And they call themselves Christians
By Theodore N. Brossoie
I am a Christian minister, and I am troubled over the vote for a mandate to prohibit same-sex marriages in North Carolina. The vote to pass the mandate was almost a 3-to-2 margin. What possessed Christians to vote for such a mandate?
Where is it in their gospel of “Good News” that compels a vote against people who were born with an attraction to the same sex humans? Many years ago, I met our Lord Jesus Christ in a conversion experience that resulted in his leading me from being an engineer to becoming a Presbyterian minister.
Never has my Lord urged me to condemn Christians whose sexual orientation is to find union with a same-sex Christian. So who or what is leading so many North Carolina Christians to prohibit unions between Christians with same-sex orientations?
Continue reading here.
Brossoie, of Rocky Mount, is a retired Presbyterian minister.
May 20, 2012 - 8:00 AM
God created the two sexes and assigned them different rolls for a very good reason, procreation.
Thousands of years of the socialization of mankind have evolved to make traditional marriage the accepted norm because it is the best arrangement for raising children. This is so not just with Christianity but all forms of human society.
Nowhere in the mammalian kingdom is the homosexual relationship the norm, humans are hard wired for heterosexual relationships.
I have no problem with a homosexual monogamous relationship acquiring leagal status if it is a lifelong commitment and takes a court ruling to dissolve. But don’t call it a marriage because it isn’t.
This is the way most Americans feel. Polls indicating the contrary are apparently wrong as every time it’s on a ballot, the people choose traditional marriage. What people tell a pollster and how they vote privately seems to be different.
Five justices will not change thousands of years of human socailization.
John R sez: “God created the two sexes and assigned them different rolls for a very good reason, procreation.”
All very well and good, but I hardly think that legalizing same-sex marriage will stop heterosexuals from procreating. And besides, our planet is probably overpopulated as it is, so who’s to say G-d didn’t create homosexuality as a sort of population management strategy?
Also, as to this: “Nowhere in the mammalian kingdom is the homosexual relationship the norm…”
So what? Interracial marriages aren’t the norm either, but I don’t see anyone railing against THAT anymore. In case you’ve forgotten, America is supposed to be a democratic republic, in which the majority doesn’t get to deny rights to minorities.
And as for this comment: “But don’t call it a marriage because it isn’t.”
Your opinion, John R. Try saying that in places like Connecticut, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, Iowa, and Washington DC, as well as Canada, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Portugal, Argentina, South Africa, and Mexico City — with many more yet to come — where same-sex couples most certainly ARE legally married.
And finally: “Five justices will not change thousands of years of human socailization [sic].”
Just so you know, John R, those “thousands of years of human socailization [sic]” included slavery, subjugation of women, and going to war with others just because you don’t like their religion. Not everything from the past is worth keeping. Times change, and human understanding always evolves, even when there are few old fuddy-duddies who won’t.
thousands of years of human social construction also created a justification for slavery, rape, and murder. I guess you’d support them as well, as long as they were cleverly called something else. geez, welcome to the 21st century.
Where is your God now?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual and bisexual behavior in various (non-human) species. Such behaviors include sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting among same sex animals. A 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1,500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them. Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species. The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood, since most species have yet to be fully studied. According to Bagemihl, “the animal kingdom [does] it with much greater sexual diversity – including homosexual, bisexual and nonreproductive sex – than the scientific community and society at large have previously been willing to accept.” Current research indicates that various forms of same-sex sexual behavior are found throughout the animal kingdom.[5] A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species. Homosexual behavior is best known from social species. According to geneticist Simon Levay in 1996, “Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity. One species in which exclusive homosexual orientation occurs, however, is that of domesticated sheep (Ovis aries). “About 10% of rams (males) refuse to mate with ewes (females) but do readily mate with other rams.”
The observation of homosexual behavior in animals can be seen as both an argument for and against the acceptance of homosexuality in humans, and has been used especially against the claim that it is a peccatum contra naturam (‘sin against nature’). For instance, homosexuality in animals was cited in the United States Supreme Court’s decision in Lawrence v. Texas which struck down the sodomy laws of 14 states.…..
