Are all sex offenders dangerous?
The Virginian-Pilot today had an interesting story about a lobbyist who attempts to soften sex offender laws. Tops on Mary Devoy’s list would be weakening the provisions that require those convicted of sex crimes to register on the sex offender list. (She has a personal stake in this as her husband is on the list. Read the story before prejudging, please.)
Her point is that with so many thousands of people on the registry it makes it too hard for Virginians to really understand and comprehend who the truly bad actors are. Predator pedophiles are hidden in the forest of stupid young men who had consensual sex with their underage girlfriends.
We are going to try in the coming weeks to pull together a Point/Counterpoint on this topic, but would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
Have you ever looked at the state police registry? Does it hold any value?
March 27, 2012 - 1:35 PM
No, the registry nor the designation of violent sex offender has any value. CA’s looking to notch their conviction belts have made this entire system into a joke, ruined thousands of lives and made what should be an actual resource into a laughing stock. The injustice in this one area alone is enough to turn anyone against the idea of real justice being possible. People have no idea how easy it is to get a felony conviction nor how easy it is to end up on the violent sex offender registry and until you go through this wringer, too many do indeed keep their minds and eyes closed as to the damage and worse, total lack of help this has all been.
I’ve never liked the idea of a registry, anyway. Aside from the shortcomings Sandi laid out, it is an admission that the justice system failed in protecting the public, that whatever punishment this or that pedophile received was not sufficient to keep him from doing it again, that the justice and courts system are pretty sure he’ll molest someone else again…but all they’re going to do about it is put his name on a list.
If they are convinced there is a good chance he’ll molest someone else, as his name on a registry admits, then he shouldn’t be out of jail. If they are convinced the incarceration, and whatever other punishment he received, is sufficient to keep him from being a threat again, then consider his punishment met and don’t ruin his life by putting him on a registry. The registry is a cheap way out.
I also question the value of sex-offender registries. Indeed, I remember reading about two particular cases in the past:
[1] A 17 year-old girl has sex with a 15 year-old boy. Convicted of statutory rape. 25 years later, girl is now a 42 year-old woman, married, a mother of two. And a registered sex offender. Is she really a menace we must fear?
[2] A 40 year-old man gets very drunk. Urinates off his own back porch, unfortunately within eyesight of some children. I could see him being convicted of public drunkenness, but that’s not what happened. He was instead convicted of “exposing himself” and is now registered as a sex offender for life.
I can’t provide links, but these were both real cases of people who ended up on sex-offender registries. And do we really want them caught up in anti-offender madness like the rules in Florida that rendered many ex-offenders homeless?
http://news.change.org/stories/florida-s-bright-idea-don-t-force-sex-offenders-to-be-homeless
I thought the comments left at the article were also worth reading. It seems the posters there remember the McMartin preschool case.
I don’t want to hijack this thread but for those unfamiliar with the events surrounding it, the wikipedia article is informative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial
…Some of the accusations were described as “bizarre”,[6] overlapping with accusations that mirrored the just-starting satanic ritual abuse panic.[4] It was alleged that, in addition to having been sexually abused, they saw witches fly, traveled in a hot-air balloon, and were taken through underground tunnels.[4] When shown a series of photographs by Danny Davis, the McMartins’ lawyer, one child identified actor Chuck Norris as one of the abusers.[21]
Some of the abuse was alleged to have occurred in secret tunnels beneath the school. Several investigations turned up evidence of old buildings on the site and other debris from before the school was built, but no evidence of any secret chambers was found.[4] There were claims of orgies at car washes and airports, and of children being flushed down toilets to secret rooms where they would be abused, then cleaned up and presented back to their unsuspecting parents. Some interviewed children talked of a game called “Naked Movie Star” suggesting they were forcefully photographed nude.[4][1][22] During the trial, testimony from the children stated that the naked movie star game was actually a rhyming taunt used to tease other children—”What you say is what you are, you’re a naked movie star,”—and had nothing to do with having naked pictures taken.[4]
Johnson, who made the initial allegations, made bizarre and impossible statements about Raymond Buckey, including that he could fly.[1] Though the prosecution asserted Johnson’s mental illness was caused by the events of the trial, Johnson had admitted to them that she was mentally ill beforehand. Evidence of Johnson’s mental illness was withheld from the defense for three years and, when provided, were in the form of sanitized reports that excluded Johnson’s statements, at the order of the prosecution.[23] One of the original prosecutors, Glenn Stevens, left the case and stated that other prosecutors had withheld evidence from the defense, including the information that Johnson’s son did not actually identify Ray Buckey in a series of photographs. Stevens also accused Robert Philibosian, the deputy district attorney on the case, of lying and withholding evidence from the court and defense lawyers in order to keep the Buckeys in jail and prevent access to exonerating evidence.[24]….
