Tuesday open thread
It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, “Peace, Peace,” but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms!
What does the gale from the north bring to your ears today?
October 30, 2012 - 1:25 AM
Just when you thought this campaign couldn’t get any more negative – witness the exploitation of elderly people in this vile, new Michael Moore-produced MoveOn.org campaign video (language warning):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f17fWth3YgA
Fits in nicely with this one, exploiting children:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5fH3np1jsw
Desperate, and disgusting.
#1 That was absolutely hysterical! Come on OR, find your sense of humor. Which is really more vile, this ad that all of 33,000 people have seen on Youtube, or a mainstream ad filled with lies (from either side) that tens of millions see?
Shortly after June’s derecho-produced power outage, there were numerous calls that our power lines be buried. Such as the following: http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/letters/wb/311576
I fear that the residents of New York City will be discovering the disadvantages of underground power lines. Even after the salt water is pumped out, leaving the cable insulation coated with conductive residue (such as sea water will leave behind) can hasten insulation breakdown: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_treeing.
3 – Brian, forgive my ignorance (it’s not my field), but are those problems primarily in coastal areas? It’s doubtful that any flooding we have in the Roanoke Valley would be salt water. Are there other problems (aside from salt water) that we would have to worry about?
My sense of humor is fine, thanks. And I certainly don’t take this seriously. I just fail to see any real humor or value in it. Of course, it is Michael Moore after all…
Obama’s base loves it, I’m sure. This, the ad with the children, and the one comparing voting for Obama with her first time…they play well with many on the left.
But stuff like this can turn off many moderates and independents. In a tight race like this one, their votes are critical. I question the wisdom of releasing ads like this, especially this close to the election. But I hope the Obama suppoters continue to do so, and show us just how low they will go.
Does anyone know how it would voting work if and probably power is not back on in states, like NY NJ and any other. What if people cant get to the polls or voting machines down?
Just curious.
Great quote, from a great Virginian.
Now Romney is claiming that he doesn’t want to eliminate FEMA. So, which Romney should we believe? The ultra-conservative Romney from the GOP primaries or the moderate-for-moment Romney playing it safe so close the election?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1012/83001.html#ixzz2AnNF6iL0
#6 – Didn’t Michelle encourage people to vote early in case the toilet was clogged?
You know what really turns off many moderates and independents?
The right wing lunacy that pretends it makes sense.
The weather-vane campaign that has so far stuck to only one principle, less taxes for the wealthiest.
The lack of credibility, stability and new ideas on the right. SOSO, been there, living the results of that.
The self serving offense decrying negative ads and attacks while offering negative ads and attacking.
This nation may or may not choose to replace Obama, but there is no good reason to vote for Romney and that is why this meme of Obama’s failures, Obama’s cover-ups, Obama’s lies, and Obama’s policy being wrong is pushed from daylight till dark. Romney has nothing to offer except to the ABO crowd. Hate is an ugly thing. It has made them dishonest, insulting, divisive and just plain forgetful too.
Don’t pretend there is a high ground being occupied by the right, there isn’t.
9 – That’s only if you’re planning to vote for Goode or one of the other lesser knowns…because that’s basically flushing your vote down the toilet, anyway!
Elections are the province of the states. Ask the state what it plans to do. My guess is they will desperately try to hold some kind of election, even without power, but I doubt any has a true contingency (i.e. paper ballots). We are not big on planning or back up apparently.
8 – Either one is better than the Obama who claimed Benghazi was sparked by an up-to-then unheard of You Tube video…then perpetuated that lie for two weeks before admitting it was a coordinated terrorist attack. And the Obama that refuses to answer questions about it now.
#10 – “Don’t pretend there is a high ground being occupied by the right, there isn’t.”
After watching the Michael Moore/MoveOn ad, it sure is much higher than that being occupied by the left.
10 – “The lack of credibility, stability and new ideas on the right.”
Lack of credibility, you say? On the heels of the still unfolding Benghazi fiasco…credibility has gone out the window as far as the current administration is concerned.
As for new ideas – what is Obama going to do different than he did in his first term? Because I’ve heard nothing new or different…and his first term has been an absolute disaster.
The economy was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.
Iraq was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.
Jobs were an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.
