The Roanoke Times: RoundTable

Comments

# 1

[February 3, 2008 12:30 PM]

Mike

Thanks, pal, for wanting to raise my taxes! I live in the county and am happy with the services the county provides me. If I have to pay more, then I would insist on the County library to move out of Blacksburg and be built near my house. I'd also say that the fire halls and rescue squads close down at their locations and move out to the county. New schools should be built out in the county, not in the towns. Yeah, I'm sorry Blacksburg pays more than me, but the fire halls and libraries are in town.

# 2

[February 3, 2008 1:40 PM]

DD

Remember also that unlike most other counties/cities in the region, Montgomery Co's EMS services are provided free of charge. Patients receive no bill for the professional services given. Sadly, unless things change, county residents may have to fork up $500-$1000 per ambulance trip, in addition to their taxes, just like residents in other counties in the Roanoke and New River Valley do.

# 3

[February 3, 2008 2:40 PM]

Henry

When I was working EMS many years ago, an ambulance ride was $40. Imagine what had to happen to make it go up 10-20 times.

# 4

[February 3, 2008 2:40 PM]

DD

How does the "non-town" county resident's fire, rescue, or school services differ than those in the town? Do school buses not come to pick up your kids? When you call 911, does the fire and rescue not come?

How does the physical location of these services have anything to do what level of service you receive? Sure, the bus takes longer to get there, and the response time for an ambulance is a bit longer..but that is a consequence of living away from the population center.

# 5

[February 3, 2008 3:49 PM]

C Ramsey

I can understand anyone's reluctance to have their taxes raised, but in this instance, Christian got it right. The localities should provide funding equal to the percentage of service they receive. It has never been equitable that Town residents pay double taxes when they receive little if any services from the County.

I'm also not sure why Mike thinks the location of the building makes a difference. County residents still account for almost half of the calls for service.

Further, feel free to insist on fire and rescue facilities in the County, but be prepared to foot the entire bill, as it is entirely unrealistic for anyone to think that the Town Fire/EMS services will just move into the County, when the County is only willing to foot between 10% and 25% of the bill.

Unrealistic, but not wholly unexpected in a society that believes it is always entitled to something for nothing. That said, I am anxious to hear the argument of why people shouldn't have to pay their fair share.

# 6

[February 3, 2008 5:59 PM]

Mike

Hmmn, after giving it more thought, maybe the problem is that folks in Blacksburg and C'burg pay too much in taxes. That's the bottom line.

What do Blacksburg and Christiansburg taxes go to? (Note: the county runs the schools, parks, libraries). After watching the poor performance of Blacksburg's goverance over the past several years (failed Tom's Creek Sewer Project, Walmart by Beek's, etc.), I'd be wondering what my taxes were going to! Now Blacksburg wants to throw away $100K on fighting Walmart? Well, obviously they must have money. . .

If you are a town resident, ask for accountability of YOUR town tax money, don't try to put the county over a barrel.

# 7

[February 3, 2008 6:44 PM]

Mike

Equal to the percentage of service? How about proportional to population? I'm guessing that is how it was initially set up and it may have gotten out of balance. I think it behooves the Roanoke times to show actual numbers rather than muck-racking.

I agreed that this is a hot-button issue with failure of B'burg, C'burg and Mont. Co. to work together. I hear all the time from my friends in Blacksburg about how they pay so much in taxes and we get a free ride in the county. Well, surprise, I pay taxes too and am proud to do so.

BTW I get excellent EMS from the wonderful people at Long Shop/McCoy Rescue Squad.

# 8

[February 3, 2008 8:07 PM]

C Ramsey

Funding by population would work if the number of calls for service were proportional to population, but they aren't.

And none of this has even addressed the issue that it costs more for an EMS/Fire response into the County, particularly with today's fuel prices.

But for the life of me I can't figure out why some County residents think it is perfectly fair for the Town residents to subsidize County services that they don't use by paying taxes to both localities, but in their minds it is patently unfair to even suggest that the County residents actually pay a rate proportional to the services they use. If anything, Town residents should enjoy a reduced County tax rate so that all parties would pay a similar total tax rate.

# 9

[February 3, 2008 8:28 PM]

Blue John

I think C Ramsey may have a viable proposal on this matter. An equitable adjustment for the Blacksburg and Christiansburg residents would be a good solution.

# 10

[February 3, 2008 9:06 PM]

Mike

Let's look at the numbers. According to the Mont. Co. Proposed Budget 2008-2009, page 100, the county will provide the following amounts to the following EMS:
Blacksburg EMS: $69,120
Christiansburg: $143,900
Long Shop McCoy: $32,600
Shawsville: $56,600
Clearly, the county supports the towns moreso than the county residents. If there are more calls out in the county, then the county should build additional EMS in the county and increase funding for Long Shop McCoy and Shawsville EMS.

