The Roanoke Times: RoundTable

Comments

# 1

[April 11, 2008 2:32 PM]

Henry

The question is not "What do we want?". The question is "What can we afford?".

I would love to have a bottle of Rothschilds Lafite but I can only afford the Sutter Home.

# 2

[April 11, 2008 2:41 PM]

c. trejbal

Parse it how you like, Henry. We can't afford 44 percent of the money budgeted in the six-year plan. Which projects would you cut to balance the books?

# 3

[April 11, 2008 3:37 PM]

Henry

These are revenue projections. They are not revenue. If you are telling me that Virginia will take in less money next year, I'll probably scoff at that. I need to see the pattern of growth. All that projection stuff is a guess.

The problem is that Kaine wants to spend a lot more money than we have and the only way he can do that is raise taxes. I don't think Virginia's biggest problem is that its citizens have too much money in their pocket. If Governor Kaine can afford a new pre-K initiative, we must be doing pretty well.

# 4

[April 11, 2008 3:59 PM]

c. trejbal

Yes, they are revenue projections. No one argues that. They happen to be the revenue projections on which the six-year transportation improvement plan was based. Since the projections are now significantly lower than originally thought, the plan must be adjusted.

As for pre-K, the assembly budgeted a $22 million increase. Over six years that gets you to $132 million. Even if you could cut, which you can't at this point, you'd still have a billion dollars to go.

What would you cut from the six-year plan?

# 5

[April 11, 2008 4:17 PM]

BUD

I agree with Henry-- here's the $$$ we have coming in--what can we fund?? what is the top priority--2nd, 3rd etc. Has mass transit been exhausted in congested areas? Is a non stop commute found in the Bill of Rights? As others have stated, we have a budget shortfall but Kaine wants to expand social programs(pre K)--Nothing wrong with having a few RALPH SMITH types to balance out the tax and spenders in other regions.

# 6

[April 11, 2008 4:32 PM]

Other John

THere's not much to cut from the six year plan if you look at it. I've reviewed the list of projects for various counties and the list is quite pathetic. Most are minor improvements, not major overhauls or widenings. With labor and materials costs continuing to increase, VA is going to come to a point where no work can be done with VDOT structured as it is now. Perhaps it is time to look at de-centralizing VDOT and putting the maintenance back to the counties, like almost every other state has done. It would eliminate the vast overhead problems of VDOT and give localities better control over how/where to target improvements and development, without having to plead with VDOT to do as they would like. Regardless though, transportation money will still largely go to the metro areas while rural locations see less and less funding. Without a major system overhaul, that won't change, even if funding is increased.

# 7

[April 11, 2008 4:44 PM]

Henry

I wouldn't cut anything. I would just postpone it. If the money shows up, go for it.

Why would you cut something based on projections that are in the future?

# 8

[April 11, 2008 4:53 PM]

c. trejbal

Henry, you dance like a ballerina. Fine, which projects would you postpone? Or, to put it another way that you will probably like better: What $1.1 billion worth of projects on the list are the lowest priorities?

# 9

[April 11, 2008 7:32 PM]

Josh

Have I mentioned this? Let's cut the hell out of the bottomless pit mislabeled "education"?

# 10

[April 11, 2008 7:54 PM]