I am a child advocate and see children who have been victimized by sexual predators everyday.If putting his/her name on a “list” informs a caregiver and makes them a little more diligent in keeping their children safe then I say put their name on a list…hang it from the rafters….put it on public billboards…yell it from the roof tops!! A pedophile can not be rehabilitated and depending on the charge….whether or not the victim is old enough to testify…..and how good your defense attorney is a violent sex offender may only have to pull a small amount of time. If you look closely at the registry there is a notation Violent Yes or No. I don’t think a “stupid young man” would be categorized as violent
This was released within the past few days and SHOULD put to rest once and for all the question of whether the registry has any redeeming value; it references a chart that probably wouldn’t cut and paste here or be allowed, but it is so well described that everyone will get it. And if the link is allowed, you can look at it. Unless you believe that New York is somehow totally different from the rest of the country, this cannot be ignored.
From “Sex Offenders – A Reality Based Discussion”
03/27/2012
“This chart, RSO (Registerable Sex Offense) Arrest Counts, from the presentation says it all. It depicts every sex offense arrest in New York State for 21 years (10 years before the enactment of the sex offender registration law to 11 years afterward). The vertical line separates the before and after periods. The green line at the bottom shows arrests for those who had previously been convicted of a sex offense. The chart dramatically illustrates that 95% of those arrested for sex crimes in New York State have no prior convictions for sex crimes and thus are not listed on any registry. It also dramatically illustrates that the registry has had no impact on recidivism. Contrary to popular opinion, sex offender recidivism was low before the registry and low afterwards.”
http://sexoffenderfacts.blogspot.com/2012/03/chart-says-it-all-registry-has-no.html
Well Karen, you are just wrong. I personally know of several “stupid young men” who are on the list as “Violent” sex offenders, not just on the list of sex offenders. NO ONE is talking about protecting or not identifying actual predators and actual criminals but the laws and the convictions put people on the list who should not be there, who are not predators, who are not violent, who are not sex offenders in any real sense at all. Do you seriously think people are trying to protect the predators we all know exist? The reason this is an issue is because the system has blown all bounds of credibility.
5 Karen – I agree when you say a pedophile cannot be rehabilitated. They should still be behind bars. Don’t ever let them out. Ever.
(I have some more creative and more permanent punishments in mind for pedophiles, but they would likely not pass the “cruel and unusual punishment” test.)
Mixing up the drunken (but otherwise harmless) idiot who urinated off his back porch with the true criminal rends less meaningful the punishment for crime of pedophilia. (There’s an economic, Gresham’s Law lesson in there, but I’ll save that for another day).
Don’t water down the punishment by saying, on the one hand, “This creep has paid his dues and we can let him back into society” and then telling the people, “This guy should not be in society…watch out for him.”
I have to call into question the statements by several that “pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated.” First, you need to realize that pedophilia is a medical/psychological diagnosis designating an adult with a primary sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Many believe it includes an interest in adolescents, and it does not.
Many pedophiles have never inappropriately touched a child. Most pedophiles who do choose their victims from their circle of family members and friends’ children, and those folk, once caught, have a very low recidivism rate, one of the lowest of all the sub-categories of sexual offending, and the across the board average is much lower than people believe. Depending on the sub-groups included, studies that look at true recidivism, not arrests for other violations, place the rate between 2 and 8 percent.
