Fox penning: Point/Counterpoint
Should Virginia ban fox penning, the sport in which dogs chase foxes in fenced-in land?
Barbaric fox penning bears no relationship to hunting
By Robin Robertson Starr
Robertson Starr is the chief executive officer of the Richmond SPCA, a non-profit, no-kill humane society that saves the lives of approximately 3,500 companion animals annually and advocates for the well being of all animals.
The barbaric practice of fox penning, which Virginia currently permits through the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, is logically indistinguishable from animal fighting. Outside the ranks of its participants, few Virginians are aware of this cruel activity in which dogs, often numbering in the hundreds, are released into fenced enclosures in competitions to pursue and torment captive foxes, frequently mauling and killing them. The fox penners have self-reported that, in just four years, nearly 5,000 foxes have been trapped in the wild and imprisoned in these enclosures in which they must constantly run in fear. There is no means of escape for the foxes from these pens, only a few ineffective hiding places in which the foxes cannot remain without starving.
Nothing about this brutal setting of animal upon animal constitutes hunting by any rational analysis. Humans have no participation in the chase, which is by no means fair, nor any role in killing the prey. This practice bears no relationship whatsoever to traditional mounted fox hunting and has more in common with the repugnant blood sport of bear baiting.
In fact, fox penning has no relationship to any hunting tradition and has existed only since the 1980s. Fox penning is not recognized in the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, which emphasizes wildlife as a public resource, and contributes nothing to wildlife management. Its proponents claim baselessly that fox penning provides essential hunting dog training and that the foxes enjoy the chase. In reality, fox penning is not permitted in many states where hunting is popular and common. Virginia is one of a minority of states that permits it, although Virginia bans the penning of any other wild animals. A 2012 poll conducted by Mason-Dixon Polling & Research shows that Virginia voters overwhelmingly oppose the abuses of fox pens by more than 8 to 1, and a majority support legislation to prohibit the practice.
Fox penners, unable to defend this cruelty through rational dialog, have engaged in a pattern of threats and ad hominem attacks on anyone who dares challenge the ethics of this barbarism. In fact, speaking at a recent public DGIF Board meeting, Kirby Burch insensitively compared the numerous organizations and people who oppose fox penning to Adolf Hitler and the Holocaust, a historic reference that was deeply offensive to any morally thoughtful person.
Virginia’s long tradition of hunting has an ethical code recognizing that no sport exists if the animal being hunted has no means of escape. Virginia voters have made clear that they care deeply about treating animals with compassion and look to the DGIF Board and to our elected representatives to uphold Virginia’s honor by protecting defenseless animals from this brutality.
Fox preserve training is not animal fighting
By Kirby Burch
Burch, a founding member of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance, is a lifelong Virginia sportsman and conservationist and has served as the director of the Virginia Department of Conservation and Recreation and as the deputy director of the Virginia Department of Forestry.
The easiest way to provide an answer to the proposal to ban fox preserves is to examine the facts. Called pens by some people, who are hoping to convince others that the wily fox has nowhere to run or hide, in truth, fox preserves must be a minimum of 100 acres. The largest preserve in Virginia covers 1.5 square miles. By regulation, there must be an escape structure in every 20 acres. Because the foxes cost the preserve owner a great deal of money to own and care for, all the preserves that I have seen have far more escape structures than required.
Preserves’ owners pay the expenses of trappers to relocate to the preserves the foxes they have caught other places where they were being nuisances. These foxes, which would otherwise have been destroyed, are allowed to get to know their new home before any dogs are brought onto the property. Without these preserves, every fox caught would be destroyed.
It is said that this is not hunting, and this is mostly correct. The purpose of these preserves is to allow fox hunters to train their dogs and to hold field trials. The purpose is not to catch and kill foxes. These preserves serve as a training ground for hounds, safely away from roads and on land that is well-suited for this activity.
Animal rights advocates allege that hunters stand around and watch this “blood sport” as dogs tear the foxes apart. Nothing could be further from the truth and reveals their ignorance about the preserves. During a field trial, in which the hunters use water-based ink to put numbers on their dogs to identify the fastest and surest dogs in a chase, only judges are allowed into the preserve while the trial is under way. I am frequently asked to judge these trials. I have never seen a fox caught and, frankly, I have never spoken to another judge who has.
The fox hound training preserves were authorized by the Virginia General Assembly in the 1980s and have been closely regulated by the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries ever since. DGIF Executive Director Bob Duncan, in testimony before the Senate Agriculture Committee in February 2012, stated emphatically that the fox preserves training was not animal fighting, as alleged by animal rights advocates.
The Humane Society of the United States, a radical animal rights lobbying group based in Washington, D.C., is using the attack on fox preserves to spearhead a broad-based political agenda that opposes all hunting, raising of animals for food and the use of animals for medical research. I urge you to go to www.humanewatch.org to learn more about the animal rights agenda and to support the continuation of the fox hound training preserves in Virginia.
November 11, 2012 - 8:05 AM
As a an up and coming houndsmen I myself enjoy going to the fox pen to train my hounds and to enjoy good friends and times. If this sport was so grusome would there be so many women and children involved, no. I myself have no children but love to see the young kids getting involved in something that does not involve video games, out creating problems, or breaking laws…I say this as I work with youth on a daily basis. But back to topic, these pens are very closely regulated by the VADGIF and if they felt animal cruelty or anything along those lines was occuring dont you believe they would act on it as that is there job. I just wish people could understand the main point of these pens and that is to provide a safe place for our hounds (OUR PETS) to get exercise and to be trained, not to kill, fight, or any other type of violence that the HSUS, PETA, and others have portrayed. If you have never visited a training facility ask around get with a fox a hunter and I am sure they will have no problem showing you what goes on at one of thses facilities.
Be trained to go out into the forest and kill you mean? Do you train them and then not hunt with them? How is what you are doing different than the people who train pit bulls and other dogs to fight for their amusement?
Sandi and all of the others out there who referr to what we do as being compared to Pit bull fighting. In these pens, the hounds are closely watched by many who are in the pen judgng the hounds. If at anytime a fox looks like it might ne in trouble for any reason the judges will break the hounds off of the fox as quickly as possible. This is a family aymosphere where we go to enjoy the company and fellowship of others who enjoy the same. he individualls who own these reserves want nothing less than to keep all of their fox same from harm.Truth is, these fox actually live around 3 to 4 years longer in the pen than they would have on the outside. No fear of traffic on roads. No fear of being killed by farmers who have farm animals which they target. We feel we are helping to save these animals yet people like you who have no idea what goes on believe the negatives you hear. This sport has been going on for over 30 years and now the new generation wants it gone. Maybe the best thing is for the ones who oppose it to actually go out and get involved and enjoy life with your families instead of trying to bring negative views on the things others have found they love to do. Just my oppinion. I can’t see where putting animals in a reserve to help them while using them to train hounds is a bad thing. Beats seeing them on the road dead due to someone who is rushing home to post something negative on the computer about fox reserves.
Let’s just get something straight here, I did not “referr to what we do as being compared to Pit bull fighting”. I asked how training scent dogs is any different than training fighting dogs, or for that matter, herding dogs. I made no comparison. But if you insist, I will.
I do not compare penning an animal for the sport of seeing it chased and terrorized by dogs in training (how often?, how many times a day/month/year?) to how I treat my pets. I do not compare terrorizing an animal for sport to “a family aymosphere where we go to enjoy the company and fellowship of others who enjoy the same”. I do not compare “keep all of their fox same from harm” to allowing them to be tortured with chase after chase from hounds they have no idea will not kill them. Trust me, the fox did not get that memo!
I do not compare “No fear of traffic on roads. No fear of being killed by farmers who have farm animals which they target” to being “free” in a cage with only the often needed “chase of the hounds” to contend with.
Yes I get it that you “feel we are helping to save these animals” but I do not believe that is the truth of the matter anymore than mink farmers are protecting the mink. Or the Chicken farmer is protecting the chicken. In many ways, torturing and taunting a caged animal is much more cruel than a quick death.
I do not expect to “win” this argument with you all anymore than a penned fox will expect to live unmolested. That does not mean either of us won’t try.
I believe that “what goes on” has been explained very well. Like the circus, the zoos and the National Forest, someone else has found a way to make money off of poor dumb, defenseless animals. Pardon me if I do not high five that.
Dog fighting has been going on for a lot of centuries and has a lot of supporters and purveyors too. That does not make it right either.
If I got “involved” it would be to protest and point our the cruelty, so you had best leave that invitation alone. I will never consider animal abuse a spectator sport. Your “scent hounds” can chase plenty of scent that does not involve torturing other animals. You know it, I know it and the world knows it.
Because fox preserves are legal in Va., I am able to exercise my hounds and not worry about offending land owners and I also don’t have to worry about them getting run over on the highway.
It’s a shame that people like the HSUS are able to try and get a wonderful sport banned with lies and inuendo.
I do not understand the wording of “caged” animal. How is 1000 ac or more “caged” let us not forget the man made dens and safe houses for the fox were food and shelter are provided. The 1000 ac “cages” do not have dogs in them 24 7 and are closed for “cage” repair and upkeep. The “cages” are as close to a natural habitat as possible. If enjoying fox preserves (for the safety factors of my family and my hounds) makes our “ethics of this barbarism” then I am as barbaric as they come, but I do not have to fabricate or add to a story just to make someone believe what I have to say. I do not try to have people “join my cause” based on what I think I know and I do not impose my beliefs on others just because we have different thoughts and prospectives. Have a good day.
I have yet to understand what “lies” it is you claim are being told about your so called “wonderful sport”? Calling the Humane Society a “radical animal rights lobbying group” is no more honest than saying that foxes are sometimes caught, maimed or killed. Can you prove they never are? Really? Can you? Is it a LIE that foxes are killed or an exaggeration that they are “frequently” mauled and killed?
A “wonderful sport” does not involve torturing or tormenting animals IMO.
Good point gennifer, you “do not impose my beliefs on others”, just on foxes. Got it.
Sandi you may think this is barbaric so be it. Just as some people believe in gay marriage or pro life or Rebublican or Democrats it is a personal choice. If this does not affect you personally why worry about it? Have you even researched how much money training preserves raise in tax revenue? How about how many jobs are generated? And yes you are correct I did not ask the fox what it wants but I don’t ask the cow I am having for dinner nor the chick or the pig I will eat at breakfast. Oh and let me not forget the bugs I will hit on my way to work with my car.
Yes, the poor dumb animals just don’t matter, to some. A personal choice to torture animals is barbaric. No matter the animal and no matter the person choosing. Being a vegetarian, I walk the walk.