Henry

Cut all this

T999970 STATEWIDE ENHANCEMENT PROGRAM Enhancement $0 $17,528 $90,704
T999990 STATEWIDE RAIL PROGRAM Rail $0 $9,109 $26,196
50533 VIRGINIA CREEPER TRAIL - REPAIR OF HISTORIC BRIDGES Bristol Enhancement $910 $756 $0 $0 $154
50534 BREAKS INTERSTATE PARK PEDESTRIAN TRAIL Bristol Enhancement $250 $251 $0 $0
50535 CONSTRUCTION OF JOHN ANDERSON BLOCKHOUSE Bristol Enhancement $284 $285 $0 $0
50536 ACCESS ROAD, WALKING TRAIL & RELATED FACILITIES Bristol Enhancement $286 $229 $0 $0 $57
50537 TRAILHEAD, RELATED FACILITIES & RESTORATION Bristol Enhancement $300 $308 $0 $0
50563 FISHER PEAK MOUNTAIN MUSIC INTERPRETIVE CENTER Bristol Enhancement $2,771 $0 $0
50565 BIRCH KNOB TRAIL - TRAILHEAD & RELATED FACILITIES Bristol Enhancement $256 $0 $0
56404 CONSTRUCT RIVERWALK THROUGHOUT TOWN OF POUND Bristol Enhancement $722 $275 $19 $22 $40
56405 CONSTRUCT SIDEWALKS AND BICYCLE LANES-RURAL RETREAT Bristol Enhancement $838 $903 $0 $0
56406 RENOVATION OF HISTORIC HILLMAN HOUSE AS A WELCOME CENTER Bristol Enhancement $190 $118 $29 $33 $10
59759 CITY OF BRISTOL - RESTORE TRAIN STA. FOR USE AS TRANS.CENTER Bristol Enhancement $6,711 $2,767 $334 $390 $3,220
59760 CONSTRUCT BIRDING/WILDLIFE TRAIL AT NEW RIVER STATE PARK Bristol Enhancement $30 $473 $191 $223
63546 DICKENSON COUNTY - CRANENEST RIVER TRAIL Bristol Enhancement $755 $454 $124 $145 $32
65277 KANE GAP SECTION AQUISITION Bristol Enhancement $1 $220 $0 $0
T278 511 Virginia - Travel Information Bristol Interstate $1,400 $1,400 $0 $0
70662 I-81 MODEL SAFETY CORRIDOR Bristol Interstate $247 $2,025 $250 $4,850
16836 RUMBLE STRIP Bristol Interstate $66 $196 $0 $0
18924 RTE 77 - TUNNEL REFURBISHMENT 0077 Bristol Interstate $9,654 $7,784 $1,870 $0 $0
18926 RTE 77 - TUNNEL REFURBISHMENT 0077 Bristol Interstate $9,322 $7,453 $1,870 $0 $0
51441 RTE 77 - LOCATION STUDY (PE ONLY) 0077 Bristol Interstate $6,000 $2,731 $625 $2,644 $0
52282 RTE 77 - BRIDGE REHABILITATION NORTHBOUND & SOUTHBOUND 0077 Bristol Interstate $48,200 $45,838 $2,362 $0
17745 RTE 81 - INTERCHANGE IMPROVEMENTS 0081 Bristol Interstate $98,402 $7,164 $275 $59,469 $31,494
67587 RTE 81 - DEVELOPMENT OF NEPA DOCUMENT 0081 Bristol Interstate $9,434 $8,934 $0 $500 $0
68717 RTE 81 - PPTA PROJECT DEVELOPMENT & MANAGEMENT 0081 Bristol Interstate $3,208 $700 $0 $0
77424 RTE 81 - CORRIDOR SAFETY IMPROVEMENTS 0081 Bristol Interstate $0 $0 $7,217
82337 REPLACE STRUCTURE #2026 ON I-81 0081 Bristol Interstate $1,941 $21 $0 $1,920 $0
82341 REPLACE STRUCTURE #2027 ON I-81 0081 Bristol Interstate $1,941 $21 $0 $1,920 $0
84672 Extend Off Ramp - I81 - Northbound and Soutbound - Exit 77 0081 Bristol Interstate $1,400 $0 $750 $650
85730 Correct non-standard superelevation in SB lane of I-81 0081 Bristol Interstate $4,700 $0 $500 $4,200 $0
85733 Correction to superelevation problem on NB lanes of I-81 0081 Bristol Interstate $400 $0 $400 $0 $0
85791 Corrections to superelevation on SB lanes of I-81 0081 Bristol Interstate $700 $0 $0 $700 $0
85792 Extend Northbound d Southbound Deceleration Lanes at Exit 80 0081 Bristol Interstate $1,900 $0 $0 $1,900 $0
70452 BRISTOL INTERSTATE DISTRICTWIDE GUARDRAIL IG00 Bristol Interstate $203 $253 $0 $0
70608 BRISTOL INTERSTATE DISTRICTWIDE SIGNS IS00 Bristol Interstate $5,663 $4,555 $0 $0
70607 BRISTOL INTERSTATE DISTRICTWIDE SIGNALS ISG0 Bristol Interstate $900 $102 $0 $0
T4568 PE - Future Projects to be Determined PE00 Bristol Interstate $0 $0 $1,200
57666 A Study to Provide Access to Wise Airport Area Bristol Miscellaneous $559 $500 $0 $0 $59
81124 GREEN COVE STATION IMPROVEMENTS TO FOREST SERVICE FACILITY Bristol Miscellaneous $100 $45 $19 $22 $13
First Previous [ 4 of 232 Pages ] Next Last

