2011.09.01
Lexington takes up the Confederate flag debate tonight
Tonight the Lexington City Council is scheduled to debate an ordinance that would restrict the flying of flags and banners. Some see it aimed at the Confederate flags that pop up in conjunction with the burial places of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson. The Sons of Confederate Veterans plan a protest.
We had a previous post on the topic here. The Associated Press has this update here.
One of the speakers tonight will be H.K. Edgerton, former Asheville NAACP leader and a Confederate heritage activist. Meanwhile, frequent blog reader Jack McGuire calls our attention to this YouTube video.
Fly the flag. It’s a symbol from the past history of our country. Many good men gave their lives fighting in support of what it meant to them–the right for each state of have certain rights. It is based on the Scottish St. Andrews cross. Why not let a flag that symbolizes one of the most down periods in our nation’s history. The union won; states’ rights were defeated. But, for half a nation this flag carries an emotional history. It should be flown in pride and love, never vengeance or hatred.
Comment by Straight Arrow — September 1, 2011 @ 12:06 pm
The Confederate flag is a relic of the Civil War. It is a historical symbol of the Confederacy which LOST the war & properly belongs in a museum. The North had four times the population & ten times the industrial capacity of the South. Some state that it stands for heritage not hate. I cannot agree. The emotional symbolism is too powerful & negative to be used as just another flag to be flown “in pride and love”. I do not subscribe to the notion that either side was all good or all evil. However, reliving the war forever & yearning for the “Lost Cause” myth does no one any good. Put the times in proper perspective & move on.
Comment by 3rdFred — September 1, 2011 @ 3:02 pm
The negative emotional cachet and racism that this flag generates are reasons to disallow its posting in any public space. Even Germany has a law forbidding the display of the Nazi swastika – a most popular symbol of WWII. AND – yes, I consider the rebel flag just as mean-spirited and hatred-spewing as a swastika. It’s a KKK symbol and everything about it identifies intolerance and loathing. Hopefully, Lexington will be 21st Century enough to put this symbol of hatred to rest.
Comment by BritWit — September 1, 2011 @ 3:14 pm
@3
You sir, are a fool. No treatment for it.
I myself have just informed Lexington Council that my planned weekend visit there is permanently cancelled. And the only way I will ever set foot there again will be in support of a protest.
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 2, 2011 @ 2:47 pm
@#3: BritWit, you nailed it. The flag belongs in museums as a reminder of the hatred of which humans are capable, much as bars of soap made from the fat of human flesh belong in the Holocaust Museum.
Comment by John — September 2, 2011 @ 4:09 pm
“BritWit, you nailed it. The flag belongs in museums as a reminder of the hatred of which humans are capable”
Well I tell ya, mine flys 24/7. And the day anyone tries to take it I have famous words from Chuck Heston on the subject.
“From my cold,dead hands”
Dio Vindice
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 2, 2011 @ 4:39 pm
Jack Mcgire@2:47
I’m sure they’ll miss you! Not!
Comment by dave — September 2, 2011 @ 7:16 pm
Glad to see some sanity on this issue. I agree. It belongs in museums and on porches, trucks and outhouses of folks like Jack, but not on public flagpoles. And Jack, back at you, “You sir, are a fool. No treatment for it.”
Comment by Sandi Saunders — September 2, 2011 @ 10:28 pm
@8
Lexington has a parade on Lee Jackson Day..it thrives on tourism because of its Confederate History. It’s streets are named after Confederate Generals. So if the flag can’t be flown on Confederate holidays, then why should they continue parades and other money making celebrations. Perhaps Lee and Jacksons graves should be moved from a City that wants to make money off their names and Confederate history, but doesn’t want to display the flag they fought and in Jacksons case died for .
2 of the 4 Council people who voted for the bill live on Jackson Ave…named for Stonewall Jackson. So they don’t see a problem with living on a street named after a Confederate hero or in a City repleat with Confederate history and memorabilia including the Confederate flag itself being sold throughout the City. So they are cowardly PC drivin hypocrites of the highest order.I think a boycott of Lexington is in order.All true Southerners, loyal to their heritage should avoid Lexington like the plague!
And Sandi, I have heard you say on other blogs how embarrassed you are of the people who live in South. Honey, people are leaving the north in droves so there is plenty of room for you up there if you want to leave.
