The Roanoke Times: RoundTable

Comments

# 1

[February 16, 2007 3:13 PM]

richard Howard

Be forewarned! Once City Council gives some developer the right to build on Mill Mountain there is no guarantee that the finished product will in anyway be "environmentally sensitive".Council will surely give the citizens all sorts of assurances that they will remain the mountain's vigilant stewards but once they hop in bed with that guy there will be no limit to the concessions they will provide just to get an inn, any inn on Mill Mountain. I think Roanoke is now on it's THIRD master plan for Mill Mountain and this dining/lodging/jazzing/confering multiplex is not in anyway consistent with the plan. Nor is it consistent with the city's stated mission for it's parks. Mill Mountain is designated as a park. Build that junk somewhere else.

# 2

[February 16, 2007 3:58 PM]

Robert Fralin

Mill Mountain’s extraordinary beauty and unique proximity to the city and parkway afford an unparalleled opportunity to provide enjoyment for citizens and visitors alike. Valley Forward whole-heartedly believes that the best way to responsibly capitalize on this breathtaking asset is to enhance Mill Mountain with a tasteful, environmentally sensitive lodge that hosts a destination restaurant. The rebirth of the Rockledge Inn would deliver a much needed quality of life attraction and become a strong catalyst for our local economy. With a commitment from our citizens, Roanoke can be a tourist destination and a permanent home for more young adults!

It was interesting that well-known statistician, Dr. Chas Houston, conducted a survey that shows an overwhelming majority (80%) of those surveyed believe that a fine lodge with an upscale restaurant would greatly benefit our community.

It is only logical that the Lodge would significantly benefit our zoo. The way the Lodge is proposed, it will not disturb any walking trails, the visitor center, or our much loved Star! World-class views are just not available in every city! We may be wise to learn from other cities like Chattanooga and capitalize on our mountain views for the benefit of our citizens and to showcase our city.

# 3

[February 16, 2007 4:21 PM]

Will

I certainly hope the vision of Valley Forward comes to fruition. Roanoke has too long been hindered by the view from within the valley. The city and county together have continually stunted any meaningful growth and expansion.

For many years, Roanoke has flip flopped around claiming to be forward thinking and visionary but the real truth of the matter lies in the facts. Roanoke has a school system that is the laughing stock of the state and a median wage scale that makes it virtually impossible to purchase and maintain a home. The beloved Carilion is a laughable healthcare system in which it takes up to 6 months to get an initial appointment depending upon the malady you might have.

Building a hotel on top of Mill Mountain, while perhaps a good first step, won't cure Roanoke. I only hope that once Valley Forward gets to the top of Mill Mountain, they'll look beyond and draw upon all the area benefits (Bedford, Montgomery, Franklin and Botetourt Counties).

For once, we are going to have to think regionally and not continue to carry on with the selfish little kingdoms of Roanoke City, Roanoke County, the City of Salem and the town of Vinton. Frankly, I think its time we dumped all four valley governments and came up with one.

Otherwise, we will continue to faulter and progress will continue to elude us.

Good luck Valley Forward!

# 4

[February 16, 2007 5:01 PM]

Valerie Garner

I certainly wish we had the clout to effect a grand "vision" for the Countryside property. Perhaps Valley Forward can help us convince the City that we too in Northwest deserve the same attention. The airport hotels list Countryside as an amenity. There is another hotel going up. The GM of Holiday Inn tried to tell Council that they make money off of golf packages that Counryside is a part of. Alvin Nash wrote a long letter to them asking to keep it.

Valley Forward, help other parts of the City too!

Chair, Countryside Neighborhood Alliance

# 5

[February 16, 2007 11:12 PM]

Questions that beg answers....

Who is Chas Houston?
When did he conduct this survey?
Who did he poll?
What did he ask?
Were all of the facts presented to those polled?
What was his sample size?

Why should I believe anything you have to say? This has all been rather sneaky and interesting since it's all come out 6 days prior to the council meeting.

And what I still can't figure out is who in the world do you think is going to come here and stay there?

# 6

[February 16, 2007 11:36 PM]

Dan Radmacher

The same kind of folks who stay at Hotel Roanoke, only they appreciate a view more than quick access to downtown.

# 7

[February 17, 2007 10:39 AM]

Valley Forward : →http://www.valleyforward.net

Poll at following link.

# 8

[February 17, 2007 10:18 PM]

Jen

Your survey discredits itself. The methodology section of your report basically states that your sample size is narrow and doesn't represent an accurate cross section of the population. Also, 472 people polled is no where close to a large enough sample size to claim "broad support among community and business leaders" as you have claimed in The Roanoke Times (2/15/07). By limiting yourself to the YMCA, VWCC, REHC, etc you selected a very narrow group of citizens to poll. Why did you not go out into the community at large and ask?

You also mention the cities of Asheville, Pittsburgh and Chattanooga - my question regarding these three cities is are the moutain tops there property of the parks and recreation department of the city? Who did the entrepreneurs there purchase their property from and what was the proprty used for prior to commercialization?

You continually state "environmentally sensitive" as a selling point, however your two question survey neglects this as a topic of concern. Are you afraid of asking people this for fear that it will plant a seed for them to think about?

After reading the survey report, it sounds like you've got a long ways to go before claiming so much support from the community. Is this Valley Forward's stance, or has the Roanoke Times misreported the facts?

# 9

[February 17, 2007 10:50 PM]

Will

Jen,

It sounds like typical negativity for something new and fresh for Roanoke coming from you. Do you just dislike the idea itself or do you have something against progress in Roanoke?

In 50 years, for the life of me, I can not understand why the people of Roanoke don't want any progress in this town. I've often wondered what we would have were it not for a few people who were smart enough to let an airport in Roanoke in the first place.

