In support of gay rights and free speech
By Frederick Fuller
Many Americans consider the First Amendment to be composed of words that fell from the lips of God, assuming God has lips. Freedom of speech, assembly, to believe as you wish. Whoa!
That last one is a problem, especially when Dan Cathy, president of Chick-fil-A and a fundamental Christian, expresses his belief.
Fuller lives in Roanoke County.
August 6, 2012 - 6:16 AM
“I do not believe the characters of the New Testament existed, but are caricatures of people who might have lived in the first century”.
Jesus is a character from the New Testament. He never existed?
Why is this year 2012?
BTW, your scientific hypothesis has not been proven. Ethnicity has been proven to be genetic and sexual persuasion has not. Equating the 2 shows this author only looked for “facts” that supported what was already believed.
#1 Tyr, Odin, Thor, Freya and Saturn never existed? Why are they Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday? Not to mention Janus, Mars and Juno.
I find Mr. Fuller’s comments very refreshing and in fact they carry quite a bit of merit. It’s even more refreshing that they seem to be on par with my own beliefs.
Bob H…the Bible is a collection of writings by MEN. The characterizations of those writings may serve your fundimental needs, especially the ones that fit a particular argument at a particular time; however, the sources can not be any more proven than disproved.
As for your comment about sexual persuasion not being proven as a genetic trait…it has neither been proven nor disproven. Frankly, if you’re so predisposed to believing that God created everything and everything he does is wonderful, then how can you belittle the existence of homosexuality since God created us all?
Surely you don’t doubt God, do you?
In truth, “sexual persuasion” has been proven to be genetic to a degree that it is accepted as fact by a great many people. That is about as proven as science can be on some things.
I disagree that this is solely a “free speech” issue. I think when you use your money to help a cause, that is an action beyond free speech and either deserves whatever push-back people want to give it within the bounds of propriety. Choosing to patronize a business is an equal freedom and right.
I think that most people do believe homosexuals are born with their sexual orientation. And I think more and more people are seeing that denying same sex couples the right to the protections and privileges of marriage is wrong. They also have the right to say so to those who believe otherwise.
Although I would never own a Taurus, I agree with everything Mr. Fuller said.
Will,
Sin did not originate with God, it originated with Man. God didn’t make anyone gay. Why would He? Why would He make someone gay and then tell them to be fruitful and multiply? It makes no sense. The Bible was divinely inspired. How do you “disprove” that which has never been proven?
Will, how do you explain the Vermont mom? She was a lesbian, and went straight. Huh?
Sandi,
There has been no conclusive proof at all about sexuality being genetic. The problem is, they find plenty of gays who don’t have the “gene” and plenty of straights that do have it.
It is merely distancing responsibilty for behavior from the person practicing it. I have friends who told me they were “born that way”. The fact is that NO ONE remembers being born. I don’t remember choosing my right hand over my left but clearly I did before I can remember doing so, as there is no genetic cause for handedness and only humans display that trait.
Let us all hope that such a gene never is discovered for sexuality as we don’t need another excuse for aborted fetuses!
Fuller’s letter is very well done.
Especially when he says:
“I’m straight and loving it. Many of my best friends are gay and loving it, and if they want to be married, I’ll apply for best man, or matron of honor, whichever. I’ll stand with them.
Cathy will not stand with them, and I support him and stand with him because he has a right to believe and to express what he believes. To attempt to destroy his business because of what he believes and says is wrong.”
Bingo.
“The Bible was divinely inspired. How do you “disprove” that which has never been proven?”
How very ironic.
I am not arguing “conclusive” in the anti-gay community. Like Climate Science, Evolution, and God, I am comfortable with my position on genetic sexuality and I am the one who will answer for it. I cannot say it is “a gene” but I believe it is innate/genetic.
I think it is total sophistry to claim it is remotely “distancing responsibilty for behavior from the person practicing it“. I find that insulting.
Why do you so readily accept “handedness”?
As if the slippery slope of abortion will be worse with another “excuse”?
It would take an act of God for a fast food joint to go out of business in this country.
I agree that Mr. Fuller makes some good points, but I think anyone thinking this can, would or will “destroy” his business must have missed the Fluke episode recently. There is no such thing as that even being a possibility.
As far as I know, I didn’t choose to be straight. I just am, it wasn’t a conscious choice.
