2011.10.20
Thurman: Bickering over Mormonism
We pray for a president
By Debbie Thurman
Thurman is a writer from Monroe.
As expected, the debate over whether Mormonism is a branch of Christianity has resurfaced in this the prelude to another presidential election year. Former Massachusetts Gov.Mitt Romney is once again the target of zealous Christians, bent on discrediting him for his out-of-the-mainstream faith as a member of the LDS Church.
Perhaps a more pertinent discussion than the one over what constitutes Mormon ideology/theology is the one concerning what qualifies a person to lead the free world as president of the United States. Are we to disqualify a presidential candidate based on the peculiarities of that person’s faith, or would we do better to examine the fruit of his/her life and the over-arching principles that guide it? Is the ability to govern a nation — a secular enterprise — to be judged on the same plane as the ability to lead a church or a religious group?
Kathleen Parker has expressed her opinion on this issue.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-shameful-bias-against-mormons/2011/10/12/gIQAR5WVfL_story.html
Comment by Gary — October 20, 2011 @ 8:22 am
What an evil letter from a self-proclaimed Christian. “As a longtime Christian, I have been embarrassed by my fellow professing Christians whose character flaws have far exceeded any we may perceive in Romney. Consider the current occupant of the White House. Faith or no faith, he has misled the people who placed their hope and trust in him on many fronts.”
Lady, when your faith is superseded by your partisan blinders, you have already crossed the line.
Indefensible garbage.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — October 20, 2011 @ 8:31 am
Thurman loses all credibility when she continues to deny Obama’s faith and pledge as a Christian. Mormanism is considered a cult simply because it portends to add to the Bible, it adds prophets, it adds verse, it adds more to the life of Christ, it adds angels, and it adds doctrine. Does this make Romney a bad candidate. No more than any other none Christian running for office whether it be Jewish, Muslim, Athiest, Jehoviah Witness, Wican, and on and on. A man’s faith is important in seeeing how well he upholds his faith. If he sincerely follows the teaching of his faith then looking at his faith gives clues as to what to expect from him. If he loosly follows the tenants of his faith, that too gives credence to his personality.
What is most telling is to see the hypocrisy of GOP and TP writers on this site after all that has been stated about Obama’s faith and now to ignore Romney’s.
Comment by Richard J Beason CPA — October 20, 2011 @ 5:10 pm
“Perhaps a more pertinent discussion than the one over what constitutes Mormon ideology/theology is the one concerning what qualifies a person to lead the free world as president of the United States.”
Good point, and it has absolutely nothing to do with religion. When we sit around yacking about whose religion is better, we sound like some third-world nutcase theocracy. There’s no room for any of this in a modern secular democracy.
That Rick Perry belongs to a church of hateful exclusion shouldn’t be an issue. He’d make a fine candidate anyway.
Comment by Kristen — October 20, 2011 @ 6:00 pm
Mormonism adds prophets and adds scriptures? Actually, Mormons didn’t do these things, God did. Since when are new scriptures and living prophets unChristian or unBiblical? Biblical Christianity is characterized by new prophets and continuing scripture. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that all of what God will ever want us to know is in the Bible. The Bible doesn’t even contain the word “Bible.” And, the Bible didn’t exist until about 300 AD. The book of Revelation was NOT the last book written. The Jews complain that the Christians added to the Bible and added prophets. I love Jews, but let’s not make the same mistake they did.
Comment by Richard Gardner — October 20, 2011 @ 9:08 pm
I, the “evil” lady who wrote the above opinion, am wondering in what way I have “denied” President Obama’s faith. If he says he is a Christian, then so be it.
I called to account all those who profess to be followers of Christ, but whose “fruit” might indicate otherwise. Bickerering? Not very Christian-like. I called to account a leader who has been a poor example of leadership and whose principles are difficult to grasp, in the opinions of many.
President Obama’s record is out there for all to see, So is Romney’s, as a former governor. Was I judging either of these men hypocritically or unfairly? If so, how? I am subject to the same judgment. By all means, inspect my fruit.
Was Jesus being evil when he took the hypocrites of his day to task, by the way?
Everyone is partisan in some way. To deny that is to be hypocritical. We all have to judge which candidate is the best one for the job before we vote. We have worldviews that shape our opinions, and we express them, as is our constitutional right. How about focusing on the real issues at hand rather than playing the old partisan card?
Comment by Debbie Thurman — October 25, 2011 @ 12:31 pm
I said your letter was evil, and I believe it was. I also gave an example of why I said it. You made it very clear that you are “embarrassed” by “professing Christians whose character flaws have far exceeded any we may perceive in Romney. Consider the current occupant of the White House.” which also made it exceedingly clear you believe President Obama only professes to be Christian and that he has worse character flaws than someone who follows and worships a true blasphemer. Pretty evil IMO.
