no star cardinals and no big favorites, making the election wide open and allowing the possibility of a compromise candidate should there be deadlock.
While deliberations have been secret, there appear to be two big camps forming that have been at loggerheads in the run-up to the conclave.
SNIP
**
I’m okay with drone strikes when necessary or beneficial in eliminating terrorists who are otherwise too protected to be captured for intel or when their death serves a significant blow to enemy operations, or anytime it is a low value target. However, you do lose any possibility of gathering intelligence. And Dan, by the way, remarkably consistent, is wrong again. Waterboarding did yield valuable intelligence and was even a piece of the puzzle that led to locating bin Laden.
My only issue is with how liberals will now defend drone strikes and assassination because it is “their guy” doing it when similar acts by the previous president were characterized as war crimes.
I’m okay with drone strikes when necessary or beneficial in eliminating terrorists who are otherwise too protected to be captured for intel or when their death serves a significant blow to enemy operations, or anytime it is a low value target. However, you do lose any possibility of gathering intelligence. And Dan, by the way, remarkably consistent, is wrong again. Waterboarding did yield valuable intelligence and was even a piece of the puzzle that led to locating bin Laden.
My only issue is with how liberals will now defend drone strikes and assassination because it is “their guy” doing it when similar acts by the previous president were characterized as war crimes.
–Chuck
Chuck, waterboarding (e.g. torture) did not — and does not – yield any useful intel after 9/11. You’re simply incorrect about that. You guys are taking all sorts of pains and making all sorts of incredible stretches as some kind of after-the-fact justification for war crimes, that’s all. It’s pure BS, and if you look at the evidence closely, and examine your heart, you’ll arrive at that conclusion.
Besides that, you cannot point to ANY criticism I’ve EVER made about drone strikes under GWB. You’re incorrect about that, too.
My only issue is with how liberals will now defend drone strikes and assassination because it is “their guy” doing it when similar acts by the previous president were characterized as war crimes.
Chuck. Yes there were war crimes committed by the previous President and the guys who pulled his strings. But they had nothing to do with drone strikes.
It was sanctioning torture, and lying to get us into the Iraq war in the first place and killing over 100000 civilian noncombatants.
“I HAVE BEEN TEMPORARILY SIDELINED WITH SHOULDER SURGERY.”
Wishing you a speedy recovery, Scott.
Kristen: I believe in the Contitution and the Bill of Rights.
I believe that those who obtain public office and swear to defend the constitution against all enemies foreight and domestic be required to do just that. For instance the new CIA Director was sworn in on notes George Washington had written down but with no bill of rights attached. As far as I have been able to determine he is the only official that has ever been sworn in this way. Little by little the government is taking our rights away from us.
Our schools, now, are managed more by the Federal Government than the localities themselves. This has resulted in 80% of the children graduating high school in New York not being able to read or write. They even want to get into what food is prepared for them in school.
I can recall the 1950s easily. During those times one could leave their front door unlocked almost anywhere in the Country, not anymore. Children either passed their classes or they where held back a year until they could pass.
In every instance where the government has taken over management of
institutions that previously been managed by local governments the results have been a disaster.
I believe that anyone public office holder who does not stay faithful to the oath of office should be removed from that office regardless of which party he or she belongs to.
I believe teachers unions should be abolished and teachers should be required to take a test for competience before being hired. That if their classes results reflected that they did not have the skills to teacher that they be replaced. Their compensation should be based on how well they do their jobs as is the case in the private sector.
No America should be executed without a trial by their peers. However I do
believe that any citizen that has planned or been part of a plan to commit a terrorist attack and that can be proven has given up their civil rights and
taking them out with a drone in a foreign country where they cannot easily be captured and tried can be executed in a time of war.
I took an oath in the 60s to protect and defend the constitution and I do not recall any part of that oath stating it was only for the duration of my service.
That means to me that I am still obligated to honor that oath as every member of the US Military is.
Dan, the fact is, you don’t know what your talking about. The ‘experts’ went on TV to say torture was ineffective because that’s what folks like you wanted to hear. The fact is, waterboarding did yield useful information and did in fact lead to a piece of the puzzle that led to getting bin Laden.