That’s all I need to know about whether or not sexual orientation is something that we’re all born with.
Kristen has never heard of Kenney Burgers, Mr. Moes, Burger Chef, Kenny Roger’s roasters, Lindy’s, or any other number of fast food places that are no longer in Roanoke.
Kristen,
The book of Job is documented to be over 4,000 years old, one of the oldest in the Bible. In that book, Job describes the earth as being held on a string. That was best he could describe the earth and it’s orbit, that he couldn’t comprehend the force of gravity of the sun.
How did Job know that? There were no telescopes. God showed him. Divinely inspired writing…..
To me, the core of the matter isn’t totally about free speech…it’s about being able to respect someone’s personal beliefs.
Cathy said what he believes in and that should be that. He didn’t badmouth gays…he simply said he doesn’t believe in their lifestlye.
But no, gays don’t like it and are riled up over it. Instead of saying “OK, that’s what he believes…let’s move on” they have to show their intolerance of it.
The ironic part is that gays demand tolerance from others. Don’t like gays? Too bad. Does “We’re here, we’re queer…live with it!” ring a bell?
I honestly think that if gays stepped back from their “in your face” approach they would be better accepted for who they are. Demanding that I or anyone else accept your lifestyle isn’t the way to go.
#10 Have you ever heard of Rally’s, Kenny’s, A&W, DQ, Church’s, Arby’s, Treacher’s, HO JO’s, Big Boy’s, Berrigan’s, Steak & Ale, Lums, Pizza Inn, Chi-Chi’s, LJS….many, many (many) more. And 20% of even the big boys fail.
And yes there are some DQ’s, Arby’s & LJS still around, local franchises, hanging on.
15 I’ve seen a lot of those franchises in other places…
…but I think Kristen was trying to make a joke…
Without bothering to google every name on your list, Jim Lucas, at a glance Arbys is alive and well and thriving. Big Boys still exist. Pretty sure Chi-Chi’s and HoJo’s were sit-down operations. I have no idea what LJS is, but there are lots of places out there named “Kennys”…what on earth is your point?
The goal was never to drive ChikFilA out of business. As long as Americans continue to be the most obese population in the history of man, deep fried fast food chicken will thrive. Yay us!
Oh BobH, just saw your post. Kenny Roger’s Roasters, really?
“I honestly think that if gays stepped back from their “in your face” approach they would be better accepted for who they are. ”
Really? Replace “gays” with “evangelical Christians”.
#9 “I am not arguing “conclusive” in the anti-gay community. Like Climate Science, Evolution, and God, I am comfortable with my position on genetic sexuality and I am the one who will answer for it. I cannot say it is “a gene” but I believe it is innate/genetic.”
Not a gene, but “innate/genetic”. Must be the “innate” modifier.
What is your “position on genetic sexuality”? How does it relate (“like”) to “Climate Science, Evolution, and God”?
Bob H…
I respectfully disagree with position that anything in the Bible is “Devine” intervention.
ALL of the books in the Bible were written by MEN. Men who as human beings were just as susceptible to human prejudices of their time as we are today.
Men who were supposed to be of “Devine” providence could have just as easily used their providence for their own purposes as anyone else.
It’s a great scapegoat to say that anytime that anything goes against “Devine” providence, then it’s man just going against God. Frankly, I think it’s a little to convenient an out for the religion.
#18 – “Replace “gays” with “evangelical Christians””.
We’re not talking about evangelical Christians at the moment, Kristen. We’re talking about gays demanding tolerance and acceptance, yet have none for others.
#17 The point was/is, you make statements of “fact”, not knowing what you are talking about.
Michael, it is not remotely true that ALL Cathy did was express his personal beliefs!
He willingly put himself into the middle of the argument and there are no two ways about that:
“we’re inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at him and say we know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage. And I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude that thinks we have the audacity to redefine what marriage is all about.”
This is on top of donating millions of dollars to groups dead set on fighting against gay equal rights and most especially marriage.
You cannot say that he simply “said what he believes in and that should be that“. And I cannot imagine anyone thinking “He didn’t badmouth gays“. I think he most certainly did, and their supporters too. The Westboro Church protesters also believe it is asking for God’s judgement and people consider them a hate group.
@18 Kristen, the point is more easily made if you replace “gays” with “women”.