E William, rape, murder and abusive forms of slavery were condemned thousands of years ago. Read your Old Testament Bible.
Even our Founding Fathers such as Jefferson and Washington intellectually knew slavery was wrong while yet accepting it in order to form our union.
Times do change but human nature does not. Sorry, E William, you are in the minority on this issue and it will hurt the Libs in Nov. Sorry!
God did create Adam and Eve. However, God also created Adam and Steve and it is ludicrous to presume that God makes mistakes or that God condemns that which He made. Using the Bible out of context to condemn a community of our fellow man is wrong. Procreation is not remotely the only function of a union between a couple. Nothing in the equal rights to the GLBT community will stop procreation.
Thousands of years have proven that norms change and people change with them. We no more condemn the cave men for their brutality than we do the slavery Jesus ignored, it was the norm of their time. We evolved because we are supposedly a “higher thinking” creation capable of such.
In all forms of society and in all religions, people who cannot, or do not want children can still marry and companionship, monogamy and partnership is valued in all societies.
No one is trying to make “homosexual relationship the norm”, people do not “turn gay”. It is not “catching”. Humans are “hard wired” for intimacy and companionship. Not all are “wired” for heterosexual relationships.
The religious community was fine with all unions, including those with no possibility of progeny being declared marriage in the church and in the legal system and that is now their problem to deal with. No one cares if you have a “problem with a homosexual monogamous relationship” or not. It does not involve you. The unmitigated truth of “created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed” remains true for the disabled, the elderly, the childless by choice and the GLBT community. You do not have the right not to recognize their right to legally marry. The church has the right to exclude them, the government does not. This is a purely Constitutional, equal protection issue.
Your Bible informed you that the races were not to mix too, but our society has survived that change. We will survive this one too.
Most Americans supported slavery. Most Americans supported segregation. Most Americans supported miscegenation. That too was “the way most Americans feel”. In the end, right prevailed. It will here too.
Yes, eventually, and sadly those justices will “change thousands of years of human socailization”. For the better, because we lack the comprehension of our own Constitution. They have no choice, because we gave them none.
BTW, excellent commentary. He made me proud to be a Christian!
“Nothing good comes from Nazareth,” Sandi.
So sayeth the Bible.
I’m not so sure your bible is talking about the races so much as people from an immediate neiboring land. Biologically, homo sapiens can mate and make a healthy baby. homosexual homo sapiens cannot.
I am not, nor have I ever, used the Bible to claim that inter-racial or inter-faith marriages were a sin, but I know many did so:
More along the lines of this chapter in Deuteronomy:
“When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations —the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles[b] and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.”
There remains the age old problem of interpretation and taking things out of context, they did it then and they do it now.
And even now, it remains so for some: http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/RacemixingIsNotChristian.htm
The religious zealots against homosexuals having equal rights and being legally married will continue in that same vein 50 years from now. It sadly, is what it is.
Many lands or many nations does not an inter-race make.
All are essentially of “african” or “arabic” biological descent.
He’s iranian and she’s an iraqi in not an inter-racial thing. It is more of an inter-cultural and the boarders that you build thing.
Don’t you go marrying some West Virginian, you fool.
In addition, (…is a retired Presbyterian minister) says it all. The Presbyter skill set (the documents they live by, not the Bible,) is not all too concerned with what the Bible says, anyway. The Presbyterian Church (I loosely capitalize this) has tried to become too many things to too many different people. “We wouldn’t want to offent anyone business person that fattens our coffers, as it were” In the words of a captain of a ship: “They are away without way.” It would be interesting to have the argument from a biblical rules perspective and not a Prebyterian rules perspective.
I agree completely that many lands, many nations, many languages, many customs, many religions and many skin colors do not make “races” per se. But there are STILL people who do, and they use the Bible for that “truth”.
