2009.11.06
The Fort Hood shooter had a Virginia concealed-carry permit
My colleagues here in the newsroom just broke a story about the background of former Vinton, Va. resident Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan. It's on Roanoke.com, and you can find it here.
One interesting note, among many: Hasan was issued a Virginia concealed handgun permit by the Roanoke County Circuit Court in 1996.
He was also a Muslim.
Comment by Henry — November 6, 2009 @ 1:07 pm
As much as I oppose the concealed handgun laws in Virginia, I must say I can draw no connection between this and Hasan's rampage. He was on a military base, for Cripes sake, where I'm certain there were plenty of guns at his disposal. Had he done this at a bar, in Roanoke, I would have a different opinion.
Comment by Lynda K — November 6, 2009 @ 1:09 pm
And this is relevant for what reason?
Comment by Heywood — November 6, 2009 @ 1:57 pm
Henry, he was also a Tech grad. And a doctor. Surely these facts are as relevant as his faith.
Comment by Kristen — November 6, 2009 @ 2:04 pm
And a William Fleming graduate. We could blame Susan Willis.
Comment by Jill — November 6, 2009 @ 2:09 pm
Doubt it Kristen - Most doctors don't recite their code of ethics before killing 13 people. I guess yelling "Alluha Akbar " before he began shooting has no bearing on this.
Comment by Walker — November 6, 2009 @ 2:16 pm
Dan, What on God's Green Earth does Hasan having a CCW have anything to do with any of this? They were on an Army Base (hint- lots of guns and ammo) - I don't think having one or not would have helped/hurt anyone involved in this act.
Comment by Walker — November 6, 2009 @ 2:23 pm
So...not surprisingly, the fact that he liked to walk around with a gun everywhere had nothing to do with his shooting people. What a stunning conclusion.
Comment by Kristen — November 6, 2009 @ 2:30 pm
He never killed anyone while LEGALLY carrying. It was illegal to carry on the base thereby proving that laws against conceal-carry kill people. (cough)
Comment by Henry — November 6, 2009 @ 2:36 pm
Yep, stunning!
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 6, 2009 @ 2:40 pm
huh, he didn't get it online? That's weird. An interesting note is that he's from here! Scary.
Comment by mattyr — November 6, 2009 @ 2:43 pm
Was it a concealed handgun that was used in this?
He probably has red blood cells too? Your point?
Dan, I think you also have a CWP from Virginia, so does that mean you are like this guy? Is that what you are trying to say?
Shame on you. A low blow at a time of national tragedy with a total meaningless factoid.
WAIT! I KNOW WHAT CAUSED THIS! HE PROBABLY READ THE ROANOKE TIMES AT SOME POINT IN HIS LIFE TOO!!!!!!!
Darn that gun show loophole anyway! Here is another one that was NOT done with a gun purchased at a gun show....
Comment by Bob H — November 6, 2009 @ 3:01 pm
Henry #9, we know, we know......the answer to this is always MORE people carrying guns, right?
Comment by Dan Casey — November 6, 2009 @ 3:06 pm
Henry - Yep a Muslim. Worshiped the same God as Christians.
Comment by ernie — November 6, 2009 @ 3:11 pm
Walker-
I'm guessing that the gist of Dan's mention of a CCW permit is that CCW proponents, myself included, have repeatedly pointed out that CCW permit holders commit gun crime and crime in general at rates far below the general public. Dan has decided, before the blood has even dried, to publish a, "Well what about THIS gun nuts, huh, what about this," bit of gotcha garbage.
Had there been any coherent argument to go with it, it would have merely been insensitive or bad taste. Instead it's despicable and pathetic, and frankly, I was shocked to see it when I brought up the page today.
Comment by Jason — November 6, 2009 @ 3:13 pm
Dan,
The answer is relating only relevant facts about the tragedy and not using it to further your gun control oriented agenda.
Shame on you.
Comment by Bob H — November 6, 2009 @ 3:20 pm
Walker
What do you think Roeder said before his murder of Dr. Tiller? Probably something very similar to 'Alluha Akhbar'.
Comment by VVarlock — November 6, 2009 @ 3:22 pm
Who stopped him, Dan? Someone with a gun.