I keep hearing that Chic-fil-A gave money to anti-gay organizations, but nobody names them. I did some research and could only find one reference, but that one keeps popping up for attribution. They cite the Marriage and Family Foundation, and then have the chutzpah to say that it is “certified anti-gay” by the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization that was chastised by a U.S. Attorney General for that very “certification.” He called it “reprehensible.” I can assure you, that in today’s American society, that if these contributions were of concern to the gay community, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN KNOWN LONG BEFORE NOW!
Sandi: If giving money to an individual or organization goes beyond free speech…where do you stand on contributions to President Obama, and his campaign? If we can believe the rest of your blog, we have the right to push back against the Obama run for office within the bounds of propriety, and you should laud us for the effort.
#23 Not only has Cathy inserted himself into the middle of the argument, but he’s made no secret of the fact that he’s donated considerable sums of moolah to a couple of anti-gay hate groups, namely the Family “Research” Council and the so-called National Organization for Marriage. You can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps.
Lastly: I can’t seem to get an answer to this puzzle. If you don’t believe in God, then you must not believe He was, or is, responsible for anything attributed to Him. That being the case, what is your problem with the things you say He had no hand in bringing about? By the way, that Jesus existed is supported by many non-religious writings. Check out the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus.
#25, first, the SPLC is one of the leading organizations in the world in tracking and fighting Hate Groups. The fact that one AG bad-mouthed it doesn’t undo its long history of excellent work. Second, it has been known for quite some time by many people that stay informed about such things that certain companies have been making such contributions, which is why many folks, myself included, have never eaten at a Hate-Fil-A and never will. You are free to give your money to whomever you like, even if they work to deny rights to American citizens.
Will,
Transcribed by men, Words coming from God. How do you explain how Job knew the earth hangs on “nothing” (Job 26:7)?
Michael, the gay people I know personally are nothing but lovely and kind. I have no idea what you mean when you say that they have no “tolerance” for others. If you find you have problems with gay people in general, look to yourself. And if I feel like talking about evangelican Christians – the source of the issue here -I will.
ScottM, ok fair point.
JimLucas, you per usual missed the point. Hoo got it. Go find a dollar menu and relax why don’t you.
BobH, I think you’re confused on the defintion of “proven”.
Not confused on the definition of proven at all Kristen.
The word is in my dictionary, along with the word genetical, which you claimed wasn’t even a word.
Suppose you explain how a 4,000 year old book’s author knew that the world hangs on nothing.
Go ahead, I would love to see you explain that.
@30 Bob H…
Perhaps very much in the same way that Aristarchus of Samos did somewhere around the 3rd Century BC. He made an observation.
It’s just way too convenient on the part of some religious writer to say that he (and I’ve often wondered why only men were allowed to write books that are included in the Bible) received some kind of Devine intervention to have such a revelation.
#31 – “I have no idea what you mean when you say that they have no “tolerance” for others.”
Then you truly are clueless. Have you never seen gays protesting against anyone they see as a threat to their lifestyle?
@21 Michael…
I don’t know if you’ve ever found yourself to be the subject of (either collectively or personally) of the kinds of hate filled and vitriolic remarks that the gay community has been subjected to for decades. Frankly, I hope you never do.
Think of it this way…you’ve seen what happens to a wild animal after they’ve been trapped into a corner and continually taunted and abused…they fight back.
Well, we’ve been cornered and abused to the point that our passivity has expired and now we’ve decided to take a more forceful stand about our lives, rights and freedoms. People like Fred Phelps exist all over and we will fight back against that kind of treatment of all people.
The fact that my partner and I have a loving and caring relationship with each other should have absolutely no influence on your ability to be in a loving and committed relationship with your wife (presuming that you are married) nor should it have any influence on your collective ability to procreate. If it does, the the problem is not with the committed gay couple, but with you.
Understand that when I’m saying “you”, I mean a collective you. I’m not necessarily singling you out personally.
Have you never seen Christians protesting against anyone they see as a threat to their lifestyle?
I am fairly certain it is in the American DNA to protest against anyone or anything they see as a threat to their lifestyle, beliefs, or politics. That is not only not unique to the gay community, it is what is expected for change to happen or for a bully to be noticed.