This guys is also a “Pastor”:
“In Genesis, God created Adam, the first man. The Holy Bible is a history book of Adam’s people. The Hebrew word for man is Adam itself and actually means to show blood in the face; to be fair; rosy cheeked; to be ruddy; and to be able to blush or flush. One must admit that the other races do not fit this description and therefore, cannot descend through Adam. God declared, “Everything after its own kind”. From Adam, there proceeded a chosen line who followed God after righteousness. From Adam’s son Seth, to Noah the chosen line remained racially pure and faithful to God. Noah and his family were preserved during the Great Flood while God destroyed the disobedient. Noah’s son, Shem, continued the chosen line and these people became known as Shemites or Semites.”
http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/christian-identity-what-it
On and on he goes.
Just yesterday at a funeral, the “Pastor” assured us all that “Christianity is the only religion in the world that gives us any hope of an eternal life. No other religion on earth offers that hope”. He stood there in that sanctuary and said that.
The Bible is misused, misquoted and twisted to mean whatever some deluded soul can convince another it says on a daily basis.
The refusal of and discrimination toward the GLBT community is rooted in the exact same Biblical ignorance, intolerance and supremacy doctrine that is not there for any race, people or group.
Say what you will about the Presbyterian Church, any group that does not bow to the Pope has some credibility with me.
So, as long as I don’t “bow to the pope…” it doesn’t matter what religion I profess?
The Catholics have it all wrong, too. One cannot buy oneself into heaven by “works and acts.”
The accepted version(ing) of the Catholic Bible is not the same as the Holy (Protestant) Bible. Books are kept. Books are deleted. Dragons are slain.
In addition to my suggestion that people actually READ the bible instead of trying to interpret what it says by throwing quotes out there out of context… it would behoove one to brush up on their Hebrew, Greek and possible thier Aramaic.
Actually READ the thing.
Study THE HISTORY of the thing.
Know CONTEMPORARY HISTORY of other places and things mentioned in the thing.
Excellent link regarding the topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIw6ngIqaD0
Ravi Zacharias -35 year respected top religious scholar and speaker on Christ and Christianity and the Bible answers one of the tougher questions asked about Christianity and its “intolerance”
Sandi…
Here (I think) is probably something we can both agree on:
The majority of “pastors,” as well as liars, muggers and thieves are full of it.
I agree with that completely and absolutely George #14. Too many people never read it for themselves (or cannot understand it) and either rely on what they are told is in it, or the interpretation of this or that Pastor who has told them what is in it. The variance, even among Christian denominations is startling.
Ignorance is no excuse and should stop being tolerated. When I talk to people about the Bible being made (the garnering of the chosen texts, the editing, what was left in and taken out that we know of, and how many translations and interpretations there are), most literally look at me like I have grown another head. I am not kidding. The amount of entrenched ignorance is staggering. Ignorance is not Faith!
BTW, as long as you respect that I choose to bow to God alone, no, it does not matter what religion you profess, even if that is none at all. I do not “appreciate” what the Catholic Church has done for God or mankind on several levels. I cannot, no matter how hard I pray, get past the fact that one word from one Pope would have and still could alleviate so much suffering, pain, disease and death. I cannot, no matter how hard I pray, get past the way they have “stored up riches”. I cannot, no matter how hard I pray, get past the systemic cover for pedophiles and abusers of children. I know they have done and will do a lot of good in the world, but I cannot get past those hurdles.
#8: “Biologically, homo sapiens can mate and make a healthy baby. homosexual homo sapiens cannot.”
Like I said before, George: So what? Procreation is not, never has been, nor will it ever be a requirement for marriage qualification. And besides, the world already has more people on it than it has the resources to support. Get over yourself.
Sorry Lake Claytor, I will not grant the title of “scholar” to anyone who tells homosexuals you must be celibate and decline the most important expression of love, commitment, fulfillment and intimacy a loving couple can share. I find that absolutely absurd and I see no justification for it in the Bible.
#18 Sandi
I detect an anti-Catholic bigotry. The Catholics do a lot of good in the world. I wonder about your feelings toward the state of Israel as well.
#6 Sandi
“God did create Adam and Eve. However, God also created Adam and Steve and it is ludicrous to presume that God makes mistakes or that God condemns that which He made.”
