2009.11.04
The big election post-mortem: put your 2 cents here!
Bob McDonnell (left) and state Sen. Creigh Deeds.
1. Did Bob McDonnell win, or did Creigh Deeds lose? Answer that question and give us the best analysis you can that supports your answer.
2. Look ahead a year or so and tell us what you believe is in store for Virginia now that Ken Cappuccino is Virginia attorney general.
3. Does anyone give a you-know-what about the winner of the lieutenant governor's race? Does it matter at all? Tell us why.
Now we can blame all the problems of the Commonwealth on the Republicans.
Cool!
Comment by Art Hill — November 4, 2009 @ 3:05 am
@ #3,
What race?
Comment by Blue John — November 4, 2009 @ 7:37 am
So who got the book?
Comment by Kristen — November 4, 2009 @ 7:47 am
Question 1: I don't know that it makes a difference how you phrase it unless you're into semantic fist fights.
Question 2: As part of the Republican effort to avoid new and/or higher taxes, every household in Virginia will now receive a pound of coffee twice a month. Everyone will need to drink it as an appetite suppressant, since unemployment benefits will continue to run out and nobody will be able to buy food.
Question 3: Probably not, to both questions.
Comment by Liz — November 4, 2009 @ 8:22 am
1. Deeds ran an awful campaign and McDonnell did not. McDonnell is the wrong guy for the job, but Deeds showed he wasn't ready to play with the big boys and got his rear handed to him last night. Nice guy, but not ready for the big leagues at all.
2. I suspect that we'll see an advancement of 700-Club agenda items on all fronts. Espresso's and Latte's will be the only thing we can buy on Sunday's before you know it, because it pays homage to the AG. I'm sure he owns stock in one of the grinders, so he'll be getting kickbacks for that.
3. Is there a more irrelevant position in the state government? After the election, does this person actually do anything noticable, meaningful, or applicable to state affairs? Ok well, maybe when McD starts his 2012 presidential campaign, the LtG will be stepping into big boy shoes as a placeholder, but largely, it doesn't matter.
Comment by Other John — November 4, 2009 @ 8:40 am
If Creigh Deeds has been the Republican, he would have won.
Comment by Henry — November 4, 2009 @ 8:49 am
I think McDonnell did "win" but he won with only 40% of voters bothering to vote and 20% of Virginian's support so his mandate only looks good on some graphics. He won by NOT being what he actually is and that will, in the end I think, prove problematic. Virginia is more Conservative than the nation (don't I know it!) but McDonnell is more Conservative than that. He also has those same huge problems Virginia had yesterday staring him in the face and us clamoring for solutions so his true proclivities will shine through IMO. Luckily for Virginia, as always, the Governor is still one term, and the GA still actually runs the state. Of course, I thought Gilmore could not be all that bad either a few years back... Virginia did what we have done since 1977, it is not nearly the big deal that the Conservatives are wanting it to be, but hey, good luck with your "win". I will give McDonnell every ounce of respect, kindness and patience that Conservatives have given President Obama.
The AG office will become more political than ever before because Ken doll wants more than this tin ring. Mark my words on that!
Lt. Governor is a purely coattails post and has no real bearing or clout except to build the party (which should not be discounted), name recognition for the brass ring grab next go round and the obvious.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 4, 2009 @ 9:02 am
I am sure that the Republican sweep of the of our State House is giving you and your "Brady Bunch" news organization a bad case of morning hangover.
Tim Kaine has been more interested in getting out the vote for the Dems instead of watching over the Commonwealth. He threw Creigh Deeds under the bus in tyring to help save New Jersey for the national ticket. Now maybe he will be thrown out as head of the DNC.
Virginia needs to revive its economy. The Commonwealth needs to create manufacturing jobs. We need good paying jobs (not service jobs) that include good benifits for the employees. If that can happen the reaming problems (education, health care and transportation) will fall in line.
As for your question did Deeds loose or McDonnell win, Deeds left his modrate roots for the left and McDonnell offered a hand to Deeds former modrate base. Rest assured that our new AG will do a great job.
Comment by al milton — November 4, 2009 @ 9:10 am
Good point Henry, thing is Creigh Deeds is more Republican than any Democrat I have ever known. What he is not, is a cut throat, self-aggrandizing, glad handing, sell his soul, sell out Virginia politician and without at least some of those "qualities" you are not going to get the big chair in Virginia. We are sad on many levels if you can look at the big picture. Which is Virginia's real problem, we cannot.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 4, 2009 @ 9:10 am
ha!ha!ha!:)
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Comment by Joe — November 4, 2009 @ 9:26 am
Bob McDonnell won this race thanks in large part to the fact that it wasn't run in last year's election cycle. Talk about two very different experiences at the polls! Last year I stood in line for over two hours to cast my vote for John McCain; this year, my wife and I were the only voters present at the time and we were in and out in less than five minutes. In my opinion, Obama whipped up a frenzy of what has proven to be uninformed, unengaged, and inactive voters in 2008. These folks cast a vote not based on their value system, but to be a part of history. McDonnell's campaign resonated with the people of the commonwealth who are plugged-in and knowledgeable about the issues we are facing. Who would you rather have giving you your "political mandate"?
Comment by Joey — November 4, 2009 @ 9:31 am
al milton's freudian slip says it all. for the next four years we will all suffer from a reaming problem, especially in education, health care, and transportation. voter turnout in 2008 was almost 70%. yesterday it
was under 50%. you can read between those lines. good luck to mcdonnell
in his "reaming " process.
Comment by dave — November 4, 2009 @ 9:38 am
I'll take the "Brady Bunch" over "The Family" any day of the week!
Tim Kaine, who has been vilified in Virginia did exactly the right amount of work for Deeds. Deeds was not willing to pretend to be something he is not and McDonnell had no qualms about doing so. If McDonnell had the guts to actually run as the Conservative "The Family" knows him to be, Deeds would have had an honest fight at least.
People do not see the agenda because they do not want to see the agenda. Just as those who refer to "Atlas Shrugged" and such writings to point to the "new America" they want to bring forth, have fooled people (some even well meaning in their support) into believing this is all about the "bootstraps" while in reality it is all about the "jackboots". One day we will wake up again, but sadly for us, it takes a Palin candidacy on the national stage and who wants that drama again. People need to be reading and educating themselves because despite what the Conservatives scream, the MSM is NOT reporting on the true agenda they have for this country nor the way they intend to stage this coup. For people who claim not to want another revolution, they are damn sure heading in that direction. The growing gap between the rich and poor, the powerful and the helpless will continue to grow and the bones thrown at the "social advances" will deter enough of us for the job to be completed. When we wake up in "their America" the chains will be so secure we will never again escape.
