Giles County School Board sued over Ten Commandments
You knew this was coming, but now it’s here.
The American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia filed the lawsuit Tuesday against the Giles County School Board for posting the Ten Commandments, contending that the display violates the Constitution’s guarantee of separation of church and state.
We have more on this story here and we suspect you may have more to say, as well.
If not, we’ll throw out a few questions to think about, just in case:
* Will this case have any impact on the state Senate race between John Edwards and Dave Nutter, which includes Giles County?
* Will this case become an issue anywhere else? Will we see some school board candidates campaigning to post the Ten Commandments in their locality’s schools?
* Should voters in other localities be asking school board candidates whether they’d be in favor or — or opposed to — posting the Ten Commandments?
Here’s the full ACLU release, which we’ve just received:
The ACLU of Virginia today filed suit against the Giles County School Board for posting the Ten Commandments on the wall at Narrows High School in Narrows, Virginia. The lawsuit contends that the display violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
The Ten Commandments is posted on a main hallway at the high school, near the trophy case and on the way to the cafeteria, where it can be seen by students every day. It is surrounded by historical documents relating to American history, such as the Declaration of Independence, the Star-Spangled Banner, and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom.
The lawsuit was filed today on behalf of a Narrows High School student, suing under the name Doe 1, and the student’s parent, suing under the name Doe 2. The plaintiffs do not want to use their real name because they fear retaliation from community members who have displayed scorn and anger toward those who have complained about the Ten Commandments display.
The complaint explains that the Ten Commandments display makes Doe 1 feel like an outsider in his own school, because the school is endorsing religious beliefs to which he does not subscribe. Doe 1′s parent, Doe 2, objects to the display because it usurps the parent’s right to control the religious education of Doe 1.
“The Ten Commandments were clearly placed in Giles County public schools to promote religion, and that violates the First Amendment of the Constitution,” said ACLU of Virginia Executive Director Kent Willis. “School board members cannot camouflage their religious purpose by hiding the Ten Commandments among other documents.”
For years, Giles County schools posted a framed copy of the Ten Commandments along with the U.S. Constitution, but after complaints from the Freedom From Religion Foundation last fall, the school superintendent ordered them taken down. The school board, however, in a meeting attended by 200 residents urging restoration of the display, voted to overturn the superintendent’s decision. Only after the ACLU and the Freedom From Religion Foundation threatened litigation did the school board reverse itself and order the Ten Commandments taken down again. Then, in June, the school board authorized the posting of the Ten Commandments with historical documents. However, Narrows High School is the only school so far to post the display.
“Schools best respect religious freedom when they allow students to express their religious beliefs, but refrain from expressing religious opinions of their own,” said Willis. “That is not what has happened here.”
The plaintiffs are represented by Rebecca K. Glenberg and Thomas Okuda Fitzpatrick of the ACLU of Virginia, Patrick Elliott of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and Frank Feibelman, cooperating attorney for the ACLU of Virginia. The complaint can be found at http://acluva.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/20110913GilesCo10CsDoecomplaint.pdf.
September 13, 2011 - 12:58 PM
Wow…who could have seen this one coming. Oh, that’s right…pretty much everyone. I guess Giles has decided it’s rich enough to throw away its money on this absolutely fruitless position.
If the school is allowed to keep posting the 10 commandments in this way,it will be a case with huge effect on others schools, school and sectarian prayer everywhere. If the School Board loses, and I think they will,status quo will remain.
The ACLU is a communist organization and needs to be investigated by the Justice Dept – oh, that’s right, Eric Holder and Obama do not think these organizations, such as the Black Panthers, ACORN, ACLU, etc are doing anything wrong. Maybe “DOE 1″ and “DOE 2 ” need to move to Iran where their beliefs would be mainstream. I am sure they would be welcomed with open arms. Bravo to the Giles County School Board for standing up for one of the principles this great country was founded on. It is sheep like (won’t mention her name) that apparently have turned their backs on this country.
“The complaint explains that the Ten Commandments display makes Doe 1 feel like an outsider in his own school, because the school is endorsing religious beliefs to which he does not subscribe.”
And if you don’t subscribe to the Constitution, can you have that taken down as well? What about that Harry Potter poster in the library? If a child doesn’t subscribe to that belief, should it be taken down? Oops, political bumper sticker in the Government classroom?
Why do you say this is a “fruitless position Kristen?” If the ACLU is really basing their case on a “guarantee of the separation of church and state” they should have already lost. There is no such guarantee in either of our Constitutions.
Trevor, they’re going to lose, and spend a whole lot of money doing it. I don’t pay taxes there though, so it’s more of an issue for those that do.
“The ACLU is a communist organization”
What absolute garbage.
We are born into a certain history and justice system in this country, equally applicable to all. We are not all born into the same mythology, and none should be given primacy in government buildings, including public schools.
I don’t understand how 1 student & 1 Parent can decide rules for everyone, I thought this was a free country. Usually the majority rules. If the sudent doesn’t want to look at the Ten Commandments then they should just not look at them. I am offended by some language, can I sue and make people stop using language that offends me, I don’t think so. I agree they are historical documents from before this child was born.
Once again I post these horific statistics and profer that this is the result of a nation founded on Godly principals gone astray. These are un deniable FACTS!Look at the history of school shootings in the US after the SCOTUS, by fiat, effectively outlawed public acknowledgement of God in schools through prayer. I could not find any evidence of school shootings prior to 1962. Coincidence? I think not.
From Wikipedia- “Those rulings were two landmark Supreme Court decisions, Engel v. Vitale [1962] and Abington School District v. Schempp [1963] (which included the well publicised case of Murray v. Curlett), establishing the current prohibition on state-sponsored prayer in schools. Following these two cases came the Court’s decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman [1971]. This ruling established the so-called “Lemon test” which states that in order to be constitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment any practice sponsored within state run schools (or other public, state sponsored activities) must:
1.Have a secular purpose;
2.Must neither advance nor inhibit religion; and
3.Must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion.
HERE ARE THE RESULTS !! You cannot deny the evidence! it should make us all cry.
Name Location Date Year Number of Victims
University of Texas Massacre Austin, Texas, August 1 1966 16
SC State killings1 Orangeburg, South Carolina, February 8 1968 3
Kent State shootings1 Kent, Ohio, United States May 4 1970 4
Jackson State shootings1 Jackson, Mississippi, May 14–15 1970 2
Olean High School shooting1 Olean, New York, December 30 1974 3
California State University, Fullerton, California, July 12 1976 7
Cleveland Elementary School San Diego, California, January 29 1979 2
Deer Creek Middle School shooting Littleton, Colorado, April 7 1982 1
Parkway South Middle School , Missouri, United States January 20 1983 2
Goddard Middle School shooting Goddard, Kansas, January 21 1985 1
Portland Junior High School Portland, Connecticut, December 10 1985 1
Pine Forest High School Fayetteville, North Carolina, May 6 1986 0
Pinellas Park High School Largo, Florida, February 11 1988 1
Hubbard Woods School Winnetka, Illinois, May 20 1988 1
Atlantic Shores School Chesapeake, Virginia, December 16 1988 1
Cleveland School Stockton, California, January 17 1989 6
University of Iowa Iowa City, Iowa, November 1 1991 6
Lindhurst High School Olivehurst, California, May 1 1992 4
Palo Duro High School Amarillo, Texas, September 11 1992 0
Berkner High School Richardson, Texas, November 6 1992 1
Edward Tilden High School Chicago, Illinois, November 20 1992 1
Simon’s Rock College Great Barrington, Massachusetts, December 14 1992 2
East Carter High School Grayson, Kentucky, January 18 1993 2
Fairfax High School Los Angeles, California, January 21 1993 1
Amityville High School Amityville, New York, February 1 1993 1
Reseda High School Reseda, California, February 22 1993 1
Wauwatosa West High School Wauwatosa, Wisconsin, December 1 1993 1
Central Middle SchoolSheridan, Wyoming, September 17 1993 1
Margaret Leary Elementary School Butte, Montana, April 12 1994 1
Grimsley High School Greensboro, North Carolina, October 12 1994 1
Wickliffe Middle School Wickliffe, Ohio, November 7 1994 1
Blackville-Hilda High SchoolBlackville, South Carolina, October 12 1995 2
Richland High School Lynnville, Tennessee, November 15 1995 2
Frontier Middle School Moses Lake, Washington, February 2 1996 3
Hamilton High School Scottdale, Georgia, February 2 1996 1
San Diego State University San Diego, California, August 15 1996 3
Hetzel Union Building State College, Pennsylvania, September 17 1996 1
Bethel Regional High School Bethel, Alaska, February 19 1997 2
Pearl High School Pearl, Mississippi, ctober 1 1997 2
Heath High School Paducah, Kentucky, United States December 1 1997 3
Westside Middle School Jonesboro, Arkansas, March 24 1998 5
Parker Middle School dance Edinboro, Pennsylvania, April 24 1998 1
Thurston High School Springfield, Oregon, May 20 1998 2
Columbine High School ittleton, Colorado, April 20 1999 13
Heritage High School Georgia, May 20 1999 0
Fort Gibson Middle School Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, December 6 1999 0
Buell Elementary School Mount Morris , Michigan, February 29 2000 1
Lake Worth Middle School Lake Worth, Florida, May 26 2000 1
University of Arkansas Fayetteville, Arkansas, August 28 2000 2
Santana High School Santee, California, United States March 5 2001 2
Granite Hills High School El Cajon, California, March 22 2001 0
Martin Luther King, Jr. High SchoolManhattan, New York, January 15 2002 0
Appalachian School of Law shooting Grundy, Virginia, January 16 2002 3
John McDonogh High School New Orleans, Louisiana, April 14 2003 1
Red Lion Area Junior High School Red Lion, Pennsylvania, April 24 2003 2
Case Western Reserve UniversityCleveland, Ohio, May 9 2003 1
Rocori High School Cold Spring, Minnesota, September 24 2003 2