That and the fact, verified by many studies, that 95% of new sexual offenses are committed by those not on a sex offender registry render the registry an especially ineffective tool in law enforcement.
Sorry Sandi, you may disagree, but you have your facts wrong, or at least are shading them in the best possible light ot support your argument. The “stupid young men” you know who are listed as violent sex offenders for having sex with their underage girlfriends are not so listed because they were 18 and their girlfrind was 16, or even 15. The “violent” categorization for consensual acts only applies when the the victim is either age 12 or younger, or the victim is age 13 or 14 and the offender is at least five years older than she is.
http://sex-offender.vsp.virginia.gov/sor/statutes.html
You may believe it is okay for 18 and 19 year old men to try to have sex with 13 and 14 year old girls and you are entitled to your OPINION. However, in my opinion, there is something fundamentally predatory about an 18-20 year old man seeking out 13 and 14 year old girls for sexual gratification.
As to the topic of the P/CP – keep the registry. It is a hugely valuable tool for both the public and law enforcement.
Chuck, since I did not describe any of the events in any case I was familiar with I am not sure how I can be “shading” any damn thing. For the record, one involved a bad breakup and an attempted rape that has even been recanted and one involved a drunk who playfully swatted a 13 year old’s butt (fully clothed), standing in a yard with others present, while he was refusing her request for a beer and a cigarette and she told her family it was an “assault”. Both men had their lives ruined, work ability severely limited and will be haunted as “violent” sex offenders for the rest of their lives. The other case I am familiar with only peripherally so I will not describe it but I believe the man.
You can claim that is unfair, or as “shaded” as you like but I see lives wrecked and decent men ruined for stupid mistakes with no real harm to anyone, and it is not fair, right or what this law was designed for. Even the prosecutors agreed it was a tough break in both cases.
What are the freaking odds that I am the only person in Virginia who knows of three such people wrongly on this list?
Well Sandi, to quote the good Reverend Al Sharpton, something just doesn’t add up. To be registered as a violent sex offender, the guy with the butt swatting incident would have had to be convicted of aggravated sexual battery.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-67.3
Now it would seem that given the facts you describe, the necessary elements of that crime are not met. The facts you describe simply don’t rise to that level and if, as you say, “even the prosecutors agreed it was a tough break in both cases” why did they prosecute the case as a sexual battery? They had the discretion to charge with simple assault. If the facts were limited to the circumstances you describe, why would a prosecutor proceed with something he/she didn’t agree with? Something is missing.
However, even if it is all accurate, wouldn’t getting rid of the whole list be like throwing the baby out with the bath water? There may be isolated incidents of people having to register for what society may see as less serious offenses, but are you really saying we should just get rid of the thing altogether? There are also hundreds of real predators who are violent or who victimize children on the list. Given the rates of recedivism for sexual offenders, is it really your position that society doesn’t have a legitimate interest in knowing the whereabouts of those individuals?
Too often this is the bifurcated stance of our progressive society. When one of these violent sex offenders kidnaps and murders a child, people demand to know how this happened. “He’s been convicted before, why was he out, why didn’t the community know he lived in their neighborhood?”
However, if the government actually takes steps to try to keep up with these types of offenders, it’s too invasive and unfair. The same thing happened with 9-11. According to progressives the government should have known it was coming and been able to stop it. They want the government to identify and track every terrorist and thwart the plans that terrorists do their damndest to keep secret, but they have to do without conducting any surveillance, listening to any phone/radio traffic, or reading any e-mails.
It’s like progressives think that somebody in the halls of government is sitting on a good ole’ Batcomputer like they had on the Adam West TV show. You know, one that will just spit out a card with the location of the terrorists or sex offenders on it. Then the cops can just run to an old factory that has “Terrorist HideOut” written over the existing sign.
So, like the challenge liberals are so fond of throwing at conservatives about healthcare, if you think the sex offender registry should be eliminated, what’s your plan for how to deal with this issue?