I honestly believe that if some of you people had your way, you'd be living back in 1900 with your horses and buggies.

For God sake people, let Roanoke get into the 21st Century and lets get some life into this town. If it keeps going the way it is, another 50 years will have this area a dismal ghost town of itself.

# 10

[February 17, 2007 11:49 PM]

Jen

I dislike the idea of selling a public park for a commercial venture. I have no problem with progess in Roanoke and would love to see a more "outdoor" oriented community than one that survives based on commercialism such as restaurants and shopping areas. You have to admit that we have plenty of restaurants now. How is it that "lodge" is going to help revitalize downtown?

I've heard stories for years of how great downtown Roanoke was, and I've often wondered what it would be like to have this again, but I don't see how putting a lodge on top of the mountain is going to help. I recall seeing/hearing similar arguments about restoring Hotel Roanoke. Has that helped?

What Roanoke really should focus on is recruiting some type of industry that will provide people with more than just minimum wage jobs. What industry is going to sustain Roanoke's long term economy?

And with all due respect sir, my post merely presents the other side of the argument and brings up valid points and questions about Valley Forward's survey.

# 11

[February 18, 2007 12:33 AM]

Susan

Jen,
The following link should help with your concerns about the survey.

http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=6098506&nav=menu368_2_9

# 12

[February 18, 2007 11:14 AM]

Will

Valley Forward is trying to think outside the box. I applaud them for doing so. Their efforts not only include the Mill Mountain development but also include ideas that may do exactly what you talk about...that is to attract new and vibrant businesses that pay more than minimum wage.

As I've said before, it has to happen on a regional basis. Roanoke can no longer continue to live just within the confines of this valley. Somewhere somehow someway, we need leadership that will partner with the other resources of the region to make the area attractive to business and industry.

VA lost a bid for the Toyota plant...which would have meant jobs especially for the hardest hit areas of southside and western VA.

It's time we found people to put in places of responsibility that want this region to grow and prosper.

# 13

[March 6, 2007 3:33 PM]

Warren

“Enhance” Mill Mountain? It’s already such a unique place that really needs no "enhancement", yet so many seem eager to junk it up with more of the same that is already found all over the valley. You call this progressive? What is progressive about ruining a park? How about some real forward thinking on how we can re-design downtown to make it a destination? (A pedestrian mall, a usable public transportation system to tie the entire city together - trolley cars perhaps – so folks can take in the museums, market, Elmwood Park and the eventual attractions at the Victory Stadium site) Do you folks who support this proposal honestly think ONE hotel can change the economic tide for an entire city? Do you think that Pittsburgh and Chattanooga have vibrant downtown areas because of what has been built on their mountaintops? I’d like to know if Valley Forward has done any market research (not a “would you like it” survey) to support this proposal.

# 14

[March 8, 2007 2:14 PM]

Richard Howard

The survey produced by Valley Forward is a classic example of how a survey's questions can be manipulated to elicit the response desired by the client. It's a joke.

# 15

[March 8, 2007 3:20 PM]

Will

I feel pretty sure that the cities of Pittsburgh, Ashville and Chattanooga started with a "first step" in the development of their cities. Some project, after all has to be the first.

Somewhere somehow, Roanoke has got to take that "first step." While a two question survey isn't exactly overwhelming with information and polling 475 people isn't a huge representative sampling of the population of the city, it is at least a first step.

To Jen-

I appreciate your perspective and your point of view. Having been in the Roanoke area for all but 10 of my 50 years, I get very frustrated to see the "guard" of Roanoke try to squelch anything that seems to have anything to do with bringing something new to the area.

I remember when downtown Roanoke was indeed a vibrant and great shopping area with the likes of Miller & Rhodes, Samuel Speigel, Lazarus, John Norman, Heironimus, Smartwear Irving Saks to name a few. Norfolk and Western Railway was a bellweather for commerce in Roanoke.

I agree with you 1000% that Roanoke (the entire valley) needs to do something quickly to bring more meaningful and better paying jobs to the area so that the valley can support itself in ways other than increasing personal and real property taxes.

Roanoke is going to have to think regionally rather than locally if it really wants to grow.

Let's push the city fathers, the board of supervisors and any other government officials to get off the stick and get to work doing just that!

# 16

[March 8, 2007 3:36 PM]

C. Trejbal

Actually, 475 is a reasonable sample size for a city the size of Roanoke. I haven't done the math, but the 90 percent confindence interval should be only a couple of percentage points.

That said, the sample selection was lousy. It wasn't random, so the poll results aren't too hot no matter the sample size.

# 17

[March 11, 2007 9:40 PM]

Susan

WDBJ7 did their own poll, please find it attached (http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=6098506&nav=menu368_2_9

Mr. Trejbal, do you have a personal distaste for the rebirth of the Rockledge Inn or for two surveys that say the exact same thing: Roanoke wants this lodge? aS a matter of thought, I would confidently assert that in 10 years it would be more emotionally difficult to remove a new Rockledge than to remove our chrished star, which incidently would have no chance of being erected in today's world...funny it was placed there while Roanoke's growth was very relevant. You do the math. Change and progress is hard for some and exciting for others; but wherever you stand, we can get through this progressive period in Roanoke's history. Thank you Valley Forward for doing SOMETHING.

# 18

[March 12, 2007 9:49 AM]

Dick Howard

Susan,
The poll was conducted shortly after the VF proposal was covered in the newspaper. Those polled had only the VF pro lodge/inn sales pitch on which to determine their "yes" or "no" in the survey. This is not like making your decision AFTER you have heard both sides of a discussion.

# 19

[March 12, 2007 9:50 AM]

Dick Howard

Susan,
The poll was conducted shortly after the VF proposal was covered in the newspaper. Those polled had only the VF pro lodge/inn sales pitch on which to determine their "yes" or "no" in the survey. This is hardly the same thing as making your decision AFTER you have heard both sides of a discussion.