That's just the first 4 pages. I can keep going. You seem to think the problem is that we can't afford to live without a Historic Hillman House Improvement. I say we can.

# 11

[April 11, 2008 8:32 PM]

Ed S.

I scanned a few quick items under the NoVA section that could be cut/postponed. Recreational facility, traffic calming, probably some others but the short summary doesn't always give an indicator of what the project is.

As Josh noted, trasnportation isn't the only place that needs to be cut.

# 12

[April 11, 2008 8:49 PM]

Jim

If there are any public transport plans, then I would start cutting there. All public transportation is subsidized, that is not profitable, outside of the intensely dense areas of NYC.

It's clear that cutting taxes can make the difference between a deficit and no deficit. You yourself said that those elected represent the people and the people must have said cut taxes.

# 13

[April 11, 2008 8:49 PM]

c. trejbal

I don't think there's a problem, Henry. If voters elect anti-tax ideologues, they deserve the curtailed services they will get. I just was curious what you folks thought should fall off the plan.

Ed, whether there are other things that could be cut -- and there are -- the discussion at hand is transportation. VDOT has no control over those other budgets and must adjust its own spending priorities. And, btw, it's awfully kind of you to volunteer cuts elsewhere. Forty-four percent of the projects in this part of the state catch your eye for elimination?

# 14

[April 11, 2008 10:01 PM]

Ed S.

Christian, I live in Fairfax County. The cuts that I mentioned are in my "backyard".

I'd be happy to suggest cuts in your neck of the woods (I grew up in Galax, attended VT, and my wife is from Roanoke)...I'm familiar with the area but not enough with the pieces that I skimmed.

Fairfax is ripe for some cuts, as they are partially responsible for bringing on the pain they whine about. They approved many large-scale residential building projects on roads that couldn't support them, and I feel their push to subsidized housing allowed growth beyond what the area could naturally hold. Now the government whines about needing new roads, bigger roads...yet proudly proclaims their growth.

I know the original discussion was transportation. Was this money originally "colored" for transportation by law? Otherwise, money for necessary maintenance could be diverted from other programs, as Josh and Henry noted.

# 15

[April 11, 2008 10:18 PM]

c. trejbal

I apologize, Ed. I commend you for finding stuff in your own neck of the wood.

As you know, some of the money is earmarked, some isn't. For the upcoming budget year, at least, the budget is basically set, so VDOT needs to make cuts. I think we can assume, as well, that lawmakers that have consistently funded education and other programs Josh and Henry think should be slashed at about the same levels aren't going to change their minds.

# 16

[April 11, 2008 10:40 PM]

Blue John

We could save lots of money if we would just put up signs on the highways entering the state that read - "Virginia Is Closed For Business And Recreation".

On a more serious note, some of the projects on Henrys' list are safety related projects. As I said before, do we want to wait until a bridge falls to take action?

# 17

[April 11, 2008 11:36 PM]

Josh

"If voters elect anti-tax ideologues, they deserve the curtailed services they will get."

This implies those who vote anti-tax and those who pay the taxes are two different groups.

Try the inverse of this and see if it makes sense: "If voters elect people who raise taxes, then they deserve the increased programs they will get." Again, those who don't care if taxes get raised aren't the ones paying them.

# 18

[April 11, 2008 11:54 PM]

Josh

Yes Blue John, and twenty years from now, do we want somebody to go on a killing spree all because the GOP refused to totally fund pre-K?