Our image abroad was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.
The Auto Industry was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.
Our war on terror was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.
Our health care system was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.
You may continue to blame him for what he has not yet turned around, as if 4 years can fix 30, but you are way, way off base to keep blaming him for the things that have improved and will continue to do so.
A campaign that sticks to the high ground and does not answer negative ads, fight back against attacks and refuse to lay down for distorted views will only lose. People SAY they want such campaigns and such candidates and such leaders, but the polls do not bear that out. There is no “high ground” in this campaign. I concede that, which is why I didn’t claim it by pretending my candidate of choice was offering his bus for the aid effort.
Romney keeps talking about cutting out tax loopholes as part of his economic plan but refuses to identify any specifics. I wonder if this one would be on the chopping block?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-29/romney-avoids-taxes-via-loophole-cutting-mormon-donations.html
“The economy was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Really? Hmmm…it costs more to fill my tank and put food on the table.
“Iraq was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Tell that to the Iraqis who have died since we left.
“Jobs were an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” There’s a boatload of unemployed people who would beg to differ with you.
“Our image abroad was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Then why is Europe laughing at us?
“The Auto Industry was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” No, he gave money to his union buddies.
“Our war on terror was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Four people who recently died in Libya might see it differently…too bad they can’t.
“Our health care system was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Then why are so many states fighting it?
#17 “A campaign that sticks to the high ground…”
Obama’s campaign staff wrote the book on dirty campaigning, Sandi. Exposing sealed court records to destroy your opponent may be acceptable moral behavior to a Democrat, but it isn’t to me.
“WND is preparing an affidavit for the Federal Elections Commission and the FBI on the illegal donation accepted by the Obama campaign”
http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/obama-accepts-osama-bin-laden-donations/
I guess you could say, this is the “gift” that keeps on giving.
Discouraging commentary from the Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/10/air-war
See also http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/290-width/images/print-edition/20121027_USC339.png
This year, only 1 in 5 of pro-Romney ads has been positive. And only 1 in 7 of pro-Obama ads.
“The economy was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Really? Hmmm…it costs more to fill my tank and put food on the table.
– The President has little control over the prices of gasoline or food. Commodities like these are priced by the market. There are things that Congress and the President can do policy-wise to influence prices like corn subsidies and fuel economy that have a long-term effect but in the short term, not really. Isn’t this something that conservatives want anyway? Free market principles with no regulation.
“Iraq was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Tell that to the Iraqis who have died since we left.
– People have been fighting in Iraq for 1,000s of years. I’m glad our troops aren’t among them anymore.
“Jobs were an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” There’s a boatload of unemployed people who would beg to differ with you
– Yes, but there are a lot less of them now than there were in 2008. And every month that number goes down.
“Our image abroad was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Then why is Europe laughing at us?
– Do you have any proof of this or are you just speculating?
“The Auto Industry was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” No, he gave money to his union buddies. –
– This myth has been thoroughly debunked multiple times. It isn’t worth my time to argue about it.
“Our war on terror was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Four people who recently died in Libya might see it differently…too bad they can’t.
– The major leaders or Al-Queada are dead or in custody. Hundreds of terrorists have been killed or captured. Bin Laden is dead. That’s a win. And continuing to use the Libya attacks and those murders as political fodder is absolutely shameful.
“Our health care system was an “absolute disaster”, Obama has turned it around.” Then why are so many states fighting it?
– Most states aren’t. There are a few GOP Governors who are putting party ideology ahead of helping their citizens and that’s unfortunate. The ACA is the law of the land and they can cry all they want about it but they’ll come around eventually. Citizens who have already benefited from the ACA are happy with it.
To #4 (89Hoo): It doesn’t have to be salt water to cause problems (though salt water is worse). Even fresh water that’s mildly contaminated with dirt can cause problems. At work we regularly clean high-voltage gloves and insulated extension poles/ladders to ensure that mildly conductive dirt from somewhere doesn’t cause hazardous electrical tracking.
That’s the nice thing about using air as an insulation material (which we do for most “medium-voltage” 13 kV lines in this area and almost all “high-voltage” 200+ kV lines). It doesn’t get contaminated or wear out. As long as something doesn’t knock conductors out of position, things basically last forever. And even if above-ground cables do get knocked over, they’re much easier and quicker to fix. Utilities in NYC are going to spend LOTS more money fixing things up after Sandy than our utilities did after the derecho.