I sincerely hope the county taxes all residents the same rate. It would be unfair to do otherwise. Clearly, the county divvies up the money to towns, rightfully so, since more county tax payers live in the towns. To suggest county residents do not pay taxes (even their fair share) is disingenuous.

I admit, I feel your pain, but I think the problem is that the towns sock it to their residents! Where does all the moeny go to that the town residents pay in taxes? Towns folk get county services (EMS, schools, etc.) and the benefits of town services (buses, street lights, more police, Steppin Out, etc.)

# 11

[February 3, 2008 10:10 PM]

Henry

If EMS responds to a car wreck in the county, it could be responding to a Blacksburg resident in the county. That's why it would be best to charge a surcharge for the visit rather than raise county taxes to pay for city services we may not get.

# 12

[February 3, 2008 11:28 PM]

C Ramsey

Mike,

Your numbers only illustrate the point made in the editorial. The County does pay a portion of the costs, but they use the services at a higher proportion than they pay. These are the same numbers Christian used to show that the County funded 13% of the Blacksburg Rescue Squad's opperating budget. But B'burg EMS calls for service in the County account for 33% of the total calls run.

The Towns would still have EMS service if the County pulled all the funding it gave these agencies. In fact, if the County pulled all the money given and the Town EMS stopped running County calls, the money the Town's EMS would save in reduced call volume would more than make up for the lost County funds.

As for the Town residents getting County services, the Towns provide all basic emergency and utility service. The only County service that Town residents use regularly is the school
system.

An interesting social experiment might be to completely separate the entities for a two year trial. Town residents only pay Town taxes and only use services provided by the Towns. The County residents would do the same, only pay County taxes and only receive services provided by the County. It would be interesting to see who would notice more of a decrease in services provided.

# 13

[February 4, 2008 9:59 AM]

Eric

Throw this in the mix:

From speaking with friends and co-workers who are fire and rescue volunteers, the Towns and the County each own their own emergency vehicles. I think the County buys and maintains (insurance, repairs, etc) their own vehicles and theo Towns do the same. I don't know how the fuel costs are handled, but as stated earlier this would be a large expense. I believe when a call is initially dispatched in the County, a County owned vehicle responds to the scene. Pulaski County uses REMSI ambulance service and residents are offered once a year a "registration" for this service as a type of insurance. They pay a relatively small amount up front whether they use the service that year or not, and pay little or nothing for each ambulance trip.

Also, how about the residents who don't have children paying for public schools? The 2008 county budget lists roughly $938,000 for Fire & Rescue county wide vs. over $93,000,000 for the school systems. How about trying to do the math to decide which residents need to pay for the schools because they have children attending or they once attended themselves?...no thanks, I'll just pay my share of the current taxes.

Just some food for thought. I think the real important thing to remember is that we are a COMMUNITY. The events of the last two years should prove that to us. I live in the Town of Christiansburg and don't mind paying both taxes for the services I receive. I consider the town taxes low for the services I receive.

# 14

[February 4, 2008 1:54 PM]

Joe Hokie

Christian got it half right, but since he is writing an editorial/commentary, he left out some pieces. Were the folks at the Current more interested in news than ads, there is a good in-depth news story to tack onto Christian's first pass.

He relates a variety of numbers, which are in themselves pretty meaningless. A breakdown between fire and rescue is in order, since these are basically two different "agencies" with different missions, needs, and budgets. Next is to break down into more detail the types of calls and the location of calls for all the fire departments and rescue squads. Then for the town vs. county rescue calls (which are more prevalent), especially for Blacksburg, there needs to be a mapping of where the squad is responding -- more than likely Warm Hearth Village will have one of the largest dots on the map. For Christiansburg, look at how many calls there are to the Riner area.

For Blacksburg, if Warm Hearth is taken from the mix, then the numbers will probably balance out a little better for town vs. county calls. In Christiansburg, it has already been recognized that the growing Riner area generates a lot of calls, which is why a satellite station is being planned for downtown Riner. What also might skew the numbers for Christiansburg fire and rescue responses into the county is the number of calls for wrecks and other incidents on I-81. Sure, the Radford rest area is in Montgomery County, but when a New Jersey truck driver with chest pains calls for medical assistance, how does one count that service in a town vs. county tally? This also holds true for the Shawsville and Elliston rescue squad and fire department, which also respond to a number of calls on the interstate.