Comment by Henry — November 6, 2009 @ 3:22 pm
Well if the gun was not concealed, you would think more people would have had a chance to escape or notice it, so my guess is yes, concealed. Whether he had a CCP from Texas or not, I don't think he was allowed to "carry" on the base so it would SEEM irrelevant until you put it ALL together and think that there are at least some people who get a CCP and carry a handgun in public BECAUSE they feel threatened or "persecuted" and that makes it a very relevant point to consider in the whole "why" scheme. Just as the vandalism to his car does. Whatever his decisions they most likely did not happen in a vacuum or a Disney movie scenario and now innocent people are dead and lives are destroyed.
And now Orlando...
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 6, 2009 @ 3:25 pm
Oh my god, a Muslim allowed to carry a gun. What are people thinking? Only the police and the military need guns... oh wait...
Comment by PU — November 6, 2009 @ 3:34 pm
So, of the two worst mass murders in America in many years, one occured at Virginia Tech, and the other had roots at Virginia Tech. Does ANYONE ELSE think that is a remarkably creepy co-incidence? Does the military have any programs in place there that need to be looked at more closely?
Comment by Matt — November 6, 2009 @ 3:49 pm
Why yes Dan, it is. You know those people who are trained in the use of weapons and lethal force - the US Army. Don't you think they should be armed since they are a target of these sorts of attacks?
Or maybe you are trying to say that US Army officers, men and women who are entrusted to lead large groups of other armed men and women, can't be trusted with guns to defend their own lives.
Lets face it, this was an individual that attacked the armed forces of the United States during a time of war, for the same motives that drive our enemy, and he did it while wearing a false uniform. When he recovers, he should be tried and sentenced for treason as a sabotuer, and executed according to the laws of war.
Comment by LM — November 6, 2009 @ 3:51 pm
I got it... Muslims shouldn't have guns. They shouldn't be in the military either.
Comment by PU — November 6, 2009 @ 3:53 pm
Hey PU,
A muslim that didn't apparently want to go back to the homeland. Apparently he liked the US of A.
Dan,
you really need to address what some many are posting about. Your tastlessness in this BLOG.
Comment by Bob H — November 6, 2009 @ 4:07 pm
VVarlock - I blogged on another thread here that Tiller's killer was a Christian terrorist. Just as this guys is a Muslim terrorist. And I don't think Roeder said anything. Again your point is? Did Tiller say anything to the fetuses before he aborted them?
Comment by Walker — November 6, 2009 @ 4:10 pm
Jason
Perhaps Dan had a point about the flawed system VA uses to issue CCW permits. I believe I remember him complaining/commenting about the system before.
It is also an appropriate anecdotal controversion of some of the points made by CCW and 2nd amendment supporters, including both of us.
While not statistical, in your post you described his use of anecdote pretty well. This is an instance of someone with a CCW committing the worst form of violent gun crime. He certainly has a point, even if we all show that this is an outlier and not really representative.
Comment by VVarlock — November 6, 2009 @ 4:11 pm
Well he was allowed to join the Service so they thought his record was clear enough.,Whats really alarming is the constant problems at Ft Hood including the second largest mass killing in America..second only to one that took place at the present shooters Alma Mater..Va Tech
Comment by Tony — November 6, 2009 @ 4:12 pm
I wonder what Dr Tiller said before the murder of all those unborn kids? Probably something very similar to "Hail Darwin". (while we are making up conversations for people to have)
They were all killing people in the name of their beliefs. The Muslim shooter, the pro-life shooter, the abortionist. The difference is that people rarely get killed in the name of pro-life. A patient is more likely to die due to an abortion than a doctor.
Comment by Henry — November 6, 2009 @ 4:15 pm
LM
You know that CCW permits are not valid on government installations like Ft. Hood... right?
So, he was not actually entitled to be carrying where he was.
Also, this is one attack, an extreme rarity on US soil your use of 'attacks' may be over doing it.
I would agree that he should be tried by courts martial as soon as he is well enough to aid in his own defense. Although it might be a little early to convict him (you said 'tried and sentenced').
Comment by VVarlock — November 6, 2009 @ 4:16 pm
Warlock,
Dan has no point about a flawed system in Virginia if there is not any proved relevancy of that to this crime. And, it wouldn't matter anyway because he made this post before any of the facts came out about whether it was a concealed weapon, etc. Which means he is USING this tragedy to further HIS OWN AGENDA about concealed permits in Virginia.
Which is not only wrong, but it is utterly deplorable.