Additionally, I didn’t point to criticism of drones under Bush because he was more interested in intel than Obama is. However, you guys considered incarcerating terrorists at Gitmo a war crime, yet you’re okay with a letter saying he has the authority to arbitrarily kill Americans via drones or any other means if he thinks its necessary. You can deny it all you want, but anyone with a shred of honesty knows that liberals would have brayed themselves to death if Bush had taken the same position.
Lastly, I’m not trying to justify anything. Under the circumstances, I’m okay with waterboarding. I recognize that this is a war, not a debate. I think you do what it takes to win and that it is more important for us to win the war than it is the debate about torture.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120328104328.htm
“He found, however, that under realistic circumstances interrogational torture is far more likely to produce ambiguous and false, rather than clear and reliable, information. “The use of torture makes it possible to extract both real and false confessions and no ability by the state to distinguish the two,” wrote the author.”
I’d love to see a source with the objective opinion that the US got any useful information at all through use of torture. After rooting around for a few minutes, the closest I can find is the scenario presented in Zero Dark Thirty. Even t
Bush’s lawyers who crafted the defense of the use if torture don’t seem eager to own the results. Odd.
Too bad Bush didn’t stick with drone strikes instead of ordering invasions. The deficit would look a lot different.
Below is a link to an editorial with which I agree. We would significantly reduce our defense budget and not compromise national security in my view. I’m sure others on here will disagree.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/05/opinion/come-home-america.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0
Doug Thompson
I cannot begin to address the incredible cluelessness of your post concerning education. 80 percent of the students from New York can’t read or write? Amazing.
It stands to reason if a person is tortured, they will say anything to stop the pain, even if they have no useful information. Sounds like we are not only violating human rights, the Geneva Convention, we are sending ourselves on wild goose chases with bad intel.
Yeesh. We will be paying for the tragic idea for a loooong time to come
To the person who noted the debt would look a lot different had we not invaded Iraq, what’s a few trillion among friends?
Dan, perhaps I misunderstood? You favor drone strikes?
sherry,
Yeah, I do, against terrorists, on foreign soil. If there are innocent bystanders hanging around the terrorists who get killed or injured, that’s too bad. But I also favor discipline/prosecution of the people responsible for drone strikes against innocents in cases for which it’s later determined no terrorists were involved.
I’ve personally seen torture work. In 1968 in Vietnam, some ARVN (South Vietnamese) soldiers had a suspect. They beat on him a while and, sure enough, he led them to a weapons cache.
I’m not saying torture is right, I’m saying it does work.
Dan Casey | March 11, 2013 at 12:07 pm
Just to be sure I understand your position, by ” against terrorists, on foreign soil” do you include all other sovereign foreign nations?
Would you approve of drone strikes in Canada, France, Israel, China, Russia, etc, etc, etc?
“80 percent of the students from New York can’t read or write? Amazing”
it’s true, do you ever read anything but the rt?
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/345148
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/officials-most-nyc-high-school-grads-need-remedial-help-before-entering-cuny-community-colleges/
http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/80-of-new-york-high-school-grads-cant-read-despite-being-no-1-in-school-spending/
rt is not the only newsource you low info voters
No, it’s not “true”. It says they needed remedial help with reading and writing before starting college classes, not that they can’t read or write.There’s a good chunk of people participating on this blog about which I’d say the same. No names.
OK, now we have gone from 80 percent of high school graduates in New York are illiterate to 80 percent of high school grads in New York CITY can’t read or write, to 80 percent of the city grads can’t read or write to college-proficiency levels.
That narrows the scope a hell of a lot. In other words, it’s a lot of BS RWer spin. Needing remedial help in college does not = illiteracy. A lot of them need it in Virginia, too. PART of the reason is that a lot more high school grads are going to college than ever before.
Btw, pammala, you demonstrate daily right here on this blog that you can’t read or write at a college level. You’re the pot calling the kettle black!
ok, there we have it!
