OLYMPIA, Wash. -- An atheistic sign is included in the state Capitol's holiday display that includes a holiday tree and a Christian nativity scene.
The sign, a new addition this year, is sponsored by the Freedom from Religion Foundation. The sign reads, "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
That is perhaps the biggest reason I have a problem with most atheists. It's not just enough to want to keep religion from being pushed onto them by government or overzealous evangelists...putting out things like that go over the line and they are doing exactly what they decry others for doing to them.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 10:20 am
As an added thought: it would serve everyone well to live by example, show others how they live their own lives through whatever faith they profess, explain their faith to a willing audience when asked to do so, and help to inform people willing to learn (and that goes for everyone). These sort of passive-aggressive attacks on other folks relgious beliefs do absolutely nothing to help them seem like less than a fringe group of people too wrapped up in their cause to see that they aren't helping anything...kind of like Peta, but for religious issues rather than animal issues.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 10:28 am
Not to assume anyone else's motivations or purposes, but I think perhaps "doing exactly what they decry others for doing to them" is the point. They want to be as "in your face" as they perceive some Christian displays to be. Live and let live is a fine motto but they feel that an awful lot of Christian symbolism, missionary work and evangelism is not working under the same premise, so they counter punch. It is disrespectful to many just as some of the Christian displays and protests are disrespectful to them. It is a vicious cycle and I sure see no way for it to end (in a free society). I think the only thing that keeps it from getting completely out of hand is the fact that our government maintains (as much as is possible) the separation between Church and State. If the government pushes, they (like any other marginalized group) will feel the need to push back.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 10:47 am
He who believes not in a supreme power or God, believes not in a hereafter. He who believes not in a hereafter, believes not in an accountability for this life. He who has no accountability in this life has no morals. Dont blame what I said on anyone else, it is not a quote from anywhere. I dont understand why any athiest is so bothered by my belief in God. I would rather hear someone say "God bless America" than hear "Good luck America". This is my first post but I feel I know most of you from Letters to the editor for many years.
Oh no, Other John, you had to go there... Watching the PETA videos on needless animal cruelty changed me into a vegetarian (for a year now), so a receptive audience is out there and if a message/cause means enough to you, you will risk the ire of some to reach some.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 10:52 am
Sandi, I grew up in Hampton Roads near the Peta HQ there. For every one thing that they show that might actually be beneficial, they do about 3 stupid PR stunts designed solely to garner attention rather than further their cause. They passed out "Unhappy Meals" at local McDonalds with a manic-looking Ronald McDonald doll holding a bloody butcher knife and a bloody apron to kids, have protested using naked Peta members outside of circuses where kids have been present, have thrown paint and fake blood on people who wear furs, and have quietly supported the ALF/ELF terrorists who target car dealerships, construction sites, and meatpacking plants through arsons (extremely environmentally damaging), cutting of refrigerant lines (releasing harmful Freon, mind you), and other acts they have pereptrated. I have very little respect for peta because of those things. Not to mention that some of their members were caught dumping large numbers of dead animals in random dumpsters so they would not be caught with them. They are kooks, and their message of better animal treatment gets completely lost on most folks because of their antics.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 11:01 am
wait a second...weren't most of you saying just yesterday that it was fine for the government to make santa calls which clearly promotes some religions and not others?
You guys don't have a problem with the nativity scene and the christmas tree but you have a problem with the atheist sign. If a governmental building is going to put up decorations for one faith and another faith would like decorations to be put up for theirs they either need to allow it or not put up decorations at all. You guys who supported the santa calls but not the atheist sign are all just hypocrits.
Hello and Welcome Carl, your statement was very profound. I too struggle with understanding non-believers but I fully understand that "free will" is about just that. I cannot fathom that anyone is frightened by any individual person's beliefs but organized religion has done some damage and has caused people to feel excluded, unloved, shunned etc. so I do see their perspective. I appreciate positive people and affirmation of good in them without knowing their motives or beliefs. I try hard to have an open (although admittedly very Liberal) mind. Hope you enjoy posting and can avoid the frustration of being misunderstood or judged.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Other John, while I am fully aware of PETA stunts and outlandish behavior, I also understand the desperation and passion they feel. I do not condone their extreme behavior any more than I do the abortion protesters who line Williamson Road with pictures of aborted fetuses for passing children to see or Fred Phelps and his "church" protesting at a gay person's funeral, or a Neo-Nazi march in the streets. I will not defend the tactics or say that kooks are not attracted or even encouraged to be outrageous (even dangerous and destructive) for all of those groups, I simply say, PETA worked for me.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 11:30 am
HCS, for me, the reason i have the problem with the sign is to me, it is not promoting the atheists beliefs so much as it is denegrating and attacking other people for having them. If the atheists had any sort of non-derogatory display they wanted to include, I'd be fine with the concept since it would be positively reflecting their beliefs (or lack thereof, whichever the case may be) in a similar light to having a Christmas tree, nativity, Menorah, or other religous symbol. I still don't like the idea of government sanctioning these displays...but if they are going to do it, it needs to be open to the established, organized, or otherwise recognized religions out there...or not done at all.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 11:32 am
I don't think these are atheists. Atheists don't celebrate the Solstice and they don't sit around thinking about religion. I think these are bitter Anti's who live merely to complain. They see joy in other's lives and look for ways to snuff it out. Most of their complaints about religion are lodged in paranoia where they believe that churches are filled with people just like them who live solely to conspire against them personally. They are the people who can tell you everything that happens in a church despite the fact they haven't darkened the door of one in decades.
Its not surprising that they demanded a chance to express themselves and then wasted it by making a fool of themselves, exhibiting one of the traits they condemn in others. They are the ones enslaved; enslaved to a hatred of something they don't really understand.