Columbia High School East Greenbush, New York, February 9 2004 0
Fairleigh Dickinson University Florham Park, New Jersey, April 4 2004 2
Randallstown High School Randallstown, Maryland, May 7 2004 0
Red Lake Senior High School Red Lake, Minnesota, March 21 2005 8
Campbell County High School Jacksboro, Tennessee, November 8 2005 1
Pine Middle School Reno, Nevada, March 14 2006 0
Essex Elementary School Essex, Vermont, August 24 2006 2
Orange High School Hillsborough, North Carolina, August 30 2006 1
Platte Canyon High School Bailey, Colorado, September 27 2006 2
Weston High School Cazenovia, Wisconsin, September 29 2006 1
Amish school Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, October 2 2006 6
Henry Foss High School Tacoma, Washington, January 3 2007 1
Herbert Henry Dow High School Midland, Michigan, March 8 2007 1
University of North Carolina Greensboro, North Carolina, March 24 2007 0
University of Washington Seattle, Washington, April 2 2007 2
Virginia Tech massacre Blacksburg, Virginia, April 16 2007 32
Delaware State University Dover, Delaware, September 21 2007 1
SuccessTech Academy Cleveland, Ohio, October 10 2007 1
Louisiana Technical College Baton Rouge, Louisiana, February 8 2008 3
Mitchell High School Memphis, Tennessee, February 11 2008 0
E.O. Green School Oxnard, California, February 12 2008 1
Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Illinois, February 14 2008 6
Davidson High School Mobile, Alabama, March 9 2008 1
Central High School Knoxville, Tennessee, August 21 2008 1
Henry Ford High School Detroit, Michigan, October 16 2008 1
2008 University of Central Arkansas Conway, Arkansas, October 27 2008 2
Dillard High School Fort Lauderdale, Florida, November 12 2008 1
Henry Ford Community College Dearborn, Michigan, April 10 2009 2
Hampton University Hampton, Virginia, United States April 26 2009 0
Covina High School Covina, California, April 30 2009 0[14]
Wesleyan University1 Middletown, Connecticut, May 1 2009 1
Canandaigua Academy Canandaigua, New York, May 5 2009 1
Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts, May 18 2009 1[15]
Larose-Cut Off Middle School shooting Larose, Louisiana, May 18 2009 1
Skyline College San Bruno, California, September 2 2009 0
Atlanta University Center Atlanta, Georgia, September 3 2009 1[16]
Deer Valley High School Antioch, California, September 16 2009 0
Northern VirginiaCommunityCollege Woodbridge, Virginia, December 8 2009 0
Discovery Middle School Madison, Alabama, February 5 2010 1 [17]
University of Alabama Huntsville, Alabama, February 12 2010 3 [18]
Deer CreekMiddleSchool Jefferson County, Colorado, February 23 2010 0[19]
Birney Elementary School Tacoma, Washington, February 26 2010 1[20]
Ohio State University Columbus, Ohio, March 9 2010 2[21]
Belleville Township HS East Belleville, Illinois, August 17 2010 1[22]
University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas, September 28 2010 1[23]
Alisal High School Salinas, California, October 1 2010 1[24][25]
Mid-AtlanticUniversity ElizabethCity,North Carolina, October 3 2010 1[26]
Kelly Elementary School Carlsbad, California, October 8 2010 0[27][28]
Marinette High School Marinette, Wisconsin, November 29 2010 1[29]
MillardSouthHigh SchoolOmaha, Nebraska,United States January 5 2011 2[30]
Martinsville West Middle School Martinsville,Indiana, March 25 2011 0[31]
Worthing High School Houston, Texas, March 30 2011 1[32]
Ross Elementary School Houston, Texas,April 19 2011 0[33]
Pearl City Middle School Pearl City, Hawaii, May 23 2011 1[34]
That “communist ” organization, the ACLU defends the rights of individual students to post the 10 commandments ontheir lockers, defends their rights to gather at school or anywhere else to express their individual
or collective beliefs, so long as those beliefs are not officially sanctioned or promoted by the local government (i.e. the school board)
or any government. If that is communism, then consider me a communist.
No organization does more to protect individual rights against the tyranny of the majority than the ACLU. I’m thankful that we have them.
Good point will, I guess after President Kennedy was assassinated this nation went to hell, literally and figuratively.
“The lawsuit contends that the display violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.” It does and the county will lose. Funny how the very people so adamant about their own rights feel free to condemn others for pursuing theirs. Typical. “Teach your children well”, Giles County has failed already.
will, I’d say your stats point to the failure of our gun-worshipping culture.
Joyce, the Constitution has already decided. Not 1 parent or 1 child.
BTW will, “The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, four other adults and the bomber himself; at least 58 people were injured. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–12 years of age) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, aged 55, who was ostensibly upset by a property tax levied to fund the construction of the school building.”
Many of us have forgotten the wisdom of the Founding
Fathers who believed the only way to truly give meaning to the rights, liberties, and freedoms of the members of the Majority is to protect the rights, liberties, and freedoms of others, including even the minorities with whom we disagree and maybe even people we don’t like. How well our society treats the rights of other people with whom we think we have nothing in common determines our future as a society.
While I consider myself Christian, I believe that the school system in Giles has more important issues facing it.
My take on the whole thing is this. Since the taxpayers who fund government are from many different religions or no religion, then no one particular religion should be represented in government buildings by government or arms of same.
In other words schools which are owned by govt. shouldn’t espouse or appear to espouse any particular religion.
3.”The ACLU is a communist organization”
I don’t know about that, but as a former ACLU member myself I can tell you that most of their causes benefit the left. Not all but most.
I don’t think forcing a school to take down a document is a good example of freedoms or liberties. It sounds like suppression of speech due to content to me.
Maybe the ACLU just doesn’t like Jews and Muslims who recognize the 10 Commandments as an important historic document. That’s why they ban their historic documents but allow the historic documents of other groups. Maybe the ACLU should register as a Hate group.
As a Christian, it’s not my place to say that an historic document should be forcibly removed from a school because some nameless, faceless entity doesn’t subscribe to it. Next the ACLU be banning Catcher in the Rye and Huck Finn because someone might be offended.
Yes, the ACLU would not be caught defending any Christians:
“ACLU of Colorado Supports Students Wearing Christian Symbols in the Colorado Springs School District
ACLU-NJ Defends Christian Student’s Anti-Abortion Speech
ACLU of Tennessee Defends Christian Students’ Right to Preach in Public Park
ACLU of Virginia Defends Christian Students’ Right to Protest Against ACLU at Public School
ACLU Defends Christian Students Wearing Anti-Islam Shirts to Florida Public School
ACLU Fights For Christian Inmate’s Right to Preach
ACLU of Northern California Fights Law that Got Quakers Fired Over Loyalty Oath
ACLU Defends Christian Librarian Disciplined for Refusing to Promote Harry Potter
ACLU Defends Right of Individual Christian to Display Nativity Scene on Public Property
ACLU Defends Christians Protesting Gay Rights in Florida
ACLU Champions Religious Freedom Of Mormon College Student
ACLU Fights for Christian Church’s Mission to Feed the Poor
ACLU Fights for Christmas Tree
ACLU Files Suit to Protect Free Speech Rights of Christian Protesting Wal-Mart’s Policy on Gays
ACLU of Georgia and Baptist Church File Religious Discrimination Lawsuit”
I think you get the drift!
http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/
Excellent point John Johnson, and it is hard, darned hard sometimes.
The only issue here is the malfeasance perpetrated by the school board. They are clearly violating their fiduciary duty to protect the assets of the school district and ensure their limited resources are used effectively for student education. Regardless of what sky god you worship, it’s obvious this is not going to go well in court for Giles county. While they have the help of Liberty U’s lawyers, I doubt those guys are going to pony up to pay for plaintiffs legal fees when Giles loses in court. Giles county is picking a fight they will lose and all the ignorant flatulence displayed by some of the posters here will not change that.
See here for what could happen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District
“On February 21, 2006, the newly elected Dover Area School Board voted, unanimously with one abstention, to pay $1,000,011 in legal fees and damages due to the parents and their lawyers as a result of the verdict in the case, a large sum of money for a small district. The previous school board had been offered the opportunity to rescind its policy, and avoid paying legal fees, immediately after the lawsuit was filed in 2004, but it declined. The parents’ attorneys Pepper Hamilton stated that court records would show that they were entitled to more than $2 million, but were going to accept less than half that amount in recognition of the small size of the school district, and because the school board that voted for the policy had been voted out of office, leaving the new school board “having the bill placed in their laps.” The previous school board had been defended without charge by the Thomas More Law Center.[44] Richard Katskee, assistant legal director for Americans United, said of the trial’s cost, “Any board thinking of trying to do what the Dover board did is going to have to look for a bill in excess of $2 million,” and “I think $2 million is a lot to explain to taxpayers for a lawsuit that should never be fought.”"
“Hold on, let’s back up,” School Board Chairman J.B. Buckland said today when asked about the Ten Commandments lawsuit. “We don’t have no Ten Commandments. We have historical documents up.”
Wow! My English teacher is rolling over in her grave!
Maybe Chairman Double Negative should visit an English class.
“I don’t know about that, but as a former ACLU member myself I can tell you that most of their causes benefit the left.”
Maybe the left just finds itself on the right side of the Constitution more often.
There’s nothing “historical” about the 10 Cs, and this issue has nothing to do with being a “Christian” or not. They’re not going to win. The money would be better spent getting their school board some remedial English tutoring.
Hey Will what a weak copy/paste job. I have to ask, why does your “all loving”, “God” allow those senseless acts of violence to occur anyway?
Kristen, great points.
I don’t send my kids to church to learn Algebra.
The taxpayers of Giles will enjoy paying for this losing case for their town.
“Maybe the left just finds itself on the right side of the Constitution more often”
Or maybe the ACLU is partisan.
Dear Giles County,
You are going to lose this case and all the money spent on it. Read the Constitution, stupid. It is really pretty clear that no arm of the government may show preference for any religion. None. If you like the way religion runs countries, perhaps you should try Iran on for size.