# 20

[March 12, 2007 11:53 AM]

Dick Howard

Susan,
Sorry about the double post. You say that" Change and progress is hard for some, exciting for others". Are you implying that all change is good? Cancer represents a change in the human body. Is cancer exciting? The new art museum will be a drastic change on the downtown landscape but there are those who vehemently argue that it is a bad change and not exciting and they have legit points in their favor.
" Progress" lies subjectively in the eyes of the beholder. What you and some others see as "progress" on the VF proposal, others see as an ill conceived but very smartly packaged megaplex of concrete, steel and asphalt on the top of an already jam
packed little jewel of a mountain. To me, progress on Mill Mountain would be making it into the best urban outdoor experience in Va. ( except maybe second to Richmond's James River Park.) We don't need to destroy and build to have progress there.
This is not a black or white situation with change and progress ( good) being white and opposition to C&P being black. ( bad) It, as in most things, is a shade of grey. Stuff needs to be done on and for MM Park. It's just not the kneejerk solution junk VF wants to willy nilly
throw up there. Those guys need to be thinking outside the box as opposed to putting the box over their "cool" heads. The air can get very thin in there...affects your thinking.

# 21

[March 12, 2007 4:04 PM]

Will

Would the last person out of the dwindling population of the City of Roanoke kindly turn out the lights?

# 22

[March 12, 2007 7:49 PM]

susan

Thank for getting it Will. It is people like you that give people like me inspiration that we will not end up like Henry County. You get it! So succinct,....

"Would the last person out of the dwindling population of the City of Roanoke kindly turn out the lights."

Folks, the economy is changing and to be competitive, you have to adapt to it!

Imagine: you were not from here and never knew that Mill Mountain was once bare of lodging and dining and you came to a nice rustic lodge that had breathtaking views of a midsize city (Roanoke) with awesome natural ammenities all around. You would say, "wow what an attraction. what a city!"

Perhaps you would even say, "we will move here, locate a subsidiary here or even retire here."

Ok, don't take my word for it. Click the link below to hear about the new economy from somebody who "matters."

http://www.tbcollaborative.com/Intelligence.asp?ID=3&View=All

Happy stagnation, Dick!

# 23

[March 14, 2007 1:45 PM]

Mike Bilger

Friday, March 09, 2007

I recently returned from a trip to Phoenix, Arizona where another group named Valley Forward has been working since 1969 as “an advocate for a balance between economic development and environmental quality, and convenes business, community and civic leaders in thoughtful public dialogue on these regional issues.” (http://www.valleyforward.org/)

This group has a long and noteworthy history of combining economic development with protection of the natural environment. One of the most worthwhile projects they have been involved with is the preservation and expansion of a system of Mountain Preserves within the greater Phoenix metropolitan area. This system of Mountain Preserves is an island of tranquility in what is now the 14th largest metropolitan area in the US.

Starting in the late 1970s to the mid 1980s a series of citizen initiated ballot propositions and bond elections led to the creation of Chapter 26 of the Phoenix City Code which specifically defined the uses and limitations of what has become some of most valuable real estate in country, if not the world. Here is an excerpt from the Code which could serve as a model for the City of Roanoke:

Sec. 3. Use of Mountain Preserve property:(a) The City Council shall, upon tile recommendation of the Parks and Recreation Board, establish by ordinance such permitted uses of the Mountain Preserves as are consistent with the following objectives:

Maintain the Mountain Preserves, including native plant and animal communities, in their natural state to the maximum extent practicable; and
Provide cultural, educational and recreational opportunities primarily designed to heighten appreciation and enjoyment of the … environment, and
Provide equestrian, pedestrian (including handicapped) and vehicular (whether motorized or otherwise) access into the Mountain Preserves to the extent consistent with the foregoing objectives. (http://www.phoenixmountains.org/)
These Preserves have since been linked to other areas through a system of greenways and a regional trails system, much of this through the efforts of Valley Forward-Phoenix.

Interestingly, there was an elite restaurant named “Cloud Nine” on top of Shaw Butte, a mountain in the Phoenix Mountain Preserves, that was very popular at one time in a manner similar to the old Rockledge Inn here in Roanoke. This restaurant met a similar fate by burning down in the 1960’s. It has never been rebuilt and will never be rebuilt because this area is in the Mountain Preserves and thus by citizen vote off-limits to development—period.

From the top of Shaw Butte, one can see the entire Valley of the Sun sprawling in all directions. I would venture to guess that visible in that urban sprawl are thousands of “cool places” that serve all manner of refreshments and provide all sorts of entertainment. So, after biking, or hiking, or riding their horse through the Mountain Preserves there are ample numbers of "cool places" where young professionals, among others, could hang out and do pretty much anything they wanted to do.

Phoenix is not alone in their commendable environmental and recreational preservation efforts. Edinburgh, Scotland, which I’ve seen mentioned in articles in the Roanoke Times as an example of a city of great festivals, has an extraordinary park in the middle of the city that is off-limits to development. Holyrood Park has about 650 acres, is entirely surrounded by city, and is truly a place of natural beauty. Chicago has Grant and Lincoln Parks. New York City has Central Park. San Francisco has Golden Gate Park. The list goes on.

Besides providing a welcome respite from the pressures of modern urban living, these parks and park systems create immense value for the surrounding area to a much greater degree by staying natural than if businesses were built within them.