Chuck, unless you have had a front row seat to what I have seen, heard and experienced, you would indeed believe I am just making stuff up. It is that incredible. I assure you, the only thing left out of this story is that the “criminal” is mentally ill and was alone during the “plea bargain” in one instance and the recantation came after the verdict, which in Virginia means nothing in the other.
As I said already, NO ONE, not even me, has suggested that we get rid of the list. But only certain crimes and criminals should be on it so that a community does not look more dangerous than it is and so that people who simply made bad judgments, had bad lawyers or lacked credibility would not become additional victims.
There are incidents of people having to register for what society would see as less than serious offenses. Real predators need to be monitored, wear a location or tracking device and frankly, no penalty is enough including the death penalty for anyone who hurts a child. I am a fierce advocate against predators. But the jails/prisons, these lists and shelters are full of people who are not predators. Of course society has a legitimate interest in knowing the whereabouts of a predator, forever. I have no argument with that. I only want to be sure someone IS a predator before their neighbors shun them, employers refuse to hire them and they are always suspected.
I know the origin and the intent of the list and I support it. I have simply not said otherwise. Do you read my posts?
Do you not think it is not wasteful for the government to try to keep up with people who are not predators? I see it as both too invasive and very unfair for just the three I know about to be lumped in just the SAME, no distinction, with people who have actually raped, hurt, harmed and scarred people, especially children. It is wrong.
It is not only “progressives” who have some bifurcation going on and that whole 9/11 crap is certainly a good case for it. Just like the fake moon landing, the alien abductions and the grassy knoll. You are trying to talk apples and oranges IMO. If the only way to fight terrorists or any criminal is to surrender civil rights we have a bigger problem than can be solved.
I am fairly certain that it is reasonable to think that “Bin Laden determined to strike in the US” was indeed a message worthy of the “good ole’ Batcomputer” but I think the fact is that you just want to argue.
I have an issue with someone claiming to be a child advocate, and then uses the pain inflicted on abuse survivors as justification for the registry. There are so many problems with this mindset.
You don’t have to look very hard to find OBJECTIVE research that indicates the registry has been completely ineffective at preventing/reducing sex crime. Check out Jeffrey Sandler PhD’s 2008 study, “Does a Watched Pot Boil?” The sex crime rates are unchanged from ’86-’07 – 10 years prior to and 11 years after the registry. Once you weed out self-serving politicians, power-tripping law enforcement and sensationalist media (all of whom benefit from sex offender hysteria), you are left with a massive failure. Why would a child advocate support something that doesn’t help children at all, when the monumental costs to operate & maintain it could be put to far better use? Do we want revenge, or prevention? Can’t have both.
Re-offense rates for sex offenders are extremely low and 93-97% of child sex abuse victims are abused by people who are NOT on the registry. Why doesn’t a child advocate care about THOSE children? Or the children whose loved ones are on the registry, and whose well-being is endangered every day because their addresses are available to vigilantes and uninformed citizens alike?
You are doing far more damage to children by forcing them to be perpetual victims. They are SURVIVORS. Encouraging them to hold on to resentment and anger forever is not healthy. http://www.endsexcrime.org
I am a sex offender advocate. Their lives have been destroyed beyond comprehension. Until these people get their records sealed, their names off the scarlett letter, and their info. off CORI, it will be impossible for any of them to live balanced, normal lives again. the actual rate of re-offense is 1.5%. so we have no sex offender issues. these people were punished for their crimes. they learned their lessons and its time to let these people have their privacy, get a job, have money, and live a normal life again. the only way people will be safe in this country is if they are allowed to work, have a place to live, be able to buy food, medicine, clothing, shelter, and have some money for recreation. children are safe now in this country and its time to stop passing lies that sex offenders are re-offenders and dangerous people. its time to stop lying and give these people a break now. they have been punished harder than heretics in the middle ages. the only difference now is that they dont have public stonings. if you have any common sense you will give these people a second chance. they are human beings too. not only the people you are protecting. they are human beings. they have a right to live normal lives. its time to end double punishment, ex post facto laws, and my favorite bill of attainder. get a life.