God created man in His own image meaning He gave man free will. We have the choice to follow God’s will or our own will. We choose the life style we lead. Offen we fall short of following the will of God and we are all sinners.
I agree that all of God’s creation is good. Just that the way we choose to live our lives is not always God’s will but our own.
Ahh the “born that way” vs. “choice” argument…tell us JohnR, when exactly did you “choose” to be heterosexual (if indeed you are)?
“Are people ever born with conditions that are not normal and
sometimes harmful?
Is there any difference between sexual desires (“orientation”) and
sexual behavior?
Should people act on every desire they have?
Homosexuals are born as males or females, so why should they follow
their desires but not the design of their bodies?
Some homosexuals insist that they have had homosexual
desires as long as they can remember. Somehow this is supposed to
prove that these desires are the result of nature not nurture. But this
argument ultimately fails to justify homosexual behavior or any behavior
for that matter.
First, notice that “born-that-way” is an argument from nature or
design: “Since I was designed with these desires, I ought to act on them.”
The people who say this normally presume that the Designer is God. But if you insist that God designed your desires, then you cannot deny
He designed your body as well.” Turek
20
Obviously, we are interpreting the Bible very differently. I believe in the exclusivity of Christ, you don’t. That’s fine. Fortunately, we are free to disagree.
We are not to conform to the world, we are to be set apart.
“In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome”
1 John 5: 3
John R, I have no “anti-Catholic bigotry”; not in the least. I have deep and serious issues with the Catholic Church. It is your problem if you cannot tell the difference.
The only “feeling” I have “toward the state of Israel” is that they should support and defend themselves. As should the rest of the world.
You are welcome to believe “We have the choice to follow God’s will or our own will. We choose the life style we lead”, I do not happen to see it that way. I believe that God made us all and that he would not deny the blessings of a life partner to some of his creation. You will answer for yourself so that is all you should concern yourself with. Sure, I could be wrong…so could you.
Other than the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus, I don’t believe God’s will is being thwarted on this issue. I do not think homosexuals who want to marry and have the blessings of a life partner are going against God’s will. I certainly will not be taking the word of men who condemn them as knowing “God’s will”.
God gave us free will and He will judge us on our thoughts and behavior. God’s will is to be done, not ours, whether we are heterosexual or homosexual.
Except of course for that minor little detail that there is no God. Not even yours.
27….I’m with Scott on this one. A lot of people claim to profess what God “wants” or what God “Says.” How can they do this when there has never been the slightest shred of evidence that this God, or any other God for that matter, ever existed? The bible says that God is a Jealous God. Isn’t jealousy akin to envy, one the the deadly sins? The Bible was written by men, not one word was written by a God. Over the centuries, monks and other scribes changed the texts to suit their own biases.
As for homosexuals, they are no different than heterosexuals. They are people who have the same hopes and dreams that anyone else does. They should have the same rights. I’m conservative on almost all other issues but concerning religion / cults and the persecution of homosexuals, I have little tolerance for either.
@#26: “God gave us free will and He will judge us on our thoughts and behavior.”
And if you think the homophobic bigotry you chose to embrace brings you closer to heaven, John R, then I guarantee you’re in for a really nasty surprise when your time comes.
There is no evidence for or against the existence of God, or any gods for that matter. But, many things that past societies used to attribute to being God’s wrath or something like it, have been scientifically examined and found to be entirely due to natural processes…like earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, eclipses, etc.
I freely admit that my intelligence is too limited to conceive that there is no God; that this is all there is. I cannot grasp that concept. I have researched enough to agree on the Bible being written and edited by Man and a lot of what people insist is “God’s will” is too conveniently close to projection for me, but I cannot accept that there is no God. In the end, even if “that still small voice” is just me, I like it and appreciate the guidance, solace and strength it gives me. I don’t consider that “minor” at all.
I agree with you JimW too. A lot of what people insist is “God’s will” gives them license to be, say and do things they know the Book they profess to love warns repeatedly against and I labor over that one daily. God is not man, he does not think like man, he does not function like man and he would not judge, excuse or condemn like man IMO. But yes, I am well aware that is only an opinion. If I could prove it, it would not be faith.