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 3, 2011 @ 2:49 pm
Does freedom of expression enter into this discussion. I don’t care for the swastika, but you see it everywhere. The stars and bars stood for a people who wanted freedom for states rather to be completed controlled at a national level. Not all these people were slave holders and my heart aches for any and all who ever had to endure slavery. But to me, the stars and bars is a part of history so that we may never forget both the good and the bad. On a flagpole for one day, I don’t know. But I do know the people have spoken and in our country, majority rules.
Comment by Straight Arrow — September 3, 2011 @ 7:23 pm
Straight, I can guarantee you you don’t see the swastika hanging from government flagpoles in Germany, or anywhere else.
Anyone can hang the Stars and Bars from their home if they choose. There’s no issue with freedom of expression.
Jack, just for you I think we’ll head up to the Red Hen for dinner next week!
Comment by Kristen — September 5, 2011 @ 8:36 am
@11
You mean you are going to a town thats economy is significantly based on the Confederacy…what will they think back in Jersey?
And BTW here is what ACLU Va head Kent Willis said about the decision..
“City council could live to regret this ordinance, as it imposes unusually restrictive limits on the use of the light poles,” said Kent Willis, the ACLU’s executive director in Virginia. “Sometime in the future when city officials want to use those light poles to promote a special event they may find themselves handcuffed by their own lawmaking.”
In addition , the flag in question(at least the most notorious) is not the stars and bars, it’s the Southern Cross. The Stars and Bars was the first National Flag of the Confederacy featuring circular stars with 2 red and one white bar. The Southern Cross flag was modeled after the Cross of St Andrew. The apostle Andrew was believed to have been crucified on an x shaped cross.
“On a flagpole for one day, I don’t know.”
That really is pathetic…can’t even have the flag of Confederate Va. fly even one day, despite Lee-Jackson day parades and cermonies.. I think we ought to put them on the poles anyway whether the Council likes it or not and risk the “illegal fly flying” penalty. Or maybe we should do it right here in Roanoke, star a new tradition.
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 5, 2011 @ 11:02 am
#10 Wait. You see the swastika EVERYWHERE? Where do you live, Straight? I NEVER see it unless it’s on a website for racist, homophobic, white supremacists. I see the stars and bars all the time.
Comment by gdad — September 5, 2011 @ 11:51 am
Jack, your low level of communication never surprises me. I have indeed expressed embarrassment at southern people like you, but I have NEVER, not once, EVER said how embarrassed I was “of the people who live in South”! You are as dishonest as ever. Some things just never change.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — September 5, 2011 @ 12:57 pm
Kristen–Excellent point!
Comment by Straight Arrow — September 5, 2011 @ 2:46 pm
11.”Straight, I can guarantee you you don’t see the swastika hanging from government flagpoles in Germany, or anywhere else”
It is illegal there. But, don.t kid yourself, there are still Nazi sympathizers there.
BTW, the comparison of the CSA flag and the swastika is ridiculous. In WW2 the Nazis supposedly killed millions of jews.In the Civil War it was the Union aka the United States that was the murderer, as it still is across the world today. Indeed it is the US flag that represents evil and death worldwide, not the Confederate flag.
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 6, 2011 @ 7:51 am
Wow Jack I’d forgotten you don’t believe in the Holocaust.
And we have Nazi sympathizers here.
Comment by Kristen — September 6, 2011 @ 10:17 am
Jack–True that it would be possible to have more Peace Corp out there rather than War Corp. But, are you suggesting we permit terrorism run rampant throughout the world? What would you suggest?
Comment by Straight Arrow — September 6, 2011 @ 10:42 am
13–I’ve seen it on plenty of shirts, pants, and skin. Having said that I just sank my previous argument about the south’s St. Andrews Cross. I see it all these places also, as well as on bumper and pickup windows. All because we have freedom in this country. Thanks for pointing out my hypocrisy. I needed and accept it.
Comment by Straight Arrow — September 6, 2011 @ 10:54 am
“But, are you suggesting we permit terrorism run rampant throughout the world?”