I more than get it that I do not get to choose your recreation for you and vice versa. This is a blog discussion board and I am sorry that you feel only the voices of support for your so called “sport” should be heard or have merit. That is not the way I roll.
I have been going to foxpens for 20 years. I’ve been in 7 different pens in Virginia and one in North Carolina. I’ve never seen a fox killed or caught. All of the 20 plus different packs of hounds that I have followed in the pens are from the world of mounted foxhunting both in VA and other states. I am mostly involved with mounted foxhunting on the outside but use the pens to help train my puppies. For 13 years I have taken my own young hounds to the fox pens. My club is called Stonewall Hounds. The other clubs that I know currently use or have used foxpens in the past are the Deep Run Hunt, Farmington Hunt, Rockbridge Hunt, Bull Run Hunt, Middlebrook, Snickersville, Bedford County Hunt and Smith Mountain.
No the way you roll is putting anyone who thinks different from you down. My sisterinlaw is a vegetarian and I repesct her choice and I respect her because she does not try to shove her beliefs on me just as I don’t ask her to go hunting. My nieces have a choice if they want a hotdog or tofo. They also know I have dogs and cats and we share the pets cause she does not what any and that is okay. The way I see it I would rather be barbaric and understanding over only knowing half of a story and running with it and anyone who says different is wrong. Yes you are right this is only a blog and after reading some of your other blogs I can see this is a battle that wont end. Sandi words to the wise eliminate some stress from your life you have a fire that is needed in other areas focus on healthy foods for the schools or vegetarian menu education for our youth things you know 100% about.
Hello, my name is Matthew Lewis, I am from pittsylvania county, I am 18 years old. I have ran fox hounds for nearly all of my life. But before I was a still hunter so I’ve seen the best of both worlds. I have been to many field trials and have rarely even put any hounds in it. I enjoy just listening to the chase. I would like to start off by saying that there is nothing “barbaric” about fox pins. In fact fox pins are very helpful to the community. For instance one of the primary uses of fox pins is to train hounds to run deer. Another sport that’s oddly frowned upon by many. Where I am from the county is separated by railroad tracks and on one side dog hunting is aloud for deer and the other side is not. If you were to simply ride the roads you will see that many more deer are hit by vehicles on the side where dog hunting is not aloud. I am also a member of 2 volunteer fire and ems departments in which one department is on one side of the tracks and the other side is on the other so I generally know when someone hits a deer on their car. And as I said a lot more deer are killed by vehicles on the side that doesn’t allow dog hunting. And if it were not for these fox pins then us dog hunters would be forced to train our beautiful beloved hounds out side of fences and somewhat near roads. We not only train our dogs to run game in these preserve but also to obey people. For instance to come to us when we call for them so that when they’re grown and we run them outside of the preserve if they get close to the road we can call for them before they are hit by passing vehicles. It is in regulation that These “fox pins” are required to be 100 acres and have at least one escape route per 20 acres. Every fox pin that I’ve ever been to has many more escape routes than just one every 20 acres. These foxes come from areas such as cities or towns where they are a problem in the community. And if it wasn’t for these foxes going to the fox preserve then they would be destroyed. So my personal opinion is that they should allow fox pins. So please allow me to leave you with a few questions. Would it be better to train hounds in a fenced in area where the pray can get away or train them in areas where that can be hit by passing vehicles? Would you rather a fox be destroyed because of the environment they live in? Or be moved to a safe environment where nothing is there to harm them such as humans, coyotes, etc. would you rather the deer us hunters kill by using those very hounds we safely trained in the fox pins be killed by a bullet and they don’t suffer and can be eaten and enjoyed by a family, or be hit by a vehicle and suffer many times for hours and Their body’s be destroyed and their death have no meaning to it? Before your vote I would like for you to sit back and think about those questions before making your final rash decision. Thank you for your time
Again, this is a blog discussion board and I am sorry that you feel only the voices of support for your so called “sport” should be heard or have merit.
my family and i have been attending and training at fox pens for about 3 or 4 years. I have a 12yr old son and a 8 yr old daughter this sport has brought our family together while enjoying the outdoors. I have never seen a fox killed at a hunt or during training, there are several fox homes or dens both man made and natural in these very large pens that are usually 100′s of acres. These pens are closed regularly to give time of rest or while new foxes are being acclimated. I do think that much of the bad press fox pens get are one sided and dont explain what we do or how we do it. as a previous person commented if you have never been there and seen what goes on and how then how can you state “facts”??
Sandi, I am sorry that you seem to be the only one on this blog discussion board that feels that fox pens are a detriment to society, and therefore should be shut down. Those very fox pens that you seem to hate and despise are responsible for many families being lifted up in true brotherly love when circumstances beyond their control they find themselves on the verge of eminent financial destruction. Examples are benefit hunts for fathers killed and being the only paycheck in the family, Children diagnosed with cancer and the family not knowing how they will pay for medical treatment. These are only two examples of where the fox hunting community has come together to help and support people they know and people they have never had the pleasure to know, just like they were family. I know of very few brotherhoods like the fox hunting community they will be the first to chip in and help when a need arises. I wish more of the world knew the love and devotion that these guys put in to owning and raising fox hounds. These hounds are treated as kids and are raised right along side our own kids. If the sport was so bloody and barbaric we would not place our cherished hounds in harms way for the fear of them getting hurt. That is why we train young hounds in the fox pens for fear of them getting hurt or injured. I do believe that if you would be a little more open-minded and go to one of these fox pens or preserves and allow yourself to come to your own conclusions and not let preconceived notions cloud your vision you will see the love that the owners have for their hounds and the love the hounds have for the owners and the respect that the pen owners have for the animals in the pen, and the true lengths that are gone to, to ensure the safety of all the animals in the pen, both the foxes and the hounds.
i did want to note one other item i didnt mention in a previous post…i have attended many benefit hunts in which money is raised for a needy cause ie sick child, unexcepted loss of spouse or house fire. My brother in law and his family lost EVERYTHING in a house fire lucky my sister in law made it out with minor issues and no one else was home. They haad just moved there and hadnt gotten insurance. A hunt was put on and raised a good amount of money to help replace things for him, his wife and 3 children. I just thought some good light should be shown on this sport also
I will not “open” my mind to animal cruelty no matter the picnic good times or the camaraderie you believe your “sport” fosters. I get that from church thanks and we never have to torture any of God’s creatures to see “brotherly love”.
I am sorry I am the only person who sees the cruelty here too. Terribly sorry.
I think what people are so up in arms about is the notion that foxes are harmless. They are not. They can carry disease such as rabies, parvo virus, distemper and a variety of other diseases that are contagious to other animals as well as humans. Foxes can be LEGALLY hunted and trapped in Virginia and they have been for generations as a means of population management that works.
I am a hunter and I will shoot a fox on sight providing it is during a legal season, as they are known to prey on other game animals such as rabbit, grouse, quail, turkey, and deer. There is NO shortage of foxes either.
Equating what goes on in a fox pen to what happens in a dog fighting pit is a knee-jerk reaction at best that only serves to prey on the emotions of the less informed. Keep in mind that the HSUS is the very same organizaiton that would ban ALL hunting and seriously restrict pet ownership. They are not the kind and loving caretakers of thousands of dogs and cats that end up in shelters each year… in fact, they are the euthanizers of thousands of pets.
The people that utilize these pens state that they are for field trials and training their dogs for hunting activities. I would MUCH prefer to have the dogs run in these pens where they are contained and do not become nusiance to landowners who do not allow hunting on their properties. Each year we hear of more and more conflict between those landowners and the slob-style hunters who allow their dogs to cross onto property that is clearly posted and use the excuse that dogs can’t read posted signs. Well, I would hope that the owners CAN read and would control their animals better. I know many fellow hunters who have had their hunts disrupted by dogs that have NOT been properly controlled by their owners. If you check the law, disrupting a legal hunt in Virginia is a CRIME.
Also, I think that the fox pens would be a much more acceptable alternative to the HSUS as there is a MUCH smaller number of animals being chased by the dogs than there are in open unfenced woods. Many of these dogs are trained to run deer as well as other animals, so trainign them and letting them run in an enclosed area limits the number of game and non-game animals that are disturbed.
Last, the cost of using a fox pen would help ensure that the dog owners take responsibility for their animals. There aren’t many people who would invest large amounts of money on training a dog to hunt only to leave it in the woods to starve, get hit by a car, or become ferrel. Using a fox pen that charges a fee to the dog owners would help ensure proper treatment of the dogs.
It’s easy for both sides of the issue to get emotional about the topic, but emotion doesn’t equal morality or good ethics. Let’s keep it all in perspective as we discuss this topic and remember that there are TWO sides to every coin.
Sandi,
I take it you are a Christian woman… Have you read your bible recently? There are COUNTLESS stories of animal sacrifices in the bible.
Look at your shoes. Are they made of leather? Can you honestly say that you’ve never worn ANY animal product like leather? Have you ever used cosmetics? Can you be 100% certain that those products were never tested on animals? Have you ever been driving your car and struck an animal or insect? How can you be sure that any of your daily actions do not cause suffering to an animal somewhere? If you eat meat, you cause the death of the animals you eat simply by buying their flesh. At least a hunter is willing to be involved in the process instead of just turing a blind eye and assuming that all meat comes neatly packaged for human consumption from some sterile magical place called a grocery store.
I will not shoot what I will not eat or utilize in some way. I will not let an animal that I harvest be wasted. And I will not take a superior attitude and call myself an animal lover if I am not 100% willing to take responsibility for my actions as a meat eater and a member of the human race. To do that would be hypocritical.
I think the press has been very unfair with this issue. It has been very one sided and like the animal activists have found it guilty before given a chance to prove its innocence. I have been to some of the Fox Preserves and it is nothing like the article stated. I have been in the enclosures and it is not a fox in a cage with dogs
mauling it. I have judged field trials many times and the hound is not judged on running down the fox. The hounds are judged by picking up the scent, following the scent and tracking the scent. They are awarded points on those abilities, not the shred fest the writer of the article suggests. A typical scoring session is watching the fox cross in the path you are on. You WAIT for the dogs, which are usually not very close behind. The fox is very smart and can ouwit most of the time. As the dogs follow the scent they are scored. Some of the fox are very reconizable and I have seen them time after time in the preserve. There was one paticular fox that I had seen for two years. The hounds are awarded trophies by which one scores the highest in points. There is no blood involved. The preserves are not open year round and the fox raise many young.
