The Roanoke Times: RoundTable

Comments

# 1

[April 29, 2007 7:29 PM]

John H.

I know a bit about magnetic loop detectors, and it is very tricky to get them adjusted right. The sensitivity can be turned up to detect bicycles, but then they can also pick up cars passing in opposite lanes if they are too sensitive, causing the signal to improperly give a green to a car that's not there. I used to ride my bike to work in Virginia Beach. It was about 2 miles each way, and thankfully the couple of traffic signals I had to drive through would detect my bike. It made commuting that way a breeze. But in a car, it does get annoying to be sitting at a red light watching the side streets go green with nothing there though...almost as bad as watching someone get skipped. I guess like life, everything is about finding the right balance.

# 2

[April 29, 2007 11:16 PM]

C Ramsey

I don't think this problem will ever be completely resolved as many modern road bikes don't have many components that will trip a magnetic loop detector. Mine is carbon fiber and titanium frame with alloy components, none of which will activate a magnetic traffic signal.

It is annoying when the lights won't change, but is not nearly as annoying as the ignorant drivers who throw things or try to run cyclists off the road.

# 3

[April 30, 2007 7:47 AM]

Josh

Question: Would Christian have waved the cyclist on, had the bike displayed a 'W' sticker?

# 4

[April 30, 2007 9:43 AM]

Jack

Question #2: Would Christian have run the cyclist down, had the bike displayed a 'NRA' sticker?

# 5

[April 30, 2007 9:59 AM]

C. Trejbal

Jack, obviously not; that would be illegal. Perhaps now the J's might contribute something substantive and interesting to the discussion.

# 6

[April 30, 2007 10:02 AM]

C. Trejbal

Ramsey, that's a good point about the modern bikes not having much metal. I had thought about that when I was writing but ran out of room in the column.

I wonder if we did better bike lanes around here if they could put extra sensitive sensors only in the bike lanes and then leave the car lanes less sensitive.

# 7

[April 30, 2007 12:13 PM]

Kathie

Just a minor point but a bit irritating - The road you drive to work on every day is not "Franklin Avenue;" there is no such street in C-burg. It's "North Franklin Street." There is also a "South Franklin Street" that leads away from the courthouse going south.

# 8

[April 30, 2007 12:13 PM]

John H.

I would have to suppose that is why I've seen some places use bike actuation signals, similar to pedestrian push-button systems, for bikes at signals. It eliminates the sensor problems and other difficulties since most localities add bike lanes after the fact, rather than plan for them before construction. But I doubt that unless the number of bicyclists goes substantially up or they become a lot more vocal that anything like that would be done. It also gets more complicated with the way bike lanes are striped, since any area with a right0turn lane is supposed to have the bike lane sandwiched between the through and right car lanes. The cameras may be the only detection system that could work, provided they ever get the bugs worked out of the grayscale detection system.

# 9

[April 30, 2007 12:30 PM]

C. Trejbal

Kathie, mea culpa. You are, of course, correct. My brain confused Franklin Avenue, one of the main drags in a city I used to live in, with North Franklin Street in C'burg. You are perfectly right to find my mistake irritating. I apologize.

# 10

[April 30, 2007 1:57 PM]

Allen Muchnick : →http://www.vabike.org

Responsible agencies can cost effectively enhance bicycle activation of magnetic loop vehicle detectors by 1) ensuring that the loop sensor is adjusted to detect a waiting bicycle and 2) installing a small bicycle-specific pavement marking to identify the sweet spot for placing bicycles over the wires. Common aluminum bicycle wheel rims provide ample metallic material quite close to the ground and should be adequate to activate the loop detector if the wheel is placed *directly* over the wire. Unfortunately, most bike riders do not recognize magnetic loop detectors, much less know how to activate them. Cyclists and others can report nonresponsive VDOT traffic signals at http://www.vdot.virginia.gov/travel/citizen.asp or by calling 800-367-ROAD.

# 11

[April 30, 2007 2:28 PM]

Josh

Christian,

We're just taking off on your March 25 column in which you said you refuse to yield to vehicles "plastered with stickers promoting candidates or views with which I disagree".

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/110226

# 12

[April 30, 2007 2:59 PM]

C. Trejbal

Yes, I understand that Josh. As you know, I never advocated doing anything illegal in that column, hence the oddness of Jack's question. Frankly, I have no interest in rehashing a column from a month ago. If you have something to contribute to the discussion at hand, I'm sure we'd all love to hear your thoughts on bicycles and traffic lights rather than your silly gamesmanship. If you wish to comment on that old column, you can do so at here.