Dan and Kristen are now on record defending the deplorable concept of “80% of NYC high school graduates needing remedial assistance with reading and writing”, is normal! They even point out that, “heck, we even have THAT in Virginia”!
I’m serious! Goodness gracious, I can’t make this stuff up!
Of course, these are the same folks who think that low-income parents should NOT have alternative educational choices for their kids. Yep, keep ‘m tethered to government schools!
HayFrank and pammalala picking this up and running with it is part of what makes this blog so fun.
Frank, what you’re ignoring for the purposes of your silly razzing is that in your “good old days” a distinct minority of high school grads even went onto college. Now a majority do. It’s unlikely that any are worse educated than they used to be; rather, the pool of those matriculating is much greater. They are not illiterate (as originally charged).
Much more simply, it’s just that the less literate ones who used to eschew college are now applying for it. It’s unfair to pretend that’s an failure of the education system you despise so much. Nothing has changed except more kids are trying to further their learning. That’s not a bad thing.
“I don’t ever believe that “the end justify the means.”
“And therein lies the great difference between me an quite a few folk in both extreme wings.”
comments by the same poster
An advocate of adding an unlimited number to the 300 Million existing civilian owned guns in the U.S., many of them military grade, while reducing restraints on their acquistion and secret possession, in order to make us “safer”, and he wants everyone to know he doesn’t ever believe the end justifies the means. And he wants us to know he’s always moderate, too.
We now know that in Pulaski this weekend, they set their clocks forward to April 1st.
hey Everybody
Check out any of Frank’s posts from anytime. I thought ole Dan-o’s posters had the right to choose whether to constantly post inanity.
I guess drone isn’t just the sound of a brainless robot. Or is it?
I’m not serious! This stuff can be made up!
Holy cow, Dan. You still don’t get it. i ask, in essence, “what’s wrong with our government high schools that 80% of GRADUATES can’t read and write well enough to succeed in college, and you say…, wait for it…”NOTHING” is wrong…”it’s just that the pool of high school grads going to college is larger now than what it used to be”! That’s it? That’s all you’ve got?
Hey, I know! Maybe we just need to establish another grade-level in government schools for those folks to graduate from BEFORE the government teachers pass’em on to get ACCEPTED to college, eh, Dan?
Why are the government schools passing those folks with sufficiently good grades for them to get INTO college, but can’t do college work?
You don’t have to did very far for the answer to that question, Dan.
Doug Thompson @2:57am, besides your clueless inaccuracy about New York schools, you also seem to realize that the Pledge of Allegiance you’ve recited since kindergarten aready bound you to the defense of the nation long before your military oath, which was occasioned by, and therefore inplicitly tied to, your service. It didn’t change or supercede the pledge of allegiance you’d already been under; furthermore, both are simply verbal pledges, as dependent on personal intention as verbal leases and handshake car sales.
And selective and romantized nostalgia of the ’50′s might not be the most useful prism for the world that the 50′s left us with today. Just a suggestion.
My previous post to Doug Thompson should read “you DON”T seem to realize the Pledge…”etc.
I think I have shared this information previously. As a high school student in the early 1960s I had 2 goals. First, I worked to achieve grades that kept me eligible for sports. That meant C grades in my day. Second, when I took report cards home I wanted to keep my parents off my back. That took Cs or better. When I graduated no college except for the local junior college would admit me. My options were join a branch of the service or attend the local junior college. There were 370 students in my graduating class. 70 of those went directly from high school on to college. That’s less than 20%. Many of the young men went into one branch of the service or another. Many of our vocational grads went to work as plumbers, welders, HVAC workers, carpenters, secretaries, etc. Many got married and started families. There were good manufacturing jobs available in my area at that time and many went to work there and earned relatively good livings.
I attended the local junior college. I didn’t meet the base requirements for English Composition or College Algebra. As a result my first semester I took “remedial” English and Math. Fortunately I passed those and then took English Comp I and College Algebra second semester. In short Frank, I was one of those illiterates you and pammala focus on in your derogatory comments. Illiterates, who despite there weaknesses, deserve to be treated with dignity and respect simply because they are your fellow humans. I think you know that I eventually completed my doctorate.