Besides, everyone knows that shopping is the reason for the season.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 11:41 am
Sandi, as long as there are people out there such as those you mentioned, who manage to reach and affect a person to bring them to their side, they will continue those outrageous and hurtful/hateful acts because they know they work. If people simply ignored them and didn't give them the time of day, they would eventually dwindle and fade away. They may have good points to make or good information to show to otherwise uninformed folks...but at some point someone needs to say enough is enough. On a side note...it amazes me that some people will absoltelu condemn a group for using violence or hatred to get their point across...while simultaneously supporting another group who uses the same tactics because they agree with the larger message. Violence, hatred, and intolerance to obtain a desired result is not something that should be condoned because it tarnishes the results of that effort. Many of the greatest changes in our history have come through peaceful demonstrations and efforts to bring awareness to an issue and inform the public as to the problem. Those not only are very effective, but they win the hearts and minds of the people seeing it happen. Engaging in violence only serves to create violent reactions in others, and perpetuates the problem in most cases because neither side seems interested in the actual problem anymore, but rather in fighting those opposed to their POV.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 11:50 am
OJ - the thing is that while their quote "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." may sound hurtful to other religions, it is their belief system. It just so happens that their set of beliefs comes across as negative because it is against the majority (because most people believe in some sort of a religion) so their belief that religion is a crock is hurtful to religious folks. But in the same light, the nativity scene could be percieved as undermining the atheist folks because it is against their belief.
Again, the point is, if you WANT a governemental body or building to display decorations that are religious based then you have to be willing and accept the fact then ANY religion can have their decorations displayed in the same place...even if it does not coincide with your religious beliefs.
I don't have a problem allowing anyone, including atheists, to put something in a holiday display that the town sponsors. I have a particular problem with this sign, though. This sign is derogatory and disrespectful. If they wanted to post a sign such as "We don't believe in God, but we hope every one enjoys a holiday season in their own way," that would be fine with me.
Comment by Joe (not the plumber) — December 2, 2008 @ 12:00 pm
OJ,
I don't think PETA's links to ELF are as strong as you're implying. They gave some money a few years back to support an ELF spokesman in a free speech case, which could support your earlier statement that they "quietly supported" these groups. But there's no evidence that I've seen that PETA has itself engaged in violent or illegal actions.
Comment by Dan Radmacher — December 2, 2008 @ 12:15 pm
Other John, I am not arguing in support of any violence or hurtful activities by any group (even the ones I agree with). I resisted PETA for many years, exactly because of the silly stunts you mentioned but the reality videos I saw were not staged protests and that is what swayed me that the needless cruelty inflicted by evil, inept, cruel, ignorant or sadistic (maybe all of the above) people on helpless animals is a disgrace to God and mankind and I am thankful to PETA for making it available. It was the push I needed to make a decision that I am comfortable with. That does not mean I condone/respect all of their actions any more than I condone/respect every woman's behavior because I am one, or every Democrat's behavior because I am one... I try to look at the big picture without condemning out of hand the whole. Again, I do not speak for PETA or any other group and I could certainly be wrong. I appreciate the discussion.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 12:25 pm
I agree Dan...they have not themselves (at least the organization) perpetuated the acts I mentioned. However, growing up a couple miles from their HQ, the people in that area were more than thrilled to see what ELF/ALF were doing and made it known in the local news when they were interviewed. Now, like I said perhaps it was not organizational support so much as individual support, but they were Peta members speaking out supporting the acts overall intent and message...and no one from Peta went on TV to condemn the violence used in those cases, ever, from my recollection.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 12:43 pm
For Sandi #19, I have also seen the videos you've mentioned and been around a couple of hog and turkey farms, and I do not buy commercial meat because of it. I still eat meat though, but I buy it from sources I know to treat their animals far better than the large-scale commercial food industry sites. I only buy free-range, naturally raised, Halal meat if I can find it (it's not easy). I've watched some of the process and while it's still not something I could do personally, it's far more humane and less traumatizing than the commercial, mechanized plants that either shoot the animals or mecahnically feed them through robotic beheading contraptions.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 12:49 pm
That's the funny thing HCS. I was an atheist for years and I was never told by anyone that I was going to Hell. Granted, I did not go looking for that information either. I didn't go to the Baptist church or watch Christian TV or any such stuff. If someone had asked me to put up an atheist display for Christmas, I would have put up a Christmas Tree. Nothing says secular celebration like a purloined pagan symbol on a hijacked Christian holiday.
As a Christian, I celebrate Advent. Christmas is not a religious holiday for me.
Ok so all atheists have not been told they are going to hell. People have a problem with this atheist sign because it seems "mean" to all the religious folks. but as i said before, it is just their belief just the same as holy rollers believe that the only way to live a meaningful life is to be a follower of God.
Simple as this: if you are going to cry attack on christianity when someone is upset about a christian display on governmental property, don't get your panties in a bunch when an atheist gets theirs.
The Christian display does not attack people of other beliefs unlike the display put up by the political group. Why not put up a display that says "Celebrate Solstice"?
Instead the political group disguised itself as spokesman for atheists and put up a display saying that religions like Islam are a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds
that's interesting that you Henry picked out Islam of all the religions you could've picked from...but that's beside the point. You can pick at what was on their sign all you want and suggest less harsh things it could've said but it all comes back to this: if one group is allowed to be put on display on governmental grounds, so can another and it is just too bad if it doesn't agree with your beliefs. If it causes you too much pain to read that sign on a governmental building then ok, take it down but you better take down that nativity scene while your at it.
henry...they would not say celebrate solstice because they aren't pagan. Most solstice celebrations are about the re-birth of the sun god...which sort of goes against what an atheist believes (or doesn't believe...I get confused about this). But I agree with you. There is nothing inherently hurtful about a Christmas Tree, a Menorah, a statue of Vishnu, or any other religious symbol that I can think of. The quote is a direct slam of people of faith. While it may be what the athiests think, it does not portray their message positively at all and cannot be equated to a Christmas Tree in my mind. I am quite sure there would be a way to have a small sign with a short statement that outlined the general philosophy of an atheist that did not involve attacking people's belief in God...but they chose not to do that.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
Comment by Other John:
"Engaging in violence only serves to create violent reactions in others, and perpetuates the problem in most cases"
If there are any violent atheists or animal defenders, this certainly must be the reason for it.