The preserve owners have their own association and have put so many good pratices and policies in place. VA. preserves are closely regulated by the VA. Dept of Game and Inland Fisheries and are inspected often to ensure good care is being taken of the fox and that all laws are being followed to the letter. We have often been referred to as VA’s dirty little secret. We have never done anything in secret and anyone can come to the preserves to participate. We do many benefits for Cancer, folks who been burned out of their homes, folks stricken by serious illness and children who have been injured or sick.
We are good people and have not deserved the cruel untruths that the HSUS has started to have us shut down. Alot of good people enjoy the field trials and to label us with the slanderous lies is so unfair. If these people had been to one and expierenced for themselves that would be one thing, but to just type what you think it is because you feel animals have more rights than people is pure unethical to me.
I just request that both sides be given fair say in this. It is very unfair to hang a man without a trial first. We are guilty of nothing more than being country folks who love to be outside, spend time with our families and enjoy the sounds of the hounds. We would never take pleasure in watching hounds rip apart another animal. If that is what you believe, I may not be able to change that. But I can feel good about writing about what I do know by being there and participating and seeing with my own eyes. I don’t have millions of dollars to hire lawyers, do commercials or any of the other propaganda the HSUS puts out there, but I have the heart to fight for these people and try to preserve this and hopefully others will see some things are not what they seem.
Fox Penning is not what it is called. We are VA. Foxhound Preserves
Debbie Lynn Allen
Interesting to read the comments.
And like most discussions, those who are opposed to this have neither seen it or done it.
It would be interesting to see their reaction once they actually saw a fox event. And would they be intellectually honest enough to admit that maybe it’s not what they were led to believe.
Like guns and gun ownership, most who are against it have no experience with guns; seems the same here.
As my grandfather often said; “busy bodies are a dime a dozen; ignorant ones are more common.”
I am commenting on this post because my hobby and my passion is being attached by being put out to be something it’s not. My sport is downright being lied about in hopes for it to be banned.
Things in this article that are not true:
-It’s a barbaric practice. It’s the complete opposite of barbaric. Fox Hound Training Preserves offers hound owners a safe place to enjoy hearing and exercising their dogs. Our dogs enjoy just as much as we do. Fox Preserves were created to keep hounds safe, out of highways and off other people lands. Many bring their kids and family. One would expose their kids to something barbaric.
That it’s animal fighting: This is ridiculous to compare our sport to animal fighting. There aren’t any animals fighting, how could you compare the two.
That the foxes have no escape: Fox Pens must be 100 acres in size. There must be one safe house per 20 acres. Most Fox Hound Training Preserves have more safe houses because the owners want to protect the foxes; they spend a lot of money on them. The point is not to catch the fox but just to chase the fox. The fox is not killed.
Animal rights groups (Such as HSUS, etc…) want to not only end fox preserves but end all hunting. They know they can’t end all hunting at his point. They look at hound hunters as low hanging fruit. Let me explain. The general public doesn’t understand what we do in fox hound training preserves. So they can put spin on it and give their own version to make us look terrible. If you have a lot of money and are well organized and have a lot of people and resources. Through ad, radio, other media you can spread a distorted and convoluted image of what something really is.
You lost me when you called the Humane Society a “radical animal rights group.” My take on Fox pens is the same for all hunting, it will only be fair when the prey can shoot back.
I mainly use my beagles to hunt deer but during the off season I take them to a local fox pen to let them run and get excercise. I also put them into field trials in fox pens. Never have I ever seen a dog catch a fox! They have so many places to hide and they are much smarter than the dogs. It’s like a game to the fox and it also gives them excercise. In the fox pen they have many man made places to hide and also get fed everyday! The owner of the pen takes very good care of them. There is not a thing cruel about it. If you have never been there or seen it first hand then I dont know how you can form a negative opinion about it. I know my boys and I love it and will continue for as long as we can.
People should really try to understand something before they condemn it. Most people who oppose something, likely don’t ever at least try to participate or understand it.
Most Preserves have regulations. They have to have permits to function. They are inspected before allowing to have said permits, by the Conservation/Wildlife professionals.
The animals DO have places to hide. Natural and man made dens.
They have food, water, shelter.
Dogs do not have the advantages – the foxes are there for years, they know the large enclosures better than the dogs.
American Foxhounds are scent hounds, they use their noses to follow a scent left by the foxes within the enclosure. Sometimes they don’t ever see the fox they are scenting, the fox stays too far ahead of them and when it is ready it goes to ground or the dogs lose the tricky scent line.
Hunters with hounds don’t want to kill these foxes, they don’t train their dogs for the killing or fighting. They do not fight the dogs or put them right against the fox.
Enclosures are fenced in landscapes totally natural to what the native animals are used to except for the safe houses, man-made feeding areas, and sleeping area for the hunters.
Enclosures isn’t something that came about for the goodness of the sport/tradition or the benefit. They came about because they were needed. Hunting grounds have been sold off, houses, towns, businesses, private property, and no trespassing signs have cropped up all over the place. Hunters would love hunting on the outside, but the safety of the hounds, the legal issues, and the uncertainty of knowing the people around them have forced them away from the wild and into these enclosures.
There are those that skirt the rules or completely disregard them, but that is no reason to vilify the majority for doing it right and as humane as humanly possible.
I have not offered & do not offer an opinion on this subject. Why?
I am not informed or experienced, I do not have a litmus-test required response (regardless of information or experience).
I feel no need to chime in on every topic.
What then is my point? Why “chime” in at all? Just that.
Just to get an idea of the size of the “pens”, 1 acre is the size of a regulation NFL football field. Hard to understand when you can spit in your neighbors window…
You will also hear horror stories about how many foxes are put in pens what they won’t tell you is 100 acres fenced inm that’s a lot of trees a long the fence. Now 100 acres is the minimum size a fox pen has to be. The sizes of fox pens in VA range from 100 acres to over 970 acres. What they won’t tell you is the fence gets knocked down in fox pens all the time from storms etc and the foxes get out and the owner has to replace the foxes in the pen.
The media has published a one sided story about fox hound training preserves from a point of view that has never stepped foot in a fox hound training preserve but wants to get rid of them. From this point of view down right lies have been told about fox hound training preserves to try and tarnish our name and our sport so bad the general assembly has no choice but to turn their back on us and our sport is outlawed
People that have never been to a pen are the only ones who are against them. Why is that? It is because they believe all the lies the HSUS have told them. An intelligent person would not form an opinion without looking into the facts.
Seriously, the odds here are a lot like the fox’s. Giving yourselves all the excuses you like does not change the cruelty of chasing an animal for sport, not in a pen, not in the wide open spaces, not with dogs and most assuredly not for fun and entertainment.
Karin, there are “COUNTLESS stories of” stoning and slavery and obeying your master in the Bible too, is that Okay with you?
No, my shoes, nor coats are made of leather. I said, I walk the walk. I refuse many medications and products that use animal testing and will continue to do so. BUT, they do not torture those animals for pleasure and entertainment, now do they?
I did wear animal products like leather and never paid any attention to it until 2005 when I took in a stray pregnant dog and realized the hypocrisy of loving and protection only some animals. I am very careful about my products and make every effort to contribute to animal welfare causes. And I support nothing involving animal cruelty for entertainment. That includes circus acts, zoos and hunting with dogs.
I respect hunters who match their skill against the animal (and often lose), and especially those who eat what they kill. I respect no one who kills for fun or uses dogs to do so.
I think the Lord has protected me, I have never “struck an animal”, I have even left the highway not to. I have hit many insects as that is virtually unavoidable. I stop and rescue turtles. But again, I do not do so for “sport” or entertainment. I am as sure as a human can be that my daily actions do not cause suffering to any animal?
I have not eaten meat in years and still carry the guilt that I did. Factory farming is heinous.
Some are proud that you “will not shoot what I will not eat or utilize in some way. I will not let an animal that I harvest be wasted” but you are proud to torture that animal with dogs chasing it before you kill it and you call that “sport”?
My attitude is not “superior”, it is humble. Deeply humble. I do not consider myself worthy of torturing or ending the life of an animal who offers me no harm.
I am sorry that the pendulum can only swing your way for you to respect it.
How ’bout we just call it a “choice”?
Or does a fox (not killed) have moral perogative over a third-trimester, partial-birth…..(what would you care to call it)?
Hypocricy aside, the logic of the left (pro-animal…anti-human) is absurd.
Don’t go there….most consider sex fun. If not sport. To bad the fetus can’t run or hide.
“Why “chime” in at all?”
Free country?
Sandi, you keep talking about all of this being cruel and barbaric as you call it but I have not read a single comment that was true that in any way shape or form was cruel to any animal. And if you know of any that is true I would like for you to say it because as I said earlier I have been to many fox pens and watched many field trials and have yet to see anything that was in crual. And art, I understand what you mean by ” it’s not fair until the prey can shoot back”. I am very open minded, but my question to you is what’s the difference in us killing wild animals and a farmer selling a raised cow or chicken or other such animal who’s only purpose in life is to be sold for money and taken somewhere and slaughtered. I just don’t understand why people are picking us dog owners and everyone else who enjoys going to field trials out when they’re giant companies such as Tyson who are raising chickens in chicken coops to never see light, be injected with steroids, etc. and die in the coop and just tossed to the side like a piece of garbage. So why invest money to pick on people who help the community?
Living near the state line in N.C. my friends and our families often enjoy fox preserves in Va. Our sons and daughters enjoy field trial for all kinds of worthy causes from churches to little kids with cancer . Maybe HSUS should spend some of the millions they use trying to stop good people from doing good things like enjoying the outdoors and giving to their neighbors in need and make use of their funds more wisely.
Sandi
Pushing your beliefs or opinions on every one else. That thinks indifferent from you is not right.In this case you are the 1%.the 99% eat meat & dont mind hunting even have some type of family or frends that hunt.Maybe one day i will give up my hobby of spending time with my family. Or better yet get thim involed in pushing a law threw.
That would shows whin a persion who dont take there medications prescribed by a doctor. Could be unfit to think rational & might be a harm to there self & others! Like whin you leave the road to keep from hitting a animal. whats to say you would not hit a car head on or strike a pedestrian whin doing so.
Just think Sandi that door swings both ways. To beable to enjoy your freedoms you must appreciate & endur someone eles.
Believe me, if the Point / Counter Point was someone from PETA and someone from Tyson, I would be 100 times more livid and accusatory. Two wrongs however, do not make a right.
I cannot understand someone claiming an open mind, owning pets and not thinking that deliberately striking fear of death into a helpless animal is “sport” or “fun”. The fox does not know they will not be killed and torn limb from limb when those hounds start howling and chasing them. They just do not. They run in fear and panic for their lives.