I started my career in higher education in 1970 and I can tell you that from that point to today we have had first, an increase in the portion of high school graduates who choose to attend college. Second, we have had an increasing percentage of them arriving a college doors with poor writing, reading and math skills among other challenges.
My home state of Indiana has more than 1.2 million people in the labor force whose education level is the high school diploma or less. We have several hundred thousand more who started college but never earned a degree or certificate in anything. I haven’t studied Virginia’s labor force in a while so I don’t know the educational attainment levels. My guess is that it may be somewhat better than Indiana’s, primarily because of Virginia’s proximity to Washington, DC and second because of the great community college system there.
I agree that K12 education needs to be reformed. Students who graduate from high school in the future need to be proficient in written & oral communication skills; they need to be able to listen to what others say and respond effectively and appropriately; they need strong math skills and the ability to solve problems; they need an understanding of our history as a nation and the world in which they live; they need to be able to access information, sort through it and be able to separate fact from fiction in that information; among many other abilities they need also to appreciate that people are different and that those differences need to be seen as good rather than evil.
So Frank, among the things I meant to say in this rant is that I guess I’m one of those “illiterates” you and pammala dismiss in your comments. You probably would have thrown me away back in the day. Given the career I’ve been fortunate to have had since then, I think that might have been a mistake on your part. As a result, I would advise you to be a little more careful on the judgments you make about others.
“I think you do what it takes to win and that it is more important for us to win the war than it is the debate about torture.”
You and Dick Cheney should go hunting.
Dan, given your research efforts, can you give us an idea which type of meth production was predominant around that time in the Mid-Atlantic crank trade (per the Outlaws, Pagans, long haul truckers, etc.)?
Frank, you’re asking me what’s wrong with something that is, at best, a lie.
That’s what’s wrong with it, Frank. It’s a lie.
Dan, given your research efforts, can you give us an idea which type of meth production was predominant around that time in the Mid-Atlantic crank trade (per the Outlaws, Pagans, long haul truckers, etc.)?
Warren, it was P2P + methylamine + a catalyst — usually some type of metal. I knew a chemist once who used lead acetate sometimes, or some kind of nickel at other times. He got busted in 83 with a gigantic lab in a farmhouse in Davidsonville, Maryland, but the search was illegal so he walked. He was later convicted of conspiracy for selling his formula to an undercover agent and did 3 years.
After the feds began tightly controlling P2P, some enterprising chemists started making their own P2P out of less-controlled phenylacetic acid. Some of them made their own methylamine, too, from unskedded percursors.
These controls directly led to people usuing the ephedrine-reduction method of meth production, which yields 100 percent d-meth, and when that recipe hit the intenet, all hell broke loose.
just when have I said you were illiterite or a mistake? .my guess is low info voter babe…oh and congrats on your illustrious life, boohoo
“Btw, pammala, you demonstrate daily right here on this blog that you can’t read or write at a college level. You’re the pot calling the kettle black!”
big freaking deal, couldn’t care less what YOU think of me dannydoo..at least I don’t work for the rt ..lol..and hon, most people with intelligent minds can read them…you just don’t like my politics so you dog me…what a tolerant libbiecom, why don’t you dog the libbies when they make grammatical or spelling errors, don’t see that here dannydoo
could you read that? could you understand that?
“Yep, keep ‘m tethered to government schools!” Frank | March 11, 2013 at 1:59 pm
“Why are the government schools passing those folks with sufficiently good grades for them to get INTO college, but can’t do college work?” Frank | March 11, 2013 at 3:00 pm
ANSWER:
Another unfunded and costly idea of GW Bush – right up there with unfunded wars, prescription drug plans and tax cuts for the wealthy – the No-Child-Left-Behind law. On Jan. 8, 2002, with his signing the NCLB law, this government mandated program became one of the first major pieces of domestic legislation of the George W. Bush administration
This law did nothing to improve public school education and mandated ALL children be proficient in reading and math by 2014. Instead of education, public schools became collectors of information for the Bush administration in their quest to de-fund public education and instead, put money into private “charter” schools – [read as Christian schools]. A very bad piece of legislation in a long list of wrong-headed Bush administration policies.