# 13

[April 30, 2007 3:01 PM]

C. Trejbal

That's a great idea, Allen. Do you know if anyone has used such markings to indicate the sweet spot for magnetic loops. I had not considered that as an option. It's simple, cheap and could help a lot.

# 14

[April 30, 2007 3:01 PM]

Will

Quite frankly, its the ones with the "W04" and "Bush/Cheney" stickers that I find to be generally the worst drivers on the road. They typically tend to be aggressive, rude, careless (usually have a cell phone stuffed in their ear or a hamburger stuffed in their mouth) and will tend to cut you off when trying to merge into traffic rather than giving a break. They seem to think that turn signals are unimportant and seem to believe that there's no one else on the road but them.

Thats the voice of experience talking after having logged thousands of miles driving in FL, AL, MS, LA, TN, VA, NC, SC and GA.

On a lighter note, does anyone remember when "tail-gating" was something other than partying in some sporting event parking lot???

# 15

[April 30, 2007 7:59 PM]

Allen Muchnick : →http://www.vabike.org

A bicycle-specific pavement marking for magnetic loop wires has been part of the national Manual of Uniform Traffic Controls and Devices (MUTCD) since 2003 and is thus acceptable to VDOT. Here's a link to one of several good technical articles on the Internet: [http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm] .

# 16

[April 30, 2007 8:13 PM]

Josh

Will,

That's a crock. Sounds like wishful stereotyping to me. W supporters are richer, better educated, more religious and likely more considerate than the average person.

# 17

[April 30, 2007 9:23 PM]

C. Trejbal

Allen, I happened to be chatting with the head of the Blacksburg public works department this evening and mentioned this idea to him.

# 18

[May 1, 2007 8:30 AM]

Geoffrey Knobl

Many times I've sat at traffic signals waiting for them to turn green only to have it skip me two or more times until a car drives up behind me. I think it's high time signals were tuned properly to pick up bikes or metal cleated shoes.

# 19

[May 1, 2007 9:21 AM]

Will

Josh....

Richer, better educated, more religious??? Those are supposed to be qualities that make them less aggressive on the road???

Son, you've got your head back in that low grade sand again. I'm talking about real time experience of driving on the road. Take an extended drive down I-65 from Nashville to Mobile sometime; or perhaps a drive down I-75 from Gainesville to Naples; and God forbid a drive along I-40 from Memphis connecting with I-81 up to Roanoke.

Trust me, I've seen the best and I've seen the worst. I don't think money, education or religion make much difference. I've seen some hypocritical religious folk, some mighty stupid educated folk and some extremely ill-prepared rich folk. The stickers on their cars just make them more visable.

# 20

[May 1, 2007 9:57 AM]

Vabiker

There is at least one device that claims to be able to trigger the electromagnetic sensors - called a "Green Light Trigger". It appears to be a magnet mounted on the bottom of the bike designed to break the electromagnetic field - it is advertised for use with motorcycles - don't see why it wouldn't work for bicycles as well. Anybody tried this to see if it works?

# 21

[May 1, 2007 10:49 AM]

Josh

Will,

Wow. You can see through the windshield and tell all these characteristics about people?

I say as a rule folks who have money, education, and religion are nicer, more responsible, and more careful than those who don't.

Which neighborhood would you want to live in Will? With which group would you want your kids to associate? From which group would you want your financial adviser to come from? Your family doctor? Your dentist? If a people were behind you in a dark alley, from which group would you prefer they be from?

But all this changes because of a 'W04' sticker? And you say I'm partisan?

# 22

[May 1, 2007 10:50 AM]

Mitch

I just want to comment that this is the most reasonable, considerate article on bicycling and road use that I've ever read in a mainstream newstream. And from a non-cyclist to boot! My hat is off to you for actually viewing things by putting yourself in someone else's shoes -- it is something that few people seem able to do.

- Mitch

# 23

[May 1, 2007 11:40 AM]

Will

Josh...

I can't tell a thing about someone's religion, wealth, education or social graces by looking at them through the windshield of my car. I can tell you if they are driving in a manner thats safe, courteous, respectful and non-aggressive. You're the one that brought up this characterization about "W" supporters being all that.

