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	<title>Comments on: Short takes</title>
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		<title>By: Sandi Saunders</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149587</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandi Saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No President can &quot;fight effectively&quot; with an obstructive and destructive Congress.  We are not a dictatorship.  As George Bush lamented, that would make it a lot easier...  When a system is inherently skewed to the rich, of course they &quot;bounce back&quot; first.  THAT is the problem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No President can &#8220;fight effectively&#8221; with an obstructive and destructive Congress.  We are not a dictatorship.  As George Bush lamented, that would make it a lot easier&#8230;  When a system is inherently skewed to the rich, of course they &#8220;bounce back&#8221; first.  THAT is the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Lindholm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149582</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Lindholm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To #18 (Sandi):  You&#039;re making my point for me:  &quot;&lt;i&gt;The earnings of the top 1 percent took a knock during the recession, but have bounced back. In contrast, the average working family’s income has continued to decline through the anemic recovery.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;  If Obama were &quot;fighting for the middle class&quot; &lt;i&gt;effectively&lt;/i&gt;, we would see better results than this.

Instead, we&#039;ve gotten the &lt;i&gt;weakest&lt;/i&gt; recovery since the Great Depression:  http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economywatch/economy-may-be-permanently-stuck-slow-growth-mode-918079, with middle class incomes in &quot;continued decline&quot;.  Competence matters.  Good intentions alone are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; enough.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To #18 (Sandi):  You&#8217;re making my point for me:  &#8220;<i>The earnings of the top 1 percent took a knock during the recession, but have bounced back. In contrast, the average working family’s income has continued to decline through the anemic recovery.</i>&#8221;  If Obama were &#8220;fighting for the middle class&#8221; <i>effectively</i>, we would see better results than this.</p>
<p>Instead, we&#8217;ve gotten the <i>weakest</i> recovery since the Great Depression:  <a href="http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economywatch/economy-may-be-permanently-stuck-slow-growth-mode-918079" rel="nofollow">http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economywatch/economy-may-be-permanently-stuck-slow-growth-mode-918079</a>, with middle class incomes in &#8220;continued decline&#8221;.  Competence matters.  Good intentions alone are <i>not</i> enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandi Saunders</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149572</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandi Saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You credit the bubble and dismiss the crash.  Typical.  I do not think you will see anything you do not want to see in any chart or story.

From your NYT link:
&quot;&lt;em&gt;The recession seems to have cemented the country’s income and wealth inequality, not reversed it. The top 10 percent earn a larger share of overall income than they have since the 1930s. The earnings of the top 1 percent took a knock during the recession, but have bounced back. In contrast, the average working family’s income has continued to decline through the anemic recovery.&lt;/em&gt;&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You credit the bubble and dismiss the crash.  Typical.  I do not think you will see anything you do not want to see in any chart or story.</p>
<p>From your NYT link:<br />
&#8220;<em>The recession seems to have cemented the country’s income and wealth inequality, not reversed it. The top 10 percent earn a larger share of overall income than they have since the 1930s. The earnings of the top 1 percent took a knock during the recession, but have bounced back. In contrast, the average working family’s income has continued to decline through the anemic recovery.</em>&#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Lindholm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149544</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Lindholm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 04:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149544</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To #16 (Sandi):  I &lt;i&gt;did&lt;/i&gt; look at the past two decades.  Perhaps you should too.  Specifically, look at the SSA link again, and check out the chart at the very bottom.  If you look at the &quot;median-to-average wage&quot; ratios (which we want to be &lt;i&gt;high&lt;/i&gt;, not low), you&#039;ll see that the overall trend during the Bush years (a 1.1% drop over 8 years) was less bad than either the Clinton years (a 3.0% drop over 8 years) or Obama years (a 1.4% drop over 3 years).