Dan, and I mean this wholeheartedly, we did not agree politically I will grant you, but I did have some respect for you. This has lowered that to a very hard to measure level.
Bob
Comment by Bob H — November 6, 2009 @ 4:38 pm
No, now I've really got it. Officers in the military shouldn't have guns.
Comment by PU — November 6, 2009 @ 4:44 pm
VVarlock-
"Perhaps Dan had a point about the flawed system VA uses to issue CCW permits. I believe I remember him complaining/commenting about the system before."
His complaints were mostly about the lack of a rigorous training component. That obviously was not in play in this incident.
"It is also an appropriate anecdotal controversion of some of the points made by CCW and 2nd amendment supporters, including both of us."
Only if those supporters claim that concealed carriers never ever commit gun crime or flip their lids. No sane pro-gun person I know has ever made such a claim.
"While not statistical, in your post you described his use of anecdote pretty well. This is an instance of someone with a CCW committing the worst form of violent gun crime. He certainly has a point, even if we all show that this is an outlier and not really representative."
I'm sorry VVarlock, I have to disagree, I don't see a point that anyone didn't already know -- on rare occasions, for various reasons, people lose their minds and shoot up some place. Some of them might have CCW permits. Most of them don't. Would I have had a point if I had posted after Virginia Tech and said, "See, he didn't have a CCW permit, you non concealed carriers can't be trusted!"
Comment by Jason — November 6, 2009 @ 4:46 pm
So he had a Virginia-issued CHP? He was on a military base in Texas. He went on a murderous rampage.
Had he not had a Virginia CHP Dan Casey would have us believe that this particular muzzie, following the religion of peace (which incites its members to slaughter "infidels")(read: everyone else) would not have murdered his fellow servicemen and women.
Yes it all makes perfect sense now.
Hey, Dan: criminals don't obey the law. And you have no understanding of it. Stop commenting on gun laws (all of which are grossly unconstitutional) and find a new hobby. You aren't any good at being a "journalist" or a columnist. You're a bloody hack.
Comment by ConfederateSon — November 6, 2009 @ 4:52 pm
@ VVarlock #29
Yes, I am aware of that, I am in the military. I was trying to point out the absurdity of bringing up the fact that the killer had a CHP, even though it has absolutely no bearing on the events. Also the absurdity of our military bases being, by mandate, internally defenseless during a time of war. Force protection on a military bases, including National Guard armories, is inadequate, and the prohibition on privately owned weapons only makes it worse.
I accurately used the term attacks. The Fort Dix plot was an attack, although it was foiled in its early stages. There have been other, less widely publicized plans that were also stopped. Also a handful of soldiers who have killed fellow soldiers and superior officers, although they generally committed suicide and the motives will always remain unknown.
I said he "should be tried and sentenced," an expression of personal opinion based on the facts of the case as they stand. I find it very hard to see how the facts could change enough at this point to change that opinion.
Comment by LM — November 6, 2009 @ 4:52 pm
This is off topic but worthy of thought...
Matt writes: "So, of the two worst mass murders in America in many years, one occured at Virginia Tech, and the other had roots at Virginia Tech. Does ANYONE ELSE think that is a remarkably creepy co-incidence?"
Let's not forget the off campus killing of two Virginia Tech students recently, as well as the decapitation of Xin Yang in January, at the school, and the recent dissapearance of Morgan Harrington - a current student at Tech.
My daughter, who was once setting her sights on a Va Tech education no longer has any interest in attending the school. She thinks it's somehow "cursed".
I agree with Matt. There have been far too many horrific crimes involving Tech students over the past several years. I don't hear many news reports mentioning other colleges. Is it because it doesn't happen there or because we are just closer to this source? I don't mean to imply there is a common sinister thread here but one has to wonder why...
Comment by Lynda K — November 6, 2009 @ 5:17 pm
Just another tragic symptom of a nation that has turned it's back on God. "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land".
Comment by Will — November 6, 2009 @ 5:21 pm
Henry
I can demonstrate that Roeder was a religious nutjob motivated by the evils of christianity. Can you show any motivation other than compliance with the law for Dr. Tiller.
No one Hails Darwin and Evolution is not a motivation in the manner that religion is. Your analogy is weak.
As for your more likely to die, scientists estimate that 70% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, so god is the largest abortionist.