Some even hint the fox “likes it”. Gee where have I heard that before? No, they don’t. Elephants were not born to parade and do tricks or live chained for hours either. Tigers do not love living in a cage. They may all be news flashes to some, but they are things that animal lovers think about.
It is legal, it is your choice, but nothing says I have to like or respect it.
Well just a, that might make some sense if indeed it was me “Pushing your beliefs or opinions on every one else”. I did not generate the topic, but I am as a regular participant of the blog, allowed to express my opinions. I think there is even a pesky Constitutional right to have and express an opinion too. I have acknowledged that you all are free to “thinks” anyway you like, what you are not free to do unaccountably is pretend the practice is humane to the fox.
Precisely, I am the 1% against the 99% and yet you all still cannot bear it. Sad.
What medication is it you “thinks” I should be on? Your communication skills scream for you to give up that family time and try to medicate the world so they will quietly accept your POV.
Is the car I am to hit “head on” also leaving the highway or already driving on the side of it? I’ll be sure to watch for those “pedestrian whin doing so”. Thanks for your civility and concern.
Animal cruelty is a door that hits far too many defenseless animals and your tactics of hiding in anonymity and insulting me will not shut me up about it.
No one is asking you to like or respect it. And I don’t care if it was Petta or who it was when I was referring to Tyson I was simply saying that instead of trying to outlaw fox pins why not try to outlaw other cruel things that happen to animals everyday. It is very obvious that you have never been to a fox pin just to look around or witnessed a field trial. And what everyone is trying to make you realize is that these foxes are not harmed in any way. I am very open minded and I completely understand what was meant when someone said that it would e fair when the animals can shoot back. Trust me my cousin is a lot like you in this way as she is a vegitarian and is able to spend more of her time to stopping cruely to animals as we all wish we could and has spent countless hours talking about subjects just like this one. Ther for I have heard both side and know where each of us come from. And when the fox pen topic came up she had the same beliefs you did. So I finally convinced her to come to a field trial and she did and now she will stand up against people who try to ban them . Because she was open minded and experienced it just one time she now understand our side as well as you would if you were to be if you would just experience it just one time. Nobody is here to make you change your mind we are all simply trying to keep you and whoever else backs you from banning a place we love to go and doing the things that we love to do
Jim Lucas, I am not “anti-human”, though some do give me cause. I am pro woman and giving her the privacy to make her own decisions. If you can figure out what the fox wants and prove it, you might have a correlation.
You must be smoking that all natural stuff, saving turtles in the road and stuff.You wouldn’t hurt animals or insects directly. The cotton in your cloths were treated with insecticides to kill insects. If your house had termites would you call terminex and have it sprayed or would you just let them have it and build you another one. I’ve seen coyotes chasing behind the dogs chasing another coyote and when the one they are running goes in a hole the others jump in front of the dogs to be chased. I’ve seen the dogs and coyotes sleeping in boxes after running all night sleeping together the next morning. I suggest you spend your time doing more important stuff like feeding the hungary, helping the homeless, or battered women than trying to stop things you don’t understand. Do something more important with your time and get a life. Your probabably not married or have any children so you probably have alot of time on your hands. Good luck, go save the world or something and stop ruining others lives.
Matthew Lewis, what is it you believe I have done to “outlaw fox pins”? I am commenting on a blog, not writing my Congressman. If I could indeed “outlaw other cruel things that happen to animals everyday” I would. I live in the real world where more people think of animals as you all do the fox, and I know it. I do not actively fight it beyond supporting animal rights efforts.
Of course I have never been to a fox pen and I never will. I also do not visit chicken farms but I know what goes on there.
How on earth you can say that chasing a wild animal is not harming them “in any way”, I cannot fathom. Do you believe they enjoy it too?
I am not now, nor have I ever tried to “ban them”. I would not vote to support them, would absolutely vote to ban them, but I am not actively working for anything. You believe that only people who support you are “open minded” and I disagree totally. I do not believe you have a side. The fox had no choice, there are no sides unless you both have a choice.
No one “backs” me. If you want to keep your “sport” keep it off the ballot. Till then, you have nothing to fear from me but my loathing and sad to say, it has yet to affect anyone.
I am very, very sorry this is a place you love to go and a thing you love to do.
Make fun of me as you like JJ. I don’t smoke…anything.
The cotton in my clothes was not treated with insecticides for fun. Treating for termites is not a sport. Do you have coyote penning too? They are allowed to chase an animal all night long and that is not cruel?
I suggest you not worry about what I spend my time doing. Animal rights and cruelty matter to me and I will speak up when I see fit and I do not hide in the safety of anonymity to do so.
Humans are not helpless, defenseless nor lacking in resources. Humans make choices. I understand exactly what people who hunt with dogs do. I have heard stories of what happens to a dog who cannot perform or makes mistakes too. I have a good life and I will use it to help animals as I see fit. “Your probabably” not a very good guesser. Drama queen much?
Matthew Lewis for President 2016!
Comparing fox hunting to dog fighting is just stupid. I run my dogs on the inside as well as on the outside. I turn my dogs loose in the yard as puppies and they start off chasing squirrels, rabbits, birds, etc, and then they move on to running deer and foxes because it is their natural instinct, I dont train them to do it. I competition hunt on the outside and inside and at the end of the day I don’t say I have a better dog because it has killed the competitions dog, but instead he/she just hunted a little harder or ran a little faster. Every fox that I have seen has been in great shape and tons of places to hide. I enjoy taking my dogs to the pen because I enjoy watching them do what they love to do and know they have a safe place and not bothering someone else or laying in the highway dead. Nothing breaks your heart more than having to get a dog out the road that is dead.
Danid W. Rutledge&
Anna Amati
Broke Rite Kennels
You’re against hound hunting or hunting for sport all together. It makes your opinion invalid, because your opinion isn’t just about the Fox enclosures or coyote enclosures, it is about hunting practices that you do not see as fitting or sporting. This is about Fox enclosures. If you don’t like hunting for sport or hunting with dogs, then you cannot justify your opinions about anything dealing fox enclosures. You are biased.
Foxes are killed by Coyotes for sport and elimination of competition – in the wild. Wolves kill Coyotes for sport and elimination of competition. Wolves are killed by Grizzlies and Mountain Lions for sport and elimination of competition. All of which happen in the exact same manner – they are hunted, they are chased, and they are killed.
Fox enclosures are not the wild. They are given every chance to survive with assistance from the hunters themselves. They are fed regularly, they are vaccinated against disease, they are wormed to safe guard against internal parasites. They have drinking water. They have safe houses. If they become stressed or tired they seek shelter away from the hounds. The intent of these fox enclosures are not to train the dogs to kill, but to lock on to a scent and work that scent. Showing that they have a good nose, enough speed to be the front dog, and the endurance to last. All the fox has to do to stop the race or the chase is to go under ground or up a tree where the dogs lose the scent.
The fox already has their champion, the fox hunters care more for the fox than the average human being.
Hey Sandi.
I am a former city girl. I love animals and would never do anything that was considered cruel or neglectful. I worked for a veterinarian for 9 years before moving to the country. I had no clue what field trialing was. I was very leary about attending one because like you I didn’t want to see anything cruel. I went and was very relunctent. The first thing I saw when I got there were families hanging out and the fellowship was awesome. Everyone knew each other and although no one really knew me, they welcomed me like I was part of the family.
At daylight I was taken to where the hounds were cast. I did not know what to expect. When the hounds were cast it was coolest sound I have ever heard!!! They were giving what they call a full cry. It was an awesome sound. It is their song. I was then taken around to a spot on the outside to watch as the dogs were scored. I was scared I might see something I didn’t want to. I saw a fox walk out and stand there looking back. He didn’t seemed too concerned. He smelled the ground and walked off in one direction and then back tracked and went in another. I could barely hear a few dogs. I counted to Mississippi 45 until I saw the dogs smelling the scent the fox had left. They went in the direction the fox first left. They didn’t go the way the fox actually did. The fox outwitted them big time. After that, I relaxed and had a wonderful time. It was not what I thought it was at all. There was no blood, no dead foxes, or no cruelty.
After that day, I attended may hunts, I learned to judge the hounds and even did some of the scoring for these events. Being in the enclosure is awesome. It is almost a 1000 acres of natural habitat and to see the fox running around tricking the hounds, and lounging in the trees taking a nap it is an expierence that I truly treasure.
Being an animal activist doesn’t mean you have to deplore everything. These are fox that are cared for. They were saved from being shot as nusiences, being hit by cars, and removed from heavily populated areas. They are vaccinated against rabies so they will never have to die from that horrible disease. They raise young here as the preserves are not open year round. They are regularly wormed and are fed every single day. They actually live the life of Riley and are producing a more healthy off spring. I personally think it is a win win for the fox.
They will live a longer more healthy life. 1000 acres of natural habitat with creeks and ponds with no natural predators to kill the young is good for the fox. The purpose of the preserves is not just for Field Trials. It also serves as a natural habitat for these animals to thrive.
I was not “Comparing fox hunting to dog fighting”, I was asking how torturing one animal is different from torturing another. I think penning a fox to allow dogs to chase it “is just stupid”. Dogs should not be allowed to “run” any animal. It is cruel. I will speak against it and I will vote against it every time. I am sure you are one of those people who believes your animals ONLY chase what they are “supposed” to chase and stay on the property you tell them too. Many people insist dogs and roosters fighting is “their natural instinct” too.
What YOU do as an individual does not mean ALL owners do so either. Dogs are allowed to run rampant. Dogs do chase horses, other dogs and cats and come onto property they are not welcomed on. Owners do punish, drop as strays and even stomp to death a dog that performs badly on a hunt. I have lived in the country all my life, I know quite a lot I wish I didn’t. Many also allow their dogs to bite and tear the raccoon, bear or fox up if the “pack” can get it. Do not try to act as if all hunting dog owners are responsible. The same mentality allows the factory workers and slaughter house employees to stomp, kick and beat on defenseless chickens, pigs and cows even knowing they are on their way to die too. Man is exceedingly cruel to animals, because they can.
It is great that you want your dogs to have a “safe place” to be themselves. I want that for the fox. Penning him for your amusement and your dogs “fun” is cruel and wrong IMO.
Most NON hunters do not realize the impact that stopping dog hunting and training of dogs in FOX PRESERVES would KILL Virginias economy. Virginia hunters spend LOTS of money on license (resident and non-resident), dog food, gas, lodging during field trials, vet bills, shots and wormer, food/drinks, dog collars, TRACKING collars and tracking devices,hunting clothes,aluminum dog boxes and LOTS of other goods and materials. It would also cost many joblosses something EVERYONE knows we cannot afford in todays economy.