I think it's important we
always look for the most disastrous possible outcome.

# 19

[April 12, 2008 8:31 AM]

Will

Josh...

It seems your answer to just about every revenue/spending situation is to cut funding for education.

My question to you then becomes who is going to fund education for kids? In today's tax environment, parents get tax breaks for having kids. Maybe we should change that loophole in the tax code.

I think your answer tends to be broad stroked and without merit. You continually contend that funding K-12 education programs has proven unsuccessful. I challenge you to come up with statistics that demonstrate what the consequences would have been without K-12 funding.

I don't know why you don't like funding education.

# 20

[April 12, 2008 8:58 AM]

Ed S.

Christian, no apology necessary. I've only mentioned it a couple of times on here, and most of the other posters are probably from the Roanoke area (or closer than I am). I just like to keep tabs on what's going on "down there" because we plan to move back to SW Virginia sometime.

And you're right. Nobody is going to want to cut their projects.

# 21

[April 12, 2008 10:06 AM]

Josh

Will,

You mistake all education funding for actual beneficial results. This is often how liberals and other non-producers think. It's why they continue to be non-producers. Results matter.

The cuts I call for deal with divisive political programs of dubious value such as women's studies and black studies departments at universities. I also contend teacher education departments are completely unnecessary. Same with so many education adminstrative positions.

# 22

[April 12, 2008 11:23 AM]

Will

Josh...

Your response still seems rather broad brushed in nature. I pointed out in my earlier post that you need to point to specific results should there be a reduction in the funding. You just say that there have been no beneficial results.

I would suspect that the interpretation of benefits can get a bit subjective both on the liberal and conservative side of the coin.

As for your categorization that women's and black studies are politically divisive...I only ask you to provide specifics of how they are.

Regarding teacher education...I don't know why you wouldn't want teachers always on the leading edge. Things change from the time one graduates. I can tell that just from when I graduated to now. That seems kinda shortsighted at best.

# 23

[April 12, 2008 11:09 PM]

Josh

Will,

My responses as to what programs should be cut were very specific,

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how Black studies and Women's studies programs are divisive. The thread running through both is that they are each victims, and the white male is the predator. I had to take a couple of black lit courses as an undergrad, and the whole aura was about victimhood. Even back then when I was relatively apolitical, I found it tiresome.

Recently the University Women's group laid out guidelines as to what is acceptable behavior from a man in a relationship. At every step, the man was supposed to ask the woman for permission; permission to hold hands, permission to kiss, and of course, permission to go all the way (no surprise there; after all these are libs). The reality is, of course, these so-called guidelines are asinine and useless. Can you imagine anyone following them? Yet taxpayers have to put out for this type of bilge.

And finally, what makes you think teacher ed courses help teachers become "cutting edge"? I can tell you first hand experience what little good that might be gained from teacher ed programs is in no way commensurate with the taxpayer funding required to fund it. Isn't it interesting, for example, that the very best teachers come from business and industry? The physicist who becomes a high school math teacher; the doctor who teaches human physiology. These people didn't become great through teacher education programs.

# 24

[April 13, 2008 9:21 AM]

Blue John

This post is a perfect example of what goes on in Richmond, and why Virginia is fast becoming a mediocre non-progressive state.
Partisian bickering accomplishes nothing, and only serves to exacerbate the real problems facing the state.
I don't think anyone doesn't agree that cuts can be made in most programs, but only the most naive think that entire programs can and will be eliminated. I wonder how some of the most vocal would feel if their position at work was suddenly eliminated? How would these same folks feel if VDOT decided to eliminate snow removal procedures in their county?
One needs to look at the big picture as opposed to reiterating their parties mantra, and try to take a balanced approach toward the future that we leave our children.

# 25

[April 13, 2008 9:38 AM]

Will

Josh...

I'm laughing so hard at your last post that I almost spewed my coffee all over my computer!

If you think back at any time during history...there have been victims and villians. The white pre-revolutionary male in what was then the British Colonies was a victim of the tyranny of England.