So, Valley Forward-Roanoke take your creative talents and youthful energy and develop the “brown-fields” that surround the base of Mill Mountain. Develop the riverfront below it. Clean up the mess that blights the urban landscape presently. Make something like the Shockoe Bottom-Shockoe Slip area of Richmond. Make the Greenway System integrative. Tie all this to Mill Mountain through environmentally conscious transportation systems, including perhaps an aerial tramway that would serve to help eliminate vehicle traffic instead of encouraging it. Aspire to be part of the solution to the natural and environmental destruction that plagues our civilization, like the Phoenix Valley Forward group is doing, instead of contributing to it through short-sighted plans for a hotel that would benefit no one except for an elite few.

Mike Bilger, CRNA

4101 Chesterton St SW

Roanoke, VA 24018

540-725-1426

# 24

[March 14, 2007 3:51 PM]

Dick Howard

Very good , Mike. You sound bright, informed, logical and worldly. I guess you'll be leaving the RoVa soon?

# 25

[March 14, 2007 4:46 PM]

Will

I wonder what those of you who oppose the development of a hotel and eatery on Mill Mountain would have said to the original developers of the old hotel that used to sit atop the mountain?

Roanoke has limited resources with which it can generate new sources of revenue. It's a SMALL county and city! I doubt seriously that when the residents of the city (or for that matter the county) opened up their last real estate tax statements that all jumped for joy at what their respective bills were.

Unless we find ways to supplement the tax revenues of this area, the burden is going to continue to fall upon the declining population of the city. I continually hear people talk about wanting better shopping, better entertainment, better schools, better fire and police protection. In addition, the providers of those services from local government desire raises commensurate with what their counterparts outside the government spector receive. (Just so you'll know, I don't work in any of the valley governments.) Where's the money coming from to provide those raises?

It is interesting to note that one of the supplemental headlines on today's Roanoke.com talks about Faith Hill and Tim McGraw coming to GREENSBORO. It almost sounded condecending to Greensboro but the fact is, they have a venue to support them. Roanoke doesn't.

I go back to my post above:
Would the last person out of the dwindling population of the City of Roanoke kindly turn out the lights?

# 26

[March 15, 2007 9:53 AM]

Mike Bilger

It's interesting to me that those in favor of this project seem to be using either faulty data analysis (that's one of the most poorly constructed surveys I've ever seen), or personal attacks, in their defense of the project.
In addition, many of the people I've spoken with around the Roanoke area mistakenly believe that the "Rockledge Inn" was at the base of Mill Mt. next to Roanoke Memorial Hospital. In fact, Carilion named an adjacent house, "Rockledge," and was using it for corporate activities until it was sold to a local physician. The mansion on the old road up to the top of Mill Mt, formerly owned by Ralph Smith is also referred to as "Rockledge." So I believe that there is a fair chance that many people don't understand where this proposed hotel is going to be placed nor the impact it would have on the very limited open ground available for public recreation on the mountain.
I also believe that most people underestimate the impact the additional vehicle traffic would have. So their replies to this so called scientific survey would be uninformed at best.
Another observation I have is that it seems suspicious for a plan that was in development for 3 years, to have had no publicity until now, and there was little or no attempt to seek public input despite the fact that it is being proposed for construction in a public park.
This thing smacks of special considerations being made for politically connected, wealthy insiders, who want to do business outside the light of public scrutiny.
If you truly want to attract young professionals here, do business in a way that is ethical, and transparent.
Additionally, some questions that beg to be answered are: How is a large scale construction project going to be in any way "environmentally sensitive"? (Just the construction phase alone will disrupt wildlife habitat, and introduce many forms of pollution into a sensitive biological buffer zone.) Where are the "green-building" designs? Where are the alternative energy plans? (Just because you make it look historic, or blend it in with the surroundings doesn't make it environmentally sensitive.) To get the "world class views" that are touted as a selling point for this project, how many trees are going to be cut down, not only for the actual footprint of the building but also between it and the city below? What is the environmental impact of that? Has an environmental impact statement been done?

# 27

[March 15, 2007 11:38 AM]

Will

Quoting from Mike Bilger: "If you truly want to attract young professionals here, do business in a way that is ethical, and transparent."

My question to Mike is what would YOU do to attract young professionals to the area? Your statement smacks of political jargon that has no real substance and speaks only in generalities.

I can honestly say that I haven't seen many ideas (if any at all) coming from the ranks of the city or from other groups within Roanoke as to how to go about the task of drawing new life into the city.

Surely, there will be environmental impact studies done for this project as it is a requirement of funding for any loans that would be required to build the property. I don't think anyone has the ready cash to plop down for the project in order that it be debt free from the get go.

It's indeed tough to go through the development of a project such as this or any other. I suspect we all have the mindset of "not in my backyard" when it comes to development. The fact of the matter is that Roanoke has limited resources from which to work.

I'd love to see development of residential property along the Roanoke River once the flooding issues have been resolved but I suspect there would be some who would be opposed to that kind of development as well.

If there are other solutions to maintaining and/or increasing the revenues the area needs to provide the essential services we all want and expect, come forward with your ideas. To simply na say an someone elses idea without having a proposal of your own seems to be unfair at the least.

# 28

[March 15, 2007 2:08 PM]

James

Remember that Valley Forward would not benefit monetarily from The Rockledge. They are not proposing to re-develop the site themselves. They just want more positive things to happen in Roanoke. They are also presenting a 5K run for the Greenways project in May.

Before we tear them down, its good to remember that they are working, with Rockledge, to open up the Mountain to more people. Playing class warfare seems as petty as saying that the mountain is off limits to everyone but hikers and bikers for much of the year.

C'mon Roanoke. We've got a little mojo going with the Art Museum. Let's expand it with the Rockledge, then build back the cable car.