I am suggesting that we are not the worlds policeman. And I am suggesting that attacking Iraq in a war based on lies is nothing short of murder. I also feel that the “terrorist” threat is way overstated and used as an excuse not only to take away our own peoples freedoms through the Patriot Act and Real ID, but also as an excuse to enter or war on other countries throughout the world. If world domination is not our game, then why are we in over 100 countries?
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 6, 2011 @ 12:28 pm
BTW.. a selective boycott of Lexington buisnesses is now underway. Flag friendly buisnesses will not be affected. The site is on the old “Save our Flag” site featured in an earlier post on this blog.If you are in Lexington you may list yourself on the flag friendly list to avoid the boycott. Here is the link….A full list of friendly and unfriendly buisness will soon be on.
http://saveourflags.webs.com/boycottlexington.htm
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 6, 2011 @ 1:31 pm
Jack, it’s a town ordinance. The businesses have nothing to do with it.
If you think they’re going to start flying the Confederate flag to appear “flag friendly”, you’re nuts.
Comment by Kristen — September 6, 2011 @ 2:55 pm
Jack–I support you in many of your stands; and I’m not trying to win an argument (wouldn’t be possible if I wanted to). Sometimes, it’s a matter of correctly interpreting what we see. We look at the same things, but interpret differently from others what we see. Either of us could be (and is) wrong. Time will tell.
Comment by Straight Arrow — September 6, 2011 @ 3:02 pm
22.”Jack, it’s a town ordinance. The businesses have nothing to do with it”
The buisnesses already targeted came out strongly for the ordinance…
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 6, 2011 @ 4:25 pm
Listen, I don’t care if the flag flies or not. But the city thrives because of W&L and VMI. Tourism, although nice to have, is a much less important factor in the city’s economy. To be completely honest, there are a lot of people who are still going to come genuflect at Lee’s and Jackson’s graves regardless of the flag ban. I was in town the other day running some errands and there were tourists taking pictures in front of Lee Chapel as always. Have fun boycotting though; those of us who love Lexington won’t miss you.
Comment by W&L '11 — September 6, 2011 @ 7:33 pm
“those of us who love Lexington won’t miss you”
but the buisnesses WILL miss our money.
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 7, 2011 @ 8:13 am
C’mon Jack…does this mean you won’t be buying your Lilly at Pumpkinseeds anymore?
Comment by Kristen — September 7, 2011 @ 10:35 am
No, it means the 10-20 family members I bring yearly for meals, sightseeing etc will be spending their money elsewhere from now on. And there will hundreds of others doing the same thing. In an economy that is barely putting along, the council people in Lexington have just cost there buisnesses thousands of dollars.
I had planned a trip to Lexington for labor Day weekend, instead we(several relatives and I) went to The Vets memorial in Bedford and to Natural Bridge..so Lexingtons loss is their gain.
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 7, 2011 @ 11:09 am
BTW you Yankees and Yankee sympathizers should take at look at the video. This guy really conveys what it means to be a Southerner and love the south. A true Southerner has a feeling of belonging and being a part of something that Northerners just don’t get.
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 7, 2011 @ 11:14 am
W&L ’11 is right on!
Comment by Sandi Saunders — September 7, 2011 @ 11:47 am
“But the city thrives because of W&L and VMI.”
First of all you said yourself of the people visiting Lee chapel.. so you’re premise is somewhat in doubt by your own admission. And also isn’t Lee buried at VMI and isn’t the L in Washington and Lee, Robert E Lee, who fought under the Confederate Flag? As you can easily see, Lexington itself revolves around the flag too, whether it likes it or not. To bannish the flag, is to bannish itself.
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 7, 2011 @ 12:24 pm
Awww Jack, we just have to settle for feelings of victory!
Comment by Kristen — September 7, 2011 @ 12:46 pm
Jack the great Civil War and southern heritage scholar doesn’t even know that Robert E. Lee is buried on the W&L campus, not at VMI. And that goes for his horse too!
Comment by dave — September 7, 2011 @ 1:56 pm
“Lee is buried on the W&L campus” Wasn’t sure which campus. Doesn’t change the argument one iota.
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 7, 2011 @ 2:33 pm
“But the city thrives because of W&L and VMI. Tourism, although nice to have, is a much less important factor in the city’s economy.”
Statistics, statistics, statistics. Not saying its not, but I believe you’ll find they are one, two in the pecking order.