#23 – “And continuing to use the Libya attacks and those murders as political fodder is absolutely shameful.”
No, Dave, what’s shameful is the way Obama refuses to come clean about what happened. Defending him for it…THAT’S shameful.
“Most states aren’t.”
Last I heard, it was 27 states fighting it. Unless you think there are 57 states like you-know-who, then your statement is incorrect.
Thanks Brian.
Michael, for clarification, as I should have known how words are parsed here, “turned it around” is not the same as fixed all our problems. Those are two different statements.
We long ago established that the President does not set gas prices.
Your concern for the Iraqi people is touching, but WE are not still over there dying and being maimed by the score.
There does remain a “boatload of unemployed people” but the jobs hemorrhage due to the economic crash that was raging in 2009 has stopped and we are adding jobs again.
IDK why Europe is laughing at anything, but they are not cheering for a Romney win and that I know. Obama is still held in high esteem in Europe.
You may never believe this, but there was much more to saving the US auto industry than the “union buddies”. Much more.
Dead people often disagree with me. But again, turning something around is not the same as ending all conflict, terrorism and gaining whirled peace.
Virtually all of the states fighting “Obamacare” are run by TP/R Governors, I’ll let you figure out why they are “fighting it”.
Michael is showing his age or his bitter partisanship. No way on earth that “Obama’s campaign staff wrote the book on dirty campaigning“. That quite dubious honor goes back to “The Southern Strategy”, Lee Atwater and Karl Rove. All roads lead to those three in modern history. All. Just as all roads on the divisive nature of Congress lead to Newt Gingrich. Facts remain facts no matter what side of the aisle you occupy. They just do.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/books/phillips-southern.pdf
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/atwater/view/
You plan to vote for the Plutocracy and you call us “shameful” for defending the President until we have reason not to? Really?
I believe a “WND affidavit” is not worth the paper it is printed on.
There was a question here the other day about Romney’s views on abortion or something. I wanted to pass this along as its written by someone who used to identify as pro-life but has stopped calling herself that. Not being religious, I have to rely on surrogates like this who’ve experienced the pro-life movement from the inside.
I’ve not read the whole thing yet but it looks promising.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html
….As a child, teen, and college student, I sincerely believed that personhood, life, rights, and the soul all began at fertilization. I was honestly opposed to abortion because I believed it was murder. It had nothing to do with being anti-woman or anti-sex. I thought that the pro-life movement writ large – the major pro-life organizations, leaders, and politicians – were similarly genuine. I thought that they, like myself, simply wanted to “save the lives of unborn babies.”
I have come to the conclusion that I was a dupe.
What I want to share here is how I came to this realization. And if you, reader, are one of those who opposes abortion because you believe it is murder and you want to save the lives of unborn babies, well, I hope to persuade you that the pro-life movement is not actually your ally in this, that you have been misled, and that you would be more effective in decreasing the number of abortions that occur if you were to side with pro-choice progressives. If this is you, please hear me out before shaking your head…..
#29 – Yes, Sandi, defending Obama concerning Libya is shameful.
Obama calls…SEALS get Osama. SEALS call Obama…and die.
#29 – We already have a plutocracy in place.
@25 – I’m waiting until the FBI and State dept. investigations are completed. The administration has said from day one that the attack is being investigated and that it’s important not to rush to conclusions before beforehand. It’s absurd to expect the administration to “come clean” about the attacks until those investigations are completed. That’s the whole point of doing an investigation in the first place! I think it’s important to get all of the facts together and make an assessment rather than to rush to judgement. Like Defense Secretary Panetta said last week, there’s a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on in the rush to place blame.
Regardless, politicizing the attacks and murders is still shameful.
As for the states – fair enough. The law is the law. If they have a leg to stand on then the courts can sort it out. At the end of the day, the ACA has already improved healthcare and will continue to do so. That’s all that matters.
#34 – “The administration has said from day one that the attack is being investigated and that it’s important not to rush to conclusions before beforehand”
Actually they first blamed it on the video and have been covering it up ever since.