More people die in childbirth than from abortions, so again the body as designed by your god is responsible for more deaths of women than doctors giving abortions.
As an example and according to the CDC, in 1999 only 4 deaths of women resulted from complications of legal abortion procedures (I was unable to find newer data on that link and too lazy to dig around the CDC's site).
I also challenge your assertion that abortions are killing of people as not biblically correct.
Those potential people are, by biblical definition, not alive or people until they breathe their first breath. This is when, in both the Jewish and christian (pre-1980's revisionist work) traditions the soul enters the body and the person becomes more than an animal. Gen 2:7, Ezekiel 37:1-14, Joshua 10:40, 1 Kings 15:29, Ex 21:22-23.
How about Numbers 5:21 where it says god and a priest will conspire to punish adultery by causing the woman to have an abortion through the use of bitter waters.
Again, I am more moral than the bible. What a disgusting work of bronze age superstition.
While I am anti-abortion, I prefer to push my agenda by education about alternatives, including (cover the ears of the YEC's) condoms and birth control. Including actual sex education that works not the parental version of closing our eyes and lying to the kids (abstinence only). I do not feel that my beliefs are superior to those of someone else to the point I would attempt to legislate them onto those others.
Comment by VVarlock — November 6, 2009 @ 5:23 pm
Jason 32
I acknowledge your counter points, but I actually agree with him about he need for rigorous training. There are numerous points of control to keep me in line with my weapon, there is only one for the civilian with the CCW. I think mandatory and significant training should be required for any CCW, even if they are typically more responsible members of society (in my experience and anecdotally only).
As for your last para, your claim of disagreement is erroneous based upon your own words, you exactly agree with what I said.
Confederate Son 33
Your idiotic religious bigotry aside (and completely ignoring the xenophobic evils perpetrated by christians every day and throughout history), the reason it applies here, on this blog is that we have been discussing this and it is a Roanoke VA paper. Dan seems to understand gun law fairly well, just from a different point than the rest of us, which facilitates discussion as opposed to the acerbic venom you spewed here.
LM 34
I think that banning weapons on a base is ... odd. Nonsensical even? The Ft. Dix plot never materialized afaik. Thus calling it an attack is like calling Palin Vice-President. I know what you meant about tried and sentenced, but it represents a layman's view of law and order and I was challenging it as not the American way, fair trial and all.
Comment by VVarlock — November 6, 2009 @ 5:48 pm
Will #36
Yeah like more religion is what is needed in a situation where the killer praised the abrahamic god as he committed his atrocities.
Your god is the source of much evil in this world and specifically in the U.S. The lack of personal responsible inherent in the christian system coupled with the degradation of humanity and other evils espoused by its dogma make christianity a force for stupidity and evil. We need less of your evil, not more.
Comment by VVarlock — November 6, 2009 @ 5:52 pm
You folks need to cool the jets on the CCP issue. When such a tragedy occurs, EVERYTHING is relevant to the discussion and if this were any other hot topic you would agree. It may well be that you are correct and his CCP status has no bearing or relevance to the crime. BUT, just like the FACTS that he lived in this area, went to a local high school and graduated from Virginia Tech, the news reports have mentioned his parents, their homes and business interests and interviewed a fellow he went to high school with, it is all up for discussion and arm chair analysis like all the other topics we hit on here.
Bob H, if you don't like or respect Dan, go to another blog and leave off with the judgmental insults. We like him, his perspective and his quirky topics just fine, and I will remind you and other insulters yet again, participation here is OPTIONAL. I am sure Dan, like any sane person will graciously accept constructive criticism, but if you want to run the blog, start one.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 6, 2009 @ 5:57 pm
I am no Tech fan, but I seriously think that any University of that size could easily have a similar run of bad luck. Humanity and the lack of it, is the real problem.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 6, 2009 @ 6:00 pm
Sandi is right on with that comment so lay off with all the crazy concealed gun lunacy. No homegrown terrorist yelling "Allahu Akbar" has any business getting a permit to carry a weapong in Virginia!
Comment by PU — November 6, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
PU-
Thank you for your groundbreaking stand against terrorists being given CCW permits.
Comment by Jason — November 6, 2009 @ 8:26 pm
No problem Jason. Just imagine if this terrorist had found one of those loop-holes that at all over the gun shows in Virginia and took it to a bar!