Comment by Henry:
"Instead the political group disguised itself as spokesman for atheists and put up a display saying that religions like Islam are a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds"
FFRF is the country's largest spokesman for atheists & other dissenters. And of course, defending the rights of atheists is a political cause; that's the reason such organizations exist. To defend against the harm done by religions like Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. fundamentalisms.
sure a nativity scene or tree does not hurt someone physically...and neither does the quote on the atheist sign. Perhaps someone of another religion would be hurt to see that christianity is displayed at the government building and not theirs...not hurt physically but hurt. So, in that instance the christianity and other religious symbols are hurtful to someone...unless their religion (or not religion, however you want to look at that one) is also displayed.
Don't get me wrong, perhaps that could've chosen a more positive quote for their sign but I don't think they should be criticised for having their beliefs displayed alongside others beliefs.
That's just it. FFRF is a political group. It does not speak for atheists. A Nativity scene is a Christian symbol. What this group did was no different from a political group taking advantage of a Christmas display to put out an anti-abortion display that has nothing to do with Christmas.
If the political group put out a sign that said "Islam is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds", what do you think the government would have done? Allowed it? I doubt that. I don't think the government should be allowing political groups to use holiday exhibits to express their opinions.
"He who believes not in a supreme power or God, believes not in a hereafter. He who believes not in a hereafter, believes not in an accountability for this life. He who has no accountability in this life has no morals."
WOW Carl! You should put that on a billboard! I hope I'm misreading/misunderstanding.
It's so comforting doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do because you know and feel it is the right thing to do instead of needing to be threatened by some supreme power into doing the right thing! It's unfortunate that some require morals and accountability be forced upon them and reiterated on a weekly basis. Mine come naturally, or from my upbringing that did not include religion. From my experience in this very christian country and region, my morals are also apparently much higher caliber than what is being forced upon all those folks every Sunday morning. I sleep very well and late Sunday morning knowing I've helped more than hurt almost every day of my life. Today, with your comment I'd say you need a refresher this weekend, you may have hurt someone.
And whatever happened to agnostic? You never hear that word anymore. Guess like everything these days else you gotta pick an extreme team. I refuse to claim to know all the answers to life's mysteries, and am not threatened by that which I do not yet know or understand (cept for maybe judgemental christians).
Comment by bobdobalena — December 2, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
But the difference is that the tree or nativity does not imply a derogatory attack on another religion (if it is, please explain because I would love to hear it)...it is simply a positive symbol of Christianity (which I am not, btw). The sign, rather than a simple positive statement of atheism, is instead a derogatory attack on all religion...hence the difference.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
Carl,
I think that most atheists don't care one way or the other what your beliefs are. As for your statement, I have encountered a lot of people of the highest morality and integrity who did not believe in God. Conversely, there are many more than a few examples of people who profess to a belief in God who don't seem to hold themselves accountable and who are definitely not of good moral fiber.
I don't try to lead a moral life because of a fear of punishment in the afterlife, but because I believe it is the right thing to do and because I try to treat others as I want to be treated.
Joe (ntp)
Comment by Joe(not the plumber) — December 2, 2008 @ 6:37 pm
Henry: like you (and everyone else in the world) I was born an Atheist. Like you, I was at some time indoctrinated with the belief most prevalent in my family (Christianity, and specifically Episcopalian in my case). However, after years of studying the issues and evidences, I have come to the conclusion that there probably is no god at all, and Judea-Christian god definitely does not exist.
As for the FfRFs message, I see a positive statement; one that says you do not have to let your life be ruled by superstitions and myths. You can be a good, ethical, and moral person without resorting to the ignorant writings of ancient, superstitious goat-herders.
I'm sorry that those of you who continue to belief these fairy-tales are hurt by the message, but (as pointed out by HCS) if you want your messages in the public square, you have to accept all messages, even those that contradict your own.
Your religious belief doesn't bother me, but just as you feel comfortable with pro-religious statements being made in public, I feel comfortable with pro-atheist statements made in public.
Obviously, you didn't read your own post. It's clear that it bothers you. Otherwise, you wouldn't think about it. Your dismissal of books like the Quoran as " ignorant writings of ancient, superstitious goat-herders" is proof that you fixate on the beliefs of others and seek to dismiss them because you don't believe them. "It can't be true because I don't believe it". It's much like the people who say we never landed on the moon. Their mind cannot stretch beyond their own experiences. Instead of freeing their mind, they build palisades to keep things like God out.
Some people stand on the tracks and refuse to believe in trains. But I found it takes a lot of effort to ignore the tracks.
Rob, you make some valid points (as have others). I bow to you and HCS for your knowledge and articulation. As I see it, the biggest 'problem' with the whole issue of religion is the "cry wolf" syndrome. If you see attacks and offense EVERYWHERE, soon people quit listening and stop trying to see you as anything but a whiner. People of faith have every right to stick to there beliefs and they should accept that others do as well and stop the 'pity party' tactics and rhetoric. I absolutely believe in God but I also know enough about history and mankind to acknowledge that I do not know everything and cannot know everything and I accept that ignorance. I do my level best not to condemn others for their belief or non-belief, but I have no such compunction when they come 'in my face' with their condemnation. When a real "crack down" on religion comes, will we even recognize it after all the religious hate rhetoric?
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 3, 2008 @ 8:47 am
"Instead of freeing their mind, they build palisades to keep things like God out."
Clearly you can't expand your mind Henry to accept that there are beliefs out there that differ from your own. You are fine with things that you agree with to be displayed but as soon as it contridicts what you believe you cry for it to be removed and you belittle that belief with your statements. Perhaps they are the ones who have freed their mind...who are you to say if they have or haven't?
Maybe God is a giant computer, we're on a floppy disk, and we need to be reformatted. Then again there's also the folks who believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't have a problem with any religion or the lack thereof, provided the practitioners of them don't denegrate what others believe. That goes for anyone and everyone, no exceptions. I think if people spent more time practising their beliefs rather than trying to prosteletize to whomever they run across or demean other belief systems, the world would be a better place.