Sandi, I respect your right to believe what you choose. It is a very private matter and I understand the “voice” you are talking about too, I’ve heard it. I think that voice is actually me talking to myself though.
As for faith, to me faith is the belief in something with no evidence to show it is real. I was an agnostic for much of my life. However, after spending several months in Cambodia and seeing the condition of some of those people and their children, I came to the conclusion there cannot possibly be an all caring God that loves humanity. People believe in a given religion because other people tell them to. It is indoctrination, nothing more. I do not mean to offend anyone, but it makes no more sense to blindly believe in a God than it does the tooth fairy or the Easter Bunny (although I have seen the Easter Bunny at the mall before),
31″I freely admit that my intelligence is too limited to conceive that there is no God; that this is all there is.”
Sandi, I had to think about that statement for a moment….especially the “is this all there is” part. You really don’t have to believe in any religion to stand in awe of the universe we live in. We managed to evolve on a small spec of dust orbiting a small star tucked in a far off corner of a galaxy with over 100 billion other stars. And this galaxy is only one of trillions out there. The atoms in your body were cooked inside stars billions of years ago. I am constantly amazed and thrilled by the beauty and diversity of our little planet and all the wonderful things life as a human has to offer. While there is no evidence of an afterlife, just think how amazing it is to be living your life now. It is hard for me to put into words, but I don’t need to believe in something that doesn’t exist to feel good about life. The natural world more than fills that void for me.
Friends, I realize this conversation has run far-afield of where it began so forgive me for taking it a bit further.
Anyone interested in clear thinking on the subject of the supernatural and the like should read Carl Sagan’s excellent book THE DEMON HAUNTED WORLD: SCIENCE AS A CANDLE IN THE DARK.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle/dp/0345409469/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337709598&sr=8-1
This book changed my life (for the better) in the same way some say Jesus has changed theirs.
Valid points again JimW and my remarks about the Catholic Church are very much in line with your mention of Cambodia (or a hundred other pools of misery that could be named). Just this past weekend I buried my aunt. A tiny little twin who birthed 5 and had 4 living children and she had lived a hard life at low wage jobs only to end it with a horrible death I would not wish on Rush Limbaugh. In the last days, the pain, suffering, and mind blisteringly cruel death she suffered goes beyond human understanding. I do not know that I would ever honestly characterize God as “all caring” or say that God “loves humanity”. I think God created life and the earth but I do not believe he meddles in the affairs down here in any manner. You can pray until you knees scab over and you will still die, maybe too soon, maybe in agony, maybe in peace, but you will die. Suffering will happen, inhumane treatment of humans and animals will happen, I would put more faith in the Easter Bunny (who I have seen too!) managing things than in the idea that God does. Again, I believe that is totally man’s projection of what man would do, say, think and want. God is so much bigger, more unfathomable, more removed than that. I cannot conceive God as being a manipulator. That is man.
35…Yes, I used to believe that God was a “hands off God” that just kind of observed us from afar but never intervened. Then I thought to myself, what would be the point? Why would a God make us and then disappear into the “heavens” with no interaction whatsoever. Also, what were God’s beginnings, who made God? I think Man did.
As someone who can get so absorbed in a book that I cry over fictional characters, I will have to concede that you might be right. I am just not willing to admit it. Small brain, remember?
#6 Sandi
” ‘….created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,… deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed’ remains true for the disabled, the elderly, the childless by choice and the GLBT community. You do not have the right not to recognize their right to legally marry…”
Beautiful words and all Americans should know them by heart, but the Declaration of Independence is a statement and does not carry the weight of the law of the land.
As I stated previously, I have no problem with homosexual unions having legal standing if entered into through a legal process and requiring a court ruling to be dissolved. But such unions are not marriage.
This legal standing can be achieved now in every state through the legal process of granting power of attorney.
Does it concern you Dems that former Gov. and present VA Dem Senate candidate Tim Kaine has stated recently he is opposed to gay marriage?