Sincerely, try to understand some basic civics here,
Saint
The ACLU doesn’t do anything that doesn’t require going to court and mounting a case in our adversarial legal atmosphere. They win a lot, because they’re on the side of the constitution.
They’re considerably less biased than the NRA. But then, no one expects the NRA to come riding in and defend Giles’s right to hang the 10 cs in a public school building.
“It is really pretty clear that no arm of the government may show preference for any religion. ”
If it is so clear, post what it says.
Didn’t think so.
Whose 10 Commandments did they put up on the wall? They are printed twice in the Bible and are not identical to one another. Even various Christian sects cannot agree on them, not to mention Jewish interpretations. There are are really only seven commandments anyway, as the first four are redundant commands from the creator of the universe, who demands in various forms to be respected so repetitively as to suggest that he is insecure. The others are more or less common sense, certainly not original, and far from comprehensive. Although they were an illiterate, highly superstitious bunch, I don’t think the tribes of Israel were actually doing all this forbidden stuff before Moses came down from the mount anyway. One interesting factoid, however…at $1700 an ounce, I bet that golden calf would have turned Glenn Beck’s head LOL.
I grew up in Giles County & attended Narrows High School. There are many things in this country we may agree or disagree with. This is a free country! You’re free to not look at this display if it truly displeases you!
I think it is a appropriate to consider what the first Amendment actually says! This is what it says EXACTLY:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Now, if the Supreme Court comes out and says that a local school board, which is duly voted into office by the people of the community, cannot post what they feel is appropriate for their community and bans the Ten Commandments along with prayer, would this not amount to making a law that prohibits both free speech and “free exercise” of religion? I think so. If people in a community do not like what the school board does, they have a course for redress. They can vote in a new school board which can then remove any display that the community feels is offensive to its citizens.
Tom, read the lawsuit. The 14th Amendment is generally interpreted to extend the First Amendment to state and local government.
Non-Christian individuals in Giles County do *not* have a course for redress. On their own, all they have are the options of (a) invisibility and (b) ostracization, since most people are unable to simply pick up and move. Do you honestly think the community would embrace anyone like Doe 1 and Doe 2 who openly criticized the display and requested that it be taken down? It is the government’s responsibility to protect the underprivileged — to deny special treatment for any group, including Christians.
I am proud to be a citizen first and foremost of the United States of America…a country founded on the freedoms of speech, and religion…a country founded to be a participant of local government coming first to which large government cannot interfere…Secondly I am proud to be a citizen of Giles County. We have the most magnificent vistas reminding us daily of a creator and various persons to whom no greater love is found. I am disheartened however by the displays of hate toward my county this past few months and others lack of understanding. I am disheartened at how one can falsely accuse and attack another and suddenly that is the truth without the whole truth being heard. Therefore, I am going to inform the minority of something…The establishment of the documents in question at NHS was placed in reverence of our founding fathers for the love that they had in making this nation so grand. Secondly…there is no such thing in the constitution about separation of church and state…this questionable allegory is a quote in a letter to a private church from Thomas Jefferson assuring the persons in a free church that they would be free to worship God as they so wished and encouraged them to do so. What he is promising here is freedom to exercise without placing limitations on worship within the confines of the law (i.e: no murder). It was local people who wanted these historical documents up and local government who so chose to keep them up under the law. Next…To those of you uninformed persons…Giles County will not have to pay anything as others have showed mass support in this cause of freedom…Finally…How dare such organizations try to destroy the fabric of America by questioning a local government decision by throwing it to a higher government issue. I think that a bit juvenile esp. coming from a complaint over 1000 miles away eso, when our own children did not notice signs until last year when made public. This shows it was never forced upon the children to read such documents and is thus not in violation with any law. I do hope that God blesses America and God opens her gates so we can be lights standing on a hill again for all to see.
@Tom, the Supreme Court has already come out and said that very thing. That’s why this was such a foolhardy action by the Giles County school board: they will lose in court AND have to pay the plaintiff’s attorneys’ fees. The 14th Amendment extended the 1st Amendment to all government entities, including local school boards.
As to another of your questions, government entities do not enjoy the same free speech rights as private citizens where religion is concerned. They are constrained by the prohibition against favoring one religion over another, such as posting the ten commandments but not edicts from other religions.
The individual protections in the Bill of Rights are not subject to majority vote, so your suggestion that an aggrieved party should have to hope for a sympathetic school board to be elected is misplaced. Think about this issue in terms of civil rights laws. Desegregration might never have happened in the south if it were up to local elected officials to enact.
This case does not represent the grave threat to Christianity that some seem to fear. It does nothing to impede individual students’ rights to enjoy free expression of their religious beliefs to the full extent that school policy allows free speech already. The separation of church and state–as codified in those first two clauses you quoted–is one of the ingenius protections of our secular government, designed to secure the legitimate function of our government of, by and for all citizens throughout the millennia, while ensuring that citizens may freely exercise their individual beliefs or non-beliefs.
This is my view point on the whole thing. When prayer and the Ten Commandments was taken out of the schools, kids started to go unruly. The separation of church and state has taken away the very foundation of morals in school. Our Founding Fathers were very religious, and always prayed to God before they made any decision about this country as they wanted God to be a part of molding and making America which they knew would make it strong as promised in the Bible/God’s word. The principles/commandments God wrote down in His word for us to follow was designed so we could be able to live with each other in harmony. Being He created us He should know how to keep us in line with 10 very simple rules that causes no harm to anyone if practiced. That is what kids today need to live their life by. Just think if the commandments and prayer was put back in schools kids would have a moral foundation to go by that can help them live and adapt to the world when they are out there in it. Also if you look back in history you will see since prayer and the Ten Commandments was taken out of the schools kids have grown very hostile and taking their aggressions on others by bringing guns to school and killing their classmates and teachers. Before the Ten Commandments and Prayer was taken out of the schools you will notice there wasn’t school violence as there is now. So let this school put the Ten Commandments back up at least they are trying to teach their kids they should live by morals and not by motives. I applaud their efforts and may God Bless them for it!!
Good point Tom.
And dave – Based on your posts, I have always considered you a communist.
Kristen – read this and weep – courtesy of the World Net Daily quote:
The ACLU’s shocking legacy
One of the great myths of the 20th – and now 21st – century is the belief that the American Civil Liberties Union was an organization that had a noble beginning, but somehow strayed off course.
That myth is untrue. The ACLU set a course to destroy America – her freedom and her values – right from the start.
From its very beginning, the ACLU had strong socialist and communist ties. As early as 1931, the U.S. Congress was alarmed by the ACLU’s devotion to communism. A report by the Special House Committee to Investigate Communist Activities stated
The American Civil Liberties Union is closely affiliated with the communist movement in the United States, and fully 90 percent of its efforts are on behalf of communists who have come into conflict with the law. It claims to stand for free speech, free press and free assembly, but it is quite apparent that the main function of the ACLU is an attempt to protect the communists.
Roger Baldwin and Crystal Eastman founded the ACLU in 1920 along with three other organizations dedicated to the most leftist of causes. The histories of these two individuals belie their claims of patriotism and respect for the Constitution.
Baldwin openly sought the utter destruction of American society. Fifteen years after the founding of the ACLU, Baldwin wrote:
I am for Socialism, disarmament and ultimately, for the abolishing of the State itself … I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal.
Earl Browder, the general secretary of the Communist Party of the United States, admitted that the ACLU served as a “transmission belt” for the party. Baldwin agreed, claiming, “I don’t regret being a part of the communist tactic which increased the effectiveness of a good cause.”
Baldwin was a devoted follower of the anarchist Emma Goldman (or “Red Emma” as she was called), who was eventually deported to the Soviet Union in 1919 for her communist activities. Goldman was a consistent promoter of anarchism, radical education, “free love” and birth control. According to an online exhibit of Goldman’s papers, her career “served as inspiration for Roger Baldwin, a future founder of the American Civil Liberties Union.”
Eastman was a zealous feminist, an anti-war activist, and a great admirer of the Soviet revolution. Of her many leftist friends and associates, Eastman held the highest regard for Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger. According to Eastman, “We [feminists] must all be followers of Margaret Sanger.”
Of course, Sanger was a passionate advocate of eugenics – the attempt to improve the human race through selective breeding. Abortion was a primary means to this “improvement,” leading Sanger to write, “The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it.”
Baldwin also was a great admirer of the Planned Parenthood founder. He heaped praise on Sanger: “She was a frail, beautiful, unassuming woman … She always had a quiet insistence on the rightness of what she was doing.”
This adoration of Sanger set the tone for the tragic history of the ACLU concerning the issue of abortion. To this day, the group fights for the most extreme of pro-abortion positions, including support for partial-birth abortion and opposition to parental consent for minors.
But the radical agenda hardly ends there. In his wedding vows, Baldwin called marriage as between one man and one woman “a grim mockery of essential freedom.” He added, “The highest relationship between a man and a woman is that which welcomes and understands each other’s loves.”
The result is that today the ACLU is a leading advocate of same-sex “marriage,” and has expressed support for polygamy and polyamory (“open” marriage) as well. The ACLU Policy Guide reads:
The ACLU believes that criminal and civil laws prohibiting or penalizing the practice of plural marriage [polygamy or polyamory] violate constitutional protections of freedom of expression and association, freedom of religion, and privacy for personal relationships among consenting adults.
While many accept the ACLU as a mainstream organization, their history tells a drastically different story. Organizations such as the Alliance Defense Fund are dedicated to exposing the myth that the ACLU is working hard for the First Amendment rights of Americans. Instead of being an organization that simply took a “wrong turn,” the ACLU has devoted itself from the very beginning to the devastation of America’s most cherished traditions, values, and laws.
“22.Hey Will what a weak copy/paste job. I have to ask, why does your “all loving”, “God” allow those senseless acts of violence to occur anyway?”
Xela – Here is your answer. Be sure to read to the end.