People have decided to boil the studies down to more fundimental basics of race, religion and gender. I do believe that understanding does help to avoid conflict. I don't know about the kind of family you were raised in, but I was taught to be a gentleman one should be courteous to a woman. This could consist of something as simple as "May I hold your coat" or "May I hold the door for you" or something like a slight inquisitive glace in someone's eyes before taking their hand so as to say "Is it okay?" There are a lot of ways of seeking permission from someone but to see your response, it almost sounds cro-magnonisk...just do it because you're the man.

As for the last part of your response, I would suggest that most of of those folks who are great in business and industry and then moved to teaching took some form of that continuing teaching education to move from the lab or boardroom to the classroom. One doesn't necessarily beget the other.

But overall, thanks for the great laugh this morning!

# 26

[April 13, 2008 10:46 AM]

Chris

Will,

Some of Josh's examples may go to the extreme for emphasis, but his description of the studies that defined appropriate behavior for men in a relationship are accurate. I sat through the same course @ VA Tech before it was called women's studies. They taught exactly what Josh said. The man should ask permission every step of the way while the woman bore no responsibility for any of her actions. She could behave anyway she wanted in the relationship, but the man could not react without asking permission.

The teacher of this class said that a woman should be able to get falling down drunk and dance naked on table at a frat party and do so with no worry of being groped, assaulted, etc.

When members of the class said they agreed that in an ideal world everyone should be safe from physical assault, but that in the real world, the behavior she described was risky and that individual's who voluntarily engaged in such risky behavior put themselves in the position of being harmed, whether deserved or not, she immediately labeled us all as abusers of women. Not really demonstrative of open communication and an "understanding" that helps to avoid conflict.

Blue,

San Francisco has long been considered a progressive city. If being progressive means Virginia has degenerate into a permisive, amoral cess pool of liberalism like SF, I'll stick with partisan mediocrity.

# 27

[April 13, 2008 11:51 AM]

Blue John

Chris,

Your comments equating S.F. and liberalism to being progressive are a classic example of what needs to change.
Thanks for illustrating my point!

PS: My bad on spelling partisan with an extra I.

# 28

[April 13, 2008 1:40 PM]

Henry

How would these same folks feel if VDOT decided to not build the John Anderson Blockhouse or renovate the Historic Hillman House?

# 29

[April 13, 2008 3:42 PM]

Chris

Blue,

I think we illustrate each other's points. The traditional definition of progressive has been forward thinking and open-minded. However, liberals have taken progressive as their own buzz word and perverted it into the secular progresive philosophy that champions anything that is non-traditional, no matter how subversive the cause.

The S-P's then assail anyone who holds traditional values as an ignorant, closed-minded, dinosaur from days gone by.

So if by progressive you are speaking of the proper definition of progressive, I can support that.

But if by progressive you mean a society that requires us to legalize drugs, abolish the death penalty, keep violent criminals out of prison, renounce any religious beliefs, hate the military, hold gay pride festivals every other week, open the borders, adopt the native tongue of illegal aliens as our national language, blame ourselves for all the wrongs in the world, and convert from capitalism to socialism, then I'll pick being non-progressive.

I still wonder why when a liberal refuses to compromise their beliefs and values they think of themselves as principled and righteous, but when a conservative does the same thing, they liberals describe them with words like partisan and obstructionist.

# 30

[April 13, 2008 4:09 PM]

Blue John

After reading a couple of the previous posts concerning attitudes that still exist toward women, I think that Va. Tech should make the Women's Studies courses defining appropriate behavior for men mandatory.

Henry, I feel that you have made a good start toward credibility by paring your list of VDOT projects. Keep up the good work.

# 31

[April 13, 2008 5:00 PM]

Blue John

Chris,

I refer to my comments in post #24.

# 32

[April 13, 2008 5:01 PM]

Josh

Will,

Being a gentleman doesn't mean we have to ask at every turn. Good lord, you'd drive the woman crazy if you asked every single time you wanted to kiss her. She's think you were a spineless neurotic. But this is what these groups want men reduced to. Gotta remove every last bit of testosterone. Hillary is a good example of this femininst thinking. You can't find one alpha male among her underlings. It's either women or these sniveling men.