# 29

[March 15, 2007 5:28 PM]

Mike Bilger

To address a few of the concerns of the last two posters I have proposed alternatives to attract young professionals here. First and foremost-Do not develop public parks for private business. Follow the leads of the cities that I mentioned in my first posting. Phoenix, Chicago, Edinburgh, San Francisco, New York City in preserving urban open space for recreation by everyone-FOR FREE.
Secondly, I'm not advocating building housing developments along the Roanoke River. I'm advocating quite the opposite. Preserve that land as a riparian buffer that is open to public access for recreational purposes. Once again-FOR FREE, or more properly stated-without admission charge and without commercial development.
I also question the statement that "Valley Forward would not benefit monetarily from The Rockledge." All the reasons given so far by them have to do with business and making money. If the individuals who comprise the group Valley Forward-Roanoke, (I'm using this term instead of just Valley Forward to distinguish the local group from the one in Phoenix which is about both business and preservation of open space), honestly isn't seeking to make money on this project, let them sign individual statements stating that they will in no way, and their companies in no way will make any money whatsoever on this project. I doubt that would happen. Let's face it folks, this is all about making money and all about limiting a valuable public resource. My stand is not about limiting the mountain to only hikers and bikers. In fact the area that the hotel is proposed for is easily accessible by car for any number of free activities by anyone during the hours of operation of the park.
Finally, if you want to develop something that will make you some money and let you put your mark on the area, like your parents have, re-develop the brownfields, or run-down former warehouse and industrial areas that surround downtown. Make those areas like the Shockoe Bottom-Shockoe Slip areas of Richmond, or the area along the Chicago River near the lakefront in Chicago. Those areas were formerly blighted dangerous eyesores that have become commercial successes and have attracted young professionals.
While on the subject of Chicago, the urban redevelopment of which is a perfect example of what I'm proposing, what sorts of "green" innovations are being planned for the reincarnation of Rockledge? Chicago has just won the Sierra Club "Green City Award" for 2006. That city has taken economic liablities and turned them into useful, "cool" places and at the same time integrated very innovative environmental standards.

# 30

[March 16, 2007 12:09 AM]

Jill Elswick

On the notion of the Rockledge Inn being for "the elite." Not so. Anyone with gas in the tank could come and enjoy the space. There would be a coffee shop with sandwiches. There would be terraces with a view. Sometimes there might be a live band. It would likely be a popular place for "the peasants" to congregate.

I suspect that's one reason some people are uncomfortable with the idea. What if it's popular? What if people really, really like it?

If the Rockledge catered only to The Elite, it would risk going out of business. To keep the Rockledge afloat, The Elite would have to spend all their time there, spending all their money, eating all the steak au poivre, and drinking all the limited-production Barossa Shiraz. They would definitely NOT have time to run their businesses.

We don't make Elites like that here. Even our Elites have to work for a living.

The Inn would need Peasants Like Me to survive. It would host their $20,000 weddings, their anniversary dinners, their Girls Nights Out, and their Sunday brunches with Grandma and Grandpa.

I am a 39-year-old freelance writer with a modest income. I am professional but not "young" and not "elite." I support Valley Forward's effort to re-build the Rockledge Inn because I think it makes sense, culturally and economically, for the region.

# 31

[March 16, 2007 1:06 AM]

Harry White

Mr. Bilger- You almost sound like you're in the Sierra Club :). J/K

I, personally, hope the Rockledge Inn comes back. Most of my friends never came back after college, and I think we could use some new, out of the box thinking. I'd love to take my in-laws up there (and check my mother-in-law into a room...shhhh!) for Sunday brunch or biking. As long it is sensitive to the mountain, it would such a cool place to visit. It would be fun to go to dinner, then a zoo tour- maybe that would help them.
Cheers!

# 32

[March 16, 2007 9:59 AM]

Dick howard

Will. To compare the orig RLI to the VF proposal is simply a case of apples to oranges. The orig RLI was built before the auto was invented so access to the mtn was largely by cable car. There was no need for the 250 plus parking spaces that will be needed to service this VF complex, no need to construct a sewer line 2.2 miles down to the city, there was no zoo, no Star and no discovery Center already in place at the summit. What WAS there then that is NOT there now was space for a small, low key inn and restaurant. By today's standards it was quaint, even primative but totally inadequate by 21st century standards. Remember, we are talking about an orig RLI that was built when electric lights were a novelty!
Greensboro has the venue to support the big concerts simply because they have lots more nearby population to draw from. It has nothing to do with our lack of hipness or low cool factor.
I keep hearing stuff like " they are working to open the mountain to more people". It's like some people are obsessed with getting MORE on Mill Mountain and that MORE is better all the while losing sight of the fact that the "more" to which they aspire will destroy the remaining good that is up there. But of course to their way of thinking, More equals Good.
Could someone please explain how $20 entrees, $100 rooms and $7 glasses of wine open the summit of Mill Mountain Park to anything more than the elite? ( I'm not counting those "fortunates" who will be granted access by virtue of their minimum wage jobs changing the linens or washing the dishes.) There seems to be a misconception that everyone who drives on the Blue Ridge Parkway does so in a Lexus and that these Lexi driving folk would flock to the new RLI and, thru trickle down economics, come on down to the Star City. I think trickle down economics failed in the 80's. Just a short drive to Mabry Mill for breakfast or Peaks of Otter for dinner will show that Parkway visitors seem to be overwhelmingly middle class. Such a visit would also show that both venues offer much more on site than a sad little zoo and the World's Largest Neon Star. Would also show that Mabry Mill restaurant and Peaks of Otter Lodge and Restaurant blend perfectly into and compliment their environments.
Are we convinced that if tourists would just visit our downtown just once that they would go home and tell all their friends and they would go home and tell all their friends etc and suddenly Roanoke becomes Asheville and people will start moving here, large companies will relocate and it's all because of the new RLI??? Well, if people REALLY believe that then the new RLI is indeed THE ANSWER. But who on this board believes that?? There is an answer but it is a complicated one and leaders who are incapable of thinking outside the box will never get it. We don't need VF to remind us that our Best and Brightest are leaving the RoVa. The mere existance of the VF proposal is evidence enough that the Average and Not-So-Bright have been left in charge.

