Thursday open thread
It was a pleasure to burn.
It was a special pleasure to see things eaten, to see things blackened and changed. With the brass nozzle in his fists, with this great python spitting its venomous kerosene upon the world, the blood pounded in his head, and his hands were the hands of some amazing conductor playing all the symphonies of blazing and burning to bring down the tatters and charcoal ruins of history.
What won’t you read today?
June 7, 2012 - 12:01 AM
Can somebody — maybe John R — explain why folks who profess to love America so much more than Obama don’t post positive messages here celebrating the fact that, say, the stock market is poised to open much HIGHER on a given day, such as this morning. I mean, John R absolutely almost never fails to spread doom and gloom when it looks like a bad opening. Why not a positive celebratory message when the news is good?
Oh, that right, that’s BAD news for the Obama haters.
Well, perhaps the stock market did so well yesterday in part because of Tuesday’s result in Wisconsin? Investors are starting to see that Americans, even in a liberal-leaning state like Wisconsin, are coming to their senses and rejecting liberalism.
Just a thought.
#1 The reason the equity indexes went up yesterday, is precisely because they are equity indexes. With the Obama administration signaling additional monetary easing, other indexes will rise to meet those inflated levels. Inflation, based on borrowing printed money is not good news. Including in the equity markets.
3. Jim – You have been talking about inflation and the low dollar for a long time and we do not have either. The market went up 1. because it went down too far and over reacted to the jobs report and 2. The Germans are starting to budge on austerity.
Interesting read at the Washington Post today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/michael-gerson-democrats-are-playing-with-dynamite/2012/06/06/gJQAwDdbJV_story.html. Key quote:
Voters are sometimes willing to accept new taxes to purchase shared public benefits such as roads or schools. But even in liberal California cities, voters are reluctant to raise tax revenues to transfer directly to the retirement benefits of a middle-class interest group.
Democrats have always played with fire, that is why we win some and lose some consistently. As for the ludicrous notion that unions are “driving a wedge”. I do not believe that to be true. The union influence is dwindling. Mainly because the right wing pols have been so good at destroying them (to get to the heart of labor you have to break its back). When the unions are gone, workers will lose ground even faster than the last 30 years.
It is true that there is no real contest when asking for help for union pensions or government workers from taxpayers. They believe the charges of “leeches” and “lazy, incompetent government workers” to the marrow and will always vote not to help or support them. Yet another reason the safety nets cannot be left to individual charity of heart too. “Root little pig or die” is very much the American ideal for many.
What is missing from the picture (and will remain so if the TP/GOP has their way) is what kind of taxpayer money goes to business, the wealthy and the already powerful in this nation.
While they benefit from the cheap labor of immigrants and low wage workers, we pay in tax refunds, health care and food stamps for them.
While they benefit from all the ways to hide income our income is documented and reported to the IRS.
While they get paid to build malls and move companies, we lose the jobs and local business.
While they get rake in the profits we build their stadiums built and help pay the players.
While they get golden parachutes and bonuses for crashing the economy, we get to pay for bail-outs and unemployment.
While they have money in the Cayman’s, we can’t afford a visit to Cuyahoga.
On and on it goes and all “behind the curtain” as they lap up the insults to the public workers “at the trough”.
Sad.
Here is some good news about Obama, at least for gdad, Scott, Richard, et al.
It seems Obama had joined a socialist third party. No surprise there considering his history.
“Recently obtained evidence from the updated records of Illinois ACORN at the Wisconsin Historical Society now definitively establishes that Obama was a member of the New Party. He also signed a “contract” promising to publicly support and associate himself with the New Party while in office.”
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/302031/obamas-third-party-history-stanley-kurtz
The New Party was deeply hostile to the mainstream Dem party and capitalism, it favored European style socialism. In 2008, candidate Obama denied to the American public about his ties to this third party.
I suspect this is a resume enhancer for some Obamanistas. I never doubted his socialist leanings.
Opinions &…..well you know. Guess you havn’t been to the grocery store lately. I say the (main) reason the markets went up was in respsonse to QE sabre rattling by the FED & Treasury. Some investors saw it as a potential stimulus, others saw the dollar arbitrage.
We can argue till the cows come home the degree (you don’t think it’s constant do you?) of inflation.
8. jim Lucas – Some things have gone up, others have gone down, average is still 1 – 2%. most investors do not believe Fed will do more stimulus at this time. There will have to be more than just a lower jobs growth to make them go back into QE, IMO. Bernanke seems to be saying the same thing. The economy is growing and Europe is holding it back. If the Euro fails, probably the fed will step in, but as MJ on Dan Casey’s blogs has said, most are already preparing for the fall of the Euro so that cost may already be factored in the market. I believe the market movement is just an overreaction to the jobs report but I can certainly be wrong.