As far as your putting teacher ed on par with a career in business in making a good teacher, you haven't been around schools if you think that.

# 33

[April 13, 2008 6:37 PM]

Shelley

I see some would like to shut out the voices of women, minorities, and gays from campus life. Such is the avenue Hitler and Stalin chose as well. The next step is to squelch the writers, poets, and artists. Eventually what the far right wants are only the disciplines, like math, science, and chemistry which feed their military-industrial complex.
Why not let every voice be heard on our college campuses? The government can and should see to it that minorities programs have a voice, even if the rich people don't like it.

# 34

[April 13, 2008 8:45 PM]

Henry

I see some would like to hang up a strawman and beat it to death with emotionalism.

"Why not let every voice be heard on our college campuses?"

Because we don't want the KKK to have a voice on campus. Do you want the KKK to have a voice on campus?

# 35

[April 14, 2008 12:13 AM]

Blue John

OH HENRY sometimes you make me SNICKER!

# 36

[April 14, 2008 8:14 AM]

Josh

Shelley,
I would like to see a sparkling new Catholic Church built on the Virginia Tech campus with taxpayer dollars. Would your philosophy of "letting every voice be heard" include a religious pro-life perspective as well?

# 37

[April 14, 2008 8:22 AM]

olive

"The thread running through both is that they are each victims, and the white male is the predator."

I have never taken a womens studies class where we were taught that we were victims. In fact, they didn't focus on men at all, they focused on women.

"a woman should be able to get falling down drunk and dance naked on table at a frat party and do so with no worry of being groped, assaulted, etc."

Yes she should be able to. This is risky behavior in the world we live in, but, it is risky because "men" (not all men) have not always been taught to take responsibility for THEIR actions...and believe that it is ok for them to grope and assault a woman in this position. It doesn't matter what my behavior is, it's my body and no one else has a right to lay one finger on it without my permission, and no, just because I'm wasted and naked on a table does not mean I am giving you permission.
As far as teacher ed classes go, I've been around schools...a lot, I've even done some teaching myself. Simply knowing a lot about a subject does not always prepare you for teaching that subject. I think it would be a huge disadvantage to kids to do away with these programs.

# 38

[April 14, 2008 8:47 AM]

Will

Josh...

May not have been around too many schools recently (only because the root of the problems in schools rest with the parents and not nearly so much with the teachers)...but I have been around quite a few business people in the last 30 years.

Some of those are great business people, but would make lousy teachers without some training and then I'm not sure they'd make the grade.

By the way Josh, there's a marked difference between being a gentleman and being a spineless wonder. You might try it sometime.

To Chris...indeed some of the examples sited are extreme and would I have agreed with your professor at Tech? Probably not. Regrettably there has been a loss of something that many of us old codgers used to take for granted ... Common Sense.

It pretty much goes back to what I consider to be the fundimentals of religion...treat others with the same degree of care, dignity, respect and love that you yourself would like to be treated. There are those who don't have very much self esteem but I bet they still like to be treated respectfully.

# 39

[April 14, 2008 9:15 AM]

Henry

Olive

Would you expect to be able to walk through Central Park at midnight without someone laying a finger on you without permission? Why not?

# 40

[April 14, 2008 12:05 PM]

olive

I see the point you are trying to make, but I think that you missed mine. Obviously in the world we live in, no I probably would not EXPECT to walk into C.P by myself at night and not be assaulted or something. But, I do have the right to be able to do so. Its a shame that it is something we have to worry about. Men rarely have to deal with how their body makes others react...having breasts can present a host of difficulties, even in clothing. We all need to be responsible, and women especially need to be responsible enough to realize that men are not always following the rules, and protect themselves, this does not however negate the fact that a woman has the right to do whatever the heck she pleases with her body (in this party senario) without some man feeling that it gives him the right to touch her. Are you allowed to grope strippers? Take pictures? NO! And if you did, there would surely be a bouncer on you ASAP. Why should it be any different in any other situation, because there is no bouncer?