The Marriage Protection Act defines marriage as between a man and a woman and is the law of the land, signed by Pres. Clinton.
The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in nullifying CA Prop 8 which had outlawed gay marriage in CA stopped short of defining marriage or requiring the fed. government or any other states to recognize gay marriage.
Its 2-1 ruling very narrowly was limited only to nullifying CA Prop 8 on the grounds that it violated the equal protection clause of the Constitution because Prop 8 took away rights that had previously been granted by the state to gays.
It is not a certainty that the SCOTUS will take up this issue. The Court may just leave it up to the states to decide and avoid the decades of unrest that have plagued the nation since Roe v. Wade.
Is there real evidence that there are “trillions” of other galaxies out there?
If actual, physical evidence is the only way to prove that something exists…
Oh yeah, we all hate “unrest”. You, as a citizen are free to believe and think anything you like. Elected leaders have to “support and defend the Constitution” and a religious objection to the death penalty, abortion or gay marriage is not an option they can legally defend IMO. The very basic, innate (endowed by their Creator) thing that makes a right, a right, is the fact that it applies to all equally. It is a “special right” or an exclusionary right if it only applies to some citizens. That is not what America is, not anymore anyway. This battle will be decided, probably sooner rather than later and I remain absolutely convinced how it will have to go unless the Constitution is amended and they do not have the votes for that.
Obviously for very different reasons, but even Bob Barr regrets DOMA.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-barr5-2009jan05,0,1855836.story
Actually, there hundreds of billions of galaxies in the observable universe, a far cry short of trillions, but still a lot. That, admittedly, is an estimate but an informed one based on observation, reason and scientific principles.
While we are on the topic of galaxies…how does something (material) come from nothing?
In my view, there is far more “evidence” of a divine creator.
Gay marriage will hit a speed bump this Nov. along with a lot of other misguided liberal issues.
Didn’t Obama say he favored leaving the gay marriage issue up to the states? That is one thing he and I agree on!
On the subject of “how we got here”… http://www.improbableuniverse.com/introduction.html
This book wouldn’t appeal to advocates of strict six-day creationism, but more than one physicist/cosmologist has looked at the nature of the universe and asked, “How did the universe end up being so utterly well-tuned for life?”
@42 Lake, is God something or nothing? If God is something, then who made God? And if God is nothing, well….then God doesn’t exist?
You and Brian should watch this video. The book based on this talk by Krauss, I didn’t like so much but provides a bit more detail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo
Lake,
Can you list or explain the evidence?
JohnR: many folks in the past said the same thing (or something very close to the same analogy) about civil rights for Asian-Americans, African-Americans, Women, and The Poor (“will hit a speed bump”. The funny thing is that even if Gay Rights hits a “speed bump,” speed bumps are driven over, they are surpassed, and progress is made.
Thank god that not that many people historically share your retrograde Klan-like vision of Civil Rights in this great country. Progress will be made, change will take place, more Americans’ rights will be protected under the law, and backward thinkers and bigots will continue to howl like Old World monkeys from their antiquated cages. Welcome to Modern Age.
45
God is the Alpha and Omega. God has always been. He is God. You say there is no God. But, if there was, wouldn’t God be omniscient and omnipresent?
46
Hmmm…where to begin? The intricacy and beauty of a butterfly. The diversity and perfection of flora and fauna. Random chance did not birth these things in my view.
The question is and will always be, how did it all begin?
Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNZHVdD0ocM
Here is a piece regarding Krauss’ book.
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/05/not-understanding-nothing
48…”Hmmm…where to begin? The intricacy and beauty of a butterfly. The diversity and perfection of flora and fauna. Random chance did not birth these things in my view.”
You forgot to mention tapeworms, ticks, black widow spiders, flesh eating bacteria, cancer, heart disease,and millions of other nasty parasites, maladies and horror that exist with the beautiful butterfly you mention. Did “random chance” birth God? Nope, Man did.
JimW, an interesting point. Reminds me of the line from Inherit The Wind “God made man in His image, and Man, being a gentleman, returned the favor.”
50
All play a part, Jim.