Comment by Uptheriver — September 7, 2011 @ 3:19 pm
Oh, I’m a good old rebel
Now thats just what I am
And for this yankee nation
I do no give a damn.
I’m glad I fit (fought) against ‘er (her)
I only wish we’d won
I ain’t asked any pardon
For anything I’ve done.
I hates the Yankee nation
And eveything they do
I hates the declaration
Of independence too.
I hates the glorious union
‘Tis dripping with our blood
I hates the striped banner
And fit (fought) it all I could.
I rode with Robert E. Lee
For three years there about
Got wounded in four places
And I starved at Pint (Point) Lookout.
I coutch (caught) the roomatism (rheumatism)
Campin’ in the snow
But I killed a chance of Yankees
And I’d like to kill some mo’. (more.)
Three hundred thousand Yankees
Is stiff in southern dust
We got three hundred thousand
Before they conquered us.
They died of southern fever
And southern steel and shot
I wish they was three million
Instead of what we got.
I can’t take up my musket
And fight ‘em down no mo’ (more)
But I ain’t a-goin’ to love ‘em (them)
Now that is serten sho. (certain sure.)
And I don’t want no pardon
For what I was and am
I won’t be reconstructed
And I do not give a damn.
Oh, I’m a good old rebel
Now that’s just what I am
And for this Yankee nation
I do no give a damn.
I’m glad I fought against ‘er (her)
I only wish we’d won
I ain’t asked any pardon
For anything I’ve done.
I ain’t asked any pardon
For anything I’ve done
Hoyt Axton
Comment by Jack Mcguire — September 7, 2011 @ 4:29 pm
Lexington is triply blessed, it is a two college town, has historical significance that does not just rely on the rebel sentiment and it is in a beautiful location. No, losing the “flaggers” will not not hurt Lexington in any way at all. None.
As I (and others) have said all along, what makes The South special has nothing to do with a battle flag or where it is flown (it in fact diminishes the cause IMO). The South is a state of mind, a reverence for the past, a respect for tradition and a patriotic service that was, is and will remain remarkable. There is no flag needed for reverence, respect, honor and appreciation. Some of us live it every day, flag free.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — September 7, 2011 @ 9:12 pm
Jack, bud, of you don’t know where Lee is buried you don’t know much.
Comment by gdad — September 7, 2011 @ 9:46 pm
@uptheriver: I only have anecdotal evidence from when I lived in Lex, but I always saw many more residents/students than I did tourists. And many of the tourists are there not as tourists, per se, but because of the Horse Center. The horse people aren’t going to care about the flag one iota. I also have spoken with older professors who have said that the reason Lexington has a thriving downtown is because of the introduction of women at W&L. All the tourism sites were there before (Lee and Jackson have been dead 140+ years now), but the city was still dead.
@Jack: Some rebel you are. You bring 10-20 relatives to Lexington yearly and somehow couldn’t remember that Lee was buried at Washington and Lee? Further, if you actually brought that large a group, you would know that the vast majority of hotels and nearly all restaurants that can affordably take a party that large are actually in Rockbridge County, not Lexington City. So you could still bring all your people, genuflect to Lee (wherever you think he’s buried), and not drop a dime in the city coffers. Fail.
Comment by W&L '11 — September 7, 2011 @ 10:08 pm
The Confederate flag is a symbol of freedom lost. It is representative of a nation that was founded in liberty and along a Constitution. What we have now started with Lincoln and continued with Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Bush and Obama. It is far from a free country. We hope that we will be able to reverse history.
Comment by david7134 — January 17, 2012 @ 11:51 am
I just noted some of the other comments on racism and hate. I went to college with David Duke, he flys the American flag, thus is that a flag of racism and hate? Actually, in historical context it is, more so that the Confederate banner. I have noted that those sites that expouse freedom do honor the Confederacy.
Comment by david7134 — January 17, 2012 @ 11:57 am
@40 and 41
Totally agree. And papers like the Times that decide to use one persons remark at the Lexington Flag protest, referring to the protest as a “klan rally” as a secondary headline really makes you wonder why the Times is pushing that point of view. Does racism sell papers? I mean there were thousands of people there, why is THIS guys remark a major story?
Comment by Jack Mcguire — January 17, 2012 @ 5:10 pm