1) THE PROBLEM
–Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
2) THE SOLUTION
—Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
3) THE METHOD
2 Chronicles 7:14 “if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land”.
Kristen – so there were no guns before 1962?
Sandi – does it really matter what method was used? I believe one of the Va Tech mureders was done with a knife.
Great point Jayne – How many Amish kids do you see in the news using drugs and running with gangs, drinking etc? None!
DD…World Nut Daily? Think not.
“From its very beginning, the ACLU had strong socialist and communist ties. ”
So what if they did? It’s not illegal here to be a socialist or communist.
“When prayer and the Ten Commandments was taken out of the schools, kids started to go unruly. The separation of church and state has taken away the very foundation of morals in school. ”
Call me crazy….I assumed raising kids to behave was the parents’ job. Not the job of a piece of paper on the wall. And what precisely about “Thou shalt not commit adultery” makes a kid sit quietly in school anyway?
Giles is going to lose and be on the hook for the legal fee nut. If that’s how their people want to spend their tax dollars, great.
Local governments are not private fiefdoms, and even if 100% of the local population wants something they aren’t allowed to engage in behavior outside of the constitution. What if the worthy Giles County school board decided to resegregate their schools….would that be ok too if it were supported by the locals? Obviously not.
Kristen – you would not acknowledge the truth if it slapped you in the face. You Liberals are convinced you are always right, even when the facts are laid out in front of you. That’s why you Libs got your butts kicked in yesterday’s NY election to replace WEENER by the Republicans – an obvious indictment on Obama’s failed policies. We are going to take this country back from you socialist Libs and get it back on track and back to work. And I predict it will be a long, long time before the Libs ever see the White House again.
Granted, we seldom see the truth from conservative regulars here but we can all recognize propaganda when we see it just the same. Since there is no liberal in the White House now, that remains as safe a bet as mine that no conservative of your caliber will EVER see the White House.
You folks are putting your eggs in the wrong basket. This is not about a local school being “allowed” to do as they please in pursuit of their religious freedom (as if there were such a thing), this is about a GOVERNMENT school “establishing” a religion by showing clear and obvious preference for one religion and one religion alone. Unless the teachers and administrators are actually proselyting in the halls and classrooms a clearer case cannot be made for “respecting an establishment of religion” and they will rightly lose.
It is not the ACLU’s fault, it is not Liberal’s fault, it is not the unGodly’s fault, it is purely and completely Giles County’s fault.
“When prayer and the Ten Commandments was taken out of the schools, kids started to go unruly”
Oh brother, kids have been unruly since the beginning of time. Didn’t Caine kill Able? And the answer is simple. If you want your children raised in a certain religion, send them to a private school. Religion should be in the parents hands, not governments.
DD….the ACLU is going to beat Giles County like a redheaded stepchild, and Giles will get to pay for the privilege. And this has nothing to do with Weiner, or the White House. Do try and stay on topic.
” Since there is no liberal in the White House now,…”
True dat.
It seems the worship of the goddess liberty continues by the ACLU.
How long till the ACLU has the Declaration of Independence removed?
How about posting that document with the words Creator, and Providence, enlarged, and see how long it takes for them to start squealing, or maybe just have a little Websters definition box next to all the words that school children typically don’t know the definition of today.
Kristen, did You read the opinion of the court when they had the commandments removed?
If the Commandments are displayed, the children might read them, ponder them, and maybe obey them, and that would not be desirable in our opinion.
If we, as a country decide that we evolved from a meaningless reaction, and the Atheists are right, then we have to admit that the document that set forth our right to exist as a self governing nation was based on a lie, and therefore all “unalienable rights” become alienable.
The reason for the first amendment was to keep the Pope and “church/state”, in Rome, not the US. If You have any real interest in what the founders were thinking, read Foxes book of Martyrs, they all had.
Good idea Jack — so you are for school vouchers. Because after all, why should I pay taxes to support public schools when I have to pay tuition for a private school ?
Kristen – don’t wanna talk about the NY election huh? Didn’t think so LOL (talk about getting beat like a red headed stepchild!!!)
Good post Theophile.
The fact is religion is being taught in our schools everyday. It’s called secular humanism. Its doctrine is that evolved man is his own god. It denies the existance of a divine creator and therefore man becomes accountable only to himself. This leads to the situation God speaks about in the book of Romans.(see my previous post). You can argue “rights” all you want but factual evidence is hard to ignore. Romans 1 gives us an accurate description of a society that promotes man’s sovereignty over God’s.
I sincerely hope the NY election and the Nevada election are a harbinger of the Republicans having to come in and clean up their own messes after 2012! If McCain had not chosen Palin, I would have supported him doing that in 2008. You do not have what it takes, you never have and you never will and the sooner this nation comes to grips with that, the better IMO.
Obama is a Liberal like I am a Conservative!
“It seems the worship of the goddess liberty continues by the ACLU.”
And thank Jove for that. We should all be interested in liberty. And our pesky rights.
And Romans 13 gives you your answer on submitting to government authority and paying taxes will.
“so you are for school vouchers”
Actually I am for government getting out of education totally. If we did, we could probably give tax breaks toward education and let people decide where to send their kids. Also, public schools propogandize our children. When your educated in a govt. school you think like govt. wants you to, because that is what your taught. That is why so many people trust the govt. so much. It has been pounded into their heads by public schools for their entire youth.
First, I thought I’d take a stab at Dwayne’s questions…
1. Will this issue have any effect on the Edwards/Nutter race? I doubt it. Neither one of them wants to take a stand on a political hot potato. It might happen late in the race as a last resort.
2. Will this issue have any effect elsewhere? Doubtful, and for the same reason. We’re all scared to death of being targeted by entities such as the ACLU. It’s become prohibitively expensive to defend against them. As several people posted, this is going to cost Giles Co. a fortune, and they will almost certainly lose. Doesn’t mean it’s not worth fighting, but well, there you go.
3. Should we ask school board candidates about their stance? Sure, but only if you’re prepared to have the debate. I happen to think, the more we talk about it, the better.
Speaking of which… Last time we had this debate, I had posted the question, that if the Commandments could be posted and depicted in so many government buildings up to and including the Supreme Court building itself, where was the transgression in a simple display at a school?
My personal opinion on the upcoming Giles Co. suit is this; simply posting this document in a public place where it can either be viewed or ignored doesn’t necessarily breach the establishment clause. If students were made to sign some form saying they’d read the document, then in my mind, that would be clearly unconstitutional. Not even signing that they *agree* with it mind you, just signing that they’d *read* it. Such action would be promotion of a religion even if not forcing acceptance. I don’t see how ones eyes falling upon a display of the 10 Commandments can be construed or demonstrated as promotion or establishment of a religion.
On the other hand – and this is where I often run afoul of some folks – if we who are in favor of the display are to expect others to accept it is permissible to publicly display the 10 Commandments, it is also within reason to permit the posting of other religious texts in that same context. Tit-for-tat, simple as that.
That’s my abbreviated opinion.
I agree 100% Jack
46.”Kristen – don’t wanna talk about the NY election huh?”
Im sure she doesn’t. The Rep. candidate won in a 3-1 Democrat district that the Dems held since 1923! Believe me if the Dems had won a race under similar circumstances the blogs would be full of the info and the Libs would be crying “comeback” for Obama. Instead this is yet another victory in the Rep. march to retake the Senate and the White House.
BTW Obama disapproval at an all time low 55%.
I think Jack answered your question Edward. If the premise is that schools “indoctrinate” children, well there you are.
The “real” problem here is that “the establishment” is a different thing to different people. Since the courts are the arbiter, that is where the distinction will be made, but everyone will still (like every other issue) have their own opinion on that too. Certainly mention the words “Sharia Law” and everyone in the room knows what you are trying to “establish” but when it is their tenets…not so much. The Giles Co board messed up by not including any other religious text if true historical influence and documentation was their goal (it wasn’t IMO), when even the Founding Fathers could have consulted and certainly were aware of others. You cannot unring a bell.
Even the Lord said it was for us to decide not be forced or coerced on us. Ask Jack how indoctrination works.
Yes Sandi – you are right about Romans 13. However, if you truly study this passage it does not mean Christians are to obey regulations which are immoral or anti- Christian. This instruction was given so that these Roman Christians could stay alive in order to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ. The truth is that many of these Roman Christians would later choose to be fed to the lions and boiled in oil rather than bow to the government authorities which had set themselves up as god. (secular humanism)
Now that you pointed out the 13th chapter, do you believe what the rest of the book says? Including the part about the reasons the wrath of God is coming? (chapter 1)
DD and Jack, I glad to see you both admit you failed on this 10 Cs issue. Unless there’s some other reason you’d be in such a rush to change the subject.
I have an announcement…The Ten Commandments is not subject to only a Christian religion…Being in the first five books of the Bible…This is also subject to the Jewish community…as this is the Torah. As for other religion…It is not about one religion or another. The issue is about a free representation of the people established by the local government, freedom of speech, and freedom of the press. If you were to ask another if another document was posed we would also protect their freedoms. The question then is it was not nor was any historical document posted when asked in relationship to the establishment of this great and free nation. For those of you who continue to fight such a freedom…I am sadly disappointed…I believe that this is merely a tool to destroy and chip away at our great democracy and to have to chose a small locality to pick on is a disgrace to all of America. The whole county has 17000 people. The children and teens did not even know these documents existed until the organizations who are there for self purposes let it be known. What is wrong with a community supporting his or her children in a display of historical documents? I say none..I say the complaint is as cheesy as me coming up to you and saying that death metal should no longer be sold because the lyrics grossly offends me (and it does) yet I don’t for it is your freedom to write such harsh lyrics the same as it is your freedom to offend my county. I say good for you for having an opinion but leave the decisions to the local governments voting and representing the local people and no this is not the same thing as enslavement as stated…NOBODY is forced to read any part of the ten commandments they are merely posted as are other articles of literature in bookstores and libraries worldwide.