Comment by PU — November 6, 2009 @ 11:17 pm
I'm sorry, what in the constitution prevents "home grown terrorists" screaming "Alu Ahkbar" from owning guns?
"Shall not be infringed", right?
Comment by Kristen — November 7, 2009 @ 7:32 am
Kristen, Who needs the constitution? Why not just have more laws that will keep us safe? That shall not be infringed part is way overblown. Nobody needs guns. The police in Britain don't carry guns.
Comment by PU — November 7, 2009 @ 6:11 pm
PU
And the founding fathers carried muskets and maybe a couple of single shot very early rifles. They may have even had a single shot flintlock pistol in their lifetime (although they were pretty rare before the Constitutional Convention). There was nothing even close to the kind of weaponry we had now. 15 shots in my Glock 22 whose magazines go into my Glock 27 which I can pretty much conceal in my hand.
We can not know how they would have felt about those kind of weapons. We can not know what they would have said about a society where religion has led to the almost complete removal of personal responsibility and thus to incidents like this. I mean, you beat your wife some, no big deal jesus will forgive you. Perhaps you stole a car... just go to prison and psychically tell jesus you are sorry and it will be all better. What is a little punishment here on earth when you get to be a mindless drone simpering on for all eternity in 'heaven'?
Comment by VVarlock — November 8, 2009 @ 6:04 am
PU, I actually think it's possible to be both safe and within the intent of the conversation.
My post overhead wasn't meant seriously.
Comment by Kristen — November 8, 2009 @ 11:30 am
Right On Kristen. We need laws that prevent people from owning dangerous things and acting dangerously! That is the only way to be safe all the time! I now read that this crazy jerk had some kind of special cop killer gun loaded with special bullets. Why are these even made? As if having a regular gun isn't bad enough, having one made especially to kill cops??? What for?
Comment by PU — November 8, 2009 @ 7:36 pm
For those who have not yet realized that PU is a very clumsy troll, or just desperately ignorant:
The "cop killer" gun that he is referring to is the Five Seven, manufactured by FN Herstal. It uses a round that was designed for a small carbine for the Belgian military. As it was meant for a carbine, it had to penetrate level 2 kevlar body armor. They then designed this handgun to use the same ammunition, since the round was so small.
So the Brady Campaign found this out and OH MY GOD, IT GOES THROUGH BULLET PROOF VESTS, IT'S A COP KILLER!!!!! Except, as is almost always the case, the depth of their research could be measured in sheets of paper. The gun needs a particular variant of its 5.7x28mm ammunition to penetrate kevlar, a variant not available to the public, only to law enforcement and military. Even if it was, it would have played no role in this massacre since he wasn't shooting at anyone with body armor. And despite all of this, the BC is still fear mongering over the gun, even though they admit that there hasn't been a single LEO death from it.
The only other distinguishing characteristic of the gun is that it has a large capacity, 20 rounds per magazine. However, this is not wildly out of line with many less exotic and less publicized handguns.
Comment by Jason — November 8, 2009 @ 9:11 pm
See what happens with the guns. I bet this kid had some sort of permit and lots of training as well!
Teen killed in hunting accident
The Roanoke Times
Sunday, November 08, 2009
A teenager was killed while hunting Saturday, according to the Buena Vista Police Department.
Victor D. Clark, 15, was shot while hunting with Codee M. Clark, according to the release. Codee Clark, of Lexington, has been charged with involuntary manslaughter and recklessly handling a firearm.
The release from the police department does not list an age for Codee Clark, nor does it specify a relationship between the two Clarks.
Codee Clark was taken to the Rockbridge Regional Jail on Saturday, according to the release, and then released this morning on $1,000 bond.
Comment by PU — November 8, 2009 @ 10:37 pm
Jason,
I'm not clumsy at all, and you are the ignorant one! That is still a scary looking gun that no killer should own! I hope my neighbor doesn't have one! What I don't understand is how did that cop survive after being blasted by that specially designed hand cannon?
Speaking of the Brady Campaign, they are looking for donations if any one is interested.
Comment by PU — November 9, 2009 @ 12:35 am
PU
Who said you needed a gun?
Man Murdered With Knife & Fork, 1 Arrested
MARIETTA, Ga. -- Police have charged a 21-year-old Marietta man with killing an acquaintance with a knife and fork.