I am not against hunting. I already said that. You against whatever animal you are stalking in their environment is not the same as chasing the animal to ground with dogs and then dispatching it. One is a sport, the other is a canned kill.
Sorry Debbie Allen, but yes, being an animal activist does mean you have to deplore everything that is intentionally cruel or exploits defenseless animals. You have chosen to ignore that these pens are training the dogs for real hunts in which the fox is heavily outnumbered and does not survive. It is a stepping stone to a canned hunt that does not end in a “cared for” fox.
They were “saved” to be used and terrified for entertainment. Being shot as a “nusiences” happens once and it is over. Unless of course someone cannot shoot well. A quick death is far more humane IMO. You are lulled by the nice trappings and family atmosphere and are willing to overlook what happens to the fox who is chased to exhaustion and cornered. Why not do it with people who have free will and can volunteer for the experience if it is all so wonderful? Why not rig the pen with scent but no real fox to terrorize like they train a myriad other animals?
I am profoundly sad to see you claim to love animals and justify this prequel to hunting with dogs for real, but that is your choice; as decrying this cruelty is mine.
Oh well then, if it creates jobs, by all means continue to terrorize defenseless animals for your entertainment, silly, silly me.
I support training of hounds in the fox preserves as a safe alternative to free cast hounds in the wild where the safety of all animals and hunters stand a much greater chance of danger and confrontation, ex. vehicles, property owners,non-vaccinated animals. I do not see myself as barbaric or any of the other names we are labeled as and by no means are my hounds any where close to being killers…lol my biggest fear is getting licked to death by them.
Sandi,
Can I please clarify a comment you made in your above post. “It is a stepping stone to a canned hunt that does not end in a “cared for” fox.”
You are referring to what goes on in a preserve as a “canned hunt”. According to the definition from the HSUS website, a “canned hunt” or otherwise known as a “captive hunt” is where shooters pay to kill animals trapped behind fences, in otherwords, kill them with guns, not dogs.
The term “canned hunt” refers to the shooting of animals on game farms or hunting ranches that are in the business of breeding or buying exotic animals so that “hunters” can pay to be guaranteed a kill. A canned hunt is a “hunt for animals that have been raised on game ranches until they are mature enough to be killed for trophy collections.
So again, NO ONE that participates within a preserve pays to kill anything. Killing with guns or any other means, whether it be man or beast, is not what takes place within a preserve. KILLING is NOT the objective and never has been. So if you are against what you refer to as a “canned hunt”, I happen to agree with you on that issue for I do not approve of that either. I understand your position and I am not here to critize you for your position but I do like to get the facts clarified.
I am not sure what word to use for the hunting with dogs trained to scent, so canned hunt was the closest thing I could liken it to. If there is a scent, a trained pack of dogs will find it, chase it and tree or corner it so in that sense IMO there is little to no “sport” involved. Just from observation, it is the favored sport of pot-bellied men, the dogs do all the work, but that too is a generalization. It is as close to a canned hunt as it can be I think. I am not saying that happens at the pens. The pen training helps the dogs achieve their goal when they move on to the actual hunts none of you are admitting to. That is why I called it a “stepping stone”. It may not have been the perfect word, but it was the best analogy I have.
I am tired of this berating me for daring to disagree with your “fun times”. I am done here. Pat each other on the back and say you won.
I have one final thing to say, of you can prove that fox pins are cruel and that we torment animals then you should be able to prove that catch and release fishing is cruel also. Both fox and fish are in enclosed natural environment in which fish are in ponds and generally have no escape route. The only difference is that the fish it caught and handled and the foxes are never harmed. Oh and by the way sandi. 90 percent of people who have dogs that they use in field trials are usually never ran outside of the fox pin to keep the dogs from being injured or be a nucense to slmeone
Canned hunting is illegal in most states – they are for the kill in a small fenced in area where the animals are used to human interaction so they don’t scare easy. Some chain animals up or release them from cages right in front of the hunters to shoot. Shows you don’t know much at all as it is a huge difference. If that is the best analogy you have, then you’re wrong to the extreme.
This is what’s wrong with the world – too many people read biased articles and think they are experts on the subject. These people then turn around and continue the chain of misinformation and rights are taken away unjustly. Get your facts straight, stop relying on your bleeding heart, because there isn’t much logic in that.
#40 The fox feels fear & panic, but the trimester fetus does not?
Oh, Mrs. Saunders, we have a corelation. One you cannot rationalize.
One last thing, where did the HSUS get this footage?
http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/fox_penning/
test
The truth about fox preserves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ9UfsIAM9s
I thinks its crazy that anyone would think about banding fox pens. I personally think they shouldnt I have two young children and I much rather them be in a fox pen instead of them on the roads doing things they shouldnt be doing. An by having fox pens open this is a good family event that you and your children can enjoy together and you know they are safe.
I am willing to bet anything you would like to bet that the video you posted did not come from within the pin but came from someone hunting who shot the coyote. And the video is wrong. Because deer and bear are prohibited from entering the pins and if they are spotted or somewhere that they can enter is found it is required that the pin be shut down until the fence is fixed or the animal is safely caught and unharmed and moved back into the wildlife. I paint numbers on my dogs every year to see which ones I still have out when I’m trying to pick them up and I have killed many of coyotes in front of my dogs and the dogs have gotten to them before I could and in result there natural instinct has kicked in and in result you see what the video showed. They are also very incorrect about the pins being a tight enclosure and diseases because the pin owner does everything in there power to keep from spreading the disease within the pin by vaccination
Jim Lucas, since you insist on changing this discussion, I will repeat, the fetus is not the only consideration in the situation. It would be a whole lot easier if it were. If you can figure a way that they are the only consideration, you will have my undying support for ending abortion. I mourn any sudden death for God’s creatures, most especially those that are for fun or entertainment. I do not think abortion falls under that rubric. It is more than a little repulsive that you need to keep bringing that here.
Scent dogs, most especially the ones that will not be used to hunt in the wild, do not need to be baited with live foxes or coyotes, that is a choice the human fun seekers make.
#64 [And] Mrs. Saunders I did not change the subject, but extended.
You offer moral indignation to support a position on a subject you admittedly know little.
My point is that IMO such indignation is quite flexible given the political situation.
To bemoan the chasing of a fox because you “oppose” animal cruelty, or is it (whether you realize or admit) all things hunting, etc.?…..while not recognizing the death of abortion is pretty mixed up moral priorities IMO.
I am not a screaming, thumping of anything, anti-abortion advocate. I do take issue with those who push their opinions on others, again about subjects they do not understand, on moral grounds…..while IMO ignoring any such same morals when it suits their political perspective.
There is a name for that.
Since Ms. Saunders has enough time on her hands to blog as many times over the last few days as she has I question whether she can find the time to thoroughly vet the facts on a subject before taking a stand. Perhaps she doesn’t want the facts to confuse her. HSUS and Ms. Starr are masters of hyperbole and histrionics. The animal rights activitists are also masters at drawing support for their local attacks from a national network. Consequently, it would be interesting to know how many of those who voted against fox preserves in the related poll are truly Virginians. The fact that a number of other states don’t permit fox preserves has no bearing whatsoever on Virginia’s decision to not only allow them but to regulate them as well. If there was something so horribly wrong going on in these preserves, the Game Department would have shut them down a long time ago. Let’s let the wildlife professionals base their decisions on science, not emotional outburts of an ignorant, uninformed and primarily over-suburbanized audience. To paraphrase the late naturalist, John Madson, I’d have more respect for my critics if they wore out the soles of field boots as often as I do.
#64 So your moral compass tells you that any act is OK so long as it only affects the subject being directly affected?
And further, that the destruction of a fetus does indeed affect only the fetus?
Jim Lucas, you did change the discussion.
I offered my opinion on the “Point/Counterpoint” subject matter. My supposed “moral indignation” is not the topic or the point. I am not clear on how much you all believe needs to be “known” beyond what has been offered. What fool thinks I would change my mind if I observed the cruelty in person? The size of the cage or the caring of the attendant is not the issue.
In point of fact, my “indignation” is quite inflexible and causes me no end of grief, with you as a prime example. The “political situation”, whatever it is you mean by that, has nothing to do with it. Do you suppose no Democrats or liberals participate in their “sport”?
I decry the chasing of an animal with dogs because I oppose animal cruelty, I do not consider hunting to be animal cruelty (although there may be cruelty involved). You may repeat that dishonest portrayal as often as you like, you cannot make it true.
I have never failed to recognize the death of a fetus that occurs in abortion. I have admitted it many times so no one is confused or pretends I am. In a perfect world neither animals nor a fetus would be threatened with pain or death. We do not live in a perfect world and I am not Solomon. I chose to allow a woman to decide the fate of the potential life in her womb. If it were not in her womb, I would not grant her or anyone else that choice. I did not decide the biology of womankind. No one here has claimed the fox is in their womb and how to treat it should be their decision.
Odd that you claim to “take issue with those who push their opinions on others”, yet challenge my every opinion even in threads where you admit you “feel no need to chime in on“. I reject your assertion that this is a subject I do not understand. How many babies have you carried in your womb? Does that disqualify you from discussing abortion? Your expert opinion notwithstanding, I have never ignored any morals and certainly not to suit my “political perspective”.
My “moral compass” tells me that Jesus said, “Go and sin no more”, and “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” I am not worthy to say different to anyone. You are right, “There is a name for” those who do.
Chuck Ellsworth, how about you worry about your time and I will worry about mine? If you people cannot stand one dissenter, how certain can you be that you are right?
I have vetted the facts, I told you I grew up around this type of behavior, I am VERY familiar with hunters, hunting and hunting dogs.
The fact is that foxes and other animals are trapped, penned and used for the amusement and sport of people with “hunting dogs”; it is not rocket science. They used to have picnics and parades at public lynchings, I am still against them.
Given the fees they make off sportsmen I am pretty sure the Game Department would sell their grandmothers to make money.
Good luck keeping your sport within the confines of supporters. I am not sure that “wildlife professionals” is fair and I know their decisions are not based on science. What science says no animal minds being chased by a braying pack of dogs?
Much like the abortion issue that Jim Lucas keeps dragging in here, like it or not emotion, animal welfare, the definition of sport and yes, apparently, ignorance all have a role in whether this sport continues for the long term.
To paraphrase me, I did not come here looking for respect and I got just what I expected.
#58 “The fox feels fear & panic, but the trimester fetus does not?”