Let me try posting this again, since my CAPTCHA code wasnt right? ughs… I am 26 years old… all my life i thought that god in schools was the way… hate to say this because i know i will hear alot of greif about it but, god is still in our schools… any student who has been saved carrys god wherever he goes… no one knows why things happen sometimes… no one knows gods plan or will for them.. but with that i have recently changed my view, when i first heard of giles putting the commandements up i thought way to go!!! but now i think oh no… first off, when thomas jefferson wrote the letter to the president he was for the christians .. he wanted seperation with church and state so that no one could tell someone they could not preach or worship basiclly.. and after further reading, i agree… if this country had a government who pushed christianity than that also means that they could very well push muslim religion as well… which also means that they could prevent christians from expressing their love for Christ… (pardon my grammer errors im typing fast to get back to work haha)… so with that all being said, i say keep church and state seperate.. if the students and parrents want to express their freedom of religion have the students wear a shirt with the commandments on it.. but be aware that other religions have the right to do the same thing…. i am still learning everyday what god wants from me and i do not want to see the day when the government can tell me i cant express it, i want to be able to sing of his love forever!!
Well Kristen, since we already changed the subject, please enlighten us on your views of the NY election where you Libs got your butts kicked. Oh, that’s right it must be some type of mistake, because we all know the country is SO in LOVE with Obama’s policies – Can we kick Obama’s butt out of office in 2012? (all together now Jack) YES WE CAN!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Sandi- —Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given unto me. Therefore go and make dsciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age”.
Is going and making disciples considered indoctrination in your opinion?
He also said “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”. I am not sure Jesus would be pleased with the all religions are valid PC point of view. I appreciate the fact that you point out what the Lord wants us to do, but you have to examine His word as a whole and not pick and choose the parts that may or may not support your world view.
And BTW indoctrination IS happening into the religion of secular humanism
under the guise of political correctness. IMHO
So will, paying your taxes is now “immoral or anti- Christian”? I was answering your question from #45 and YOUR reference to Romans in #47. I do not just thump the Bible for effect and I dislike it when others do so. THAT was my point. I have already been assured by one of the “Christian” posters that I am not a Christian, sorry someone already beat you to that one.
DD, I admire you needing Jack to shore up your lame positions. And can Obama be beat next year? Maybe, but not with any of the candidates the GOP currently has.
http://gantdaily.com/2011/09/13/rick-perry-falls-against-obama-after-social-security-comments/
“The statement has allowed Obama to pull further ahead of Perry in the polls. Three weeks ago, Obama led Perry by only six points (49 percent to 43 percent). Now, Obama holds an 11 point lead over Perry (52 percent to 41 percent).”
The more people hear of Perry, the better Obama looks. Keep talking, Perry!
“In other match-ups, Obama would defeat former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and Rep. Michele Bachmann each by margins greater than his victory over Sen. John McCain in 2008.”
Awwwww….
“I am not sure Jesus would be pleased with the all religions are valid PC point of view.”
Sadly for Jesus, he too is subject to the Bill of Rights in this country. You do realize he was Jewish, right?
“Still, those in the White House who are hoping that Perry is their opponent next fall should take a second look. As scary as he may seem to many, Perry could offer the tough, decisive leadership that a lot of people want in tough times”
David ” rodham” Gergen
“Sadly for Jesus, he too is subject to the Bill of Rights in this country”
Your ignorance is exceeded only by your blasphemy.
As a Christian I believe that the Bible shows that during this period of time God has a clear separation between civil and religious authorities. The King is not to perform the duties of a Priest and the Priest is not in charge of the civil duties that are delegated to the King. This is to continue until the Lord Jesus returns.
That having been said, the Bible does not teach that a King, or President, or whatever, is to make their decisions based upon what is right in their own eyes. They are to make decisions based upon what the God of the Bible has said is right or wrong.
The Priest doesn’t tell the King what to do and the King doesn’t tell the Priest what to do. Instead they both live their lives before God and do what He has said to do in their own offices.
Kristen…We are aware of Jesus and his being….I am glad there is common ground And even he got mad in the temple…He was not afraid of backing down for the good of all of man kind even innocent. For PC….purposes…I fear that if Giles loses it will set a new tone and new direction for the world. I am asking all wh are against to open your hearts to this idea and the idea that this could potentially violate all of our freedoms down the line…this is our stance…even if you do not agree. And yes if little Giles has to go before the supreme court we will justifiably and will win again for the benefit of the American people with benevolent hearts and yes even with a grander constitution protecting our understanding of the Bill of Rights. And to Edward…well stated…
Oh spare me Jack…if you honestly think you exert any moral influence over me, you’re delusional.
Rachael, in this country all elected officials makes decisions based on codified law and our Constitution.
Ashley, students in Giles – and everywhere – are free to hang copies of the 10 Cs in their lockers if they are really interested. Or not. Is that not sufficient?
For now, we don’t live in a theocracy. For now.
69.”Oh spare me Jack”
I can’t spare ya. You will have to ask that “subject to the Bill of Rights” guy you were talking about.
I joined the ACLU after I found out they defended Ollie North and Rush Limbaugh.
Interesting that World Net Daily (WND) condemns them (post 35) based on comments from the Special House Committee to Investigate Communist Activities from the Joe McCarthy era. If WND can’t do better than that, I did the right thing.
I have no problem with religious zealots spending my tax dollars to run schools and other things the way they want – provided they are the same kind of zealot I am.
Unfortunately, not everyone is the same kind of zealot, and the Constitution was designed to prevent use of government to promote religion – at the request of the Danbury Baptists.
As to free speech issues, the school board does not have the right to use their position to promote their personal free speech, either.
Kristen – yes, Jesus was a Jew – so why is your exalted leader Lord Obama turning his back on Israel, and siding with his Muslim brothers? Does that not bother you at all? Since you support Obama I assume then you support his views on Israel? Still waiting on that opinion of the NY election – and you can throw in Nevada too while you’re at it. And as for your “poll” either side can quote their own polls and get the results they want. But you can’t dispute the voice of the people aka last night election results. Now, run along like a good little whupped Liberal. We’ll call ya if we need ya.
Praise be to the Giles County School Board for posting the Ten Commandments. God will now bless Giles County. But we can’t just simply post the ten commandments, NO!!!! we must obey the Ten Commandments!! So to help everyone obey the ten commandments I’d like to help with a few of them.
First Commandment – You shall have NO other Gods before me. So I don’t care what the U.S. Constitution says about “freedom of religion”. America is a Christian nation, so no other religions are allowed!!
Third Commandment: Don’t take God’s name in vain. For this I simply say, read Leviticus 24:16 – He who blasphemes the name of Yahveh
shall be put to death; all of the congregation shall stone him. We need to work on this one folks, it’s the law of the bible, but it is not the law of the land within this fine Christian nation that was founded on the Ten Commandments.
Fourth Commandment: Don’t work on Sunday. See Exodus 35:2 You shall kindle no fire. So how about a law making fires illegal on Sundays! Also Numbers 15:32-36: Moses, the very person who delivered the Ten Commandments! had a man stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath day. This is serious business folks. We can’t just blindly hang the Ten Commandments, we must obey them too!
Fifth Commandment: Honor your parents. See Deuteronomy 21:18 – If you don’t obey your parents, the city will stone him. This is the kind of morality that we need as a Christian nation.
I hope this shows how the Ten Commandments are a historical document that our nation was founded on.
“Kristen – yes, Jesus was a Jew – so why is your exalted leader Lord Obama turning his back on Israel, and siding with his Muslim brothers?”
Again, DD, the topic here is “Giles County School Board”. Look at the top of the thread if you don’t believe me. And make an effort to concentrate and stay on topic. Turn off the Sponge Bob perhaps.
Christian Soldier..for a second there I was taking you at face value. Nice!
“I hope this shows how the Ten Commandments are a historical document that our nation was founded on”
Look, the founders, Washington, Jefferson were diest…they owned slaves and for sure in Jeffersons case had sex with them……..In addition, diests believed that a power caused things to happen on earth. But they were not Christians per se.
In God We Trust is on our money. There is absolutely no reason it cannot be posted in schools.
Count me as one who believes that protecting religious minorities from having the government endorse any religious beliefs is important. How is an atheist kid supposed to feel in that in-your-face Christian school?
Soooo… does anyone else think the issue will have any effect on the 21st Dist. Senate race? Other races?
In order to keep what we love, we have to protect that which we hate. Founder of the ACLU.
It is amazing that children forget the Ten Commandment on their way to school. For those who think it is for the benefit of “Other” children, well that is where separation of church and state enter. The colonies grew as people left England to escape harassment and persecution from the state “Church of England”. The writers of the Constitution made clear that there was to be NO government sponsored or endorsement of a religion or denominationin the United States. Thomas Jefferson fought and helped stop the State of Virginia from making a denomination a State Church. The 10 Commandments are a religious teaching, not history. If you post the 10 Commandments you would have to post the core teachings of Islam, Budist Hindu, Native American and other forms of reigion. Religion is best taught at home with Church attendance to supp.
Church attendance to support the teaching.
Edward…no.
It will only effect the 21st District race or any other, if the candidates get drawn into comments that should not be made about the issue IMO Edward. It could happen but most pols know to leave this alone or tread very lightly.
No matter how devout a person may personally be, the point of being seen as forcing, endorsing and “establishing” any “one true religion” is just a bridge too far for intelligent, Constitution and Founding Father loving person. Like I said, the whole “Sharia Law” kerfuffle has actually helped to solidify the idea in many Christian minds that we do not want to establish a theocracy for many very good reasons.
I do not want the government involved in my religious practice on any level. No teacher should explain anything about religion to my children and no school should represent anything about my religion to my children. That is my job and mine alone.
Ummm Kristen if you read your own posts, you are the one pointing out that Jesus was a Jew not me. Lay off the Pina Coladas, alcohol is warping your mind. STILL waiting on those NY/Nevada election results comments LOL LOL LOL
@ Sandi – yeah, that’s pretty much what I thought too, even though you’re opposed to, and I’m in favor of, I doubt either Edwards or Nutter will want to pick a side in the Giles Co SB vs. ACLU *this* fall. Maybe, after being elected, but not as a campaign issue.