Richard Smith was arrested on Wednesday in the parking lot of an apartment complex in College Park.
Enforce those existing laws for criminals and let the punishment fit the crime.
PU
Codee M. Clark was charged with involuntary manslaughter and recklessly handling a firearm.
The one main lesson of firearms safety: 1) The first thing they teach you in gun safety class is never point it at ANYONE that you aren't willing to kill.
2) Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot!
For all this kids training he never paid attention to this simple fact, and the police is being very lenient in charging this kid.
This kid was shot in the chest, meaning he pointed the gun directly at this kid and fired this kid should be charged with 1st degree murder, not involuntary manslaughter.
He knew what he was doing just as Nidal and Cho did.
Bailed out on a $1000.00? Lexington police are you serious?
Comment by Static Lines — November 9, 2009 @ 3:16 am
PU,
From the information I have, the gun was a rifle (no permit required, just a hunting license) that was jammed. Obviously, someone was standing in the wrong place and the gun fired.
This was a tragic accident, but trying to make this a gun issue is a stretch at best.
Comment by Blue John — November 9, 2009 @ 8:05 am
To everyone reading here-
With those responses (both to my last response and to the hunting incident) PU has made it clear that he is trolling. He is using the cliched lines about scary looking guns (which is a phrase used by pro-gun activists to describe anti-gun people) and showing no regard to any information given him.
I kindly ask that regardless of which side you fall on the gun issue, from this point forward, ignore him.
Comment by Jason — November 9, 2009 @ 8:59 am
Jason is right on virtually everything he said here to contradict PU.
My Glock holds 15+1. The FN 5.7 is just another handgun with a powerful round. The armor piercing round is available since there is a carbine which also uses this calibre, but no armor piercing rounds are legally available to the public, for pistol or handgun.
Also, PU's anecdotes are just that and nowhere, in no system does any anecdote constitute data.
PU's scare tactics are reminiscent of those used by the right to oppose the health care reform. Look at the scare tactics for what they are. They are wrong when the right uses them and they are wrong when the left does so too.
Comment by VVarlock — November 9, 2009 @ 9:29 am
Blue John
If the gun jammed then it's a should be a clear case of an accident but if this teen is proven to have reckless tendencies while handling a firearm or other dangerous objects.
Then 1st degree or 2nd degree murder charges should be levied against this teen.
Jason has pointed out some interesting facts about PU..
Thanks Jason
Comment by Static Lines — November 9, 2009 @ 10:00 am
VVarlock - if God is the source of all this evil in the world, what is the source of good in the world or is there one?
Comment by Will — November 9, 2009 @ 1:11 pm
Oh Lord have mercy!
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 9, 2009 @ 1:53 pm
Will 58
There is no source for all the evil in this world. I never intimated that there was a source for all evil.
I have said the christian god is evil and that comment is based upon the literature, not about the actual existence of any god. I have said that certain major christian tenets/beliefs are evil.
As for my post above, I should have modified that statement. It should read that 'belief in god and religion are the source of much evil in this world.' Since I do not believe that your god is an actual entity he/she/it could not be a source for anything.
All good and evil are human perceptions of actions/events based upon human judgment. Thus there is no actual 'source' for all the good or evil in the world. Human actions based upon beliefs can be good or evil but there is no external source demonstrated by evidence.
Comment by VVarlock — November 9, 2009 @ 3:47 pm
I love how Warlock always turns any thread into a Christian-bashing exercise.
I think I was right before. Sounds pretty angry to me. Oh well.
Hasan's prophet Mohammed, calls for him to do what he did. He just acted on it.
The comparisons being made to Christianity are hysterical, as Jesus tells us to LOVE even our enemies.
Show me where Mohammed said that.
And Dan, your point about Hasan's VA permit is pathetic.
Comment by T Witten — November 9, 2009 @ 4:14 pm
Witten #61
If you look, this thread was 'turned to religion' in comments 1, 4, 6, 7, 14. All before I commented (#16) in contradiction of a religion remark Walker made.
Then there were several comments without any such reference, then I returned to the topic (#37) in response to Henry and (#39) i8n response to Will.
When bronze age crap is brought up, I counter it. End of story. Jesus mentioned love your neighbor (btw- in the original he is referring only to other Jews and it has been watered down in translation to Greek to English.)
As for when Mohammed said similar things:
"Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you" in his Farewell Sermon.