Comment by Other John — December 3, 2008 @ 9:27 am
It's been interesting to read all of the posts on this topic. Many say that discussions of religion and politics should always be off-limits but they do indeed have a place. For me, religion has always been a very personal thing...not something that I choose to wear on my sleeve, if you will. Instead, maybe like a child, I continue to be in wonder of the beauty of a new fallen snow, the power of a sudden thunderstorm and the calm that seems to follow.
I marvel at the human body and the "machinery" of life that it encompasses; the spirit that the body encapsulates and the drive with which a person puts one foot in front of the other day after day. I get angry at death (especially at this time of year having lost both parents and a sibling at Christmas). Why must such a wonderful machine break down?
On a daily basis, each and everyone of us must look introspectively at those things that take us from one day to the next. Religion in all shapes and forms can do that. I don't believe that one religion is necessarily better than another. I don't believe that one religion has to be trumpeted over another nor should they be.
At the end of the day, you as an individual should look inward at the things that make your heart warm, your children smile and give you the ability to reach out to a fellow human being with love, dignity, care and respect...all those things that you yourself want and need.
Simple minded on my part? Of course...but that's what gets me through the day.
I agree with your statements. Whatever a person's religion is, whether it is in agreement with my beliefs or not I think it is great that it works for you because quite frankly, it is none of my business what any other individual believes.
In that same light, who cares if there is a sign put up that contradicts your religion? You know they are out there and if you are satisfied with your beliefs being expressed you should be satisfied with someone elses's beliefs being expressed. If you are truly satisfied with your belief and feel strong in it then the fact that a contradicting belief has been expressed shouldn't threaten you to the point of you demanding that it should be taken down while leaving symbols of your belief system standing.
Will, not simple minded at all. High minded and harder to do than it seems, yes. I enjoyed your post and the sentiments behind it and I agree with it. To each their own but try to get along and still respect each other. Finding offense is easy but not productive or enlightening. We have the power to change the dialog, some people just don't want to. It is easier to tear down than build, easier to criticize (anonymous makes it even easier) than praise, and easier to hate than to love. I love a good mix it up, in an honest discussion, I always learn something, but I detest incivility, even as I fall into responding to it. It is a struggle but one worth undertaking because if we cannot discuss it, we cannot understand it.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 3, 2008 @ 10:11 am
Someone much smarter than me once said "Everyone believes in something, even if its nothing". I will have great respect for your beliefs, whatever they are. As for your actions, that's another matter. I respect the teachings of Islam and I condemn flying planes into buildings for what was called "a holy war". I see the "sign" as a act of condemnation not a sign of respect for anothers belief. A gnat or fruitfly is about the lower limit of our vision and yet the ameoba is even smaller. Fifty years + ago I learned that the orders of all animals are devided into nine Phylums. The ameoba is the lowest and humans are the highest as we know them. Phylum nine is the only animal capible of manufacturing products to change his environment. Suppose there is a phylum ten or eleven or maybe we are a few bytes on a floppy or an atom in some giants chair. One thing for sure is that life as we know it will end and we will proceed to the next, even if it is nothing. As inhabitants of the same planet, we are duty bound to leave this world as good as we found it and in no way contribute to its destriction. As I previously said "don't blame others for what I have said".
Henry: no, your belief (or anyone else's) doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the insistence of some that their beliefs be held higher than anyone else's; that their beliefs be officially condoned by the government, excluding all others.
No, I don't respect religious beliefs, not in the least. I respect your right to hold them, but the beliefs themselves are just plain silly. I marvel how in this day and age people who are seemingly intelligent enough to see the BS in other aspects of life still cling to outdated, superstitious myths.
I strongly suspect that all but a very few people, deep down, know that their beliefs are wrong, and even childish, but it's comforting to them to continue to play the game. Old habits are hard to break, but I think we can look around and see the erosion of many of the superstitions. I count that as a good thing.
Now some of you believers will be offended by the above, and for that I truly apologize. I don't say it because I want to offend you; I say it because it's true (in my estimation). I have no desire to engage in countless battles with believers over this and that. But we've seen what happens when we let "little" things slide; the Christians (in this country) get an inch, they take a mile and post crosses every 15 feet.
When allowed official government unfettered, unchallenged access to express their point of view about religion, (for instance, prayers in the schools) Christians turn that into "tradition of strong, Christian heritage in this country." When non-believers have finally had enough and refuse to be marginalized further, we're accused of being un-American. When we finally win some hard-fought battle and have the Constitution recognized and followed, we're cry-babies and meanies for attacking your religion.
The truth is I kind of wish the FfRF had picked a better sign to place there in Washington. "Imagine no Religion" has been effective in some billboard ads they've run. "Don't believe in God? You're not alone." is another one of theirs that I like. Even the one that was in Great Britain, on the buses "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life!" would have been a good one. But I'm glad they put something up.
In most big cities you can't swing a dead cat without hitting some holier-than-thou Christian message. I've seen billboards asking "Why do Atheists hate America?" (http://www.ingodwetrustusa.org/atheists.html) I should be apologetic about what the FfRF said after that? I think not. We Atheists have a long way to go to give negative as good as we get.
RSS feed 
OLYMPIA, Wash. -- An atheistic sign is included in the state Capitol's holiday display that includes a holiday tree and a Christian nativity scene.
The sign, a new addition this year, is sponsored by the Freedom from Religion Foundation. The sign reads, "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
http://www.kirotv.com/news/18172046/detail.html
Nothing like a little Christmas Hate.