This might make for an interesting hypothetical… Suppose for a moment it does become an issue, and that the Giles Co. electorate was the swing vote to decide the election. (I know this doesn’t seem likely, but just play along) You’re Sen. Edwards, or Del. Nutter’s campaign manager; what do you advise your guy to do?
Kristen and others…
This is not a issue of religion at all and for once this is an issue I do not foresee a compromise on based on my strong constitution and belief in the power of freedom. At no point is the posting in direct violation of the constitution, however the removal thereof would be unconstitutional based on the purpose despite, some few misconstrued perceptions. What seems to be lost here is the other Historical Documents…the resason for the posting originally and still today. The question I have is are you too going to enforce the removal of the Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, and Constitution from the walls?
Another thing lost is the purpose of the term “separation of church and state” see my first post…a letter from Jefferson to a church ensuring their freedom to worship…And as stated there is no super imposed or forcable reading of the ten commandments by the school board or other staff for the students to read the ten as they are merely a display of historical documents. Thus no religion is forced.
The other problem is that the Ten Commandments were up without complaint for years and then removed. Had there been prior complaint before the posting, perhaps it would be a different ball game. However since there was no complaint prior they are then infringing on freedom of the press and freedom of speech. Thus as a result, the majority of the persons in the community desires the documents up and as such should be allowed by law. It does not hinder or violate anyones rights if it is offensive to a minority based on the purpose of posting historical documents to others, a complaint to oneself is acceptable but to infringe on a majority rule who is seeking a primary benevolent purpose to retain peace in a community and to honor those who have gone before is innately wrong. I think in a society we as a people have tiptoed along the lines of fear of living right long enough. As for austricism, I am from Giles, and have been laughed at for my Christian faith as well..I would say if I were to ask for the cessation of Rap Music or Death Metal I too would be laughed at however they are free to express themselves and I respect that despite my moral objection to particular lyrics. But as stated I am not going to feel out a vendetta to the ACLU based on my stance. These documents do not promote violence as some of the other documents do instead they promote peace and freedom.
I do fear that if we allow this to continue that we will not have even a democracy as God or other faiths are not being allowed anymore my dear Kristen but will be run by a socialist network or even worse or equal to a dictatorship where even my Hypocratic oath is null and void. Historically if you watch small cases like this unfold, freedoms are taken one by one and exalted to a huge scale globally.
So this leads to another question for me…As an American citizen is it not my constitutional right to know my accusers and if there is such an accuser how do they have the right to remain annonymous? I think we should know their history befor making a swift decision. And I think we have the right to know the names of the accusers so as to move forward and know if it is a legitimate complaint.
Ashley you need to take a breath you are blurring and misinterpreting some lines. This is no more the end of the world as you know and want it nor something to be feared and fought. If indeed you value freedom and democracy, you might want to consider the nations that use religion as part of governing. Just a thought. Last I checked NO ONE is even thinking of telling churches or families they cannot teach religion as they see fit. The problem of course is that churches do not have a captive audience but there is still plenty of religion and praying in schools and everywhere else on earth, where exactly is it that you think God cannot reach? Oh you of little faith. “Render unto Caesar” and “unto God” and wise up.
OK, I’ll bite Edward. My guess would be that if it comes up, both men are comfortable enough with their own faith and their supporters to answer honestly but along the lines of “‘I cherish the Ten Commandments but I also respect the law of the land and why schools are not the place to teach and establish religion. I respect the people on both sides and will also respect the courts judgement”‘. I could be wrong but I see no up side in wading into the issue and nothing to be gained by deliberately being disrespectful of either side (in general or) as you campaign. They might both or either think it is a waste of money and settled law, they might think the Commandments need to be tattooed on every arm, but neither can say so and not have a fight. Frankly, if people of ALL religions spent more time BEING their tenets instead of fighting over them, the world would be a better place.
Pleeez Sandi – your quoting the Bible is the epitomy of hypocrisy. Don’t embarass yourself or insult the rest of us with your feigned Christianity.
Ashley, this isn’t a relgious issue, you’re right. As for the rest of your post…your issues are with the Constitution, not me.
Sandi – I’m sorry if I implied you were not a Christian. It is not up to me to judge that one way or the other. That is between you and God because only you and God know your heart. I wasn’t thumping the Bible for effect. I am simply asking the question. Is it possible to fufill the great commission without appearing to indoctrinate people? I believe the Bible holds the answers for today and that it takes more than a “sound Bite” knowledge of it to discern what God has said and is saying.I was answering an earlier question from Xela referring to the school killings statistics I posted earlier.
And we have to pay taxes in order to live lives of influence and peace in this country. HOWEVER I do think it is wrong to force people to pay taxes to support what they consider to be immoral, such as abortion. That’s another whole can of worms.
I still contend that the religion of secular humanism (man is his own god)is being taught in schools everyday. It’s not a matter of if religion is being taught, it’s a matter of what religion is being taught.
Perennialism (all religions are the same), Pantheism (god is in everything), polythesim (there is more than one god), and atheism (there is no god) are all religions.
I work with a group of teenagers at church and a couple of them shared with us last night that their teacher told them homosexuality is not a sin and they were wrong to think so. Now, homosexuality is no worse than any other sin but is is sin according to the Bible. These young people are being taught one thing at home and at church and then being told that what their parents and church leaders believe is incorrect. Is that not indoctrination?
I like Jack’s opinion
“Actually I am for government getting out of education totally. If we did, we could probably give tax breaks toward education and let people decide where to send their kids. Also, public schools propogandize our children. When your educated in a govt. school you think like govt. wants you to, because that is what your taught. That is why so many people trust the govt. so much. It has been pounded into their heads by public schools for their entire youth”.
WELL SAID
“HOWEVER I do think it is wrong to force people to pay taxes to support what they consider to be immoral, such as abortion. ”
What about bombs? Nuclear weapons? Chemical and biological weapon development? Shall we be given an out on funding those with our tax dollars?
91.”I still contend that the religion of secular humanism (man is his own god)is being taught in schools everyday”
Yes the power of “MAN” is always stressed. Yet, man has very little power in the scope of the universe.
Will, first off I doubt a teacher would use the word “sin”. It has no meaning outside of a religious construct.
The teacher might have said that homosexuals are people like everyone else, subject to the same rules and NOT subject to bullying or harassment based on their sexual orientation. And that’s correct, and no one calling themselves a “teacher” has any business saying anything else. And if their parents or “church” are teaching them that they’re in a position to cast judgment on anyone, shame.
You might suggest to these young people that they find better things to think about than who other people are sleeping with.
Paying taxes for what we dislike – now that is a can of worms. Can’t remove 1 dislike without having to remove all the dislikes. I for one do not like Capital punishment others dislike property taxes, the dislike list is endless.
In the school setting – if you see a document,theory, principle of thought – generally the next step is to explain what it is, where it came from, why we like it and how we can use it. Dec. of Independance- freedom from England to free the States from heavy taxes and supression of religion with some other stuff thrown in. We don’t teach that taxes are bad and so ie religion. What is taught (okay it’s been years) is that the US tries to have a fair method of taxation (debatable) and people are free to believe and worship as they choose – including the non- religious.
If one posts the 10 Commandments as history – then you can post something from Islam. Both started with Abraham – Bibilical fact. Then that leads to the difference between Jews and Christians and you go through the Bible. Then “Why” don’t Muslims use “our” Bible. It is a very sticky wicket after that when it comes to separation of Church and State.
It makes no difference how long the Commandments were posted in Giles – in todays traveling society, it was just a matter of time that this matter was pointed out and addressed. Giles no longer lives in isolation.
“The teacher might have said that homosexuals are people like everyone else”
They are people. But they are not like everyone else. Most have severe psychological problems.
.” Most have severe psychological problems.”
This from the neo-Confederate. Ironic.
Psycho problems? really? What do heterosexuals have that require so much medication?
Had to add – what about all the adulterers, rapists, sex addict members anonymous, whats their problem. just sayin
“This from the neo-Confederate”
Nothin’ neo about bit. Look I know you poor northerners that don’t even have a clue about loyalty or heritage don’t understand honoring your past. If I was from Jersey I would be ashamed of it too.
But those of us actually FROM HERE.. honor the past and the sacrifices of our past family members, to protect VA. from the onslaught of deadly northern troups.
“Frankly, if people of ALL religions spent more time BEING their tenets instead of fighting over them, the world would be a better place.”
@ Sandi – Amen Sister! =)
On the other thing though, point taken, and I admittedly have no idea where either of them are on the issue. What if though, one of the candidates wanted to box his opponent into taking a stance (let’s face it – whichever way you go, a buncha folks are gonna hate it) as a political move, which side wins more votes?
@ BRC guys – congrats on the return to 100+ club! Make Casey buy you a cheesy-western or something!
JackM, see Rbmich. He/She makes the point better.
Doubtless it is indeed a “sticky wicket” Edward. If one gets “boxed” into making a careless statement, they will be held accountable and if they “weasel out” of an actual answer that will be duly noted and exploited too. For one issue voters or voters with a limited scope, there are many tricky questions, not just this one. As you can tell from blog reactions, every comment is “fair game” whether you meant it to be aggressive or simply an observance. Politics in this nation looks more and more like a blog thread IMO. And that is not an improvement.
@ Will #90: Thank you for that will, that is indeed Christian of you and I more than appreciate it. I do consider myself a “follower of Christ” and I believe absolutely in God and his perfect plan. What I do not believe in are fantasies or man made religion and I think there are things in the Bible that were put there by priests, popes, kings and scribes that are not and others that may not be divinely inspired or directed because such is the human heart. So I do not accept the Bible as the “infallible word of God” and I believe the legitimate parts of the Bible make this clear. Acts is one of my favorite books for a reason. So I suppose that is what makes me a non-Christian and “fair game” to many who profess the undying faith of the “blood of Jesus”. I certainly cannot claim to have been given a divine commission that makes me go against the Constitution or human kindness and if that is a sin, I am yet again convicted. I cannot condemn or demean homosexuals, not people who believe or worship differently. Devout Muslims, the Amish, Quakers, Jews and Buddhists put me and many others to shame. Who am I to tell any of them or anyone else they will never gain the Kingdom of Heaven. I suppose I remain a believer that Christians must be as humble with what they do not know, and are not meant to know as they are passionate about what they do know. But Jesus never shunned or scolded the sinners and I certainly cannot do more than that.