As you state we have had similar discussins before. I think we can agree that generally speaking easing money such as we have, and might, is inflationary. The degree of course varies and the reason it is less now than what might be under such easing generally is due to the anemic economy.
That of course is another can of worms!
Coming out of today’s hearing before the House Judiciary Committee is one undeniable truth; Either Holder knew of the program from it’s incipience from wire tap requests that they (he or a high ranking associate) are required to review and approve………or they rubber stamped such wire tap requests without reading them, as required by law. Choose your poison.
Does anyone think it passes the smell test, that even in the latter case, Holder & co. would not have gone back, (by now?) and demanded to know who did know?
He is lying through his teeth. Contempt of Congress charges are coming.
Obviously the only thing that will satisfy some people is Holder’s head on a spike.
He stated unequivocally: “The notion that you would let guns walk in a firearms case is to me absurd. … It’s stupid, unacceptable, dangerous and not something the Department of Justice should ever do,” said Holder. “There is no attempt at any kind of cover-up. We’ve shared huge amounts of information.”
He cited an ongoing inspector general’s investigation and said “exactly who the people are who actually approved the technique, we’re still in the process of trying to determine.”
…Holder said for the first time that he expects to dismiss those who made decisions to let guns “walk.” “Unless there’s some truly compelling circumstance, those people will be removed from federal service,” he said.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/72356_Page2.html#ixzz1x8vDVrpn
Until the investigations are completed, this is nothing more than a Congressional “witch hunt” trying to override that process for political gain…imagine that!
Yep…that’s what he said.
He already mentioned it was the fault of some sacrificial lamb…I mean, some assistant AG that all this happened right under his nose.
A couple of stories to add to Brian’s which I’ve not yet read (sorry).
Apparently you can’t afford decent housing on a full time minimum wage job. I understand there’s a move afoot in Congress to raise the wage to $10/hr.
http://anticap.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/map-of-the-day-19/#comments
the number of full-time jobs that a household must work at the prevailing state minimum wage to afford the average two-bedroom FMR [Fair Market Rent] ranges from 1.3 jobs (Puerto Rico) to 4.4 jobs (Hawaii). In other words, in no state can an individual working full-time at the minimum wage afford a two-bedroom apartment for his or her family. Overall, there are very few places in the U.S. where even a one-bedroom unit at the FMR is affordable to someone working full-time at the minimum wage.
I’ve not had time to watch this either but for fans of Krugman, it sounds like he does a good job explaining the problems of austerity in Europe.
http://polentical.com/2012/06/07/paul-krugman-demolishes-conservatives-at-night-too/
Paul Krugman was on the British show Newsnight, demolishing two conservative British nitwits like the Hulk smashed through Loki’s Army. Sure, Krugman uses laser-like intellect and super-sharp reason, but the results are similar. Each and every argument for austerity is countered and destroyed.
More…
15 – except that austerity in Europe is a myth promoted by those who oppose true austerity.
@16 Perhaps you’re right but as I said, I’ve not yet watched it.
#7 See, even John R can’t explain why he never trumpets good news about the stock market or economy. Sad.
#2 The stock market turned up in part because of some positive news in Europe and China, Other Rick. The market doesn’t care a whit about who is governor in Wisconsin.
Jim Lucas – that is the point isn’t it. Too improve the economy with monetary policy since Congress refuses to act. So far, in spite pf what you and 89hoo claimed a year ago, the monetary policy has worked just as Bernanke has said. Too bad Congress will not listen.
89hoo – I told you a year ago that austerity would destroy Europe and you disagreed. Now you are saying they just aren’t austere enough. Good grief.
#20 Our economy is improving? Massive additional debt is sound monetary policy? Even the dems in Wisconsin know better.
21. Independent economists know we are on the right track. You need only look at Europe to see what austerity has done to their economy. Its time for you and 89hoo to fess up that you have been wrong the last two years on monetary policy and gov spending. Short term Obama has been correct in spending, long-term Obama has been correct in making cuts. The GOP idea of cutting has killed the states and has hurt our economy. Fortunately, the Fed and Obama found ways to get around the so nothing House and have succeeded in keeping our economy growing. had he let the GOP do what they wanted, we would be in worse shape than Europe.
10. The reason the monetary policies did not cause inflation has more to do with the banking crisis, the need for higher reserves, and the loss of value caused by the recession. Bernanke recognized this and worked to replace the loss of value, those of you not recognizing the difference in this economy and that of say the eighties have simply been wrong. Different problems require different answers and instead the GOP has wanted the same ole same ole that was the wrong strategy for today’s problems.
Richard…we’ve gone ’round with this before. I fully understand the “foot on the accelerator….foot on the brake” functions of monetary policy.
There is a time & place for both. But as to stimulation, “accellerator” policy, it is an adjustment, not a long term philosophy.