"those who show their affection to such as came to them for refuge and entertain no desire in their hearts for things given to the (latter), but give them preference over themselves" Surah 59
“None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.” An-Nawawi's Forty Hadith 13
"Seek for mankind that of which you are desirous for yourself, that you may be a believer; treat well as a neighbor the one who lives near you, that you may be a Muslim [one who submits to God]." Sukhanan-i-Muhammad (translates as Conversations of Muhammad)
“That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind.” Sukhanan-i-Muhammad
"The most righteous of men is the one who is glad that men should have what is pleasing to himself, and who dislikes for them what is for him disagreeable." Sukhanan-i-Muhammad
Comment by VVarlock — November 10, 2009 @ 3:24 am
Didn't Mohammed also murder hundreds? What did he say to do with "infidels"? Kind of hard to know which Mohammed to believe...
Jesus is CLEAR.
Anyways, way off track.
I did see that YOU didnt start the religious dialogue. Nevertheless, your hatred and anger towards Christianity specifically, inspires me to do more.
Comment by T Witten — November 10, 2009 @ 10:54 am
T Witten-
"Jesus is CLEAR."
I'm not a theologian so forgive me. Did Jesus ever have a discussion with his pops about the whole mass killing thing? Because damn, his dad was one kill-happy son of a gun.
Comment by Jason — November 10, 2009 @ 11:05 am
Many Christians start the religious dialogue and yet, historically, their hatred and anger towards anyone not like them inspired much of the atrocity and "bad blood" still in this world today. You cannot deny the truth. Of course you need to possess the truth before you can share it. The Jesus of the Bible is not the only Christian character that needs to be addressed. The Bible is more than just the New Testament. It is so easy to scream about the current Muslim fundamentalists who hurt others, but much harder to admit the role of Christian fundamentalists who have done so and still are meddling in affairs they cannot understand much less control.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 10, 2009 @ 11:49 am
Reading about the desire to arm, almost, all citizens to insure safety reminds me of "Little Murders," a 1966 movie. All citizens were armed, more than 200 people were murdered every week and no one felt safe on any street. People would open a window and fire randomly. In other words, they were all CRAZY! Is that where we are headed?
Comment by DEN24153 — November 10, 2009 @ 12:09 pm
Jesus is CLEAR. Read the Gospels.
Luke 6: v.27
“But to you who are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies! Do good to those who hate you. 28 Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. 30 Give to anyone who asks; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. 31 Do to others as you would like them to do to you."
Seems pretty clear to me.
Comment by T Witten — November 10, 2009 @ 12:42 pm
VVarlock - you said
"Your god is the source of much evil in this world and specifically in the U.S. The lack of personal responsible inherent in the christian system coupled with the degradation of humanity and other evils espoused by its dogma make christianity a force for stupidity and evil. We need less of your evil, not more".
So I guess you recant this statemant.
"All good and evil are human perceptions of actions/events based upon human judgment. Thus there is no actual 'source' for all the good or evil in the world. Human actions based upon beliefs can be good or evil but there is no external source demonstrated by evidence".
So all this mass murder and evil must be the result of faulty evolution. since natural selection demands survival of the fittest, i think i need to buy a bigger gun.
Comment by Will — November 10, 2009 @ 2:15 pm
Seems pretty clear to me as well, T. Witten. Wonder what makes it so hard to do then?
Comment by Sandi Saunders — November 10, 2009 @ 2:44 pm
Yea Den, just like if we gave everyone gum, we'd all stop eating.
Comment by mattyr — November 10, 2009 @ 2:48 pm
Will #68
Per my post #60 I said
"As for my post above, I should have modified that statement. It should read that 'belief in god and religion are the source of much evil in this world.' Since I do not believe that your god is an actual entity he/she/it could not be a source for anything."
So, your response "So I guess you recant this statemant." is not only misspelled, but ludicrous in that I had already admitted a need to modify my statement to be more precise in response to your point.
Based upon the revision/clarification in #60 my earlier statement #39 would then read
"Belief in your god and your religion are the source of much evil in this world and specifically in the U.S. The lack of personal responsible inherent in the christian system coupled with the degradation of humanity and other evils espoused by its dogma make christianity a force for stupidity and evil. We need less of your evil, not more."
Not to recant, but to modify based upon your pointing out (#58) that I had misspoken, falsely attributing something ( by failing to be thoroughly clear) to a being I do not believe actually exists.