# 33

[March 16, 2007 11:24 AM]

Harry White

Roanoke is losing population and young people at an alarming rate because of our "can't do" attitude. We are not Chicago, New York or any other such city that can rely on a wide array of different urban amenities to drive our economy. We have as much green as anyone- 99% of which is untouched. We have the AT, Nat'l Forests, Explore Park, the RRiver, greenways, Roanoke Mountain, Carvins Cove, etc, etc. Must we lock away ALL natural areas completely?

MM Park is a park by default- because the Rockledge Inn was burned down. Otherwise, Rockledge would still be there. It seems a bit selfish to not share MM's wonders with those who are not in the small minority of hikers & bikers. I say- bring back Rockledge and let us all enjoy Mill Mountain and, hopefully, bring something "cool" to Roanoke.

# 34

[March 16, 2007 11:54 AM]

Jen

My apologies for my absence and lack of replies. I appreciate the views expressed here, but I still think that people are still a bit short sighted on jumping on board with the idea of Rockledge Inn. There has been a lot of bantering back and forth about who will use it, etc. Still neglected in the conversation and proposal is environmental impact. As Dick mentioned construction of the lodge will require a sewer line to run the waste water from the mountain, adding concrete, asphalt etc during construction will add to the amount of rain water run off leading to soil erosion as well as additional water on the homes and valley below. Oh yea, don't forget there is wildlife that lives on the mountain. Also neglected in this conversation is the fact that the roads up and down aren't exactly the most friendly to increased traffic (that is if anyone is going up to the lodge).

As I've said, I'm not opposed to progress in Roanoke, I just don't feel that development of a public park is the way to go. The localities in the Valley need to focus on bringing in jobs. This is the primary reason people leave Roanoke. I'm working a job getting paid a decent wage, but if I wanted to get a job using the degree that I went back to school for, I'd have to leave Roanoke. There is definitely a lack of diversity in occupations here. If you think Norfolk Southern is the answer, I hate to tell you, but you're mistaken. Ask anyone who has worked there for years what's going on (that is how many jobs have been cut or moved out of state.)

A lodge in a public park isn't going to help. Tourism is Roanoke isn't going to help. We need jobs here otherwise people are going to leave.

Anyway, let the debate continue.

# 35

[March 16, 2007 12:11 PM]

Will

To Dick Howard...

Dick, the fact of the matter is I don't care whether the people drive a Lexus or a Chevy to get to Roanoke, Mill Mountain or any other attraction that we might be able to offer as a source of revenue for this area. What I would like to see are things that attract people to the area that a) might entice them to come back, b) might entice them to tell their friends to come visit, c) might entice them to want to move here. As a result they might perhaps start a business that 1) will employ people in the area, and 2) enhance the revenue stream of both the city and the county whereby the current homeowners don't continually have to bear the brunt of increased real estate taxes to fund the services required of the area residents.

I would hope that this debate would not deteriorate to a fight between the current "hand wringing na sayers to any kind of development of Roanoke" and the folks that would like to see Roanoke move in a direction that is slightly ahead of 1980. It is after all 2007. But, if necessary, then it may just have to come to the point where those who want Roanoke to move forward will have to take control of Roanoke.

The simple fact is that the population of the city is decreasing. I haven't seen any great strides in replacing the dwindling population with new residents nor have I seen any great strides at replacing residential areas with commercial revenue generating business.

Roanoke has become stagnant and for at least the last ten years its been going slowly downhill. If you want to continue to pay increased taxes to cover the expenses of the city, then more power to you. I, for one, would like to spread the expense over a wider source of revenue and consequently relieve some of the burden on the current residents.

# 36

[March 16, 2007 12:19 PM]

Harry White

DICK-

With respect, your comment on the sewer is incorrect. There is working sewer on the mountain.

# 37

[March 16, 2007 5:04 PM]

Dick Howard

Harry,
A well informed city employee has told me that the summit on MM Park is served by an old septic field that is barely adequate for the Zoo and Dicsovery Center. In order to accomodate a 65 room inn, restaurant, cafe, conference center etc. a sewer line would have to be constructed 2.2 miles the road down to the city or a new, much larger septic system built at the summit. Such a new septic system would cover and area of about 100 x 300 feet and of course all the trees would need to be cut within this area. And this is ALL assuming that the ground on the summit would sufficiently perk. It gets complicated.

# 38

[March 17, 2007 12:25 PM]

Dick Howard

Just curious. Are there any VF members posting here?

# 39

[March 17, 2007 4:36 PM]

Brian Batteiger : →http://www.vast-network.org

This has been some interesting reading and is obviously a hot topic. First off, I don’t think you need to worry about turning the lights out in the Roanoke Valley. This area is growing, maybe too fast. I love this area. I moved here from Chicago area on purpose because it is the best place I have lived. The lightly developed mountains around the city are wonderful to look at, and play on. I never plan to leave this area unless it becomes too overdeveloped like Chicago area was. Most of the people I meet like the area because it is easy to get around and has all the outdoor activities with easy access from the City. So yes, we do need to think seriously about every development idea and how it affects the quality of life for the kinds of people this area wishes to attract.

Do we want just another generic big city like DC, Atlanta, Chicago? Would it be better to consider what our strengths are and to enhance them to make a very successful city serving more of a niche market?

I am very excited about the work Valley Forward is doing to promote the Greenways. I think this fits exactly into the direction I would like to see this area improve. I think if we had an incredible interconnected greenway system, then we would enhance our existing outdoor oriented niche market. People and business that like this healthy lifestyle will come to this area. People that love the traffic jams and pollution can move to one of the many areas that serve that sort of population.