Comment by Henry — December 2, 2008 @ 9:24 am
That is perhaps the biggest reason I have a problem with most atheists. It's not just enough to want to keep religion from being pushed onto them by government or overzealous evangelists...putting out things like that go over the line and they are doing exactly what they decry others for doing to them.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 10:20 am
As an added thought: it would serve everyone well to live by example, show others how they live their own lives through whatever faith they profess, explain their faith to a willing audience when asked to do so, and help to inform people willing to learn (and that goes for everyone). These sort of passive-aggressive attacks on other folks relgious beliefs do absolutely nothing to help them seem like less than a fringe group of people too wrapped up in their cause to see that they aren't helping anything...kind of like Peta, but for religious issues rather than animal issues.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 10:28 am
Not to assume anyone else's motivations or purposes, but I think perhaps "doing exactly what they decry others for doing to them" is the point. They want to be as "in your face" as they perceive some Christian displays to be. Live and let live is a fine motto but they feel that an awful lot of Christian symbolism, missionary work and evangelism is not working under the same premise, so they counter punch. It is disrespectful to many just as some of the Christian displays and protests are disrespectful to them. It is a vicious cycle and I sure see no way for it to end (in a free society). I think the only thing that keeps it from getting completely out of hand is the fact that our government maintains (as much as is possible) the separation between Church and State. If the government pushes, they (like any other marginalized group) will feel the need to push back.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 10:47 am
He who believes not in a supreme power or God, believes not in a hereafter. He who believes not in a hereafter, believes not in an accountability for this life. He who has no accountability in this life has no morals. Dont blame what I said on anyone else, it is not a quote from anywhere. I dont understand why any athiest is so bothered by my belief in God. I would rather hear someone say "God bless America" than hear "Good luck America". This is my first post but I feel I know most of you from Letters to the editor for many years.
Comment by Carl — December 2, 2008 @ 10:51 am
Oh no, Other John, you had to go there... Watching the PETA videos on needless animal cruelty changed me into a vegetarian (for a year now), so a receptive audience is out there and if a message/cause means enough to you, you will risk the ire of some to reach some.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 10:52 am
Sandi, I grew up in Hampton Roads near the Peta HQ there. For every one thing that they show that might actually be beneficial, they do about 3 stupid PR stunts designed solely to garner attention rather than further their cause. They passed out "Unhappy Meals" at local McDonalds with a manic-looking Ronald McDonald doll holding a bloody butcher knife and a bloody apron to kids, have protested using naked Peta members outside of circuses where kids have been present, have thrown paint and fake blood on people who wear furs, and have quietly supported the ALF/ELF terrorists who target car dealerships, construction sites, and meatpacking plants through arsons (extremely environmentally damaging), cutting of refrigerant lines (releasing harmful Freon, mind you), and other acts they have pereptrated. I have very little respect for peta because of those things. Not to mention that some of their members were caught dumping large numbers of dead animals in random dumpsters so they would not be caught with them. They are kooks, and their message of better animal treatment gets completely lost on most folks because of their antics.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 11:01 am
wait a second...weren't most of you saying just yesterday that it was fine for the government to make santa calls which clearly promotes some religions and not others?
You guys don't have a problem with the nativity scene and the christmas tree but you have a problem with the atheist sign. If a governmental building is going to put up decorations for one faith and another faith would like decorations to be put up for theirs they either need to allow it or not put up decorations at all. You guys who supported the santa calls but not the atheist sign are all just hypocrits.
Comment by HCS — December 2, 2008 @ 11:16 am
Hello and Welcome Carl, your statement was very profound. I too struggle with understanding non-believers but I fully understand that "free will" is about just that. I cannot fathom that anyone is frightened by any individual person's beliefs but organized religion has done some damage and has caused people to feel excluded, unloved, shunned etc. so I do see their perspective. I appreciate positive people and affirmation of good in them without knowing their motives or beliefs. I try hard to have an open (although admittedly very Liberal) mind. Hope you enjoy posting and can avoid the frustration of being misunderstood or judged.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Other John, while I am fully aware of PETA stunts and outlandish behavior, I also understand the desperation and passion they feel. I do not condone their extreme behavior any more than I do the abortion protesters who line Williamson Road with pictures of aborted fetuses for passing children to see or Fred Phelps and his "church" protesting at a gay person's funeral, or a Neo-Nazi march in the streets. I will not defend the tactics or say that kooks are not attracted or even encouraged to be outrageous (even dangerous and destructive) for all of those groups, I simply say, PETA worked for me.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 11:30 am
HCS, for me, the reason i have the problem with the sign is to me, it is not promoting the atheists beliefs so much as it is denegrating and attacking other people for having them. If the atheists had any sort of non-derogatory display they wanted to include, I'd be fine with the concept since it would be positively reflecting their beliefs (or lack thereof, whichever the case may be) in a similar light to having a Christmas tree, nativity, Menorah, or other religous symbol. I still don't like the idea of government sanctioning these displays...but if they are going to do it, it needs to be open to the established, organized, or otherwise recognized religions out there...or not done at all.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 11:32 am
I don't think these are atheists. Atheists don't celebrate the Solstice and they don't sit around thinking about religion. I think these are bitter Anti's who live merely to complain. They see joy in other's lives and look for ways to snuff it out. Most of their complaints about religion are lodged in paranoia where they believe that churches are filled with people just like them who live solely to conspire against them personally. They are the people who can tell you everything that happens in a church despite the fact they haven't darkened the door of one in decades.
Its not surprising that they demanded a chance to express themselves and then wasted it by making a fool of themselves, exhibiting one of the traits they condemn in others. They are the ones enslaved; enslaved to a hatred of something they don't really understand.
Besides, everyone knows that shopping is the reason for the season.
Comment by Henry — December 2, 2008 @ 11:35 am
I think I love you HCS!!