So when it comes to who pays what in a town vs. county tax battle, it isn't as black and white as Christian makes it out to be with fire and rescue services. He is right, though, about town residents paying double in taxes. Granted, I could load up my trash and garbage and haul it to one of the dumpster sites in the county (but Blacksburg will still charge me full freight for trash collection, since there is no way to not use the service). I can stop in at the new Meadowbrook Library and check out books, since I have a county library card. I can head out to the landfill on a sunny afternoon and play a round of Frisbee golf on the county course, or take a dip in the Frog Pond. County residents can pretty much do the same things, visiting the library in Blacksburg or Christiansburg, or taking their kids to play at Hand-in-Hand Playground (no one checks IDs at the gate), and delivering their trash to a dumpster site. But as a town resident, I also get more and better services for the extra I pay. Blacksburg has more and nicer parks than the county. I have the snow plowed from my street shortly after it starts falling (which the town could back off from to save a few bucks -- I don't need bare pavement on my cul de sac within an hour of the end of a storm). I have a quicker police response should I need it. Part of the reason I live in town is because of these ammenities, which makes it annoying to read Michael Hemphill's whines about what he doesn't have in Elliston -- if you want town services in the county, then convince the supervisors to provide those services and expect to pay higher taxes to have them.

Bottom line is that the whole tax situation in Montgomery County is way off kilter. The Roanoke Times pointed out years ago that the county, as a rapidly urbanizing area, has more in common with Roanoke County than it does with the other parts of the New River Valley (especially Floyd and Giles Counties). But the Montgomery County supervisors and too many of the residents still see the county as the agrarian place it was in the '30s and '40s and still want to pay a tax rate based on that view. Until that changes, life and taxes will always be unfair.

# 15

[February 4, 2008 10:53 PM]

Chris T. not for me

Quick question, how much does the towns of C'burg and B'burg give to Montgomery Co. Public Schools? Maybe it all evens out in the end. Or not..

# 16

[February 5, 2008 7:47 AM]

Other John

I also have to wonder, my impression has always been that Town residents generally pay more than county residents because the overall quality, timliness, and value of the government services were supposed to be far better than that in the surrounding counties. Yes, the county may field more calls, but what about the response times? I'm pretty sure someone in Blacksburg gets an ambulance or fire truck response in less than half the time compared to someone living out in Ironto or Plum Creek for example.

# 17

[February 5, 2008 9:01 PM]

C Ramsey

In answer to Chris T's quick question, why would the Towns give part of their revenue to the County Schools? The residents of the Towns pay the same County taxes as do County residents. They pay their Town taxes on top that.

And since the Town residents pay the same taxes at the same tax rate, coupled with the facts that property in Towns is typically valued higher than property in the County, and a higher percentage of the population lives in Towns, I'd wager that at least half of the County's property tax revenue comes from County taxes levied on Town residents.

So, I'll ask again. Since the Town residents are already paying County taxes, why would the Towns then turn around and give part of their revenue to the County?

On the other hand, County residents don't pay Town taxes. That's why the County provides some funding to the Towns; to help offset the costs of services County residents receive from the Towns, services for which they are not taxed.

# 18

[February 7, 2008 2:11 PM]

Mike

The Blacksburg EMS is not a department of the govenment of the Town of Blacksburg. According to BVRS website, they became an "Independent Organization" in 1986. The article makes it sound like they are a department of the town government, so I can see the perception that Blacksburg "foots the bill" for calls out to the county. The county provides funding to the BVRS directly, not to the Town of Blacksburg, for EMS services in the county.

Additionally, I would like to know what other "town services" do county residents get that they are not being taxed for?

# 19

[February 7, 2008 4:48 PM]

C Ramsey

It's really irrelevant if they BVRS receives funding as a budgeted Department or, as the say, from donations from the governments of the various jurisdictions. The point of this article is that the County "donations" are not proportional to the County's actual use of the service. In other words, they are geting more than they are paying for and doing so at the expense of the Town residents.

By the way, were aren't just discussing Blacskburg, but Christiansburg as well, where the Rescue Squad is part of the Town government.

Are you really going to argue that similar EMS and Fire service could be provided exclusively to the County citizens if those agencies were limited to the funding the County provides (donates)?

# 20

[February 7, 2008 8:41 PM]

Mike

Irrelevant where the funding comes from? Hum, above you keep calling it the Town EMS, as if it is owned by the Town (example: see #12 above). Since the article highlighted BVRS covering the north part of the county, its fair to discuss this in terms of Blacksburg.

A much more equitable solution is to charge for runs. Many, if not most, insurance companies will cover ambulance service. If they charged $100 for a run and if in a year they received 2,500 calls - they could recoup $250,000! Blacksburg could lower their donation to the BVRS (if they choose to do so) and still receive the same excellent service. This could also save the tax payers of Blacksburg, provided Town Council was willing to lower taxes.

Finally, Montgomery County states in the budget that funding provides minimal service to all residents of the county. There are generous donors, including the Town of Blacksburg, that have decided they would like better than minimal service.

# 21

[February 8, 2008 5:29 PM]

C Ramsey

How convenient it is for you to ignore Christiansburg since it doesn't fit into your paradigm. Correct me if I'm wrong but Blacksburg's generous donation does still come from taxpayer dolars, does it not? According to your own argument, BVRS is not one of the minimal services the County provides. It's an independent service.