Do you not think that the deteriorating schools, infrastructure and military are a problem? Do you not see the struggle of the shrinking middle class and the ever growing poverty numbers? Do you not see the living wage jobs leaving and the "service sector" jobs growing? They have many convinced they are doing God's work and that their methods will be the answer. Obama was a fluke, if McCain had not picked Palin, this book would already be written. Today Virginia, tomorrow the world and by all that is Holy, they mean it. I hope the 60% of Virginia voters who stayed home are proud of what they have unleashed. Meet the new boss!
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 4, 2009 @ 9:39 am
Milton
Perhaps waiting until the "reaming problems...fall into line" will not be soon enough to 'benifit' you.
MODERATE, fss. You do know that the words underlined in red are spelled incorrectly right? Spell check, you are doing it wrong.
McDonnell tried to portray himself as a moderate and Deeds ran left of center, yes. The problem is that McDonnell's extended 'hand' is a lie. He is not moderate and it will be revealed by his turn in the next few months. He will push the agenda of the Falwellian Reich like he was taught in his 'college'.
The truth of his feelings, as shown by his thesis and his voting record since, will reveal his campaign for the lie it was and his indenture to the right.
But this may be a wake up call for the Republicans. When they run moderate they win (VA). When they fracture and act like asshats they lose (NY23). Maybe they will burn Palin for the moron she is and push her out of the realm of those with influence on the party itself.
Comment by VVarlock — November 4, 2009 @ 9:42 am
Sandi,
Palin for the GOP nomination in '12!
Comment by Dan Casey — November 4, 2009 @ 9:53 am
As a former Virginian now living in a midwestern "manufacturing" state, Milton needs to be careful what he asks for. Virginia needs to take advantage of the three or four research universities it has to tie the research being done on those campuses to commerce as North Carolina has with Research Triangle Park and the research parks in Charlotte, and between Greensboro & Winston-Salem. It needs to promote itself as a tourism destination. It needs to invest in transportation infrastructure to enable its citizens and commerce to move more quickly. Do I believe the governor elect will do those things? Not really. He and his republican relatives don't have the courage to develop the revenue sources required to accomplish those things. In the meantime watch your K12 schools as well as cities and towns across Virginia decline to the point that no company wants to invest in Virginia.
In my midwestern state the unemployment rate hovers around 15% because our leaders believed it needed to attract and solicit manufacturing jobs that have now moved to Mexico, Asia and other parts of the world. The last time I checked Virginia's unemployment rate was around 6%. As I said at the beginning, be careful what you ask for.
Comment by Ron — November 4, 2009 @ 10:24 am
I don't get what "reaming problems" means, and I'm usually pretty good at decoding typos.
McDonnell is definitely Candidate Most Likely to Stick Women in a Burkha. I'm fascinated to see how things go in the next 4 years.
Comment by Kristen — November 4, 2009 @ 10:42 am
Kristen
Judging by the Falwellian spelling errors, this Al Milton is a Y.E.C.
Also, since I speak YEC, I can say with a degree of confidence that he meant remaining.
Comment by VVarlock — November 4, 2009 @ 11:07 am
For those of you who are new here, Y.E.C is the term VVarlock uses to refer to "young earth creationists."
Comment by Dan Casey — November 4, 2009 @ 11:23 am
I heard one of those YECs on NPR last weekend....he actually believed the earth was maybe 6000 years old, and had scientific "proof" of it.
In counterpoint to this guy was a scientist from Notre Dame, a religious school obviously, who made an excellent and you'd think self-evident point. His opinion was that the Bible is there to help us with philosophical and moral dilemmas, not scientific ones, and should be used as such.
Comment by Kristen — November 4, 2009 @ 11:35 am
The whining, and crying is music to my ears. Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Reid are exactly what the Republican party needs. It tooka a Carter to get a Reagan, and this bunch may be even dumber than Carter. Thanks Dems!
Comment by WRWC — November 4, 2009 @ 12:34 pm
2 things Obama needs to do to avoid 2010 defeat and possiblly being a 1 term pres..
Adopt the Republican Healthcare plan..and abandon the present cap and trade idea..If he doesnt do those 2 things and continues the socialist agenda..The Dems will be out fast
The numbers in the Va election and the fact that the Dems lost the super blue New Jersey..should be a wakeup call..If they want to stay in power thell have to do like Clinton did..move to the cemter
Comment by Tony — November 4, 2009 @ 12:42 pm
Actually, NJ had Christie Todd Whitman for years...its governor's mansion goes back and forth.
"Republican Health Plan" is an oxymoron. Obama should do what he was elected to do. Public health option, period. Sticking to the occasional principle isn't the worst thing in the world.
Comment by Kristen — November 4, 2009 @ 1:00 pm
Deeds never did solidify the traditional Democratic powerbase. He ran such an inept campaign, I questioned his ability to run the state as governor. However, McDonnell's proposed policies (as well as his misogynistic proclivities) scare me to death. Because our state continues to field candidates of such poor quality, Virginia will once again find itself mired in mediocrity. The only consolation we have is the fact that we no longer have to endure the incessant barrage of negative campaign ads. Sic Semper Mediocris!
Comment by Morris Fleischer — November 4, 2009 @ 1:07 pm
That "whining and crying" music should be very familiar by now. We have had to listen to it since last November! Get used to it. We always return favors.
Tony, you must be sipping the kool-aid. The Dems are NOT socialists. Period. Maybe this crisis could have been handled with tax breaks and budget cuts but the truth is McCain would not have wanted beggars in the streets and riots and looting in the dark either. Did you see Katrina? America is NOT going to take well to a depression, chum. Obama is at WORST a pragmatic centrist with a good social conscience (which is a good thing IMO) and buying the label and insults hurled from the right is hogwash to be ashamed of. NONE of the Dems on the Virginia ballot are Liberals, NONE. This was Virginia reverting back to Virginia. Obama may well take the hit for the economic crash he inherited and the cure feels bad to those who gave in to the fear and hate the government, but get a grip man. Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders are the Liberals and Socialists among us and even they are hardly scary. This is a mountain made out of Fixed News molehills and that the sheeple will fall for it is a frightening thing for America. You know, the one that pretends, E pluribus unum?
If this is a bell weather for the Dems, it is one built on lies, distortions, abuse of people's fear and gullibility that should make no one proud of it. Losing is preferable to selling out at any rate. In a fair fight, we win. If Obama can turn the economy around by 2010 and 2012 the far right jackals will have to go back to the caves and the moderates can get on with rebuilding America. If the far right jackals raise enough fear and spread enough lies, they may win for a while, but America did not enjoy the "trickle down" economy the last time around and m
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 4, 2009 @ 1:15 pm
...my guess is they will not like the redeux either.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 4, 2009 @ 1:16 pm
Hello Morris, haven't seen you here in a while. Good to hear from you!