OK, this is supposed to be about the lodge, so I better make a comment or two about it. First off, don’t we have to know what is going to happen at Explore Park first? If they are going to build a lodge, then would it make since to build one on Mill Mt also? I tend to feel the space is limited up on the mountain top. I would be more open to the idea of a unique restaurant/bar with extensive and unique multilevel decking overlooking the City. It would be a place to hang out after outdoor activities nearby. It would be a place to bring visitors to show them how the rest of the mountain is wild and wooded. A cable car going up to this restaurant from the greenways and parks below could be pretty cool and be outdoorsy. It seems to me that a lodge/motel might cheapen the experience if it would even be a viable business. I certainly don’t feel the city should subsidize this business in any way beyond maybe the cable car and of course carefully renting the public land.

# 40

[March 17, 2007 6:20 PM]

Mike Bilger

So, let me get all this straight.
1. Roanoke isn't cool now so people don't want to come here. But . .
2. If this Rockledge place gets built Roanoke will be cool and people will want to come here. And . .
3. People can just hang out at this Rockledge place without buying anything, like they can in the park now?
4. No one is going to make any money on it, it's just for altruistic reasons, or the people who do make money on it have no connections with the people who want it built?
5. It's not going to have any negative environmental impact on Mill Mt or the surrounding area.
6. There is no other place to put it other than the very limited space found in this public park.
7. This Rockledge place has to include a hotel and parking garage, not just be some sort of low-key cafe, to be cool?
8. All of this is academic because it's already a "done deal" and it's going to be built no matter what the public says or does?
9. For a place to be "cool" it has to have lots of "stuff to do" and spend money on, because we can't survive our miserable lives without constant entertainment and of course unlimited dining experiences with a view.
10. That North Carolina family mentioned on the VF-Roanoke website that drives down the BR Parkway to this destination place has driven hours on the winding Parkway for the natural experience of it all, to end up looking thru the pollution at urban Roanoke sprawling in the distance?
Fill me in people; other than this nebulous "cool factor" "mojo" and yuppie magnetism, what is the benefit of this thing as placed in the limited space of Mill Mt Park, other than being some sort of ego booster for the young bucks who are proposing it?
---And to set the record straight, I am a Sierra Club member, but my opinions have absolutely nothing to do with the Sierra Club. I was just using Chicago as an example of reasonable and sustainable development that is environmentally friendly. I am also not a native of these parts, and really don't have any stake in this issue one way or the other. I'm purely speaking towards the principle of the thing-- namely that businesses should not be built on public park lands, especially when there is a study just released showing that Roanoke needs to better fund and organize its parks. This city will be much better off if there is a concerted effort to preserve open space that is central and open to all for outdoor recreational purposes. This is not a new concept and one that has been used successfully in many other municipalities. Build your Inn, but not at that site on the top of Mill Mt. Build it in back of the zoo, down towards the Fishburn monument, or someplace that is unused, like at the bottom of the mountain, not in a place that would take out half of the open recreational space on the top of the mountain. That's my advice and that's all I have to say on the matter. Good luck with it.

# 41

[March 17, 2007 10:44 PM]

Valerie Garner

Valley Forward,
Come save the gateway into Roanoke April 3rd at William Fleming High School Auditorium at 7:00 PM - Countryside Golf Course is to be developed - the indoor tennis facility destroyed and no hope for repairing the competition size pool. Flying in over the golf course by way of runway six is appealing to any visitor. Those staying at the airport hotels use it - J&J is adjacent to it. An interested party in J&J building remarked that they were concerned what was going to happen to the golf course and well never inquired again. Again, there is a public meeting April 3rd at William Fleming High School Auditorium at 7:00 PM to present a developer's plans that will end this heavily used golf course. It is used by fathers and sons - husbands and wives - young and old - shines with diversity. If Valley Forward cares for Roanoke they will support all areas. The March 13th presentation by Mr. Younger identified the need for recreation here. Valley Forward, stretch alittle - think out of the South Roanoke box. Come join us to create a "vision" for this property other than tax base to support recreation opportunity in South Roanoke. This is a challenge to Valley Forward!

Chair, Countryside Neighborhood Alliance

# 42

[March 18, 2007 12:50 AM]

Jebediah

Roanoke is in need of careers for the 20-35 something crowd we are trying to atract. With out a competative job market to support the bright young hipsters, they will not stay. They will leave and go to other urban areas with better job opportunities.
I would like to see Valley Forwards first efforts be directed towards enhancing our job base, then once your hipster population is embedded in Roanoke I would cater to them.

A hotel in Roanoke will bring visitors. Careers in Roanoke will bring residents.

I am 35 years old by the way. So I am from the crowd we are trying to attract. Roanokes Natural resources and Mill Mt's park is one of the primary reasons I stayed in Roanoke for over 10 years.

Lets Progress Roanoke. Change is Good, but lets fix our job infastructure first and support are exsiting local attractions first.

# 43

[March 18, 2007 5:40 PM]

Question Authority

This survey is not scientifically valid in the least--there are problems with not only the wording of the questions asked, but in the number of people in the survey sample and the way in which they were selected. I'm not expressing an opinion for or against the inn; rather, I'm saying the survey by "Dr. Chas Houston" doesn't tell us anything at all.

# 44

[March 19, 2007 9:36 AM]

Dick Howard

I think Brian Batteiger may be on to something. Eliminating the 65 room lodge and the conference center from the proposal will leave a much smaller building, cut the needed parking space in half or less and reduce the amount of mountain top destruction. The incline rail/cable car idea would reduce the need for much of the parking at the summit while being in itself, a big attraction. The city could provide or contract out for public transportation between the incline parking at the base of MMP and downtown Roanoke. This would reduce downtown parking, reduce mtn top parking while providing an attractive link between the two. And this all ties in sweetly with the Greenways.
Has there ever been a cost study for recreating the incline?