President Obama has not “misled the people who placed their hope and trust in him” one scintilla as much as the Godly George W. Bush did (and others before him as well) and yet you act like he is to be especially called out and that too is evil partisan political intent IMO.
No you have not “called to account all those who profess to be followers of Christ, but whose “fruit” might indicate otherwise”, you ONLY mention President Obama. The game of politics is not Sunday School, but you singled President Obama out for your own selfish partisan reasons ans there is no defense for that. By what right do you call anyone to account in the first place? “Judge not…” ring any bells?
Comparing your actions to Jesus is also pretty out there. I did “inspect” your “fruit” and I rendered my opinion of it.
Sure, plenty of people are partisan, but they do not all use their religion to judge and malign a politician they disagree with.
Maybe if you wanted Romney or yourself and the issues to be the “focus” you should have thought about your offensive delivery of your partisan views.
I do not agree that President Obama has been anything less than a good Christian leader, an honest politician and someone who has struggled with some very heavy and difficult issues. If the only way you can build Romney up is to tear Obama down, that is a sad thing to offer.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — October 25, 2011 @ 1:33 pm
To #6 (Debbie): I found your commentary quite reasonable, and your conclusion sound. One of the guiding principles in a Christian’s life should be the commandment “love your neighbor as you love yourself”. This sometimes means voting for the guy who isn’t a Christian over the guy who is. If the guy who is a Christian doesn’t know what he’s doing as a political leader and inadvertently hurts people in his attempts to help, then even a Christian voter consider pulling the lever the other way.
Comment by Brian Lindholm — October 25, 2011 @ 1:58 pm
@ # 7 Obama has not been misleading? Pass this stimulus package and the unemployment will never rise about 8%. It is now 9.1%.
Pass this Obamacare and health care costs will go down. They have gone up over 22%.
Pass this Obamacare and illegal immigrants will not be able to ever use it. His health care advisory board in the department of HHS has ruled that yes they can receive it.
Elect me to be President and I will close Guantanamo. It is still there.
Elect me to be President and I will never do renditions. Oops they are still being used.
Should I go on there are many many more. If we combine his misrepresentations with his buddy Joe Biden it would fill volumes.
Comment by Jack — October 25, 2011 @ 2:40 pm
8. brain, If I love my meaness and lack of concern for others, then by your quote, I should be mean to others and vote I as I desire. Or perhaps a more literal reading of love thyself may insinuate sexual deviation. Perhaps if you follow the “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” saying you would get better results.
Comment by Richard J Beason CPA — October 25, 2011 @ 3:07 pm
Context matters. I said: “President Obama has not “misled the people who placed their hope and trust in him” one scintilla as much as the Godly George W. Bush did (and others before him as well) and yet you act like he is to be especially called out and that too is evil partisan political intent IMO.”
ALL politicians “mislead” us. Whether it is intentional or beyond their control is always the question. NO ONE keeps all of their “political promises”. That has never been news. To single out only one president is unfair and partisan, that is all I am saying.
I have a list of lies too:
“The smoking gun could be a mushroom cloud.”
“Saddam would not let the inspectors in.”
“We know exactly where they are.”
“We believe that, in fact, Saddam Hussein has reconstituted nuclear weapons.”
“I’m a uniter not a divider”
“I won’t run a deficit.”
“I’m spending less than Bill Clinton.”
Should I go on?
Comment by Sandi Saunders — October 25, 2011 @ 3:14 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with Brian’s #8. I believed (and still do) that George W. Bush was/is a Christian, but I also believe he didn’t know what he was doing as a political leader and inadvertently hurt people and America in his attempts to help. So yes, even a Christian voter had to consider pulling the lever the other way. It happens.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — October 25, 2011 @ 3:33 pm
To #10 (Richard): I was thinking of Matthew 22:37-39: “Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
The second part of this passage is generally assumed to mean the “Golden Rule” instead of referring to some sort of twisted and damaging self-love that gets projected onto others. Indeed, to quote Matthew 7:12: “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.“
Comment by Brian Lindholm — October 25, 2011 @ 4:00 pm
Sandi, why open the discussion to consider George W. Bush, a past president who has nothing to do with the upcoming election? He served his time, regardless of what we may think of him, and now gets to play elder statesman like Clinton and Carter, bless ‘em. I didn’t talk about Bush because he was not the subject at hand. Gee, that “sin” of ommission could go on and on to take in other people not named.