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 11:41 am
Sandi, as long as there are people out there such as those you mentioned, who manage to reach and affect a person to bring them to their side, they will continue those outrageous and hurtful/hateful acts because they know they work. If people simply ignored them and didn't give them the time of day, they would eventually dwindle and fade away. They may have good points to make or good information to show to otherwise uninformed folks...but at some point someone needs to say enough is enough. On a side note...it amazes me that some people will absoltelu condemn a group for using violence or hatred to get their point across...while simultaneously supporting another group who uses the same tactics because they agree with the larger message. Violence, hatred, and intolerance to obtain a desired result is not something that should be condoned because it tarnishes the results of that effort. Many of the greatest changes in our history have come through peaceful demonstrations and efforts to bring awareness to an issue and inform the public as to the problem. Those not only are very effective, but they win the hearts and minds of the people seeing it happen. Engaging in violence only serves to create violent reactions in others, and perpetuates the problem in most cases because neither side seems interested in the actual problem anymore, but rather in fighting those opposed to their POV.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 11:50 am
OJ - the thing is that while their quote "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." may sound hurtful to other religions, it is their belief system. It just so happens that their set of beliefs comes across as negative because it is against the majority (because most people believe in some sort of a religion) so their belief that religion is a crock is hurtful to religious folks. But in the same light, the nativity scene could be percieved as undermining the atheist folks because it is against their belief.
Again, the point is, if you WANT a governemental body or building to display decorations that are religious based then you have to be willing and accept the fact then ANY religion can have their decorations displayed in the same place...even if it does not coincide with your religious beliefs.
Comment by HCS — December 2, 2008 @ 11:52 am
perhaps it is offensive to the atheists to constantly have christians telling them that they are going to hell....
Comment by HCS — December 2, 2008 @ 11:56 am
I don't have a problem allowing anyone, including atheists, to put something in a holiday display that the town sponsors. I have a particular problem with this sign, though. This sign is derogatory and disrespectful. If they wanted to post a sign such as "We don't believe in God, but we hope every one enjoys a holiday season in their own way," that would be fine with me.
Comment by Joe (not the plumber) — December 2, 2008 @ 12:00 pm
OJ,
I don't think PETA's links to ELF are as strong as you're implying. They gave some money a few years back to support an ELF spokesman in a free speech case, which could support your earlier statement that they "quietly supported" these groups. But there's no evidence that I've seen that PETA has itself engaged in violent or illegal actions.
Comment by Dan Radmacher — December 2, 2008 @ 12:15 pm
Other John, I am not arguing in support of any violence or hurtful activities by any group (even the ones I agree with). I resisted PETA for many years, exactly because of the silly stunts you mentioned but the reality videos I saw were not staged protests and that is what swayed me that the needless cruelty inflicted by evil, inept, cruel, ignorant or sadistic (maybe all of the above) people on helpless animals is a disgrace to God and mankind and I am thankful to PETA for making it available. It was the push I needed to make a decision that I am comfortable with. That does not mean I condone/respect all of their actions any more than I condone/respect every woman's behavior because I am one, or every Democrat's behavior because I am one... I try to look at the big picture without condemning out of hand the whole. Again, I do not speak for PETA or any other group and I could certainly be wrong. I appreciate the discussion.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 2, 2008 @ 12:25 pm
I agree Dan...they have not themselves (at least the organization) perpetuated the acts I mentioned. However, growing up a couple miles from their HQ, the people in that area were more than thrilled to see what ELF/ALF were doing and made it known in the local news when they were interviewed. Now, like I said perhaps it was not organizational support so much as individual support, but they were Peta members speaking out supporting the acts overall intent and message...and no one from Peta went on TV to condemn the violence used in those cases, ever, from my recollection.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 12:43 pm
For Sandi #19, I have also seen the videos you've mentioned and been around a couple of hog and turkey farms, and I do not buy commercial meat because of it. I still eat meat though, but I buy it from sources I know to treat their animals far better than the large-scale commercial food industry sites. I only buy free-range, naturally raised, Halal meat if I can find it (it's not easy). I've watched some of the process and while it's still not something I could do personally, it's far more humane and less traumatizing than the commercial, mechanized plants that either shoot the animals or mecahnically feed them through robotic beheading contraptions.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 12:49 pm
That's the funny thing HCS. I was an atheist for years and I was never told by anyone that I was going to Hell. Granted, I did not go looking for that information either. I didn't go to the Baptist church or watch Christian TV or any such stuff. If someone had asked me to put up an atheist display for Christmas, I would have put up a Christmas Tree. Nothing says secular celebration like a purloined pagan symbol on a hijacked Christian holiday.
As a Christian, I celebrate Advent. Christmas is not a religious holiday for me.
Comment by Henry — December 2, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
Ok so all atheists have not been told they are going to hell. People have a problem with this atheist sign because it seems "mean" to all the religious folks. but as i said before, it is just their belief just the same as holy rollers believe that the only way to live a meaningful life is to be a follower of God.
Simple as this: if you are going to cry attack on christianity when someone is upset about a christian display on governmental property, don't get your panties in a bunch when an atheist gets theirs.
Comment by HCS — December 2, 2008 @ 2:47 pm
The Christian display does not attack people of other beliefs unlike the display put up by the political group. Why not put up a display that says "Celebrate Solstice"?
Instead the political group disguised itself as spokesman for atheists and put up a display saying that religions like Islam are a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds
Comment by Henry — December 2, 2008 @ 3:26 pm
that's interesting that you Henry picked out Islam of all the religions you could've picked from...but that's beside the point. You can pick at what was on their sign all you want and suggest less harsh things it could've said but it all comes back to this: if one group is allowed to be put on display on governmental grounds, so can another and it is just too bad if it doesn't agree with your beliefs. If it causes you too much pain to read that sign on a governmental building then ok, take it down but you better take down that nativity scene while your at it.
Comment by HCS — December 2, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
henry...they would not say celebrate solstice because they aren't pagan. Most solstice celebrations are about the re-birth of the sun god...which sort of goes against what an atheist believes (or doesn't believe...I get confused about this). But I agree with you. There is nothing inherently hurtful about a Christmas Tree, a Menorah, a statue of Vishnu, or any other religious symbol that I can think of. The quote is a direct slam of people of faith. While it may be what the athiests think, it does not portray their message positively at all and cannot be equated to a Christmas Tree in my mind. I am quite sure there would be a way to have a small sign with a short statement that outlined the general philosophy of an atheist that did not involve attacking people's belief in God...but they chose not to do that.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
Comment by Other John:
"Engaging in violence only serves to create violent reactions in others, and perpetuates the problem in most cases"
If there are any violent atheists or animal defenders, this certainly must be the reason for it.