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 4, 2009 @ 1:20 pm
Morris, you wrote, " Virginia will once again find itself mired in mediocrity." Which states are not mediocre in your opinion? California, N.Y., Il.? All of the high tax, broke states that people are running away from?
This whining is great, I took a day off from work to enjoy it! Of course I doubt any of you Dems had to take a day off work to whine!
Comment by VRWC — November 4, 2009 @ 1:27 pm
The Dem Healthcare plan on the senate side may be in the early stages of its death nell..Reid has said it wont get to the floor this year...early next year is getting mighty close to the 2010 election...with the sting of yesterdays Republican demolishing of the Dems ..and I mean basically down the line..those up for reelection may decide and wisely so to take a less controversial path..
The Republicans actually do have a plan..much less invasive..without "mandates"..If Obamas smart hell accept a similar bill to this..declare victory and move on..
Comment by Tony — November 4, 2009 @ 1:30 pm
Any discussion of last night’s events is incomplete without referencing the old Dominion’s voting trend for the previous 9 gubernatorial election cycles. Since 1977, Virginia has elected as Governor the candidate from the opposing party of the resident of the White House. Using this logic, Deeds had an 11.1% chance of winning yesterday. How else could the Republicans explain Jim Gilmore? How else could the Democrats explain Douglas Wilder?
I think it’s a little premature for Virginia Republicans to start claiming majority status. When you factor in Virginias status as the state that Gave Obama the winning electoral votes to defeat McCain, Warner and Webb as the two Virginian Senators and the majority of the states voters now residing in NOVA, it’s hard to make the case for continued Republican success like we saw last night. This state is hardly red or blue at the moment.
McDonnell ran a great campaign and he’s to be commended for that. Now the heavy lifting begins. Everyone agrees that Virginia must improve our transportation infrastructure but no one can agree how to pay for it. Careful analysis of McDonnell’s transportation plan shows it to be deeply flawed. Virginia is in the midst of a fiscal crisis that is going to be a challenge to address without rising taxes or huge budget cuts.
Comment by Steve Cadora — November 4, 2009 @ 1:37 pm
"I will give McDonnell every ounce of respect, kindness and patience that Conservatives have given President Obama."
This would seem to be an endless cycle because it looks like Obama is getting about 1/5th of the disrespect the liberals showed Bush.
The best part of this is watching the libs whine about how Republicans should somehow consider this less of a victory because of low voter turnout. You seem to be saying that the results aren't truly representative of the people and that, had the turnout been higher, there would have been a different result. So in effect, your argument is the Republicans should feel bad because the Democrats were too lazy or disinterested to actually be bothered with voting? And that's your rallying cry? What a remarkable commentary on civic duty.
Comment by Another Chris — November 4, 2009 @ 1:42 pm
I am glad 60% of the voters stayed home. That means that the 40% that take the time to be informed and really give a d@#! got thier voices heard and did not have their vote cancelled out by what is for the most part a mis-informed mob that was so brilliantly stirred up by the Obama campaign. I remember standing in line at the polling place (westside elementary school, Roanoke)during the Presidential election and hearing all the jubilation over Obama's pending victory. While I was in line (about 45 minutes) I asked probably 20 to 25 people to name the vice president, the secretary of state, and the speaker of the house. Not one of those individuals could answer the question. NOW if you do not care enough to know the answer to this question, then you certaintly are not informed enough to make an intelligent decision as to who the next "leader of the free world" is going to be. "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be." Thomas Jefferson
Sandi - your comment -
"Deeds was not willing to pretend to be something he is not and McDonnell had no qualms about doing so. If McDonnell had the guts to actually run as the Conservative "The Family" knows him to be, Deeds would have had an honest fight at least".
Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. The liberals do not dare show their true colors in any election.
""The growing gap between the rich and poor, the powerful and the helpless will continue to grow and the bones thrown at the "social advances" will deter enough of us for the job to be completed. When we wake up in "their America" the chains will be so secure we will never again escape."" WHAT?
I thought welfare was supposed to "even things out" and fix this. 50 years later, untold millions of dollars spent, and the problem is getting worse? O my, another successful liberal policy.
Comment by Will — November 4, 2009 @ 2:25 pm
Will,
Interesting comment. Do you believe the nation should institute some kind of political literacy test as a part of the voter registration process?
Comment by Dan Casey — November 4, 2009 @ 2:27 pm
"This whining is great, I took a day off from work to enjoy it! Of course I doubt any of you Dems had to take a day off work to whine!"
Some jokes write themselves.
Comment by Kristen — November 4, 2009 @ 2:28 pm
Yes, sorry for the use of unexplained terminology. Y.E.C.(YEC) is Young Earth Creationist, so is Creo-tard. While ID-iot is a creationist using the Discovery Institute's false veneer of science in a feeble attempt to masquerade their bible creation myth as legitimate.
Hope that clears it up for the WingNutDaily crowd that has jumped into the fray recently.
Kristen
YEC's use the 'less than 10,000 years old' bit to make it seem more reasonable.
The math they use is Bishop Ussher's, an Anglican bishop (or at least based upon his and Lightfoot's calculations) who computed the age of the Earth based mostly upon the bible. His date for creation was Saturday October 22, 1800 hours in 4004 BC (since the Jewish system days start on what we consider the previous day at about 6PM).
So according to that dating system the Earth is now @ 6013 years 12 days 14 hours old (GMT).
Despite my earlier remarks, and its own sordid history; the Catholic Church has become a force for religious moderation, at least in regard to the field of science. My Catholic friends get much less hell from me for their superstition than the YEC's I come across because at least the Catholics know that the Theory of Evolution is fact, too bad they had to wait 'til the pope told them it was before they believed it, but at least it is positive movement.
Comment by VVarlock — November 4, 2009 @ 2:37 pm
Dan 33
The problem with a 'political literacy test' is that so many on the right would fail since they pretty much only watch Faux and almost all of them think the yellow journalism there is fact based.
Comment by VVarlock — November 4, 2009 @ 2:39 pm
"Interesting comment. Do you believe the nation should institute some kind of political literacy test as a part of the voter registration process?"
If this would become law, there would be no Republican Party.
Comment by Blue John — November 4, 2009 @ 3:05 pm
VRWC, believe me when I say that I'd rather live in Virginia than any other state in America. When I say that VA is "mired in mediocrity" (ahhh...takes me back to the days of Spiro T. Agnew!) my point is that a state such as ours...with our resources, the quality of our institutions of higher learning, our rich history and heritage...ought to offer better candidates than the two options we had in this year's gubernatorial (more like "goober-natorial")race. It is because of who we are as a state, that I think we could do so much better. Simply put, it seems that, more often than not, we're reduced to choosing between the "lesser of evils." It's been a while since I have been excited about a candidate...it would be so refreshing to be able to actually vote "for" a candidate, rather than be reduced to the proverbial "coin flip" in the voting both. Because I believe in the democratic process and because I am a voting citizen of the Commonwealth, I will attempt to be supportive and respectful of whomever is elected.