OK Jim, if you insist on going there, let’s put it this way:
The trimester fetus feels fear & panic, but the cow, pig, turkey, or chicken that got slaughtered to make the meat you eat does not?
I’m a all around hunter and have all kinds of hounds. Myself and other peers know that all pens are safe. We all have been judges in field trails and never have seen game get caught. We believe people that have never been in a hunt shouldn’t be able to ban something they have never seen.KEEP the pens going.
How did a hunting thread get hijacked by abortion? There’s a name for someone who does that.
Please be aware that this thread is about fox penning. Further abortion discussions should be taken to more appropriate threads so we can remain on topic here. Further off-topic comments will not be approved.
All I want to say is this…..We live in a free Country that is ailing something terrible. When an organization with millions of dollars thinks nothing of putting folks out of work by forcing their beliefs onto others that do not share them is as about as inhumane as you can get. Lots of folks have built their business around this and we have tried to explain our missions and debunk the untruths being told here. We DO NOT deserve the horrible things that are said by people who have never put on a muck boot and seen for themselves. I love animals as much as anybody can, but I would never put them ahead of any American that is out there trying to earn a living or trying to take a little recreation time for themselves. It scares me to think that people are more worried about a cause than they are about their neighbor. We as hunters and field trialers love both. No one has the right to take it away from us, just because a big Charity organization doesn’t like it and has convinced others that it is a den of tourture and murder. The Fox Preserves are our right and no one should be able to take it away because of their off based beliefs.
I have to ask of Ms. Starr and others critical of fox preserves if they have witnessed dogs being run in a preserve? I have and offer my observations. I have judged and participated in several competive hunts in several different preserves. I have yet to see a fox caught. What I have seen is hounds being exercised and allowed to do what comes naturally to them without the danger of contact with roadways or hazard of civilization. As indicated in the factual letter from Mr. Burch, the purpose of the training preserves is not to catch the fox. I have observed the fox trotting some distance ahead of the hounds, and observed multiple areas provided for the fox to escape a hound. It appears to me the fox outsmarts the hound.
It seems obvious that many without knowledge or experience in the use of fox preserves are offering opinions and those with an anti-hunting agenda are eager to provide criticism. I suggest we continue to allow the Virginia Dept.of Game and Inland Fisheries to continue to regulate the fox preserves, just as they have been. From what I have observed the enclosures are well managed. I would not participate with my family in, or observe an activity that allows the activities alleged by Ms. Starr.
The animal rights folks have levied some pretty healthy claims. If they have evidence that, within VA’s enclosures, there are foxes being torn apart by hounds…..then they have a strong case for closure. But, I’ve only heard the claims, and not seen the evidence.
When I last researched, there were approximately 10,000 fox preserve acres enclosed in VA. If the 5,000 number is accurate, that would equate to one fox for every two acres. Assuming that number is accurate, since preserves are required to report this information to the DGIF, and the information would then be public, the disposition of the foxes is critical to the survival of the pens.
As an avid hunter, and one that loves to hunt deer with hounds, I’ve always recognized the benefit of enclosure. But, if it’s discovered that enclosure fox stock sees a much higher rate of mortality inside the enclosures, than would be the case outside, I could no longer be pen supportive. As I fear supporting the pens, provided fox mortality inside is significantly higher than outside, would be supporting a form of hunting that could prove to jeopardize all hunting.
Mr. Burch makes the assumption that if the foxes weren’t trapped live, they’d then simply be trapped and killed. I question the validity of that statement, as I am confident that, without the need for fox preserve chase stock, VA would see a significant reduction in the number of foxes trapped.
It truly all comes down to proof. Proof on the part of the animal rights interests of inhumane activity, and proof on the part of the preserve operators to prove humanane activity.
As an avid houndsman, foxhunter and outdoorsman I oppose any legislation regarding the closure of foxhound training preserves in Virginia. As i write this I can only say that the training preserves have been wrongly portrayed by the humane society as well as other misinformed individuals. The purpose for these enclosures is not intended to maim, kill or harm the fox as it has been falsely reported for example. A caged fox is released in front of a pack of hounds THIS IS FALSE!!! Hounds are released and run the fox to exhaustion to be caught THIS IS FALSE!!!
The majority of the foxes that are caught and are introduced into the preserve were caught because of being a nuisance for one reason or another an would’ve most likely been shot, poisoned or some other means of removing it from causing a problem, yet instead it was trapped, fed daily, wormed and taken care of better than if left in the nuisance situation. Besides the running of the fox,the hounds that are used are bred for this and have been for a very long time. I care as much for my hounds and their breeding as anything. Nothing bothers me more than seeing a dog that isn’t given an opportunity to do what our lord put it here on earth to do. I prefer running in the training enclosures to protect them from possibly being killed by an automobile etc.
Finally I will reiterate my opening sentence. I OPPOSE ANY LEGISLATION REGARDING THE CLOSING OF FOX PENS IN VIRGINIA
I know several individuals who judge field trials held in fox pens and have never heard of a fox being caught, much less torn to pieces. Ms. Starr needs to present some hard facts, not her imagined truth. Before you take anything as fact, go and see for yourself. This is nothing more than another attempt to end hunting one step at a time.
I hope people take the time to get facts from both sides because A LOT is being put out there about Fox Hound Training Preserves that is not true. Me and my twin brother love our dogs. We love to listen to our dogs run in the fox pen, we love to go to field trials. It’s something I enjoy doing with my dad and my mom and my little sister and is something we enjoy doing as a family and my whole family enjoys. We meet a lot of new people and make a lot of new friends from the fox pen. If it was cruel of barbaric my mom would never let us be involved in it. I have been running in the fox pen with my dad as long as I can remember. I have never seen a fox get caught by the dogs. Yet you have people who have never been to a fox hound training preserve in their life telling you how bad they are and say certain things happen and go on but they have never been. Please ask yourself this: how much sense does that make? Please leave us alone and leave our sport alone, we aren’t doing anything wrong.
There is nothing “cruel” about fox pens. i have never ever seen a fox get caught by a dog. Think about it.. i live near a tyson chicken plant in Hanover County, and i seen trucks always bringing live chickens in to be processed. So why is the HSUS not attacking them? oh thats right, because they more than likely eat chicken. well just remember.. those chickens, or cows, or pigs did NOT commit suicide. Fox pens in Virginia have to be a MINIMUM of 100 acres. I really dont like how these people can judge a fox pen when they more than likely have never been to one. I live in an area of A LOT of people that run in the 3 local fox pens around here..and if you dare kill a fox thats not in a pen you’ll be discriminated. Basically, a fox has a much better life in a foc pen because its not getting shot at by hunters and they get fed everyday and meds each year to keep them from getting worms. and fox pens are putting a lot of money into the Virginia economy (hunting license,dog feed,dog meds,collars,gas riding around looking for them) take away fox pens your taking away all that money in the economy
I skimmed over this blog and found it amazing that there was only one poorly spoken,educated or defended activist defending HUSA and their lies. There have been many great posts from the hunting community and it makes me proud to be a part of such a well spoken group. This is a heritage and a God given right to participate in this sport. We love our dogs and this sport and the comments have described this well. I would like to add that I love breeding and raising fox hounds. They are bred and designed by God to track,trail and hunt for the game. It is amazing if you sit down and think about the depth and sense it take for a dog in this sport to master the game. We take excellent care of our family of hounds. We feed the best we can. We excercise and condition our hounds. We support the community. We participate in many charity events. We spend hundreds of dollars a year with our dogs and yet we are being attacked by a few. WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THESE DOGS IF THEY TAKE AWAY OUR RIGHTS TO RUN THEM? NO ONE IN THE HUMANE SOCIETY CAN TELL ME THAT. HOW CRUEL IS IT TO PEN A DOG FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE THAT WAS RAISED TO RUN? When we stand together as a community, we are strong. Just like the pack running together. My last comment is- Virginia is for fox hunters. Please promote the good citizenship we all display.
First off All yall Liberals and activist need to quit worrying about something that you all dont know anything about and worry about your own personal lives and how you can help get the economy out of the gutter. You all know nothing about fox pens, if you honestly did you would not even bring up this subject. I welcome all of you to come judge for yourself, visit a fox pen and observe. What you would see would be a huge family that love their hounds and love the wildlife and would not like to see any of the two hurt. Read your history on fox hunting. Your founding fathers that started this country were BIG Fox Hunters with Hounds. Google the history of the American Fox Hound. Dont cast judgment on something that you know nothing about. Dog fighting is another story that has nothing to do with this. I personally own pitbulls, over 20 fox hounds, labs, jack russels etc. I have ran dogs competition, I’ve pleasure ran my hounds and will continue no matter what you all think, but I plead with you misguided people that if you think fox pens are barbaric in nature or feel that concerned about the situation you should go visit a pen in Virginia, go to a hunt, then call me and tell me how feel. I promise you will never feel the same way again. P.S. Worry about yourself, dont cast judgement before gaining personal knowledge and leave Virginia Fox Pens alone.
I truly cannot tell if that was satire or sincere, but it was funny. I’ll leave it alone, but I do appreciate the smile it gave me.
It’s still bascially all comes down to the preserve operators defending why one fox per every two acres is required to run the pens…..and the opposers ability to prove that the foxes are being harmed.
The opposers definitely have the greatest burden of prove….since they are the group that brought the attention to the subject.
It would seem if their claims could be supported by evidence, the opposers would have presented that evidence at the public hearing that was recently held by the DGIF? I’m confident the opposers lack the evidence they’ll need. But it will be interesting to watch unfold.
I agree with Tony on all points, except the animal rights folks couldn’t care less about the welfare of foxes. They are interested in ending hunting and fishing for good and this is a small play in the overall game. Go look at the HSUS’s stance on hunting and fishing. They are 100% against both. It is time to ban together and defend our outdoor heritage at every turn. If you let them win here, one day you will be defending bow hunting and bass fishing.
The animals in any training grounds are keeped up just as good as any house pet. Their meals are provied for them. In the wild they have to fight every day for their life.
hsus, aspca, there all the same aganist everything that has to do with hunting, fishing ! its the same as anything else something that somebody likes somebody else hates and just cause they hate it they going to try to stop it just cause they dont like something, u people are the killers what was it that peta tried to do to ringling bros circus? all based on lies and bribery trying to buy off someone to lie ! fox preserves are not death pens they cost owners to get game to run why would they want it killed, 5 dollars to put a dog in it and 100 dollars for the game seems like that would be a loss of 95 dollars why would someone do that, i have been to hundreds of them theres more places for the game to get away , grey fox can climb he a member of the cat family , and a red can dig a hole to china, plus he has lots of things to get in, get the facts right and dont lie just to get your way
This is a barbaric sport!! ALL PENS SHOULD BE CLOSED ASAP!!!!