All I pointed out is that in my experience driving thousands of miles across the southeast U.S., I encounted more aggressive, less courteous drivers that also had the "W04" or Bush/Cheney stickers on their vehicles.

As for who I'd rather have as my doctor/dentist/financial advisor/person watching my back? I would want the person most qualified in their particular field of expertise. I rarely (if ever) ask the politics of my doctor or dentist. Usually the topic comes up in general conversation anyway. As you might have already figured out, I'm not shy about expressing my feelings on a wide variety of issues.

As for who I would want watching my back? I'll give you a very clear example: It would be someone like my Dad. He was a life long Democrat, having passed in 2000 and having supported even Bill Clinton. He was the kind of man who crawled in a burning car after an accident to hold his hand on the carotid artery of the driver after a fence board had impaled him. He didn't ask the politics of the victim, he just did what was right.

So...that's the kind of person I want watching my back and I would bet that's the kind of person you'd want watching yours.

# 24

[May 1, 2007 12:19 PM]

Josh

Will,

As usual, you missed it. The choice of the two 'groups' I was referring to were those who were successful, educated, and religious versus those who were unsuccessful, uneducated, and non-religious.

And as for who said what, your quote:

"I've seen some hypocritical religious folk, some mighty stupid educated folk and some extremely ill-prepared rich folk. The stickers on their cars just make them more visable [sic]."

I repeat my question. How can you discern those characteristics? By looking through the windshield?

# 25

[May 1, 2007 12:32 PM]

C. Trejbal

Josh and Will,

As entertaining as your back-and-forth is, you have wandered far off topic. The fluid nature of such discussions sometimes leads to this, but it's time to steer this board back on track.

Josh gets the last word here. If you wish to continue this debate, do it on the bumper sticker column's board. I've copied Josh's most recent post there for your convenience. The appropriate discussion here is about bikes and traffic lights.

# 26

[May 2, 2007 9:45 AM]

Lisa

Christian,

Once again this week as I read your column I wondered why you even live around here. Every week it seems that you are putting Christiansburg down about something. We all wish you would go back where you came from or quit writting negative columns about Christianburg. The people that live in Christiansburg like things the way they are and your stupid column is not going to change things!!!!

# 27

[May 2, 2007 10:17 AM]

C. Trejbal

Lisa, what exactly is anti-Christiansburg about wanting roads set up to handle all legal vehicles including bicyclists?

# 28

[May 2, 2007 10:38 AM]

Will

Lisa...

I don't know that Christian is anti-SW Virginia. I really don't think so insofar as he did choose to live here.

What Christian talks about (in sometimes not so eloquent terms) are changes in an area that actually might improve the quality of life. Perhaps his experience (as has mine) has allowed him to live in places that offer certain things that make life better.

Something as simple as adding a cyclist roadway might actually be pretty good. It would make life safer for the cyclist and make congestion a little less stressful for a driver.

After being away from this area for almost 10 years and then coming back, there are a lot of things I like but then again, there a lot of things I'd like to see us do better.

Guess my point is that change can be daunting...it can even be scarey. But think about it this way. The folks that planned our communities 125 yrs ago probably would say the same things about the changes we've come to embrace today.

The one thing I've learned is that the only thing that's constant is change whether we like it or not.

# 29

[May 4, 2007 2:28 PM]

Devon

I appreciate you bringing attention to the subject of sharing the road with cyclists! I have never had the exact problem you wrote about, but plenty of others on my bike rides around Christiansburg and Blacksburg. I have been honked at and yelled at, told to "Get a car!", and basically treated, by some, like a second-class citizen because I am on the road on my bike instead of in a car. My husband has witnessed drivers attempting to push cyclists off the road, literally, with their car. This is, of course, an extreme example, and (I hope) an isolated incident. BUT the fact is that there are some people on the road that just don't believe cyclists have the right to be on the road, and they are not afraid to make that known to us.
I like the suggestions and research the commenters on this forum have made. On some roads a bike lane would be great. My husband and I live in Christiansburg and work in Blacksburg, and we are fortunate enough to be able to use the Huckleberry for almost the whole distance of our commute. BUT, beyond riding to work, there are very few places to which we can ride due to heavy traffic on the main roads, with no space on the shoulders for a cyclist to safely travel. If there were a bike lane on some of these main roads, maybe we could have more commuters. Everyone says, 'well, we will consider installing a bike lane when there are more cyclists on the road'. Did you ever think that maybe the cyclist are already there? If you made the roads more accessible to us, we could start to use them!
The people who don't like us cyclists on the road DO have some valid reasons. We're slower, less visible, and on a lot of the roads around here, we're in their ONLY lane. This goes for even the bigger roads like Peppers Ferry - it's only one lane each way. So every time I ride on that road the car either has to drive slowly behind me, or attempt to pass by veering into the oncoming lane. If we had a bike lane, I wouldn't have to be in their way!
I'm not saying a bike lane would to solve all our problems, but I think we should at least look into implementing some of the suggestions discussed in this forum. In my opinion, a bike lane would be a good (cost-effective) compromise. Meanwhile, thank you to all the drivers who are patient and kind enough to share the road!