Comment by Henry:
"Instead the political group disguised itself as spokesman for atheists and put up a display saying that religions like Islam are a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds"
FFRF is the country's largest spokesman for atheists & other dissenters. And of course, defending the rights of atheists is a political cause; that's the reason such organizations exist. To defend against the harm done by religions like Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. fundamentalisms.
Comment by Ed H — December 2, 2008 @ 4:19 pm
sure a nativity scene or tree does not hurt someone physically...and neither does the quote on the atheist sign. Perhaps someone of another religion would be hurt to see that christianity is displayed at the government building and not theirs...not hurt physically but hurt. So, in that instance the christianity and other religious symbols are hurtful to someone...unless their religion (or not religion, however you want to look at that one) is also displayed.
Don't get me wrong, perhaps that could've chosen a more positive quote for their sign but I don't think they should be criticised for having their beliefs displayed alongside others beliefs.
Comment by HCS — December 2, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
" While it may be what the athiests think, "
That's just it. FFRF is a political group. It does not speak for atheists. A Nativity scene is a Christian symbol. What this group did was no different from a political group taking advantage of a Christmas display to put out an anti-abortion display that has nothing to do with Christmas.
If the political group put out a sign that said "Islam is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds", what do you think the government would have done? Allowed it? I doubt that. I don't think the government should be allowing political groups to use holiday exhibits to express their opinions.
Comment by Henry — December 2, 2008 @ 4:55 pm
"He who believes not in a supreme power or God, believes not in a hereafter. He who believes not in a hereafter, believes not in an accountability for this life. He who has no accountability in this life has no morals."
WOW Carl! You should put that on a billboard! I hope I'm misreading/misunderstanding.
It's so comforting doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do because you know and feel it is the right thing to do instead of needing to be threatened by some supreme power into doing the right thing! It's unfortunate that some require morals and accountability be forced upon them and reiterated on a weekly basis. Mine come naturally, or from my upbringing that did not include religion. From my experience in this very christian country and region, my morals are also apparently much higher caliber than what is being forced upon all those folks every Sunday morning. I sleep very well and late Sunday morning knowing I've helped more than hurt almost every day of my life. Today, with your comment I'd say you need a refresher this weekend, you may have hurt someone.
And whatever happened to agnostic? You never hear that word anymore. Guess like everything these days else you gotta pick an extreme team. I refuse to claim to know all the answers to life's mysteries, and am not threatened by that which I do not yet know or understand (cept for maybe judgemental christians).
Comment by bobdobalena — December 2, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
But the difference is that the tree or nativity does not imply a derogatory attack on another religion (if it is, please explain because I would love to hear it)...it is simply a positive symbol of Christianity (which I am not, btw). The sign, rather than a simple positive statement of atheism, is instead a derogatory attack on all religion...hence the difference.
Comment by Other John — December 2, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
Carl,
I think that most atheists don't care one way or the other what your beliefs are. As for your statement, I have encountered a lot of people of the highest morality and integrity who did not believe in God. Conversely, there are many more than a few examples of people who profess to a belief in God who don't seem to hold themselves accountable and who are definitely not of good moral fiber.
I don't try to lead a moral life because of a fear of punishment in the afterlife, but because I believe it is the right thing to do and because I try to treat others as I want to be treated.
Joe (ntp)
Comment by Joe(not the plumber) — December 2, 2008 @ 6:37 pm
Henry: like you (and everyone else in the world) I was born an Atheist. Like you, I was at some time indoctrinated with the belief most prevalent in my family (Christianity, and specifically Episcopalian in my case). However, after years of studying the issues and evidences, I have come to the conclusion that there probably is no god at all, and Judea-Christian god definitely does not exist.
As for the FfRFs message, I see a positive statement; one that says you do not have to let your life be ruled by superstitions and myths. You can be a good, ethical, and moral person without resorting to the ignorant writings of ancient, superstitious goat-herders.
I'm sorry that those of you who continue to belief these fairy-tales are hurt by the message, but (as pointed out by HCS) if you want your messages in the public square, you have to accept all messages, even those that contradict your own.
Your religious belief doesn't bother me, but just as you feel comfortable with pro-religious statements being made in public, I feel comfortable with pro-atheist statements made in public.
Comment by Rob Miles — December 3, 2008 @ 7:45 am
Thank you Rob.
Comment by HCS — December 3, 2008 @ 8:17 am
"Your religious belief doesn't bother me"
Obviously, you didn't read your own post. It's clear that it bothers you. Otherwise, you wouldn't think about it. Your dismissal of books like the Quoran as " ignorant writings of ancient, superstitious goat-herders" is proof that you fixate on the beliefs of others and seek to dismiss them because you don't believe them. "It can't be true because I don't believe it". It's much like the people who say we never landed on the moon. Their mind cannot stretch beyond their own experiences. Instead of freeing their mind, they build palisades to keep things like God out.
Some people stand on the tracks and refuse to believe in trains. But I found it takes a lot of effort to ignore the tracks.
Comment by Henry — December 3, 2008 @ 8:46 am
Rob, you make some valid points (as have others). I bow to you and HCS for your knowledge and articulation. As I see it, the biggest 'problem' with the whole issue of religion is the "cry wolf" syndrome. If you see attacks and offense EVERYWHERE, soon people quit listening and stop trying to see you as anything but a whiner. People of faith have every right to stick to there beliefs and they should accept that others do as well and stop the 'pity party' tactics and rhetoric. I absolutely believe in God but I also know enough about history and mankind to acknowledge that I do not know everything and cannot know everything and I accept that ignorance. I do my level best not to condemn others for their belief or non-belief, but I have no such compunction when they come 'in my face' with their condemnation. When a real "crack down" on religion comes, will we even recognize it after all the religious hate rhetoric?
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 3, 2008 @ 8:47 am
"Instead of freeing their mind, they build palisades to keep things like God out."