Do you honestly expect the truth to come out? As nice as it would be, it’ll never happen. Our gov’t has long since passed the point that it is accountable to the people.
Much like the “truth” on torture, Iraq and many other issues, no, we will never sufficiently “know” the whole truth and sadly that no longer matters. The system is however, structured just that way. There are people who fall on their sword all the way up any ladder. Rational people know this. They also know that there is no way in hell Obama refused security required or requested. That is simply not a White House level question. Not one he would answer with a refusal at any rate. Blame him, like I blamed Bush/Cheney and see where it gets you, but at least acknowledge the truth. You don’t KNOW, you are guessing and you know you will never, not ever, not the longest day you will ever live, know the whole truth.
A business, a governing body, a military platoon, the Boy Scouts, all have systems and fail-safes and stop-gaps and plausible deniability built in, if something is not your decision, how can it be your fault? Obama is not lying, he is not covering up and he is not going to be blamed, other than in people’s opinions. That is simply the truth. Bush was caught, almost red-handed with all of it, rendition, secret prisons, torture and cherry picked intel…and what happened?
#35 – The administration said from the beginning that there was an investigation of what transpired. The AP reported that the administration was investigating it on Sept. 13th. Sec. Rice said it multiple times on Sept. 16th to CBS, NBC, ABC, and Fox News. State Dept. spokesperson Nuland said it on Sept. 17th. Just to name a few…
If you’re going to automatically dismiss the investigation then there’s nothing else to discuss.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/week-transcript-us-ambassador-united-nations-susan-rice/story?id=17240933#.UJA5TlEWCZT
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57513819/face-the-nation-transcripts-september-16-2012-libyan-pres-magariaf-amb-rice-and-sen-mccain/?tag=contentMain;contentBody
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49051097/ns/meet_the_press-transcripts/t/september-benjamin-netanyahu-susan-rice-keith-ellison-peter-king-bob-woodward-jeffrey-goldberg-andrea-mitchell/#.UJA5U1EWCZR
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-news-sunday-chris-wallace/2012/09/16/amb-susan-rice-rep-mike-rogers-discuss-violence-against-americans-middle-east#p//v/1843960658001
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/10/state-department-disowns-susan-rices-libya-narrative/57801/
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2012/09/197821.htm#LIBYA
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/279475/wont-term-libya-attack-terror.htmlhttp://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2012/09/attack_on_us_ambassador_in_lib.html
Romney is really getting desperate! He makes a statement about Jeep that is absolutely false. Chrysler and every fact checker calls him on it. But, what does he do? He puts it into an ad with a bunch of other lies! Get’s called on it. What does he do? Expands the ad campaign in Ohio!
I guess he figures that he can’t get people to vote for him based on his policies, so he’s going to scare them into voting for him. I’ll say one thing for him, he certainly meant it when he said that his campaign won’t be dictated by facts and the truth.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/oct/30/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-obama-chrysler-sold-italians-china-ame/
36 – you are right, Sandi, and spot on in your last paragraph. And no, they will continue to escape notice (except from a few lonely voices in the wildernesses), and they will continue to escape accountability…
…and a significant reason is that those who SHOULD be holding them accountable are living in glass houses.
Dems dare not do anything about Bush because they are just as culpable. Faked/bogus intel data re WMD? Dems made a lot of noise, but they supported (and continue to support) the “War on Terror” too, they supported (and continue to support) the PATRIOT ACT and the NDAA and the other measures that eliminate our freedoms which comprise, according to the Shrub, the reason they hate us (what a moron). The Dems are just as culpable.
Reps won’t touch Obama because they are just as culpable. They continue to push for intervention in the ME, in sticking our noses in others’ affairs, and the undeclared wars, and the de facto wars (emnbargos) which is the real reason they hate us, and which constitutes true isolationism.
Notice while the neoCon/GOPers condemned – rightly – Obama and his comrades in the CPUSA/Dem Party for blaming the Benghazi attacks on a stupid video, they NEVER broached the possibility that the ME may be pissed because we keep bombing the crap out of them, are waging an embargo on Iran (and probably others), killing and starving many, many innocents, have pledged our unquestioning support to their mortal enemy (Obama and Romney have both done this)…nope, let’s call it a random act of terror.