And I haven&#039;t forgotten the crash.  However, the recession&#039;s been over for 3.5 years now.  What happened to that strong economic recovery the administration predicted (with annual growth rates above 4%)?  A president that fights for us sounds nice, but I&#039;d be happier if he fought for effective policies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To #16 (Sandi):  I <i>did</i> look at the past two decades.  Perhaps you should too.  Specifically, look at the SSA link again, and check out the chart at the very bottom.  If you look at the &#8220;median-to-average wage&#8221; ratios (which we want to be <i>high</i>, not low), you&#8217;ll see that the overall trend during the Bush years (a 1.1% drop over 8 years) was less bad than either the Clinton years (a 3.0% drop over 8 years) or Obama years (a 1.4% drop over 3 years).</p>
<p>And I haven&#8217;t forgotten the crash.  However, the recession&#8217;s been over for 3.5 years now.  What happened to that strong economic recovery the administration predicted (with annual growth rates above 4%)?  A president that fights for us sounds nice, but I&#8217;d be happier if he fought for effective policies.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandi Saunders</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149542</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandi Saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 04:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Maybe you should look back over the last two decades to see how unfair your &quot;past three years&quot; selective look is.  You may want the nation to forget the economic crash and the repercussions, but we didn&#039;t and we won&#039;t.  

We need a President to fight for us because Congress has not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe you should look back over the last two decades to see how unfair your &#8220;past three years&#8221; selective look is.  You may want the nation to forget the economic crash and the repercussions, but we didn&#8217;t and we won&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>We need a President to fight for us because Congress has not.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Lindholm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149541</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Lindholm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 03:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To #8 (Sandi):  The article you quoted said, &quot;&lt;i&gt;In fact, independent voters in our survey, by 54 to 40, said it was more important for a president to have &#039;the willingness to fight for middle-class families&#039; rather than a &#039;technical understanding of the economy&#039;.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

That may be the most depressing thing I&#039;ve read this &lt;i&gt;entire&lt;/i&gt; year.  Having noble intentions is all well and good, but without &lt;i&gt;competence&lt;/i&gt;, well-intentioned efforts often do more harm than good.  Alas, emotion-based politics has triumphed over rational thought.

In the past three years, real wages and savings have fallen: http://seekingalpha.com/article/310575-real-wage-deflation-savings-rate-decline-raise-yellow-flags.  In the past three years, income inequality has increased sharply, reaching highs not seen since the Great Depression: http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html and http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/17/business/economy/income-inequality-may-take-toll-on-growth.html?_r=0.

So yes, Obama has been &quot;fighting for the middle class&quot;.  And doing so rather badly as measured by multiple key metrics.  A solid &quot;technical understanding&quot; of the economy would surely help, but we&#039;ve seen problems in that regard for some time:  http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/romerbernsteinoct12.jpg.  Unfortunately, voters who seek leaders with technical understanding appear to be in the minority.  [Sigh...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To #8 (Sandi):  The article you quoted said, &#8220;<i>In fact, independent voters in our survey, by 54 to 40, said it was more important for a president to have &#8216;the willingness to fight for middle-class families&#8217; rather than a &#8216;technical understanding of the economy&#8217;.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>That may be the most depressing thing I&#8217;ve read this <i>entire</i> year.  Having noble intentions is all well and good, but without <i>competence</i>, well-intentioned efforts often do more harm than good.  Alas, emotion-based politics has triumphed over rational thought.</p>
<p>In the past three years, real wages and savings have fallen: <a href="http://seekingalpha.com/article/310575-real-wage-deflation-savings-rate-decline-raise-yellow-flags" rel="nofollow">http://seekingalpha.com/article/310575-real-wage-deflation-savings-rate-decline-raise-yellow-flags</a>.  In the past three years, income inequality has increased sharply, reaching highs not seen since the Great Depression: <a href="http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html</a> and <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/17/business/economy/income-inequality-may-take-toll-on-growth.html?_r=0" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/17/business/economy/income-inequality-may-take-toll-on-growth.html?_r=0</a>.</p>
<p>So yes, Obama has been &#8220;fighting for the middle class&#8221;.  And doing so rather badly as measured by multiple key metrics.  A solid &#8220;technical understanding&#8221; of the economy would surely help, but we&#8217;ve seen problems in that regard for some time:  <a href="http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/romerbernsteinoct12.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/romerbernsteinoct12.jpg</a>.  Unfortunately, voters who seek leaders with technical understanding appear to be in the minority.  [Sigh...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sandi Saunders</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149539</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandi Saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 03:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, perhaps clarification of our POV on terms is in order.  