Clearly you can't expand your mind Henry to accept that there are beliefs out there that differ from your own. You are fine with things that you agree with to be displayed but as soon as it contridicts what you believe you cry for it to be removed and you belittle that belief with your statements. Perhaps they are the ones who have freed their mind...who are you to say if they have or haven't?
Comment by HCS — December 3, 2008 @ 9:03 am
Maybe God is a giant computer, we're on a floppy disk, and we need to be reformatted. Then again there's also the folks who believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't have a problem with any religion or the lack thereof, provided the practitioners of them don't denegrate what others believe. That goes for anyone and everyone, no exceptions. I think if people spent more time practising their beliefs rather than trying to prosteletize to whomever they run across or demean other belief systems, the world would be a better place.
Comment by Other John — December 3, 2008 @ 9:27 am
It's been interesting to read all of the posts on this topic. Many say that discussions of religion and politics should always be off-limits but they do indeed have a place. For me, religion has always been a very personal thing...not something that I choose to wear on my sleeve, if you will. Instead, maybe like a child, I continue to be in wonder of the beauty of a new fallen snow, the power of a sudden thunderstorm and the calm that seems to follow.
I marvel at the human body and the "machinery" of life that it encompasses; the spirit that the body encapsulates and the drive with which a person puts one foot in front of the other day after day. I get angry at death (especially at this time of year having lost both parents and a sibling at Christmas). Why must such a wonderful machine break down?
On a daily basis, each and everyone of us must look introspectively at those things that take us from one day to the next. Religion in all shapes and forms can do that. I don't believe that one religion is necessarily better than another. I don't believe that one religion has to be trumpeted over another nor should they be.
At the end of the day, you as an individual should look inward at the things that make your heart warm, your children smile and give you the ability to reach out to a fellow human being with love, dignity, care and respect...all those things that you yourself want and need.
Simple minded on my part? Of course...but that's what gets me through the day.
Comment by Will — December 3, 2008 @ 9:57 am
I agree with your statements. Whatever a person's religion is, whether it is in agreement with my beliefs or not I think it is great that it works for you because quite frankly, it is none of my business what any other individual believes.
In that same light, who cares if there is a sign put up that contradicts your religion? You know they are out there and if you are satisfied with your beliefs being expressed you should be satisfied with someone elses's beliefs being expressed. If you are truly satisfied with your belief and feel strong in it then the fact that a contradicting belief has been expressed shouldn't threaten you to the point of you demanding that it should be taken down while leaving symbols of your belief system standing.
Comment by HCS — December 3, 2008 @ 10:05 am
Will, not simple minded at all. High minded and harder to do than it seems, yes. I enjoyed your post and the sentiments behind it and I agree with it. To each their own but try to get along and still respect each other. Finding offense is easy but not productive or enlightening. We have the power to change the dialog, some people just don't want to. It is easier to tear down than build, easier to criticize (anonymous makes it even easier) than praise, and easier to hate than to love. I love a good mix it up, in an honest discussion, I always learn something, but I detest incivility, even as I fall into responding to it. It is a struggle but one worth undertaking because if we cannot discuss it, we cannot understand it.
Comment by Sandi Saunders — December 3, 2008 @ 10:11 am
Someone much smarter than me once said "Everyone believes in something, even if its nothing". I will have great respect for your beliefs, whatever they are. As for your actions, that's another matter. I respect the teachings of Islam and I condemn flying planes into buildings for what was called "a holy war". I see the "sign" as a act of condemnation not a sign of respect for anothers belief. A gnat or fruitfly is about the lower limit of our vision and yet the ameoba is even smaller. Fifty years + ago I learned that the orders of all animals are devided into nine Phylums. The ameoba is the lowest and humans are the highest as we know them. Phylum nine is the only animal capible of manufacturing products to change his environment. Suppose there is a phylum ten or eleven or maybe we are a few bytes on a floppy or an atom in some giants chair. One thing for sure is that life as we know it will end and we will proceed to the next, even if it is nothing. As inhabitants of the same planet, we are duty bound to leave this world as good as we found it and in no way contribute to its destriction. As I previously said "don't blame others for what I have said".
Comment by Carl — December 3, 2008 @ 11:36 am
Henry: no, your belief (or anyone else's) doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the insistence of some that their beliefs be held higher than anyone else's; that their beliefs be officially condoned by the government, excluding all others.
No, I don't respect religious beliefs, not in the least. I respect your right to hold them, but the beliefs themselves are just plain silly. I marvel how in this day and age people who are seemingly intelligent enough to see the BS in other aspects of life still cling to outdated, superstitious myths.
I strongly suspect that all but a very few people, deep down, know that their beliefs are wrong, and even childish, but it's comforting to them to continue to play the game. Old habits are hard to break, but I think we can look around and see the erosion of many of the superstitions. I count that as a good thing.
Now some of you believers will be offended by the above, and for that I truly apologize. I don't say it because I want to offend you; I say it because it's true (in my estimation). I have no desire to engage in countless battles with believers over this and that. But we've seen what happens when we let "little" things slide; the Christians (in this country) get an inch, they take a mile and post crosses every 15 feet.
When allowed official government unfettered, unchallenged access to express their point of view about religion, (for instance, prayers in the schools) Christians turn that into "tradition of strong, Christian heritage in this country." When non-believers have finally had enough and refuse to be marginalized further, we're accused of being un-American. When we finally win some hard-fought battle and have the Constitution recognized and followed, we're cry-babies and meanies for attacking your religion.
The truth is I kind of wish the FfRF had picked a better sign to place there in Washington. "Imagine no Religion" has been effective in some billboard ads they've run. "Don't believe in God? You're not alone." is another one of theirs that I like. Even the one that was in Great Britain, on the buses "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life!" would have been a good one. But I'm glad they put something up.
In most big cities you can't swing a dead cat without hitting some holier-than-thou Christian message. I've seen billboards asking "Why do Atheists hate America?" (http://www.ingodwetrustusa.org/atheists.html) I should be apologetic about what the FfRF said after that? I think not. We Atheists have a long way to go to give negative as good as we get.
Comment by Rob Miles — December 3, 2008 @ 3:08 pm