Don’t follow the awful example some set here Will, be your own man and allow the humility of your service to lead your comments not the anger and frustration that is also the bane of life. It will get you better results IMO.
Dublin Dawg, you remain an eyesore and an example of what not to be. Good for you and thanks for the honesty.
Jack, please stop saying “those of us actually FROM HERE.. honor the past and the sacrifices of our past family members, to protect VA. from the onslaught of deadly northern troups“, when you get your comb engorged. SOME of us do feel as you do, but the rest of us know that we best honor our past, the culture, pride and beauty of our heritage by living it and acknowledging the mistakes while striving to heal and move forward with them as our guide not our “sack cloth and ashes” burden. My relatives did not sacrifice or die so that I would be angry, hate-filled and intolerant of change or dishonest in my interpretation of the true past. It is not respectful to revise, correct and romanticize mistakes because so many simple, good, decent and honorable people sacrificed themselves for “the cause” that was wrong.
#106 Come on, Sandy, Dublin Dawg hasn’t threatened to punch anybody or vowed to settle things offline in weeks now.
“It is not respectful to revise, correct and romanticize mistakes”
I don’t view the South leaving the US as a mistake. I wish we would secede again.
Yeah gdad I think you’re starting to grow on me – kinda like a fungus LOL
Sandi – “I cannot condemn or demean homosexuals, not people who believe or worship differently. Devout Muslims, the Amish, Quakers, Jews and Buddhists put me and many others to shame. Who am I to tell any of them or anyone else they will never gain the Kingdom of Heaven”.
I am sorry to say this Sandi, but the only people you seem to have no problem demeaning are Christians who believe the Bible. And it is not our job to judge anyone as to salvation or damnation, however it is up to us to seek the heart of God so that we can know the truth as it pertains to our lives and God’s plan for us.
If you do not believe what the Bible says then how do you know what Jesus said or did or acted like? You say the book of Acts is your favorite book then what about Acts 1:8? Do you believe Jesus said this? What do you do with 4:12? Do you believe the book of John? Is this where you form your opinion of Jesus?
In the book of Acts the followers of Jesus were first called Christians at Antioch. It was a derogatory term meaning “little Christs”. “They act like a bunch of little Christs”. O that we should be deserving of such an accusation.
Kristen “95.Will, first off I doubt a teacher would use the word “sin”. It has no meaning outside of a religious construct”.
I believe the actual conversation happened during a class in which the teacher was “indoctrinating”(IMHO) the students by telling them that all sexual orientations were ok.I will have to inquire further as to if this was part of an anti bullying discussion or not. The student asked the question “isn’t homosexuality a sin”? To which the teacher replied “no, sexual orientation is genetic”.
My reply to the student was that although homosexuality is a sin, it is no worse a sin than hating or judging or lusting or stealing or lieing or you fill in the blank.
This brings up the subject of tolerance. To tolerate something is to say I disagree with it but I will tolerate it out of respect for others rights and opinions. Acceptance means I accept it as not being wrong and that is what is being “indoctrinated” into school age kids under the guise of tolerance.again IMHO
Kristen – Do you believe homosexuality is a sin?
No will, I don’t believe in the concept of “sin”. Nor do I believe in heaven or hell.
I especially don’t buy into the notion that labeling another person a “sinner” puts the one standing in judgment in a superior spot.
You seem like a nice guy, but I would say that it’s not the job of a teacher to reinforce the prejudices of any particular household. Substitute “black” for “homosexual”. If some parents choose to teach their children that races other than caucasian are of lesser worth, is it a teacher’s job to reinforce that belief?
I’d define “acceptance” as understanding that some things are outside of our control and interests, and we’re in no position to either cast judgment or try to alter.
Will, I am sorry you feel “the only people you seem to have no problem demeaning are Christians”, but I can honestly say that I have never, not even when they were so completely offensive it hurt to listen, have I ever demeaned anyone who was obviously a true Christian. Could I have been wrong in that assessment? Possibly, but I believe the armor of God, the blood of Jesus and the security of salvation is quite distinct. It is unimaginable for a true Christian to say some of the things that have been said by those who profess their sanctity. No, it is not for me to judge but there is a way to discern a person’s true heart if you listen. I may well return fire with a Biblical vengeance but I have never done so totally unprovoked or without reason.
I freely admit I cannot verify what words were actually those of Jesus and which were altered, left out or misinterpreted. That is why I take the message as a whole and not the piecemeal, throw it in your face method so many “Christians” use. I know my sin and my lack of Grace. It is a daily struggle. I also know that if you profess to believe every word in the Bible is divine, you have a special obligation (from that same book) not to sin, not to lead others to sin and not to do anything that might lead someone else to sin, so it is a heavy burden and many do not carry it well. Can you honestly say you do? How many times have you blessed those who cursed you and turned the other cheek instead of lashing out and insulting them? How many times have you implied someone who disagreed with your interpretation was wrong, immoral or unworthy, even if you did not use those exact words. Being a real and obvious Christian is a burden few in this world can carry and fewer still manifest and make known. Hubris, ornery arrogance or just plain zealotry are much more likely to be the Christian response in my experience.
Kristen – Just because you have your own definition of a word does not mean it is the correct one. I am using webster.
It is also not the job of a teacher to reinforce the idea that calling homosexuality wrong is being predjudice. It is not the job of a teacher in a publicly funded school to undermine the teachings of the student’s parents PERIOD.
And equating lifestyle choices with race is a bad arguement. It’s like saying not hiring someone for a job because they are a junkie is the same as not hiring them because they are black. Race is genetic, that is fact. Homosexuality is a choice. Even if you happen not to believe that, it has not been proven otherwise.
On a philosophical note, since you do not believe in sin how do you explain the evil in the world. Is it a product of evolution? If everything evolves forward, should not goodwill toward fellow like beings be a part of that. And why is evil growing worse in our world?
A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule. So Kristen if you believe in any moral code at all, violation of it is a sin.
“115.A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule.”
There are no “known moral rules”. There are actual laws which we all live under, and breaking one of those is called a “crime” for which we are duly punished (hopefully).
will, I missed your “webster” definition of the word. Please direct me to where you posted it?
And will…what on earth do “evil” and “evolution” have to do with one another, unless your argument is that evolving means becoming “nicer”, which has nothing to do with reality? Talk about mixing completely different things.
“Homosexuality is a choice. Even if you happen not to believe that, it has not been proven otherwise.”
No, it hasn’t, and parents concerned that their kids won’t grow up hating the same people they hate should homeschool. No one else wants their kids being fed that backwards nonsense in school.
And Jack…”sin” is, as I said, a religious construct that has nothing to do with “morality”. Atheists are certainly at least as “moral” as some fo the people parading ostentatiously around in church.
@117
Everyone who has a moral code of any kind commits a sin when they violate it. Including atheists.
Kristen–I am so sorry for your outlook on life.
Straight, I feel worse for people who spend their lives in fear of burning in “eternal hellfire” or whatever. But to each his own.
Jack, “sin” implies going to hell or some other afterlife punishment.
@120
I don’t think sin implies anything more than implied by definition.
I think you must have had a bad church experience down the line.
Wow, lots of good points here, way too many to read in one session. I read this, meaning the article in Sunday’s paper, and my take-away was this. I really don’t care so much about whether the display of the Ten Commandments stays or goes. I think that is up to the school and it’s members and supporters. If the majority is in favor of keeping then fine, keep it, if not then the display should be removed. I have two real concerns though, one is the use of threats against the Doe family. Not one of the commandments guys. The second is the fact that Doe family does not want to display their true identity. This is just flat out wrong. Hey, Doe family, yes you, you are cowards. Don’t go stirring up the nest while you hide safely behind the ACLU. If you are too afraid to reveal your true identity, then you must not feel that strongly about the display, and if that is true, then shut up. You’ve got to know which battles are worth fighting for, and when you find one, trust me, you will display your name proudly. So come back when you grow a spine. And, by the way, the lawyers for the ACLU are only there because they were unable to find unemployment elsewhere. Sad but true.
Sin is setting yourself up as your on God. The root of sin is saying “God, you be God up there and if I need you I’ll call on you but in the mean time, I’LL run my own life thank you.” I believe lucifer said it best, “I will be like the most high God”. The rest of what we see acted out, the things we call “sin”, are really only symptoms of our setting self on the thrones of our hearts instead of God.
Sin unfortunatly is often as prevalent in church as in the private sector. I may not be able to drink or smoke or commit adultery and be a member of your church but I can hate my neighbor and serve on the board.
No one is perfect. The thing about the Ten Commandments is they are God’s absolute holy standard. No one can keep them all of the time for all of their life. What the people of God should have done at Mt. Sinai is fall on their faces and cry out “There’s no way we can do that”. Same goes for the sermon on the mount. If we could meet God’s holy standard in and of ourselves, we would have no need of a saviour. That’s why Jesus came. To meet the standard and pay the penalty for our rebelion. He became our sin so we could become His righteousness (right ness with God). Defeating death He rose from the grave so we no longer have to fear death. And he sends the Holy Spirit to dwell in the hearts of those who believe in Him so we may become more and more like Him.
This is really what seperates Christianity from the other religions. Religion is all about reaching up to god to try and earn his favor. Christianity is about God reaching down to man and doing what we never could do for ourselves.
Says the person hiding behind dgc25624! Hypocrisy anyone? I bet they could too find unemployment anywhere! Thanks for the laugh.