Comment by Morris Fleischer — November 4, 2009 @ 3:05 pm
Sandi......Obama is a Centrist.LMAO..Talk about sippin the Koolaid..and your must be laced with the LSD25 from an earlier blog,,you are truly trippin!
Comment by Tony — November 4, 2009 @ 3:19 pm
Or could it be that folks dislike strangers asking questions at the voting place? You only discredit your own self when you insist that Deeds is, was or ever will be a Liberal.
Speaking of "understanding" and "intelligence" you seem to be sorely lacking when it comes to welfare. If anyone presented it as supposing to "even things out" and "fix" being poor, I missed that presentation. It is a success in that it keeps people from starving or being homeless but it is not designed not was it planned to "even things out".
You can feel as good about this election as you like. The numbers are still the numbers. I do not know if most Virginians thought it did not matter or they did not care, but they will.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 4, 2009 @ 3:25 pm
well,,the good ole Obama haters got a win after all,,good for them! They was salty after the presidential election and boy they wasnt about to lose again in Virginia!! Well in all fairness I hope the Republicans do more than think about their own kind; rich, wealthy, conservative, big business, etc......you know the routine. And of course "Richmond" will forget about Roanoke and the rest SW Virginia!
Comment by jason morgan — November 4, 2009 @ 3:38 pm
You have to take a test to drive a car, or boat as well as get your CCW. Why not Dan? Voting while uninformed is just as dangerous to me. I'm all for it. You can add to the list having children as well!
Comment by Walker — November 4, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
I honestly do not know what the answer is Dan. I do know that public elections seem to be increasingly decided by catch phrases and sound bites. And I do believe that mass voter registration programs have only made the matter worse. I know of one lady who could not answer the question "name the vice president, the secretary of state, and the speaker of the house", who was on the phone recruiting voters for Obama.
I think an ignorant (not stupid, just lacking knowledge) electorate is a grave danger to any free nation.
Another interesting experiment I did over the course of the last presidential election was to ask people why they were voting for their particular candidate. Most McCain supporters stated national security, lower taxes, less government,etc. Number one answer among Obama supporters was "I hate Bush". Number two was "we need change" but when asked what kind of change was needed, they were at a loss.
Now i am not saying this represents the majority of Obama supporters, but I asked a lot of people (at least 100) and these are the answers I received.
Comment by Will — November 4, 2009 @ 4:57 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8
I post only to illustrate Will's point. I have no affinity to this guy or this documentary so arguments calling it "hogwash I should be ashamed of", etc. will be wasted. There is no doubt this is selective reporting to make a point - but there is a point to make regarding the media and uninformed voters here more-so than in any other election in America to date.
I have not watched the full documentary. Again, just illustrating Will's point. I'd like to see it because it does crack me up at times - scares the hell out of me at others...
Comment by Roland Deschain — November 4, 2009 @ 5:14 pm
Roland, you are aware that literacy tests, along with poll taxes, were the prime devices that segregationists used for generations to keep blacks out of political office, right?
They are unDemocratic as you can get, and racist to boot, and subject to all kinds of abuse. And don't for one minute imagine that I could not go out with a camera and round up scores of blithering idiots who voted for McCain/Palin. I could.
All the exit polls I heard of in 2008 showed that the higher the education level, the MORE likely a voter was likely to cast his/her ballot for Obama. You know that's true.
In that respect, a test might be more likely to screen out conservative voters.
Tantilizing thought! (But I'm still against'em)
Comment by Dan Casey — November 4, 2009 @ 5:38 pm
I think it is shameful that Americans are so ignorance in general and about their government in specific.
I think I could get very similar results from both sides of the aisle. If I went to a Palin rally I bet virtually none of them could name their representative or their positions on the key issues either.
Faux Viewers would probably have a better score, as would MSNBC and CNN viewers, but by that standard regular watchers of the Daily Show would probably fare better than the general public too.
The anti-intellectual feeling in this country is a disgusting trend and it effects a huge segment of the electorate. I do not think that a political literacy test is constitutional, but perhaps it is not the worst idea ever. It would lead to a better informed and educated electorate, but it would also actually be the taxation without representation that so many have so often cried out against.
It would put us more into a Jeffersonian Epistemocracy which would lead to an elitist electorate and thus yet another class for a country with enough 'tribes' already.
Comment by VVarlock — November 4, 2009 @ 5:41 pm
I do think their are certain situations where voting should be limited.like in property tax issues.If you dont own property..shouldnt be allowed to vote on raising property taxes..
Comment by Tony — November 4, 2009 @ 5:43 pm
Will-
"I honestly do not know what the answer is Dan. I do know that public elections seem to be increasingly decided by catch phrases and sound bites."
This isn't new though. In the earliest days of our country, candidates would ply voters with food and drink, and campaigns were actually dirtier than they are now. The voter of today has more information available to them than ever before, there is no practical way to make sure they use it.
"Another interesting experiment I did over the course of the last presidential election was to ask people why they were voting for their particular candidate. Most McCain supporters stated national security, lower taxes, less government,etc. Number one answer among Obama supporters was "I hate Bush". Number two was "we need change" but when asked what kind of change was needed, they were at a loss.
Now i am not saying this represents the majority of Obama supporters, but I asked a lot of people (at least 100) and these are the answers I received."
You asking 100 people that question does not represent an experiment. It's a larger than normal anecdote. This, report on the other hand, is based on a real survey: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7709852.stm
It showed that the electorate's biggest concern was not hating Bush, but the economy (62%) and that those who were most worried about the economy voted overwhelmingly for Obama.
According to this real survey http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/national-exit-polls.html, both college graduates and those with post grad degrees went for Obama (the latter by a huge margin). The country's best educated people voted for Obama.
So, though you tried to soft peddle it, you can go ahead and drop the obvious, "Obama got elected because people are stupid," hypothesis. Well, I'll say that electing Obama made them no more or less stupid than electing any other candidate. Thoughtful, intelligent people could make rational cases for voting for McCain or Obama.
Comment by Jason — November 4, 2009 @ 5:55 pm
Come on, Dan!
Why in the world in this day of required (and free!) education is a test racist and un-Democratic? Let's be realistic- if you can't remember, don't know, whatever...the name of the current President, VP, Speaker, etc., do you really want that person's opinion on who should be the leader of the free world?!
And I'm still laughing over the exit polls you mentioned. The most highly educated people I know- those with advanced degrees of all kinds- voted almost without exception for McCain. The few with advanced degrees who didn't were my 'academic' friends- teachers and professors... the ones with the magical tenure who couldn't lose their jobs.