I consider right wingers to be the extreme right. The hate filled, judgmental, if not outright racist, certainly fearful and suspicious of any minority. The Fascists, Dictators, Authoritarian and Christian Right reside here. 

I consider conservatives to be the champions of small ineffectual government, isolated foreign policy, what they believe is &quot;sound money&quot;, what they believe is a &quot;free market&quot;; socially awkward regarding civil rights and discrimination to say the least. Libertarians and true minimalist purists reside here. 

I do not think this nation will elect either or a combination of the two for President again.

Republicans and Democrats are merely points on the spectrum of our political structure with differing ideas of moderate to hard line on every issue and policy we deal with without being led by their extremes in the end.

Left wingers are those who might well be among the Communist, Socialist, Marxist and devout liberals that the right wing hates and fears.

Extremes and the many under them, are what is harming this nation&#039;s viability, capability and the path forward. They both try to manipulate the voters and the systems. I am sick of them both.

There was no way to really be sure what Romney would be if elected, but it is beyond doubt that Obama is no left winger.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, perhaps clarification of our POV on terms is in order.  </p>
<p>I consider right wingers to be the extreme right. The hate filled, judgmental, if not outright racist, certainly fearful and suspicious of any minority. The Fascists, Dictators, Authoritarian and Christian Right reside here. </p>
<p>I consider conservatives to be the champions of small ineffectual government, isolated foreign policy, what they believe is &#8220;sound money&#8221;, what they believe is a &#8220;free market&#8221;; socially awkward regarding civil rights and discrimination to say the least. Libertarians and true minimalist purists reside here. </p>
<p>I do not think this nation will elect either or a combination of the two for President again.</p>
<p>Republicans and Democrats are merely points on the spectrum of our political structure with differing ideas of moderate to hard line on every issue and policy we deal with without being led by their extremes in the end.</p>
<p>Left wingers are those who might well be among the Communist, Socialist, Marxist and devout liberals that the right wing hates and fears.</p>
<p>Extremes and the many under them, are what is harming this nation&#8217;s viability, capability and the path forward. They both try to manipulate the voters and the systems. I am sick of them both.</p>
<p>There was no way to really be sure what Romney would be if elected, but it is beyond doubt that Obama is no left winger.</p>
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		<title>By: 89Hoo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149536</link>
		<dc:creator>89Hoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 02:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149536</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To clarify, Sandi, I didn&#039;t stay home, but neither did I vote for Romney (or Obama).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To clarify, Sandi, I didn&#8217;t stay home, but neither did I vote for Romney (or Obama).</p>
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		<title>By: 89Hoo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149535</link>
		<dc:creator>89Hoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149535</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sandi, if the neoCon/GOPers are blaming me and other they err spectacularly on the following front: the assumption that conservatives should blindly flock to the GOP&#039;s liberal candidate just because he is represented by an elephant instead of an ass. But it is unlikely they do blame me because they still are blind to why they lost. Since I cared for neither Obama nor Romney I don&#039;t care if they do blame me, though it would be refreshing if they actually did figure it out.

When they stray so far from conservative ideals - small government, humble foreign policy, sound money, free market - to the opposite (large intrusive state, belligerence abroad, central banking) they will not get conservatives. They, though, think they need to move to the left, to the ground occupied by their ideological comrades in the CPUSA/Dem Party ranks...thinking that those constituencies will suddenly start supporting them instead. It&#039;s asinine.