God is and always will be. We can’t pretend to know the full depth of God. Our time here is but a mist. A twinkle in the eye.
52. “We can’t pretend to know the full depth of God.”
True, but we can pretend there is a God.
I cannot fathom anyone finding comfort in such platitudes. That is the “don’t look” approach and it does not work for me. A loving and forgiving God, capable of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, mobility to the disabled, turning water into wine or feeding 5000 with food for 3 is not a God who “allows” the suffering. destruction and evil that is and has been on this earth.
53
You choose to pretend it all came from nothing. I believe our lives have meaning and purpose.
#38 JohnR sez: “The Marriage Protection Act defines marriage as between a man and a woman and is the law of the land, ”
At one time slavery and then Jim Crow were “the law of the land” too, don’tcha know. We all know how well THAT worked out, don’t we?
To quote Sir Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is no law at all.
@55 Lake, it’s obvious you have a sincerely held belief and I like the fact you think we should have a purpose. I mean that sincerely.
I realize we disagree about what the purpose should be or how it comes about but in general, we want the same things such as the best for humanity and the world, etc.
I assume when you say, “You choose to pretend it all came from nothing.” you’re referring to the origins of life rather than the universe but I’ve been thinking about the origins of the universe I hope you’ll take a moment to read.
We come to the conclusion of the Big Bang by “running the film backwards” from what we know about the universe, observation, models and predictions. Let us not mince words though. None of the scientists can say for definitely sure that’s exactly how it happened only that the model we have best fits the available data.
But, and here’s the real point of this, when you say came from nothing in regards to the universe, the fact is, we don’t know if there are “nothing” at the moment of inflation. What I mean is, we live INSIDE she observable universe. We cannot see “outside” it. We can speculate there is space for the universe to expand into but we really don’t know for sure and can’t know for sure. So we cannot know if something came from nothing because there may have been something or nothing. In fact, it may not even make sense to speak of “nothing” at the earliest moments of the universe just as it may not make sense to speak of time “before” the Big Bang. As far as we know, both time and space were began at the extrapolated moment.
Now this ISN’T an argument for God(s) because the god hypothesis fails to fit the facts even worse than the Big Bang and evolution. It IS an argument for making explicit our assumptions and limitations of knowledge. It IS an argument for stating with conviction what we’re sure about and stating as assumptions and hypothesis what lies beyond.
Best wishes.
54 “A loving and forgiving God, capable of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, mobility to the disabled, turning water into wine or feeding 5000 with food for 3…….”
If I had ever seen anything like this with my own eyes (Benny Hinn doesn’t count)then I may be inclined to agree with you.
54 “That is the “don’t look” approach….”
I look all the time, that is why I have this view. You can have purpose and meaning to your life without having to believe in a white bearded man frowning down at you from the clouds above. Lake’s comment about how you can get something from nothing IS an interesting question. If you say God is the Alpha and Omega and has always been, why don’t you save a logical step and apply that to the universe instead?
Just because someone tells me there was a book written long ago with stories about a purple elephant goddess who holds the sky up doesn’t mean it’s true.
Yes JimW, that is what I mean. You cannot have the “certainty” of the Divine (A loving and forgiving God, capable of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, mobility to the disabled, turning water into wine or feeding 5000 with food for 3) and then look the other way and say ‘someday you will understand’. The suffering, agony, destruction and evil that is and has been on this earth cannot be “of” that same God. If it is what would be the point? That is always my biggest problem with religion. Just accept the good God and accept the God awful?
And my worst problem is the Catholic Church. One word and so much suffering could be eliminated. One word and so much money could be made to alleviate suffering, teach and uphold humanity. And yet they withhold birth control, education on family planning, and any help for women who have to watch baby after baby die a slow death, or a beautiful girl be used and broken. They beg for money from us and sit on riches untold. It is such a 180 from what Jesus taught. Yes, entirely too much was invented by man to solidify their control and influence. I believe in God, I also believe in Jesus, but not the one man defined, edited and projected in the Bible. Which is why Lake Claytor will assure you I am not a Christian.