Comment by Bring on the Test! — November 4, 2009 @ 6:26 pm
BOTT,
Seriously, do you believe the "folks you know" trumps scientific polls?
Comment by Dan Casey — November 4, 2009 @ 6:29 pm
I think the answer is simple. The Repulicans wanted it more. Their people were at the polls, making their preference known. Democrats just didn't show up.
Comment by Lynda K — November 4, 2009 @ 6:29 pm
Dan:
I was going to re-write portions of my post in quotations because it seems you did not read past the link. Instead, I'll just ask you to read it again.
Yes, I am aware of the past use of literacy testing and poll taxes. Thanks for asking. Further, the documentary is a commentary on the media - not against the right of any person or group to vote.
No doubt you could find ignorant McCain voters - if you read carefully, you'll see I said in my intro of the clip that it is selective reporting - but thanks for restating that again.
So, one more time for everybody: I only posted that clip to further illustrate Will's point.
Comment by Roland Deschain — November 4, 2009 @ 6:32 pm
Jason,
Your post (48) in no way counters Will's argument that an inordinate amount of ignorant people voted for Obama.
"The country's best educated people voted for Obama" - Great news - what does that say about the uneducated? Nothing.
Here's a question: Did the exit poll have "Bush Sucks" as a choice? No? So your exit poll does not counter his argument either. In fact, if I were to make a personal assumption, I would assume that a fair portion of those concerned with the economy and voting for Obama were blaming Bush for the economic problems.
Your first link actually probably makes his point more than it refutes it. It says that Obama gained the edge by getting young people, African Americans, and new voters. A portion of young people vote with emotion and celebrity status - not necessarily the issues. A portion of African Americans voted race. A portion of new voters came out to the polls because they were begged to by the Obama campaign - informed or not (I am guessing closer to not) (and yes I know that every candidate does it...). The last paragraph of this little gem says that Obama's Ace in the Hole so to speak was enthusiam. Hmmmmm...last I checked, an objective consideration of the issues by a responsible voter would not be characterized as enthusiam.
Please note above that I wrote "a portion" rather than "many", "most", or "a majority of". I do not have real figures. I do know that "a portion" is at least accurate. It is probably an understatement.
So, you are correct that saying that not every Obama voter was ignorant. You have not, however, furthered your argument that "Obama got elected because people are stupid" is a bad stance.
Comment by Roland Deschain — November 4, 2009 @ 6:47 pm
I am all for this "test", bring it on! I have spent over 30 years studying this and I can say without a shadow of doubt in my mind that the dumbest, least informed people on the planet are the rank and file sheep that vote against their own economic interests to vote for Republicans "who believe in God". I have no fear that the few careless and ignorant Liberal votes we will lose will even BEGIN to compare with the millions of votes that the Conservatives will lose. Go for it and count me in!
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 4, 2009 @ 7:01 pm
"Interesting comment. Do you believe the nation should institute some kind of political literacy test as a part of the voter registration process?"
"If this would become law, there would be no Republican Party."
- Will
And if they ever pass law requiring ID be shown at the polls or that the voter actually be a living, non-fictional person, the Democratic party will lose about 1/3 of its registered voters. What will ACORN do?
Comment by Another Chris — November 4, 2009 @ 7:09 pm
Another Chris,
Seriously, are you saying there are no such laws? We've got them here in Virginia! We had them last year, too, when the Dems romped (just in case you'd forgotten).
Comment by Dan Casey — November 4, 2009 @ 7:25 pm
Obama did not get elected because people are stupid. That is a fact and it is frankly irrefutable. If the people who voted in 2008 really were stupid, McCain/Palin would have won, hands down, just like Bush/Cheney did. I think that the more easily accepted truth is that while issue (race, economy, history, anger, war) voters certainly played a role, they simply and finally outnumbered the stupid voters, just like they did when Clinton won.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 4, 2009 @ 7:41 pm
What's with the Capuccino name? Is that another insult lobbed at an Italian...siding with the NRA now Dan?
Comment by RoanokeRnR — November 4, 2009 @ 8:03 pm
"The country's best educated people voted for Obama" - Great news - what does that say about the uneducated? Nothing."
If you are making the generalized statement that a person won an election because the population is dumb/stupid, yet that candidate grabbed a disproportionate amount of highly educated people, it would imply that there were reasons for non dumb/stupid people to vote for him. Both candidates had smart and dumb people voting for them.
"Here's a question: Did the exit poll have "Bush Sucks" as a choice? No? So your exit poll does not counter his argument either."
I have no idea. If Will can provide us with his protocols, data sets, etc., it might shed some light on things. But you go ahead taking "guy on internet's 100 person poll" seriously.
"A portion of young people vote with emotion and celebrity status - not necessarily the issues."
A portion of all people vote with emotion and celebrity status - not necessarily the issues. Irrelevant argument unless you can break it down precisely, which you can't.
"A portion of African Americans voted race."
What portion? A portion of white McCain voters voted race. Irrelevant argument.
"A portion of new voters came out to the polls because they were begged to by the Obama campaign"
Citation?
"informed or not"
Citation?
"(I am guessing closer to not)"
Evidence to back your guess?
"(and yes I know that every candidate does it...)."
Then why bother with the argument?
"The last paragraph of this little gem says that Obama's Ace in the Hole so to speak was enthusiam. Hmmmmm...last I checked, an objective consideration of the issues by a responsible voter would not be characterized as enthusiam."
An objective consideration of the issues might be the or one of the reasons that enthusiasm is generated.
"Please note above that I wrote "a portion" rather than "many", "most", or "a majority of". I do not have real figures."
That you've made abundantly clear.
"I do know that "a portion" is at least accurate."
Yes. As long as the number is >1, you are safe. Brave stuff.
"So, you are correct that saying that not every Obama voter was ignorant. You have not, however, furthered your argument that "Obama got elected because people are stupid" is a bad stance."
I'll repeat the last two lines of my post: Well, I'll say that electing Obama made them no more or less stupid than electing any other candidate. Thoughtful, intelligent people could make rational cases for voting for McCain or Obama.
Comment by Jason — November 4, 2009 @ 8:22 pm
Will is free to say that an "inordinate amount of ignorant people voted for Obama". In fact, Will is free to say whatever he wants. Not that it matters. Quickly scanning a Palin "rally", I'd amend that to "An inordinate amount of people who walk upright voted for Obama". But I digress.
I'd more than welcome a test such as being discussed. Considering RWers take great pride in A) not reading, B) not traveling, C) having no facility with any language other than English (and even then, somewhat sketchy),D) not engaging in any other leisure actitivites other than those as "populist" as beer drinking and race watching - I'd very likely be satisfied with the resulting electorate.