Will,
I won’t go into a dissertation of the history of the Bible. Certainly the books that were canonized by the Catholic church 1,600 years ago were not, exclusively, all of the history of God’s acts or communications with humankind. I accept that what was selected for the “Bible” was those books that the then Catholic church wanted included. That doesn’t take away from their divinity, but it does take away from our ability to look at the non-canonized books that were not included because many of them were tossed since they were not included.
Certainly Mary wrote Gospels and I, for 1, wish they would have been included because they would have given a unique perspective on My Lord and Savior that cannot be obtained through male observations alone.
Women were the subject of many Biblical stories and many rose to incredible prominence. Esther, Ruth, and even Deborah rose to be a judge and was a prophetess of God. Sarai and Abram begat a whole race! I suspect there were books that were excluded from canonization because the authors were women. But that doesn’t make what we have left, the Bible, any less divinely inspired.
As for your friend, Aristarchus, the Vatican has some of his works. Perhaps he wasn’t aware that God was leading him to the conclusions he was making. Interesting that some great scientists have spiritual back grounds, like Pasteur. Even Darwin is buried at Westminster Abbey!
BobH, Job also thought the earth had “ends”. And (drumroll)…Job talks quite about about “unicorns”. Explain that one, please.
Oh right…you don’t have to. Because it’s wrong. More to the point, Revelations has the earth having “4 corners”. The Bible is full of scientifically incorrect – and actually PROVEN incorrect – bad information.
But most rational people accept the Bible for what it is.
Michael, I’m going to go way out on a limb here and say that I don’t consider people advocating for their own rights to be the same as expressing “intolerance” towards others. It’s ludicrous. People in this country get to petition their government to affirm their constitutional rights and address any grievances they might have. Yes, even gays.
Your beef is with the Bill of Rights. And yes, it even applies to gays.
@37 Bob H…
You’ve proven my point better than I could Bob.
The Catholic Church selected books that they wanted included in a volume called the Bible. While their inclusion in the Bible doesn’t take away any divinity, it most certainly doesn’t add any if such even existed in the first place.
It is MAN’s interpretation of events and circumstances. Men then were no less infallible than they are today.
Who decided then what was right to include and what wasn’t? If the decision maker(s) didn’t agree with what was written, did they then toss the writing?
I see way too many holes to accept it without question or suspicion.
I hear what you’re saying, Will, but my opinion still stands. I think gays would gain a lot more ground if they spent more time working to get people to understand and accept them, and less time with their “in your face” attitude.
If people don’t like your lifestyle, and you want them to change their ways, telling them that they HAVE to accept it is not gonna work. In fact, doing so probably only makes things worse.
Look, I’ve had many gay friends throughout my life and they were great people. I don’t dislike gays. What I dislike is how they relentlessly demand for people to accept their lifestyle with no regard (or acceptance) of religious beliefs.
Wanna make a straight person that doesn’t believe in gay marriage happy? Say, “Fine, I respect your beliefs” and walk away.
@41 Michael…
I appreciate your perspective and would hope that you can appreciate mine.
For me, I’ve been on this earth for the better part of 56 years now. I’ve seen a lot of my gay friends treated in ways that no human being should be treated and despite what some say…it was for nothing more than being gay. That’s simply wrong on every level imaginable.
I think it could be said with a high degree of certainty that up until the Stonewall Riots of 1969, gays and lesbians had been sitting pretty quietly in the closet not causing much commotion.
But that event, albeit small in comparison to others in the more recent past was indeed the straw that broke the camel’s back. We weren’t in anyone’s face up until that point…but we were backed into a corner and you know what happens then.
We come out fighting to defend and protect our own. It was abut that time that we realized that we were not second class citizens and that we are in fact valuable contributors to the economies of the places we live. To continue to sit idlely by and continue to be treated in a discriminatory fashion was and continues to be wrong.
Personally, I don’t want to take the word marriage to describe what me and my partner have. Frankly, it’s much more than just a marriage. I’m fine with leaving the straight community with that word.
But…and hers the real rub for me…I don’t believe under any circumstance does the state or federal govern,ent have a right based on “religious” standards to deny gays the same benefits granted to straight couples.
My life revolves around my partner, my family, my friends, my coworkers and my home. It’s no different from anyone else…but be assured that I’d fight anyone who would try to harm any aspect of my life. …I’ll come out like a mad momma bear to protect them. That’s human nature and I don’t apologize for that.
#42 – I do respect your perspective, Will. And that’s the key…respect.
There’s WAY too little of it.