Let's try it from a different angle. As a Town resident, the only "minimal service" I get for my County tax dollars is from the schools. The Town provides everything else in return for my Town tax dollars.

So my question is, how is it fair for me to pay the same taxes as a County resident, but to only receive the one service, when County residents are allowed all services provided by the County for paying the same tax rate?

# 22

[February 8, 2008 5:56 PM]

c. trejbal

You get a few more services, Ramsey. There's the sheriff, jail and court, for example.

# 23

[February 8, 2008 6:03 PM]

Joe Hokie

Mike is on to a potential solution, but then it becomes an issue of the "haves" subsidizing the "have nots" who use the rescue squad. I mentioned above the need to flesh out the numbers with some more-detailed statistics. A key number would be the number of non-emergency calls the rescue squad (any of them) gets called out for -- the migraine headaches, the morbidly obese person who has fallen out of bed, the "I don't have a car, insurance, or a doctor but I need to go to the emergency room for this hurt leg" type of calls. Listen to a scanner for a couple of days and you'll hear all these and more dispatched to all the rescue squads. Who decides what calls to go to? Who says "sorry, no pay, no haul" to the folks in the trailer park? Collecting a fee may help (although the adverse result could be higher insurance rates), but it isn't the total answer. Maybe the volunteer squads just need to go private and sign up subscribers and let the rest of the populace fend for itself -- especially in a county that prides itself on keeping taxes at 1950s levels.

# 24

[February 8, 2008 8:43 PM]

C Ramsey

Christian,

Shortly the jail service for my area will be provided by the Regional jail. And even now, the bulk of jail funding comes from the State Department of Corrections.

Law enforcement service in Town is already provided by the Town Police. While the Sheriff's Office shares concurrent jurisdiction in Town, as a matter of policy, they don't respond to calls for service in Town. And despite the fact that the Courts are called Montgomery County, they fall under the purview of the Supreme Court of Virginia and are paid by the state.

So in essence, the only local service from which I receive any return is the school system. People can rationalize it any way they wish, but the truth of the matter is Town residents pay the same taxes as do County residents, but the return they receive is less than equitable.

# 25

[February 8, 2008 10:46 PM]

Blue John

The Town of Blacksburg web site indicates that both the town and county own individual vehicles that are used by the rescue squad. The fire dept. section did not list owned vehicles, but has a breakdown of the calls and response times for those interested.

# 26

[February 9, 2008 12:04 AM]

Gene

People in town chose to live there.They knew they would be paying both.We also pay state taxes so how much money is Virginia funding into each department? We are Virginia residents too correct.Do you believe that if the county increases funding that the town will decrease its taxes. Will the services actually change? I work in the town everyday, I visit town businesses everyday. So I as a county resident put money into the town everyday. I believe every fire and rescue crew in the county needs a raise. Also all county departments will respond anywhere in the county if and when needed. Yes even in the towns; I also see county deputies patrolling and assisting town officers, should the county send a bill each time. Animal control responds in these areas as well, should they send a bill. Now, I don't know how it works but, does the towns put money into the regional jail for housing criminals ? Who's paying for the out of towner who wrecks on the interstate or any other road in these areas, who pays for the mutual aide given to the surrounding counties? Simple, to be fair, cut the taxes and start charging for sevices rendered. You pay for it everytime you pay your car, health, and home insurance premiums. If you don't have insurance offer a program for a one time fee per year.

# 27

[February 9, 2008 9:04 AM]

c. trejbal

Ramsey, I'm not disagreeing with you. I wrote the original column lamenting the disparity, remember? I'm just pointing out that it's not as simple as you seem to think. County services are not limited to schools. County taxes, however, are way out of whack as I wrote originally.

# 28

[February 9, 2008 11:42 AM]

C Ramsey

Gene, you have completely missed an important fact. Town residents pay the same COUNTY taxes that County residents pay. Residents of the County and Town are equally entitled to the services provided by the County. However, County residents DO NOT pay town taxes, yet they still seem to feel entitled to Town services.

As a moral imperative, emergency services, be they fire, rescue or law enforcement, go wherever they are needed without thought to who pays the bill. That's the way it should be.

However, my beef is with the sense of entitlement demonstrated by some citizens. Rather than recognize it as a service, they think they have somehow earned it by virtue of being alive, and then bitch about how they suffer from longer response times from a service they aren't willing to fund.

All I'm looking for is a little more equity in the equation. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. Mine is that the localities should fund the services based on the rate at which they utilize the service. On the contrary, I'm not at all in favor of billing citizens per use because the people who are unable to pay will still use the service and those of us who are willing and able to pay will just pay more for those who can't or won't pay.