Comment by Kristen — November 5, 2009 @ 8:06 am
Jason,
I do not have a position in this debate - simply a comment on your argument. When I see faulty logic and obviously shifty arguments used to oppose Will, I will call you out on them. You can either: 1. reinforce your stance (I happen to agree with YOU and not HIM in this case) with a better argument OR 2. Parse out what I said, comment annoyingly on every line, totally avoid furthering your stance, and pick a fight where there is no disagreement OR 3. Ignore me - Your choice. From past experience, I assume you will pick number 2 so I have left the proper space below so you don't have to copy/paste so many times...
YOUR COMMENT HERE:
You have come out strongly against Will and I am pointing out that you have not actually countered his position - only changed the subject so that your ridiculous internet links would work.
YOUR COMMENT HERE:
If you don't know the choices listed in the exit poll, re-read your link - they are listed in the graph. No, "I hate Bush" was not a choice.
YOUR COMMENT HERE:
I wonder why you did not attack Sandi for saying that "I have spent over 30 years studying this and I can say without a shadow of doubt in my mind that the dumbest, least informed people on the planet are the rank and file sheep that vote against their own economic interests to vote for Republicans "who believe in God"." Hers is a much stronger (and malicious) assertion - possibly since you agree with her you let this one slide?
YOUR COMMENT HERE:
Your criticism of my use of "a portion" above is laughable. That is THE only responsible way to state what I said. You decide for yourself what the portions are. You make your guess, Will will make his. If there were citations or evidence to be had, my friend, I'd have included them. Since there are not, you'll have to live with "a portion". It's not about being brave. It's about being accurate and responsible - and not typing from pure, unbridled emotion.
YOUR COMMENT HERE:
The last two sentences of your post STILL do nothing to counter Will's argument - no matter how many times you type them.
YOUR COMMENT HERE:
Again, I agree with your view of this but you typically don't bring garbage arguments here. A lot of people do - and I ignore their faulty logic and "switcheroo" arguments without comment. Being new here, I was under the understanding that you held more respect in this group for having well thought out positions. I still believe this to be the case but you are free to prove me wrong...
YOUR COMMENT HERE:
Would it be possible, if you wish to continue debating with me on an issue upon which we agree but upon which I called your obvious argumentative foul (and now you are upset about it), for you to consider the full context of these statements are respond like an adult - rather than the interrupting, out-of-context style that you use so often. If not, :
YOUR COMMENTS HERE:
Comment by Roland Deschain — November 5, 2009 @ 9:17 am
Roland-
"Hers is a much stronger (and malicious) assertion - possibly since you agree with her you let this one slide?"
Or it could be that her post came after his and I hadn't read it. My point of view also would have put me in disagreement with her, so you're wrong anyway. Good guess though.
"Would it be possible, if you wish to continue debating with me on an issue upon which we agree but upon which I called your obvious argumentative foul (and now you are upset about it), for you to consider the full context of these statements are respond like an adult - rather than the interrupting, out-of-context style that you use so often. If not,"
I'm not the least bit upset. What you call interrupting and out of context style I call answering specific arguments. You made specific assertions that you couldn't back up and I pointed them out. Your response is to hand wave. Even if we grant that the request for citations was snarkiness on my part, that still leaves the logically empty arguments that were put up and taken down (by my count, four).
Comment by Jason — November 5, 2009 @ 10:04 am
Kristen - "I'd more than welcome a test such as being discussed. Considering RWers take great pride in A) not reading, B) not traveling, C) having no facility with any language other than English (and even then, somewhat sketchy),D) not engaging in any other leisure actitivites other than those as "populist" as beer drinking and race watching - I'd very likely be satisfied with the resulting electorate".
now we see the true colors of racism, predjudice and stereotyping which the liberals have always been champions of
Sandi - "Speaking of "understanding" and "intelligence" you seem to be sorely lacking when it comes to welfare. If anyone presented it as supposing to "even things out" and "fix" being poor, I missed that presentation. It is a success in that it keeps people from starving or being homeless but it is not designed not was it planned to "even things out".
No, the real reason for welfare was to create an electorate that is totally dependent on government, at which it has been very successful. Starving and homeless are one thing, having a flat screen in your apartment from rent-a-center and your kids riding around on $1100.00 scooters while the taxpayers support you is another. Want to argue the point? Meet me at any housing project in the city of Roanoke and we will do a door to door survey. I've been there, I know. The sad thing is, the system is so corrupt and over bloated that people who are truly homeless and starving can not get the help they need. You can believe me or not, I have lived it and am currently experiencing it to some extent.
As for the reat of you, I never said my "poll" was accurate or scientific or anything else. I was simply reporting my experience. And yes Dan, I believe a person should care enough about the right to vote (and it is a right) to take the time to be informed about the issues enough to make an educated decision. After all, people fought and died and are still fighting and dying to give us that right and it should not be taken lightly.
Comment by Will — November 5, 2009 @ 10:07 am
that's rest not reat. OMG, maybe I just proved Kristen's point. LOL
Comment by Will — November 5, 2009 @ 10:09 am
Will you seem to be under the impression that because we will not agree with your "poll" or premise that we do not think stupid people vote. Of course stupid people vote. Where we disagree vehemently is that those stupid people only vote one way.
You are free to go door to door anywhere you want. The people in the projects and the poorest of the poor whom you assume are so beholden to the massa for their flat screens seldom bother to vote at all. Granted ACORN and other civil rights groups push for their participation and they do make a bigger effort in a Presidential race but on the whole they are not a big chunk of voters that ANYONE aims at or counts on and there again your prejudice assumes the truth you want.
I know beyond doubt that my hard earned tax dollars and charitable donations are being abused by those who scam the system and I wish that instead of always just trying to tear down every program, the Republicans could come to the table honestly to help fix the problems, close the loopholes and make these programs more efficient, more stringent and less vulnerable to abuse. However the knowledge of the abuse will not stop my support for those in need and the programs to exist. No matter how hard you try to frame it that way, the issue is never as black/white cut and dried as you pretend and NO PARTY has clean hands and the high ground.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 5, 2009 @ 10:51 am
Kristen - It's funny when I hear you lefties talk like the elitist obliviots you are. Most conservatives I know travel, read, have college educations, enjoy the arts, spend alot of time outdoors - hunting, fishing, hiking and camping, volunteer in the community. To say that one group of folks favors these luxiries more than another based on their political views shows true ignorance.
Comment by Walker — November 5, 2009 @ 10:59 am
No offense, Walker, but the right seems to trot out their "elitist" bit whenever someone expresses a tendency to eat with a knife and fork. The entire term has lost any of the sense and meaning it used to have.