I will remind you that I also called to account Congress and anyone (I included myself) who professes Christ but whose actions fall short of affirming that they are a follower of him. All of us will fall short in some way, some woefully so. Mr. Obama has affirmed, by the company he keeps, the things he has admitted are “above his pay grade” and his policies that he serves Christ very differently from the majority of Christians. And to point that out is not an evil act. It’s just something you happen to disagree with. That’s fine. Must we resort to name-calling when we disagree?
Civility is a lost art.
One more thing: If I am to follow Jesus, then I will be modeling myself after him. “Be holy because I am holy.” If that’s “out there,” then that’s where I want to be!
Comment by Debbie Thurman — October 25, 2011 @ 5:31 pm
Debbie, I can appreciate that you think “civility is a lost art” because someone who supports our President would dare to take exception to your characterization of him but the reality is that you get back what you send out in such an effort.
I opened “the discussion to consider George W. Bush” because it is valid. The office of President does not happen in a vacuum and it has had many occupants who deserve the same scrutiny you want for President Obama and I merely pointed out that his “failure” in your eyes can be put into context and in that context it is not nearly as great as you insist. You spoke about the “qualifications” for the job so why is a past President not relevant? Because you say so? That happens a lot with people who excused and supported Bush but it does not make the opinion of others irrelevant.
I remind you that the very Christ you speak of told us not to “judge” our neighbors (granted he did not say even those in the White House). YOU have judged that President Obama’s “actions fall short” and I disagree. Many people serve “Christ very differently from the majority of Christians”, including Mormons and that is not for me to condemn either. I notice that you are all kinds of upset that I challenged your judgement of our President’s Christian “worthiness” but totally ignored my very pointed insult to Mormons. That speaks volumes and somehow I knew it would play that way with you all. I have no more right to judge Mormons than you have to judge President Obama on “Christianity”. Get it yet?
Comment by Sandi Saunders — October 25, 2011 @ 8:17 pm
To #14 (Debbie) and #15 (Sandi): I’m going to quote back a portion Sandi’s comment #12, but the three words altered and the tense changed: I believe that Barack Obama is a Christian, but I also believe he doesn’t know what he is doing as a political leader and is inadvertently hurting people and America in his attempts to help. So yes, even a Christian voter has to consider pulling the lever the other way.
Isn’t this essentially one argument Debbie made in her commentary? If the one sentence, “Consider the current occupant of the White House. Faith or no faith, he has misled the people who placed their hope and trust in him on many fronts,” makes her commentary evil, then one must similarly condemn Sandi’s comments #11 and #12 as evil.
The bulk of Debbie’s commentary was dedicated to the argument that Romney’s Mormonism shouldn’t be an automatic disqualifier for the presidency. Obama and members of Congress (party unspecified) received one critical sentence each. Hardly worth the uproar.
Comment by Brian Lindholm — October 25, 2011 @ 10:24 pm
I consider it evil for anyone to question and judge another’s avowed Christianity, especially on the scant evidence used here. Having had it happen to me, on this very blog, I am extremely sensitive to such judgements and believe no mortal capable of such. You too are taking it out of context. The insult is real, glaring and yes IMO, evil. She said: “As a longtime Christian, I have been embarrassed by my fellow professing Christians whose character flaws have far exceeded any we may perceive in Romney. Consider the current occupant of the White House. Faith or no faith, he has misled the people who placed their hope and trust in him on many fronts.”
She has every right to judge his capabilities as President and to speak of any weakness or faults she sees, she has no right, or in my opinion, call to question his Christianity. There is entirely too much of that in this nation and people who profess faith are the worst for it. The “bulk of her argument” was negated by her need to judge the President’s “character flaws” as lacking IMO.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — October 26, 2011 @ 8:10 am
No, Sandi, I don’t “get it,” and neither do you.
“I remind you that the very Christ you speak of told us not to “judge” our neighbors. …”
No, he did not. He said to judge righteously and not hypocritically (“First remove the log from your own eye and then you will see clearly how to remove the speck from your brother’s eye”). He said we would be judged (by him) in the same way we judge others. Fair enough.
So, we ARE to judge character. You and I do it all the time. You have done it to me here. And the discernible character of any candidate for political office is in play.
I am done with this discussion. It it is going nowhere. I have said my piece, and I have nothing to add.
Comment by Debbie Thurman — October 26, 2011 @ 9:29 am
“He said we would be judged (by him) in the same way we judge others. Fair enough.
So, we ARE to judge character.”
Yes, we can judge. But, unlike Jesus, when we judge it doesn’t mean anything.
Comment by Kristen — October 26, 2011 @ 10:10 am