# 30

[May 6, 2007 9:26 AM]

Will L

Let me make sure I understand, bicycilists pay how many road taxes? They pay how much for tags? Their insurance costs how much per year? County/town sticker? It seems to me that someone is out for a free ride...at my expense. It will be my tax dollars that will pay to install any new sensors or to upgrade any existing system. I do believe that Virginia law says they're supposed to walk their bike across the intersection. In my opinion, if they want to reap the harvest of taxes paid, they should be required to by tags, license and insurance like everyone else. They are second class and will continue to be until this happens. They should pay their fair share.

# 31

[May 6, 2007 9:39 AM]

C. Trejbal

Most adult bicyclists also own automobiles and pay all the other taxes you do, Will L. Kids, obviously, do not. Should we not provide safe travel for kids on bikes? How about pedestrians? They don't pay for any tags. Maybe we shouldn't do crosswalks, sidewalks and buttons to activate crossing signals.

You're missing part of the point, though. It benefits you, the motorist, to have someone on a bike. That's one less car on the road and one less person burning gas.

# 32

[May 6, 2007 10:54 AM]

Will L

Whose kids are riding on the highways near traffic lights, and where are those parents? YOU have missed the point here. I have NEVER encountered a pedestrian standing at a trafic light waiting for it to turn. Pedestrians don't impede the flow of traffic. If a pedestrian is in a crosswalk, absolutely, we need to stop (which by the way is something most motorists don't do). If a pedestrian is walking down the road in front of me, that's another situation altogether. Drive (or ride your bike)over to the VA Tech campus, and see how many of those people own cars--for most of the students on bicycles, this is their only form of transportation. My last point: if bicyclists shouldn't have to pay for licenses, tags and insurance, because they are saving me from the dreaded emissions, and they are saving gas, then maybe people driving electric cars should be exempt from these things as well. If it's going to use public highways, it should be required to follow all laws and guidelines established for vehicles.

# 33

[May 6, 2007 11:00 AM]

C. Trejbal

Absolutely bicyclists should follow all the laws. And the laws say they have as much right to be on the road as a car. You, however, seem unwilling to make it so that they can obey the laws and enjoy their legal right to be there.

# 34

[May 6, 2007 12:24 PM]

Will L

It seems that you are at a loss of reasonable argument here. I have said nothing to indicate to you that I am unwilling to allow them to obey traffic laws. The problem we have encountered here this morning is that you have your opinion and are completely unwilling to debate the point. That being said, I will no longer engage in this petty conversation. I have said what I feel just as you have. I would have been willing to continue a good volley with you, but you have started to make less and less sense. When the Roanoke Times wants to get serious about their reporters and their reporting, perhaps they will give ME a call.

# 35

[May 6, 2007 12:53 PM]

Kendra

I agree with Will L 100%. If it has wheels, and it's on the road, it needs to be tagged and insured, no questions asked.

# 36

[May 6, 2007 3:45 PM]

C Ramsey

Will L,

While your making your learned points about how cyclists are taking a free ride at your expense, could you tell me two things.

1) Other than the sensor changes discussed here, which, by the way, are hypothetical, what do bicycles do to the road that requires maintenance costs? Taxpayer money in this arena is typically devoted to repair damage caused by trucks, cars and winter weather. Bicycles aren't heavy enough to cause damage to asphalt, so they bear very little responsibility for needed repair work. As far as insurance goes, no insurance company will insure a bicycle other than on a homeowner's policy. As far as registration, DMV won't register a bicycle because it doesn't have a VIN.