Comment by Kristen — November 5, 2009 @ 11:41 am
Sandi - I agree no party has clean hands when it comes to this. And no I will not stop my charitable contributions either but as far as supporting the welfare juggernaut the choice is taken away from us. Pay your taxes and support it or go to jail. As far as the programs becoming more efficient, that is not in the government's best interest. By the way, what's this "massa" crap (could that be your prejudice showing). The powers that be in government are not interested in efficiency. The more money that is collected by the government, the more power it has. It really does not matter how the money is spent, just the fact that it passes through the "government's" hands gives it (or them) more control and power and that is what this is really about.
And I believe you just proved the point of my original post on the subject of this last election about the 60% who stayed home.
Me - "I am glad 60% of the voters stayed home. That means that the 40% that take the time to be informed and really give a d@#! got thier voices heard and did not have their vote cancelled out by what is for the most part a mis-informed mob that was so brilliantly stirred up by the Obama campaign".
You - "Granted ACORN and other civil rights groups push for their participation and they do make a bigger effort in a Presidential race but on the whole they are not a big chunk of voters that ANYONE aims at or counts on and there again your prejudice assumes the truth you want".
And finally, (aren't ya'll glad), I never said anyone was stupid, I said they were ignorant. There is a big difference.
Comment by Will — November 5, 2009 @ 12:07 pm
Since when did elite become a bad thing?
I know it does not hold with the entire population, especially those under 40, but it seems a certain segment of the population (coincidentally, those who like Sarah Palin) thinks that being described as a member of the elite or an elitist is bad.
Of course so much of this segment also thinks that the earth is 6013 years old or that carbon dating is used on fossils that it is apparent why they dislike someone 'elite' or educated. It is xenophobia.
Comment by VVarlock — November 5, 2009 @ 12:45 pm
And the fact remains, Jason, that you have not furthered your argument against Will...
And no, I did not make specific assertions. I made purposely vague assertions - open to interpretation. I admitted this when I did it so I have a difficult time seeing how you find value in "taking them down". Perhaps others here had trouble understanding when I said "Please note above that I wrote "a portion" rather than "many", "most", or "a majority of". I do not have real figures." If that is the case, I am sure they are grateful for your deft thrashing of a dead horse.
Apparently, you do not have a better argument against Will's idea above. Therefore, my original point is made and I have nothing left to debate with you.
Until next time...
Comment by Roland Deschain — November 5, 2009 @ 12:50 pm
Will, I realize that a desperate man will grab at straws but come on. I guess you are part of Vast Right Wing Conspiracy's group think on why the government "allows" "the welfare juggernaut" but it is a complete cop out to say that "becoming more efficient, that is not in the government's best interest". This has been a talking point since the days of actual slavery and you seriously think the party that could build a better plan would not get accolades and support? That defies the logic you like so well. If you have the statistics to prove your "grateful voting block" theory, I would love to see them. My own research says the poor do not often vote and many of them vote values instead of welfare checks which means they vote for Republicans so your gripe is missing the mark and the insult is falling on a small and utterly powerless block that is not a block at all. ACORN and other civil rights groups do (because of the history of exclusion) try to register more poor folks to vote, that does not mean they actually do vote and I can find no good numbers on how many people that even is. Just looking at Roanoke, I believe the projects you want to walk through to prove your point are statistically a tiny fraction of the voter rolls in Roanoke. Feel free to offer any proof you actually have to the contrary.
I will grant you that this whole political exercise is about power and those with it like to keep it at any cost. However that is an axiom that washes over both major parties and ALL people in power. Whether the head office of a small hat shop or the boardroom of Exxon, much less the Congress or the White House. Power is how you move your agenda. Absolute power moves that agenda whether the people are with you or not. If 60% of registered voters and 80% of Virginians stayed home, they cannot all be "ignorant". They did not care or they did not see an appreciable difference (which is also cause for alarm).
Frankly, all of our time would be better spent removing the log in our own eye, cleaning up the problems in our own party and making sure we keep our side on OUR side, but obviously there is little allure in that.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 5, 2009 @ 1:00 pm
Will, you seem to have a better grasp of the scope of your observations than Roland does. Enlighten him, please.
Roland, I could sit here and assert that McCain/Palin/McDonnel voters are toothless sheet-wearing inbreds. It doesn't constitute an "argument", far less one requiring much in the way of proof to knock down.
The plural of anecdote isn't evidence, and making a random personal observation and forming an opinion doesn't rank up there with a scientifically admiminstered poll or any other objective information gathering tool.
Will's wrong. There, subject closed.
Comment by Kristen — November 5, 2009 @ 1:10 pm
Does anyone have a ball?
Comment by Jason — November 5, 2009 @ 2:24 pm
Sandi - you seem to have misinterpreted what I said. I did not single out any political party in my comments. They all do it. If I had to choose, I would probably side more with the Libertarians than anyone. I vote republican most of the time because i am deffinately against the socialist agenda of the left. The fact is (or at least the evidence is), efficiency is not a priority of government. If it was, something would have been done about the waste long ago. And I stand behind my statement that the more money that passes through the "government's" hands, the more power it (or they) have. It does not matter how the money is spent. Do you not agree?
And what is this research you site? I am simply reporting my observations. A history of exclusion? What does that mean? Acorn registers the kind of voters they do because most of those voters side with acorn's agenda. To say otherwise is naive. Do you really think that acorn and the rest of those "civil rights" groups do not have an agenda?
And by the way, poor people live in tin roof shacks, not 3 bedroom newly renovated (how many millions of dollars were spent on the Lincoln terrace project) townhomes. Poor people eat whatever they can scrape up. They do not stand in Food Lion with 2 buggys full of steak and cheese and raison nut bran cereal payed for by the taxpayers, all the while sporting new doos from the salon and $100.00 nail jobs from the chinese nail place across the parking lot. Poor people's kids walk where they need to go in non fitting shoes that have holes in the soles.They do not ride around on motorized scooters with air jordans on their feet talking on cell phones. Now I know you are going to call me a racist but this has nothing to do with race. Am I prejudice? you better believe it! I am predudice against people who think that I (because I work hard and pay taxes) owe them a place to live and food on their table. And I am prejudice against a government that for the sake of power redistributes wealth to support all this.
Do you like paying higher taxes? Do you want more governmental control and less freedom? Do you think government is the answer to everything? Name me one, just one government agency that operates efficiently, local, state, or national.
Let's talk effeciency. There are approximately 308 million people in the US. We just spent over 750 BILLION dollars on a "stimulus program". We could have given every person in the country a million dollars and saved a whole lot of money. Not only that, at todays tax rate, the government would claim over half of it right off the bat.
How's that for, and I quote, " A) not reading, B) not traveling, C) having no facility with any language other than English (and even then, somewhat sketchy),D) not engaging in any other leisure actitivites other than those as "populist" as beer drinking and race watching "(thanks Kristen), southern redneck white boy logic? (just kidding)
chow
Comment by Will — November 5, 2009 @ 4:04 pm
Warlock, for some reason the right things that throwing out the word "Elitist" at someone is an insult.