How exactly, do we show “respect for a perspective”? By merely saying words, “Fine, I respect your beliefs” and walking away? How then does that change anything? How do people who have been denied what they and many millions more agree are their civil and legal rights, privileges and responsibilities gain what they seek by your method Michael? How much longer do they have to “wait”?
Obviously for those who believe that particular old Jewish law given by the Pharisees is sacrosanct above all others, they are never going to agree to any grant of the civil, and legal rights, privileges and responsibilities regarding anything even resembling marriage to the gay community. That is a gap that cannot be bridged with respect for their beliefs and walking away and I remain, as a soon to be 54 year old heterosexual, unwilling to wait, to ask them to wait or to respect people who use the Bible as a weapon. I don’t even bother asking you to respect that. It just is.
#44 “How exactly, do we show “respect for a perspective”? By merely saying words, “Fine, I respect your beliefs” and walking away? How then does that change anything? How do people who have been denied what they and many millions more agree are their civil and legal rights, privileges and responsibilities gain what they seek by your method Michael? How much longer do they have to “wait”?”
Right, the only way to respect one another is to agree (with you).
Jim…
When passive action fails to achieve the desired result, what then is your solution? We tried decades of silence and it gained us nothing.
I’ve heard for years that if you believe strongly enough in something, you should fight for it. Does that only apply to what a select few say we should fight for?
#44 – “How exactly, do we show “respect for a perspective”? By merely saying words, “Fine, I respect your beliefs” and walking away?”
Yep, Sandi, that’s exactly how it works.
Your POV Michael is completely unacceptable for more reasons than I care enough to name. Fortunately, our constitution renders it irrelevant. Keep privately stewing about all the gays and blacks and minorities who insist on enjoying the same rights the rest of us enjoy.
So you are only going to answer one question Michael, and Jim Lucas is going to answer only with an insult? Way to problem solve. I’ll stick with my plan, thanks.
Will, my point in my #45, in response to #44, is not that people should not fight for what they believe. You know that’s not my perspective.
My point is that respect is not just a matter of having others agree with you, and was not directed at you. It’s easy to “respect” those who agree with you.
#48 Same old “bigot” malarky. Just when did this thread speak to other than the gay issue? (You left out native Americans and left handed people).
#49 What question (and what insult)?
#48 Please, name a few. Our Constitution makes someones’ POV irrelevant? Please Kristen, explain. Thanks.
#48 – Unacceptable, Kristen?
Too bad.
Your reply proves my point.
Michael, does it occur to you that you are asking for tolerance from the people who have been discriminated against, for the people who have done the discriminating? Or, put another way, you are mad at our intolerance of your intolerance? How does that work exactly?
Sandi, it is about as logical as it is for you to demand that people be tolerant of what you beleive while you are completely intolerant of any belief different from your own.Tolerance is a two way street. It shouldn’t devolve into a school yard bout of “you did it first.”
And yet it does. Yes, I am very well aware that I am intolerant of those intolerant of my tolerance. I am even more intolerant of those who support discrimination because of their intolerance of my tolerance.
The purpose here should be a discussion, not twisting everyone’s words, but damned if I can’t play too.
Chuck, what you said, strikes me that maybe you all truly do not understand this issue for many of us. I do not “demand that people be tolerant of what [I} beleive”. I am not interested in winning by converting. I argue against the intolerance of gay rights. Rights are not up for a popularity vote. I don’t expect any of you to ever embrace the truth as I see it. I expect to win the same way we often have, the intolerant kickin’ and screamin’ all the way to a legal or legislative decision that bars discrimination. Then, like inter-racial, inter-cultural, inter-faith marriages, the haters will remain free to hate just not free to discriminate any longer. That is all, I work to fix the rules, not hearts.
#56 “And yet it does. Yes, I am very well aware that I am intolerant of those intolerant of my tolerance. I am even more intolerant of those who support discrimination because of their intolerance of my tolerance.”
I’ve tried to understand this. Keep getting dizzy.
#56 Ever heard the phrase “Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins”, Chuck? People are free to be as intolerant of others as they wish, and are equally free to express said intolerance until the cows come home all blue in the face. However, when they try to have this intolerance of theirs codified into civil law so it actually has a negative effect on the lives of others, then they cross the line, and THAT’S what’s got us so peeved about Cathy and his ilk. By their deeds you shall know them.