Every dollar spent by the government is a dollar pulled out of the private sector, whether taxed or borrowed. As a short term stimulus this is sometimes sound policy, in the longer run you get what we have now.
How long do you suggest we keep down this road, with the results we are getting?
The only thing letting this continue with less damage, debt & inflation, than the norm is the weak economy (which begs the question)and low interest rates. Normally, low interest rates would stimulate the economy, but not this one. What they are doing is destroying the savings, annuities & insurance policies of millions of Americans.
To #22 (Richard) and #24 (Jim Lucas): Question for Richard: Why have the countries in Europe embarked on austerity measures? Was the purpose to stimulate their economies? The answer is “No”. The austerity measures weren’t in response to an economic crisis. They were in response to a BORROWING crisis.
Several governments (with Greece being the prime example) had borrowed gobs of money in the past and were borrowing more and more at an accelerating rate. Lenders started balking, refusing to lend unless these governments [1] paid exorbitant interest rates or [2] took austerity measures to reduce their rate of borrowing. These measures were forced on the over-borrowing countries. They had no choice.
The same fate could happen to the US. Right now we’re benefiting from the fact that lending to Europe looks riskier. If they get their act together while we keep borrowing 9% of GDP, we could see the markets suddenly turn against us also. This is why we need to start reducing our borrowing now, so that we can do it at a more gradual pace that causes little harm, as opposed to the “shock” pace that our creditors might demand. [And yes, I know that the Federal Reserve could backfill if lenders quit. But then they lose their ability to control inflation entirely.]
Jim Lucas is right. Stimulus can help when the economy is actively imploding, but it’s not supposed to be “normal operating procedure”. Please remember that the economy quit shrinking three years ago!! You yourself recently said that the economy is improving nicely. And yet the President called for more borrowing-funded stimulus just a few days ago, this time via the JOBS Act. When does it stop?
My guess is that it “stops” when political partisans quit screaming that the sky is falling and allow for the slow incremental recovery that is all we can manage. Obama’s actions are in direct proportion to those whining that there is no recovery, there are no jobs, there is no hope. If he ignores those cries, he is “out of touch”, if he tries to respond to them, he is “making it worse” and only when he is defeated will anyone from the right ever admit the truth. Oh who am I kidding, they won’t admit it then either. What enriches the top has always been their concern and nothing has changed that.
Romney’s policy and the Ryan budget ideas, will also increase the debt and deficit, but no one talks about that. Romney’s policies will not create jobs as tax cuts never have and never will. When business sits on its hands due to a lack of demand for their product and their demand for Obama to go, there is no hope. The sooner they have their country back, the sooner this whole argument will be “much ado about nothing” all over again.
#26 “My guess is that it “stops” when political partisans quit screaming that the sky is falling and allow for the slow incremental recovery that is all we can manage. Obama’s actions are in direct proportion to those whining that there is no recovery, there are no jobs, there is no hope.”
“Romney’s policy and the Ryan budget ideas, will also increase the debt and deficit, but no one talks about that. Romney’s policies will not create jobs as tax cuts never have and never will. When business sits on its hands due to a lack of demand for their product and their demand for Obama to go, there is no hope.”
Care to support any of this with other than your, admitted, “guess”?
Taxcuts never have /never will create jobs?? Then why did Obama and the dems extend the Bush era taxrate cuts? Why did Obama and the dems call for prolonging the cut to social security/payroll taxes if not to spur the economy and thus create jobs? Why did Clinton candidly call for the extension of the taxrate cuts before he “backtracked”?
Why , when the 2003 taxrate cuts were fully phased in, did the unemployment rate trend downward for 4 years? Why did the economy (GDP) grow from $11T to $14T. Why did revenues to the fed gov rise from $1.7T to $2.55T in the same period?
What have you offered that says it would not, Jim Lucas? Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Mitt Romney is claiming that, if he is elected, he will start to put out the “prairie fire of debt” sweeping the nation.
But his tax plan, in its current form, would instead feed the flames.
Joseph Stiglitz: Romney’s Plan Will ‘Increase Likelihood Of A Recession’
Would Romney Be Another Bill Clinton or Another George W. Bush?
Paul Ryan’s Budget Plan: More Big Tax Cuts for the Rich
#29 Any personal ideas on today’s macro economic situation?
To #26 (Sandi): “Obama’s actions are in direct proportion to those whining“? Oh, wow, I hope that’s not true. A president’s actions should be aimed at the well-being of our country, not based on addressing “squeaky wheels”. To do otherwise is to cede control to the whiners.
Seriously Brian? I’m pretty sure we already ceded control to the whiners in ’08.
20 – I had high hopes for the austerity in Europe, Rich, particularly in the UK. But look at the numbers – there has only been a mention of austerity and nothing more. Like me cutting out a cup of coffee at McDonald’s and calling it austerity, while I add three lattes from Starbucks. That’s not austerity no matter what you call it.