Kent Kruse, thanks, but I’d disagree with you about the interest’s of some animal rights groups. I met with HSUS’s State representative at length about the enclosures. I illustrated the benefits. This was her response……we don’t care how much you hunt, we only care about the removal of the fences. She directed me to their efforts in FL. Once the pens were closed……HSUS removed itself from the debate.
Every hunter should recognize their duty to fight for the entire hunting community. But they need to understand how that fight impacts the hunting community. IMO, the enclosure operators should file charges against those that have levied the animal abuse claims. But I have questions, and we all should have them, why would the operation of the preserves require a fox population density of 1 fox per every 2 acres over a four year period? If the fox population was that concentrated on the outside……..you’d be kicking foxes up like coveys of quail.
There is an important lesson that we all have learned from the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance……which is, when an act of hunting jeopardizes your future you need to fight it. If fox pens, because of mistreatment of foxes, proves to threaten the future of hunting, then I’m confident that the right thing for the entire hunting community to do is ask that the pens be closed. If the animal right’s interests can’t substantiate their claims……then the entire hunting community should come down hard on them.
Every hunter should visit HSUS’s website and enroll as a member. Don’t contribute any funds…..but having a membership voice as a hunter is powerful.
Tony R, I am not connected with or a member of any animal rights group. I speak for myself and myself alone.
I do not believe that by “joining” the HSUS you are getting a voice because their lobbyists just say “we speak for _____ members and they want what HSUS wants”. Just my opinion of course, but I think it is valid.
If you want to support and keep hunting, you will need to take the inhumanity component out of it to the utmost extent you can. Small animal penning for the purpose of fun, amusement or “sport” is not helping your cause, that I can guarantee. Hunting with dogs is not helping your sport be “sporting” either. No way in hell the National Forests and licensing folks are going to let go of the money they make off hunters easily but if enough of us clamor (and nothing makes us clamor like video of a pack of dogs killing a small animal), we will be heard. Do you get what I am saying here?
Hunting for sustenance and for sport is a well known American Heritage issue and it will be hard to kill (could not resist), because even animal rights folks like me still support it and accept it culls the herds and keeps the population of some animals in balance and disease in check. We ALL need to work hard on keeping habitat for hunters and animals, in many ways sensible hunters and animal rights folks can indeed work together. I believe we should. I also believe those who use the forests should pay fees like hunters do. Who does more damage, a kid on an ATV or a hunter? Which one pays for the privilege?
Scent dogs can be “trained” and exercised without torturing any living animal. You know it, I know it and HSUS and PETA knows it. Their days are numbered and they do not have the numbers to stop it.
I will march for Second Amendment rights AND gun control. I will march for Animal welfare rights AND hunting. They do not have to be mutually exclusive, unless that is just the way you want it. Sadly, far too many do.
FOX PINS IN VIRGINIA ARE HERE TO STAY. That being said let us not forget that the VA. state dog is the AMERICAN FOX HOUND. The training preserves are great places to enjoy our foxhounds an to be able to grade these hounds with our own eyes or judges that we respect and trust.Our outside hunting lands are closeing in on us daily with highways land developers and housing being the big 3 in a line of many things to overcome on the outside.I have hunted and judged in VA.pins for over 15 years and i can without a doubt tell you there are more foxes killed by cars on VA.highways in one month than have been caught/killed in all of VA.pins in the last 15 years. Thanks for reading . Robbie Davis
Sandi Saunders….thanks for the thoughtful post. I disagree with membership in HSUS. Hunters that are members do have a voice…..but like with any membership, they have to make their voice heard.
If the chase stock (foxes and coyotes) don’t experience lower welfare inside the pens compared to outside the pens…..then it would impossible to argue that the pens are bad for chasing foxes. If the foxes are harmed or killed inside the pens at a rate higher than ouside……then hunters should join the argument to remove the fences.
I get the impression that some people believe that if the fences are removed fox hunting will end. This simply isn’t the case……fox hunting is huge in VA.
The disposition of the preserves should rest solely on the welfare of the wildlife within the pens. What would be the position of those that oppose the pens if it were discovered that the enclosures provide a better level of welfare than what’s found ouside?
The most important question to both the support and opposition is what’s happened to the 5,000 foxes. I’ve hunted all of my life, and only seen a handful of foxes. The operators have got to justify why stocking would require a population density of 1 fox per every 2 acres over a four year period. If they can prove lack of harm……IMO the opposition doesn’t have much of a case.
If the opposers have the ability to prove that dogs are killing the foxes, or that the activity causes so much strain that foxes experience premature death…..then hunters should take sides with the animal rights interest, as doing so would be a step to protect future hunting rights.
It’s impossible, without knowing what’s happening to the foxes, to make the right decision, because taking down the fences would only place the same activity on the outside as opposed to the inside.
What should be of great interest to those that have followed VA’s Sunday hunting legislative battles during the recent past, is the complete lack of any mention of Sundays.
The Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance and the Virginia Farm Bureau Federation have both, for years, taken a hard stance against Sunday hunting, on a basis of faith. Yet neither has taken any Sunday position with regard to the operation of the preserves. It would seem that if their “faith based” opposition to Sunday hunting was genuine, it would definitely apply to hunting on Sunday that involved containment?
Certainly, if the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance truly believes that Sunday hunting represents a threat to the futute of hunting with hounds, they’d recognize that Sunday hunting within the enclosures represents a much greater threat to hound hunting’s future?
The lack of acknowledgement of Sunday associated with the pens by both the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance, the Virginia Farm Bureau, and the legislative committee that killed last year’s Sunday hunting bill, tells me that there is much more interest in exclusive access to lawful Sunday hunting, then there is a “faith based” opposition to expanding Sunday hunting regulations in VA.
Fox pens where created to resolve conficts between landowners who didn’t want stray dogs on there property and dog owners. They’re a place where houndsmen can go and not worry about there dogs getting stolen or causing conflicts, and just have fellowship with other houndsmen. Pen owners have alot of money invested in the game between feed and vaccines. The last thing they want is to lose a fox or coyote. The folks opposing fox pens have never been to one and watched what goes on. They have this idea of a fox in a small pen full of dogs, with no way to escape. This idea just isn’t accurate.
During the 2012 General Assembly Session the Senate Agricultural Committee heard lengthy testimony on SB 202 introduced by Senator David Marsden from the urban part of Northern Virginia. SB 202, introduced on behalf of HSUS and the Richmond SPCA, would criminalize both fox preserve owners and trappers who stock or maintain these preserve enclosures for the purpose of dog training or competition. Instead the committee referred the bill to DGIF for study, but HSUS and the Richmond SPCA will bring it back in January during the 2013 GA session.
Let me say that almost all SPCAs do great work taking care of local animal shelters especially where there are none. Many SPCAs are funded by the locality. For instance Lynchburg City Council recently gave the Lynchburg SPCA $177,000 from their city budget to help the animal shelters. These SPCAs are not looking for glory or a newspaper picture. They are really helping to save small animals by medically treating them and through their adoption program.
Testimony given by HSUS and the Richmond SPCA calls fox preserves “Virginia’s dirty little secrets,” “savage entertainment,” “same as cock fighting,” “an embarrassment to the state of Virginia.” Preserve owners were called “un-Christian like,” “animal abusers” and many unmentionable derogatory names. To that end HSUS and the Richmond SPCA have demanded a moratorium on preserves and have even suggested muzzling dogs to prevent noise.
Giving testimony one lady indicated that she has been kept awake all day and night because of the howling dogs, and some have suggested that they have heard the screams of foxes being viciously torn apart. This hysteria is relayed antidotally or through common deceit, but some newspapers keep printing it.
Needless to say, foxpens are considered “low hanging fruit” so who will be the next? We can only guess its next target – eliminating dog lots, prohibiting the transportation of hounds, shutting down trapping, closing hunt clubs, eliminating bear chasing with dogs? While HSUS says it is not trying to ruin hunting, it appears to be their aim as in other states.
http://www.humanewatch.org
While DGIF has thoroughly studied the issue during the interim and while the Foxhound Training Preserve Owners’ Association has developed stringent preserve guidelines, HSUS says that only an absolute moratorium and muzzling hounds would suit them. They have lobbied their case to DGIF, the DGIF Board, the Governor, the Secretary of Natural Resources, legislators and the press, but a rare few or no HSUS members have visited a Virginia foxpens or requested to be a judge.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BJ9UfsIAM9s
To place a moratorium on a legal sport is an indication that there is something to hide – some “dirty little secret.” To muzzle a running dog either in a preserve or out in the field is inhumane. It is VFTPOA’s position that if there is any discrepancy between the pen, the regulations and the permits, then DGIF should investigate that single activity and not punish all pens that are operating in accordance of the law.
HSUS says they have the money to kill penning and defeat legislators who do not support their issues. Threatening Virginia’s legislators? Yes. We say that while we don’t have the income or members this out-of-state organization has, we do have pen owners, dog owners, hunters, hunt clubs, veterinarians, store owners, hotels and others who have had a major economic influence on mostly rural localities.
HSUS indicates that the economic benefits only a few Southside, Southeast and Southwest Virginia counties so that doesn’t excuse what they scream as the “brutality of training and competing foxhounds.” We are not urban and we are not the “rich.”
Here are a couple of things you should do:
1) Go under http://www.change.org ; browse “petitions.” Under “search petitions” add “fox preserve” and vote. Your information is not disclosed to the public unless you want it to be. If you want to see what HSUS and the Richmond SPCA are doing search “fox pens.” This issue will not go away unless hunters and the NRA provide support.
2) By writing a simple letter to the editor of your daily and local newspaper – http://www.usnpl.com;
3) Meeting sports editors in your vicinity, tell them the truth and invite them to tour a pen or to be a judge;
4) Contact DGIF Board members – http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/about/board;
5) Contact the Governor at http://www.governor.virginia.gov ; the Attorney General’s office http://www.oag.state.va.us;
6) Call your legislators and members of the House and Senate Agriculture committee http://www.lis.virginia.cov “standing committees” “House and Senate Agriculture” and click on a name for contact information. They and the DGIF Board have the final vote on whether to close preserves or not.
7) Rally hunters, dog owners, trappers and hunt club members to do the same. Introduce the influential community members to fox preserves and how the issue would affect the future of hunting and the economy of Southside, Southeast and Southwest Virginia. Don’t be hysterical or antidotal. Tell them the truth. E-mail them pictures, permit info, geo maps, etc.