BTW, would you care if the display was words from the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the Qur’an? Would you be concerned if the display was Buddhist teachings? What about some atheist refutation of religion? Public schools are not private enterprises. You either believe that the government has the right to establish and favor a religion or you don’t. That is what this boils down to and the people who would doubtless be harassed if not actually harmed in Giles County for admitting their opposition further makes the case for me. Maybe some should practice the Commandments they want on display instead of fighting over them.
So you think they *should* be subject to harassment and even physical violence if they dare to assert their constitutional rights?
Will – If it’s always inappropriate for schools to undermine parents’ teachings before their children, then you agree it’s wrong for them to post
the Ten Commandments where the children of non-protestants (that’s actually what’s being posted- the protestant version) will see it?
You clearly have no idea what secular humanism is. Teaching the pythagorean theorem without working in Jesus somehow is not secular
humanism. The civic religion of ancient Rome was not secular humanism. As for a teacher defending the rights of homosexuals, it doesn’t
matter if homosexuality is a choice, because one’s religion can also be chosen and teachers are no more allowed to say Jews are bad people
than they can say blacks are inferior. If you think this teacher was issuing a moral condemnation of Christians, take it up with the ACLU.
Evolution is not teleological – there is no guarantee that things will move in a direction human society would consider an improvement. Nor is
there any objective indication that “immorality” is getting worse. Crime, for example, has been declining since the early 90s. One can find
quotes from every time period going back to antiquity about the degenerate nature of the younger generation. It’s not a sign of declining
morality – it’s a perennial feature of the older generation’s perceptions.
Ashley – Not an issue of religion at all? Have you read the minutes from the meetings? Have you seen the comments here? Are you willfully
blind or do you just take us all for fools?
Your contention that removing this “Historical Document” display would be unconstitutional is absurd. There is no constitutional requirement
that it be posted, therefore there is not constitutional issue in removing it. Indeed, most schools seem to operate without legal issues without
such a display.
The premise that the new display has a secular purpose might have worked months ago, before the school board tried displaying the Ten
Commandments every which other way – and before everybody and their sister went running off at the mouth about keeping God in schools.
The cat’s out of the bag now. Everybody can plainly see from the public record that the purpose of this display is to find a way to post the Ten
Commandments and the purpose of posting the Ten Commandments is the advancement of religion.
Thomas Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists was *not* merely concerned with the latters’ freedom to worship as they pleased, but also
with what they termed the “degrading acknowledgements” they had to endure for what religious freedom they had – namely that the taxation
system in Connecticut was such that the Baptists had to support the Congregationalist church with part of their taxes. This is directly analogous to non-Christians being forced to support, through taxes, a school system that directly and intentionally indoctrinates their children with Christian religious teachings. Jefferson’s wall of separation was meant to prevent such injustices. If you doubt that’s the intention of the First Amendment, read James Madison’s Memorial and Remonstrance, as he was one of the chief architects of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
The government, as such, does not possess a right to freedom of speech or freedom of the press. These are rights reserved to the people – the people as private individuals, not as government officials, whether elected or unelected.
Your fear that “God or other faiths are not being allowed any more” is ridiculous and unfounded. Students can and do display their own religious beliefs on lockers and in their own speech. What’s being enforced is that the government has no right to such expression. The only thing happening here is that Christians are being denied the privilege of promoting their religion using the machinery of the state, a privilege that has *never* been accorded to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Wiccans, or any other religious group in the history of the United States.
As for the anonymity of the plaintiffs, there is no right to confront accusers in civil cases. Why would you need to know their history? The government’s conduct is the only issue of fact here for a court to decide. Anybody with half a brain knows why you and people like you would want to know their identities – to harass, intimidate, terrorize, or even eliminate. You know – “By their fruits shall you know them.”
Someone using initials and a zip code, and complaining about the spinelessness of other anonymous people needs to take a lesson on the meaning of irony.
The 10cs are no more a “historical document” than Goodnight Moon is. And dcg the “majority” doesn’t get to rewrite the bill of rights. We live in a secular society, thank goodness.
Will, I think you have hit on my problem with the Bible as the infallible word of God. Through centuries of priests, scribes and rulers it has been tampered with IMO. I think the whole proposition of Jesus as taking our sin for all time is a man made projection. I do not think that was Jesus’ purpose nor that God is that small minded. I cannot accept that.
Sin is many things and sure “setting yourself up as your on God” would be one but there are many many more. When anyone sins they are saying “God, you be God up there and if I need you I’ll call on you but in the mean time, I’LL run my own life thank you.” And yes, many can do that just fine and still man the pulpit the pew and the sanctuary.
I agree that “No one is perfect”. But I disagree that no one can keep the Commandments. As holy standards go they are fairly easy. Why do you say “No one can keep them all of the time for all of their life”? Of course we can, I know people who have done so. God does not demand perfection, he demands obedience and faithfulness. Man projected the whole “saviour” aspect of cleansing our sin forevermore. I am convinced of it. God would simply have no need to do such a thing. Even the disciples were not totally committed to the being of Christ and all it manifested and they were there FGS! I reject that Jesus was my scapegoat or my key to the Kingdom of God. I just cannot accept that as his purpose nor that God would want us that way. Religion is the worship of God. The devotion, the reverence, the faith and the love that God deserves has to come from your heart and it has to be done knowing you will face judgement. Which also means he knows we will fail, stumble and sin. It is how we handle that sin, that failure, that will matter and how we turn to or away from God when we do that will be our measure IMO. That we cannot come to the Kingdom of God except as accepting the murder of Jesus for our sin is too simplistic to me. I am responsible for my every thought and deed and nothing Jesus sacrificed can or should change that.
I also refuse to believe that Jews, Muslims and many other devout in their faith in God people will be denied Heaven because they did not accept Jesus as their sacrificial lamb.
Sandi – so your know people who have never looked at someone with lust in their heart? And you know people who have never stolen anything – ever – not even time away from their jobs? And you know people who have never envied what others have? And you know people who have kept the Sabbath holy their entire life, always honored their mother and father, and never claimed to be a child of God but acted otherwise? There was only one person who ever did that, His name is Jesus. If God grades on the curve, what is the standard? We are all certainly better than Hitler or some murderer on death row. So if that’s the standard, I’M IN. But what if God’s standard is Mother Theresa or Billy Graham, them I’m afraid I’m in trouble. God does not grade on the curve. His standard is absolute holy perfection. One “sin” seperates us from that holy perfection. That’s why an atonement for sin is neccessary. That is why a murderer and thief on a cross can find redemption.
You either believe Jesus is who he says he is or not. He is either the only begotten Son of God or he is not. He is either the way, the truth, and the life or not. He was either telling the truth when he said “no one cames to the Father exept by me” or he was a liar. He is either who He says He is or He is the greatest deceiver that ever lived. You can’t have it both ways.
God set the standard and made sacrifice for the atonement of our sins possible. The punishment for sin is death. He loved the crowning achievement of His creation, man, so much that He gave us a choice to love and obey Him or not. Love demands a choice and God gave mankind that choice. We chose to disobey God, thereby setting ourselves up as god and that’s where the trouble began.
You can choose not to believe but if you truly seek the truth you will find it. If I did, anyone can. I cannot speak as to other religions. I can only speak of what God has revealed to my heart as truth.
I am sorry you refuse to accept Jesus as your Saviour. I definitly do not want to argue the point with you. I pray for you and others I see on
these blogs and I ask for your prayers in return. I believe we may be living in the last days according to prophesy. If not the last days, we are definately heading for troubled waters in our nation and as a world.
Yes will, Oct. 21 will be here soon. Be sure to spend all your confederate money and give away everything you own.
Will, you are deliberately forgetting an awful lot. But yes, I have known people I considered actual Saints (and I do not use that term lightly). One just passed away recently and I cannot conceive of a better Christian or servant of God for her entire life.
I did not say no one has ever sinned, but keeping the Commandments, yes, I can safely say that I have had the honor of knowing and being mentored by several such individuals. I disagree that Jesus was the only one who did or the only one who could.
I did not say nor imply that God “grades on the curve” and if that is all you can bring to the discussion I have wasted my time. We are done.
May God help me to understand why I bother.
“May God help me to understand why I bother”
Obviously because you have nothing better to do.
I have many better things to do and nothing good EVER comes from a religious discussion. I guess I will never learn. If I burn in hell, I burn in hell, but I refuse to believe what I am told to believe and that my sin is mitigated much less paid for by the murder of Jesus. Man is the one looking for scapegoats not God.
#128 “I pray for you and others I see on these blogs and I ask for your prayers in return. I believe we may be living in the last days according to prophesy. If not the last days, we are definately heading for troubled waters in our nation and as a world.”
Nice fudge. We are living in the last days. Unless we’re not, that is. In which case maybe we’re living in the next-to-last days. Or the second-to-last days.
Gdad, regardless, I will continue to pay my utility bills.
“I also refuse to believe that Jews, Muslims and many other devout in their faith in God people will be denied Heaven because they did not accept Jesus as their sacrificial lamb.”
Sandi, it makes you wonder what sort of god they believe in.
#133 BTW, I have to admit that one day one of these last days prophecies will come true. It might be centuries and centuries from now and it will be after countless wrong predictions of the date(s), but one day it will come true.
This is an excellent argument for Charter Schools! Take your tax dollars to the school of your choice.
Won’t see that happening though, will we? NEA is way too powerful.
@Sandi The most influential of modern-day man, our POTUS, is a master at finding scapegoats. You are spot on!
Kathie, what tax dollars of yours have ever gone to a school? Do you pay a tax that those without children do not pay for that privilege? There is no “school tax” for you to “take” anywhere.
Thanks for the backhanded compliment, but I do not think that President Obama is the “most influential of modern-day man”. He is certainly the one being scapegoated for everything that crashed in this nation by dishonest right wingers though. No doubt about that.
@Sandi If there is no school tax where does the public school system get their money? Just because there is no line item for “school tax” doesn’t mean that parents shouldn’t have the same opportunity for school choice.
If the buck doesn’t stop at the President’s desk, where do you want it to stop? Are you saying that holding him accountable for his actions are scapegoating?