I, on the other hand, am more than happy to consider myself among the "elite".
Comment by Kristen — November 5, 2009 @ 4:12 pm
Hey Wwwiiilll. It's "ciao".
(sorry, my snobby elitist pseudo-intellectual self couldn't resist!)
Comment by Kristen — November 5, 2009 @ 4:13 pm
Will - Well said. You speak for many here!!!!!!
Comment by Walker — November 5, 2009 @ 4:40 pm
Will, I think you nailed it: "southern redneck white boy logic". IF you could leave off the insults and simply stick to the facts and remain civil, we might find some room to agree here. I will concede the point and agree that they all do it.
You disagree with the "socialist agenda of the left" and I know nothing of such an agenda and have been a member of the left for over 30 years. That we are more Liberal, more inclusive, more open to figuring ways for government to help people I will not dispute, but we are not Socialists and do not want any other kind of government in America. I respect and revere the Constitution, those who died for my many blessings and the work ethic that I value.
Government is always willing to forgo efficiency in the effort to help as many people as is possible but the truth is that inefficiency starts with one person not having the work ethic to pull their weight or do the right thing and fraud and profit from it are the biggest problems NOT inefficiency. No party can adequately tackle the waste because they have all made it a political attack instead of a taxpayer initiative. So much money passes through the government hands that welfare alone is hardly the issue or the only problem anyway. Ever heard of those "government contractors" and all the other no bid sweetheart deals for cronies that add so much waste and fraud while raking in the profit AND POLITICAL DONATIONS? THAT is your main culprit. The welfare crowd has no paid lobbyists and the civil rights groups are there for a reason! The people getting rich off Medicare and other welfare programs are not the queens in the projects. The folks that ACORN registers have no more of an agenda than the folks that Liberty University registers and I dare say again that the LU folks are much more likely to actually vote.
I know beyond doubt about poor people, I was raised one and am still working class all the way. I begrudge the welfare cheats and the folks who cheat on taxes, rip off the government, electrocute soldiers and have sweetheart deals equally though.
As to the bailouts, I do not know enough to argue against it but I will grant that since many economists and BOTH administrations were in on it, it must be needed. As to the bailouts of Wall Street and the Corporate Welfare, that is more egregious and disgusting than the nail salon queens you rail against IMO.
I understand that the VA and Medicare both have a lower and ergo more efficient operating system than the private sector and I am sure that the festering wound of inefficiency you are tied up about is a drop in the bucket compared to the God awful Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. So in the real world where you weigh ALL factors, no I am not overly stressed about the Nikes, scooters, big screen or any other accoutrement of living in the projects.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 5, 2009 @ 4:50 pm
Sandi - what is your definition of socialist?
Comment by Will — November 5, 2009 @ 5:20 pm
Kristen
That chow/ciao point you made is so demonstrative of the greater problem. And as said by Walker, he speaks for many... sad.
Comment by VVarlock — November 5, 2009 @ 5:38 pm
Will, my understanding of Socialist would be someone who supports or advocates Socialism. My understanding of Socialism is that it is an economic system in which the people (or “workers”) own and run the “means of production” (the factories and businesses) and that they (the “workers”) allocate or distribute the resources gained from the production back to the workers and that all are paid according to the work they put forth. Since there is no practical application for any such theory IMO, I further understand that to manifest itself in “the government” owns and runs the factories, businesses, organizations and resources and “supposedly” doles the profits and needs out equally. I understand this system to allow for no personal property, business or private property ownership of anything significant.
Given my understanding (and I could be wrong), I do not support Socialism, and I am not a Socialist. While I trust that some jobs are so big the government is the only natural entity capable of running it (Medicare, Social Security, Education, Military, etc.) I would NEVER advocate for the government to become permanently involved in running the areas we consider the “capitalistic”, “free market”, goods/services for a fee society that is America. I do not know the label for it, but I advocate a capitalistic economic system with a strong government (us) oversight and regulation of the practitioners so that the gap between rich and poor is not always growing, people are not always feeling ripped off, basic human needs (medical, dental, vision, food and shelter) have some guarantees, and the “promise” of reward for solid effort is still attainable.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 6, 2009 @ 12:57 pm
Sandi -
"Will, I think you nailed it: "southern redneck white boy logic". IF you could leave off the insults and simply stick to the facts and remain civil, we might find some room to agree here". First of all, when did I insult anyone? Go back and prove it to me. I believe you and Kristen and the all knowing guru who goes by the handle warlock are the ones throwing insults. Government oversight and regulation is what has run most manufacturing jobs out of this country. As for our country not heading toward government control, does it not now own major stake and control of some of the largest companies in the US? It's interesting, the same goverment who through over regulation and over taxation is largly to blame for causing the manufacturers to move their factories overseas, now steps in and "bails them out" and by doing so gains control over another big chunk of our economy. How ironic that the people who used to work in those factories cannot afford to by the product anymore so the government steps in and uses taxpayer money to grab control. It's a very slippery slope.
"Government is always willing to forgo efficiency in the effort to help as many people as is possible"
What a dangerous statement this is. Why do people need govrnment help anyway?
And Kristen and VVarlock - I was trying to make a stupid redneck joke with the chow thing, but I suppose it flew right over your elitest, snobby, prejudiced heads. (oh oh, i threw an insult) By the way Kristen it's thinks not things. Sorry, the southern white boy redneck in me just couldn't resist.
Walker
thanks for the kudos. When people like us have finally had enough of this crap----watch out. Viva la revolution! At least when the feces hits the rotary oscilator i'll be ready. I wonder what all these over educated, elite, anti gun, egghead liberals will do. Start singing "We Are The World" i suppose.
Peace, love and understanding ya'll
Comment by Will — November 6, 2009 @ 5:01 pm
Hey guys,
The name-calling stuff is eyebrow-raising, briefly, but it quickly wears thin, you know?
How about we use our passions and intellects and fingers (on the keyboard) to call arguments silly and dumb, rather than each other, OK?
Comment by Dan Casey — November 6, 2009 @ 5:08 pm
Will
So it is your claim that the misspelling was intentional? C'mon.
Comment by VVarlock — November 6, 2009 @ 5:55 pm
I apologize for any "name calling" I have done. Being so "prolific" (which sounds so much nicer than "big mouthed") I, no doubt drop a few bombs when I am passionately 'typing' my responses. FWIW, just be glad that I do not impose my favorite 4 letter word like the best sailor you ever heard (my constant sorrow is my potty mouth), I pray and pray and then go right back to cussin'. I sincerely do apologize to any I have offended. I love to argue and read the discussions, but I am prone to respond in kind and that does not serve my message and I know it.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 6, 2009 @ 6:42 pm