# 45

[March 19, 2007 3:53 PM]

Dick Howard

Well, that's what you get when you hire a "...well known statistician".

# 46

[March 20, 2007 9:46 PM]

Dick Howard

On Thursday March 22 at 4 pm at the Discovery Center on the summit of Mill Mountain the Mill Mountain Advisory Committee will hold it's monthly meeting. The VF proposal for the Rockledge Inn will be discussed. The media have been invited. This meeting is open to the public and all city residents as well as non-city residents are welcome.

# 47

[March 21, 2007 10:54 AM]

Darla Smith

I do not understand the concern here.

For 84 years (1892-1976) Rockledge Inn sat atop Mill Mountain. How would replacing this Inn “destroy” the mountain any more than the first Inn did? Are those who are concerned with “the environment” somehow claiming that the mountain was “destroyed” when the Rockledge Inn was in business? That doesn’t make any sense.

Why wouldn’t we want to do anything we could to attract attention to our beautiful mountain? Further, why not do anything possible to take advantage of the beautiful views that the valley has to offer? Not everyone is a hiker or a biker, an Inn will give everyone visiting or living in the Roanoke Valley an opportunity to enjoy the mountain.

# 48

[March 22, 2007 6:26 AM]

Dick Morgan

Mill Mountain is a very small mountain. In many other regions around the world, this mountain would be refered to as a hill. Placing what appears to be a very unremarkable motel on top of Mill Mountain will destroy the very essence of what makes Mill Mountain a natural asset to the region. This notion that putting a motel on the mountain is for the betterment of Roanoke is but a smokescreen designed to conceal a caper smelling of wealth and greed for those involved. If this area needs a hilltop motel so badly then take this whole project and shove it onto the top of that ugly and offensive mess over by Electric Road and 220. Leave Mill Mountain alone!

# 49

[March 27, 2007 10:56 AM]

Joni

From their web site and news reports, I gather that Valley Forward supports keeping the Valley progressive while breaking out of the negative thinking that surrounded the ongoing Victory Stadium hand-wringing.

Valley Forward is committed to the Greenways project, even presenting a Gallop 4 the Greenways 5K in May to raise awareness of the project.

Valley Forward wants to open the Mountain up for more people to enjoy - a place where people from all over the Valley can come and share a $2 cup of coffee from a proposed coffee shop, rent a bike or use a locker as a jumping off point to use the Mill Mountain trails. To keep Roanoke's greatest asset for use by a few hearty souls who now brave the elements (hikers and bikers) is unfair and elitist.

With this project, there could be nature education programs and a jumping off point for school tours to enjoy the trails on Mill Mountain. Think big, Roanoke! Solitude abounds all around the Valley with the Blue Ridge Parkway and its numerous overlooks, Explore Park, The Appalachain Trail and so much more.

Let's not let class envy and negativism destroy an opportunity to do something great. From what I have read, Valley Forward stands not to make a dime off the Rockledge Inn, and wants to move this project forward in an environmentally sensitive way that benefits ALL Roanokers.

I support rebuilding the Rockledge Inn and Valley Forward.

# 50

[March 27, 2007 12:11 PM]

Jen

Joni - Where were you this weekend? Looked like far more than hikers and bikers on Mill Mountain to me. In fact, when was the last time you went to Mill Mountain?

Do people not understand that a project of this magnitude is NOT going to be environmentally wise??? You wonder why the deer are so abundant in town now. HELLO? Developing the natural areas around Roanoke has driven them from their natural habitats.

I don't care that Valley Forward isn't going to make a dime off of this project. What I care about is a public park that they want to destroy. Building this Inn where they want it will pretty much wipe out 75% of the greenspace around the lower overlook. Most of that area will be unuseable during construction. This likely includes the parking lot closest to the zoo. I don't think all the facts are being shared. I'm still shaking my head at the idea of this moving forward. AN INN ON MILL MOUNTAIN WILL NOT BRING JOBS TO ROANOKE, IT WILL NOT INCREASE THE TAX BASE IN ROANOKE AND I DOUBT IT WILL HELP TOURISM. Take off your blinders please!

# 51

[March 28, 2007 5:49 PM]

Mike Bilger

Hey Joni,
FYI, the Mill Mt Discovery Center--at this very moment-- provides nature programs for adults, families, homeschooled children, boys and girls scouts, outreach programs for city schools (free from local business sponsors) and after school programs. In addition they offer programs about local flora and fauna, and meet SOLs for city schools, and meet badge requirements for the scouts. They also offer nature hikes, birding, composting, recycling and so much more. They have been doing all this for quite some time now and the program information is published and sent to all city residents.

Maybe if you "braved the elements" and went up there, you would know this . . .? You might also run into the multitudes who drive up there for picnics and other recreational activities.

It's amazing to me how the rhetoric is heating up over this project and the level of attack that has been brought about.

Let's just have some good, open public discussions instead of this ridiculous public relations style campaign and back-door dealing that has been going on.

# 52

[July 5, 2007 12:28 PM]

NynaMurray

Roanoke is in dire need of a dinner theatre. If development of MM is to be, let it be a theatre similar to Woldhart Haus in Wytheville That theatre is a beautiful one-story building that would not detract from the valley view as a several story Inn/restautant would and would not require as large a parking area. There are, almost daily, buses leaving Roanoke for Wytheville or Greensboro filled with passengers going to enjoy dinner and a show. Why can't we do the same in Roanoke without having to catch a bus or drive for one or two hours? It could, perhaps,be combined with Mill Mountain Theatre (which started there) and eliminate the nightmare of parking to enjoy the shows.