8)Don’t forget blogging any news article you can find, Facebooking and calling in your friends and organizations who understand hunting and what’s at stake.
United we can have a powerful voice in the Virginia legislature and most are seeing through the deceptions.
I feel that is unfair for a person that has never been to a fox preserve or a field trial to suggest that is animal cruelty. Mrs.Starr’s statements in her article are completely misleading as to what really occurs in a preserve. For example foxes in preserves survive at a much higher rate than they do outside of the preserve. Here are the reasons why they have constant food to eat as fed to buy pen owners,also there are medicines added to the food every few monthes to keep ensure the foxes keep good health, there also are no vehicles flying down the road to take out a fox. There are natural habitats made by the foxes themselves as well as what are called feeder boxes for their habitat. If anything Mrs.Starr should be promoting the fox preserves and how they are able to save thousands of foxes lives. Many people who are against the preserves are really just misinformed and if they were actually informed i believe their opinions would change in favor of the preserves. I also want to bring to light the huge impact that these preserves have on the economy. The hunters have to buy dog food,collars,many have tracking systems,field trial equipment such as paint and dye,foot medicines, flea and tick prevention. Many other products as needed. Hunters go to a field trial and stay in hotels for anywhere to 1 to 7 days depending on the hunt. The hunters have to eat so restuarants make money to feed them. The pen owner makes money for having the hunt at his pen. The pen owner has to pay taxes which pays government officials salary. Its all a trickle down effect and you have to know the true facts and be informed before you can make a decision. I love the fox preserves and the friends that i’ve made through the years. The memories that i’ve shared with my dad and uncle will be something that i will never forget.
Alright, your reasoning is hunting with dogs is inhumane, to the dog as well as the animal that is being pursued. Does that include the pointers, retrievers, underground/earth dogs like the dachshund. A lot of the Terriers were bred to kill and rip apart rats and mice – are you against the ones that do that too? Border Collies, Australian Cattle Dogs, Great Pyrenees, and such herd and protect sheep and cattle from coyotes and wolves – killing the coyotes if they have to. They routinely bite the cattle they are herding to show dominance. They are exposed to heat exhaustion, being trampled and kicked. Killed.
German Shepherds are often used for Law Enforcement and Military. They are exposed to dangerous situations where they are shot, run over by cars, and stabbed. Surely for the sake of your argument you can’t overlook those, just because you find that they are beneficial to human service.
What about Huskies and Malamutes? The ones that aren’t in the back yard, the ones that compete in the Iditarod, they are expected to travel great distances, in the cold. Some develop open and bleeding sores. Some go into shock. Some break legs. That is just for entertainment and sport, but a dog is involved, some of them don’t recover from their injuries. Do we ban that too?
Do you think all dogs should be lazy dogs lying around the house? Dogs are bred to do work and for companionship. Some dogs are bred for companionship, but that wasn’t their primary task.
Your arguments have nothing to do with Fox Preserves, they are just the easiest target. You seem to be against all working dog functions and all hunting dogs. You don’t see the ‘sport’ in it and that’s fine. That is your opinion, you are entitled to that opinion. Like I am entitled to my opinion that Golf isn’t a sport. Just because I don’t see the sporting component in it though, doesn’t mean I don’t think it has any merit.
Fox Preserve and Hound hunters aren’t asking you to go against your opinion. We are asking that you hold your tongue until you have first hand experience instead of being spoon fed information from the likes of the HSUS, PETA, and other animal rights/welfare activists that are biased. It only makes your own voice biased. And if you are against ALL hunting with hounds, then you do NEED to step back and say that you’re against ALL hunting with hounds and STAY out of our business completely, because that is your opinion and with that opinion you cannot justify your stance on Fox Preserves – because your opinion blinds you to the facts.
Ms Starr what happens if the enclosures are “banned” and that banning results in more death and harm to foxes? There are far too many unanswered questions for either side to make the best decision at this point.
Sandi Saunders you make great points in post 90. I respect your reasonable approach to the debate. But the debate can’t be reasonable for either side without facts. I respect the General Assembly for considering the bill, and have greater respect in their decision to study the preserves. The information that these studies will gather, is the key to making the right decisions with regard to the preserves disposition.
To simply close down the preserves without knowledge of how their current operation impacts VA’s fox population, or knowledge of how the closure of the preserves will impact VA’s future fox population, would be irresponsible at best.
Information is key to these decisions, and quite frankly the information we need likely doesn’t exist.
IMO, the animal rights interest made a huge mistake when they failed to compile statistical data that supports their claims. Their most damning claim is that foxes are being injured and/or killed within the inclosures. But they don’t seem to have strong evidence that this is the case in VA’s preserves. They don’t seem to have any comparison data to prove that closing the preserves wouldn’t increase what they are hoping to prevent.
It would be wrong for either side to jump to conclusions, wouldn’t you agree?
Tony, just a couple informational points: Increased population density in a fox pen improves the running (pretty intuitive) but also spreads out the running pressure on individual animals. We can manage increased population density by providing for the needs of the game,,,i.e. food, water, shelter,& parasite control. All of which are provided for in excess in every pen I have ever been in (which is quite a few). The average lifespan of a fox in the wild is 1.5-3yrs depending on which source you refer to. I’m not certain of the stocking rates in the pens but 1-2 per acre every 4 yr.s appears to exceed the average foxes lifespan in the wild. To me this says they are as well off (longevity wise)or better off in the pen as compared to the outside. We must also remember there are many reasons for mortality most of which are the same in or out of the pen. Escape must also be added to the equation,which is a significant problem.
Sandi, I understand your position, I disagree, but understand. I’m commenting, not to try and persuade you but to hopefully enlighten just a little. I believe that you are relying a little heavily on hearsay and rhetoric and, because of lack of investigation, a lack of understanding. Do you realize that the ‘training’ is for other pen hunts in which the activity is exactly the same. In other words, there is no ‘kill’? The dogs are merely scored in competition,which dog crosses the path first. The origin of fox hunting may have been for sport and the goal to kill the fox(in Europe to rid the countryside of chicken coop bandits and usefulness of the pelts). Killing is not and has not been the goal in this country for a long time.
Have you considered that the fox is a predator that chases down and kills its prey? Oh yes, they often play the cat and mouse game with it also, maimed and bleeding. Nature is a cruel neighborhood. Life revolves around chasing and being chased, killing and being killed. This is the life of a fox whether he is in a pen or not. We’ll talk about where his chances are best a little later. Yes, animals do experience stress and, I believe, to some degree emotion. However, theirs is not the same as humans who have a higher degree of understanding. Some of their stress is alleviated in the pen (necessities provided for). Foxes are very intelligent and this makes them an excellent quarry. This is actually a minimally consumptive sport in that very few are ever caught(I know this is not what you believe, but it is actually fact).
You may argue the point of ‘understanding’. If they truly had a higher level of understanding then why would so many foxes on the outside try to get into the pens? Do you realize that some of the highest fox densities are around pens and that foxes often try to get “in” the pens on a regular basis? I have witnesses of foxes that have escaped through damaged fences trying to get back into the pen they escaped from. They don’t realize the are in an enclosure, only that they have encountered a barrier to what’s in front of them.
I rarely hunt in pens but their contribution to the DGIF,the local economy and the community are far reaching and even more important in this struggling economy.
I love the foxes as well as my hounds, even with their lack of understanding. That’s what makes my dog an ever-loving, always forgiving companion who is always happy to see me. I also realize that they are part of nature and it is part of their nature to chase (as well as lick their backsides and even eat their children!)(I’m referring to the fox and the dog here, this is not a jab regarding any other political difference that we may have.)
I guess my bottom line with this thought is that God gave man dominion over animals. The Bible says it and I hope we can agree on the inerrant word of God. We bear some similarities but, as much as we love them, they are not human. The personification and inference that they have some sort of emotional equality to humans is a reach at best. They live in a harsh world, kill and be killed and they have no moral issue with it. That’s why God gave them canine teeth.
I think we need to listen to the biologists and game professionals and our decisions and comments be based on science and facts, not emotion, conjecture and rhetoric. I make this last statement to both sides of this issue. (and some politeness wouldn’t hurt. Manners cost nothing)
Bryan Morris thanks for the information. I’ve posted often that we simply don’t have the data to know what the best decisions are at this point. When I met with VA’s HSUS top representative to discuss the disposition of the enclosures I expressed the concern that they could be pushing an agenda the brought greater harm to foxes.
This is my thought…..without information, removing the fences may make some feel better about the issue, but may result in worsening conditions for the animals they want to protect.
But, I believe that the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance has created a duty to force the closure of the preserves on Sundays…..since, for years they and the VFBF have taken a “faith based” hard opposition stance against hunting on Sunday. I also feel that since deer hounds are also trained in the enclosures, those enclosures with deer populations should be forced by the DGIF to follow deer hunting season regulations for their county of residence. I understand that the intent is not to chase deer within the enclosure, even when deer hounds are being trained, but the enclosure itself sets a much different set of environment circumstances than would exist outside of the wire. Even if the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance wouldn’t agree to my thought’s, definitely, any enclosure with coyote populations should remain closed during Sunday hours since it’s unlawful to chase (without intent) coyotes in VA on Sundays.
Thanks again Bryan, and I look forward to reading your comments.
Unfortunately, and like a lot of “political” issues these days, people tend to make up their minds based more on emotions than facts. Ms. Starr probably knows the facts about the fox “enclosures”, but she chooses to ignore the facts because they won’t advance her narrow agenda. Enclosures are not inhumane, nor do they run counter to the “hunting tradition” as Ms. Starr suggests. I get my beagles in shape by chasing rabbits in enclosures before the hunting season. Neither the rabbit, or the beagles are injured. In fact, I believe the rabbit enjoys the chase as much as the beagles. Ms. Starr, just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean you know what you are talking about.
I rarely use the fox pens to run my dogs but the ones I have used were professionally run and the foxes were fed better than most house pets. As long as the pens and animals in the pens are maintained and managed properly I don’t see why anyone would object. The problem is that if some people don’t participate in a certain activity and they are not interested in what you love doing then they do whatever they can to shut it down. I don’t like to knit anymore but I’m not going to try to ban knitting needles because they can be used as weapons. Seems they could be great swords, huh? Thanks to the hunting license dollars that millions of sportsman give every year this country is blessed with more wildlife gamelands and wildlife in general than ever before. Can HSUS give me an AMEN on something instead of always being so negative about everything??? Leave the pens alone!