I fully concede that I misspoke and you caught it.
Evolution is not faulty because some of its products act out against the survival certain members of the species.
Humans are still evolving based upon the pressures of their environment, this is an instance of an individual not fully evolved to handle the stresses of his particular environment in a manner consistent with the goals of society.
It says nothing about evolution's viability as a process.
Also, imo, the next area in which humans need to evolve is mental and owning a bigger gun would have little to do with successful reproduction in our society unless you are willing to act criminally.
Comment by VVarlock — November 10, 2009 @ 3:02 pm
Witten #67
Who was it that wrote the Gospel of Luke? And when?
Perhaps that portion of the gospel attributed to Luke was 'clear' but there are piles of unclear ambiguous or downright false things also attributed to your Jesus.
Then there is the christian trinity idea that makes Jesus equal to and part of God. The O.T. god, the same being who ordered the murder of entire populations, including male infants. The same god who also at the same time ordered the sparing of the female children so that the Israelites could use them sexually.
And does it really matter the words attributed to Jesus when he may not have even been a real person; was almost certainly not magical and supernatural; rarely said a new thing, but often re-stated old ideals like the golden rule; promoted division and dissent.
Should it even be a concern to care what this alleged being allegedly said when his book (the N.T.) is the source of the concept of Hell, the most wholly evil and disgusting concept in all of religion.
Keep the words of your Jesus, much evil is done in his name and the concepts that I would have to espouse in order to consider him good outweigh the good he supposedly has said.
Comment by VVarlock — November 10, 2009 @ 3:31 pm
"Reading about the desire to arm, almost, all citizens to insure safety"
Where exactly are you reading about this desire? I carry a freaking gun and I don't want to arm almost all citizens. I've never met anyone on the pro-gun side who wants people who are afraid or uncomfortable with guns to be armed.
"reminds me of "Little Murders," a 1966 movie. All citizens were armed, more than 200 people were murdered every week and no one felt safe on any street. People would open a window and fire randomly. In other words, they were all CRAZY! Is that where we are headed?"
Well you've convinced me. If a 30 year old piece of fiction depicting an event that no one favors and that has never happened proves that CCW is a bad idea, let's get rid of 'em all.
Comment by Jason — November 10, 2009 @ 3:51 pm
Warlock...warlock...warlock.
God bless you.
Comment by T Witten — November 10, 2009 @ 4:28 pm
Anyone interested in contributing to the Brady Campaign? We need to get the guns off the street!
Comment by PU — November 10, 2009 @ 8:39 pm
As a current member of the military and an MP, as well as being stationed at Ft. Hood for 3 yrs I feel the need to tell people that it is illegal to carry any sort of weapon (when not training) while on base. Concealed carry is not allowed on military bases. That means that on a base of 40,000 people there are only 20 or so people (on duty police) keeping you safe from a rampage.
Fact of the matter is this Maj. was allowed to keep shooting people at will till the an officer was on scene.
"if guns kill people do pencils misspell words?"
Comment by Daniel — November 10, 2009 @ 10:25 pm
Witten 74
Which one(s)?
Comment by VVarlock — November 11, 2009 @ 1:50 am
Your God. Even though you don't accept Him. There's always time, for now. The invitation is still there for you. You could think of it as a research opportunity.
Comment by T Witten — November 11, 2009 @ 4:36 pm
Witten #78
Not mine. I rebuke, refuse and deny the christian/abrahamic god.
Even if it were proven to me beyond a doubt that the god of the bible were real, I would refuse his reward. I want nothing from such a corrupt and evil system.
If I have to buy into evils like substutional atonement, original sin and hell in order to receive heaven, I do not want it. It is my fervent desire to have the strength to refuse, even in the face of the certainty of hell. My morality compels me to refuse evil wherever I find it and in both testaments of the bible, I find evil in abundance.
Comment by VVarlock — November 11, 2009 @ 9:48 pm
Warlock, I'll pray for you anyways.
Comment by T Witten — November 12, 2009 @ 10:36 am
Witten
Waste your time in whatever way you feel necessary.
I would ask that you not devote much time to me though. Surely there are family and friends who would enjoy your time and since it is all you have, I would encourage you to spend it wisely.
Comment by VVarlock — November 12, 2009 @ 10:56 am