My point on the NYT is to point out that the media - whether from the left or the right (Fox &quot;News&quot;) - don&#039;t get it either, and repeat the mantra that the GOP is a collection of right wing extremists. Being basically unimaginative and incurious and more court reporter than reporter, the media repeat the lies.

I guess, to be clear, we should clarify connotations: I generally use &#039;right wing&#039; and &#039;conservative&#039; mostly as synonyms (neither is a dirty word, in other words), but I make a clear distinction between both those terms and &#039;republican&#039;.

I agree that a conservative will not &quot;hand things to business&quot; but Romney is a perfect example of a republican engaging in crony capitalism (no, not the free market). Not a conservative value.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandi, if the neoCon/GOPers are blaming me and other they err spectacularly on the following front: the assumption that conservatives should blindly flock to the GOP&#8217;s liberal candidate just because he is represented by an elephant instead of an ass. But it is unlikely they do blame me because they still are blind to why they lost. Since I cared for neither Obama nor Romney I don&#8217;t care if they do blame me, though it would be refreshing if they actually did figure it out.</p>
<p>When they stray so far from conservative ideals &#8211; small government, humble foreign policy, sound money, free market &#8211; to the opposite (large intrusive state, belligerence abroad, central banking) they will not get conservatives. They, though, think they need to move to the left, to the ground occupied by their ideological comrades in the CPUSA/Dem Party ranks&#8230;thinking that those constituencies will suddenly start supporting them instead. It&#8217;s asinine.</p>
<p>My point on the NYT is to point out that the media &#8211; whether from the left or the right (Fox &#8220;News&#8221;) &#8211; don&#8217;t get it either, and repeat the mantra that the GOP is a collection of right wing extremists. Being basically unimaginative and incurious and more court reporter than reporter, the media repeat the lies.</p>
<p>I guess, to be clear, we should clarify connotations: I generally use &#8216;right wing&#8217; and &#8216;conservative&#8217; mostly as synonyms (neither is a dirty word, in other words), but I make a clear distinction between both those terms and &#8216;republican&#8217;.</p>
<p>I agree that a conservative will not &#8220;hand things to business&#8221; but Romney is a perfect example of a republican engaging in crony capitalism (no, not the free market). Not a conservative value.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandi Saunders</title>
		<link>http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/2012/11/short-takes-5/#comment-149531</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandi Saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 00:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/?p=35021#comment-149531</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So the TP/R&#039;s should be blaming you for Romney&#039;s loss?  Well then, thank you very much!

Seriously, we need to either agree that links are not required or stop pretending that bias (perceived or real) indicates they are wrong. It doesn&#039;t.  

The New York Times may be progressive, but a &quot;paid agent of the state&quot; speaks to a conspiracy mentality that should be beneath intelligent folks.

Maybe if their are similar analysis on both &quot;sides&quot; of the media means we should mayhap pay attention?  

They will not swing to a stronger &quot;conservative&quot; when a stronger right winger is all they want IMO.  I do not yet equate conservative with right winger, but it is a thin line from where I stand.  A true Conservative will not hand things to business either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the TP/R&#8217;s should be blaming you for Romney&#8217;s loss?  Well then, thank you very much!</p>
<p>Seriously, we need to either agree that links are not required or stop pretending that bias (perceived or real) indicates they are wrong. It doesn&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>The New York Times may be progressive, but a &#8220;paid agent of the state&#8221; speaks to a conspiracy mentality that should be beneath intelligent folks.</p>
<p>Maybe if their are similar analysis on both &#8220;sides&#8221; of the media means we should mayhap pay attention?  </p>
<p>They will not swing to a stronger &#8220;conservative&#8221; when a stronger right winger is all they want IMO.  I do not yet equate conservative with right winger, but it is a thin line from where I stand.  A true Conservative will not hand things to business either.</p>
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