There is no accountability.
Thank you 89Hoo, sort of. I grant you that a lot of voices of protest die back down when it is their party in power, but I do not think it is a “glass house” so much as the reality of limited time and reality (at least that is my hope).
If you can remember the Watergate hearings, Iran/Conta and the Clinton ______Gates, you saw how the circus and the system worked. At the “best case” scenario, a President resigns, but what really did that do for the nation? What did ANY of them do for the nation? Did we learn anything? Did we really change anything?
The systems, from the lowliest secretary in a 20 employee firm to the White House and Congress, is all the same. There is a chance nothing will happen, there is a chance you can get away with it and if not, the repercussions are only going to be so bad due to the system. Sure, the most egregious and indefensible, like Cunningham, Abramoff, Kozlowski, Traficant, and Maddoff go to prison, but many more don’t.
We may hold someone as responsible and blame them as we see fit, but the system is different.
It is a lot like the whole Romney story. He is cheered, applauded and respected for gaming the business, investor, LBO and tax structures to get very very rich. A poor toothless simple-minded fool is excoriated for scamming food stamps. A local business does not pay employee tax withholding or insurance deducted and they close and move on to start over in a “new” business and the employees are SOL. A wealthy CEO can tell employees (who need their paycheck to survive) who to vote for and if they don’t like the outcome, shut the business down and start over, no sweat and the workers are again SOL with no recourse.
On and on it goes. Look at the Boy Scout files just released? Fighting gay boys and gay leaders while literally covering for pedophiles in their ranks. It is the way of the world and it is not as simple as “glass houses”.
And one more thing, the Bush/Cheney administration was never held accountable for ANYTHING except the scapegoated Libby. Not torture, not rendition, not secret prisons, not disappeared people, not ignoring intel, not anything. Do you, for a freaking moment think that Obama will not be held accountable if Issa can prove he “denied” any security or aid? Really? Again, as we saw with Clinton, not bloody likely. The double standard in this country is reality too.
It matters who you vote for, it matters a lot this time, but the system is the system all the same.
President Obama will not be held accountable for anything, Sandi, though a low level flunkie or two may get thrown to the wolves (a la Libby). But Obama will skate.
Precisely #41. Oddly, he will “skate” but be blamed just the same. I don’t call that skating, as there is no evidence that he did anything wrong or was even aware of what had been done wrong. But that too is “the system”. Ask OJ, not being convicted of a crime does not mean anything. Ask Bush/Cheney. The word “skate” still implies guilt and you have no proof of guilt. The same system that let’s the bad guys skate. Let’s the good guys “skate”. It is not a pretty system.
#41 – The same people who continually make excuses for Obama now will continue to do so once he leave office.
Nothing is his fault.
Good grief I should wait till I finish my coffee! Let me revise: The same system that lets the bad guys skate, lets the good guys “skate”. It is not a pretty system.
Goes back to the question you asked, Sandi: “Do you…think that Obama will not be held accountable if Issa can prove he “denied” any security or aid?”
If such can be proven, than Obama is NOT one of the good guys, and SHOULD be held accountable. But he will not – he will skate any real accountability (and no, a vague assignation of “blame” is not accountability). Though, as I said, expect to see the head of a low-level peon roll.
Hey b.o.h.i.c.a. thta “gift” might turn into a criminal charge…
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/10/31/conservative-tries-to-donate-to-obama-as-bin-laden-commits-crime/
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/10/30/sorry-drudge-the-obama-campaign-is-not-acceptin/191002
You cannot trust the right wing media. It is not honest. It has no credibility and for obvious reasons some people want to believe the narrative regardless of the truth and they know that too.
Don’t bring that stuff here.
If such can be sufficiently proved, yes, President Obama should be held accountable. As it is, there is no evidence at all and he is still considered guilty by many, including some here. For some people, all the facts in the world don’t matter (Bush) and for those same people, no facts at all doesn’t matter either.
A “low-level peon” would not have the authority to deny help, to ignore requests for more security or “cover-up” the communications. The mistakes made were serious, a fair and credible investigation needs to happen and the chips fall where they may. This nation has had enough of no one being held accountable. Money and power cannot keep making people immune to accountability. Even if that is President Obama.