2) Can you tell me which VA Code Section says bicyclists are supposed to stop and walk their bikes across intersections?

The simple fact is, the law doesn't require or provide for any of the things you seem so angry about.

However, the law does grant cyclists the same rights and priviledges as motorists on the road. So your assertion that they are second class is simply wrong.

You are, of course, free to feel any way you want about it, but the law doesn't support your position. Just because you think the law should say something doesn't mean it actually says it. And just because you get annoyed when you have to wait 30 seconds to get around a bicycle, doesn't mean the cyclist is unlawfully impeding the flow of traffic.

Motorists and cyclists would both fare better if each group would:

a: learn the laws,

b: obey the laws, and

c: show each other some simple courtesy and respect.

# 37

[May 6, 2007 5:21 PM]

C. Trejbal

I'm sorry you feel that way, Will L. It's a shame that rather than discuss you simply identify anything with which you disagree as senseless. Perhaps it is just as well that we end the debate. I do urge you, however, to show respect for all vehicles obeying the law on the road, including bicyclists.

# 38

[May 6, 2007 10:41 PM]

Lisa (the first one)

I just saw the 5/2 post from "Lisa" and want to observe that apparently there is more than one Lisa in the local area.

Christian, you can check my email address, but I would never be so blatantly rude or disrespectful (I am much more covert). Will patiently answered, as is his nature, another Lisa.

(pssst...bike lanes sound good to me)

# 39

[May 7, 2007 7:10 AM]

Josh

I just think the nature of automobiles vs bicycles makes them extremely incompatible on the same road. It's nobody's fault. Bikes are hard to see. Even if you try to accomodate bicycles with special lanes, it's still a hassle for motorists. And as a cyclist on a busy road, I just doesn't feel safe. No matter whose fault a collision is, I would still come out on the short end.

When I need to get somewhere I drive. When I want exercise on a bike, I head for the Blue Ridge Parkway or some other sparsely traveled road.

# 40

[May 7, 2007 8:27 AM]

Josh

Tsk. Just when I thought Lisa was starting to see the light.

# 41

[May 7, 2007 5:08 PM]

eric

Ok, not every discussion is about liberal vs conservative, get a life guys. rather than a dedicated bike lane on every road, why not a park and ride system ( sorta already in place at new river mall). But extend the trail further into christiansburg to be more accessible to residential areas-like maybe the rec center area . This would be the most efficient way to keep bikes away from a dangerously congested area while allowing those wishing to commute or simply ride for exercise a way to do so, at the least cost to the town. I do ride my bike on the road, have never been the victim of any sort of harassment, but i would never ride on a road where there would be a danger to mys;lef or others form my riding. Just because the law says that you coudl ride on certain roads, doesnt mean that you should ride on those roads. And laslty , i would rather ride on a dedicated traila dn not worry about traffic signals , it would take long enought to ride to Blacksburg in the AM without waitng at traffic lights

# 42

[May 8, 2007 1:02 PM]

Lisa (the first one)

Josh-
About Christian or about bikes?

Even you aren't so mean as to "order" someone to leave the area. Christian can live anywhere and still post here. Who would you "play" with if he left? Oh that's right, you would still have Dan, and Will and...

For what it's worth, I am terrified of driving on the Blue Ridge Parkway because of the bikers. They seem to ride 3 or 4 abreast and have a king of the road attitude when it comes to cars.

I love bike riding. I am afraid to ride a bike. I am afraid of bike riders when I drive my car. It is not safe to ride a bike in the road. It is not safe to drive with bikers on the road. Bike riding is greener than consuming fuel. All of these statements are true and I know that I sure don't know the answers.

If Christian thinks that better signal sensors will help somehow and raising this issue has at least caused some deeper thinking about biker safety and practicality well, good for him. I don't see that he has made this a partisan issue.

# 43

[May 8, 2007 6:02 PM]

Josh

Lisa,

I don't think the other Lisa ordered anyone around. She spoke her mind and said what a lot of people are thinking instead of being all wishy-washy. Since I had thought it was you, I was all set to congratulate you.

Actually, the staff doesn't respond much to comments anymore. They haven't since Christian's concealed weapons gaffe. I think the new lady in charge decided they were wasting too much company time or didn't want them to screw up again.

Try the part of the parkway going north from 460. Hardly any traffic because nobody's going to Buchanan. But it's hilly. If you're a wimp, you won't make it.