“… Gallup finds no consensus among either the entire American adult population or parents of school-aged children that the landmark education act has improved the quality of education received by public school children in the U.S. In fact, of those who are familiar with NCLB, a large majority say either it has had no effect on students’ education or has made it worse. A bit of better news for supporters of NCLB is the finding that parents of school-aged children are a little more positive about the impact of the Act than are those who do not have children in school.
Of potential importance is the fact that those who claim to be very familiar with NCLB are most strongly convinced that it has had a negative impact. While this could indicate that more intimate exposure to NCLB and its implementation causes one to become more negative, it could also be that critics of the law are much more engaged on the issue, and pay closer attention to it, than do those who support it.”
http://www.gallup.com/poll/122375/Americans-Doubt-Effectiveness-No-Child-Left-Behind.aspx
[my italicized text]
Thanks, Dan, that’s interesting, and an important supplement to understanding the social history of the drug.
Whereas “Breaking Bad” reflects the context of the contemporary meth scourge, many viewers might not realize what changes that context has seen over the years. So it seems that in the ’70′s and early ’80′s, even meth itself was a product of different precursors and production methods than now.
As for that social context, illicit meth, (often known as crank before crack caused too much homophonic confusion), was the amphetamine wave that largely replaced pharmaceutical speed that had been dominant in the post WW2 years. While meth became prevalent in outlaw biker subculture, it also spread into some other, often undiscerning demographics, as a cheap powder stimulant on the coattails of cocaine’s glamorization in the ’70′s. And as indicated by Dan’s post, production was a more specialized affair, absent the shake and bake pseudephedrine methods and wholesale Mexican gang involvement that inform “Breaking Bad”. Like “Zero Dark Thirty” and “Argo”, the back story of factual history puts the Hollywood version in necessary perspective.
Nice try, Hillary, but Frank will ignore this stuff because it doesn’t comport with his desire to see “government schools” abolished.
He doesn’t realize it, but he’s angling to go back to the days of Massive Resistance.
Well Dan, Frank was looking for a “government” scapegoat, and I gave him the bona fide culprit.
Hey Dan at #195….sooo, all you can think of now is to throw the race card?
That is such a typical lib response, why am I not surprised that it’s all you can come up with? Well, I’m not surprised, ’cause that’s what libs do.
A post @ #195???
#s 82, 84, 100, 101, 102
…and pammalalala swoops in once again and drops a few word-turds on the blog…
Hillary,
He was just one key to the right off. Coming from Frank that’s not too bad.
Geesh! How could I miss the symbolism of Frank’s typo. It was one key to the LEFT off. I imagine that Frank is suffering terrible finger cramps now.
Frank,
I think you should quit jabbering and take a break from this blog, reassess and then come back and begin posting thoughtful comments. You should probably begin posting under your full name, too. Your incessant, immature chiding is truly getting to be a bore.
Dan@9:41
Getting to be a bore? Long past that stage. And amen to that comment.
“Getting to be a bore?”
That ship sailed a month ago.
But Dan, he’s my favorite chew toy…
Frank,
If, by chance you’re still reading the blog, I hope maybe we can meet sometime for lunch; I still need to give DMatt and you those cool chedderhead hats I bought for you two for Christmas because of that stupid bet you lost. I really think it wouldn’t be fair for you to get kicked off the blog scot free without a small memento of what epic screw up you were here.
Otherwise, please don’t go away mad. Just…go…away.
In honor of our recently departed friend frank, I’m changing my Avatar back to one of my favorites in memory of frank’s doubling down in his dopey “Hook, line and sinker” shtick.
Frank leaves the blog exactly the same way he entered it; as a world class ass clown! I was thinking about renting a hearse for his departure but I found a short bus that I thought he’d settle into a bit more comfortably. Happy trails, my friend, and try not to lick the windows!